Flanagan: Gretz fires back at his HOF presentation critics

[tk13]

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascitystar/sports/10860125.htm

Gretz says Hall of Fame presentation critics have no clue

JEFFREY FLANAGAN


KCFX's Bob Gretz took a couple of days off after a busy weekend that included the Pro Football Hall of Fame vote on Saturday and the Super Bowl on Sunday.

Now that he's back in town, he's firing back at his critics.

First up is Sports Illustrated's Paul Zimmerman, who attacked Gretz's presentation on Derrick Thomas to the Hall of Fame voters and basically suggested that Gretz blew Thomas' chances of gaining entry. Gretz told me Wednesday that he stands by that presentation and that Zimmerman broke the most revered rule among Hall of Fame voters.

“The one thing we're told, the one rule that is stressed over and over and over,” Gretz said, “is that what is said in that room stays in that room. Certainly you can generalize your comments about what goes on in there, but you never attach names.

“I find it interesting that he's the one person who has emphasized that rule to everyone else over the years, yet he would break that rule himself.”

Gretz also responded to those in the Kansas City media who have piled on the criticism, as well as anyone in the Chiefs' front office who may have done so privately.

“If anyone out at Arrowhead has something they want to say to me,” Gretz said, “they know how to reach me. They certainly haven't hesitated in the past.

“As for some of the people (in the Kansas City media) who've said some things, I guess I'm not surprised. You consider the source in those individual cases.”

The controversy started after Gretz, Kansas City's Hall of Fame voting representative, made his presentation of Thomas on Saturday to the 38 other voters. Thomas subsequently did not receive enough votes to make the Hall.

Zimmerman, also a Hall of Fame voter, then wrote that Gretz made the mistake of mentioning that some people questioned Thomas' skills as an all-round linebacker. “Once that was in the voter's mind,” Zimmerman wrote, “that (ended) Thomas' chances.”

“What Zimmerman doesn't get is that basically my entire presentation was based on debunking the myth that Derrick wasn't an all-round linebacker,” Gretz said. “I rattled off testimonials from Marv Levy and Bill Cowher and Marty Schottenheimer and Dan Reeves and Jim Kelly.

“In fact, since Zimmerman wrote what he wrote, I've had three phone messages from other voters, and I won't reveal their names, who've said that the presentation is what changed their minds to go ahead and vote for Derrick.

“What's clear to me, if you've ever read anything (by Zimmerman), is that he's the one who had his mind made up not to vote for Derrick before we even started.”

***

That late touchdown by the Philadelphia Eagles didn't exactly rescue the Eagles, but it did wonders for the Nevada sports books.

The Las Vegas Review-Journal reported that about $90.8 million was wagered on Super Bowl XXXIX and that the state's 173 sports books won a record $15.4 million. Last year, the sports books won $12.4 million.

Make that 10 in a row that the sports books have come out on top.

The last time the books lost? That was in 1995, when the 49ers blasted the Chargers, and the sports books lost $396,674.

The largest bet on the Super Bowl appeared to come at the MGM Mirage, where someone tossed down $550,000 on the Patriots as a seven-point favorite.

And while the economy continues to struggle, betting hasn't. Total amounts wagered have gone up each of the last four years.

***

Just a reminder to satellite subscribers: You will once again get the Royals Sports Television Network on DirecTV and Dish Network, and it will be on your FSN Midwest channel.

Also, cable and satellite subscribers in the Joplin, Springfield and Columbia/Jefferson City regions of Missouri will receive 40 telecasts because of timing conflicts with St. Louis Cardinals telecasts on FSN Midwest.

[Phobia]

Based upon Gretz's many years of disappointing print "presentations" to Chiefs fans, I'm not surprised his DT presentation sucked. The fact that Flanagan is fighting his battles is even more pathetic.

Finally, as much as I dislike Dr. Z - he didn't NAME Gretz. He said "the person presenting for DT".

When did journalists get so shitty? Are all HOF voters like Peter King, Dr. Z, and Gretz? If so, maybe the HOF isn't such an honor afterall....

[tk13]

Based upon Gretz's many years of disappointing print "presentations" to Chiefs fans, I'm not surprised his DT presentation sucked. The fact that Flanagan is fighting his battles is even more pathetic.

Finally, as much as I dislike Dr. Z - he didn't NAME Gretz. He said "the person presenting for DT".

When did journalists get so shitty? Are all HOF voters like Peter King, Dr. Z, and Gretz? If so, maybe the HOF isn't such an honor afterall....
Don't forget Woody Paige!

[Miles]

Don't forget Woody Paige!

Yeah his vote is critical since he is such an established sportswriter ;)

Though if you dont take him seriously he is pretty funny. Kind of like the Bill Walton of sportswriters.

[tk13]

Actually the other day on ESPN I saw Woody say he thinks it might not be a bad idea to expand the committee or bring in new blood because he thinks personal opinions and vendettas among other things get in the way too often....

[Pants]

Yeah his vote is critical since he is such an established sportswriter ;)

Though if you dont take him seriously he is pretty funny. Kind of like the Bill Walton of sportswriters.

He's pretty cool on Cold Pizza and he's the funniest on Around the Horn. Too bad both shows suck c*ck.

[Phobia]

Don't forget Woody Paige!

It sounds like they need to clear the entire committee and start fresh with journalists who don't have a new axe to grind every year. How do you get nominated to vote in the HOF committee? I'll bet that room is like a bunch of old women fighting over a bridge game and Peter King is at the head of the table, wiping Plummerjuice out of his ample cleavage.

Why is Peter King not managing a McDonalds in Arkansas? Can anybody provide me a logical explanation for this mind boggling question?

[Miles]

Actually the other day on ESPN I saw Woody say he thinks it might not be a bad idea to expand the committee or bring in new blood because he thinks personal opinions and vendettas among other things get in the way too often....

That actually makes a lot of sense. If you can manage to dig past most of his BS without being too annoying he can make some good points.

[tk13]

Yeah he was darn near raging furious that Michael Irvin and Harry Carson didn't get in.... so take that for what it's worth. :)

[Miles]

Yeah he was darn near raging furious that Michael Irvin and Harry Carson didn't get in.... so take that for what it's worth. :)

Yeah, that leads into the another flaw of the system. Once a former player becomes a commentator/journalist the others in the field always seem to remember their playing career's as being much better than they acually were. Kind of collectivly blowing each other.

[tk13]

Yeah, that leads into the another flaw of the system. Once a former player becomes a commentator/journalist the others in the field always seem to remember their playing career's as being much better than they acually were. Kind of collectivly blowing each other.
Yeah, I think I said something about that the other day, it's one of my biggest worries about DT.... he's no longer with us to promote himself like Irvin or others could, and it's not like you're going to be seeing him over and over on those 30 minute Super Bowl "highlight" shows on ESPN like Irvin or Carson or Monk.

[Hammock Parties]

Um, can you folks think of anyone better to select HOFers than people that have been around and inside the game for years on end?

You can't leave it up to the fans or the players....then it would be the Pro Bowl Hall of Fame.

[Phobia]

Actually the other day on ESPN I saw Woody say he thinks it might not be a bad idea to expand the committee or bring in new blood because he thinks personal opinions and vendettas among other things get in the way too often....

Between Peter King and Bob Gretz, can you even fathom the catering bill during the HOF committee voting? I'd wager they can knock out fried chicken faster than KFC can push it out the drive through window.

[Phobia]

Um, can you folks think of anyone better to select HOFers than people that have been around and inside the game for years on end?

I dunno. But, it's sad that DT didn't make the final cut because Gretz stuffed the last bavarian cream pastry in his cakehole before Peter King got a chance at it.

[Hammock Parties]

I dunno. But, it's sad that DT didn't make the final cut because Gretz stuffed the last bavarian cream pastry in his cakehole before Peter King got a chance at it.

ROFL

DT didn't deserve the final cut....he'll get in though.

[Pants]

I dunno. But, it's sad that DT didn't make the final cut because Gretz stuffed the last bavarian cream pastry in his cakehole before Peter King got a chance at it.

ROFL

Fat f*cks...

[Manila-Chief]

Based upon Gretz's many years of disappointing print "presentations" to Chiefs fans, I'm not surprised his DT presentation sucked. The fact that Flanagan is fighting his battles is even more pathetic.

Finally, as much as I dislike Dr. Z - he didn't NAME Gretz. He said "the person presenting for DT".

When did journalists get so shitty? Are all HOF voters like Peter King, Dr. Z, and Gretz? If so, maybe the HOF isn't such an honor afterall....

You expressed exactly what I've been thinking. I didn't mind Gretz being one of those doing the selecting until I discovered there are only 39 and he is the only one from K.C.

Doesn't baseball have a larger selecting group.

In no way do I see Gretz as a journalist. He is a mouth piece for the Chiefs organization. And, I think the others mentioned on here are not journalists ... they are commentators.

I'd like to have the HOF voters working the games and viewing them objectively. I'm not sure how a reporter gets to be part of the panel ... but, if the teams have anything to do with the selection ... then I certainly know why Gretz is there.

I'd rather have Flanagan than Gretz. He will be a lot more objective.

I'm with you ... this raises a big cloud over the whole process and really diminishes the value of a player being in the HOF.... And, my comments are not because DT didn't make it. I think it is a sham. I think there are still several of the older players who ought to be in it... and we have at least a couple of them... On both sides of the ball.

[DaWolf]

I'd rather have Flanagan than Gretz. He will be a lot more objective.


Flanagan? That guy has as many if not more agendas than anyone else, and he's not afraid to use his column to push it. The guy didn't think Wade Boggs was a hall of famer, and Boggs is one of the best hitters of his era. He argued that all Boggs did was hit singles. With that kind of lame thinking, if he were from anywere other than KC, he'd probably be arguing that all DT did was sack the QB.

One thing Gretz is right about, and that is Zimmerman is full of crap. He had already made his mind up a long time ago about his not voting DT into the HOF, and had mentioned it before in some of his columns. So nothing Gretz said was gonna change his mind...

[Herzig]

Why is Peter King not managing a McDonalds in Arkansas? Can anybody provide me a logical explanation for this mind boggling question?


Hey...hey...now that's too far there mister...My brother in law manages/owns a McDonald's in Arkansas(Seriously)!!....and he, Sir, is no Peter King!

[siberian khatru]

“If anyone out at Arrowhead has something they want to say to me,” Gretz said, “they know how to reach me."

Yeah, just look up Carl's ass.

[nmt1]

In no way do I see Gretz as a journalist. He is a mouth piece for the Chiefs organization.

Gretz works for KCFX and he's as much a journalist as Jason Whitlock.

[Chief Henry]

It sounds like they need to clear the entire committee and start fresh with journalists who don't have a new axe to grind every year. How do you get nominated to vote in the HOF committee? I'll bet that room is like a bunch of old women fighting over a bridge game and Peter King is at the head of the table, wiping Plummerjuice out of his ample cleavage.

Why is Peter King not managing a McDonalds in Arkansas? Can anybody provide me a logical explanation for this mind boggling question?



Amen to that and a rep heading your way...

[Ultra Peanut]

Those critics are classless and deranged.

[BigRedChief]

They are both mouthpieces of the Chiefs pr machine nothing more. They are not "journalists". At least Thwitlock is an "opinion" even though its mostly wrong its still an opinion. These guys write as "journalists". They need blow torches to remove their lips from King Carl's backside.

King Carl should have sent someone with prestige to sway the voters. Bobby Bell, Lanier, Lenny anyone with some prestige instead of one of his stooges.

[htismaqe]

No matter how you feel about Gretz, there is no denying his last quote:

“What's clear to me, if you've ever read anything (by Zimmerman), is that he's the one who had his mind made up not to vote for Derrick before we even started.”

It's obvious to all of us who were listening and reading in the days before the vote - Dr. Z had already made up his mind before Gretz ever said anything...

[TEX]

The deal is that as a professional journalist, Gretz broke a well known PR rule and that is NEVER say anything negative about what you're trying to sell under any circumstances. :shake:

But Gretz is right in that Zimmerman no doubt already had his mind made up before he saw the presentation.

[DaWolf]

The deal is that as a professional journalist, Gretz broke a well known PR rule and that is NEVER say anything negative about what you're trying to sell under any circumstances. :shake:
Honestly though from the sounds of it I would have approached it in a similar manner. Every article in the Star you read about whether DT makes it or not centered around these journalists questioning whether DT was nothing more than a pass rusher. I don't think it's worth it to try and ignore the question. The pre-superbowl interviews showed that it was already on voters' minds, and so Gretz tackled it head on and tried to debunk it. I think Zimmerman is full of BS when he says that when Gretz mentioned it then it got put in voters minds. It was already there...

[Iowanian]

I'll bet ole' Pork Chop will post an article calling them "classless and deranged and in need of help"

[htismaqe]

Honestly though from the sounds of it I would have approached it in a similar manner. Every article in the Star you read about whether DT makes it or not centered around these journalists questioning whether DT was nothing more than a pass rusher. I don't think it's worth it to try and ignore the question. The pre-superbowl interviews showed that it was already on voters' minds, and so Gretz tackled it head on and tried to debunk it. I think Zimmerman is full of BS when he says that when Gretz mentioned it then it got put in voters minds. It was already there...

I agree 100%.

If he hadn't have brought up the "pass rusher vs. complete LB" argument, everybody in KC would be bitching because DT didn't make the HoF and Gretz is at fault because he failed to prove that DT wasn't just a pass rusher.

Gretz is in a no-win situation...DT wasn't getting in no matter what he said.

[WilliamTheIrish]

Yeah, just look up Carl's ass.


Carl must have more room in there than Steve McQueen in Papillion.

[BigRedChief]

Gretz works for KCFX and he's as much a journalist as Jason Whitlock.

WTF? What planet are you on? He's nothing more than a Chiefs pr tool.

[htismaqe]

WTF? What planet are you on? He's nothing more than a Chiefs pr tool.

Do you really want to start this again?

[nmt1]

WTF? What planet are you on? He's nothing more than a Chiefs pr tool.

Does he or does he not work for KCFX?

[KCTitus]

I havent read the thread, but am I to understand that Gretz's critics are suggesting he wasnt homer 'enough' to get DT in the HOF?

[Phobia]

I havent read the thread

Then why does any supposition from you matter?

[KCTitus]

Then why does any supposition from you matter?

Ahhh. so I was right, thanks for the confirm.

[Phobia]

Ahhh. so I was right, thanks for the confirm.

Not necessarily. I read "I haven't read this thread" and was reminded of a time when tommykat would post in a 200 post thread and ask for a synopsis. If you haven't read the thread, you should possibly read it and then offer up your opinion. Unless your agenda is to criticize every amateur who formulates a contrary opinion towards somebody who represents the Chiefs organization. Then, it doesn't really matter if you read the threads or not, so long as we really understand from where you're coming....

[nmt1]

Not necessarily. I read "I haven't read this thread" and was reminded of a time when tommykat would post in a 200 post thread and ask for a synopsis. If you haven't read the thread, you should possibly read it and then offer up your opinion. Unless your agenda is to criticize every amateur who formulates a contrary opinion towards somebody who represents the Chiefs organization. Then, it doesn't really matter if you read the threads or not, so long as we really understand from where you're coming....

Shouldn't it be the same if you have the exact opposite agenda as well?

[shaneo69]

I havent read the thread, but am I to understand that Gretz's critics are suggesting he wasnt homer 'enough' to get DT in the HOF?

No, Gretz's critics are merely suggesting that he was too stupid to get DT in the HoF. Should've been a slam dunk.

[KCTitus]

Not necessarily. I read "I haven't read this thread" and was reminded of a time when tommykat would post in a 200 post thread and ask for a synopsis. If you haven't read the thread, you should possibly read it and then offer up your opinion. Unless your agenda is to criticize every amateur who formulates a contrary opinion towards somebody who represents the Chiefs organization. Then, it doesn't really matter if you read the threads or not, so long as we really understand from where you're coming....

I appreciate the feedback on my posting habits...obviously 4.5 years of my posting on this particular BB has offered me no leeway with respect to when I should or should offer my thoughts.

I had no idea that the BB was becoming more formal as to who was to offer opinions when, this obviously was laid out during a time that I wasnt reading...*gasp* another thread I didnt bother to read. I beg the mods forgiveness for offering up yet another uninformed opinion.

Let's just say, I got it...people 'round here dont like Gretz because he's Gretz and it's really no more difficult than that.

[nmt1]

No, Gretz's critics are merely suggesting that he was too stupid to get DT in the HoF. Should've been a slam dunk.

So DT should get in the HoF ahead of guys who have better numbers than him like Richard Dent and Kevin Greene?
DT was a game changing player but he was also a one dimensional player. He had one interception in his entire career and he had a tendency to disappear in big games, like the playoffs.
His election to the HoF was no where near a slam dunk.

[KCTitus]

No, Gretz's critics are merely suggesting that he was too stupid to get DT in the HoF. Should've been a slam dunk.

A slam dunk? You're kidding right? First time Ive read that particular tidbit of info...then again Ive been exposed as having not read every thread on this BB, so my opinion might be faulty.

[Phobia]

Shouldn't it be the same if you have the exact opposite agenda as well?

I dunno. Why post at all, then. If everybody has an agenda either for or against the Chiefs and nobody is going to waver on their opinion - what is the point of posting. Are you suggesting that nobody has an open mind?

[The Bad Guy]

Gretz is a fat, miserable old bag. Look at him at RF and you will see a man who must hate life.

I love it, when someone in the media criticizes Gretz or any other Chiefs head honcho, he goes on to say "you consider the source."

It's bullshit. Gretz gets criticized for the mistakes he made in the presentation - he failed at convincing the HOF committe that DT deserved to be in the hall as an all-around LB, and yet he singles out Zimmerman for the "code" he broke.

Gretz has the mentality of every other goon at One Arrowhead Drive that blames others for their failures.

I find it hard to believe that all the talented writers in KC couldn't make a better presentation than Gretz. I've read Gretz homer shit for the last 6-7 years and his stuff is always off-base and repeated BS.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is how DT's presentation came across either.

Zimmerman is one man, and obviously more than Zimmerman voted against DT.

[Phobia]

No, Gretz's critics are merely suggesting that he was too stupid to get DT in the HoF. Should've been a slam dunk.

I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm cracking on Gretz for the organized defense by his cronies. I haven't seen anything defended this well in KC since the mid-90's.

[Chiefnj]

I haven't seen anything defended this well in KC since the mid-90's.

ROFL

[KCTitus]

...Gretz gets criticized for the mistakes he made in the presentation - he failed at convincing the HOF committe that DT deserved to be in the hall as an all-around LB...

Fair enough...but I think that task would be a challenge for a media person that you might even like. IMO, I didnt consider DT a first ballot HOF'er, so Im not suprised he didnt make it.

[Phobia]

I appreciate the feedback on my posting habits...obviously 4.5 years of my posting on this particular BB has offered me no leeway with respect to when I should or should offer my thoughts.

I had no idea that the BB was becoming more formal as to who was to offer opinions when, this obviously was laid out during a time that I wasnt reading...*gasp* another thread I didnt bother to read. I beg the mods forgiveness for offering up yet another uninformed opinion.

Let's just say, I got it...people 'round here dont like Gretz because he's Gretz and it's really no more difficult than that.

Come on. I don't poke my "badge" into people's faces to conform them to my opinion, so I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't imply otherwise. My opinion doesn't carry any more weight than any other on this board.

I'm suggesting that you read the thread before criticizing the message. Unless, of course, you're planning defend anybody associated with One Arrowhead for sport.

[KCTitus]

I'm suggesting that you read the thread before criticizing the message. Unless, of course, you're planning defend anybody associated with One Arrowhead for sport.

No, you're not suggesting that I read it first...you could care less. People here want to bag Gretz because he's Gretz and nothing more and the fact that I pointed it out while stating I hadnt bothered to read such blather prompted you to jump to respond.

I find it laughable that pointing out prevailing opinion for what it is, is considered defending 'anyone associateed with One Arrowhead' and I had thought you were above such tripe, but alas I was wrong.

[HC_Chief]

Gretz should eat Dr Z.

[nmt1]

I dunno. Why post at all, then. If everybody has an agenda either for or against the Chiefs and nobody is going to waver on their opinion - what is the point of posting. Are you suggesting that nobody has an open mind?

No, not at all. In fact, I'd guess there are many here that have open minds about a myriad of subjects. Many here are quick to marginalize what others think only because they don't agree with what that person. Just this week I've been called retarded, "special", childish and been accused of being someone I'm not and out of my mind all because I don't agree with what others are saying and don't buy into the soap opera/talk radio BS that's bandied about here.
I could just as easily have accused some of being unable to keep things in perspective due to their irrational hatred and anger for certain members of the Chiefs organization.

[htismaqe]

No, Gretz's critics are merely suggesting that he was too stupid to get DT in the HoF. Should've been a slam dunk.

It wasn't a slam dunk. To anyone who was paying attention, that became obvious a week before the actual vote, when at the very least, Peter King and Dr. Z both said they wouldn't vote for DT.

[Phobia]

No, you're not suggesting that I read it first...you could care less. People here want to bag Gretz because he's Gretz and nothing more and the fact that I pointed it out while stating I hadnt bothered to read such blather prompted you to jump to respond.

I find it laughable that pointing out prevailing opinion for what it is, is considered defending 'anyone associateed with One Arrowhead' and I had thought you were above such tripe, but alas I was wrong.

You're wrong. You aren't clairvoyant. Don't pretend to know what's in my head. I try hard to be impartial whether it's towards a member of this board or a member of the media. Hell, I'm one of the few on this board who can stomach Jason Whitlock and objectively determine whether I feel his opinion is correct or otherwise. Gretz has burned that bridge, though.

[htismaqe]

No, not at all. In fact, I'd guess there are many here that have open minds about a myriad of subjects. Many here are quick to marginalize what others think only because they don't agree with what that person. Just this week I've been called retarded, "special", childish and been accused of being someone I'm not and out of my mind all because I don't agree with what others are saying and don't buy into the soap opera/talk radio BS that's bandied about here.
I could just as easily have accused some of being unable to keep things in perspective due to their irrational hatred and anger for certain members of the Chiefs organization.

You just have to keep tearing people down, don't you?

[nmt1]

You just have to keep tearing people down, don't you?

I suppose, if one has terribly thin skin.

[Phobia]

No, not at all. In fact, I'd guess there are many here that have open minds about a myriad of subjects. Many here are quick to marginalize what others think only because they don't agree with what that person. Just this week I've been called retarded, "special", childish and been accused of being someone I'm not and out of my mind all because I don't agree with what others are saying and don't buy into the soap opera/talk radio BS that's bandied about here.
I could just as easily have accused some of being unable to keep things in perspective due to their irrational hatred and anger for certain members of the Chiefs organization.

I agree with everything in your first paragraph. It's sad that people can't debate the merits of a discussion without all that other stuff, idiot. ;)

Regarding your closing sentence, I guess that's possibly directed towards me. But to call my disdain "irrational" means you haven't been reading and fully understanding my posts - which is probably my fault. I'd also suggest that "hatred" is too strong a descriptor. I don't like Gretz because he's not objective. He's like the Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf of One Arrowhead. He's proven it for many years.

[nmt1]

I agree with everything in your first paragraph. It's sad that people can't debate the merits of a discussion without all that other stuff, idiot. ;)

Regarding your closing sentence, I guess that's possibly directed towards me. But to call my disdain "irrational" means you haven't been reading and fully understanding my posts - which is probably my fault. I'd also suggest that "hatred" is too strong a descriptor. I don't like Gretz because he's not objective. He's like the Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf of One Arrowhead. He's proven it for many years.

Actually my last sentence was not directed at you and the members of the Chiefs organization I was thinking of do not include Gretz though I don't think many are too quick to dismiss what he says.

[Phobia]

Actually my last sentence was not directed at you and the members of the Chiefs organization I was thinking of do not include Gretz though I don't think many are too quick to dismiss what he says.

Holy crap, that's one convoluted sentence. I'm confused.

[shaneo69]

So DT should get in the HoF ahead of guys who have better numbers than him like Richard Dent and Kevin Greene?
DT was a game changing player but he was also a one dimensional player. He had one interception in his entire career and he had a tendency to disappear in big games, like the playoffs.
His election to the HoF was no where near a slam dunk.

I've already debunked the myths about him being one-dimensional and not showing up in big games several times in the last week or so. I ain't gonna re-type it all over again.

[KCTitus]

You're wrong. You aren't clairvoyant. Don't pretend to know what's in my head. I try hard to be impartial whether it's towards a member of this board or a member of the media. Hell, I'm one of the few on this board who can stomach Jason Whitlock and objectively determine whether I feel his opinion is correct or otherwise. Gretz has burned that bridge, though.

No, never said I was clairvoyant...dont really need to be when you're so obvious about why you bothered to respond to my 'no matter' opinion. You and I have not exchanged posts in a couple of years and I realize that Ive touched an area that bothers you a great deal. Fine, hate on Gretz all you want, but IMO, that's not why DT didnt make the HOF on the first ballot.

There, wasnt that easy?

[htismaqe]

I've already debunked the myths about him being one-dimensional and not showing up in big games several times in the last week or so. I ain't gonna re-type it all over again.

It still wasn't a slam dunk, especially when 2 quite prominent members of the committee said they weren't inclined to vote for him several days prior to the actual presentation and vote.

[shaneo69]

You and I have not exchanged posts in a couple of years and I realize that Ive touched an area that bothers you a great deal. Fine, hate on Gretz all you want, but IMO, that's not why DT didnt make the HOF on the first ballot.

There, wasnt that easy?

Thanks for the pycho-babble. And from now on, we'll refrain from making fun of fat slobs like Gretz because we know it touches an area that bothers you a great deal.

[Phobia]

No, never said I was clairvoyant...dont really need to be when you're so obvious about why you bothered to respond to my 'no matter' opinion. You and I have not exchanged posts in a couple of years and I realize that Ive touched an area that bothers you a great deal. Fine, hate on Gretz all you want, but IMO, that's not why DT didnt make the HOF on the first ballot.

There, wasnt that easy?

Despite my dislike for Gretz (and anything I may have recently said cracking on him), I didn't expect DT to make it first ballot. My opinion is well documented since HOF discussions began. If by "exchanging posts" you mean openly disagreed - you may be right. It doesn't actually bother me that much - discussions regarding the Chiefs don't bother me much. But, when somebody (yourself) purports to know what a legitimate thread contains without reading it, that bothers me and I'm going to call them on it - whether it's you, tommykat, my mother, or otherwise.

[KCTitus]

But, when somebody (yourself) purports to know what a legitimate thread contains without reading it, that bothers me and I'm going to call them on it - whether it's you, tommykat, my mother, or otherwise.

And we're back to square one...Again, if the BB is now becoming formal on when or how I should offer my position, please forgive my not minding this new protocol because I dont read every thread--I dont have the time or the inclination.

[The Bad Guy]

I've blocked Titus because his drivel is redundant, but I see that he's continuing his ass-kissing Chief ways.

His lips must get sore.

[KCTitus]

Thanks for the pycho-babble. And from now on, we'll refrain from making fun of fat slobs like Gretz because we know it touches an area that bothers you a great deal.

Oh please dont...I will miss the humor of the prevailing opinion that the only reason DT didnt make the HOF was because of Gretz stupidity.

That's absolutely priceless and Im hoping that in years to come it will achieve the same status as DV drafting Lawrence Phillips, another fave of mine.

[KCTitus]

I've blocked Titus because his drivel is redundant, but I see that he's continuing his ass-kissing Chief ways.

His lips must get sore.

LOL...someone want to break the news that I actually agreed with The Bad Guy. What does that mean, then? That he's an ass kisser too?

[WilliamTheIrish]

I've already debunked the myths about him being one-dimensional and not showing up in big games several times in the last week or so. I ain't gonna re-type it all over again.

Personally I don't think you debunked a thing to anybody but yourself.

DT was a great player. But (and this is just my opinion) he wasn't a first ballot HoF'er.

It sucks that ther criteria for making it in seems to be you need a SB, but that's the way it is.

I think the f*cks that are doing the voting are so wrapped up in how big their 'personalities' are, they forget what their charged with.

[htismaqe]

Thanks for the pycho-babble. And from now on, we'll refrain from making fun of fat slobs like Gretz because we know it touches an area that bothers you a great deal.

I'm really not comfortable with all of this talk of "touching" certain "areas"...

:D

[Taco John]

[url]Zimmerman, also a Hall of Fame voter, then wrote that Gretz made the mistake of mentioning that some people questioned Thomas' skills as an all-round linebacker. “Once that was in the voter's mind,” Zimmerman wrote, “that (ended) Thomas' chances.”

It's exactly why I didn't think DT would be a first ballot entry. I think Gretz had an uphill battle based on that.

He'll get in... In due time.

[Iowanian]

There is more blood spilled on this past page than the guy I saw hit by a car over the lunch hour.

[htismaqe]

There is more blood spilled on this past page than the guy I saw hit by a car over the lunch hour.

That's disgusting Raymond...

[ROYC75]

Why blame Gretz when Marino and Young retired to early ? STFU :rolleyes:

[KCTitus]

Why blame Gretz when Marino and Young retired to early ? STFU :rolleyes:

You're out of your element, Donnie...stick to benchwarming LB's.

[BigRedChief]

Do you really want to start this again?
Are you talking about firing King Carl? :hmmm:

Firing King Carl or not. He's the best GM ever or the worst doesn't matter in this context.

Gretz is percieved as a pr tool of the Chiefs. You can't deny this. You can say its not warranted. He's a real journalist etc. And no DT wouldn't have got in anyway but to send a pr shill to make a case for DT is not the right decison IMHO.

[KCTitus]

I am the walrus.

dunno why, but that TBL line just popped when I read Roy's post...

[jspchief]

Personally, I don't think DT deserved to get in if the determining factor was Gretz's "salesmanship".

I understand the need to present your case on a particular player, Especially one that played a shortened career in a small market. But the notion that the reason DT didn't get in was simply because Gretz wasn't a good enough salesman is absurd.

I also don't blame Gretz and other local media for defending him. It seems apparent that Z wanted to take a shot at Gretz. Otherwise when asked why DT didn't get in, he would have given reasons why DT didn't deserve to get in. It was a clear cheap shot at Gretz, and love him or hate him, it had noting to do with the votes that DT got.

[htismaqe]

Are you talking about firing King Carl? :hmmm:

Firing King Carl or not. He's the best GM ever or the worst doesn't matter in this context.

Gretz is percieved as a pr tool of the Chiefs. You can't deny this. You can say its not warranted. He's a real journalist etc. And no DT wouldn't have got in anyway but to send a pr shill to make a case for DT is not the right decison IMHO.

No, when I said "again", I'm talking about making baseless and borderline idiotic statements, like comparing buying a ticket to a football game to buying a new car with a faulty radio.

Like saying Gretz is not a "real journalist" while in the same breath saying Jason Whitlock is.

NONE of these guys are beat writers. They aren't interested in the "news". That's Adam Teicher's job, one which he does rather poorly.

Regardless of the side of the fence they're on, guys like Gretz and Whitlock get paid to be OPINIONATED, not factual.

By the way, there's no context here - we weren't talking about Carl. But since you brought it up, I'm all for firing him.

[htismaqe]

Personally, I don't think DT deserved to get in if the determining factor was Gretz's "salesmanship".

I understand the need to present your case on a particular player, Especially one that played a shortened career in a small market. But the notion that the reason DT didn't get in was simply because Gretz wasn't a good enough salesman is absurd.

I also don't blame Gretz and other local media for defending him. It seems apparent that Z wanted to take a shot at Gretz. Otherwise when asked why DT didn't get in, he would have given reasons why DT didn't deserve to get in. It was a clear cheap shot at Gretz, and love him or hate him, it had noting to do with the votes that DT got.

Pretty good analysis on all points.

[shaneo69]

Personally I don't think you debunked a thing to anybody but yourself.

DT was a great player. But (and this is just my opinion) he wasn't a first ballot HoF'er.

It sucks that ther criteria for making it in seems to be you need a SB, but that's the way it is.

I think the f*cks that are doing the voting are so wrapped up in how big their 'personalities' are, they forget what their charged with.

Did you actually read anything that I wrote about his supposed "one-dimensional" play and lack of "big-game" success? If so, I don't recall you arguing any of my assertions.

Why don't you think he's first ballot? If it's because he didn't win a Super Bowl, then I guess there's no de-bunking that. But I don't think that that's a requirement to get in.

If you agree with the guys who determined that he wasn't a first ballot HoF'er, then why are you ripping them?

[tk13]

Let's just say, I got it...people 'round here dont like Gretz because he's Gretz and it's really no more difficult than that.

You started all this junk on this thread because you made a completely incorrect assumption.... right here. Somebody in the voting committee called him out. Before that happened I do not believe anybody had said anything bad about Gretz, and I think the majority of people understood it was a 50/50 chance. A couple days later one of the committee members comes out and says point blank that it was Gretz's fault DT didn't get in, so that's where the controversy started.... not the fans, not the KC media, a member of the HOF committee himself. If you don't expect us to talk about that and discuss it, and for there obviously to be people on both sides of the fence regarding the issue, then I don't know why the hell any of us are even here....

[tk13]

So DT should get in the HoF ahead of guys who have better numbers than him like Richard Dent and Kevin Greene?

Those guys played 15 years in the NFL, DT played 11. You're punishing DT because he got in a car accident that ended his life? I think that's hardly fair.....

[go bo]

Come on. I don't poke my "badge" into people's faces to conform them to my opinion, so I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't imply otherwise. My opinion doesn't carry any more weight than any other on this board.

I'm suggesting that you read the thread before criticizing the message. Unless, of course, you're planning defend anybody associated with One Arrowhead for sport.badge? :shrug:

is that what you're calling it these days?

[htismaqe]

Those guys played 15 years in the NFL, DT played 11. You're punishing DT because he got in a car accident that ended his life? I think that's hardly fair.....

That's why I don't like stats as the sole arbiter of a player's HoF worthiness...

That's why I'm not of the opinion that Art Monk or Warren Moon belong in the HoF.

Compiling stats over a long period of time isn't all that special IMO.

What is special is being a game-changer - somebody that the other team stays up at night worrying about. Somebody that opposing coaches create gameplans for.

That's why I think DT should be in the HoF, regardless of numbers.

[go bo]

I'm really not comfortable with all of this talk of "touching" certain "areas"...

:Daw, c'mon...

it's always more fun to experience something yourself instead of just hearing about it second hand... :D :D :D

[The Bad Guy]

You started all this junk on this thread because you made a completely incorrect assumption.... right here. Somebody in the voting committee called him out. Before that happened I do not believe anybody had said anything bad about Gretz, and I think the majority of people understood it was a 50/50 chance. A couple days later one of the committee members comes out and says point blank that it was Gretz's fault DT didn't get in, so that's where the controversy started.... not the fans, not the KC media, a member of the HOF committee himself. If you don't expect us to talk about that and discuss it, and for there obviously to be people on both sides of the fence regarding the issue, then I don't know why the hell any of us are even here....
Very well said.

Titus has a problem with anyone who negatively talks about the Chiefs. He likes to bitch about people who complain about problems they have.

As far as I'm concerned, he's turned into the male Denise on this board. His takes are useless because all he does it try to slam someone who has a problem with what the Chiefs or someone associated with the organization.

If everyone kissed the ass of the Chiefs, there would be no reason for message boards. Which is why I really wonder his reson for being here.

[htismaqe]

Very well said.

Titus has a problem with anyone who negatively talks about the Chiefs. He likes to bitch about people who complain about problems they have.

As far as I'm concerned, he's turned into the male Denise on this board. His takes are useless because all he does it try to slam someone who has a problem with what the Chiefs or someone associated with the organization.

If everyone kissed the ass of the Chiefs, there would be no reason for message boards. Which is why I really wonder he's here.

Actually, I have to butt in here. Pardon me for a moment while I act like Titus... :D

Titus is NOT DEFENDING THE CHIEFS. It may appear that way because he's always on the opposite side of the argument as the people who are bashing the Chiefs.

But in reality, he's arguing for the sake of arguing. He obviously enjoys poking holes in other people's arguments and theories, and he obviously enjoys it when people make bold and sometimes outrageous statements.

But in the end, he's not an apologist. He's not Rufus.

He's just a contrarian with an extremely sensitive BS meter.

[go bo]

You started all this junk on this thread because you made a completely incorrect assumption.... right here. Somebody in the voting committee called him out. Before that happened I do not believe anybody had said anything bad about Gretz, and I think the majority of people understood it was a 50/50 chance. A couple days later one of the committee members comes out and says point blank that it was Gretz's fault DT didn't get in, so that's where the controversy started.... not the fans, not the KC media, a member of the HOF committee himself. If you don't expect us to talk about that and discuss it, and for there obviously to be people on both sides of the fence regarding the issue, then I don't know why the hell any of us are even here....yeah, why the hell are YOU here, anyway?

all you do is post cut and paste articles and offer vapid takes on chiefs football...

and your opinions? don't even get me started on that...

you're a utter waste of bandwidth, you maroon... :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:





oh, btw, thanks for posting the article about gretz! :toast:

[go bo]

. . .

If everyone kissed the ass of the Chiefs, there would be no reason for message boards. . .

well, it's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it...

[WilliamTheIrish]

Did you actually read anything that I wrote about his supposed "one-dimensional" play and lack of "big-game" success? If so, I don't recall you arguing any of my assertions.

Why don't you think he's first ballot? If it's because he didn't win a Super Bowl, then I guess there's no de-bunking that. But I don't think that that's a requirement to get in.

If you agree with the guys who determined that he wasn't a first ballot HoF'er, then why are you ripping them?

1)Yes, I read it. It did not change my mind.

I noticed that when you mentioned DT's big game success you went straight to the # of points the D gave up. What did DT do in any of those 'big games' to change them?

I also noticed you failed to include his biggest game: AFC Championship in Buffalo. The biggest game in his career. Did he not get benched by Marty in that game?

2) No SB. Played poorly in his biggest game.

3) Because guys like King, Z.(and other 'reporters' Lupica, Wilbon,) seem to be more about themselves than the game they are covering.

[Logical]

They are both mouthpieces of the Chiefs pr machine nothing more. They are not "journalists". At least Thwitlock is an "opinion" even though its mostly wrong its still an opinion. These guys write as "journalists". They need blow torches to remove their lips from King Carl's backside.

King Carl should have sent someone with prestige to sway the voters. Bobby Bell, Lanier, Lenny anyone with some prestige instead of one of his stooges.I am not sure those players would want to put their reputations on the line for DT.

[Mr. Kotter]

I am not sure those players would want to put their reputations on the line for DT.

Really? Wow. :hmmm:

Hope all is well, with you...Jim. :thumb:

[Logical]

Really? Wow. :hmmm:

Hope all is well, with you...Jim. :thumb:Slowly recovering. Those players did not play with DT and there reputations are something of premium importance.

[Mr. Kotter]

Slowly recovering. Those players did not play with DT and there reputations are something of premium importance.

I'm keepin' you in my prayers, Jim...you are a good egg. Hang in there; fight the good fight. Your son loves you, man.

DT was definitely of the new generation; if those dudes are hip, they understand that and bear no grudges.