Get em Selig

[BIG_DADDY]

http://apnews1.iwon.com//article/20050317/D88STE3O0.html?PG=home&SEC=news

"Baseball's policy needs to be one of zero tolerance and it needs to have teeth," said Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md.




They are making steroid use look like murder now. Waxman, Bunning, Davis, Cummings need to get a life. The fact that baseball implimented a drug policy is enough. Who gives a rats ass if they think it's strong enough, seriously. The government has absolutely no right to monitor any professional sport. What's next proposed WWE & professional bodybuiling legislation? **** these guys what's this run the tax payers so far? What could it potentially run us if we continue running down this road? What has the war on drugs already costing us? When did we become a society that needs to micro-managed to the umpteenth degree? This is a pathetic waste of money IMO. This just in, professional athletes use performance enhancing technology. No shit, thanks for spending a bizzillion dollars accomplishing zilch. I hope baseball drops their policy period because of congress, that would be a hoot. They don't have a leg to stand on moving forward. The government is becoming WAY to big boys and girls. This is getting scary.

[jarjar]

http://apnews1.iwon.com//article/20050317/D88STE3O0.html?PG=home&SEC=news

"Baseball's policy needs to be one of zero tolerance and it needs to have teeth," said Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md.




They are making steroid use look like murder now. Waxman, Bunning, Davis, Cummings need to get a life. The fact that baseball implimented a drug policy is enough. Who gives a rats ass if they think it's strong enough, seriously. The government has absolutely no right to monitor any professional sport. What's next proposed WWE & professional bodybuiling legislation? **** these guys what's this run the tax payers so far? What could it potentially run us if we continue running down this road? What has the war on drugs already costing us? When did we become a society that needs to micro-managed to the umpteenth degree? This is a pathetic waste of money IMO. This just in, professional athletes use performance enhancing technology. No shit, thanks for spending a bizzillion dollars accomplishing zilch. I hope baseball drops their policy period because of congress, that would be a hoot. They don't have a leg to stand on moving forward. The government is becoming WAY to big boys and girls. This is getting scary.


I agree. Government needs to step the hell back.

[Simplex3]

Note to Congress: There are already laws against possessing and taking steroids.

If you morons think that you know who is taking them, get a f**king search warrant, go to their house, find the 'roids and charge the guy. Use the system, don't stand around and act like we need some new bulls**t to handle what has already been addressed.

Duh.

The only reason that Govt. gets away with crap like this is because our fine public schools don't teach govt. to the students. Nobody in this country seems to understand how it is supposed to work anymore.

"Do we really think that a government-dominated education is going to produce citizens capable of dominating their government, as the education of a truly vigilant self-governing people requires?" [Alan Keyes]

[mcan]

This just in, professional athletes use performance enhancing technology. No shit, thanks for spending a bizzillion dollars accomplishing zilch.


It's just people in suits wanting to look like they care and get votes. Baseball is "high profile" and so they want to be able to tell the public that they helped clean it up. Then they can get re-elected by the sheep that think this is some kind of big deal.

The truth is, athletes have been doing performance enhancing drugs since the 70s, and it's not going away just because people want to save face. Look at the olympics... Tons of resources are invested into making sure that those athletes are clean, but the clean ones NEVER win so most still use.

[Eleazar]

Obviously the hearing are BS but if they do anything to help bring along the strongest possible steroid policy from baseball then it will have been a good thing in the end.

[Simplex3]

Obviously the hearing are BS but if they do anything to help bring along the strongest possible steroid policy from baseball then it will have been a good thing in the end.
Please list the things in your life that will change due to the reduced use of steroids by millionaire players in baseball.

Then list the maximum amount of your money you are willing to spend to get those items taken care of.

[Mr. Kotter]

Note to Congress: There are already laws against possessing and taking steroids.

If you morons think that you know who is taking them, get a f**king search warrant, go to their house, find the 'roids and charge the guy. Use the system, don't stand around and act like we need some new bulls**t to handle what has already been addressed.

Duh.

The only reason that Govt. gets away with crap like this is because our fine public schools don't teach govt. to the students. Nobody in this country seems to understand how it is supposed to work anymore.

"Do we really think that a government-dominated education is going to produce citizens capable of dominating their government, as the education of a truly vigilant self-governing people requires?" [Alan Keyes]


Hey, it's good to see you back....how long you been back? This is the first I've seen of you in awhile. :hmmm:

[Mr. Flopnuts]

It's just people in suits wanting to look like they care and get votes. Baseball is "high profile" and so they want to be able to tell the public that they helped clean it up. Then they can get re-elected by the sheep that think this is some kind of big deal.

The truth is, athletes have been doing performance enhancing drugs since the 70s, and it's not going away just because people want to save face. Look at the olympics... Tons of resources are invested into making sure that those athletes are clean, but the clean ones NEVER win so most still use.


I couldn't agree with you more. This has zero to do about baseball, or what's "right", and everything to do with politics, looking tough, and making a stand. This is right up there with dubyas stand on abortion: Say what the conservatives want to hear and do zero to actually back it up. Good show Congress, the majority of our dumbed down society is applauding you right now

[KingPriest2]

Baseball looks like a joke with their steroid policy.

They are taking a lax attitude towards it.

So maybe this is a kick in the ass for them.

[Simplex3]

Baseball looks like a joke with their steroid policy.

They are taking a lax attitude towards it.

So maybe this is a kick in the ass for them.
I'm still trying to figure out why anyone on this board gives a crap what a bunch of millionaire athletes are doing to their bodies.

:shrug:

[bkkcoh]

Baseball looks like a joke with their steroid policy.

They are taking a lax attitude towards it.

So maybe this is a kick in the ass for them.

How bad did they look without a 'roid policy????? :hmmm:

[KingPriest2]

I'm still trying to figure out why anyone on this board gives a crap what a bunch of millionaire athletes are doing to their bodies.

:shrug:

Because they are so called "role models" From what I gathered from what I heard today they are trying to stop the cycle.

You have high schoolers taking them to stand out to get noticed by colleges and then people in colleges to get noticed by the big leagues.

You also have the minor league players trying to make the majors trying to get ahead of the next guy.


They are making people more aware of the problem. It isn't just the big leagues it filters down.

[Hoover]

The problem is Baseballs Roid Policy had to be agreeable with the Players otherwise we could have had another strike.

I think they need to take Drug Policies out of the CBA between sports leagues and player unions.

Thats what Congress should be pushing for.

[Eleazar]

I'm still trying to figure out why anyone on this board gives a crap what a bunch of millionaire athletes are doing to their bodies.

:shrug:

I'm guessing that you care what a bunch of millionaire athletes are doing with their bodies judging by the fact that you post on a sports message board.

[Simplex3]

Because they are so called "role models" From what I gathered from what I heard today they are trying to stop the cycle.

You have high schoolers taking them to stand out to get noticed by colleges and then people in colleges to get noticed by the big leagues.

You also have the minor league players trying to make the majors trying to get ahead of the next guy.


They are making people more aware of the problem. It isn't just the big leagues it filters down.
So your theory is that is that if the big league players stop taking steroids then high school students will no longer look for an edge in their desire to play college and then pro ball? Sounds more than a little dubious to me.

[KingPriest2]

How bad did they look without a 'roid policy????? :hmmm:


Yeah they did but they took a lax attitude towards it like they don't care.

10 game suspension out of 162 games $10000 dollar fine.

Yeah right. It takes more or about 2 or 3 weeks to get it out of your system.

[Simplex3]

I'm guessing that you care what a bunch of millionaire athletes are doing with their bodies judging by the fact that you post on a sports message board.
Personally I think they should remove all drug testing from sports. If they can all take whatever the hell they want then the playing field is level.

[Eleazar]

The problem is Baseballs Roid Policy had to be agreeable with the Players otherwise we could have had another strike.

I think they need to take Drug Policies out of the CBA between sports leagues and player unions.

Thats what Congress should be pushing for.

The roid policy should go like this:

-Every player pisses every 30 days.
-First violation is a warning, but a public warning
-Second = year suspension
-Third = life suspension

They should tell them to piss in the cup, or have fun playing in Japan with Tom Selleck

[Simplex3]

The problem is Baseballs Roid Policy had to be agreeable with the Players otherwise we could have had another strike.

I think they need to take Drug Policies out of the CBA between sports leagues and player unions.

Thats what Congress should be pushing for.
Why should the sports do the testing? Shouldn't law enforcement be the ones looking into this and then enforcing the already existing drug laws that we all love so much?

[KingPriest2]

So your theory is that is that if the big league players stop taking steroids then high school students will no longer look for an edge in their desire to play college and then pro ball? Sounds more than a little dubious to me.


No. Yeah they are attacking MLB TODAY. This is just the first step. YOu have to start somewhere.

[Brock]

Personally I think they should remove all drug testing from sports. If they can all take whatever the hell they want then the playing field is level.

What if you don't want to take dangerous substances? Oh, I know. Tough shit.

[KingPriest2]

Why should the sports do the testing? Shouldn't law enforcement be the ones looking into this and then enforcing the already existing drug laws that we all love so much?


So what you are saying is any employer that gives drug tests should have the law enforcement do it? That would be alot of tax payers money and too much time.

[Hoover]

Why should the sports do the testing? Shouldn't law enforcement be the ones looking into this and then enforcing the already existing drug laws that we all love so much?
I agree, but my point is that MLB and the Baseball Players Assoc had to come to an agreement on this Drug Policy. I say the players should have no say.

[Hoover]

The roid policy should go like this:

-Every player pisses every 30 days.
-First violation is a warning, but a public warning
-Second = year suspension
-Third = life suspension

They should tell them to piss in the cup, or have fun playing in Japan with Tom Selleck
Yep, I agree

[Simplex3]

What if you don't want to take dangerous substances? Oh, I know. Tough shit.
What if I, a 32 year old man with two bad knees, want to play in the NBA? Tough shit is a part of life.

It would be inevitable that there would be a clean league created, just like there are is a drug-tested bodybuilding circuit. If the fans REALLY cared about their sports being drug free then the voluntary drug-tested league would be the bigger hit. Let the market decide these things, not a bunch of stuffed shirts in Washington.

[bkkcoh]

Yeah they did but they took a lax attitude towards it like they don't care.

10 game suspension out of 162 games $10000 dollar fine.

Yeah right. It takes more or about 2 or 3 weeks to get it out of your system.


KP2,

I would agree with you on this. It should be a more harsh penalty. But that would have probably prevented an agreement with the MLBPA.

We can all remember what kind of a joke the MLB drug policy was, can't we??

How many times did Howe get suspened for cocaine??? 7, wasn't it.

[Simplex3]

So what you are saying is any employer that gives drug tests should have the law enforcement do it? That would be alot of tax payers money and too much time.
No, what I'm saying is that until there is some evidence against a person that warrants a search warrant then nobody should be tested unless you can prove that the drug can unduly endanger other people at the job site. Guys running a crane on a high-rise, for example. I hardly think that Barry Bonds is going to kill anyone if he's swinging his bat while juiced.

[KingPriest2]

KP2,

I would agree with you on this. It should be a more harsh penalty. But that would have probably prevented an agreement with the MLBPA.

We can all remember what kind of a joke the MLB drug policy was, can't we??

How many times did Howe get suspened for cocaine??? 7, wasn't it.


Yeah it was a joke.

[Brock]

What if I, a 32 year old man with two bad knees, want to play in the NBA? Tough shit is a part of life.


You not playing in the NBA is not endangering your life.

[KingPriest2]

No, what I'm saying is that until there is some evidence against a person that warrants a search warrant then nobody should be tested unless you can prove that the drug can unduly endanger other people at the job site. Guys running a crane on a high-rise, for example. I hardly think that Barry Bonds is going to kill anyone if he's swinging his bat while juiced.


But why wait til something happens when you could stop it before it begins.

[Eleazar]

You not playing in the NBA is not endangering your life.

I guess Simplex thinks that people who aren't willing to do what it takes to compete, i.e., take steroids, should simply be run out of the industry.

Like in the 1800s, when if you weren't willing to work around dangerous machinery or risk getting yourself pulled into a meatgrinder, you were out of a job at the meatpacking plant.

This is all that bastard Upton Sinclair's fault.

[Simplex3]

You not playing in the NBA is not endangering your life.
Him taking roids isn't endangering anyone's life but his own, so why do you care?

Where does it stop? We all know that driving racecars is dangerous and increases your likelihood of dying. Should we outlaw that? People who do high steel work have shorter life expectencies, should that be outlawed?

[bkkcoh]

So what you are saying is any employer that gives drug tests should have the law enforcement do it? That would be alot of tax payers money and too much time.

Unfortunately, if you get the law agencies involved, wouldn't that possibly be a violation of the 5th admendment??

[Simplex3]

I guess Simplex thinks that people who aren't willing to do what it takes to compete, i.e., take steroids, should simply be run out of the industry.

Like in the 1800s, when if you weren't willing to work around dangerous machinery or risk getting yourself pulled into a meatgrinder, you were out of a job at the meatpacking plant.

This is all that bastard Upton Sinclair's fault.
If I remember correctly, the workers (ie the public) got together and created unions, which used market forces (labor shortages) to force the factories to create safer work conditions.

Of course just because market forces always work when tried doesn't mean we should keep trying them.

[Chiefnj]

I would hope that the House Panel had more important things to worry about than a bunch of spoiled millionaires taking steriods while playing a stupid game.

[Brock]

Him taking roids isn't endangering anyone's life but his own, so why do you care?

Where does it stop? We all know that driving racecars is dangerous and increases your likelihood of dying. Should we outlaw that? People who do high steel work have shorter life expectencies, should that be outlawed?

You have some really outlandish straw men set up there, and I'm pretty sure you know that. But what the hell, I have the time. Driving race cars is not illegal. But even if it were, every driver on the circuit drives the same car, i.e. there is no unfair advantage. People who do high steel work all chose that line of work, and I'm pretty sure they're drug tested as well. Try a little harder next time.

As for your argument that an athlete taking steroids isn't endangering anyone else, that's pure poppycock. It endangers everyone in the sport who has to follow suit in order to be able to physically compete with the meathead.

[tk13]

I think the biggest mistake is just acting like baseball players are the only ones doing it. I think if the politicians really wanted to make waves they'd go after football. I have to agree with the Boozer school of thought that it's ironic that a bunch of football fans can sit and rip baseball about steroids... I don't think that everybody in the NFL is just nice and sweet and perfect and clean and only one or two people are the only ones failing the steroid test because they're the only ones doing it like many here seem to think....

[milkman]

No, what I'm saying is that until there is some evidence against a person that warrants a search warrant then nobody should be tested unless you can prove that the drug can unduly endanger other people at the job site. Guys running a crane on a high-rise, for example. I hardly think that Barry Bonds is going to kill anyone if he's swinging his bat while juiced.

The difference is that the union, hence the players, agreed to drug testing.
They are not infringing on their rights if the players are telling, in essence, they can test.

Without that agreement, baseball couldn't have implemented any drug test policy at all.

[Simplex3]

Here is my plan:

Accepting the premise that "people" want the drugs out of baseball, that should mean that over 50% of the population wants it.

If over 50% of the population wants drugs out of baseball, the plan is simple and requires no govt. intervention. All that 50%+ has to do is stop supporting baseball. When baseball's revenues are cut by 50%+ the saleries will go down. When the salaries go down the players (who are taking the drugs in the first place) will feel the pressue to stop, thus re-attracting the 50%+ of fans that wanted the drugs out.

Of course I still think it's hooey that there are that many people who care if Bonds is juiced, just so long as he's putting 30 balls a year in the bay.

[Brock]

I think the biggest mistake is just acting like baseball players are the only ones doing it. I think if the politicians really wanted to make waves they'd go after football. I have to agree with the Boozer school of thought that it's ironic that a bunch of football fans can sit and rip baseball about steroids... I don't think that everybody in the NFL is just nice and sweet and perfect and clean and only one or two people are the only ones failing the steroid test because they're the only ones doing it like many here seem to think....

The NFL has had a drug testing program in place for years. Baseball has resisted it, and now it's biting them in the ass. The effect of the program is debateable, but nobody can say the NFL isn't trying.

[Soupnazi]

At this point, I really don't care how this thing ends up going. However, the degree to which the politicians are using this as an opportunity to beat their chests and grandstand is unprecedented.

[Brock]

At this point, I really don't care how this thing ends up going. However, the degree to which the politicians are using this as an opportunity to beat their chests and grandstand is unprecedented.

I agree with that. Seeing these politicians pretend to care about baseball is almost funny.

[Simplex3]

At this point, I really don't care how this thing ends up going. However, the degree to which the politicians are using this as an opportunity to beat their chests and grandstand is unprecedented.
Especially when you consider baseball has an anti-trust exemption from these same idiots who are beating their chest.

[tk13]

The NFL has had a drug testing program in place for years. Baseball has resisted it, and now it's biting them in the ass. The effect of the program is debateable, but nobody can say the NFL isn't trying.
Eh, who's to say the NFL isn't just trying to look like they are "trying" to look good but really turning a blind eye to things?.... the NFL has athletes that have to be bigger, faster, stronger than every other major sport, there's no way they're all clean, and if the NFL wanted to find them, they would.

[Brock]

Eh, who's to say the NFL isn't just trying to look like they are "trying" to look good but really turning a blind eye to things?.... the NFL has athletes that have to be bigger, faster, stronger than every other major sport, there's no way they're all clean, and if the NFL wanted to find them, they would.

If all they wanted to do was "look good", they probably wouldn't have run a major star like Rickey Williams out of the league.

[Hoover]

KP2,

I would agree with you on this. It should be a more harsh penalty. But that would have probably prevented an agreement with the MLBPA.

We can all remember what kind of a joke the MLB drug policy was, can't we??

How many times did Howe get suspened for cocaine??? 7, wasn't it.
Thats is why Drug Policies should not be part of the CBAs. Maybe there needs to be Fed oversite, christ I'm calling for more Government Ahhhhhh

[KingPriest2]

Frequently Asked Questions
Congressional Hearing on Steroids in Baseball

By Dan Jung
washingtonpost.com Staff Writer
Wednesday, March 16, 2005; 8:00 PM

Why is Congress investigating steroid use in baseball?

Rep. Henry A. Waxman (D-Calif.), ranking Democrat on the House Government Reform Committee, said the main motivation for the investigation is the rising use of steroids among the country's children. Along with testimony from baseball players and executives, the committee also calls upon medical experts and parents whose children committed suicide after using steroids.


"Kids are dying from the use of steroids. They're looking up to these major league leaders in terms of the enhancements that they're using. And we have to stop it," Waxman said in an interview March 13, 2005 on NBC's "Meet the Press."
Rep. Thomas M. Davis III (R-Va.), the committee's chairman, adds that baseball's image and integrity are also on the line. "There's a cloud over baseball, and perhaps a public discussion of the issues, with witnesses testifying under oath, can provide a glimpse of sunlight."
Transcript: Excerpt from "Meet the Press" (March 13, 2005)

Committee Seeks Steroid 'Discussion' (The Washington Post, March 4, 2005)

Why wasn't Barry Bonds subpoenaed?

Committee members cite a continuing grand jury investigation into BALCO, the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative whose founder has been indicted for distributing steroids to top athletes, and fear the hearing would become too focused on Barry Bonds as reasons he was not subpoenaed. Jason Giambi, who was originally subpoenaed, has since been excused because of his role in the same federal case against BALCO.

"The problem of steroids has been systematic throughout baseball," Davis said March 13, 2005 on NBC's "Meet the Press." "You bring Bonds in, it's going to be just about Barry Bonds. It's more widespread than that."

Transcript: Excerpt from "Meet the Press" (March 13, 2005)

What is the BALCO investigation?

In 2003 a federal jury began an investigation into BALCO after reports surfaced that the company was providing performance-enhancing drugs to track and field athletes. Many prominent baseball players, such as Barry Bonds and Jason Giambi, have since been subpoenaed to testify before the grand jury. In February 2004 BALCO's president, Victor Conte Jr., and three of his associates, among them Bonds's personal trainer, were indicted for conspiring to distribute steroids and other drugs to dozens of professional athletes.

Four Are Charged in High-Profile Steroid Case (The Washington Post, Feb. 13, 2004)

Who's Who in the BALCO Investigation (The Washington Post, Dec. 4, 2004)


Didn't Congress already hold hearings about steroid use in baseball?

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) did call a hearing in March 2004 that questioned steroid abuse in sports. But McCain used it as an opportunity to chide baseball on the state of its drug-testing policy and warned the sport "is about to become a fraud."



McCain threatened the sport with legislative action if it did not strengthen its standards and queried, "I don't understand why you don't have a policy as strong as the NFL." Within a year, baseball had devised a new steroid policy equivalent to the NFL's.
Senate Warns Baseball on Steroids Testing (The Washington Post, March, 11, 2004)

Graphic: Baseball's New Policy Analyzed (The Washington Post, Jan. 15, 2005)

What is baseball's new steroid policy?

Major League Baseball unveiled a tougher policy in January 2005 that contained stiffer penalties and heavier fines for players caught using performance-enhancing drugs. The new policy would require that all players be tested at least once during the regular season and that players may be tested at random any time year-round. The policy, however, still falls below standards used at the minor league level and common procedures used at the Olympics.
Graphic: Baseball's New Policy Analyzed (The Washington Post, Jan. 15, 2005)

Baseball Moves to Strengthen Its Drug Policy (The Washington Post, Jan. 14, 2005)

Why does baseball have an antitrust exemption?

In 1922 the Supreme Court granted the sport an exemption from the country's antitrust laws. Justice Holmes argued that while baseball does cross state lines the game is an "exhibition" and "is not a subject of commerce."
Why doesn't Congress investigate steroid use in other sports?

Waxman said that steroid abuse is a problem in other sports and that he wants to pursue standardized drug testing across all sports. "Maybe one thing we ought to look at is one standard for all of the athletic teams, maybe the Olympic standard," Waxman said on NBC's "Meet the Press."

Transcript: Excerpt from "Meet the Press" (March 13, 2005)

What else does the House Committee on Government Reform oversee?

One of the most long-reaching committees in Congress, the group is broken up into seven subcommittees and has oversight on a broad range of topics. The Subcommittee on National Security, Emerging Threats and International Relations oversees security at home and abroad. Other subcommittees have jurisdiction over the Department of Justice, oversight over the financial accountability of federal agencies, and the federal court system.

Committee on Government Reform: Official Web Site

[KingPriest2]

McGwire Tells Panel He Won't Name Names

29 minutes ago Top Stories - AP


By HOWARD FENDRICH and RONALD BLUM, AP Sports Writers

WASHINGTON - Retired slugger Mark McGwire on Thursday told a congressional panel investigating drugs in baseball that he would not "participate in naming names" of players who used steroids.



McGwire did not say in his opening statement to the House Government Reform Committee (news - web sites) whether he used steroids.


Two current players, Sammy Sosa and Rafael Palmeiro, said they never used steroids. That duo and McGwire were accused of using performance-enhancing drugs by Jose Canseco in a best-selling book that helped prompt the hearing.


It was an extraordinary sight under the bright lights of congressional hearing-drama in which some of the foremost household names in the baseball world appeared in business suits. This was in stark contrast to the colorful uniforms that fans associate with them.


In a tense scene, Canseco sat at the same table as the other players as he told the lawmakers that he could not fully answer their questions because of concerns his testimony could be used against him.


Choking back tears, his voice cracking, McGwire said he knows that steroid use can be dangerous and will do whatever he can to discourage young athletes from using them.

"What I will not do, however, is participate in naming names and implicating my friends and teammates," said McGwire, who ranks sixth in major league history with 583 homers.


The hearing featuring came after committee members accused baseball of ignoring its steroids problem for years and then, only under congressional pressure, embracing a weak testing program.
Lawmakers were particularly critical of the plan's penalties, including a provision allowing for fines instead of suspensions. A first offense could cost a player $10,000 instead of 10 days out from a 162-game season.


Baseball commissioner Bud Selig sat with arms crossed and lips pursed for much of the hearing. He craned his neck to get a better view as the players spoke.


In prepared testimony he planned to give later in the day, Selig defended the steroids policy drawn up in January, saying it's "as good as any in professional sports" and adding that he agreed to shorter bans "on the theory that behavior modification should be the most important goal of our policy."

Baseball had fought attempts to compel the players to testify, but committee chairman Tom Davis, R-Va., and ranking Democrat Henry Waxman of California threatened to pursue contempt charges if they did not appear.

More than four hours after the hearing began, the players walked in one by one as spectators, lawmakers and media in the cramped hearing room fell silent.


Curt Schilling, the Boston Red Sox (news) pitcher who's been outspoken against steroid use, was the first to enter. He sat at one end of the witness table, with Canseco at the other. Palmeiro, Sosa, McGwire and the players' lawyers were in between.


Schilling took a shot at Canseco, saying the former slugger's claims "should be seen for what they are: an attempt to make money at the expense of others."


All of the players offered condolences to the parents of two young baseball players who committed suicide after using steroids. The parents testified earlier, along with medical experts who talked about the possible effects of the drugs: heart disease, cancer, sterility, depression.


"Players that are guilty of taking steroids are not only cheaters — you are cowards," said Donald Hooton of Plano, Texas, whose son, Taylor, was 17 when he hanged himself in July 2003.


"You hide behind the skirts of your union, and with the help of management and your lawyers, you've made every effort to resist facing the public today," Hooton said.
The group of players included three of the top 10 home run hitters in major league history — McGwire, Sosa and Palmeiro. McGwire and Sosa were widely credited with boosting baseball's popularity in 1998 when they chased to break Roger Maris' season record of 61 homers.

Canseco, the 1988 American League Most Valuable Player, wrote that he used steroids and that he injected McGwire with them.

But Canseco, who retired in 2001, told Thursday's panel that "because of my fear of future prosecution ... I can not be candid with this committee."

At the hearing's start, almost all of the congressmen shared a personal baseball anecdote or professed their love for the game before leveling their harsh critiques.

The panel's first witness was Sen. Jim Bunning (news, bio, voting record), R-Ky., a former pitcher elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1996. He called the sport's steroid penalties "really puny." Bunning and others said Congress should impose tougher rules if baseball doesn't.

There's no pending bill; Davis and Waxman set out to shed light on the issue Thursday, but they've said there could be future hearings. The House Energy and Commerce Committee has raised the possibility of pursuing legislation down the road

[tk13]

If all they wanted to do was "look good", they probably wouldn't have run a major star like Rickey Williams out of the league.
Since when did Ricky Williams get suspended for steroids? I must have missed when they started spelling that drug "marijuana".....

[Calcountry]

Look, steroid use is a question of ethics for me. Black and white. Using them is cheating, period. Cheating for competition in whatever, baseball, football, chasing women, whatever. It is cheating.

Feel really good about your acomplishments, you had to juice up to get there.

Hope the side effects later in life don't jump up and bite you in the ass.

[Eleazar]

Feel really good about your acomplishments, you had to juice up to get there.

Now son, remember, it's important to always play fair, never cheat, and respect the game.

Also, it's important not to use drugs or alcohol or anything your other Jr. High friends are doing because those things are harmful. It's not OK to do them just because everyone else is.

So, in summary, do as I say and not as I did.

[Brock]

Since when did Ricky Williams get suspended for steroids? I must have missed when they started spelling that drug "marijuana".....

The specific drug he was suspended for is immaterial. The NFL tests for most any drug, not just steroids. There have been several players suspended for performance enhancing drugs. The bottom line is, the NFL at least puts forth the effort.

[KingPriest2]

Top Stories - Reuters


Congress Suggests National Steroid Law

Thu Mar 17,12:26 PM ET Top Stories - Reuters


By Andy Sullivan

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. lawmakers on Thursday said a national anti-steroid policy might be needed to deter the use of illegal performance-enhancing drugs among Major League Baseball players and the student athletes who idolize them
As a high-profile showdown between Congress and baseball got underway, lawmakers said the sport bore responsibility for spiraling rates of illegal steroid use among high school athletes and needed to do more to clean up its act.
"You can't do this just by sending people into the classrooms and talking about it. You've got to start from the top down," said Virginia Rep. Tom Davis, chairman of the House of Representatives Government Reform Committee.

Other lawmakers suggested Congress could revoke the sport's antitrust exemption that has shielded it from competition.
"They are not bigger than the game and they are certainly not bigger than the law of the land," said Kentucky Republican Sen. Jim Bunning (news, bio, voting record), a former pitcher in the Baseball Hall of Fame.

Baseball has come under widespread scrutiny following allegations arising from the landmark BALCO lab case in California that some top players enhanced their performance with muscle-building steroids.

Some of the sport's biggest stars, along with several top baseball officials, were scheduled to testify.

The witnesses include ex-slugger Jose Canseco, who says there has been widespread use of steroids in the game despite claims to the contrary by Major League Baseball.

"Why did I take steroids? The answer is simple. Because myself and others had no choice if we wanted to continue playing. Because MLB did nothing to take it out of the sport," Canseco said in prepared testimony.

Canseco, a former Oakland Athletics star, said in his recent controversial book he took steroids with some of the biggest names in the game, including former home-run king Mark McGwire, now retired, and Rafael Palmeiro, now with the Baltimore Orioles. Both deny Canseco's charges and were scheduled to testify.


POLICY BEARS FRUIT

The leading two U.S. major professional sports, baseball and NFL, have lagged behind the rest of the world in tackling the issue of illegal drug use and imposing penalties.
WHAT? THE NFL? MLB YES BUT THE NFL?

The World Anti-Doping Agency, created in 1999 to set international standards for combating drugs in sports and to pursue illegal users, has attacked baseball for not cracking down harder on cheats.

MLB Commissioner Bud Selig said the sport's anti-steroid efforts are bearing fruit. Fewer than 2 percent of tests were positive last year, down from 5 to 7 percent in 2003, the first year of testing, he said in prepared testimony.

A new policy announced in January says players who fail drug tests would be identified and suspended for 10 days.

Yet the committee said on Wednesday that a subpoenaed copy of the policy, marked "still in draft form," showed violators could instead be fined and not identified.

Rob Manfred, an MLB executive vice president, issued a statement insisting baseball would suspend and identify violators.

Lawmakers said a national anti-drug policy may be necessary because baseball's attempts at self-regulation have been a bust.
"For 30 years Major League Baseball has told us to trust them, but the league hasn't honored that trust," said California Democratic Rep. Henry Waxman (news, bio, voting record).

Other players scheduled to testify include slugger Sammy Sosa, who has denied using steroids, along with Curt Schilling and Frank Thomas, both outspoken opponents of steroids.

(Additional reporting by Thomas Ferraro

[tk13]

The specific drug he was suspended for is immaterial. The NFL tests for most any drug, not just steroids. There have been several players suspended for performance enhancing drugs. The bottom line is, the NFL at least puts forth the effort.
Oh sure it is... if they started suspending too many players for steroids, people would take notice, and more people would start to investigate.... and then they'd be sitting here in front of Congress too. I think it is completely naive to think football players do not take performance enhancing substances across the board...

[Brock]

Oh sure it is... if they started suspending too many players for steroids, people would take notice, and more people would start to investigate.... and then they'd be sitting here in front of Congress too. I think it is completely naive to think football players do not take performance enhancing substances across the board...

Let me see if I understand you.....Baseball is sitting in Congress today, because too many players tested positive in a testing program that didn't exist.

[Ghostof]

About time the gov't steps in and takes control.

Baseball players make too much money.


What gets me is that Pete Rose, who just gambled on games, isnt allowed in the hall of fame.....but yet dumbasses who are shooting up 'roids are in.


Everyone should be tested and anyone found having used the roids in the past or present should be kicked from the league and all records erased.

[tk13]

Let me see if I understand you.....Baseball is sitting in Congress today, because too many players tested positive in a testing program that didn't exist.
No, that is not what I said. I was just referring to the fact that everybody sits here and acts like the NFL is high and mighty with this supreme testing plan and none of the good little boys in the NFL use steroids while sluring baseball players up and down and how crooked everything is. It's completely hypocritical, that's all.... I don't condone any of it, and I'm also not stupid enough to believe it's not much more widespread in the NFL than people are led to believe...

[Calcountry]

Now son, remember, it's important to always play fair, never cheat, and respect the game.

Also, it's important not to use drugs or alcohol or anything your other Jr. High friends are doing because those things are harmful. It's not OK to do them just because everyone else is.

So, in summary, do as I say and not as I did.Dude, if you want to juice, thats fine with me, its your body. But I have ownership of my own body and that crap is not meant to be put into it as far as I am concerned.

If you like to blow dubies, thats cool, its your brain. Just extend me the equal courtesy of not value judging me just because I choose not to do that chit.

[milkman]

Everyone should be tested and anyone found having used the roids in the past or present should be kicked from the league and all records erased.

I guess someone should really get to work on that time machine.

[Calcountry]

Dude, if you want to juice, thats fine with me, its your body. But I have ownership of my own body and that crap is not meant to be put into it as far as I am concerned.

If you like to blow dubies, thats cool, its your brain. Just extend me the equal courtesy of not value judging me just because I choose not to do that chit.

I am sorry, I didn't make the connection to the pic, until now. rock on. :p

[Alton deFlat]

I was listening to ESPN radio earlier, when a female member of Congress spoke and said she was happy that no Detroit Tigers were mentioned in the proceedings. Dan Patrick said, "in looking at the Tigers record the past few years, maybe they should have been using steroids."

[Brock]

No, that is not what I said. I was just referring to the fact that everybody sits here and acts like the NFL is high and mighty with this supreme testing plan and none of the good little boys in the NFL use steroids while sluring baseball players up and down and how crooked everything is. It's completely hypocritical, that's all.... I don't condone any of it, and I'm also not stupid enough to believe it's not much more widespread in the NFL than people are led to believe...

I guess as soon as you produce something other than opinion to support your argument, I'll believe you.

[tk13]

I guess as soon as you produce something other than opinion to support your argument, I'll believe you.
Common sense. There isn't a position on the football field that players aren't striving to be bigger, faster, and stronger in except kicker. All athletes in every sport are looking for advantages wherever they can. Performance enhancing drugs will help you in football far more than baseball, because in baseball you still have to have incredible hand-eye coordination to succeed, in football you just have to be faster, and you can go track down and tackle that running back, or outrun a CB deep down the field.

Woody Paige was talking about this on ESPN the other day, I'm amazed more people haven't talked about it either. As Woody said, he's talked to football players, he's been around NFL players for years. Said he wasn't going to name any names but if you don't think these guys know how to use masking agents and the like then you're living in a fantasyland.

[KingPriest2]

The players just reported that they supported a independent testing agency and future legaislation if needed.

[KingPriest2]

Now they are drilling Big Mac.

They asked the players if using roids is a form of cheating and he stated he is not the one to determine it

Then they ask him that he wants to be a spokesman and what he would say. He stated that they are bad. Well the follow question was Well how do you know that? Big Macs attorney told him not to answer it.

Why doesn't he just come out and say he took them? He is looking like a fool lately.

[Logical]

... (http://apnews1.iwon.com//article/20050317/D88STE3O0.html?PG=home&SEC=news)



They are making steroid use look like murder now. Waxman, Bunning, Davis, Cummings need to get a life. The fact that baseball implimented a drug policy is enough. Who gives a rats ass if they think it's strong enough, seriously. The government has absolutely no right to monitor any professional sport. What's next proposed WWE & professional bodybuiling legislation? **** these guys what's this run the tax payers so far? What could it potentially run us if we continue running down this road? What has the war on drugs already costing us? When did we become a society that needs to micro-managed to the umpteenth degree? This is a pathetic waste of money IMO. This just in, professional athletes use performance enhancing technology. No shit, thanks for spending a bizzillion dollars accomplishing zilch. I hope baseball drops their policy period because of congress, that would be a hoot. They don't have a leg to stand on moving forward. The government is becoming WAY to big boys and girls. This is getting scary.:thumb::thumb::thumb:

[KingPriest2]

:thumb::thumb::thumb:


:shake:

[bogie]

There should be a standard drug testing policy across the board for every sport. Bottom line, it's cheating. It's no different than a corked bat, an illegal club in golf, greased uniforms, etc. An illegally enhanced body is no different than an illegally enhanced piece of equipment. It's that simple and anyone that can't see that is wearing blinders. If the sports world doesn't want to test properly, government should step in.

[KingPriest2]

There should be a standard drug testing policy across the board for every sport. Bottom line, it's cheating. It's no different than a corked bat, an illegal club in golf, greased uniforms, etc. An illegally enhanced body is no different than an illegally enhanced piece of equipment. It's that simple and anyone that can't see that is wearing blinders. If the sports world doesn't want to test properly, government should step in.


Big Mac can't comment if it is cheating or not. He is leaving that for Bud

[bogie]

Big Mac can't comment if it is cheating or not. He is leaving that for Bud

IMHO, Big Mac's attorney has advised him poorly. He's trying not to tarnish his image and his dumbassery is having an oposite effect.

[KingPriest2]

IMHO, Big Mac's attorney has advised him poorly. He's trying not to tarnish his image and his dumbassery is having an oposite effect.


From what I am gathering Congress is disappointed in the players.

[Simplex3]

From what I am gathering Congress is disappointed in the players.
What a hoot, CONGRESS of all groups, is disappointed in some other group? ROFL

[bogie]

What a hoot, CONGRESS of all groups, is disappointed in some other group? ROFL

Why do you have a bad opinion of Congress?

[KingPriest2]

Ballplayers face steroid questions from House panel
From staff and wire reports
WASHINGTON — Former Major League Baseball star Mark McGwire told a congressional panel Thursday he will "not participate in naming names" of players who used steroids, while current players Sammy Sosa and Rafael Palmiero said they had never used the performance-enhancing drug.

McGwire testifes Thursday before the congressional panel investigating steroid use.
By Tim Dillon, USA TODAY

The three are among a group of current and former players testifying this afternoon before the House Government Reform Committee. A clearly emotional McGwire appeared to choke back tears as he said, "There has been a problem with steroid use in baseball." However, he did not directly address the question of whether he had used the drug. (LIVE: House panel hearing)

McGwire has not directly faced that question from the committee, although members pressed it peripherally, apparently holding back because of House rules that might have required a direct question to be asked in a closed hearing. (Video: Players testify before panel)

McGwire was asked by Rep. Patrick McHenry, R-N.C., whether he considered steroid use to be cheating. "That's not for me to determine," he said.

And after saying he was willing to speak against the use of steroids by athletes, McGwire was asked by McHenry about what knowledge he could bring to the topic — an apparent attempt to back into the steroid use issue. McGwire said he had decided, "by my attorney's advice, not to comment on this issue."
He deflected a question about his use during his playing days of androstenedione, a now-banned substance in baseball that was sold as a dietary supplement. "I'm not here to talk about that. I'm here to talk about the positive, not the negative, of this issue," he said.

Former player Jose Canseco, who has admitted to using steroids, and current players Frank Thomas and Curt Schilling, who are vocal steroid opponents, also are testifying. Thomas is testifying via video linkup.

Canseco immediately asked for congressional immunity for his testimony, which was denied. His book Juiced: Wild Times, Rampant 'Roids, Smash Hits & How Baseball Got Big helped amplify the growing controversy over performance-enhancing drug use in sports.

Sosa and Palmeiro, both mentioned in Canseco's book, immediately told committee members they had never used steroids. (Related: Baseball's steroid policy {Adobe PDF file})

"I have never used steroids, period," Palmeiro said, pointing directly at panel members. "Never."

"To be clear," Sosa said in a statement read by his lawyer, "I have never taken illegal performance-enhancing drugs. I have never injected myself or had anyone inject me with anything. "

In highly accented English, Sosa, a Dominican whose native language is Spanish, told the committee, "I'm willing to work with you guys and do the best that I can."

Canseco is testifying without the immunity from prosecution he sought. Canseco's lawyer, Robert Saunooke, said that without it Canseco "can't be candid with them, and it really begs the question as to whether Congress really wants to get to the bottom of this."

There was clear tension between Canseco and the other former and current ballplayers. At one point, the group was asked whether they knew that other players were using steroids. Only Canseco said he was certain. Palmeiro replied, "Unless you were Jose and you were actually using, I don't think you knew."

And later, when asked whether Canseco had overestimated the percentage of players using steroids, Schilling said, "I think he's a liar."

During a break after the players' opening statements, five of the stars gathered in one nearby room, and Canseco went to another.

Earlier Thursday, a group of parents whose sons committed suicide after using steroids gave heart-wrenching testimony, saying professional athletes and team owners must end its use.

"Players who are guilty of taking steroids are not only cheaters — you are cowards," said Donald Hooton, whose son Taylor, a Plano, Texas baseball player, committed suicide in 2003 after taking steroids. Depression is one potential side effect of steroid use.

"You hide behind the skirts of your union and with the help of management and your lawyers, you have made every effort to avoid facing the public today," Hooton said. "Major League Baseball and other sports need to take serious steps to stop the use of steroids."

Hooton, other parents and medical professionals testified before the panel. "There is no doubt in our minds that steroids killed our son," said Denise Garibaldi, whose son committed suicide after using steroids in 2002.

Panel members clashed repeatedly with Dr. Elliot Pellman, MLB's chief medical adviser, about the enforcement of baseball's anti-steroid policy and exactly what the policy states. Pellman said widespread steroid use should be treated like a "insidious, contagious disease," because it could cause less-talented players to use drugs to "level the playing field."

Committee Chairman Tom Davis, R-Va., said earlier Thursday the panel plans to "break the code of silence" on the use of steroids.

"We're in the first inning of what could be an extra-inning ballgame," Davis said in opening the hearing. "This is the beginning, not the end."

"Major League Baseball and the players' association greeted word of our inquiry first as a nuisance, then as a negotiation, replete with misstatements," Davis said. "I understand that they just wish it would go away, but I think they misjudged the seriousness of our purpose."

Rep. Henry Waxman of California, the committee's ranking Democrat, said baseball had been too slow to react to the steroid problem. "The allegations and revelations about steroid use in baseball have only intensified in recent months," he said. "For 30 years, Major League Baseball has told us to trust them, but the league hasn't honored that trust."

Sen. Jim Bunning of Kentucky, a MLB Hall of Fame pitcher, told the panel that baseball should be allowed to try to resolve the steroids problem on its own, "but if they backslide and don't follow through, they need to know we can and will act."

Bunning openly questioned the performance of modern-day baseball players, saying players of his era "didn't hit more home runs in their late 30s than they did in their late 20s."

The House panel will hear later Thursday from MLB Commissioner Bud Selig, along with other baseball executives.

Selig, in his prepared statement, defended the steroids policy drawn up in January, saying it's "as good as any in professional sports" and adding that he agreed to shorter bans "on the theory that behavior modification should be the most important goal of our policy."

First-time offenders are suspended for at least four games in the National Football League (which has 16-game seasons) and for five games in the National Basketball Association (which plays 82 in a season). Most Olympic sports call for a two-year ban for a first positive test and a lifetime ban for a second.

In his prepared testimony, union head Donald Fehr defended the policy and cautioned Congress about getting involved in collective bargaining agreements.

He also said that revealing names of players who fail drug tests "could be devastating and certainly will be a significant deterrent."

One subpoenaed player was excused from testifying at all, New York Yankees slugger Jason Giambi, who reportedly told a grand jury investigating a steroid-distribution ring in 2003 that he used steroids.

Never invited to appear was another star who testified to that grand jury, Barry Bonds, who broke McGwire's season record by hitting 73 homers in 2001 and is approaching Hank Aaron's career mark of 755.

Contributing:USATODAY.com's Randy Lilleston, USA TODAY's Chris Jenkins and Hal Bodley and The Associated Press.

[BIG_DADDY]

Obviously the hearing are BS but if they do anything to help bring along the strongest possible steroid policy from baseball then it will have been a good thing in the end.

Then you spend your money on it dude, not mine it's BS. Doping is here to stay forever get real. Legislation is not the answer to everything in life. Your hitting on what bugs the freakin shit out of me about the right. THey want to legislate the whole world with their ****ing morality. You don't like roids don't take em dude. I don't want to spend the money we have even on these hearings much less out lawing them, enforcing the law and then legislation. How many billion ****ing substances do you people need before you you knock it off? How much money are you guys going to spend before you realize this is horseshit?

[BIG_DADDY]

The roid policy should go like this:

-Every player pisses every 30 days.
-First violation is a warning, but a public warning
-Second = year suspension
-Third = life suspension

They should tell them to piss in the cup, or have fun playing in Japan with Tom Selleck

You piss in cup WTF. Who the **** are you to tell anyone to piss in a cup? Seriously I like you dude but your opinions on this off the scale govermental control of the populace are very, very scary.

[Calcountry]

From what I am gathering Congress is disappointed in the players.I am disappointed in Congress, but since when did Congress give a chit about my feelings?

[BIG_DADDY]

I agree, but my point is that MLB and the Baseball Players Assoc had to come to an agreement on this Drug Policy. I say the players should have no say.

The government does not belong in professional sports, period. If the league wants to do something on their own that is their business. As a tax payer I do not want my money going twords this it's complete crap.

[nychief]

baseball has a unique antitrust agreement with Congress - they have every right to ask these questions.

[BIG_DADDY]

About time the gov't steps in and takes control.

Baseball players make too much money.


What gets me is that Pete Rose, who just gambled on games, isnt allowed in the hall of fame.....but yet dumbasses who are shooting up 'roids are in.


Everyone should be tested and anyone found having used the roids in the past or present should be kicked from the league and all records erased.

Yea, well I think somebody should put a gun to your mouth and blow the top of your worthless freakin head off but that's just my opinion.

[Calcountry]

The government does not belong in professional sports, period. If the league wants to do something on their own that is their business. As a tax payer I do not want my money going twords this it's complete crap.Hey Big D, are you aware that Congress has given MLB an anti-trust exemption?

They are involved in baseball, always have been. Unless, of course, if MLB would like to give up that anti trust exemption and be broken up to insure "free market competition".

Like it or not, the government PWNS us.

If we don't like it, we can renounce our citizenship and move somewhere else I guess. :p

[Brock]

Yea, well I think somebody should put a gun to your mouth and blow the top of your worthless freakin head off but that's just my opinion.

ROFL

[Calcountry]

baseball has a unique antitrust agreement with Congress - they have every right to ask these questions.You beat me to it. :thumb:

[Calcountry]

Yea, well I think somebody should put a gun to your mouth and blow the top of your worthless freakin head off but that's just my opinion.ROFL

[BIG_DADDY]

If we don't like it, we can renounce our citizenship and move somewhere else I guess. :p

Wow, never thought I would hear that from you dude. :shake:

[BIG_DADDY]

baseball has a unique antitrust agreement with Congress - they have every right to ask these questions.

Yea well **** the government, at least those who want to grow into giant cluster**** that invades every element of all of our lives.

[jcl-kcfan2]

http://apnews1.iwon.com//article/20050317/D88STE3O0.html?PG=home&SEC=news

"Baseball's policy needs to be one of zero tolerance and it needs to have teeth," said Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md.




They are making steroid use look like murder now. Waxman, Bunning, Davis, Cummings need to get a life. The fact that baseball implimented a drug policy is enough. Who gives a rats ass if they think it's strong enough, seriously. The government has absolutely no right to monitor any professional sport. What's next proposed WWE & professional bodybuiling legislation? **** these guys what's this run the tax payers so far? What could it potentially run us if we continue running down this road? What has the war on drugs already costing us? When did we become a society that needs to micro-managed to the umpteenth degree? This is a pathetic waste of money IMO. This just in, professional athletes use performance enhancing technology. No shit, thanks for spending a bizzillion dollars accomplishing zilch. I hope baseball drops their policy period because of congress, that would be a hoot. They don't have a leg to stand on moving forward. The government is becoming WAY to big boys and girls. This is getting scary.


If everyone wants the gov't. out of baseball, I totally agree with them.
But, that also means I want the Anti-Trust Exemption baseball has gone also.

Let another organization have a chance to put a product on the field (like Lamar and the AFL did).

[BIG_DADDY]

I agree with that. Seeing these politicians pretend to care about baseball is almost funny.

It's for the kids man, think about the kids. ROFL

These guys deception makes satan look like a good guy.

[nychief]

Yea, well I think somebody should put a gun to your mouth and blow the top of your worthless freakin head off but that's just my opinion.


gee, well said.
sorta along the lines of "vote or die" except stupid and pointless.

union yes....or else!

[siberian khatru]

What a grandstanding farce.

And I've said for years that Congress should revoke baseball's anti-trust exemption.

[BIG_DADDY]

gee, well said.
sorta along the lines of "vote or die" except stupid and pointless.

union yes....or else!

Are you ever on the right side of any subject?

[BIG_DADDY]

If everyone wants the gov't. out of baseball, I totally agree with them.
But, that also means I want the Anti-Trust Exemption baseball has gone also.

Let another organization have a chance to put a product on the field (like Lamar and the AFL did).

Amen

[Calcountry]

Wow, never thought I would hear that from you dude. :shake:You did notice the smiley didn't you?

I guess I am so run down, that the fight just isn't left in me dude.

The government has beaten me into submission.

[BIG_DADDY]

You did notice the smiley didn't you?

I guess I am so run down, that the fight just isn't left in me dude.

The government has beaten me into submission.

Just keep a nice arsenal, that always makes me feel better. :)

[Calcountry]

Just keep a nice arsenal, that always makes me feel better. :)Sometimes the micro(personal life issues) get so heavy, that all these tangential macro(big bad government) issues seem moot.

That is what I was trying inefectively to say. IOW, why bother, I need to worry bout me and the kids. Know what I mean?

Take nothing away from your libertarian arguments, they are strong as they have ever been and I agree with a lot of them.

I think drugs are bad, but if a person wants to jump off the GG Bridge, I dont' think the government should try to stop them.

[Simplex3]

Why do you have a bad opinion of Congress?
Let me count the ways:

1. They forcibly take my money, then they spend it on vitally important things such as a third railroad museum in PA which, it just so happens, will be built by the Senator's brother. Just like the first two.

2. They always talk about budget deficits, but I have NEVER heard them speak of cutting spending as a solution. The only solutions are to a) raise taxes or b) grow the economy so that you're getting more taxes.

..........

I just hope you were kidding.

[Calcountry]

Let me count the ways:

1. They forcibly take my money, then they spend it on vitally important things such as a third railroad museum in PA which, it just so happens, will be built by the Senator's brother. Just like the first two.

2. They always talk about budget deficits, but I have NEVER heard them speak of cutting spending as a solution. The only solutions are to a) raise taxes or b) grow the economy so that you're getting more taxes.

..........

I just hope you were kidding.Shwarzennegger got elected Governor of Ca. by focusing only on the grow the economy so that you are getting more taxes facet.

Which is why I voted for McClintock.