Rand: Downtown Stadium's An Awful Idea

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

RAND: Downtown Stadium's An Awful Idea
Jan 20, 2005, 3:47:42 AM by Jonathan Rand


Imagine if you were one of America’s most astute businessmen and people who knew almost nothing about your businesses tried to tell you how to run one of them. Imagine if these meddlers told you that, contrary to your respected business savvy, you needed to relocate.

If you’re Wal-Mart CEO and Royals owner David Glass, you don’t need to imagine any of this. Boosters insist that he needs to move his team into a stadium downtown.

When it comes to Kauffman Stadium, Glass has asked only for renovations that would meet Jackson County’s lease obligation to keep the Truman Sports Complex stadiums in “state-of-the-art” condition. But downtown leaders tell Glass he shouldn’t settle for a four-bedroom house because they will build him a mansion. The only problem is, they can’t explain who’s going to pay for the mansion.

This pie-in-the-sky notion wouldn’t be a problem except that it’s binding the county’s hands and delaying badly-needed improvements for both stadiums.

This stadium issue should be simple: we have a smartly conceived, well-located sports complex with plenty of parking and two major league teams that need stadium upgrades. Most cities would come up with a financing plan and thank their lucky stars for owners who aren’t demanding new, palatial facilities.

But most cities don’t have a state line fracturing their tax base and the Bi-state proposal to pay for stadium renovations lost at the polls. Jackson County has readied a sensible fallback plan: a quarter-cent sales tax for four years that would raise $80 million for renovations.

But this proposal is doomed to fail with voters as long as downtown leaders keep yapping about a new stadium. People aren’t going to vote for renovations if they keep hearing that a new stadium might be just around the corner.

County officials hoped to avoid seeing their tax proposal undermined and asked downtown leaders to present their stadium proposal last month. Those leaders agreed, then failed to deliver. Now, the Chiefs and Royals are being asked to wait a year so civic leaders have more time to develop a plan that neither franchise wants or needs.

Some of the main arguments for a downtown stadium are suspect or specious. Downtown businesses supposedly will buy all the luxury suites and thousands of employees will walk over to the ballpark every night to watch the Royals. And a new stadium will do for downtown Kansas City what Coors Field supposedly did for downtown Denver.

The Sports Complex is only a 10-minute drive from downtown and we know there’s plenty of parking there. So why would thousands of new Royals fans suddenly materialize from the downtown work force? When the Royals have been winning, they’ve never had a problem drawing fans from in or out of town.

Now, about the Coors Field myth. That stadium has been a nice addition to downtown Denver but it’s simply untrue to claim it as a catalyst for redevelopment.

Denver’s downtown already had a bar and restaurant district, retail shopping and hotels before Coors Field was built. And Denver didn’t have a major league baseball stadium. If we didn’t already have a ballpark, then, sure, it would make sense to build one downtown.

And, by the way, what would the downtown boosters do with Kauffman Stadium? The Chiefs, certainly, won’t tolerate a vacant stadium, gathering weeds and beer bottles, on the other side of the parking lot from Arrowhead Stadium. You’d have to find an alternative use for Kauffman Stadium or blow it up.

Before signing off on a downtown stadium, we should see how downtown supports the new arena. We’ve never had professional sports in a new facility in the heart of downtown, but the only somewhat comparable situation I can recall makes me skeptical.

Bernie Glannon put the Sizzlers, a minor league basketball team, in Municipal Auditorium in the 1980s. He was initially optimistic because he was assured he’d enjoy tremendous support from downtown businesses. That support barely materialized and the Sizzlers moved to Topeka.

As long as we’re distracted by a vague downtown proposal, we risk a worst-case scenario: the Sports Complex falls into worse disrepair while downtown leaders keep fooling with a new stadium plan that never materializes. Then, the Royals become exasperated and leave town or we’re stuck with a bill for two new stadiums.

Mayor Kay Barnes, the driving force behind the downtown arena, has said she would devote her remaining time and effort in office to ensuring the long-term stability of the Chiefs and Royals. She should start by telling her downtown allies that we need to leave the stadiums where they are.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

fwiw I couldn't agree with this article more.

[Brock]

Why don't they just build some tall buildings around Kaufman instead?

[BigChiefFan]

I'd prefer to have a downtown baseball stadium and actually getting some butts in the seats so we can pursue players and IMPROVE the team.

[Brock]

I'd prefer to have a downtown baseball stadium and actually getting some butts in the seats so we can pursue players and IMPROVE the team.

So you think people are staying away because of the stadium? Brilliant?!

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I'd prefer to have a downtown baseball stadium and actually getting some butts in the seats so we can pursue players and IMPROVE the team.
Who says building a stadium downtown will put butts in the seats? Winning will put butts in the seats, even if the stadium is in North Liberty, South Lee's Summit or ****ing Sedalia.

[BigChiefFan]

So you think people are staying away because of the stadium? Brilliant?!
No, I don't think that at all. I think building a NEW state of the art stadium downtown would peak people's interests and would help increase attendance.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Why don't they just build some tall buildings around Kaufman instead?
That's it! Why didn't we think of this before???? Brilliant!!!

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

No, I don't think that at all. I think building a NEW state of the art stadium downtown would peak people's interests and would help increase attendance.
In the short term yes.....in the long term only a competitive team will draw fans.

[ROYC75]

I'd prefer to have a downtown baseball stadium and actually getting some butts in the seats so we can pursue players and IMPROVE the team.

A downtown stadium is not going to get this done. It starts with the quality of the product you put on the field.

Bad teams draw low crowds.
Good teams draw big crowds !

It starts and ends with the Royals, nothing else.

[Brock]

No, I don't think that at all. I think building a NEW state of the art stadium downtown would peak people's interests and would help increase attendance.

Winning does that, not new stadiums. People stayed away from Arrowhead when the Chiefs were perennial dogs too.

[Ultra Peanut]

I think it's true that a new stadium alone can't save the Royals. Just look at the Pirates. PNC is an awesome ballpark, and still pretty new, but their attendance didn't get much help from it simply because they're so friggin' terrible. I do, however, think that opposing a downtown stadium is a dumb idea.

Bernie Glannon put the Sizzlers, a minor league basketball team, in Municipal Auditorium in the 1980s. He was initially optimistic because he was assured he’d enjoy tremendous support from downtown businesses. That support barely materialized and the Sizzlers moved to Topeka.Yeah, that's really comparable.

[siberian khatru]

I don't live in KC, but I visit nearly every summer to take in a Royals game. And when I lived in MO, driving to the complex either from the rural north or from Columbia to the east, I was grateful that the stadium was right by the interstate, easy to get into and out of -- especially compared to many of the other pro sports stadiums I've been to.

The Royals and Chiefs rely heavily on regional fans, from Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, etc. Even if you gained some downtown business folks as fans (a highly dubious proposition, IMO), you may lose just as many drive-in fans from the sticks who don't want to deal with downtown parking, etc.

In other words, I agree totally with this column.

[BigChiefFan]

Guys, I know all that. I just think it could be that spark that could help increase attendance to help improve the payroll. I know I would go to a lot more games if there was stuff to do around the stadium,too. I think Kaufman is a great stadium, but we have to think long-term and throwing money at the K when we can have one of the nicest downtown venues in the nation is the way to go IMO.

[beavis]

Winning does that, not new stadiums. People stayed away from Arrowhead when the Chiefs were perennial dogs too.
Then why do the Chiefs want stadium improvements? It's about increasing revenues with the luxury boxes, etc. Not increasing attendance.

[DaneMcCloud]

I think the point that the "no downtown stadium" people are missing is that something like 12 Billion dollars is going into downtown development. High rise condos, buildings, etc. With that comes people and foot traffic. New restaurants, coffee shops, shopping and more. A real urban area! And it would be great for those people to be able to walk right to the stadium. That alone will increase attendance which will of course provide more money to the Royals.

It sounds to me like Mayor Barnes is concerned with Kansas City and not the suburbs. Btw, that is her job!

Dane

[Brock]

Then why do the Chiefs want stadium improvements? It's about increasing revenues with the luxury boxes, etc. Not increasing attendance.

The Chiefs aren't asking for a new stadium. Neither are the Royals for that matter.

[ROYC75]

Truman Sports Complex is probally the greatest sports complex in America. Tearing one of them down for a downtown stadium for basball is sickening to think of.

The fact that the stadium will not spark fan increase long term is reson enough to shoot this down.

Refurbish what we have, this includes both stadiums and both teams.

[Mr. Laz]

Truman Sports Complex is probally the greatest sports complex in America. Tearing one of them down for a downtown stadium for basball is sickening to think of.

The fact that the stadium will not spark fan increase long term is reson enough to shoot this down.

Refurbish what we have, this includes both stadiums and both teams.

u live in mizzery? .... jackson county perhap?

[Mr. Kotter]

Rand nailed it.

Refurbish the existing stadiums, a la Lambeau field.

Get it done now.

[ROYC75]

u live in mizzery? .... jackson county perhap?


Try Kentucky, :banghead: by way of Kansas ! :thumb:

[Mr. Laz]

Try Kentucky, :banghead: by way of Kansas ! :thumb:

you dont even live in KC ... then shut the hell up, your vote don't count!

































:p :thumb:

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

.

Get it done now.
They can't. Bi-state II failed.

[ROYC75]

you dont even live in KC ... then shut the hell up, your vote don't count!


I use to and I plan on coming back. I would like to see it all back in the same place too . :D
































:p :thumb:

[shaneo69]

As a Chiefs season ticket holder living outside the KC area, I'm glad the residents shot down the plan to just refurbish the stadiums. If that had happened, I think the teams' owners would have been coming back in 10 years asking for new stadiums anyway. Make the minor repairs now and just plan on building new stadiums in 5-10 years.

Here's why I like the idea of a downtown baseball stadium. Most fans going to games are in their 20's and 30's. Baseball is somewhat of a boring game. Most people in that age range like to go down to the game, catch some sun, watch 6-7 innings while drinking a few beers, and then head to the bars to party. At least that's how it is here in St. Louis. Football is a tailgating sport, but baseball is not. The Truman complex is great for the Chiefs tailgating fans, but bad for baseball fans to want to watch some baseball and then hit the bars.

[cookster50]

They can't. Bi-state II failed.

Because it was a horrible plan. Put together a good plan, a bi-state tax will pass.

[Brock]

The Truman complex is great for the Chiefs tailgating fans, but bad for baseball fans to want to watch some baseball and then hit the bars.

So somebody should build bars where the stadiums are.

[vckcchiefs04]

Bottom line fellas... I live downtown and I for one could not want a downtown ball park more! Just the thought of the Sprint Center at one end, a new KC Live entertainment district in the middle and a beautiful new Kauffman Stadium on the other side of downtown just get's my blood in a stir. To be able to walk to the Sprint Center, then go hang out in the KC Live district and party would be outstanding. Or think about getting up early in the morning on a Saturday and hitting the Rivermarket to go shopping and relaxing, then WALK to the new stadium and catch a noon baseball game all day.... then after the game go back to the KC Live district and hit the bars and shops... wow, stuff a city with a REAL DOWNTOWN does. Come on folks, we can get a new stadium and let the Chiefs have all that property at the Truman sports complex to do whatever they want with it. Let's think like a real city for once, let's get out of our midwest hick ways of thinking we've been stuck in for years! :cuss:

[Mr. Kotter]

They can't. Bi-state II failed.

First time, proposals like this often do. They need to tweak it, and come back with it IMO.

[BigChiefFan]

As a Chiefs season ticket holder living outside the KC area, I'm glad the residents shot down the plan to just refurbish the stadiums. If that had happened, I think the teams' owners would have been coming back in 10 years asking for new stadiums anyway. Make the minor repairs now and just plan on building new stadiums in 5-10 years.

Here's why I like the idea of a downtown baseball stadium. Most fans going to games are in their 20's and 30's. Baseball is somewhat of a boring game. Most people in that age range like to go down to the game, catch some sun, watch 6-7 innings while drinking a few beers, and then head to the bars to party. At least that's how it is here in St. Louis. Football is a tailgating sport, but baseball is not. The Truman complex is great for the Chiefs tailgating fans, but bad for baseball fans to want to watch some baseball and then hit the bars.
Exact-a-mundo.

[DaneMcCloud]

vckcchiefs04,

I think you and I have the right idea. Bi-State II, from what I understand, was a bad idea because the tax was open-ended. If Kansas City wants to be considered a "Big City", downtown revitalization must occur. If it doesn't, Kansas City will most certainly lose the Royals and eventually, the Chiefs.

Dane

[BigChiefFan]

Bottom line fellas... I live downtown and I for one could not want a downtown ball park more! Just the thought of the Sprint Center at one end, a new KC Live entertainment district in the middle and a beautiful new Kauffman Stadium on the other side of downtown just get's my blood in a stir. To be able to walk to the Sprint Center, then go hang out in the KC Live district and party would be outstanding. Or think about getting up early in the morning on a Saturday and hitting the Rivermarket to go shopping and relaxing, then WALK to the new stadium and catch a noon baseball game all day.... then after the game go back to the KC Live district and hit the bars and shops... wow, stuff a city with a REAL DOWNTOWN does. Come on folks, we can get a new stadium and let the Chiefs have all that property at the Truman sports complex to do whatever they want with it. Let's think like a real city for once, let's get out of our midwest hick ways of thinking we've been stuck in for years! :cuss:
Great post.

[Bearcat]

I think the point that the "no downtown stadium" people are missing is that something like 12 Billion dollars is going into downtown development. High rise condos, buildings, etc. With that comes people and foot traffic. New restaurants, coffee shops, shopping and more. A real urban area! And it would be great for those people to be able to walk right to the stadium. That alone will increase attendance which will of course provide more money to the Royals.

It sounds to me like Mayor Barnes is concerned with Kansas City and not the suburbs. Btw, that is her job!

Dane


$2 billion, but you weren't far off :p

Seriously though, you're right.... the KC Live development, as well as working on 12th Street and Truman Road so they are pedestrian-friendly.... they've had thoughts of putting Truman Road on top of 670, and lining that area with trees/sidewalks..... as well as the new bus system.

As much as the "traditionalist" inside me doesn't want to see the K go, it wouldn't be the end of the world. Maybe they could even build a 2000 seat facility for soccer :rolleyes: ;)

[Calcountry]

Winning does that, not new stadiums. People stayed away from Arrowhead when the Chiefs were perennial dogs too.
Oh yeah, in the 70's it was ahead of its time and empty most of the time.

[Calcountry]

I think the point that the "no downtown stadium" people are missing is that something like 12 Billion dollars is going into downtown development. High rise condos, buildings, etc. With that comes people and foot traffic. New restaurants, coffee shops, shopping and more. A real urban area! And it would be great for those people to be able to walk right to the stadium. That alone will increase attendance which will of course provide more money to the Royals.

It sounds to me like Mayor Barnes is concerned with Kansas City and not the suburbs. Btw, that is her job!

Dane
FWIW, SBC Park has done wonders for the China Basin in San Francisco.

That area use to be a friggin slum with people sleeping in thier station wagons and such.

[the Talking Can]

building a new stadium for a team (Royals) that won't even exist in a decade would be, umm....dumb....

[dtebbe]

FWIW, SBC Park has done wonders for the China Basin in San Francisco.

That area use to be a friggin slum with people sleeping in thier station wagons and such.

Maybe the new staidum should be built off Troost?

DT

[warpaint99]

I would rather sink money in a new baseball stadium than refixing Kaufman stadium at a BIG price.

The stadiums are NOT located in a good spot.

Most of you don't even know why the stadiums were located there in the first place. It was NOT because of parking space ! I say it's probably some cozy gov/insider realestate deal -Use my property and i will write a check for your re-election.

The big cities are definitely way ahead in planning versus the idiots here.They have all their ballparks in the city where it's convenient for tourists and walkup buyers.

[Mr. Kotter]

WHAT??? Baseball's best fans don't stay for the whole game?

Yeah, but most don't head to the bars after the bottom of the third inning...

[Bearcat]

Most of you don't even know why the stadiums were located there in the first place.


I'll take It Sounded Like a Good Idea at the Time for $1000.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Because it was a horrible plan. Put together a good plan, a bi-state tax will pass.
Ok. I didn't say it was a good plan. I really don't know since I don't live there. I'm all for a good plan.

[Dave Lane]

No, I don't think that at all. I think building a NEW state of the art stadium downtown would peak people's interests and would help increase attendance.

I agree than if we could get some light rail to it from the Plaza / Ward parkway it' even be more fun. But heck who wants a state of the art stadium in KC. We don't deserve it. TIC

Dave

[Eleazar]

WHAT??? Baseball's best fans don't stay for the whole game?

I remember the last game I went to there at God's ashtray. the Cardinals were down by 1 or 2, later in the game. Runner on base, and McGwire came up so the place went nuts. Then - there it was - a high fly ball. Everyone in the place leaps to their feat and thrusts their hands in the air. The guy in front of me sporting le mullet and a pornstache bellows out "YEEESSSS!!!". The ball settles gently into the fielder's glove in medium-depth left field. (I'm trying to stifle my laughter that these knowledgable baseball fans all thought the can of corn was a home run.) But the inning isn't over. Ray Lankford comes up, and I think there was only 1 out after the fly out. But the place couldn't clear out fast enough. No sooner had the walking Balco franchise headed back for the dugout than these chumps headed to the exits en masse. friggin Lankford, the guy was a good hitter, pretty decent chance to bring the run in. The game was nowhere near over but the aisles were jammed.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I remember the last game I went to there at God's ashtray. the Cardinals were down by 1 or 2, later in the game. Runner on base, and McGwire came up so the place went nuts. Then - there it was - a high fly ball. Everyone in the place leaps to their feat and thrusts their hands in the air. The guy in front of me sporting le mullet and a pornstache bellows out "YEEESSSS!!!". The ball settles gently into the fielder's glove in medium-depth left field. (I'm trying to stifle my laughter that these knowledgable baseball fans all thought the can of corn was a home run.) But the inning isn't over. Ray Lankford comes up, and I think there was only 1 out after the fly out. But the place couldn't clear out fast enough. No sooner had the walking Balco franchise headed back for the dugout than these chumps headed to the exits en masse. friggin Lankford, the guy was a good hitter, pretty decent chance to bring the run in. The game was nowhere near over but the aisles were jammed.
God's ashtray.... ROFL I love it.

The Cardinals and their fans suck. Greatest baseball city in America my ass.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Heck, I didn't even know God smoked.
who'd of thunk it?

[Ultra Peanut]

As much as the "traditionalist" inside me doesn't want to see the K go, it wouldn't be the end of the world. Maybe they could even build a 2000 seat facility for soccer :rolleyes: ;)What? For your new USL Division 2 team, after the Club Amerizards move to Houston?

[KCN]

The thinking behind a downtown stadium is not to boost attendance as many here discussing, but rather to boost downtown Kansas City as well as improve the ballgame experience for gamegoers.

To those worried about driving to a downtown stadium, if KC would get its act together, you wouldn't have to. That's what light rail/commuter rail is for and it's much easier. And talk of bringing mass transit back to the table will be coming to surface soon....which from what I hear may include commuter rail from JoCo to Union Station.

[Baby Lee]

KC needs light rail before it builds a downtown stadium. For every butt you put in the seats from the white collar saunter-in, you'll lose three from the exurbs who don't want to 'go down into that mess.' Until those folks can park their cars somewhere with a remaining patch of grass a hop skip and jump from home, and ride the rail to the stadium, they'll stay away convinced they're saving themselves from a fortnight of gridlock.

[KCN]

^ I worry that KC gets stuck in a circle of "we won't build a stadium because there's no light rail" and "we won't build light rail because there's no need for it".

[Baby Lee]

God's ashtray.... ROFL I love it.

The Cardinals and their fans suck. Greatest baseball city in America my ass.
I average 15-20 games a year, never miss an out.
And no team with Edmonds in CF 'sucks.' I don't care who it is. Even Edmonds in pinstripes might make me a [very begrudging] fan. Though I dunno, the pinstripes have soured my on Big-U toute suite.

[Baby Lee]

^ I worry that KC gets stuck in a circle of "we won't build a stadium because there's no light rail" and "we won't build light rail because there's no need for it".
Regardless of the stadium, that new Federal Facility is gonna make a need for it. The employees are being given a travel stipend, and that bus system is about to be buggin'.

[tk13]

I'm skeptical that they'll be able to build a stadium as nice as the K, that's my only complaint really. I know there are some outstanding people in town but they really caught magic in a bottle when they built the K, I'm afraid a new stadium would look just like all these other new "retro" stadiums. Even though the K is old there isn't another park in the league like it...

[chiefsfan987]

I don't get the people who claim they don't want to deal with the traffic/parking mess in a downtown stadium. The worst time I ever had getting out of a parking lot was in KC and in Seattle's downtown stadiums I've never had to wait that long.

[Eleazar]

I doubt if there will be any light rail that involves Kansas because no one in Kansas will vote for anything.

[beavis]

building a new stadium for a team (Royals) that won't even exist in a decade would be, umm....dumb....
I think that's kind of the point... to make sure they do exist in a decade.

[the Talking Can]

I think that's kind of the point... to make sure they do exist in a decade.

building a new stadium has absolutely nothing to do with the Royals being able to compete given Baseballs economic structure. Now that the Expos are gone, we are the Expos....the clock is ticking

[beavis]

building a new stadium has absolutely nothing to do with the Royals being able to compete given Baseballs economic structure. Now that the Expos are gone, we are the Expos....the clock is ticking
You said a team that won't exist in a decade. I'm just saying that if we build a new stadium, they will exist, in Kansas City.

I said nothing about being competitive.

[CHIEF4EVER]

The only way this team exists in 10 years is IF they start competing and start generating some revenue.

[beavis]

The only way this team exists in 10 years is IF they start competing and start generating some revenue.
Which they will never do as long as they are in the K.

Either way they'll still exist. But the only way they will ever be competitive again is if revenue sharing is significantly increased.

[CHIEF4EVER]

Which they will never do as long as they are in the K.

Either way they'll still exist. But the only way they will ever be competitive again is if revenue sharing is significantly increased.

IMHO MLB needs to go to an NFL style CBA and salary cap. It is the ONLY way small market teams will consistently be competitive.

[stanleychief]

I say repair and rennovate the existing stadiums. There's nothing about either stadium that's making these teams suck. Granted there are condos going up by the dozens downtown, but what kind of track record do we have in rennovation projects around that area? Boy that Union Station sure is a big draw! :banghead:

Attendence would probably spike after the initial opening (like Union Station) and if the team kept doing poorly, attendence would trail off. I also keep hearing about how access won't be that much worse, but how about parking? I'm sorry, but without the infrastructure in place already, this idea is a turd.

[KCN]

There's no shortage of parking downtown that's for sure. Parking garages out the wazoo coming with the P&L district, arena, performing arts center, etc....not to mention the ones that are already there.

[stanleychief]

There's no shortage of parking downtown that's for sure. Parking garages out the wazoo coming with the P&L district, arena, performing arts center, etc....not to mention the ones that are already there.

Funny.. I have a hard time finding a spot to park downtown where I work. There is adequate parking for business right now, but if you were to add a major draw like a stadium on the current infrastructure you'd have chaos. I guess I'm going to take the wait and see approach on the P&L district, but I'm a little skeptical. So far out of the various rennovation projects in KC, I haven't been too impressed with any of them.