Hypothectical: How would Bellichick fare with our defense?

[Deberg_1990]

I know, silly question but was just curious how you guys think he could do with this teams talent? This guy and his staff shut down Peyton "Football Messiah" Manning on Sunday with 3 scrub DB's....I know we dont have the most talented defensive players in the world but I dont really believe that New England does either. It seems as if Bellichick has an amazing ability to get mediocre players to play above and beyond their abilities.....

[htismaqe]

Marty Schottenheimer has some of that ability too.

However, Belichik also has a keen ability to create a winning strategy with those players, like nobody else in the league.

It's like he could play chess with nothing but pawns.

[crossbow]

Interesting indeed. I bet he wouldn't too bad if he was able to bring his assistant coaches. Normaly, a team has a good run and then they decline because they can't get draft picks but this guy does it with only better then average talent.

[Deberg_1990]

Some interesting tidbits from Peter Kings MMQB:

"It's absolutely nuts to me that Peyton Manning didn't test this patchwork secondary with some deep shots, particularly with all eyes on the officiating crew to police the clarified rules. Manning just didn't do it, and I'll never figure that one out."

I wondered this as well?? Its like Manning was gun shy all the sudden??



"Is weather their kryptonite? Do the Colts have to play in pristine conditions to be any good in a big game? I'm not blaming everything on Manning, but three points? Three points! And if the Patriots don't drop an interception in the end zone late in the first half, it's zero points. Against a secondary that featured a rookie corner back who didn't even start at LSU, Randall Gay, a slot receiver playing nickel, Troy Brown, and Hank Poteat, who the Patriots pulled out of classes at the University of Pittsburgh last week, coming in on the seven- and eight-DB packages!"

Absolutely Amazing that they were able to play so well with these 3 DB's. It makes Bartee's 5 year career look all the more sad......

[Skip Towne]

I don't think Belichik would even attempt to go into battle with our sorry D. He would raid the free agent ranks and the practice squads of other teams for players to mold to his system. Bartee, for example, has no business on an NFL roster. Zero INT's in 5 years? Give me a break. A blind man should have gotten a tipped pass at least in that much time. Belichik would clean house and start over and in two years would have a good D. It takes a lot longer to build an O than it does a D.

[alanm]

I don't think Belichik would even attempt to go into battle with our sorry D. He would raid the free agent ranks and the practice squads of other teams for players to mold to his system. Bartee, for example, has no business on an NFL roster. Zero INT's in 5 years? Give me a break. A blind man should have gotten a tipped pass at least in that much time. Belichik would clean house and start over and in two years would have a good D. It takes a lot longer to build an O than it does a D.Bellichick would probably take our existing _efense out behind the stadium and have them shot 1st thing upon taking over. Hypothetically of course. :)

[Mr. Laz]

i wouldn't imagine Bellcheck would ever have to go into a game with our defense.

he would teach them better, evaluate them better and replace the guys whould couldn't handle his system.



if you just made him honorary coach for 1 week i would imagine they would suck under bellicheck, just like they suck under our coaches.


the preparation is the key

[Skip Towne]

i wouldn't imagine Bellcheck would ever have to go into a game with our defense.

he would teach them better, evaluate them better and replace the guys whould couldn't handle his system.



if you just made him honorary coach for 1 week i would imagine they would suck under bellicheck, just like they suck under our coaches.


the preparation is the key
Do you think he could "teach" Bartee to turn his head and look for the ball? It doesn't sound very hard but nobody has done it in 9 years counting his college days. Just my opinion but I don't think Belichik would keep more than 3 players from our D. Allen, Warfield and probably someone I don't recognize as having NFL talent. GROB and Gunther showed me that it is deficient talent, not coaching, that makes this D suck.

[OldTownChief]

if you just made him honorary coach for 1 week i would imagine they would suck under bellicheck, just like they suck under our coaches.


the preparation is the key

I agree, no one on our D has any heart, it's like their just out there to collect a paycheck and dance for the Arrowhead crowd knowing there will be no repercussions from DV for a bad performance. Great Topic Deberg

[Hammock Parties]

I agree, no one on our D has any heart, it's like their just out there to collect a paycheck and dance for the Arrowhead crowd knowing there will be no repercussions from DV for a bad performance. Great Topic DeBerg

Oh, they have heart. I see most of em giving it their all out there. Even Sims gives it his all most of the time, IMO.

They just don't have the ability to make plays consistently.

[OldTownChief]

Oh, they have heart. I see most of em giving it their all out there. Even Sims gives it his all most of the time, IMO.

They just don't have the ability to make plays consistently.

I don't see it, look at all the obvious attemps to avoid hits in the open field, thinking someone else would take up the slack.

[Hammock Parties]

I don't see it, look at all the obvious attemps to avoid hits in the open field, thinking someone else would take up the slack.

That's because they're all a bunch of pussies. That, and they were taught for three years to run around blocks and play that pussy style of GROB D.

[Deberg_1990]

I agree, no one on our D has any heart, it's like their just out there to collect a paycheck and dance for the Arrowhead crowd knowing there will be no repercussions from DV for a bad performance. Great Topic Deberg


very much agreed. They have no heart and no fear of ever losing their jobs as long as DV is coach. One of the main problems IMO. No accountability when they screw up.

[Amnorix]

The Patriots hired Belichick in 2000. There was MASSIVE roster turnover during offseasons before the '00 and '01 seasons (the second of which, of course, involved a SB Win).

At this point, there are NO players left on the entire team from the '97-99 timeframe when Bobby Grier ran personnel. There are still a fair number of players from the Parcells era ('93-'96) however.

He clearly shipped out guys that didn't match the kind of system he wanted, and kept those that did.

IMHO, within 2 years of BB taking over the Chiefs, you wouldn't recognize hardly any of the defensive players lining up on Sundays....

[Deberg_1990]

IMHO, within 2 years of BB taking over the Chiefs, you wouldn't recognize hardly any of the defensive players lining up on Sundays....

What should have been done after the 2001 and no later than the 2002 season with the Chiefs. sigh......

[OldTownChief]

The Patriots hired Belichick in 2000. There was MASSIVE roster turnover during offseasons before the '00 and '01 seasons (the second of which, of course, involved a SB Win).

At this point, there are NO players left on the entire team from the '97-99 timeframe when Bobby Grier ran personnel. There are still a fair number of players from the Parcells era ('93-'96) however.

He clearly shipped out guys that didn't match the kind of system he wanted, and kept those that did.

IMHO, within 2 years of BB taking over the Chiefs, you wouldn't recognize hardly any of the defensive players lining up on Sundays....

Definitely a coach that's there to win and not just to make friends to share a glass of wine with.

[RNR]

Um........better I am thinking.

[warpaint99]

Tony Dungy's offense contributed to the whacking they got.


Billichik couldn't do anything with this D because he has no impact players.
The linebackers are soft and may not be coached right. The way NEngland jammed the Colt receivers and the way they tackled is what makes great D.

[Iowanian]

Better.

He'd cut underperforming Coaches, and kick the asses of crappy and underperforming players harder than Vermeil does punters.

[Skip Towne]

Better.

He'd cut underperforming Coaches, and kick the asses of crappy and underperforming players harder than Vermeil does punters.
By saying he would kick the asses of underperforming players you are saying the talent is there but is unmotivated. Is that right? Well, I thought so too till Gunther couldn't do anything with them either. As much as I hate to admit it, GROB ain't that bad. Look at what he's done since he left us. It looks like lack of talent to me and that is why I said earlier that Belichik would clean house, not try to motivate these slugs.

[el borracho]

I think Bill would throw for about 300 yards with 4 touchdowns and 0 interceptions against our D if he kept Pioli in to block now and then. It kind of depends on Charlie Weis' yard-per-carry average (you all know how important a ground game can be).

[Iowanian]

No......I'm saying that players who suck, players making too much money for what they perform, and those who are getting older who can be replaced by younger,cheaper, better players(hicks), and the Turd ass secondary coaching staff would be gone.

...oh..........and there WOULD be Tacklin' drills at TC.

[Rausch]

Marty Schottenheimer has some of that ability too.

However, Belichik also has a keen ability to create a winning strategy with those players, like nobody else in the league.

It's like he could play chess with nothing but pawns.

Oh, I think he's got a full chess set, minus the Queen.

He's got a bunch of average guys that can do one thing really well, and doesn't ask them to do what they can't.

[OldTownChief]

Um........better I am thinking.

Hey Jeff, How are ya? We need to have a CP get together in Wichita sometime.

[tk13]

I think we'd tackle better for sure. Watch the Pats, they just don't miss tackles. It's awesome to watch. All that other stuff though I'm not sure about, like Bartee turning his head and whatnot, I don't think our coaches are that stupid, guys like Bartee just don't have it, they don't learn.

[Skip Towne]

No......I'm saying that players who suck, players making too much money for what they perform, and those who are getting older who can be replaced by younger,cheaper, better players(hicks), and the Turd ass secondary coaching staff would be gone.

...oh..........and there WOULD be Tacklin' drills at TC.
I was pretty sure you and I didn't have an argument. I maintain that the players you describe above, when shown the door, leave us with 3 players. Allen, Warfield and somebody that has potential that I'm not smart enough to see but Belechik is. Could be Mitchell or one of the DL's. Possibly Harts. And, yes, I'd make tackling drills a top priority and Gunther should already know that.

[OldTownChief]

I'm starting to think that as long as DV is here we will see some really pissed off posters around here. The whole organization needs an enema.

[Valiant]

I know, silly question but was just curious how you guys think he could do with this teams talent? This guy and his staff shut down Peyton "Football Messiah" Manning on Sunday with 3 scrub DB's....I know we dont have the most talented defensive players in the world but I dont really believe that New England does either. It seems as if Bellichick has an amazing ability to get mediocre players to play above and beyond their abilities.....


I honestly don't believe he could without major overhaul... How many people has he changed over since his first year, i believe that is when they won their first superbowl...

[Amnorix]

Oh, I think he's got a full chess set, minus the Queen.

He's got a bunch of average guys that can do one thing really well, and doesn't ask them to do what they can't.

Bull****.

I would argue that in building their rosters, many NFL teams try to have a handful of 9's and 10's (in terms of talented players on a scale of 1-10 where 10 is best) and then fill out the roster with 5's and maybe a handful of 3's and 4's due to salary cap issues.

The Patriots try to make sure that EVERY player on the 53 man roster is AT LEAST a 5 (which means an "average" NFL talent). We have a healthy dose of guys in the 7-8 range, and a couple of 9's or 10's that we either drafted (Seymour, Brady) or otherwise acquired (Dillon, Harrison were FA pickups).

It's frankly a joke to hear how BB just "coaches up" a bunch of average players. It's an insult to the players, and just WRONG.

[Amnorix]

I think we'd tackle better for sure. Watch the Pats, they just don't miss tackles. It's awesome to watch. All that other stuff though I'm not sure about, like Bartee turning his head and whatnot, I don't think our coaches are that stupid, guys like Bartee just don't have it, they don't learn.

Belichick is conservative with the info, but he is willing to share "philosophy" type stuff. I remember once during the off-season he was asked about defensive players. The first thing he said was "tackling. If you can't tackle, I really don't know what you're doing on defense, and I don't know what I can do with you".

Even the cornerbacks can tackle well.

[Amnorix]

BTW, these kinds of issues are EXACTLY what Bill Parcells is struggling with in Dallas.

He likes the 3-4, and he likes big linebackers, like the Pats and Steelers. When he go to Dallas, they had a proven successful system based on a fast, quick, light defense like Tony Dungy's old Tampa Bay defenses.

His first year there, the defense was ranked #1, but some guys (Dat Nguyen among them) wore down as the season wore down, and by the playoffs they were spent (not that this was the only reason they lost early).

Now, he's trying to figure out if he needs to completely overhaul the defense to match what he has historically done (and won Super Bowls with) or whether to keep the current system.

[Valiant]

Belichick is conservative with the info, but he is willing to share "philosophy" type stuff. I remember once during the off-season he was asked about defensive players. The first thing he said was "tackling. If you can't tackle, I really don't know what you're doing on defense, and I don't know what I can do with you".

Even the cornerbacks can tackle well.


Yeah, I wonder what it would be like to have D tackle agian... Your team is just so great front to back on O and D... I don't think you have one Bartee type player on your team.. You wouldn't, you would cut them for talent reason or attitude reason.. It is something our franchise will not learn.. The best thing about Belichick is his no nonsense attitude, it is Parcells like...

[OldTownChief]

Bull****.



It's frankly a joke to hear how BB just "coaches up" a bunch of average players. It's an insult to the players, and just WRONG.

He's a better scout for talent than we have and more respected within the organization to make tough decisions than any coach in KC has been since Hank.

He doesn't work under Carl Peterson.

[tk13]

Belichick is conservative with the info, but he is willing to share "philosophy" type stuff. I remember once during the off-season he was asked about defensive players. The first thing he said was "tackling. If you can't tackle, I really don't know what you're doing on defense, and I don't know what I can do with you".

Even the cornerbacks can tackle well.
Yeah that's true, a lot of it probably is the fact that he simply gets guys who can tackle. I've heard Mike Golic on ESPN harp on that, that tackling in the league for the most part sucks and really there aren't teams out there that work a lot on tackling.... I honestly have no idea how much the Pats work on it, I do imagine a lot of it comes from just picking up guys who know how to tackle, but you guys do it so well....

[OldTownChief]

Yeah that's true, a lot of it probably is the fact that he simply gets guys who can tackle. I've heard Mike Golic on ESPN harp on that, that tackling in the league for the most part sucks and really there aren't teams out there that work a lot on tackling.... I honestly have no idea how much the Pats work on it, I do imagine a lot of it comes from just picking up guys who know how to tackle, but you guys do it so well....

It seems like all year long I was watching Chiefs players wince up before a hit and curl up in the fetal position before contact. If it was in the open field they would extend one arm and try to push the ball carrier down the field for 30 yards hoping they would go out of bounds.

Peterson signed most of these scabs through 2006 and he's getting what he deserves, a bunch of DV coddled babies.

Football is a tough game, if we can't get a tough owner and coaching staff we will continue to play arena style football.

[tk13]

It seems like all year long I was watching Chiefs players wince up before a hit and curl up in the fetal position before contact. If it was in the open field they would extend one arm and try to push the ball carrier down the field for 30 yards hoping they would go out of bounds.

Peterson signed most of these scabs through 2006 and he's getting what he deserves, a bunch of DV coddled babies.

Football is a tough game, if we can't get a tough owner and coaching staff we will continue to play arena style football.
But that's never been DV's thing... that's probably the problem. He's been way too easy on these guys, which is completely against his usual style. He's always been known as a brutally tough coach. Last night they showed the Super Bowl highlights film on ESPN from his Super Bowl with the Eagles back in 1980, and like the announcer said on the film, that Eagles team wasn't known as the most talented group, just the team that worked the hardest. Same thing with the Rams, they almost revolted on Vermeil because they got sick of working so hard and DV had to back off.... even last year when we 13-3 he worked guys hard. From the opening of camp this year it seemed like guys were getting days off and he was taking it easy, and maybe it bit us in the rear.

[OldTownChief]

But that's never been DV's thing... that's probably the problem. He's been way too easy on these guys, which is completely against his usual style. He's always been known as a brutally tough coach. Last night they showed the Super Bowl highlights film on ESPN from his Super Bowl with the Eagles back in 1980, and like the announcer said on the film, that Eagles team wasn't known as the most talented group, just the team that worked the hardest. Same thing with the Rams, they almost revolted on Vermeil because they got sick of working so hard and DV had to back off.... even last year when we 13-3 he worked guys hard. From the opening of camp this year it seemed like guys were getting days off and he was taking it easy, and maybe it bit us in the rear.

It seems that DV is set in his ways now and when someone points out the obvious to him, he goes against it just for spite. I see it pretty much the same way you do as far as his past but he's gone soft with the players, and from the earlier posting about his return from wine country it looks like he's looking at next season in his same hard headed way.

[DaWolf]

I think he'd do better, and I think there are a few defensive coaches who could probably do better. The whole year I just got the sense that we were trying to get these guys to play this Gunther scheme, and I don't think either one fit the other. A coach who could come in and maximize his system to the players' strength and devise a scheme that could mask their deficiencies as much as possible would have a better chance at making this at least an average defense.

Us, we've got guys who had no idea what the fundamentals were, did not play smart, and kept breaking down and missing assignments. To me, that always points back to poor coaching and poor preperation and a poor offseason program. I mean for goodness sakes DV was saying around game 12 that "Maybe we're trying to get these guys do do something that they can't consistently do, and we need to figure out what it is and have them do what they can do better." Well hello dumbass, why did it take you and your coordinator 12 games to come to that conclusion? And now he turns around and tells us his coaches aren't at fault. I mean which is it? At one point he's saying his coaches are asking the defenders to do things they can't consistently do, and now he's saying coaching isn't a problem.

BB would have just cut through the BS and played the guys who mentally get it and devised something, anything, that would maximize whatever ability the players have. We sure didn't get that this past year from Gunther...

[milkman]

I think he'd do better, and I think there are a few defensive coaches who could probably do better. The whole year I just got the sense that we were trying to get these guys to play this Gunther scheme, and I don't think either one fit the other. A coach who could come in and maximize his system to the players' strength and devise a scheme that could mask their deficiencies as much as possible would have a better chance at making this at least an average defense.

Us, we've got guys who had no idea what the fundamentals were, did not play smart, and kept breaking down and missing assignments. To me, that always points back to poor coaching and poor preperation and a poor offseason program. I mean for goodness sakes DV was saying around game 12 that "Maybe we're trying to get these guys do do something that they can't consistently do, and we need to figure out what it is and have them do what they can do better." Well hello dumbass, why did it take you and your coordinator 12 games to come to that conclusion? And now he turns around and tells us his coaches aren't at fault. I mean which is it? At one point he's saying his coaches are asking the defenders to do things they can't consistently do, and now he's saying coaching isn't a problem.

BB would have just cut through the BS and played the guys who mentally get it and devised something, anything, that would maximize whatever ability the players have. We sure didn't get that this past year from Gunther...

I think you hit the nail on the head with this one.

[RNR]

Hey Jeff, How are ya? We need to have a CP get together in Wichita sometime.
Sounds cool! we have done it before, heck we even got Gaz out of the house for a game.

[cadmonkey]

First off, he would actually draft you a defense that can play. Then he would make it a top 10 defense year in and year out.

[whoman69]

The thing about Bill Bellicheck is he is a good judge of talent on the D side and can get players that will do what is needed. They seem to always hold onto the players they need and get rid of those that won't perform.
If Gunther Cunningham can't get this D to go, nobody can. He is amongst the top defensive minds in the league.

[Rausch]

First off, he would actually draft you a defense that can play. Then he would make it a top 10 defense year in and year out.

In Gun's defense, look how long it took DV to "weed out" the players he did and didn't want for his offense. Now, we don't have 3 years for Gun to get it going, but I think we'll see a big difference after two years of Gun's input on FA and drafting...

[RNR]

In Gun's defense, look how long it took DV to "weed out" the players he did and didn't want for his defense. Now, we don't have 3 years for Gun to get it going, but I think we'll see a big difference after two years of Gun's input on FA and drafting...
Again this make little sense to me, DV had to weed out players he did not want (which were Guns players) now Gun has to weed out DVs players and get his back?

[Rausch]

Again this make little sense to me, DV had to weed out players he did not want (which were Guns players) now Gun has to weed out DVs players and get his back?

Sorry. I threw in "defense" where "offense" should have been. Should make more sense now...

Gun is getting rid of GROB's players. GROB was given nearly complete control of the defense and DV took a "hands off" approach...

[RNR]

Sorry. I threw in "defense" where "offense" should have been. Should make more sense now...

Gun is getting rid of GROB's players. GROB was given nearly complete control of the defense and DV took a "hands off" approach...
Yes is does, I did not know Robinson had a hand in the players you have on defense. I know Gun can coach D but also feel it was proven that nobody could turn that D around.

[cadmonkey]

In Gun's defense, look how long it took DV to "weed out" the players he did and didn't want for his offense. Now, we don't have 3 years for Gun to get it going, but I think we'll see a big difference after two years of Gun's input on FA and drafting...


Well he went 0-for in his first seasson

[htismaqe]

Oh, I think he's got a full chess set, minus the Queen.

He's got a bunch of average guys that can do one thing really well, and doesn't ask them to do what they can't.

I don't necessarily agree with that.

I wasn't saying he IS playing chess with nothing but pawns. I said I believe he CAN play chess with nothing but pawns.