GRETZ: Locker Room Rumblings

[dirk digler]

Great article by Gretz. :thumb:

http://kcchiefs.com/news/2005/03/21/gretz_locker_room_rumblings/

GRETZ: Locker Room Rumblings
Mar 21, 2005, 4:51:27 AM by Bob Gretz


Most of the movers and shakers of the NFL are spending the early part of this week over in Maui at the league’s annual March meeting. I tried to convince the folks at kcchiefs.com that this event needed in-person coverage, but they didn’t bite.

So this epistle is not about warm trade wind breezes and watching whales frolic off the beach and whether or not the Super Bowl is coming to Arrowhead. No, we’ll keep the conversation closer to home.

Last Friday, the Kansas City Star published a story involving Chiefs safety Greg Wesley. Basically, it was a late reaction to the team’s signing of free agent safety Sammy Knight.

Asked his thoughts on the addition of Knight, here’s how Wesley was quoted:

“I don’t have a problem with them bringing somebody else in. I’m happy they’re bringing some guys in to help the defense. Everybody knows the defense needs to improve. After the year we had, I expected something like this to happen.

“I just didn’t expect it to happen to me.”

Read that last part again: “I just didn’t expect it to happen to me.”

Wesley’s surprise shouldn’t come as a shock. From 2002-2004, the Chiefs have had one of the worst NFL defenses in each of those three seasons, yet very few changes have been made to the playing roster. First, here are the gruesome rankings:

Who has paid the price for this poor defensive production? Until now, the only victim was Greg Robinson, who fell on his sword after the 2003 season and left Dick Vermeil’s coaching staff.

Certainly, the players haven’t paid the price. Many of the key performers on those three defenses are the same. In the secondary, the only change was the addition of CB Dexter McCleon in 2003. Also remember Jerome Woods missed the 2002 season with a broken leg.

Along the defensive line, the only major changes were the departure of DE Duane Clemons and DT Derrick Ransom after the 2002 season and the addition of DE Vonnie Holliday in 2003 and Lional Dalton in 2004.

Linebacker saw the most changes as Marvcus Patton retired after the 2002 season, Mike Maslowski was injured in 2003 and Shawn Barber was added earlier that year as a free agent.

Again, look at those numbers, consider the lack of roster turnover, and is it any wonder that Greg Wesley never thought he’d have to worry about competition for his starting job?

Whether intended or not, the decision before the 2004 season to change only the coordinator of that bad defense sent the message that the players were not the problem. So did signing five of those players to new contracts before or just after they reached free agency.

That’s why Wesley was surprised by the signing of Sammy Knight. On the idea that he lost some of his fire after signing a big money free agent contract last year, Wesley reportedly said:

“That’s ridiculous to me. They talk about last year, but they don’t talk about the four years I put in to get to where I am.”

Greg Wesley is a good, young man and very talented. But that last comment personifies part of the problem with the Chiefs defense. Greg, it doesn’t matter what you did to reach the point where you are. What have you done for the Chiefs defense lately and more importantly, what are you going to do for the Chiefs defense in 2005? That’s what you are paid for; the past only gave you the opportunity to improve the level of your financial compensation.

Changes are coming to the Chiefs defensive roster and that’s going to make some players uncomfortable.

That’s a good thing.

[dirk digler]

Wesley’s surprise shouldn’t come as a shock. From 2002-2004, the Chiefs have had one of the worst NFL defenses in each of those three seasons, yet very few changes have been made to the playing roster. First, here are the gruesome rankings:

Who has paid the price for this poor defensive production? Until now, the only victim was Greg Robinson, who fell on his sword after the 2003 season and left Dick Vermeil’s coaching staff.

Certainly, the players haven’t paid the price. Many of the key performers on those three defenses are the same. In the secondary, the only change was the addition of CB Dexter McCleon in 2003. Also remember Jerome Woods missed the 2002 season with a broken leg.



That part of the article is what alot of us have been saying and maybe they are going to start to hold people accountable. Just maybe.

[King_Chief_Fan]

Greg, it doesn’t matter what you did to reach the point where you are. What have you done for the Chiefs defense lately and more importantly, what are you going to do for the Chiefs defense in 2005? That’s what you are paid for; the past only gave you the opportunity to improve the level of your financial compensation.

Changes are coming to the Chiefs defensive roster and that’s going to make some players uncomfortable.

That’s a good thing.

I hope GW is listening......put up or shut up and ship out.

As for the rest of the d......take note...Except you Mr. Hicks. You get to stay no matter how bad you are

[dirk digler]

Greg, it doesn’t matter what you did to reach the point where you are. What have you done for the Chiefs defense lately and more importantly, what are you going to do for the Chiefs defense in 2005? That’s what you are paid for; the past only gave you the opportunity to improve the level of your financial compensation.

Changes are coming to the Chiefs defensive roster and that’s going to make some players uncomfortable.

That’s a good thing.

I hope GW is listening......put up or shut up and ship out.

As for the rest of the d......take note...Except you Mr. Hicks. You get to stay no matter how bad you are

Yep I really don't know what Hicks has on DV but it must be good.

[Gaz]

Gretz is a moron. He is a mouthpiece shill for the Chiefs organization. I don’t know why you people read his crap.

xoxo~
Gaz
Maintaining the balance.

[penguinz]

Same reason we bother reading yours. :P

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

rep for Gretz.

[Lzen]

Gretz is a moron. He is a mouthpiece shill for the Chiefs organization. I don’t know why you people read his crap.

xoxo~
Gaz
Maintaining the balance.


Ha ha ha, nice. :thumb:



You know, I remember a very good former Chiefs coach used to say "it's not what have you done for me lately. It's what are you going to do for me next?" M.S.

[BigRedChief]

Gretz is a moron. He is a mouthpiece shill for the Chiefs organization. I don’t know why you people read his crap.

xoxo~
Gaz
Maintaining the balance.


Just because waht he says is true sometimes doesn't negate the fact he is bought and paid for as King Carls media boy. Nothing more than a well paid yes man to the Chiefs.

[Gaz]

Just because waht he says is true sometimes doesn't negate the fact he is bought and paid for as King Carls media boy. Nothing more than a well paid yes man to the Chiefs.

Heh.

xoxo~
Gaz
Precient as ever.

[Frankie]

Same reason we bother reading yours. :P

Oooooh.... Sacrilege!

BURN THE HERETIC!

;)

[C-Mac]

Gretz is a moron. He is a mouthpiece shill for the Chiefs organization. I don’t know why you people read his crap.

xoxo~
Gaz
Maintaining the balance.


Maybe someone should set up a poll vote to see if they should just ban him completely from this board.
;)

[Lzen]

Just because waht he says is true sometimes doesn't negate the fact he is bought and paid for as King Carls media boy. Nothing more than a well paid yes man to the Chiefs.

Well, isn't that the point of Gaz's post? When he says good things about the Chiefs organization, he's just a shill for the Chiefs. But when he says negative things, then what? You can't have it both ways. :hmmm:

[C-Mac]

Well, isn't that the point of Gaz's post? When he says good things about the Chiefs organization, he's just a shill for the Chiefs. But when he says negative things, then what? You can't have it both ways. :hmmm:


........dont think so.

[BigRedChief]

Well, isn't that the point of Gaz's post? When he says good things about the Chiefs organization, he's just a shill for the Chiefs. But when he says negative things, then what? You can't have it both ways. :hmmm:

Get with the program here......

He's critizing a player not the front office. He can critize the players in the media and King Carl never takes the heat. This is exactly what they do. He's really a journalist, see. But lets see him critize King Carl before we take that leap of faith.

[siberian khatru]

Well, isn't that the point of Gaz's post? When he says good things about the Chiefs organization, he's just a shill for the Chiefs. But when he says negative things, then what? You can't have it both ways. :hmmm:

Sure you can, which is why this Gretz piece is especially encouraging. If you believe Gretz is a mouthpiece for the Chiefs, then this column is the organization FINALLY kicking some players' butts.

[ck_IN]

I won't weigh in on Gretz' cred but I'll wait and see if DV actually holds his players accountable. He never has in the past, what makes anyone think he wil now?

Remember this is the same coach that had no problem with Tony Banks as a starter.

[|Zach|]

I won't weigh in on Gretz' cred but I'll wait and see if DV actually holds his players accountable. He never has in the past, what makes anyone think he wil now?

Remember this is the same coach that had no problem with Tony Banks as a starter.
I think Woods and Wesley are feeling like they are being head accountable these days...

[dirk digler]

I think Woods and Wesley are feeling like they are being head accountable these days...

Yep and that is a good thing. That is why I like the Sammy Knight signing because it has already pissed Wesley off and got his attention.

[shaneo69]

I think Woods and Wesley are feeling like they are being head accountable these days...


Maybe the jackass who gave them each new contracts last year should be held accountable.

[Baby Lee]

Same reason we bother reading yours. :P
All you need to remember is Gaz is the guy who thinks that Charlie's Angels is the height of art. :p

[|Zach|]

Maybe the jackass who gave them each new contracts last year should be held accountable.
Well he has publically taken responsibility for all of the decisions made personel wise...

-Zach
Trying to talk to Shaneo and keep his Chiefs fan status at the same time.

[dirk digler]

Maybe the jackass who gave them each new contracts last year should be held accountable.

When was the last time Lamar held anyone accountable? I think you are asking for a miracle.

[shaneo69]

He has publically taken responsibility for all of the decisions made personel wise...

Well, if you're satisfied with that, then so am I. :thumb:

[|Zach|]

Well, if you're satisfied with that, then so am I. :thumb:
Who said anything about being satisfied...all I am saying his you think CP is not accountable...and he has pubically said he is accoutable...

Thsi does not have to change your opinion of him or his job...I am just giving you the facts.

I need to double check my keyboard to make sure it is not posting more than I am typing.

[ck_IN]

Really? From reading this it seems like Wesley was taken by complete surprise. I seriously doubt he's in fear of his roster spot, simply his place in the pecking order.

As for Woods, it's quite possible I missed it but where's his comments? Is he thinking that Knight is a threat to Greg but he's fine?

My main point is that it shouldn't have reached this point. If DV was doing his job these two wouldn't have had to have a FA signing to shock them to reality. And the fact that it did makes me wonder just how 'accountable' anyone there really is.

[shaneo69]

Who said anything about being satisfied...all I am saying his you think CP is not accountable...and he has pubically said he is accoutable...

Thsi does not have to change your opinion of him or his job...I am just giving you the facts.

I need to double check my keyboard to make sure it is not posting more than I am typing.


Nevermind. Dirk Digler knew what I was talking about. Didn't think it was that difficult to comprehend.

[King_Chief_Fan]

I think Woods and Wesley are feeling like they are being head accountable these days...

You think?? How do you think that?
Even as the signing of Knight has occured, they continue to be clueless.
Where has Woods or Wesley commented about being held accountable?
You never hear those two morons say that.......at least I haven't.


Waiting for Zach to enlighten me

[|Zach|]

Really? From reading this it seems like Wesley was taken by complete surprise. I seriously doubt he's in fear of his roster spot, simply his place in the pecking order.

As for Woods, it's quite possible I missed it but where's his comments? Is he thinking that Knight is a threat to Greg but he's fine?

My main point is that it shouldn't have reached this point. If DV was doing his job these two wouldn't have had to have a FA signing to shock them to reality. And the fact that it did makes me wonder just how 'accountable' anyone there really is.
Well if you want to keep complaining about the past then more power to you. I will find my flux capacitor and we can find a way to go back.

Woods and Wesley were not getting the job done and a plyer was brought it and then it was made known that nobody's job is secure if that isn't a case of players being held accountable than I dont know what is.

[|Zach|]

You think?? How do you think that?
Even as the signing of Knight has occured, they continue to be clueless.
Where has Woods or Wesley commented about being held accountable?
You never hear those two morons say that.......at least I haven't.


Waiting for Zach to enlighten me
Heh, so the only way they can be held accountable is for them to say

"I am being held accountable" in an interview.

ROFL

Like I said...a top notch player has come in to compete and it has been said that neither of their jobs are secure. There was even a story where it was said that the FO was mulling cutting either of them.

[dirk digler]

Well if you want to keep complaining about the past then more power to you. I will find my flux xapacitor and we can find a way to go back.

Woods and Wesley were not getting the job done and a plyer was brought it and then it was made known that nobody's job is secure if that isn't a case of players being held accountable than I dont know what is.

Zach do you honestly believe anyone on the D were being held accountable the last 2 seasons?

[|Zach|]

Zach do you honestly believe anyone on the D were being held accountable the last 2 seasons?
Do you believe we are talking about these last 2 seasons when I talk about things like Knight coming in and stories about how the FO was talking about cutting both players?

I am referring to this offseason.

[dirk digler]

Do you believe we are talking about these last 2 seasons when I talk about things like Knight coming in and stories about how the FO was talking about cutting both players?

I am referring to this offseason.

I understand but can't you see that no one in the Chiefs organization has been holding these guys accountable for their play. All you have to do is look at Wesley's comments to verify that. Gretz who by all accounts is the mouthpiece even agrees.

[|Zach|]

I understand but can't you see that no one in the Chiefs organization has been holding these guys accountable for their play. All you have to do is look at Wesley's comments to verify that. Gretz who by all accounts is the mouthpiece even agrees with me.
Ok well I guess we at least have it boiled down to..

I see saying someone's job is on the line and there is a possibility of them being cut as being held accountable.

You don't.

No big deal.

[King_Chief_Fan]

Heh, so the only way they can be held accountable is for them to say

"I am being held accountable" in an interview.

ROFL

Like I said...a top notch player has come in to compete and it has been said that neither of their jobs are secure. There was even a story where it was said that the FO was mulling cutting either of them.

you answered my question.........you don't know it to be a fact.

you THINK they THINK they are being held accountable ROFL

Until they are gone, they are not being held accountable.....same as what happend to Robinson. Now, he was held accountable.

[Phobia]

Gretz is on a roll. That's two articles in a row worth reading. Nice work, Bob.

[dirk digler]

Ok well I guess we at least have it boiled down to..

I see saying someone's job is on the line and there is a possibility of them being cut as being held accountable.

You don't.

No big deal.

If they are cut then they are being held accountable I agree with that.

[|Zach|]

you answered my question.........you don't know it to be a fact.

you THINK they THINK they are being held accountable ROFL

Until they are gone, they are not being held accountable.....same as what happend to Robinson. Now, he was held accountable.
So your solution is to fire the whole defense. We need the whole defense to be accountable and according to you that is the only way that can happen.

Hoepfully with you as GM we can field a whole defense through the draft and free agency.

[dirk digler]

you answered my question.........you don't know it to be a fact.

you THINK they THINK they are being held accountable ROFL

Until they are gone, they are not being held accountable.....same as what happend to Robinson. Now, he was held accountable.

No he wasn't. DV was going to retain him until he quit. That is fact as it came from both of their mouths.

[dirk digler]

So your solutioni s to fire the whole defense. We need the whole defense to be accountable and according to you that is the only way that can happen.

Hoepfulyl with you as GM we can field a whole defense through the draft and free agency.

I am good with that. Honestly I have been saying for the longest time this team need 6-7 new starters on D this year. I know it ain't going to happen but our D lacks serious talent and 1-2 new players isn't going to make that much of a difference IMO.

[King_Chief_Fan]

So your solution is to fire the whole defense. We need the whole defense to be accountable and according to you that is the only way that can happen.

Hoepfully with you as GM we can field a whole defense through the draft and free agency.

slackers like those guys would NEVER remain in my employ.

[|Zach|]

I am good with that. Honestly I have been saying for the longest time this team need 6-7 new starters on D this year. I know it ain't going to happen but our D lacks serious talent and 1-2 new players isn't going to make that much of a difference IMO.
Hey while we are at it lets go to the settings and turn all of their skill levels to 100!!

ROFL

[|Zach|]

slackers like those guys would NEVER remain in my employ.
I am sure whatever business you run and an NFL team are good comparisons.

[dirk digler]

slackers like those guys would NEVER remain in my employ.

You know I can only think of 1 or 2 players from last year D that could start on any team in the NFL. I think that says alot.

[dirk digler]

Hey while we are at it lets go to the settings and turn all of their skill levels to 100!!

ROFL

Laugh now but the Jets started 8 new starters on there D last year of course you wouldn't know that so it can be done. No matter what CP says. I guess the Jets got the better Chiefs GM anyway.

[|Zach|]

I don't play Madden sorry.
I don't either...but you get the jist of the statement which is the idea of replacing 7 starters in the NFL with a cap is as realistic as "bumping up skill levels"

Maybe if we had more monopoly money.

[dirk digler]

I don't either...but you get the jist of the statement which is the idea of replacing 7 starters in the NFL with a cap is as realistic as "bumping up skill levels"

Maybe if we had more monopoly money.

I edited my last post so here is what I said..

The Jets started 8 new starters on there D last year of course you wouldn't know that so it can be done. No matter what CP says. I guess the Jets got the better Chiefs GM anyway.

[shaneo69]

I edited my last post so here is what I said..

The Jets started 8 new starters on there D last year of course you wouldn't know that so it can be done. No matter what CP says. I guess the Jets got the better Chiefs GM anyway.

I thought if Carl couldn't do it, it couldn't be done.

BTW, after the Rams horrid 2000 season defensively, Martz replaced 7 defensive starters (and the d-coordinator) and they made it to the Super Bowl in 2001. And amazingly, they managed to stay under the cap.

[|Zach|]

Heh, Ok...8 new starters...

What would your plan be out of available free agents and draftees?

Who would you get to replace our players?

I want to see the Chiefs Planet Brain Trust at work. Pound your keyboards of doom.

[dirk digler]

I thought if Carl couldn't do it, it couldn't be done.

BTW, after the Rams horrid 2000 season defensively, Martz replaced 7 defensive starters (and the d-coordinator) and they made it to the Super Bowl in 2001. And amazingly, they managed to stay under the cap.

Yep. That was the model I wanted the Chiefs to use after the 2003 season. It could have been done but CP wants us to believe it can't.

[dirk digler]

Heh, Ok...8 new starters...

What would you plan be out of available free agents and draftees?

Who would you get to replace our players?

The year the Rams did it they signed IIRC 4 FA's and drafted 3 D starters.

I think it is a little to late now because alot of the players the Chiefs could have got are gone. But Bell and Knight is a good start and if they sign Law or trade for Surtain and draft a starting D player in the first round that makes 4.

Like I said the Chiefs should have done this after the 2003 season.

[dirk digler]

Zach also take a look at the Vikings there are going to have upwards of 6-7 new starters on D next year as well. It can be done.

[jarjar]

It can be done under certain ciscumstances, but what about ours?

Really the biggest screw up had to be the recent re-signing of so many of our defensive free agents. We can't cut those guys because their contracts are too new, it saves us almost nothing.. and cutting the backups isn't going to allow you to bring in starters unless you somehow manage to find a bunch of starters who work for backup money.

So yeah, the big problem is we have a bunch of guys who aren't doing worth a damn, and we can't get rid of them. Just thinking about the situation makes me kind of ill. :/ In hind-sight I look at it as an incredibly dumb move, but at the time I was kind of buying the line that GR was the vast majority of the problem. Following that line of thinking I considered that we wouldn't really know how good the players were until we got a good DC in to evaluate them properly. It turns out, the players are pretty damned bad, and if you follow that thought through to it's conclusion... well, this is the elephant that's been sitting in the living room.. I wonder if GR is really as bad as we all thought he was? *ducks*
Could it be that we were so terribly unlucky as to get a team full of really bad players behind a really bad DC? Just by sheer luck you think somewhere we would get someone decent.

[dirk digler]

It can be done under certain ciscumstances, but what about ours?

Really the biggest screw up had to be the recent re-signing of so many of our defensive free agents. We can't cut those guys because their contracts are too new, it saves us almost nothing.. and cutting the backups isn't going to allow you to bring in starters unless you somehow manage to find a bunch of starters who work for backup money.

So yeah, the big problem is we have a bunch of guys who aren't doing worth a damn, and we can't get rid of them. Just thinking about the situation makes me kind of ill. :/ In hind-sight I look at it as an incredibly dumb move, but at the time I was kind of buying the line that GR was the vast majority of the problem. Following that line of thinking I considered that we wouldn't really know how good the players were until we got a good DC in to evaluate them properly. It turns out, the players are pretty damned bad, and if you follow that thought through to it's conclusion... well, this is the elephant that's been sitting in the living room.. I wonder if GR is really as bad as we all thought he was? *ducks*
Could it be that we were so terribly unlucky as to get a team full of really bad players behind a really bad DC? Just by sheer luck you think somewhere we would get someone decent.


We are a year to late IMO. After the 2003 season we should have gutted the entire D and coaching staff and started over. Like the Rams did in 2001 and like the Jets did this past year.

[CosmicPal]

It can be done under certain ciscumstances, but what about ours?

Really the biggest screw up had to be the recent re-signing of so many of our defensive free agents. We can't cut those guys because their contracts are too new, it saves us almost nothing.. and cutting the backups isn't going to allow you to bring in starters unless you somehow manage to find a bunch of starters who work for backup money.

So yeah, the big problem is we have a bunch of guys who aren't doing worth a damn, and we can't get rid of them. Just thinking about the situation makes me kind of ill. :/ In hind-sight I look at it as an incredibly dumb move, but at the time I was kind of buying the line that GR was the vast majority of the problem. Following that line of thinking I considered that we wouldn't really know how good the players were until we got a good DC in to evaluate them properly. It turns out, the players are pretty damned bad, and if you follow that thought through to it's conclusion... well, this is the elephant that's been sitting in the living room.. I wonder if GR is really as bad as we all thought he was? *ducks*
Could it be that we were so terribly unlucky as to get a team full of really bad players behind a really bad DC? Just by sheer luck you think somewhere we would get someone decent.

I agree the biggest screw-up is the signing of all of our players on the defensive side of the ball, but- I honestly didn't think they're that "bad" I believed they were just a bunch of under-achievers and that the hiriing of Cunningham would ignite the fire in all of them. Obviously, I was terribly wrong. It's rather heartbreaking considering the strength of our offense....and now, we can only hope they will get Surtain and/or Law and get some players on the defensive side of the ball via the draft who will all bring respect back to KC.

[King_Chief_Fan]

I am sure whatever business you run and an NFL team are good comparisons.
Yup, a lot different.
Our customers are not happy with 18 years of empty promises. We are held accountable to deliver what the customers want and when they want it. KC Chiefs continue to mis-lead and all the sheep follow.
Hey, I am one of them I guess since I go to a couple of games a year. But, it is starting to be about the tail gateing and the interaction with all the good KC faithful than it is about watching the Chiefs continue to be average at best. Maybe I will just start paying $20 bucks to sit in the parking lot and party with friends instead of shelling out a couple of hundred dollars for tickets and kicking myself.

[whoman69]

Don't ask for whom the bell tolls. Players on this D have not been held accountable. What's more, the wrong player in this case is being held to a higher standard. While Wesley was not good last year, I can say that is because the guy next to him didn't play at all. Woods took the money and ran. He is the one who should be getting the sack on June 1.
Its pretty clear at this point that Carl is once again not going to address adequately the needs of this defense. As it stands now, Mitchell will be starting somewhere. We have no corners of starting quality to begin the season with and our only two leads are someone who will cost us a high pick and a big contract or a guy who can't even pass a physical at this point that demands an equally big contract. We have nothing in place for our WILL spot. Its to the point where you have to give Carl at best a D for his efforts this offseason.