View Full Version : At this point I think we should trade the 2 for Surtain
Red Dawg
03-09-2005, 07:36 AM
The pick'ins are getting slim. If we must spend big bucks I'd rather it be Surtain than Law. I would love to have Law but his foot may never get better or it could be fine. WE know that Sutain is 100%.
Premature.
xoxo~
Gaz
Holding off until Hartwell or Dyson is signed.
I will say, however, that when Hartwell signs, I offer up the 2nd for Surtain.
xoxo~
Gaz
Coiled in the grass, ready to strike.
ROYC75
03-09-2005, 08:05 AM
Pull the plug Carl........get the contract inked out and Surtain here since you fugged up on Rolle.
Would have been happier with Rolle and our # 2 .
cookster50
03-09-2005, 08:09 AM
Gaz, you really think we are getting Hartwell? I have a feeling we are out of the running for Hartwell.
BigRedChief
03-09-2005, 08:14 AM
My Thoughts:
Sign Hartwell. Give the #2 for Surtain. Draft Rolle with the #15. Pick up a FA wide reciever to replace Morton.
tiptap
03-09-2005, 08:17 AM
Premature.
xoxo~
Gaz
Holding off until Hartwell or Dyson is signed.
I see the scenario going to Draft Day. The process depends upon how much cap room Miami has to sign the people they draft. Now technically they can wait till June to trim their squad so they are under the cap. They could see who makes the team. But 1st round choices have contracts that always have SB that if the player doesn't make the team will bite a team and still represents a hit averaged over 6 or 7 years especially with the 2nd pick of the draft. They are still shopping for help on the offensive line so I suspect that they would really like to move Surtain's cap numbers off their ledgers.
But that does leave other teams (being Seattle now) that may have interest. I feel that Surtain is worth a 2nd round draft pick if we can have him for several years and if we can also stay under the cap. It may take revisiting some of our offensive players contracts but not having to pay a 2nd round salary draft person will help some as well.
Gaz, you really think we are getting Hartwell? I have a feeling we are out of the running for Hartwell.
I dunno.
But I think Hartwell and [a healthy] Bell would be major upgrades. At that point, I would be willing to give up the 2nd for Surtain.
Best Case:
Hartwell, Bell, Dyson
Next Best Case:
Hartwell, Bell, Surtain
Next Next Best Case:
Hartwell, Bell, Law
xoxo~
Gaz
Hopefull until Hartwell signs with somebody.
milkman
03-09-2005, 08:38 AM
Gaz, I just don't see why trading for Surtain becomes a better option if we were to sign Hartwell.
At first, I liked the idea of trading the #2 pick for Surtain, but as I've given it more thought, I have come to the conclusion that it's not a good idea.
His price tag will/would be a lot higher than Dyson, which I believe would make him unaffordable after signing Hartwell.
And since I believe/know that the shutdown corner is a long dead artifact of NFL lore, I don't believe that spending the kind of jack on Surtain that he would ask for is practical.
We need to upgrade, because there is a difference between Battle/Bartee and real NFL CBs, but we just don't need to spend that kind of money on the position.
Sign Dyson, sign Hartwell, draft DE, draft a corner, and move Battle/Bartee to safety.
I'd even take Herndon, at the right price.
tomahawk kid
03-09-2005, 08:41 AM
Gaz, I just don't see why trading for Surtain becomes a better option if we were to sign Hartwell.
At first, I liked the idea of trading the #2 pick for Surtain, but as I've given it more thought, I have come to the conclusion that it's not a good idea.
His price tag will/would be a lot higher than Dyson, which I believe would make him unaffordable after signing Hartwell.
And since I believe/know that the shutdown corner is a long dead artifact of NFL lore, I don't believe that spending the kind of jack on Surtain that he would ask for is practical.
We need to upgrade, because there is a difference between Battle/Bartee and real NFL CBs, but we just don't need to spend that kind of money on the position.
Sign Dyson, sign Hartwell, draft DE, draft a corner, and move Battle/Bartee to safety.
I'd even take Herndon, at the right price.
I was under the impression that Dyson would not be that much of an upgrade.
Someone mentioned he got pushed around alot in the Titans Defense and Gun was not high on him.
SideWinder-
Surtain is my second option behind Dyson.
If we get Hartwell, we are no longer desperate for an OLB [Bell would take that role]. Therefore, I am willing to exchange that 2nd Round pick for Surtain. With the LB corps taken care of, I would not fight Surtain.
In any case, I am supremely disinterested in Law.
Herndon would have to come really cheap to stir my interest. But my interest is stirable.
xoxo~
Gaz
Conjuring the possibilities.
I was under the impression that Dyson would not be that much of an upgrade.
Someone mentioned he got pushed around alot in the Titans Defense and Gun was not high on him.
Dyson Vs Battle/Bartee.
I smell upgrade.
xoxo~
Gaz
Not sure who would not be a upgrade.
milkman
03-09-2005, 08:47 AM
I was under the impression that Dyson would not be that much of an upgrade.
Someone mentioned he got pushed around alot in the Titans Defense and Gun was not high on him.
I would be an upgrade at the position, that's how bad Bartee/Battle/McPasOn are.
And while I think Gun is OK as a DC, I really question his talent eval abilities.
I mean, he is the guy that was HC at the time Bartee was drafted, and he (Bartee) fits his (Gun's) physical profile of CB.
KCTitus
03-09-2005, 08:47 AM
Gaz: The Hartwell ship has sailed...there's no way that's happening with the Bell signing.
htismaqe
03-09-2005, 08:47 AM
My Thoughts:
Sign Hartwell. Give the #2 for Surtain. Draft Rolle with the #15. Pick up a FA wide reciever to replace Morton.
That would be freaking awesome.
milkman
03-09-2005, 08:51 AM
SideWinder-
Surtain is my second option behind Dyson.
If we get Hartwell, we are no longer desperate for an OLB [Bell would take that role]. Therefore, I am willing to exchange that 2nd Round pick for Surtain. With the LB corps taken care of, I would not fight Surtain.
In any case, I am supremely disinterested in Law.
Herndon would have to come really cheap to stir my interest. But my interest is stirable.
xoxo~
Gaz
Conjuring the possibilities.
After signing Hartwell, where does the money come from for Surtain?
Gaz: The Hartwell ship has sailed...there's no way that's happening with the Bell signing.
Get the hell away from my freakin’ parade, man!
xoxo~
Gaz
Holding onto hope.
eazyb81
03-09-2005, 08:51 AM
I was under the impression that Dyson would not be that much of an upgrade.
Someone mentioned he got pushed around alot in the Titans Defense and Gun was not high on him.
You could say Dyson is an upgrade, but honestly who wouldn't be an upgrade?
I can't see how anyone would rather have Dyson then Surtain. Surtain is a 3 time Pro Bowler in his prime that excels in man coverage. He has been a #1 CB his entire career so he will not feel uncomfortable coming into our system. IMO, a #2 pick is a small price to pay for Pro Bowl CB who can blanket the opposing team's best receiver.
Furthermore, anyone who believes we still have a chance to sign Hartwell is delusional. Bell is our LB signing, and now we will move to signing a CB. We need to sign the best CB available, and not settle for a marginal player in Dyson.
milkman
03-09-2005, 08:53 AM
Gaz: The Hartwell ship has sailed...there's no way that's happening with the Bell signing.
I won't believe that unless/until Hartwell is signed elsewhere.
The fact that Carl implied that the ship has sailed is all the more reason to believe that it hasn't.
After signing Hartwell, where does the money come from for Surtain?
We are headed for a rebuild when Vermeil leaves.
Cap Hell, here we come.
xoxo~
Gaz
Rolling the dice.
Eleazar
03-09-2005, 08:53 AM
Are we going to fit Bell AND Surtain AND Hartwell under the cap? For some reason that seems like a pipe dream to me.
CosmicPal
03-09-2005, 08:54 AM
Are we going to fit Bell AND Surtain AND Hartwell under the cap? For some reason that seems like a pipe dream to me.
You will when you release some players....
milkman
03-09-2005, 08:56 AM
You could say Dyson is an upgrade, but honestly who wouldn't be an upgrade?
I can't see how anyone would rather have Dyson then Surtain. Surtain is a 3 time Pro Bowler in his prime that excels in man coverage. He has been a #1 CB his entire career so he will not feel uncomfortable coming into our system. IMO, a #2 pick is a small price to pay for Pro Bowl CB who can blanket the opposing team's best receiver.
Furthermore, anyone who believes we still have a chance to sign Hartwell is delusional. Bell is our LB signing, and now we will move to signing a CB. We need to sign the best CB available, and not settle for a marginal player in Dyson.
Dyson is just a more practical option, that leaves more money for upgrades elsewhere.
With Surtain, we may only be able to address 3 positions of need, including the corner spot he fills.
With Dyson we may be able to address 5 positions of need.
CosmicPal
03-09-2005, 08:57 AM
Furthermore, anyone who believes we still have a chance to sign Hartwell is delusional. Bell is our LB signing, and now we will move to signing a CB. We need to sign the best CB available, and not settle for a marginal player in Dyson.
We usually say, High, but delusional is okay. I agree with your sentiments. As much as I would like Hartwell, I don't believe he's under our radar any longer. They need to focus on a the best CB available as you mentioned, and then, if Hartwell is still available- consider reopening the negotiations.
eazyb81
03-09-2005, 08:58 AM
Are we going to fit Bell AND Surtain AND Hartwell under the cap? For some reason that seems like a pipe dream to me.
It is a bit of a pipe dream. That will be well over $30 million in signing bonuses, not something I envision Lamar doing. I would love it just as much as everybody, but the time for dream scenarios is over. We need to figure out who is going to be our #1 CB before we end up with Bell and Dyson by default.
eazyb81
03-09-2005, 09:01 AM
Dyson is just a more practical option, that leaves more money for upgrades elsewhere.
With Surtain, we may only be able to address 3 positions of need, including the corner spot he fills.
With Dyson we may be able to address 5 positions of need.
That makes sense, but do you really believe that King Carl will do that? I think he is more likely to just sign Dyson and say "here is your #1 CB and improved defense!". If signing Dyson meant we would also sign Hartwell and another free agent, then I would be all for it. However, I just cannot believe that Peterson would do that for a second.
I dunno.
But I think Hartwell and [a healthy] Bell would be major upgrades. At that point, I would be willing to give up the 2nd for Surtain.
Best Case:
Hartwell, Bell, Dyson
Next Best Case:
Hartwell, Bell, Surtain
Next Next Best Case:
Hartwell, Bell, Law
xoxo~
Gaz
Hopefull until Hartwell signs with somebody.
We definitely need at least 1 top tier FA CB. If we were to get Hartwell, do we give Barber an injury settlement and he's off the books? How would that work?
If we only get 1 FA CB, we'll definitely need to pick up one in the 1st round of the draft.
SideWinder-
I am with you, man. I stated a while back that my preferred scenario is Hartwell & Dyson.
Add [a healthy] Bell to the mix and I am a happy camper.
xoxo~
Gaz
Refusing to give up on Hartwell until the fat lady signs.
We definitely need at least 1 top tier FA CB. If we were to get Hartwell, do we give Barber an injury settlement and he's off the books? How would that work?
If we only get 1 FA CB, we'll definitely need to pick up one in the 1st round of the draft.
We do not need a top-tier FA CB. Dyson would be just fine.
As usual, I direct your attention to the howling Denver blunder that was Champ Bailey [heh].
And even if we do get Dyson or Surtain or [ugh] Law, we still need to draft CB in one of the first two Rounds.
xoxo~
Gaz
Sees no cheap way out of this hole.
I would be an upgrade at the position, that's how bad Bartee/Battle/McPasOn are.
And while I think Gun is OK as a DC, I really question his talent eval abilities.
I mean, he is the guy that was HC at the time Bartee was drafted, and he (Bartee) fits his (Gun's) physical profile of CB.
Heh heh, I love it when people exaggerate to the extreme. Ok, let's be realistic here. Bartee did look decent in his first start last season. It went downhill from there. McCleon did look good in 2003 and at times last year. No doubt that those guys aren't very good NFL CBs but they would blow you out of the water. If you were the starting CB, the opposing offense would score on every possession on the first play. :p
eazyb81
03-09-2005, 09:13 AM
We do not need a top-tier FA CB. Dyson would be just fine.
As usual, I direct your attention to the howling Denver blunder that was Champ Bailey [heh].
And even if we do get Dyson or Surtain or [ugh] Law, we still need to draft CB in one of the first two Rounds.
xoxo~
Gaz
Sees no cheap way out of this hole.
The Denver scenario that didn't work out perfectly is just one scenario. What about Baltimore's defense with McCallister, Miami's defense with Surtain, Washington's defense with Smoot? Sure, they have great players at other positions, but they also have the great CBs that are needed in this age.
I was under the impression that Dyson would not be that much of an upgrade.
Someone mentioned he got pushed around alot in the Titans Defense and Gun was not high on him.
I have to question where you heard this? Was it a legit source or was it some poster just spreading a rumor? Seriously, I want to know because I don't know much about Dyson.
KCTitus
03-09-2005, 09:13 AM
LOL...
You could say Dyson is an upgrade, but honestly who wouldn't be an upgrade?
I can't see how anyone would rather have Dyson then Surtain. Surtain is a 3 time Pro Bowler in his prime that excels in man coverage. He has been a #1 CB his entire career so he will not feel uncomfortable coming into our system. IMO, a #2 pick is a small price to pay for Pro Bowl CB who can blanket the opposing team's best receiver.
Furthermore, anyone who believes we still have a chance to sign Hartwell is delusional. Bell is our LB signing, and now we will move to signing a CB. We need to sign the best CB available, and not settle for a marginal player in Dyson.
:thumb:
milkman
03-09-2005, 09:15 AM
That makes sense, but do you really believe that King Carl will do that? I think he is more likely to just sign Dyson and say "here is your #1 CB and improved defense!". If signing Dyson meant we would also sign Hartwell and another free agent, then I would be all for it. However, I just cannot believe that Peterson would do that for a second.
I don't know what I believe as it relates to Carl.
When he steps down, I going to throw a party.
However, if this is his last season, I could see Carl rolling the dice, cause his ego would really be stroked by a SB run.
And his ego might be the only thing that supercedes his tightwad greedy ass.
...Sure, they have great players at other positions...
This is the important part of your post and you tried to wave it away with a disclaimer.
xoxo~
Gaz
Caught that one just in time.
milkman
03-09-2005, 09:20 AM
The Denver scenario that didn't work out perfectly is just one scenario. What about Baltimore's defense with McCallister, Miami's defense with Surtain, Washington's defense with Smoot? Sure, they have great players at other positions, but they also have the great CBs that are needed in this age.
And what about Buffalo, who had a top 5 D after losing Antonio Wingfield.
Or the Panthers with a rookie corner in '03.
They all had one thing in common.
Outstanding play in the front 7.
It all starts there.
The Denver scenario that didn't work out perfectly is just one scenario. What about Baltimore's defense with McCallister, Miami's defense with Surtain, Washington's defense with Smoot? Sure, they have great players at other positions, but they also have the great CBs that are needed in this age.
Another good post. I don't think having a top tier CB is totally unrealistic any more. In any case, it's obvious that we need serious upgrades at the position. A good CB through FA, draft a CB in the 1st round, and probably a good safety via FA/draft/Pile?
And what about Buffalo, who had a top 5 D after losing Antonio Wingfield.
Or the Panthers with a rookie corner in '03.
They all had one thing in common.
Outstanding play in the front 7.
It all starts there.
That is true. But we still need to upgrade our secondary. No doubt about that.
eazyb81
03-09-2005, 09:24 AM
And what about Buffalo, who had a top 5 D after losing Antonio Wingfield.
Or the Panthers with a rookie corner in '03.
They all had one thing in common.
Outstanding play in the front 7.
It all starts there.
Buffalo didn't have a good secondary? Nate Clements is a top 10 CB, and Lawyer Milloy and Troy Vincent are probably one of the most talented safety tandems in the league.
Of course they also have a good front 7 (why did we pass on Takeo Spikes?), but you can't have just one or the other. You have to improve both the front 7 and the secondary.
eazyb81
03-09-2005, 09:27 AM
This is the important part of your post and you tried to wave it away with a disclaimer.
xoxo~
Gaz
Caught that one just in time.
Of course we didn't look like we had any good players last year, but I think (hope) it is premature to say we don't have any player who could be great. Allen was awesome last year, Siavii should be a beast this year, Sims is in a contract year so he will suddenly be good, Dalton looked great at times last year, and Warfield would be great as a #2. I am also probably in the minority on this, but I believe Mitchell could be a very good OLB. He has the size, speed, and skills, but he has struggled at MLB.
Basically what i'm trying to say is that we could have a pretty good defense next year if our younger players with potential step it up. I am not one to believe that if they don't play great their 1st or 2nd year then they will be nothing. But time will tell.
milkman
03-09-2005, 09:28 AM
That is true. But we still need to upgrade our secondary. No doubt about that.
No question.
I just don't think we need to trade the #2 pick for Surtain.
Sign Dyson, draft a corner.
Dyson is an immediate upgrade, while the draft pick is can learn in the nickel spot, then take over as the starter later.
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