Heavy hitters see downtown stadium as linchpin

[jiveturkey]

I think that this will make it easier to accomodate a new Arrowhead. A dowtown stadium would also be a lot more fun IMO.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/

With Bistate II defeated, KC business leaders spot an opening

By KEVIN COLLISON

The Kansas City Star


The quest for a downtown ballpark is on, with the Downtown Council expected to take the first swing today and City Manager Wayne Cauthen on deck.

Cauthen was a top city official in Denver during the 1990s and saw how downtown redevelopment benefited from the construction of Coors Field. Cauthen said this week in an interview that the momentum of the current building boom in downtown Kansas City should lead people to believe similar results could be achieved here.

“I've seen it happen before,” Cauthen said. “We here in Kansas City are getting ready to experience a renaissance, and I think things tend to mushroom. When people see this and that can-do attitude that we have in the city, people will say, ‘Gosh, that's a no-brainer.' ”

The Downtown Council, an organization of influential business and property owners, plans to officially announce its support for a ballpark at its annual luncheon today at the Kansas City Marriott Downtown. The group commissioned a $100,000 downtown ballpark feasibility study earlier this year, but kept it under wraps at the request of supporters of the Bistate II initiative.

Bistate II would have financed extensive renovations of Kauffman and Arrowhead stadiums to keep the Royals and Chiefs there under newly extended leases, but voters rejected it this month.

“Now, the Downtown Council believes that our greater community should take some time to consider other alternatives, including the possibility of a new downtown baseball park for the Kansas City Royals,” the organization said in a news release.

The group said it expected to have a full-fledged proposal that includes financing options ready to present to the Royals and the public sometime next month.

“At that time, more economic information about the concept will be made available to the public for an open community discussion of the idea,” the group said.

The endeavor faces formidable obstacles, among them: determining a politically palatable way to finance the estimated $330 million cost, persuading Jackson County to relinquish its decades-long grip on the Royals at Truman Sports Complex and convincing Royals owner David Glass it's the right move for his club over the long term.

Backers are confident they'll be able to find solutions to all those problems. They're also convinced that moving the Royals would not only be good for downtown economic development but for the team's financial future as well.

“When you look at the best interests of the ball team, it's selling tickets,” said Andi Udris, president and CEO of the Economic Development Corp. of Kansas City. “Who better to sell more tickets than downtown businesses? Employees and clients can finish their day, have dinner and go to a ballgame to cap it off.”

Glass, who was in Southern California on business, said in a telephone interview that the new initiative had caught him off-guard.

“I'm totally out of the loop on this,” he said. “But I think if there was a real plan to be considered that I would have heard about it.”

Mike Gorris, senior vice president for business operations for the Royals, said he had had discussions with downtown ballpark supporters last summer but was unaware of the renewed effort.

“Our focus has been on bistate,” Gorris said. “Now, our focus is on the master plan to determine an exact schedule of work to be done on Kauffman Stadium.”

The Downtown Council said its research had found downtown ballparks generally generate better weekday attendance than do outlying ballparks and are more attractive to corporate suite owners and corporate season ticket holders.

“These are the factors why 15 of 17 new downtown baseball parks since 1990 have been constructed as part of downtown revitalization,” the organization said.

While no potential sites are expected to be mentioned today, two locations were studied by Downtown Council consultants earlier this year. One was at the north end of the Crossroads area, around 16th and Main streets, and the other was on the north edge of the central business district, around Seventh and Wyandotte streets.

The Crossroads location already is running into opposition from some property owners in the area.

Also the Urban Society of Kansas City, a new group formed to advocate better urban planning and design in the city, wants to participate in the ballpark discussion. It is proposing to examine five potential downtown sites and make recommendations to the city.

Besides the two sites that have been studied, the Urban Society of Kansas City plans to examine potential sites at Washington Park, across from Crown Center; a site southeast of Ilus W. Davis Park on the east side of the downtown loop; and a site in the 18th and Vine area.

In a letter to Kansas City Council members, David E. Scott, the president of the Urban Society of Kansas City, said his group wanted to ensure an unbiased and public process for reviewing the concept.

“In so doing, we hope to enrich the discussion, broaden community participation and increase support for any ultimate direction taken by the city on this matter,” he wrote.

Cauthen said a crucial question confronting supporters is financing. That means deciding whether the project would be something the city could attempt on its own or whether it would have to partner with Jackson County or, perhaps, the entire metropolitan area.

The Downtown Council statement referred to the ballpark initiative as being something the “greater community” should consider, but it didn't offer specifics.

“The things I want to deal with right now are looking at the structure, what are the best taxes for us to deal with and how much of the commitment should be public versus private,” Cauthen said.

A prime potential revenue source discussed earlier this year was increasing the cigarette tax, he said, but that idea may have to be reviewed in light of the current push to ban smoking in bars and restaurants in Kansas City.

The city manager did say that if other metropolitan communities were asked to help finance a downtown ballpark, it would be appropriate for the Jackson County Sports Complex Authority to expand its board.

“We all talk about one Kansas City and regionalization,” he said.

“It's going to be important for all of us to work together as one region to make sure these amenities stay in this area.”

The consultants hired by the Downtown Council earlier this year were the Barrett Sports Group LLC of Los Angeles and Jacobs, Chase Frick, Kleinkopf & Kelly LLC, a Denver law firm.

Their credentials include work on Coors Field and on Petco Field, the new downtown ballpark in San Diego.

Cauthen also said that Rick Horrow, a national expert who was working with the city on the Sprint Center downtown arena project, also would be asked to review the proposal.

Kansas City Councilman John Fairfield, a strong supporter of downtown baseball, thinks a plan should be ready in short order to present to the public.

“I've been working with a number of individuals, fine-tuning the numbers,” he said. “We need a plan that's practical, easy for the public to understand and one we can take to the Royals. That all has to happen pretty quickly.”

As to when downtown ballpark advocates plan to talk to Glass, Cauthen said only when they're satisfied they have a strong case.

“We have to get our proposal together, get our act together … and have that meeting with Mr. Glass to tell him these are our intentions and hope there's back and forth with him.”

[ROYC75]

Say No to Downtown....

Say yes to TSC....

Keep what we have, upgrade it.

[teedubya]

i think it would save the Royals financially. Plus increase attendance by 5000-7000 per game. They would have to implement many of the same features, like the Royals Scoreboards, and some newly designed bad ass fountains, that is all I care about.

[beavis]

i think it would save the Royals financially. Plus increase attendance by 5000-7000 per game. They would have to implement many of the same features, like the Royals Scoreboards, and some newly designed bad ass fountains, that is all I care about.
Ditto...

I figured this was coming, but I didn't think it'd be this quick. I'm all for it, if it's done right this time.

[teedubya]

Ditto...

I figured this was coming, but I didn't think it'd be this quick. I'm all for it, if it's done right this time.


something near some good buildings, so you could be in the building and catch some of the game.

The cityscape as teh background would be mega...

[KCN]

Royals definitely belong downtown. Washington park or the southeast loop is best. With the upcoming projects, the southern loop to crown center corridor will be so dramatically different in as few as three years that no one will recognize it any more. A downtown stadium would be the missing piece.

There are too many benefits to a downtown stadium to list. For starters, a downtown stadium would be within walking distance of what is 10,000 people now, probably 30,000 by the end of this decade. Not to mention all the hotels within walking distance. For those who don't live or work downtown, the experience of going to a game would still be much improved. Instead of walking through a vast parking lot to the stadium, you'll be parking in a downtown garage, walking by street vendors, bars/restaurants, shops and street performers. All of these things are coming with the new power & light district as well as the budding arts district in the crossroads. After the game you can go to a bar and not have to get in your car. If the momentum continues, it is possible that light rail will be put back on the table (and talk of Bi State III for this purpose is already brewing). With several major attractions downtown this time, mass transit will actually make sense.

This all sounds like fairy tale to a Kansas Citian, but it's all happening. Ground has already broken for the power and light district. The hideous parking lots and run down buildings of the south loop are being torn down as we speak, to be replaced with bars, restaurants, shops and apartments. KC hasn't seen this momentum downtown in any of our lifetimes, and it'd be silly to not take advantage of it w/ a downtown stadium.

[KCN]

As for Arrowhead, it should be kept where it is, or at least a place where a very large parking lot could be built.

[Baby Lee]

It'd be nice to already have light rail in place.

[kc rush]

The Downtown Council, an organization of influential business and property owners, plans to officially announce its support for a ballpark at its annual luncheon today at the Kansas City Marriott Downtown. The group commissioned a $100,000 downtown ballpark feasibility study earlier this year, but kept it under wraps at the request of supporters of the Bistate II initiative.

...

Glass, who was in Southern California on business, said in a telephone interview that the new initiative had caught him off-guard.

“I'm totally out of the loop on this,” he said. “But I think if there was a real plan to be considered that I would have heard about it.”



Wasn't Glass supposed to be a big part of BS2, yet he knows nothing of this study that the BS people asked to keep quiet.

God love absentee owners, they've got the pulse of Kansas City and sure are intent on bringing a championship to this town (f*cking soccer doesn't count). I wish that one of the owners of our two major franchises had as much passion about these things as we seem to.

[Brando]

Could they build it by the Boulevard Brewery and have the fountains spit Boulevard? I would go to swim in and drink from the fountains.
Oh yeah..the skyline in the background would be tits too. Especially from the Crossroads location that they mentioned.

[KCN]

The cityscape as teh background would be mega...


Here's a very rough photoshop I did w/ photos of mine from Kauffman overlaid onto the view from Washington park. Scales are off but it gives a rough idea.

[Brando]

It'd be nice to already have light rail in place.

Nice...I was thinking the same thing. Maybe this would help that whole deal out.

[kc rush]

It'd be nice to already have light rail in place.

Clay Chastain is that you?

Actually, with all of the redevelopment going on in downtown, light rail makes more sense.

[teedubya]

so KCN are you on the development council or some shit? You were pretty vocal about Enterprise and the dowtown arena.

that pic is a great visualization... imagine the marriot lights in the background, that would be unreal. they just need to move the current kauffman, THERE... if there is adequate nearby parking. just pick it up with a trailer and head down 1-70 to 1-35 south... probably need a couple WIDE LOAD signs also...

[BigRedChief]

Attendece in baseball is just a small part of the overall budget. You put another milliion fans in the seats with a new downtown baseball stadium if will only provide 5-6 million in extra profits. With other teams over 100 million in payroll it won't make a dent in the talent on the field.

New suite revenue from the stadium could pull in 10-12 million.

Can you imagine an entertainment district with an ESPNZone, Hard Rock Cafe etc in between an arena and downtown ball park? Pretty cool huh?

Why build new at Arrowhead? Update and refurbish. Do exactly what the Chiefs wanted in Bi-State. Expand the concourses. Add Bathrooms. Add Suites. But my idea still stands on its own after B-State 2 failed. Build a downtown baseball stadium and give th eTruman Complex to Lamar and let him do with it what he wants. He is a businessman. We will give him a complex worth millions. I think he would go for the deal.

[jiveturkey]

Why build new at Arrowhead? Update and refurbish. Do exactly what the Chiefs wanted in Bi-State. Expand the concourses. Add Bathrooms. Add Suites. But my idea still stands on its own after B-State 2 failed. Build a downtown baseball stadium and give th eTruman Complex to Lamar and let him do with it what he wants. He is a businessman. We will give him a complex worth millions. I think he would go for the deal.

I think that rebuilding is the only way to get a Super Bowl here and that will make additional use of the ESPNZone and the Hard Rock that you mentioned. The parties will be downtown and the game will be in the new 80,000 seat retractable roof stadium.

The additional income from state of the art suites will allow us to better compete in the signing bonus world.

[Brando]

Clay Chastain is that you?

Actually, with all of the redevelopment going on in downtown, light rail makes more sense.

Set up Park and Ride stops in JOCO, the Dot, Clay County, East Jackson, and somewhere south on State Line. Have the rail run directly to the redeveloped area and run express bus service to different parts of downtown. Think of the traffic that could be alleviated on a regular workday.

[kc rush]

Set up Park and Ride stops in JOCO, the Dot, Clay County, East Jackson, and somewhere south on State Line. Have the rail run directly to the redeveloped area and run express bus service to different parts of downtown. Think of the traffic that could be alleviated on a regular workday.


I was talking about that with my wife a couple of weeks ago. Make Union Station the hub and run the line through downtown, the Plaza, to Arrowhead, KCI, and other major points of interest. Set up park and ride locations in the burbs and also have bus stops in neighborhoods that will take you to the park and ride station.

[teedubya]

Set up Park and Ride stops in JOCO, the Dot, Clay County, East Jackson, and somewhere south on State Line. Have the rail run directly to the redeveloped area and run express bus service to different parts of downtown. Think of the traffic that could be alleviated on a regular workday.


make the central hub... UNION STATION... uh... what a concept. People in KC typically lack vision though.

anyway. that would own.

I like ARROWHEAD, AS IS....with state of the art advancements...

The downtown ballpark...would need Kauffman quirky flavor. It should keep the jumbotron and the large Scoreboard.... save some cash that way.

[jcroft]

This is all so exciting. It does still feel like a fairy tale, but if this stuff really happens...wow.

I've been to Salt lake City a few times on business in the alst couple of years and I like the way their light rail system works. Basically, it's free within a specified downtown area. You pay if you want to go out to the burbs. I like the idea of a "free zone" downtown.

[KCN]

so KCN are you on the development council or some shit? You were pretty vocal about Enterprise and the dowtown arena.


Heh, nah but you can tell I get pretty excited about the idea of Kansas City becoming a real city again.

Some of us on a KC development forum were throwing out this idea at random last year (hence my drawing), and to actually see it on the front page of the KC Star is pretty exciting.

[ChiTown]

A nice, intimate 30-32K seat downtown stadium would be awesome. It's one of the best ideas to save a fading organization like the Royals. I love the K, but I love the Royals more. This Organization needs a massive face lift.

[Brando]

Heh, nah but you can tell I get pretty excited about the idea of Kansas City becoming a real city again.

Some of us on a KC development forum were throwing out this idea at random last year (hence my drawing), and to actually see it on the front page of the KC Star is pretty exciting.

Here Here! :toast:

[teedubya]

when was it on the front cover of KC Star?

[WakkaDakka]

Can you imagine an entertainment district with an ESPNZone, Hard Rock Cafe etc in between an arena and downtown ball park? Pretty cool huh?

This is an idea a lot of people would get behind! :clap:

[beavis]

Here's a very rough photoshop I did w/ photos of mine from Kauffman overlaid onto the view from Washington park. Scales are off but it gives a rough idea.
For a rough job that is pimp. I love the K, but that would just be awesome.

[WakkaDakka]

Make Union Station the hub and run the line through downtown, the Plaza, to Arrowhead, KCI, and other major points of interest. Set up park and ride locations in the burbs and also have bus stops in neighborhoods that will take you to the park and ride station.

I'd vote for that idea! :thumb:

[KCN]

when was it on the front cover of KC Star?

Today. Well I don't get the KC star but I'm assuming today's front page is this:
http://www.kansascity.com/multimedia/kansascity/archive/FRIDAY.pdf

[jiveturkey]

I'd vote for that idea! :thumb:There are still a lot of stupid locals that are going to vote against everything.

I certainly hope that they don't try and include JoCo. I'm surrounded by selfish idiots over here.

[teedubya]

a walt disney museum is set to open in the near future at Walt Disneys original Downtown KC workplace where "Mortimer teh Mouse" inspired Mickey and the Empire.

[Brando]

This is pretty cool too
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/business/10111989.htm

[Brock]

Pro sports is turning into an extortion racket. This is going to get old quick.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Here's a very rough photoshop I did w/ photos of mine from Kauffman overlaid onto the view from Washington park. Scales are off but it gives a rough idea.
That's awesome...but I'm sure they're not gonna build a replica. I love Kauffman Stadium and I'd hate seeing them play somewhere else.... unless it's really, really cool.....then I might change my mind. I'd like to see some mock-ups.

[KCN]

Pro sports is turning into an extortion racket. This is going to get old quick.

That's why BSII was rightfully voted down. Something needs to be done at some point though.

[KCN]

That's awesome...but I'm sure they're not gonna build a replica. I love Kauffman Stadium and I'd hate seeing them play somewhere else.... unless it's really, really cool.....then I might change my mind. I'd like to see some mock-ups.

If a cookie-cutter stadium gets proposed for downtown I would not support it. However, given the way the arena designs clearly showed an attempt to incorporate KC concepts (fountains, glass etc)....I am hopeful a proposed downtown stadium would involve the same designs we love about the K...the open outfield and fountains for starters (and I think fountains in any KC venue is a given). Except instead of facing a highway, a radio tower and the Fellowship of Christian Athletes building...we possibly face Bartle Hall, a bustling entertainment district, a world war I monument and/or the tallest building in Missouri.

[Bearcat]

I was talking about that with my wife a couple of weeks ago. Make Union Station the hub and run the line through downtown, the Plaza, to Arrowhead, KCI, and other major points of interest. Set up park and ride locations in the burbs and also have bus stops in neighborhoods that will take you to the park and ride station.
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/business/10073638.htm

Buses to the MAX

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Metro Area Express to offer new stations, rapid transit in KC
http://www.kansascity.com/images/common/spacer.gif
By KEVIN COLLISON
http://www.kansascity.com/images/common/spacer.gif
Columnist

http://www.kansascity.com/images/common/spacer.gif

Anyone interested in checking out what's next for Kansas City mass transit should stop by the Area Transportation Authority's offices at 1200 E. 18th St.

There, across from the authority's front entrance, is a prototype of the new Metro Area Express, or MAX, station. By July, 19 stations are expected to be operating along the route of the area's first bus rapid transit line. It will run from Waldo to the River Market, mostly along Main Street, and connect many of the major destinations in the area the mayor has labeled River Crown Plaza.

Bus rapid transit was the fallback technology embraced by the ATA after voters turned down a billion-dollar light-rail proposal in 2001. The reasoning was that a BRT system could offer similar service at a much lower cost and, if people liked it enough, pave the way for another go at light rail someday.

The key to BRT's success was to convince prospective riders this was not a slow, stop-and-go experience by using a flashier vehicle and by accelerating its timetable by limiting the number of stops, giving it a special lane and pre-empting traffic signals so it could whiz through busy intersections.

A side benefit was to encourage development along the transit route near those strategically located stations.

Because of financial concerns, however, the ATA is struggling to pursue even a light alternative to light rail.

“BRT is the poor man's version of light rail,” said Ron McLinden, a board member of the Regional Transit Alliance, an advocacy organization. “Some people might speculate we're getting the poor man's version of BRT.”

The MAX station doesn't convey a sense of something revolutionary for mass transit.

While the stainless steel and plexiglass enclosure is attractive, it doesn't appear all that different from a standard bus shelter. It's about 20 feet long, enclosed on three sides, features a single wood bench and, at this point, has a semitransparent roof that won't offer much shade.
More eye-catching and forward-looking is the 30-foot pylon next to it. It prominently identifies the stop and the kiosk at its base and displays the MAX route, a map of the adjoining neighborhood and an electronic display that informs riders when the next bus is scheduled to arrive.
However, it appears the ATA has strayed from its original intent of limiting the number of BRT stops and spacing them about one-half mile apart. Between the University of Missouri-Kansas City and 43rd and Main Streets, near St. Luke's Hospital, there are five stops in about one mile.

The route settles into having stations a half-mile apart on Main between 43rd Street and 31st Street, but then the pace slows again with a station at 29th and Main near the new Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City, and two stops a block apart at Pershing Road and Grand Avenue by Crown Center and Pershing and Main by Union Station.
Once it gets to the Loop, MAX has seven stops as it winds past Bartle Hall, the new arena, City Hall and the federal courthouse before crossing into the River Market, where it ends at Third Street and Grand Boulevard.

McLinden and Kite Singleton, another Transit Alliance board member, think the Loop route adds several minutes and makes it less user-friendly. If MAX stayed on Main, it would still bring people two blocks away from Bartle Hall and the new arena, and also connect with downtown's biggest transit center at 10th and Main.

Mark E. Huffer, ATA general manager, insists that MAX will be able to achieve its goal of transporting a rider from the Plaza to the new arena at 14th Street and Grand in 17 or 18 minutes.

“About all these stops will be where you want to be, and with signal pre-emption and a reserved lane, it will be time-competitive with the automobile,” he said.

MAX buses will run nine to 10 minutes apart during peak times and drop off in the evenings to every 20 minutes, although that can change for special events.

Huffer said the ATA chose the station design because it fit within the sidewalk space available to the authority. The stations will be illuminated.

Singleton thinks the authority bowed to demands from powerful interests who could not accept being skipped by MAX. He thinks MAX could trim its twists when it arrives in the downtown core because the ATA plans to launch a circulator bus that will feed it riders from throughout the Loop.

In other matters, the developer of the Wallstreet Tower condominium project is reporting he is close to lining up enough reservations to begin renovating in earnest the 20-story building at 11th and Walnut Streets. Jason Townsend said that 74 reservations had been signed and that 84 was his goal before proceeding with construction.

A kickoff party last week drew a good crowd, including Mayor Kay Barnes and other city officials.

[Logical]

That's why BSII was rightfully voted down. Something needs to be done at some point though.

KC already is unable to compete financially in MLB and a new ballpark is not going to change that. What makes clubs financially solvent in MLB is vast sums of regional TV and Radio money, something KC will never ever compete in.

Building a new stadium would just be throwing away good money for no reason.

[kc rush]

KC already is unable to compete financially in MLB and a new ballpark is not going to change that. What makes clubs financially solvent in MLB is vast sums of regional TV and Radio money, something KC will never ever compete in.

Building a new stadium would just be throwing away good money for no reason.

A new stadium would have a small affect on revenue streams to the Royals through a larger number of suites and season ticket sales. You are correct that it pales in comparison to revenue generated through media which is an inequity that baseball faces but seems intent on fixing. The luxury tax system agreed upon during the last collective bargaining agreement was the first (small) step toward true revenue sharing. It sounds like baseball owners will try and close the gap even further when negotiations for the next cba take place (2-3 years I think). Until then the Royals will need to scrape dollars together wherever they can.

Like it or not, the Royals will need a new stadium in the near future. A downtown stadium will not only lock the team to the city, but it should continue to spawn downtown redevelopment. Having a major league franchise and a vibrant downtown is attractive to companies looking to re-locate. Part of KC's problem is that they have lost many businesses looking for greener pastures, when these companies go the city loses part of its tax base. Losing corporate taxes puts additional strain on the citizens as they need to pay the taxes to keep the infrastructure alive.

Building a new stadium for the Royals may not benefit the team as much as we hope, but it should help the city, and help keep the team in town until MLB fixes its problems.

[Calcountry]

i think it would save the Royals financially. Plus increase attendance by 5000-7000 per game. They would have to implement many of the same features, like the Royals Scoreboards, and some newly designed bad ass fountains, that is all I care about.
They might try putting a better product on the field, that would increase attendance.

[Logical]

A new stadium would have a small affect on revenue streams to the Royals through a larger number of suites and season ticket sales. You are correct that it pales in comparison to revenue generated through media which is an inequity that baseball faces but seems intent on fixing. The luxury tax system agreed upon during the last collective bargaining agreement was the first (small) step toward true revenue sharing. It sounds like baseball owners will try and close the gap even further when negotiations for the next cba take place (2-3 years I think). Until then the Royals will need to scrape dollars together wherever they can.

Like it or not, the Royals will need a new stadium in the near future. A downtown stadium will not only lock the team to the city, but it should continue to spawn downtown redevelopment. Having a major league franchise and a vibrant downtown is attractive to companies looking to re-locate. Part of KC's problem is that they have lost many businesses looking for greener pastures, when these companies go the city loses part of its tax base. Losing corporate taxes puts additional strain on the citizens as they need to pay the taxes to keep the infrastructure alive.

Building a new stadium for the Royals may not benefit the team as much as we hope, but it should help the city, and help keep the team in town until MLB fixes its problems.


ROFL baseball will never fix its problems because it only takes 4 or maybe 5 owners to block any initiative for change. The big money owners will always block the changes and keep all the revenue. The luxury tax is a pitance for the Yankees, Cubs, Red Sox, Braves, Dodgers etc. You are dreaming if you actually believe MLB will ever be fixed. Mark my words if a downtown stadium is built in KC after the first year attendance will plummet due to inadequate highway infrastructure and parking problems. KC is a car city, it will not change in our lifetimes.

[Brando]

They might try putting a better product on the field, that would increase attendance.
There is only so much that they can do with the budget they have.
They tried to put a better product out last year but it didn't happen.
I know that I would be a lot more likely to go to a weeknight game downtown.

[KCN]

Mark my words if a downtown stadium is built in KC after the first year attendance will plummet due to inadequate highway infrastructure and parking problems. KC is a car city, it will not change in our lifetimes.

Downtown handles thousands of commuters every day just fine (relative to other cities). As if highway infrastructure is any better near TSC? It's not as if people zip on out of that parking lot....we sit there forever trying to get out. A downtown location would scatter parking among several existing and soon-to-be built garages in the area. Front page of today's star is talking about all the new garages coming to the south loop area with thousands of new spaces. On top of that, a downtown location will give fans the option of sticking around after the game so that not everyone has to leave at the exact same time.

[KCN]

If the Royals were to leave TSC, I'd find myself starting to be open to the idea of razing Kauffman and building a new Arrowhead there.

Either that or give the Wizards a home of their own.

[Brando]

F*ck a Super Bowl. That would require a roof. No indoor football. Booo!

I think that Neil Smith is supposed to be working on an Arena Football team for the new Arena.

[Logical]

Isn't the limit set so high that it's currently only a pittance for the Yankees?

I am not sure, I thought I remember that the Red Sox had to pay some as well.

[KCN]

Those Kansas folks want somethin'... let 'em have a soccer only stadium.

I'm not a big soccer fan or anything... but, I think their field is slightly different than a baseball field.

Right I meant if Kauffman were to be razed, to build one there.

I'm cool w/ a Kansas location too. But it would be nice to get them out of Arrowhead wherever they go. I've been to a several wizards games, including one w/ record breaking attendance, and a significant crowd still seems tiny when dwarfed by that huge empty stadium.

[Logical]

Downtown handles thousands of commuters every day just fine (relative to other cities). As if highway infrastructure is any better near TSC? It's not as if people zip on out of that parking lot....we sit there forever trying to get out. A downtown location would scatter parking among several existing and soon-to-be built garages in the area. Front page of today's star is talking about all the new garages coming to the south loop area with thousands of new spaces. On top of that, a downtown location will give fans the option of sticking around after the game so that not everyone has to leave at the exact same time.


If I recall correctly and it has been a while parking for the Royals is like 5 or 6 bucks. When that goes downtown it will be between 12 and 20 like happened here in San Diego. You will see how much worse it is to get in and out of than TSC if they ever move downtown.

[KCN]

Oh, gotcha. I've seen talk on here before of converting the K to a soccer stadium... which just doesn't work in my brain. (Then again... I don't work for HOK, so what do I know?)

I'm kinda thinking through this as I type... but, if the K is gonna be knocked down... and we're gonna spend money on a "new" home for the Chiefs... I'd start to lean towards something brand new and done right. You've got a site for it... there's no need for interruption in games at the current Arrowhead (tho... I suppose there's a possibility of contruction and whatnot taking up some of the parking lot if the timing is wrong...)

I dunno... I like the current Arrowhead... and would like to keep it... but, it seems that in that situation, a new one would just make more sense. You're provided a perfect opportunity to do something great.

I was thinking the same, much like the cards are doing....just build one adjacent while games are still being played in the old one.

The idea has also been thrown out to put a new Arrowhead down by Kemper/American Royal (or even replace Kemper), where tailgating would tie in with the American Royal BBQ and the stockyard history. I haven't put much thought into this idea at all to decide if it's even feasible.

[Logical]

I was thinking the same, much like the cards are doing....just build one adjacent while games are still being played in the old one.

The idea has also been thrown out to put a new Arrowhead down by Kemper/American Royal (or even replace Kemper), where tailgating would tie in with the American Royal BBQ and the stockyard history. I haven't put much thought into this idea at all to decide if it's even feasible.

If you had ever gone to a game that had 12,000 at Kemper you would know it is not feasible to have a 65K venue with paring on that site. It took 2 to 3 hours to enter and exit the site at Kemper. It would be impossible to get all the cars that are on site at a Chiefs game into and out of that area.

[Logical]

When parking downtown for D'Backs games, you can park for $5 or $10 (depending on how close you are... if you're in a garage, etc.)

It goes up for the playoffs, of course.

I haven't been to a Royals game in years, but I'm sure parking at TSC for those games is more than $5 by now.

Might be, Padres parking the last year at the Q (two years ago) was only $6. I was assuming KC would be about that or less.

[KCN]

When parking downtown for D'Backs games, you can park for $5 or $10 (depending on how close you are... if you're in a garage, etc.)

It goes up for the playoffs, of course.

I haven't been to a Royals game in years, but I'm sure parking at TSC for those games is more than $5 by now.

I think it's $8, seems to go up every year.

[KCN]

If you had ever gone to a game that had 12,000 at Kemper you would know it is not feasible to have a 65K venue with paring on that site. It took 2 to 3 hours to enter and exit the site at Kemper. It would be impossible to get all the cars that are on site at a Chiefs game into and out of that area.

Sounds about right.

[tk13]

IIRC Parking at the K is $8. I would expect that if they were to move downtown it'd be 10-12 bucks like Cardinals games are.... but then again I guess that'd depend on if the parking garages were independently owned and what those people (who may not have any sports "common sense" at all) think they should charge....

[kc rush]

ROFL baseball will never fix its problems because it only takes 4 or maybe 5 owners to block any initiative for change. The big money owners will always block the changes and keep all the revenue. The luxury tax is a pitance for the Yankees, Cubs, Red Sox, Braves, Dodgers etc. You are dreaming if you actually believe MLB will ever be fixed. Mark my words if a downtown stadium is built in KC after the first year attendance will plummet due to inadequate highway infrastructure and parking problems. KC is a car city, it will not change in our lifetimes.

The Yankees were the only ones to vote against the last CBA. The Red Sox have been complaining about salaries and have been looking to unload unreasonable contracts (Manny Ramirez), the Braves are no longer owned by Ted Turner and they have been taking steps to be more fiscally responsible, I've heard complaints from Dodgerland because they are scaling back. The owners are starting to get it (except Steinbrenner) and it is moving in the right direction. It may take some years, but I believe that it is closer than you think.

KC is a car city, part of the reason is because it is decentralized and not practical to jump on 5 busses to get from point A to B. If downtown was the major center of activity for the city mass transit would work.

[KCN]

KC is a car city, part of the reason is because it is decentralized and not practical to jump on 5 busses to get from point A to B. If downtown was the major center of activity for the city mass transit would work.

Yup. The mentality of Kansas Citians is no different than anywhere else. People want what's easiest, and when KC has several major attractions downtown, people will be wanting an alternative and easier solution to the car. When I'm in Chicago, DC and New York I take public transportation because it's much easier than driving. Hell, here in College Station half of us take off campus buses to class since parking is such a mess.

[KCN]

Hell, that ain't bad.

Nah, but it's one of the only events I can think of where parking costs more than the game itself (if you sit in the "Hy Vee" section)

[kc rush]

Haha. Meanwhile they have the second highest payroll in baseball.

New owner, new GM. They have a lot of free agents this year, it will be interesting to see what kind of money the spend to replace those people. The Red Sox will still be a higher payroll team, but they may be a good indicator of what is to come for MLB in general.

[Brando]

That is kinda funny.

Tho, it wouldn't surprise me if I've paid $10 for parking at some point to sit in a $6 seat at a D'Backs game.

Shit..there are some mighty fine watering holes down by the Bob. I would just drunk drive my car into one of those and stay the night.

[Brando]

I've got a buddy who lives down in them parts. Last few times I got drunk in downtown, I just crashed on his couch.

I really gotta go get drunk with him downtown again sometime... if I ever get the f*ck out of Tucson.
I spent a few hours in Tuscon on my way to Nogales (sp). It came accross as the AH of AZ. Definitely could have just been the area we stopped in.
Now Nogales is a whole nother story for when we have beers. It's amazing what you can get from a stripper for $15 down there.

[Brando]

I went into the wrong titty bar. I must've blown $200 in the Nogey titty bar I partied in.

Granted... I had a really good time.
I couldn't believe that they were actually clean and hot. I think the beers were like a buck fitty. Of course the bouncer tried to sell me blow in the bathroom and there was some crazy old guy from Wisconsin pulling his pud in front of everyone too.

[Brando]

ROFL

I don't remember what beers cost at the one we were at.... When we wandered in, I wasn't sotally tober... and hours upon hours later (and a couple hundy), hell, I don't even remember for sure what happened when we left there.

It wasn't until sometime Sunday I realized that I hadn't eaten the entire time i was in Mexico...
Yes..Mexican strip clubs..or as my father calls them..Real Mexico!

[KChiefs1]

Those Kansas folks want somethin'... let 'em have a soccer only stadium.
I'd put it out by the Kansas Speedway. :thumb:

[Mojo Rising]

I don't think a downtown stadium would add enough money to the Royals to be competitive. If they aren't competitive then people won't go after the first year.

KC also is much too spread out for a downtown stadium to work. There aren't enough businesses in downtown in which employees would get off work and then go to the game. People would have to drive from all over to go to the game which eliminates the advantage of a downtown stadium. Because there is a lack of business in downtown there is also a lack of transportation and other infrastructure to make it work.

There would need to be other activity in the area to support these downtown bars and restaurants from Sept - April.

I do think Arrowhead needs more than a facelift too. We need to compete with the other teams for FA's. This offseason was a great example of Lamar not spending enough.

[Brando]

I don't think a downtown stadium would add enough money to the Royals to be competitive. If they aren't competitive then people won't go after the first year.

KC also is much too spread out for a downtown stadium to work. There aren't enough businesses in downtown in which employees would get off work and then go to the game. People would have to drive from all over to go to the game which eliminates the advantage of a downtown stadium. Because there is a lack of business in downtown there is also a lack of transportation and other infrastructure to make it work.

There would need to be other activity in the area to support these downtown bars and restaurants from Sept - April.

I do think Arrowhead needs more than a facelift too. We need to compete with the other teams for FA's. This offseason was a great example of Lamar not spending enough.

This is the kind of thing that actually attracts business to downtown areas. When you have a thriving downtown it attracts more bright young people to the area. That in turn brings companies in. A stadium might not make the Royals more competitive but it can make KC more of a real city again.

[Brando]

"Hey guys, I don't know what you're looking for, but I got it! And, if I ain't got it, I'll steal it!"

That sounds like the Nogales that I know and love!

[BigRedChief]

This is the kind of thing that actually attracts business to downtown areas. When you have a thriving downtown it attracts more bright young people to the area. That in turn brings companies in. A stadium might not make the Royals more competitive but it can make KC more of a real city again.
Nail on head award. This is more about revitalizing downtown. Just imagine...close your eyes...let your imagination go with the flow for a mintue....now quit touching yourself ENDElt260...think about how cool it would be to have an arena and downtown baseball stadium and in between them an entertainment district that has a ESPN Zone, Hard Rock Cafe etc....Really cool idea if you ask me. :thumb:

[Calcountry]

The real way to fight those big teams, is for the small market teams fans to boycott games when they are visiting your local team.

[Brando]

The real way to fight those big teams, is for the small market teams fans to boycott games when they are visiting your local team.
That is an interesting point. I love going out to see the Yankees though. There's nothing more fun than picking fights with their fans. Being from Upstate NY I spent years fighting with them and now I miss it. LOL

[Mojo Rising]

This is the kind of thing that actually attracts business to downtown areas. When you have a thriving downtown it attracts more bright young people to the area. That in turn brings companies in. A stadium might not make the Royals more competitive but it can make KC more of a real city again.

I could be wrong because I haven't lived in KC for 10 years but I don't see it happening. The types of businesses that would need to move there would be corporate and I don't think Mr. Corporate Woods will move his business downtown just because the Royals play there 1/3 of the year.

It is a cool idea though. After growing up in Johnson County's sprawl I really enjoy living a 10 minute train ride from downtown. Even though I am a Dodger fan I enjoy going to SBC Park too.

[BigRedChief]

I could be wrong because I haven't lived in KC for 10 years but I don't see it happening. The types of businesses that would need to move there would be corporate and I don't think Mr. Corporate Woods will move his business downtown just because the Royals play there 1/3 of the year.

It is a cool idea though. After growing up in Johnson County's sprawl I really enjoy living a 10 minute train ride from downtown. Even though I am a Dodger fan I enjoy going to SBC Park too.

These Mr. Corporate types are moving downtown

H&R Block 1,400 workers.

Government workers 825

20th Century 150

not a bad start huh?

the price of lofts is totally outrageous.

[KCN]

I could be wrong because I haven't lived in KC for 10 years but I don't see it happening. The types of businesses that would need to move there would be corporate and I don't think Mr. Corporate Woods will move his business downtown just because the Royals play there 1/3 of the year.

It is a cool idea though. After growing up in Johnson County's sprawl I really enjoy living a 10 minute train ride from downtown. Even though I am a Dodger fan I enjoy going to SBC Park too.

You'd actually be amazed to find out what is happening to bring people downtown. The 90s are over and all of the downfalls of that decade seem to be a thing of the past.

You bring up a good point about people needing to be in place downtown for this idea to work. Lo and behold it's happening. IMO a successful downtown has three types of people in large quantities: business, visitors/tourists (including suburbanites), and most importantly, residents.

The tourists are being given many more reasons to come to downtown. A new arena will break ground in a few months here and will bring with it concerts, sports tournaments...and there is as we know a push for a pro sports team to be a permanent tenant. On top of that, there is the new performing arts center which is supposed to break ground very soon, if they would just settle that stupid parking garage dispute. The PAC will be going right next to Bartle Hall. Then there is the KC Ballet. I've also talked about the Power and Light district. From all I can tell this will be a very exciting addition and will feature establishments for all tastes, from sports bars, dance clubs, jazz/country/rock clubs, local and big chain restaurants (ESPN Zone, Hard Rock, etc) and many other retail stores. A completely seperate but similar development is being proposed for Truman Blvd, right along the southern edge of the loop.

More businesses are coming downtown. H&R block has already begun building their world headquarters which will be inside the P&L district and will be KC's first addition to the skyline in years. The IRS is bringing thousands of employees to the Union Station area. A 1000 room hotel has been proposed, which in itself combined with all the businesses in the P&L district will have employees of their own.

Then there is the most important factor: the residential boom. And I do mean boom. The population downtown has gone from 6,000 to 10,000 in three years. Adding up all the proposed/under construction residences downtown would give a downtown population over 30,000 by the time they're completed by 2010 or so. The P&L district itself is supposed to include several 10-12 story apartment buildings. And given the higher than expected demand for these places, there's no reason to believe they won't fill up. Lofts are the big trend now. Even suburbs are building them (Zona Rosa).

So yeah, there will definitely be more people downtown to be able to walk to an evening game. Many more so than people who can walk to TSC.

[Mojo Rising]

You'd actually be amazed to find out what is happening to bring people downtown. The 90s are over and all of the downfalls of that decade seem to be a thing of the past.

You bring up a good point about people needing to be in place downtown for this idea to work. Lo and behold it's happening. IMO a successful downtown has three types of people in large quantities: business, visitors/tourists (including suburbanites), and most importantly, residents.

The tourists are being given many more reasons to come to downtown. A new arena will break ground in a few months here and will bring with it concerts, sports tournaments...and there is as we know a push for a pro sports team to be a permanent tenant. On top of that, there is the new performing arts center which is supposed to break ground very soon, if they would just settle that stupid parking garage dispute. The PAC will be going right next to Bartle Hall. Then there is the KC Ballet. I've also talked about the Power and Light district. From all I can tell this will be a very exciting addition and will feature establishments for all tastes, from sports bars, dance clubs, jazz/country/rock clubs, local and big chain restaurants (ESPN Zone, Hard Rock, etc) and many other retail stores. A completely seperate but similar development is being proposed for Truman Blvd, right along the southern edge of the loop.

More businesses are coming downtown. H&R block has already begun building their world headquarters which will be inside the P&L district and will be KC's first addition to the skyline in years. The IRS is bringing thousands of employees to the Union Station area. A 1000 room hotel has been proposed, which in itself combined with all the businesses in the P&L district will have employees of their own.

Then there is the most important factor: the residential boom. And I do mean boom. The population downtown has gone from 6,000 to 10,000 in three years. Adding up all the proposed/under construction residences downtown would give a downtown population over 30,000 by the time they're completed by 2010 or so. The P&L district itself is supposed to include several 10-12 story apartment buildings. And given the higher than expected demand for these places, there's no reason to believe they won't fill up. Lofts are the big trend now. Even suburbs are building them (Zona Rosa).

So yeah, there will definitely be more people downtown to be able to walk to an evening game. Many more so than people who can walk to TSC.

Cool. I didn't know about all of this. So what are these lofts/apartments going for?

[KCN]

Cool. I didn't know about all of this. So what are these lofts/apartments going for?

Most are pretty pricey. The crossroads district (between the loop and crown center) has a lot of more affordable lofts opening up geared toward a younger, "starving artist" type crowd where you can rent for $300 a month and on up. I think the average loft is about $100K - $400K to own. The most expensive I'm aware of will be the two condos taking up the two towers at the top of the old Fidelity Bank building. Those will go for over $1M each. But I've seen the view from up there and wow.

Actually I'm going to the websites of a lot of these to get pricing ideas and many have already completely sold out. This is a good sign :)

[BigRedChief]

F*ck you. I'll touch myself whenever the hell I goddamwell please.

You got tape of that? Throw in some lesbian midgets and youve got a best seller.

[BigRedChief]

I'm pretty sure you're the only one interested in video of me masturbating.

Don't sell yourself short.:p

[BigRedChief]

This whole conversation has taken a really disturbing turn.

*slowly backs away*

Let's send it over the edge in a thread crashing drift

Still from Endelt260's movie:

http://members.cox.net/ptco911/drunk.JPG

[Brando]

I could be wrong because I haven't lived in KC for 10 years but I don't see it happening. The types of businesses that would need to move there would be corporate and I don't think Mr. Corporate Woods will move his business downtown just because the Royals play there 1/3 of the year.

It is a cool idea though. After growing up in Johnson County's sprawl I really enjoy living a 10 minute train ride from downtown. Even though I am a Dodger fan I enjoy going to SBC Park too.

What brings business sompeplace is a young, intelligent, lower cost workforce. If the parents of KC want to keep their children in town downtown needs to come to life. Young people are leaving for places like Denver because they like a functioning urban core.
If you can keep these kids home you provide a reason for companies to locate their offices here.

[BigRedChief]

What brings business sompeplace is a young, intelligent, lower cost workforce. If the parents of KC want to keep their children in town downtown needs to come to life. Young people are leaving for places like Denver because they like a functioning urban core.
If you can keep these kids home you provide a reason for companies to locate their offices here.

We should ask Rainman why he's a downtown Denverite?

[Brando]

We should ask Rainman why he's a downtown Denverite?
Shit, even Phoenix knows that in order to build a sustainable city they need a stronger downtown.
Think about NYC, Chicago, Boston, etc... I love to visit those places because of all that they have to offer. There's no reason any city can't do it on a smaller scale. It just takes a plan and people that are willing to take action.