Law, Surtan, Johnson, Rolle will at least one be a Chief? [Archive]

chiefz

02-02-2005, 12:40 PM

So we have Surtan and Law supposely going to be available for the Chiefs to possibly pick up.

Most mocks have either Derrick Johnson out of Texas or the CB out of Miami (Rolle) falling to us at the #15 pick.

My questions to the Planet.

Do you think King Carl will pull the trigger and make a deal to bring in one of these players to help our defense?

Personally I think Surtain will be part of the deal that brings Edgerrin James to Miami, Law could be a possibility but his age and the size of the contract is certainly a turn off.

I think it is a bit naive to think that either Johnson or Rolle will be available with pick #15.

Gaz

02-02-2005, 01:49 PM

No.

Law or Surtain would be a foolish waste of money under the new regime.

Rolle and Johnson will be gone by the time we draft.

xoxo~
Gaz
Would be THRILLED if Johnson fell to #15.

HC_Chief

02-02-2005, 01:52 PM

Surtain is 28 yrs old, and a much better CB than any we've had since Hasty. If Miami will take a #2 in trade, he would be a brilliant addition.

BigRedChief

02-02-2005, 02:43 PM

Surtain is 28 yrs old, and a much better CB than any we've had since Hasty. If Miami will take a #2 in trade, he would be a brilliant addition.

A no brainer. Surtain for a 2nd rounder. :clap:

go bo

02-02-2005, 02:50 PM

where is the "no, carl is too stupid" option?

i voted no, but not because of any alleged talent...

Spicy McHaggis

02-02-2005, 03:39 PM

Personally I think Surtain will be part of the deal that brings Edgerrin James to Miami, Law could be a possibility but his age and the size of the contract is certainly a turn off.

I think it is a bit naive to think that either Johnson or Rolle will be available with pick #15.

Isn't James an UFA? He could just sign with Miami and they wouldn't have to give anything up for him.

BigRedChief

02-03-2005, 12:02 AM

where is the "no, carl is too stupid" option?

i voted no, but not because of any alleged talent...

Sorry once a poll is posted I can't go back and change it. But I agree king Carl has done some pretty stupid moves lately.

Miles

02-03-2005, 12:06 AM

Isn't James an UFA? He could just sign with Miami and they wouldn't have to give anything up for him.

Indy will hit him with the franchise tag so any team that signs him has to give up 2 1st rounders. Though any team wanting to sign him can work out a deal with Indy for less compensation than that (including players insted of picks).

Spicy McHaggis

02-03-2005, 12:16 AM

Man f- the Colts. How can they have cash to play with after the Harrison and Manning contracts? The Chiefs should have a fat pocket book to pay out.

Miles

02-03-2005, 12:30 AM

Man f- the Colts. How can they have cash to play with after the Harrison and Manning contracts? The Chiefs should have a fat pocket book to pay out.

Their D is loaded with young cheap players. While its shitty, as far as i know they dont have the bad contracts like we do.

Manila-Chief

02-03-2005, 04:46 AM

where is the "no, carl is too stupid" option?

i voted no, but not because of any alleged talent...

You are correct ... there should be another option. I voted no because I think that is what will happen.

I don't think we will get a top CB. The 2 CB's you mention may not even get onto the open market. But, I don't look for Kingless to sign any top quality D players. I hope I have to get back on here and eat my words because I believe we need a couple or 3 top shelf D tallent .... and not just a bunch of also rans like he usually signs.

In the draft ... I think both will be gone when we draft. That will not be his fault. But, Kingless could pass over one of them if there is another D player the Chiefs have rated higher. If it is a genuine rating then I'll be okay with it. But, none of this ... "we found a gem in the rough" ... stuff that they have given us the last couple of years.

BigRedChief

02-03-2005, 09:44 AM

I think Law and Surtain will both have new teams next year.

I don't think Johnson will make it out of the top ten but Rolle may fall to us if not Pollack should be there and I'm okay with that pick also.

You are correct ... there should be another option. I voted no because I think that is what will happen.

I don't think we will get a top CB. The 2 CB's you mention may not even get onto the open market. But, I don't look for Kingless to sign any top quality D players. I hope I have to get back on here and eat my words because I believe we need a couple or 3 top shelf D tallent .... and not just a bunch of also rans like he usually signs.

In the draft ... I think both will be gone when we draft. That will not be his fault. But, Kingless could pass over one of them if there is another D player the Chiefs have rated higher. If it is a genuine rating then I'll be okay with it. But, none of this ... "we found a gem in the rough" ... stuff that they have given us the last couple of years.

bricks

02-03-2005, 10:05 AM

Too be honest, I don't think either Law or Surtain will be Chiefs next season. I don't think Rolle, Johnson, or even Pollack will be drafted by the Chiefs. I think Carl is going to f*ck this whole thing up! :cuss:

If I lived in KC, I'd be supporting Whitlock. I'd be marching with him on March 2nd @ 1 Arrowhead Dr. And I'd be yelling and screaming at the top of my lungs just so those clowns get the message across that the proper transactions need to be made.

htismaqe

02-03-2005, 10:27 AM

bricks

02-03-2005, 10:49 AM

No.

Law or Surtain would be a foolish waste of money under the new regime.

Rolle and Johnson will be gone by the time we draft.

xoxo~
Gaz
Would be THRILLED if Johnson fell to #15.

So what do you recommend Gaz? I sure as hell don't want to see Bartee and McCleon suited up to play corner for us next season. And, you know they don't come any better than Law or Surtain when it comes to CB. They are la creme de la creme as you can get when it comes to the CB position. We can't elect to pass on this opportunity. We'll be shooting ourselves in the foot later on. Think about it for a second here, the Chiefs had the 31st ranked pass defense in the league this year, and 2 of the best CB's in the league are available?! I'm utterly stunned, and amazed how some of you elect to pass on the opportunity to NOT acquire Law or Surtain. Our major problem this year WAS pass defense. Every possible statistcal category we were horrible against the pass, why cause our CB sucked. Our pass rush was there. We were in the top 10-15 in sacks this year(wouldn't mind seeing an upgrade over Hicks though). It's simple, our corners can't cover well. 3rd down conversions we stunk. And yet some of you still elect to pass on acquiring Law or Surtain :shake: Despite the new regime, CB position is still played as whether the man could cover or not. Ok fine, the new regime makes it more challenging for the CB's to cover beyond 10 yards. Despite that, I witnessed the best of them adapting to the new regime very well. Champ Bailey proved to be a great addition for the Denver Broncos defense. He had his share of bad games during the latter half of the season, although, he performed consistently throughout the entire year, and was a factor in the Broncos defense. He did his job in the playoffs, holding Harrison to 1 rec for 5 yards. The other Denver Broncos CB didn't perform so well. It is only evident when Reggie Wayne has an outstanding performance, 10 rec, 210yds, 2TDs. With that being said, would you want to pass on the opportunity, and possibly see a team like the Broncos acquire the services of Law or Surtain? I don't know about you, but I sure as hell don't. Would you like to draft a corner? And witness that CB develop under the tutor, guidance of Giunta and Dean? Hell no! The answer is simple. We need a CB that can play. So don't delay acquire either Law or Surtain today.

xoxo,
no love loss here Gaz, bricks just disagrees with you ;)

Chan93lx50

02-03-2005, 11:01 AM

So what do you recommend Gaz? I sure as hell don't want to see Bartee and McCleon suited up to play corner for us next season. And, you know they don't come any better than Law or Surtain when it comes to CB. They are la creme de la creme as you can get when it comes to the CB position. We can't elect to pass on this opportunity. We'll be shooting ourselves in the foot later on. Think about it for a second here, the Chiefs had the 31st ranked pass defense in the league this year, and 2 of the best CB's in the league are available?! I'm utterly stunned, and amazed how some of you elect to pass on the opportunity to NOT acquire Law or Surtain. Our major problem this year WAS pass defense. Every possible statistcal category we were horrible against the pass, why cause our CB sucked. Our pass rush was there. We were in the top 10-15 in sacks this year(wouldn't mind seeing an upgrade over Hicks though). It's simple, our corners can't cover well. 3rd down conversions we stunk. And yet some of you still elect to pass on acquiring Law or Surtain :shake: Despite the new regime, CB position is still played as whether the man could cover or not. Ok fine, the new regime makes it more challenging for the CB's to cover beyond 10 yards. Despite that, I witnessed the best of them adapting to the new regime very well. Champ Bailey proved to be a great addition for the Denver Broncos defense. He had his share of bad games during the latter half of the season, although, he performed consistently throughout the entire year, and was a factor in the Broncos defense. He did his job in the playoffs, holding Harrison to 1 rec for 5 yards. The other Denver Broncos CB didn't perform so well. It is only evident when Reggie Wayne has an outstanding performance, 10 rec, 210yds, 2TDs. With that being said, would you want to pass on the opportunity, and possibly see a team like the Broncos acquire the services of Law or Surtain? I don't know about you, but I sure as hell don't. Would you like to draft a corner? And witness that CB develop under the tutor, guidance of Giunta and Dean? Hell no! The answer is simple. We need a CB that can play. So don't delay acquire either Law or Surtain today.

xoxo,
no love loss here Gaz, bricks just disagrees with you ;)

I agree with you bricks, I would hate to see Giunta tutor our 1st round CB, I would rather see a seasoned vet back in the CB position.

But on the other hand CP will probably sit on his thumb again, and the donkeys will have Law or Surtain, w/ Bailey

Chiefnj

02-03-2005, 11:06 AM

SOME transactions need to be made, yes.

"Proper"? Are you a professional scout? How do you know what constitutes "proper"?

Professional, or not, "proper" does not include resigning Bartee.

Surtain for a 2nd round pick seems like an excellent move. He is at his peak right now and hasn't suffered any major injuries that I am aware of. The Chiefs will have to spend a first day's draft choice (1st, 2nd or 3rd if they give up day 2 in exchange for it) for a corner anyway. A first round CB will likely cost a good deal of money anyway so the team won't be saving all that much in comparison to Surtain. Before anyone mentions his 8 million current contract, he going to have to renegotiate a long term deal before any trade is consummated. I think the benefit greatly outweighs the risk in Surtain's situation. You also can't ignore the fact that for whatever reason the Chiefs 2nd round picks have been somewhat atrocious.

BigChiefFan

02-03-2005, 11:10 AM

Man f- the Colts. How can they have cash to play with after the Harrison and Manning contracts? The Chiefs should have a fat pocket book to pay out.
They, UNLIKE the Chiefs, don't mind paying the HUGE signing bonuses on players they believe are worthy of of top-tier contracts. They realize it IS a business, but they also realize it's an INVESTMENT, in which you have to be willing to spend money on players you believe set your franchise apart.

Look at Priest Holmes' signing bonus (the Chiefs highest signing bonus in the history of the team) and compare it to Manning's and you'll see why the excuses are doled out every year from the Chief's FO. Lamar doesn't like to make the HUGE investment in signing bonuses, so it takes more BASE salary to land players and affects the cap differently.

BigChiefFan

02-03-2005, 11:12 AM

Surtain is a stud. He reminds me alot of a young, James Hasty. It would be a given if we traded with the Dolphins we would work out a friendly contract because he is slated to make an enormous amount this year.

bricks

02-03-2005, 11:20 AM

SOME transactions need to be made, yes.

"Proper"? Are you a professional scout? How do you know what constitutes "proper"?

no, no. Not some. MAJOR transactions need to be made. Remember the Chiefs defense is a laughing stock. Major adjustments are necessary to improve the products on the field. Some isn't good enough, major is. The transactions have to come in the form of every possible position on defense. In this order: DB, LB, DL. I really don't know what constitutes proper? I don't know how to answer your question. I'll try to put it into a simple perspective, I guess. I would like to see our team become aware of our weaknesses in order and addressing them through the likes of FA, trade, draft.
Whether they get the right players or not remains obscure. All I'm saying is, the weaknesses on our team are obvious, CB, LB, DE. I would enjoy winessing fans enforcing the issue across to 1 Arrowhead Dr :thumb: Of course, not ever fan will agree with me. But, I think it does make sense to enforce the issue, and address our needs. Especially, after NO transactions were made last year, and the fact we witnessed our team not make the playoffs 7 of the last 8 years, and, not win a playoff game in 12 years. Also, to keep hearing constant excuses time and time again from the head coach and the FO is very tiring and sickening as a fan. It gives us plenty of reason to express our frustration and anger towards this organization. Something needs to be done. That's why I would support Whitlock! It makes sense.

htismaqe

02-03-2005, 11:33 AM

It all comes down to value.

Do you pay Surtain $15M up front (and give up a 2nd-rounder for him) when you can get Gary Baxter for half that?

The simple fact is this:

The current state of the NFL reduces the delta in effectiveness between the "creme de la creme" and that 2nd-tier to virtually ZERO. Why pay double for a guy that's NOT going to provide double the production? In fact, why pay double to a guy who might provide a 5% improvement?

We need GOOD corners, but we don't need GREAT corners.

In the end, we better shore up the run defense before we do anything else, because that's what prevents teams from competing for Super Bowls.

htismaqe

02-03-2005, 11:36 AM

no, no. Not some. MAJOR transactions need to be made. Remember the Chiefs defense is a laughing stock. Major adjustments are necessary to improve the products on the field. Some isn't good enough, major is. The transactions have to come in the form of every possible position on defense. In this order: DB, LB, DL. I really don't know what constitutes proper? I don't know how to answer your question. I'll try to put it into a simple perspective, I guess. I would like to see our team become aware of our weaknesses in order and addressing them through the likes of FA, trade, draft.
Whether they get the right players or not remains obscure. All I'm saying is, the weaknesses on our team are obvious, CB, LB, DE. I would enjoy winessing fans enforcing the issue across to 1 Arrowhead Dr :thumb: Of course, not ever fan will agree with me. But, I think it does make sense to enforce the issue, and address our needs. Especially, after NO transactions were made last year, and the fact we witnessed our team not make the playoffs 7 of the last 8 years, and, not win a playoff game in 12 years. Also, to keep hearing constant excuses time and time again from the head coach and the FO is very tiring and sickening as a fan. It gives us plenty of reason to express our frustration and anger towards this organization. Something needs to be done. That's why I would support Whitlock! It makes sense.

OK, "ALOT" of changes need to be made. I'm not quibbling over that. We can even leave out the word "some" -- it's simple, changes need to be made.

However, you used the word "proper" implying that signing one of these guys is something the Chiefs MUST do.

I don't at all agree.

We have significant needs in our front 7 that, unaddressed, will result in yet another losing season, even if we sign Patrick Surtain.

Chiefnj

02-03-2005, 11:49 AM

Give me Hartwell, Surtain and a defensive pick in the first round like Pollack and I'll call it a successful off-season in which the proper moves were made.

htismaqe

02-03-2005, 11:50 AM

Give me Hartwell, Surtain and a defensive pick in the first round like Pollack and I'll call it a successful off-season in which the proper moves were made.

Give me Hartwell, Baxter, and defensive pick in the first 2 rounds and I'd call it MORE successful.

bricks

02-03-2005, 11:56 AM

Every fan has there own opinion :) Give me Law or Surtain at CB. Peterson at LB. And Pollack as our DE. And I'll be satisfied.

htismaqe

02-03-2005, 12:12 PM

Every fan has there own opinion :) Give me Law or Surtain at CB. Peterson at LB. And Pollack as our DE. And I'll be satisfied.

That's completely assinine.

No team in the NFL, let alone the Chiefs, is going to shell out the cash that will be needed for Law (or Surtain) AND Julian Peterson.

You've basically set the bar so high that it's out of reach.

BigRedChief

02-03-2005, 12:22 PM

Every fan has there own opinion :) Give me Law or Surtain at CB. Peterson at LB. And Pollack as our DE. And I'll be satisfied.

Yeah its fun to dream in the off season

R&GHomer

02-03-2005, 12:34 PM

bricks

02-03-2005, 12:58 PM

That's completely assinine.

No team in the NFL, let alone the Chiefs, is going to shell out the cash that will be needed for Law (or Surtain) AND Julian Peterson.

You've basically set the bar so high that it's out of reach.

No team eh? The Eagles signed Kearse, and traded for and signed Owens this past off-season, look what happened? I don't wanna hear, "oh well Owens didn't play for them in the playoffs?" He was a major contributor as to where the Eagles stand today. Owens had an outstanding season, and was a major factor as to why the Eagles had a 13-3 record and home field advantage throughout the playoffs. Fine, he didn't play in the playoffs. What he did provide the team was enough swagger, confidence to get them over the hump and into the SB. Suddenly, McNabb's game got better, the Eagles receivers started to believe, and as an overall result the teams overall play improved drastically. Just think and imagine had the Eagles not acquired Owens services, and elected to stay status quo, where would that team be? In the SB? I think not. the difference between the Chiefs and Eagles, is, the Eagles didn't compromise. They went out and bettered their team. Is that sufficient amount of evidence and proof on how, as to why the same should apply for the Chiefs this off-season?

The Chiefs should resemble on what the Eagles did, utilize there examples on how to get the job done on improving a franchise. When you need MAJOR defensive help, and, your coaching staff, FO, and most of your players are gone after the 2005 season, I don't see know any reason as to why we shouldn't go balls to the wall in upgrading our defensive personnel. The bar is never out of reach. There are plenty of ways that this could be done. The salary cap is going up this year, and that's good news. Players can take pay cuts. I'm sure cap space will be cleared when Holliday and Morton are gone. The way contracts are negotiated, etc. It can be done. It'll be challenging, but, it can be done.

*P.S. Even better look at the Chiefs last off-season, in contrast to Eagles?
I hope this makes my point clear. The Chiefs need a new mind-set. Instead of, settling for mediocrty. Why not say, the heck with this? We want a "GOOD DEFENSE!" Settling for mediocry, expect less. Going for the best? Expect improvements. This is a really good reason as to why I would support Whitlock in the march at 1 Arrowhead Dr. on March 2nd.

Chiefnj

02-03-2005, 01:03 PM

Give me Hartwell, Baxter, and defensive pick in the first 2 rounds and I'd call it MORE successful.

History indicates that you would be foolish to rely on that 2nd round pick.

Spicy McHaggis

02-03-2005, 01:06 PM

No team eh? The Eagles signed Kearse, and traded for and signed Owens this past off-season, look what happened? I don't wanna hear, "oh well Owens didn't play for them in the playoffs?" He was a major contributor as to where the Eagles stand today. Owens had an outstanding season, and was a major factor as to why the Eagles had a 13-3 record and home field advantage throughout the playoffs. Fine, he didn't play in the playoffs. What he did provide the team was enough swagger, confidence to get them over the hump and into the SB. Suddenly, McNabb's game got better, the Eagles receivers started to believe, and as an overall result the teams overall play improved drastically. Just think and imagine had the Eagles not acquired Owens services, and elected to stay status quo, where would that team be? In the SB? I think not. the difference between the Chiefs and Eagles, is, the Eagles didn't compromise. They went out and bettered their team. Is that sufficient amount of evidence and proof on how, as to why the same should apply for the Chiefs this off-season?

The Chiefs should resemble on what the Eagles did, utilize there examples on how to get the job done on improving a franchise. When you need MAJOR defensive help, and, your coaching staff, FO, and most of your players are gone after the 2005 season, I don't see know any reason as to why we shouldn't go balls to the wall in upgrading our defensive personnel. The bar is never out of reach. There are plenty of ways that this could be done. The salary cap is going up this year, and that's good news. Players can take pay cuts. I'm sure cap space will be cleared when Holliday and Morton are gone. The way contracts are negotiated, etc. It can be done. It'll be challenging, but, it can be done.

*P.S. Even better look at the Chiefs last off-season, in contrast to Eagles?
I hope this makes my point clear. The Chiefs need a new mind-set. Instead of, settling for mediocrty. Why not say, the heck with this? We want a "GOOD DEFENSE!" Settling for mediocry, expect less. Going for the best? Expect improvements. This is a really good reason as to why I would support Whitlock in the march at 1 Arrowhead Dr. on March 2nd.

Owens didn't play for them in the playoffs.

bricks

02-03-2005, 01:11 PM

Yeah its fun to dream in the off season

Why dream? The Chiefs FO has to convert these dreams into a reality. Dreaming and wishful thinking will get us nowhere. We have to go for it.

htismaqe

02-03-2005, 01:23 PM

Why dream? The Chiefs FO has to convert these dreams into a reality. Dreaming and wishful thinking will get us nowhere. We have to go for it.

No we don't.

The stadium is full and the merchandise is selling. There's no reason for them to change.

Mr. Laz

02-03-2005, 10:27 PM

That's completely assinine.

No team in the NFL, let alone the Chiefs, is going to shell out the cash that will be needed for Law (or Surtain) AND Julian Peterson.

You've basically set the bar so high that it's out of reach.
i disagree...

i believe philly did pretty much just that last year

Terrell Owens and Javon Kearse

washington has done similiar things in the past iirc

didn't buffalo do a similiar thing a few year back when they got takeo spikes from cincy and revamped their defense basically in 1 year?

it's the chiefs that won't do it... you can't really include the rest of the league.

Inspector

02-03-2005, 10:37 PM

No.

Law or Surtain would be a foolish waste of money under the new regime.

Rolle and Johnson will be gone by the time we draft.

xoxo~
Gaz
Would be THRILLED if Johnson fell to #15.

Yep, I was thinking the same thing.

Great minds...........

htismaqe

02-04-2005, 09:02 AM

i disagree...

i believe philly did pretty much just that last year

Terrell Owens and Javon Kearse

washington has done similiar things in the past iirc

didn't buffalo do a similiar thing a few year back when they got takeo spikes from cincy and revamped their defense basically in 1 year?

it's the chiefs that won't do it... you can't really include the rest of the league.

May teams acquire multiple high-dollar free agents in one offseason.

NOBODY acquires more than one of the HIGHEST-dollar free agents at their position in one offseason.

Terrell Owens was a trade and didn't command the salary that he could have on the free agent market, which changes that scenario.