Flu Shots for Elderly May Not Save Lives

[BIG_DADDY]

There's a shocker. I sure hope they don't force kids to get vaccines. My godson doesn't get them and I will be pissed as hell if they force it on him.





Flu Shots for Elderly May Not Save Lives


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Feb 14, 5:31 PM (ET)

By CARLA K. JOHNSON

(AP) Frances Welch, 95, rolls up her sleeve in preparation for a flu shot from registered nurse Randy...
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CHICAGO (AP) - A new study based on more than three decades of U.S. data suggests that giving flu shots to the elderly has not saved any lives.

Led by National Institutes of Health researchers, the study challenges standard government dogma and is bound to confuse senior citizens. During last fall's flu vaccine shortage, thousands of older Americans, heeding the government's public health message, stood in long lines to get their shots.

"There is a sense that we're all going to die if we don't get the flu shot," said the study's lead author, Lone Simonsen, a senior epidemiologist at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases in Bethesda, Md. "Maybe that's a little much."

The study should influence the nation's flu prevention strategy, Simonsen said, perhaps by expanding vaccination to schoolchildren, the biggest spreaders of the virus.


However, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta plans no change in its advice on who should get flu shots, saying the NIH research isn't enough to shift gears.

"We think the best way to help the elderly is to vaccinate them," said CDC epidemiologist William Thompson. "These results don't contribute to changing vaccine policy."

The CDC currently recommends flu shots for people age 50 and over, nursing home residents, children 6-23 months, pregnant women, people with chronic health problems and certain health care and day care workers. When vaccine was scarce a few months ago, healthy adults under 65 were urged to forgo the shot.

Although the study, published Monday in the Archives of Internal Medicine, looks at data from the whole U.S. elderly population over time, it doesn't directly compare vaccinated vs. unvaccinated elderly, Thompson said. Previous studies that made that comparison found the vaccine decreased the rate of all winter deaths.

It's also unlikely that a single study would trigger a change in policy, said CDC spokesman Glen Nowak.

But the former head of the nation's vaccine strategy, Dr. Walter Orenstein, said Simonsen's work "should make us think twice about our current strategy and (about) potentially enhancing it." Orenstein is former director of the CDC's National Immunization Program and now leads a program for vaccine policy development at Emory University.

A shift to vaccinating schoolchildren, the age group most likely to spread the flu virus, is advocated by colleagues of Orenstein's at Emory in a separate report to be published Tuesday in the American Journal of Epidemiology.

The NIH and Emory papers, one a highly technical statistical analysis of death data and the other a commentary based on field studies and mathematical modeling, come during a season that focused the nation's attention on vaccine supplies.

As a vaccine shortage loomed last fall, the CDC urged shots only for the highest-risk groups. Most of the 36,000 people who die each year of flu-related causes are elderly and the nation's strategy has focused on getting shots to them, as well as other high-risk groups.

Last week the CDC reported that about 59 percent of older Americans got shots in 2004, down from 65 percent in 2003. Based on her research, Simonsen doesn't expect to see a corresponding increase in flu-related deaths this year, something that "can be seen as good news."

The flu vaccine is less effective in the elderly than in younger people. It works, but not very well, said Ira Longini, a biostatistics professor at Emory University's Rollins School of Public Health and a proponent of vaccinating schoolchildren.

While it's smart for senior citizens to get their yearly flu shots because it can decrease their risk of getting sick, he said, a smarter government strategy would emphasize shots for children, ages 5 to 18. His statistical models show that strategy could save more elderly Americans from hospital visits and death.

"If we really want to make a difference and control influenza, we simply have to change the policy. We have to vaccinate large numbers of children," Longini said.

He and his colleague Dr. Elizabeth Halloran write that if 70 percent of schoolchildren were vaccinated, the elderly would be protected without flu shots. The strategy would require 42 million doses of flu vaccine. Even during this season's shortage, there were 57 million doses available, their report says.

Yearly flu shots have been recommended for people 65 and older since the 1960s and for those 50 and older since 2000. Vaccination rates have risen among seniors from 20 percent before 1980 to 65 percent in 2001, according to the NIH study.

Simonsen and her team of researchers could find no corresponding decrease in death rates. Their analysis took into account the fact that people are living longer and that more virulent strains of flu dominated the 1990s.

The CDC's Thompson said Simonsen didn't take into account the effect of a gradual lengthening of the average flu season over the decades. But Simonsen said that no matter what model she used to define a flu season, she came to the same result.

Older Americans should keep their risk in perspective, said Dr. Lisa Schwartz and Dr. Steven Woloshin, senior researchers at the VA Outcomes Group, a small group of researchers trying to promote the straightforward presentation of medical information.

For the average senior citizen, the annual risk of dying from the flu is low: about 1 in 1,000. They said senior citizens still should try to get flu shots, but shouldn't panic if vaccine isn't available.

[Bowser]

This is the first year in a few years my daughter has not received a flu shot, and she has missed two days of school (one being today). My wife and I did not get the shot this year, and we both have been healthy for the most part. I think we will forego the shots from now on.

[Pants]

I never get them but usually get a bit sick for 2 days every year from all the exposure to the sick kids at school/dorms. Hasn't happened this year yet.

[jiveturkey]

I skipped the shot for the first time in 6 years and I didn't get sick once this winter. The last several winters were awful with colds, flu, and pneumonia.

I also changed my diet and the supplements that I take but I'll still be avoiding the shot from now on.

[kcfanintitanhell]

I haven't gotten a flu shot in quite awhile, and have been fortunate enough to have not gotten it. However, I was exposed last week and started to feel the onset of it yesterday.
Someone recommended an over-the-counter flu medicine called oscillococcinum, which one is supposed to start taking immediately if they feel they might be coming down with the flu.
So far. so good. The symptoms have not gotten any worse.
It's not cheap-about 17 bucks for 6 doses, but people I have talked to swear by it, and 17 bucks is cheaper than a visit to a doctor, who would probably prescribe an antibiotic, which doesn't do squat anyway.

[Saulbadguy]

Heh. Speaking of the elderly and flu shots, anytime anyone mentions "flu shot", the old farts poke their heads out of their cubicles like its feeding time at the prarie. Our district was selling them for 10 bucks a pop, I think I was the only one who did not get one.

[Bowser]

Heh. Speaking of the elderly and flu shots, anytime anyone mentions "flu shot", the old farts poke their heads out of their cubicles like its feeding time at the prarie. Our district was selling them for 10 bucks a pop, I think I was the only one who did not get one.

And you were the only one not to get sick, right?

[Saulbadguy]

And you were the only one not to get sick, right?
I didn't pay attention. Some people are never sick, some people are always sick. The oldest guy here got the flu, and he got a flu shot.

[Taco John]

I think it sucks that they force flouride on us.

[FloridaChief]

I think it sucks that they force flouride on us.

"Repeat after me: Don't contaminate our drinking water with flouridation!"

[JimNasium]

I should just keep my mouth shut because I recognize that I will change no minds here but I can't help myself. First off, there is no child that is forced to receive vaccines. The truth is that there are kids across the U.S. whose parents chose to leave them unprotected from childhood diseases. Secondly, the anti-vaccine crowd chooses to forget the millions of lives that have been saved through childhood vaccine programs. The suffering eliminated by these programs is a distant memory but this crowd chooses to ignore the benefit and instead foster fear regarding vaccine safety. Finally, as a public health official, I have long suspected that flu vaccines would be best utilized in school aged children as they are typically the best at incubating disease. That's my 2 cents.

[kcfanintitanhell]

I have long suspected that flu vaccines would be best utilized in school aged children as they are typically the best at incubating disease. That's my 2 cents.

You have my 2 cents on that.....and a few more.

[badgirl]

I got my flu shot this year when I worked at the hospital, it was the first one I have ever taken and I beleive I have been sick more this year than ever before.

[elvomito]

half the time the flu strain in the shots are not the correct strain that is flying around, so it is pointless to get the shot.

everyone i personally know who got the shot indeed gets sick. 2 of them got hit with the flu then bronchitis in a 1 week span!

[Chief Roundup]

Never taken one. Never will. The Flu will not kill you unless you don't take care of yourself or if you have other health issues.
I am afraid that giving our school children the flu shot is only going to make thier immune systems weaker.

[kcfanintitanhell]

Never taken one. Never will. The Flu will not kill you unless you don't take care of yourself or if you have other health issues.
I am afraid that giving our school children the flu shot is only going to make thier immune systems weaker.

You may have a good point. But I think a child's immune system only gets stronger with age, and I think a virus's mentality is "kid...get me to the big folks...why party in a motel room when I can invite a whole lot more friends and have a blowout in the mansion?'"""

[Chief Roundup]

You may have a good point. But I think a child's immune system only gets stronger with age, and I think a virus's mentality is "kid...get me to the big folks...why party in a motel room when I can invite a whole lot more friends and have a blowout in the mansion?'"""
It seems to me that struggling makes us stronger because we overcame. But when a person has never struggled they become weak and cannot overcome when they need to.


Just like the antibacterial soaps have to be made stronger and stronger now because we use so many antibacterial soaps that thier affectiveness doesn't last as long.

[BIG_DADDY]

I should just keep my mouth shut because I recognize that I will change no minds here but I can't help myself. First off, there is no child that is forced to receive vaccines. The truth is that there are kids across the U.S. whose parents chose to leave them unprotected from childhood diseases. Secondly, the anti-vaccine crowd chooses to forget the millions of lives that have been saved through childhood vaccine programs. The suffering eliminated by these programs is a distant memory but this crowd chooses to ignore the benefit and instead foster fear regarding vaccine safety. Finally, as a public health official, I have long suspected that flu vaccines would be best utilized in school aged children as they are typically the best at incubating disease. That's my 2 cents.

Maybe you should feed your family raw sewage to make sure they have the anitbodies in place just in case they eat something contaminated. You just can't be too safe you know what I'm saying?

[BIG_DADDY]

I got my flu shot this year when I worked at the hospital, it was the first one I have ever taken and I beleive I have been sick more this year than ever before.

Thank you.

[oldandslow]

Jim

Most on this board have never seen anyone with polio, whooping cough, small pox, diptheria, measles, or mumps.

Have any guesses as to why that might be true????

I might venture an opinion or two....

...of course the resident libertarians don't want no goldderned gubmint telling them how to keep their kids well.

[BIG_DADDY]

Jim

Most on this board have never seen anyone with polio, whooping cough, small pox, diptheria, measles, or mumps.

Have any guesses as to why that might be true????

I might venture an opinion or two....

...of course the resident libertarians don't want no goldderned gubmint telling them how to keep their kids well.

WTF does polio, whooping cough, small pox, diptheria, measles, and mumps have to do with contaminating your system with a flu shot that is usually the wrong strain and makes you sick more times than not as many on the BB have attested to? Oh that's right their all shots great analogy. :rolleyes: Don't burn what's left of your brain cells dude this resident Libertarian doesn't want to have to support your vegetable ass.

[Iowanian]

vaccinations are a GOOD thing. People Don't live an average of 30 years longer today, because they're eating healthier and getting more exercise.

"the flu" isn't what most of us think it is.......Its a respiratory virus, not the drizzlin' shits. Most Doctors and Nurses, and those who work with immune compromised children and old folks unanamously agree that the Flu shot is beneficial and Does save lives. Unless you get the Nazal Mist Flu vaccine, the Flu shot is NOT active/live virus and can't make you sick.

Don't see many kids crippled by Polio, dieing of dysentary or small pox either.

[oldandslow]

exactly...

Thank you.

[BIG_DADDY]

vaccinations are a GOOD thing. .

Don't you think that is a little vague dude? How come you and the slow one can't differentiate between a polio shot and a flu vaccine? I expected more out of you than that. :shake:

[BIG_DADDY]

exactly...

Thank you.

Nice comeback. ROFL

[Iowanian]

Don't you think that is a little vague dude? How come you and the slow one can't differentiate between a polio shot and a flu vaccine? I expected more out of you than that. :shake:

What would you require to satisfy your quest for information? If you require it, I can dig up some documentation, to back up what my wife, who has a masters in Public Health tells me.

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art15765.asp

More people died during WWI and II than at any point in recent history. More died from influenza than the war.
http://www.thecurrentonline.com/news/2005/01/18/Opinions/Influenza.Has.A.Long.Deadly.History-834777.shtml
Flu death info
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/0304season.htm

Don't get the flu vaccine if you're allergic to eggs
http://www.bcm.edu/pa/flucenter.htm

The Flu shot doesn't save everyone, and you're correct that sometimes they Guess wrong on the strains that will be in the US. Think about the number of world travelers spanning the globe, spreading germs each day.

The Problem is, its easier to find numbers on the ones who Die, when the the ones who "would have" didn't because they were vaccinated.

Maybe we can dig up some numbers on Deaths of the Elderly to Flu and Pneumonia Previous to the Flu vaccinations implementation vs today.

[Saulbadguy]

Iowanian,

a few key things I picked up from your posts were that you stressed "children and elderly folk".

Is that to suggest that those in the middle really don't need the flu shot? Thats how I feel. I don't want it, I don't need it. Even the President told the public to not get it unless you really need it, due to shortages.

[Iowanian]

BD...I forgot to address your comment about Polio et al.
The reason I included that too, is it seems like a few months ago, you were on here bemoaning the vaccinations for those others too, claiming they caused Autism. That too, is unproven.

Saul.....I'm not doctor or health care professional.

I know its urged PARTICULARLY for Infants, Elderly and those with compromised Imune systems(chemo patients, other immune diseases).

Healthy, health care people who are in contact with the ill, also routinely get the vaccination. The people who work at the desk at the clinic, nurses, doctors.....

There has been an increase in the past 25 years to influenza related causes from what I'm reading, but that is mostly blamed on the aging population.

Its my understanding that Healthy people should/could also get the vaccination, but its not as important because you or I, are more likely to be able to fight off and live through the virus cycle IF we were to get it.

The biggest thing I "hear" about at home, is calling it the "flu" when I get the pukes or Hershey Squirts.........Influenza, that the vaccination is a respiratory thing.

2 years ago, I got a flu shot, and got the scours the next day..........I blamed the shot, until the wife busted some facts out on me.

I've got nothing to gain, I'm not selling them, I don't give them, I make no profit or anything like that. I'm just not a conspiracy theorist who thinks every technolical and medical advancement are the debil.

[Saulbadguy]

I don't think they are bad, but I don't think people should rush out and get them if they don't need them. I haven't been "sick sick" for 5 or 6 years, just the occasional squirts and sniffles. It wouldn't make sense for me to get a flu shot, when I might be taking away from someone who really needs one. I would hope others have the same attitude.

[BIG_DADDY]

What would you require to satisfy your quest for information? If you require it, I can dig up some documentation, to back up what my wife, who has a masters in Public Health tells me.

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art15765.asp

More people died during WWI and II than at any point in recent history. More died from influenza than the war.
http://www.thecurrentonline.com/news/2005/01/18/Opinions/Influenza.Has.A.Long.Deadly.History-834777.shtml

Don't get the flu vaccine if you're allergic to eggs
http://www.bcm.edu/pa/flucenter.htm

The Flu shot doesn't save everyone, and you're correct that sometimes they Guess wrong on the strains that will be in the US. Think about the number of world travelers spanning the globe, spreading germs each day.

The Problem is, its easier to find numbers on the ones who Die, when the the ones who "would have" didn't because they were vaccinated.

Maybe we can dig up some numbers on Deaths of the Elderly to Flu and Pneumonia Previous to the Flu vaccinations implementation vs today.

I am not scared of dying from the flu it's not going to happen. I don't want to flood my system with a bunch of shit either and make myself sick that's just stupid. I have a GREAT doctor and I told him how I felt and he agreed. He said the only reason a lot of doctors don't tell people not to get a shot is from a liability standpoint. If you have a really good doctor and you know how to ask the question I'll bet you get the right answer. "So Doc did you and your family get a flu vaccination?" I'll be the answer is an overwhelming NO.

[BIG_DADDY]

BD...I forgot to address your comment about Polio et al.
The reason I included that too, is it seems like a few months ago, you were on here bemoaning the vaccinations for those others too, claiming they caused Autism. That too, is unproven.

.

I have printed many articles that link mercury poisoning from certain vaccines to autism and the numbers are overwhelming. I am not against vaccinating for major disease I am just for not sticking a new born full of mercury. Some vaccines contained 10k X the level the FDA finds to be dangerous. Those are just the facts you can ignore them if you want.

As far as the flu shot goes I will never ever take one.

[Iowanian]

Thats your decision. You're young, in great shape and healthy. You and I can afford to make that decision. Its that 6 month old infant or our grandfathers who can't.

My kids will be vaccinated. Polio et al is a futhermucker......and there is a reason its not prevelent in the US, while it is in some 3rd world crapboxes. Vaccination.

If there is a conflict within the FDA on Dangerous Mercury levels(and it is bad stuff)........but the FDA allows it in the vaccinations, that is something they'd better figure out.

[BIG_DADDY]

Thats your decision. You're young, in great shape and healthy. You and I can afford to make that decision. Its that 6 month old infant or our grandfathers who can't.

My kids will be vaccinated. Polio et al is a futhermucker......and there is a reason its not prevelent in the US, while it is in some 3rd world crapboxes. Vaccination.

If there is a conflict within the FDA on Dangerous Mercury levels(and it is bad stuff)........but the FDA allows it in the vaccinations, that is something they'd better figure out.

I think the mercury issue has been addressed, I am not sure. I would ask if I was you I am sure there is some drug manufacturer who makes it without the mercury.

BTW the whole point of this thread was that they are now saying it doesn't help the elderly.

[Iowanian]

It must be true, I read on the Star BB.

There are studies that refute studies that refute studies. I can find articles on the internet that say that non-reproductive fornication is a bad thing.

You're a big boy.......Don't get any shot you're not comfortable with.

[BIG_DADDY]

It must be true, I read on the Star BB.

There are studies that refute studies that refute studies. I can find articles on the internet that say that non-reproductive fornication is a bad thing.

You're a big boy.......Don't get any shot you're not comfortable with.

Your a big boy too, you want to stuff your body full of shit go ahead. The mercury thing was the real deal. If you want to just ignore it and pretend it never existed and make sure your kid doesn't shot up with the shit that's on you. If your kid ends up acting like Phoney Gonzales though you only have yourself to blame.

[Iowanian]

I don't. I don't eat hallucinogenic mushrooms, smoke dope, cigarettes..........

There are thousands of kids who are protected by vaccinations for every kid with a problem, who some group, funded by lawyers wanting to sue can attribute.

Will you get a tetnis shot next time you need stitches? I will because lockjaw doesn't sound like much fun. I didn't get the flu shot this year, because there was a shortage and I figured old people needed it.

My kid would have alot more chance with problems if I were a stoner, than because I got a Polio shot as a kid or flu shot last year. I'll bet you were vaccinated as a kid too. I think all kids HAVE to be to enter kindergarden, at least in Iowa.

Good luck with that.

[MOhillbilly]

They work!
the Govt. is just tryin to fool the old foody doodies into thinkin they dont in the hopes that they die and save social security.

[BIG_DADDY]

I don't. I don't eat hallucinogenic mushrooms, smoke dope, cigarettes..........

There are thousands of kids who are protected by vaccinations for every kid with a problem, who some group, funded by lawyers wanting to sue can attribute.

Will you get a tetnis shot next time you need stitches? I will because lockjaw doesn't sound like much fun. I didn't get the flu shot this year, because there was a shortage and I figured old people needed it.

My kid would have alot more chance with problems if I were a stoner, than because I got a Polio shot as a kid or flu shot last year. I'll bet you were vaccinated as a kid too. I think all kids HAVE to be to enter kindergarden, at least in Iowa.

Good luck with that.

Frankly I am more than a little surprise to see Evil Kneival all scared of a little flu bug.

[Iowanian]

I'm not. I didn't get the shot this year, and usually don't. My wife does, her mother who is a school nurse does, my doctor does, my grandparents do.

Its probably not necessary for everyone, I don't think its a bad thing if you choose not to get it, but I think its a good option for those less healthy.

As far as IowEvil Kinevil.....He's turning into s pewss these days it seems.

[Soupnazi]

I'm all for vaccinations in the case of viruses that don't mutate and that we can reasonably hope to erradicate through the use of vaccines. Smallpox, polio, etc.

That being said, influenza is not one of them. Flu is much like HIV in that it mutates so quickly that an effective vaccine doesn't exist.

I'm sure by now most people have their own anectodal evidence of their efficacy, but the reality is that if you get a flu shot, you have some defenses against those 2-3 strains in the vaccine. There are thousands of strains that you still could get and have no protection against despite your flu shot.

[BIG_DADDY]

As far as IowEvil Kinevil.....He's turning into s pewss these days it seems.

Slowed WAY the **** down after breaking my shoulder I don't want to go through that shit again.

[Fairplay]

I got my flu shot this year when I worked at the hospital, it was the first one I have ever taken and I beleive I have been sick more this year than ever before.




So we've noticed.

[Hammock Parties]

Observation: 44 posts and no Skip Towne jokes?