Peter King says Chiefs offering 4th rounder for Surtain

[Brock]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/peter_king/03/27/mmqb.owners.meetings/index.html

2. Saban loves draft picks: He wants more of them. He is in mourning over the fact the Dolphins don't have their second-round selection this year (they dealt it for A.J. Feeley last year), and I see Saban holding out for a second- or a third-round pick for cornerback Patrick Surtain. Right now, the best offer out there for Surtain is Kansas City's fourth-round pick.

[dirk digler]

If that is true CP is a dumb ****.

[Iowanian]

....and if he gets it done for a 4th........He's a fargin Genius.

[Rain Man]

Beat 'em down, Carl! Beat 'em down!

[dirk digler]

....and if he gets it done for a 4th........He's a fargin Genius.

I would agree.

[Hoover]

The sad thing is if we had a 3rd that we could it would be done. I think we should send them our 2nd for Surtain and a 4th.

[jspchief]

The sad thing is if we had a 3rd that we could it would be done.

I agree. It's too bad we don't have the pick to be able to meet them in the middle, although there's no guarantee that MIA would come down to a 3rd.

I think Surtain is worth the second, but I'd sure like to get it done cheaper. Hopefully we aren't competing with too many other teams.

[siberian khatru]

1. Will anyone meet Miami's asking price?

2. If not, how desperate is Miami to get rid of him?

[Mr. Laz]

The sad thing is if we had a 3rd that we could it would be done.
enter the bad trade for welbourn



btw - Surtains value is being hurt by his (apparently) huge contract demands. If surtain wanted a decent contract he wouldn't be on the trade block and/or he would be going for a 1st rounder ... maybe more.

[bricks]

If that is true CP is a dumb ****.

Ditto. What in the world are these guys thinking. If they expect to acquire Surtain with a 4th rounder, they are better off not even negiotiating. Because that is a joke, and, a slap in the face to Surtain, and the Dolphins organization. Well, in my eyes, I see that way anyway. I don't understand the concept why the Chiefs don't give up the 2nd round pick. they can acquire it back by trading down in the draft. Or even trading up with your lower round picks. We have so many picks this year it's not funny. 3 in the 5th, 2 in the 6th, 2 in the 7th. So, what's the problem CP? We could even use 2 of those picks and a player to get our 2nd round pick back. I could go on and on about what we can do, why even bother wasting my breath. :shake:

[Eleazar]

He's one tough SOB negotiator

[Ghostof]

I could go on and on about what we can do, why even bother wasting my breath. :shake:


Thanks, I for one appreciate you not wasting our time.

[Frankie]

If that is true CP is a dumb ****.

I like it actually. Offer them a 4th and see if they'll agree to a 3rd. Pretty damn good bargaining if you ask me. Let me remind you that this is a club that traded away a 2nd (1st?) for AJ Feeley. They are not the smartest front office in the league. Anyway, I've been on the don't-spend-a-2nd-on-Surtain side. But for a 3rd, I'd have no problem with the trade. Hold on to your guns CP. :thumb:

[Bob Dole]

The sad thing is if we had a 3rd that we could it would be done. I think we should send them our 2nd for Surtain and a 4th.

We've got a third.

Kind of.

[Frankie]

....and if he gets it done for a 4th........He's a fargin Genius.
Even for a 3rd.

[C-Mac]

enter the bad trade for welbourn

btw - Surtains value is being hurt by his (apparently) huge contract demands. If surtain wanted a decent contract he wouldn't be on the trade block and/or he would be going for a 1st rounder ... maybe more.

So you gave up on Welbourn already......huh?

[Iowanian]

we don't have a 3rd to trade this year. Miami doesn't have a 2nd.

It wouldn't bother me if he'd try for a 4 and a 6....or a conditional pic next year, that could be a 2nd if he makes it to the probowl and starts 15-16 games.

[Brock]

I like it actually. Offer them a 4th and see if they'll agree to a 3rd.

It makes no difference if they would agree to a third.

[jspchief]

Our third is not tradeable. This has been mentioned several times, but I thought I'd offer it up for those that appear to have missed it.

Compensatory draft picks are not tradeable.

[Mr. Laz]

So you gave up on Welbourn already......huh?
now, where did i say that?


please ... point it out for me, cause i must of missed it

[Wile_E_Coyote]

Peter King...

[keg in kc]

I've got no problem with the front office playing chicken right now. It's what I'd do under the same circumstances, although I'd probably go a little higher, maybe next year's second. I would not offer this year's, under any circumstances, so long as we're the only suiter. It's a waiting game for now.

[bricks]

Thanks, I for one appreciate you not wasting our time.


Whatta prick

[BigChiefFan]

It's a starting pioint for negotiations, I think some are looking too much into this. IF we don't land Surtain, then I will join in the bashing, but until we've lost out, I can't throw stones in Carl's direction.

[Mr. Laz]

I've got no problem with the front office playing chicken right now. It's what I'd do under the same circumstances, although I'd probably go a little higher, maybe next year's second. I would not offer this year's, under any circumstances, so long as we're the only suiter. It's a waiting game for now.

i'd offer next year's 2nd as well ... that's the equivelant of this year's 3rd

[dirk digler]

It's a starting pioint for negotiations, I think some are looking too much into this. IF we don't land Surtain, then I will join in the bashing, but until we've lost out, I can't throw stones in Carl's direction.

I don't think it is a starting point as this as being going on for over 2 months now. This is Carl being a cheap ass....again.

[Mr. Laz]

I don't think it is a starting point as this as being going on for over 2 months now. This is Carl being a cheap ass....again.
more than likely ... if we go by history it is.


but we can always HOPE that this time is different

[BigChiefFan]

I don't think it is a starting point as this as being going on for over 2 months now. This is Carl being a cheap ass....again.
How is wanting to keep our 2nd round pick, being a cheap ass? If I was Carl, I would do everything in my power to keep that pick as well. If it's takes a 2nd rounder for Surtain so be it, but I have a feeling we get Surtain for a 4th or 5th THIS year and a 3rd next year. If that happens, won't you be even more pleased?

[dirk digler]

more than likely ... if we go by history it is.


but we can always HOPE that this time is different

Yep.

IMO I think the big hangup of this deal will be CP not wanting to pay Surtain a 15 million bonus like he wants.

[Mr. Laz]

How is wanting to keep our 2nd round pick, being a cheap ass? If I was Carl, I would do everything in my power to keep that pick as well. If it's takes a 2nd rounder for Surtain so be it, but I have a feeling we get Surtain for a 4th or 5th THIS year and a 3rd next year. If that happens, won't you be even more pleased?
of course people will be please if it works out.

if we get surtain for less than a 2nd rounder, then most will be jumping for joy.


but, as i said, history tells us that it probably won't work out.


more than likely carl will play tough ... won't know when to give a little and Surtain will end up being traded to another team for a better deal and we'll end up facing a "sign ty law or end up with nothing" situation.

[Pants]

Ditto. What in the world are these guys thinking. If they expect to acquire Surtain with a 4th rounder, they are better off not even negiotiating. Because that is a joke, and, a slap in the face to Surtain, and the Dolphins organization. Well, in my eyes, I see that way anyway. I don't understand the concept why the Chiefs don't give up the 2nd round pick. they can acquire it back by trading down in the draft. Or even trading up with your lower round picks. We have so many picks this year it's not funny. 3 in the 5th, 2 in the 6th, 2 in the 7th. So, what's the problem CP? We could even use 2 of those picks and a player to get our 2nd round pick back. I could go on and on about what we can do, why even bother wasting my breath. :shake:

Yeah, it's a real slap to the face to a guy who's expecting a 17-billion signing bonus... WTF are you talking about? Surtain knows it's all politics, all he gives a shit about is the money he'll be getting.

[dirk digler]

How is wanting to keep our 2nd round pick, being a cheap ass? If I was Carl, I would do everything in my power to keep that pick as well. If it's takes a 2nd rounder for Surtain so be it, but I have a feeling we get Surtain for a 4th or 5th THIS year and a 3rd next year. If that happens, won't you be even more pleased?

Very pleased. I understand starting low and see if you can get him that way but I don't think it is going to happen.

I just don't believe Miami is that stupid now that Saban is running the show.

[bricks]

I'm totally baffled and confused by all of this. the Kansas City Chiefs, will trade a 3rd and a 5th round pick for Welbourne. A guy who was banged up, converted him from guard to right tackle, didn't pan out. But that's ok. they can trade a 2nd round pick for a coach. That's ok. They can't give up a 2nd round pick, for a stud CB? This is one of the reason why were 7-9, 8-8.

[Kris Kringle]

If that is true CP is a dumb ****. I like it. I've been saying to offer a 4th all along. The Dolphins are bluffing. They are going to have to release Surtain with no compensation to get some salary cap release. They are trying to get a draft pick. If we're patient we can get him for a low draft pick or pick him up when he's released.

[dirk digler]

I'm totally baffled and confused by all of this. the Kansas City Chiefs, will trade a 3rd and a 5th round pick for Welbourne. A guy who was banged up, converted him from guard to left tackle, didn't pan out. But that's ok. they can trade a 2nd round pick for a coach. That's ok. They can't give up a 2nd round pick, for a stud CB? This is one of the reason why were 7-9, 8-8.

Yep. My problem with this whole thing is that CP's drafting history of 2nd round picks has been horrid. Why not give up that 2nd round pick who you know is going to be cut 2 yrs from now anyway?

[AirForceChief]

I'm totally baffled and confused by all of this. the Kansas City Chiefs, will trade a 3rd and a 5th round pick for Welbourne. A guy who was banged up, converted him from guard to left tackle, didn't pan out. But that's ok. they can trade a 2nd round pick for a coach. That's ok. They can't give up a 2nd round pick, for a stud CB? This is one of the reason why were 7-9, 8-8.

C'mon, Welbourne isn't a bust (and we didn't try him at left tackle). No bridges have been burned regarding Surtain. NFL raped us for the Coach. Easy, now...all is not lost.

[BigChiefFan]

of course people will be please if it works out.

if we get surtain for less than a 2nd rounder, then most will be jumping for joy.


but, as i said, history tells us that it probably won't work out.


more than likely carl will play tough ... won't know when to give a little and Surtain will end up being traded to another team for a better deal and we'll end up facing a "sign ty law or end up with nothing" situation.IF that is the case, then you know I will be very displeased with the FO, as will many, but until he ****s this up, I can't bag on him, yet. I think we all know how important a stud corner would be to our secondary and I think this is a no-brainer, but until it's officially over, I'll have to play the waiting game like everybody else. I take it as a good sign, that we are in actual negotiations and that we have targeted Surtain as the player we want, we could have signed Herndon. At least they are adressing the problem areas with PRO BOWL PLAYERS to upgrade the positions. I want Surtain yesterday, but waiting a few more weeks compared to 35 years seems doable.

[Mr. Laz]

I like it. I've been saying to offer a 4th all along. The Dolphins are bluffing. They are going to have to release Surtain with no compensation to get some salary cap release. They are trying to get a draft pick. If we're patient we can get him for a low draft pick or pick him up when he's released.
that's all good IF it works out


IF the chiefs end up making the trade for less than a 2nd ... fantastic!!

IF surtain ends up getting cut AND WE THEN SIGN HIM ... superb!!

IF surtain ends up on another team because of the difference
between a 2nd round pick and a 4th round pick ... then carl screwed up!!


all about the results

[whoman69]

With all the picks we have, I don't feel that it would be much of a hassle to give up another 2nd day pick to try to spice it up. If a 4th is the highest that has been offered thusfar for him, I don't see any teams going to the 2nd round pick that the Fins want.

[bricks]

Yeah, it's a real slap to the face to a guy who's expecting a 17-billion signing bonus... WTF are you talking about? Surtain knows it's all politics, all he gives a shit about is the money he'll be getting.

So, so what? It is a slap in a face. Surtain is worth a lot more than 4th round pick. And, he is definately worth the money. The guys worked his tail off, proved it. What else more does he deserve? He deserves the money, don't gimme this crap. Have you seen Surtain play? Arguably, he deserves top dollar, don't say all he cares about is the money, provide me with some reference to ensure that your statement is true. Cause frankly I think it is a pile of sh*t.

[Brock]

So, so what? It is a slap in a face. Surtain is worth a lot more than 4th round pick.

He is worth whatever the market says he is.

[htismaqe]

I just wish they'd get the deal done.

[Mr. Laz]

I think we all know how important a stud corner would be to our secondary

if we all knew that then why in the hell did the FO not no this last year?


bad decisions and bad execution are a constant from or FO ... so i don't know why anyone would give them the benefit of the doubt.


expect the worst, hope for the best has been my motto for awhile now.

[Pants]

So, so what? It is a slap in a face. Surtain is worth a lot more than 4th round pick. And, he is definately worth the money. The guys worked his tail off, proved it. What else more does he deserve? He deserves the money, don't gimme this crap. Have you seen Surtain play? Arguably, he deserves top dollar, don't say all he cares about is the money, provide me with some reference to ensure that your statement is true. Cause frankly I think it is a pile of sh*t.

ROFL

I'm sure Surtain would pick the team who's offering a 2nd round pick and a 5 mil signing bonus over a team that's offering a 4th round pick and a 12 mil signing bonus.

I'm not saying Surtain isn't worth the 2nd, because he is, I'm saying he doesn't give a shit because it's all FO shit and doesn't really affect him. A huge bonus will tell him that his skills are appreciated and that his hard work payed-off, a higher round pick - eh, not so much.

[dirk digler]

IF that is the case, then you know I will be very displeased with the FO, as will many, but until he ****s this up, I can't bag on him, yet. I think we all know how important a stud corner would be to our secondary and I think this is a no-brainer, but until it's officially over, I'll have to play the waiting game like everybody else. I take it as a good sign, that we are in actual negotiations and that we have targeted Surtain as the player we want, we could have signed Herndon. At least they are adressing the problem areas with PRO BOWL PLAYERS to upgrade the positions. I want Surtain yesterday, but waiting a few more weeks compared to 35 years seems doable.

I don't have a problem with any of that. The Chiefs position has been that they were hestitant to trade for Surtain because they didn't want to have a 1 player draft on the first day. Now that they have a 3rd rd pick I wonder if that has changed any?

As I have said before I don't think in the end the 2nd rd pick will be that major of a deal but I can't forsee CP giving him a $15 million dollar bonus.

[htismaqe]

if we all knew that then why in the hell did the FO not no this last year?


bad decisions and bad execution are a constant from or FO ... so i don't know why anyone would give them the benefit of the doubt.


except the worst, hope for the best has been my motto for awhile now.

They didn't do anything last year because Lamar wouldn't shell out the $10-$15M in instant cash it would take to sign a top CB...

[bricks]

He is worth whatever the market says he is.

If that's the case, then don't expect a deal to be done. He'll probably end up being a Dolphin again. All this trade talk has gone nowhere. Coincedentally, we are still here talking about it. Surtain is still a Dolphin, because nobody gave up a 2nd round pick to acquire him, and, weren't willing to pay his contract.

[Brock]

If that's the case, then don't expect a deal to be done.

I don't.

[dirk digler]

They didn't do anything last year because Lamar wouldn't shell out the $10-$15M in instant cash it would take to sign a top CB...

Do you think CP will give Surtain between a $12-15 million dollar signing bonus?

[C-Mac]

now, where did i say that?
please ... point it out for me, cause i must of missed it

You stated "enter the bad trade for welbourn"

I was wrong in assuming that you really meant he was a good player and your glad we got him, but it was just unfortunate the he was a victim of a bad trade.

If your not a politician, you should think about becoming one...... lighten up Francis.

[keg in kc]

but, as i said, history tells us that it probably won't work out.I don't know. In terms of history, the last situation similar to this one that I can think of is Trent Green in 2001 and I've been thinking this one could well play out the same way. Because of the number of DBs already signed this offseason, there may not be another serious suiter. There's no real reason for either Miami or Kansas City to rush the deal, we can both afford to wait. Obviously anything could happen at any time, but I don't think it would be at all surprising to see this go down immediately before the draft.

The only thing that would get me worried is widespread news that another team is making a serious press on Miami.

[Mr. Laz]

They didn't do anything last year because Lamar wouldn't shell out the $10-$15M in instant cash it would take to sign a top CB...
maybe ... i include the owner in my criticism of the FO

IMO

FO = everyone above Denny Thum

personnel dept = Denny thum and everyone below


it's hard to tell which is the bigger problem the personnel dept or the FO ... but since the FO keeps the same personnel people around then they end up being responsible for it when all is said and done.

[bricks]

If the Chiefs are so concerned about not giving up the 2nd round pick, they should just go after Ty Law. And, a lot of us know how we feel about that. Don't we?

[dtrain]

Ditto. What in the world are these guys thinking. If they expect to acquire Surtain with a 4th rounder, they are better off not even negiotiating. Because that is a joke, and, a slap in the face to Surtain, and the Dolphins organization. Well, in my eyes, I see that way anyway. I don't understand the concept why the Chiefs don't give up the 2nd round pick. they can acquire it back by trading down in the draft. Or even trading up with your lower round picks. We have so many picks this year it's not funny. 3 in the 5th, 2 in the 6th, 2 in the 7th. So, what's the problem CP? We could even use 2 of those picks and a player to get our 2nd round pick back. I could go on and on about what we can do, why even bother wasting my breath. :shake:

In order to trade up or down in the draft there has to be a team that is willing to trade and that won't happen until draft day. I say that is when the Surtain deal will be done.

[keg in kc]

Speaking of the market, Duane Starks went to New England for a low 3rd round pick, as I recall.

[htismaqe]

Do you think CP will give Surtain between a $12-15 million dollar signing bonus?

He's given out similarly huge contracts before, so I think it's possible. It just wasn't possible last year. The Chiefs (and many others) have maintained for a long time that high-dollar free agency is an "every other year" proposition.

The only reason I hold out hope of us getting Surtain and Law, however, is that I don't think Peterson is dumb enough to not get one of them. The whole city (and that includes Vermeil and Gunther) would melt down if he didn't. His bottom line is green and he's flirting with losing money if the fanbase continues to stew...

[keg in kc]

If the Chiefs are so concerned about not giving up the 2nd round pick, they should just go after Ty Law. And, a lot of us know how we feel about that. Don't we?I know exactly how I feel about that. I'd be fine with it in July if he clears their battery of medical tests.

[htismaqe]

If the Chiefs are so concerned about not giving up the 2nd round pick, they should just go after Ty Law. And, a lot of us know how we feel about that. Don't we?

It's been widely reported for the better part of two weeks that the biggest sticking point is Surtain's contract demands, not the 2nd-round pick.

[dirk digler]

He's given out similarly huge contracts before, so I think it's possible. It just wasn't possible last year. The Chiefs (and many others) have maintained for a long time that high-dollar free agency is an "every other year" proposition.

The only reason I hold out hope of us getting Surtain and Law, however, is that I don't think Peterson is dumb enough to not get one of them. The whole city (and that includes Vermeil and Gunther) would melt down if he didn't. His bottom line is green and he's flirting with losing money if the fanbase continues to stew...

I don't know, has he gave anyone over $10 million dollars? I don't think he has. He gave Priest 10 and he was the highest one.

I have heard CP on many occassions say he won't sign a FA for more money than Priest, Tony or Trent.

[dirk digler]

I am starting to think our cash cap is going to be $20 million dollars. We gave Bell around $4 million and Knight around $3 so I bet Lamar said no more than $20 million which would leave around $13 to spend.

[htismaqe]

I don't know, has he gave anyone over $10 million dollars? I don't think he has. He gave Priest 10 and he was the highest one.

I have heard CP on many occassions say he won't sign a FA for more money than Priest, Tony or Trent.

The Chiefs gave up a 2nd-round pick to get McGlockton in 1998. He got a 5-year deal worth almost $30M and it included a $7.5M signing bonus.

You have to take into account NFL salary inflation. McGlockton's deal was HUGE in 1998. It's the equivalent of giving Surtain $15M.

[dirk digler]

The Chiefs gave up a 2nd-round pick to get McGlockton in 1998. He got a 5-year deal worth almost $30M and it included a $7.5M signing bonus.

You have to take into account NFL salary inflation. McGlockton's deal was HUGE in 1998. It's the equivalent of giving Surtain $15M.

Thanks.

[Mr. Laz]

You stated "enter the bad trade for welbourn"

I was wrong in assuming that you really meant he was a good player and your glad we got him, but it was just unfortunate the he was a victim of a bad trade.

If your not a politician, you should think about becoming one...... lighten up Francis.
it WAS a bad trade

we traded a 3rd and 5th for a guard, with a bad knee, that we were going to convert to tackle.


now we are talking about trading a 4th for a pro bowl cornerback


now which is the glaringly bad trade?

[HipHopper4Life]

I like it. I've been saying to offer a 4th all along. The Dolphins are bluffing. They are going to have to release Surtain with no compensation to get some salary cap release. They are trying to get a draft pick. If we're patient we can get him for a low draft pick or pick him up when he's released.


Total misconception. Surtain is already factored into their cap, that's not a problem. Miami's difficulty in getting him signed to a long term extention and the development of Will Poole are the primary reasons Surtain is who they're trying to move to recoup the 2nd round pick they traded away.

If they don't get what they want, I think Miami holds onto him another year since they have the option of franchising him and trading him next year. That's also why I think a pick in next years draft won't fly.


The only sense of urgency in our favor is Saban's desire to have a 2nd round pick in this draft. If Miami manages to trade back from their 2nd overall pick, with say Tampa or the Titans both of whom supposedly covet Mike Williams, then we'd lose that leverage as well if we're waiting on a draft day trade.


We have more to lose than Miami if a deal doesn't get done, which is something I hope Carl and Vermeil keep in mind. We jack around and mess up with Surtain and the only option left is hoping that Ty Law is healthy enough to play and that the Postons keel over in anticipation of putting a deal together while having us over a barrell.

[the Talking Can]

um, if the Chiefs were concerned about giving up draft picks for a pro bowl CB then they could have made an effort to sign one of the several young, talented, and unrestricted FA CBs that were available....crying about picks now is just typical Chiefs nonsense....create the situation you are in and then pretend your hands are tied...

anyways, this is- and has always been- about $$$...the Chiefs won't pay the $12 mill bonus that a top CB earns on the market...they still think they can get a CB on the cheap like they did Bell...none of this should surprise anyone

[Mr. Laz]

uhm if the Chiefs were concerned about giving up draft picks for a pro bowl cB then they could have made an effort to sign on of the several young, talented, and unrestricted FA CBs that were available....crying about picks now is just typical Chiefs nonsense....create the situation you are in and then pretend you're hands are tied
ewwww ... what you said!!! :eek:

stevie ray is going to come hunting for you now


don't you know that we didn't bring those young FA cornerbacks in because they didn't want to play for kansas city?

[dirk digler]

anyways, this is- and has always been- about $$$...the Chiefs won't pay the $12 mill bonus that a top CB earns on the market...they still think they can get a CB on the cheap like they did Bell...none of this should surprise anyone

Exactly. :thumb:

[Gaz]

A 4th makes me feel better about the idea. It will still be a HUGE contract and I still doubt that CBs are worth that kind of cash in today’s NFL. But a 4th Vs a 2nd is a bit easier to stomach.

xoxo~
Gaz
Learning to live with it.

[keg in kc]

Gaz
Learning to live with it.Baaaaaa. lambs

C'mon Gaz, fight the "man". Don't give in.

[bricks]

it WAS a bad trade

we traded a 3rd and 5th for a guard, with a bad knee, that we were going to convert to tackle.


now we are talking about trading a 4th for a pro bowl cornerback


now which is the glaringly bad trade?

I see what your saying Laz, I agree with you.

[dirk digler]

A 4th makes me feel better about the idea. It will still be a HUGE contract and I still doubt that CBs are worth that kind of cash in today’s NFL. But a 4th Vs a 2nd is a bit easier to stomach.

xoxo~
Gaz
Learning to live with it.


Do you think that CP will fork out that much cash?

[C-Mac]

it WAS a bad trade
we traded a 3rd and 5th for a guard, with a bad knee, that we were going to convert to tackle.

now we are talking about trading a 4th for a pro bowl cornerback

now which is the glaringly bad trade?

Well since one is fact and the other fantasy, I will reserve my comment till it applies.

[Gaz]

...C'mon Gaz, fight the "man". Don't give in.

Screw the NFL, their PI rules and the striped goons that enforce it.

Champ Bailey was a fluke.

Lead me off the cliff, sir. I am ready to rock and roll.

xoxo~
Gaz
Wooly lemming.

[Mr. Laz]

Do you think that CP will fork out that much cash?
THIS is the 14 million dollar question


IMO if we don't make the trade for surtain it will just be an excuse because we didn't want to do the new contract.

[bricks]

Do you think that CP will fork out that much cash?

Nope. I don't think they will. My gut feeling says, they'll offer him close to what he wants. Let's say he wants 15 million dollar signing bonus, the Chiefs will offer 13.5 million. Then, some unname team will come out of nowhere, and place a higher bid, draft pick. And, Surtain will go somewhere else. I hope I'm soooo wrong.

[Gaz]

Do you think that CP will fork out that much cash?

I do not want Surtain and his enormous contract.

However, I believe that we will end with Surtain very close to draft day. The contract will have to be structured to delay the major pain until down the road.

But we will be rebuilding by then anyway, so the incremental pain caused by Surtain’s contract will seem smaller by comparison.

xoxo~
Gaz
Pretty confidant that Surtain is going to happen.

[bringbackmarty]

carl is really floatin in that cold. Surtain or law = chiefs deep in playoffs.

[htismaqe]

ewwww ... what you said!!! :eek:

stevie ray is going to come hunting for you now


don't you know that we didn't bring those young FA cornerbacks in because they didn't want to play for kansas city?

We didn't bring in Lucas because he signed with Carolina before anybody else could meet with him. That happens.

I'm guessing we didn't bring in Smoot because Gunther doesn't like his tangibles, particularly his size. We resolved ourselves to bringing him in after Rolle signed with Baltimore, only to see him get snatched up by Minnesota prior to coming here. That's inexcusable, IMO.

[Mr. Laz]

Well since one is fact and the other fantasy, I will reserve my comment till it applies.
way to avoid the issue :clap: :clap:


if you can't see that trading a 3rd and 5th for a guard, with a gimpy knee, was a bad trade then your just in denial.

factor in the fact that we weren't going to even put him at guard and it makes it even worse.


hopefully Welbourn improves and it works out ... but still doesn't change the fact the philly bent carl over the trade desk and hammered him.

[dirk digler]

I don't think they will either because CP is to cheap.

Laz, IMO you're right on. The contract will be the excuse.

[keg in kc]

Gaz
Pretty confidant that Surtain is going to happen.And this my friends, defines ChiefsPlanet: You either believe something won't happen because you want it to or you believe that it will because you don't. ROFL

God we're tortured souls. Someone shoot us already.

[BigChiefFan]

um, if the Chiefs were concerned about giving up draft picks for a pro bowl CB then they could have made an effort to sign one of the several young, talented, and unrestricted FA CBs that were available....crying about picks now is just typical Chiefs nonsense....create the situation you are in and then pretend your hands are tied...

anyways, this is- and has always been- about $$$...the Chiefs won't pay the $12 mill bonus that a top CB earns on the market...they still think they can get a CB on the cheap like they did Bell...none of this should surprise anyone
This is exactly right. The Chiefs backed themselves into this corner, so we really don't have a choice unless we want to rely on Bartee or McCleon another year. I'm all for getting the best deal, but it's not like there weren't real FREE AGENTS out there to sign. Surtain is the ONLY CHOICE right now if we want to IMPROVE BY LEAPS and BOUNDS, so send the pick, Carl. I hate giving up a 2nd rounder, but Surtain is CERTAINLY WORTH IT.

[Mr. Laz]

We didn't bring in Lucas because he signed with Carolina before anybody else could meet with him. That happens.

I'm guessing we didn't bring in Smoot because Gunther doesn't like his tangibles, particularly his size. We resolved ourselves to bringing him in after Rolle signed with Baltimore, only to see him get snatched up by Minnesota prior to coming here. That's inexcusable, IMO.


Kevin Thomas RFA Bills
Earthwind Moreland RFA Patriots
Terrell Buckley UFA Jets
Jimmy Wyrick UFA Dolphins
Calvin Carlyle ERFA Ravens
Zach Norton ERFA Ravens
Gary Baxter UFA Ravens
Dale Carter UFA Ravens
Deion Sanders UFA Ravens
Raymond Walls UFA Ravens
Rashad Bauman RFA Bengals
Reggie Myles RFA Bengals
Christian Morton ERFA Browns
Anthony Henry UFA Browns
Lewis Sanders UFA Browns
Vontez Duff ERFA Steelers
Willie Williams UFA Steelers
Demarcus Faggins RFA Texans
Jason Bell UFA Texans
Jason Simmons UFA Texans
Kenny Wright UFA Texans
Joseph Jefferson RFA Colts
Donald Strickland RFA Colts
Nick Harper UFA Colts
Kiwaukee Thomas UFA Jaguars
Charles Woodson UFA Raiders
Todd McMillon UFA Bears
Andre Goodman RFA Lions
Chris Cash RFA Lions
Danion Sidney UFA Lions
Jason Horton UFA Packers
Rhett Nelson RFA Vikings
Derek Ross RFA Vikings
Brian Williams RFA Vikings
Dwight Anderson ERFA Rams
Renaldo Hill UFA Cardinals
Michael Stone UFA Cardinals
Robert Tate UFA Cardinals
Kris Richard RFA Seahawks
Ken Lucas UFA Seahawks
Jimmy Williams RFA 49ers
Aaron Beasley UFA Falcons
Kevin Mathis UFA Falcons
Allen Rossum UFA Falcons
William Hampton UFA Panthers
Dante Wesley UFA Panthers
Jason Craft UFA Saints
Ronyell Whitaker ERFA Buccaneers
Corey Ivy UFA Buccaneers
Lance Frazier ERFA Cowboys
Lenny Williams ERFA Cowboys
Pete Hunter RFA Cowboys
Tyrone Williams UFA Cowboys
Frank Walker ERFA Giants
Roderick Hood ERFA Eagles
Fred Smoot RFA Redskins

[dirk digler]

I do not want Surtain and his enormous contract.

However, I believe that we will end with Surtain very close to draft day. The contract will have to be structured to delay the major pain until down the road.

But we will be rebuilding by then anyway, so the incremental pain caused by Surtain’s contract will seem smaller by comparison.

xoxo~
Gaz
Pretty confidant that Surtain is going to happen.


Well who do you want then? Law is going to cost as much or more.

[bricks]

hopefully Welbourn improves and it works out ... but still doesn't change the fact the philly bent carl over the trade desk and hammered him.

That, is a fact :clap:

[Gaz]

Well who do you want then? Law is going to cost as much or more.

I want [2] of the following:

Dyson, Edwards, Hill

Brace youselves for the stampede of the ususal suspects howling that Surtain and only Surtain can save the Chiefs.

xoxo~
Gaz
Not gonna get it, though.

[dirk digler]

I want [2] of the following:

Dyson, Edwards, Hill

xoxo~
Gaz
Not gonna get it, though.


Cheap bastard. :p

[Gaz]

Cheap bastard...

I have a birth certificate demonstrating that comment to be incorrect.

xoxo~
Gaz
Busted for the “cheap” bit, though.

[dirk digler]

I have a birth certificate demonstrating that comment to be incorrect.

xoxo~
Gaz
Busted for the “cheap” bit, though.


ROFL

[BigChiefFan]

I want [2] of the following:

Dyson, Edwards, Hill

xoxo~
Gaz
Not gonna get it, though.

I still can't understand why you would prefer a player that isn't near as good as Surtain and will cost a pretty penny as well.


Firm believer in fixing the problem the RIGHT way, the first time.

[Gravedigger]

BAD!!! BAD CARL!!! That's a no no!!!! I mean jeebus that's a slap in the face to the dolphins... hey how bout a second draft pick for surtain? Carl says no no no I got one better how bout a fourth eh? :banghead: :shake:

[Gaz]

Right on cue.

Good man.

xoxo~
Gaz
Precient as ever.

[The Bad Guy]

I wonder if the Dolphins have any tweeners they want to trade?

Carl Peterson surely would give up a 2nd or 3rd for them.

[keg in kc]

[font=Garamond][size=4]
I want [2] of the following:

Dyson, Edwards, Hill

Brace youselves for the stampede of the ususal suspects howling that Surtain and only Surtain can save the Chiefs.

xoxo~
Gaz
I ain't a usual suspect, I'd say, but those guys won't do anything but make us reminiscent for the good ol' days.

You know, back when Ray Crockett started.

[nmt1]

I wonder if the Dolphins have any tweeners they want to trade?

Carl Peterson surely would give up a 2nd or 3rd for them.

Why would you care? You're not following them as closely this year.

[Hoover]

We've got a third.

Kind of.
but we can't trade it.

[Chiefnj]

If Peterson can agree with Surtain on a contract, I don't for a second believe that the draft pick will preclude a deal from being finalized.

[Hoover]

now, where did i say that?


please ... point it out for me, cause i must of missed it
c'mon, you were all over me about that in another thread, I'd look it up, but I don't have the time.

[bricks]

I want [2] of the following:

Dyson, Edwards, Hill

I cannot understand. It seems like you have this fascination for Edwards, and Dyson. Hill is ok. Edwards, and Dyson are awful. Believe me, you wouldn't want them on your team. If the Chiefs get either one of them, I be very disappointed. And, wouldn't look forward to watching football. edwards, and Dyson are mere, very small, minimal upgrades over Bartee and McCleon. If not, they are probably the same.

[htismaqe]

Kevin Thomas RFA Bills
Earthwind Moreland RFA Patriots
Terrell Buckley UFA Jets
Jimmy Wyrick UFA Dolphins
Calvin Carlyle ERFA Ravens
Zach Norton ERFA Ravens
Gary Baxter UFA Ravens
Dale Carter UFA Ravens
Deion Sanders UFA Ravens
Raymond Walls UFA Ravens
Rashad Bauman RFA Bengals
Reggie Myles RFA Bengals
Christian Morton ERFA Browns
Anthony Henry UFA Browns
Lewis Sanders UFA Browns
Vontez Duff ERFA Steelers
Willie Williams UFA Steelers
Demarcus Faggins RFA Texans
Jason Bell UFA Texans
Jason Simmons UFA Texans
Kenny Wright UFA Texans
Joseph Jefferson RFA Colts
Donald Strickland RFA Colts
Nick Harper UFA Colts
Kiwaukee Thomas UFA Jaguars
Charles Woodson UFA Raiders
Todd McMillon UFA Bears
Andre Goodman RFA Lions
Chris Cash RFA Lions
Danion Sidney UFA Lions
Jason Horton UFA Packers
Rhett Nelson RFA Vikings
Derek Ross RFA Vikings
Brian Williams RFA Vikings
Dwight Anderson ERFA Rams
Renaldo Hill UFA Cardinals
Michael Stone UFA Cardinals
Robert Tate UFA Cardinals
Kris Richard RFA Seahawks
Ken Lucas UFA Seahawks
Jimmy Williams RFA 49ers
Aaron Beasley UFA Falcons
Kevin Mathis UFA Falcons
Allen Rossum UFA Falcons
William Hampton UFA Panthers
Dante Wesley UFA Panthers
Jason Craft UFA Saints
Ronyell Whitaker ERFA Buccaneers
Corey Ivy UFA Buccaneers
Lance Frazier ERFA Cowboys
Lenny Williams ERFA Cowboys
Pete Hunter RFA Cowboys
Tyrone Williams UFA Cowboys
Frank Walker ERFA Giants
Roderick Hood ERFA Eagles
Fred Smoot RFA Redskins

Come on, Laz, give me a break.

You and I both know that, had the Chiefs brought in NINETY PERCENT of that list, the membership here would have been screaming about how cheap the front office is not going after a REAL CB.

[htismaqe]

I still can't understand why you would prefer a player that isn't near as good as Surtain and will cost a pretty penny as well.


Firm believer in fixing the problem the RIGHT way, the first time.

Gaz is operating from the (delusional) stance that, because Dyson is half as good, Dyson will cost half as much.

[bricks]

I wonder if the Dolphins have any tweeners they want to trade?

Carl Peterson surely would give up a 2nd or 3rd for them.

ROFL

[Frankie]

It makes no difference if they would agree to a third.

I realized that AFTER my post. But a combination of a few later RDCs might be what CP is after (to eventually offer). A 4th and a 5th maybe? :shrug:

[Gaz]

bricks-

Your assurances have no value in this discussion. Believe me, I trust my judgment more than I trust yours. I assume the reverse is true. That is why we hold our opinions in the first place, ennit?

I believe the NFL will continue to neuter Cornerbacks as more passes are completed and Manning breaks more records. Completions are exciting. That is what the NFL wants. They will continue to tinker until they get what they want. For that reason, I believe that Cornerbacks are overvalued by the general public. I believe that Surtain’s performance on the field will not match his impact on the cap.

I think they are all upgrades over McCleon, Bartee or Battle. That is what I want. Upgrades in the Secondary and MAJOR upgrades at MLB [done] and OLB [not done]. Surtain will cost me a MAJOR upgrade at OLB. That is a Bad Thing.

But, as I have conceded before, the Surtain crew is going to get what they want. If I am wrong, then it will have been a great move and I will be as happy as any other Red & Gold fan. If I am right, then Surtain will join Bailey as a costly mistake by an AFC West team.

xoxo~
Gaz
Will never find out if his plan would have worked.

[Mr. Laz]

Come on, Laz, give me a break.

You and I both know that, had the Chiefs brought in NINETY PERCENT of that list, the membership here would have been screaming about how cheap the front office is not going after a REAL CB.
but as we are constantly told ... what the members here think doesn't matter one bit.

bottomline is that there was one of the largest cornerback FA ones that i can remember and so far we got nothing.

i know, i know

ken lucas didn't give us a chance ... that damnable media ruined our chance to get samari rolle ... smoot to short .... ed baxter wanted too much money....law is injured... the rest of the FA cornerbacks JUST DIDN'T WANT TO PLAY in kansas city.

oh the humanity!!! despite our heroic attempt to get a new cornerback the football gods have thwarted us at every turn. we are dooooooooooooooooooooooomed ... the NFL is ganging up on us, determined to make sure we fail.




yep ... blacklisted by the football gods sounds alot more believable than an inept front office.


carry on...

[Frankie]

now, where did i say that?


please ... point it out for me, cause i must of missed it

Calm down Laz.... Judging by your avatar stress is not good for you. ;)

[Frankie]

i'd offer next year's 2nd as well ... that's the equivelant of this year's 3rd

Only for all of us to piss and moan same time next year about NOT having it. :)

[Red Dawg]

Miami will not give him up for a fourth, not even on draft day.

[Gaz]

Miami will not give him up for a fourth, not even on draft day.

Stop trying to cheer me up.

xoxo~
Gaz
Does not need any false hope.

[htismaqe]

but as we are constantly told ... what the members here think doesn't matter one bit.

bottomline is that there was one of the largest cornerback FA ones that i can remember and so far we got nothing.

i know, i know

ken lucas didn't give us a chance ... that damnable media ruined our chance to get samari rolle ... smoot to short .... ed baxter wanted too much money....law is injured... the rest of the FA cornerbacks JUST DIDN'T WANT TO PLAY in kansas city.

oh the humanity!!! despite our heroic attempt to get a new cornerback the football gods have thwarted us at every turn. we are dooooooooooooooooooooooomed ... the NFL is ganging up on us, determined to make sure we fail.




yep ... blacklisted by the football gods sounds alot more believable than an inept front office.


carry on...

Ken Lucas didn't give us a chance. We blew it on Baxter and Rolle. We likely blew it on Smoot as well, but at some point we have to trust the judgement of our DC. Law IS injured.

The rest of those guys wouldn't necessarily have been upgrades.

I still wish we would have signed Kelly Herndon.

[BigChiefFan]

I think we can get Surtain for multiple 2nd day picks.

[bricks]

bricks-

Your assurances have no value in this discussion. Believe me, I trust my judgment more than I trust yours. I assume the reverse is true. That is why we hold our opinions in the first place, ennit?

maybe according to you yes, and that's fine. On the other hand, I appreciate you being civil about it. you have your opinion, and I have mine. Maybe we should just respect, appreciate each other opinions then?

*I still don't like Edwards, and Dyson but I respect your opinion

[BigChiefFan]

Stop trying to cheer me up.

xoxo~
Gaz
Does not need any false hope.

I think you might be the ONLY Kansas City fan in the world that prefers crappier players to Pro Bowl players. Have you even watched the defense the past 4 years? And who is is this magical FA OLBer than you covet so much, to pass on Surtain for? BTW, Sharper cost a pick.


Trying to get through to Gaz.

[Gaz]

bricks-

I think that is a fine approach.

*I still do not want to sink a lot of cap cash into Surtain.

xoxo~
Gaz
Trying to warm up to the Surtain inevitablility.

[Mr. Laz]

Ken Lucas didn't give us a chance. We blew it on Baxter and Rolle. We likely blew it on Smoot as well, but at some point we have to trust the judgement of our DC. Law IS injured.

The rest of those guys wouldn't necessarily have been upgrades.

I still wish we would have signed Kelly Herndon.
how do you know that we even tried for lucas ... or you just giving the FO the benefit of the doubt?


my point is .... enough with the excuses, winning organizations fine a way to get the job done.


12 years since our last playoff win tells us that we aren't getting the job done ... period.


blaming the media or the fans or fate is just another lame excuse.

[Gaz]

BigChiefFan-

I like Simmons.

Gimme Simmons [OLB] and Hill [CB] and a draft CB at #15 and I would be content.

xoxo~
Gaz
Wishing in his free hand, because the other is full.

[keg in kc]

I think they are all upgrades over McCleon, Bartee or Battle. That is what I want. Upgrades in the Secondary and MAJOR upgrades at MLB [done] and OLB [not done]. Surtain will cost me a MAJOR upgrade at OLB. That is a Bad Thing.No major OLB upgrade on the market this offseason is what's costing you a major upgrade at OLB. Although I'd have liked to give Ian Gold a try.

[Frankie]

Yep. My problem with this whole thing is that CP's drafting history of 2nd round picks has been horrid. Why not give up that 2nd round pick who you know is going to be cut 2 yrs from now anyway?

I don't subscribe to the prevalent 2nd-rd failure theory. Sure there's been a lot of 2nd round miss's in CP's draft history. But what exactly happens there? Do you think CP goes to sleep or the automatic pilot mode? :shrug: It's been strange by Idon't think it's been anything more than coincidents. During the Marty era Carl drafted, what, 4 QBs in the 2nd who were all drafted in the round predicted for them by all experts. Who's to say at least one wouldn't have panned out had a stubborn Marty not nailed their butts to the bench even in runaway games? Some draftee failures got to be on the coaches who fail to develop them.

[BigChiefFan]

BigChiefFan-

I like Simmons.

Gimme Simmons [OLB] and Hill [CB] and a draft CB at #15 and I would be content.

xoxo~
Gaz
Wishing in his free hand, because the other is full.

Gaz, you always keep your wits about you. I don't agree, that is the best way to improve the team, but I respect your opinion. Simmons is an accident waiting to happen. I hope you like our 2nd stringer just as much because we will probably be seeing alot of him because Simmons can't stay healthy.

[keg in kc]

Simmons is an accident waiting to happen. I hope you like our 2nd stringer just as much because we will probably be seeing alot of him because Simmons can't stay healthy.Well, between them, maybe we can get 13 or 14 games out of Simmons and Barber.

[Gaz]

Much like Bell, Simmons’ injury history is worrisome. However, I have faith in the Chiefs medical staff. They were right about Green, Holmes and Roaf. If they okayed Simmons, I would be happy to have him in place of Beisel/Caver.

I fear the gaping hole at OLB more than I fear the gaping hole at CB.

As always, YMMV.

xoxo~
Gaz
Has less confidence in Beisel than he does in Sapp.

[Mr. Laz]

No major OLB upgrade on the market this offseason is what's costing you a major upgrade at OLB. Although I'd have liked to give Ian Gold a try.
agreed... imo i still think are coaching staff and front think that we have enough talent at OLB and didn't move because of that.

they still think that they can find good enough talent for OLB from the group of guys we got now. (barber,fox,fujita,mitchell???, caver)

[Gaz]

Has there been any hard data on Barber? Last I heard, he was not going to be available until well into the season. Is that correct?

Of course, I also heard that he would be on PUP when the season opens.

Anyone know for sure?

xoxo~
Gaz
Would feel better with Barber in place.

[keg in kc]

Gaz
Has less confidence in Beisel than he does in Sapp.That's like saying you have more confidence in suicide by slicing your left wrist than you do in slicing your right.

[htismaqe]

how do you know that we even tried for lucas ... or you just giving the FO the benefit of the doubt?


my point is .... enough with the excuses, winning organizations fine a way to get the job done.


12 years since our last playoff win tells us that we aren't getting the job done ... period.


blaming the media or the fans or fate is just another lame excuse.

I'm not making excuses.

Lucas went to Carolina the day free agency started and signed with them. NOBODY other than Carolina got a chance at him.

[keg in kc]

I have heard zilch about Barber.

[Gaz]

That's like saying you have more confidence in suicide by slicing your left wrist than you do in slicing your right.

My point exactly.

Sapp showed me some good stuff last season [served up with a whole lot of bad stuff, too], but I would not want to go into battle with him as my starter. Ditto Beisel.

xoxo~
Gaz
Appreciates the assist.

[Mr. Laz]

I'm not making excuses.

Lucas went to Carolina the day free agency started and signed with them. NOBODY other than Carolina got a chance at him.

we supposedly called ed hartwell at midnight the moment free agency started.

did we do the same for lucas?

[Frankie]

So, so what? It is a slap in a face. Surtain is worth a lot more than 4th round pick....

Let's see. You go to a garage sale. The guy is selling a great salad bowl for $10. He doesn't want it and he knows he is limited to the few ours of his sale to sell this item. It happens to be perfect match for your plates. You know the store price for this item is $20. The USED item is worth only $5 to you and you sense the guy might take that. Do you INSIST on paying $10? :shrug:

[htismaqe]

agreed... imo i still think are coaching staff and front think that we have enough talent at OLB and didn't move because of that.

they still think that they can find good enough talent for OLB from the group of guys we got now. (barber,fox,fujita,mitchell???, caver)

I wish we had more than a Lloyd Christmas chance at Derrick Johnson. Unfortunately, there isn't a sure-fire upgrade available at OLB in free agency. Maybe Ian Gold, would have like to have him.

The guys that would have been really good (Thornton, Witherspoon) were all RFA's.

[Gaz]

we supposedly called ed hartwell at midnight the moment free agency started.

did we do the same for lucas?

Well, crap. THAT’s why they did not sign with the Chiefs.

We woke them up.

xoxo~
Gaz
Cursing the Chiefs staff and their lack of clocks.

[htismaqe]

we supposedly called ed hartwell at midnight the moment free agency started.

did we do the same for lucas?

I don't know, and even if I did, it's not relevant.

Lucas signed with Carolina without visiting anywhere else. He didn't allow any team to put themselves in play.

[KCTitus]

Well, crap. THAT’s why they did not sign with the Chiefs.

We woke them up.

xoxo~
Gaz
Cursing the Chiefs staff and their lack of clocks.


LOL...

[KCTitus]

I wish we had more than a Lloyd Christmas chance at Derrick Johnson. Unfortunately, there isn't a sure-fire upgrade available at OLB in free agency. Maybe Ian Gold, would have like to have him.

The guys that would have been really good (Thornton, Witherspoon) were all RFA's.

I believe Gold signed with Denver...

[Mr. Laz]

I don't know, and even if I did, it's not relevant.

Lucas signed with Carolina without visiting anywhere else. He didn't allow any team to put themselves in play.
oh but it could be relevant ...

if Lucas knew that the chiefs were seriously interested, maybe he leaves Carolina and sees what the chiefs have to offer.


you chastise people all the time for making "negative" assumptions ... but you just made a "positive" one without even being aware of it.

[keg in kc]

Gaz, you know I agree with your contention that the front seven is important; the best pass defense is knocking a QB on his ass before he has time to survey the field. But I also believe in the value of talent, and Surtain is far more talented than anyone available to us at OLB, much less any other position on the defense. And he plays what is in all probability the weakest position on the roster, because I believe the talent we have at CB is significantly worse than what we have at OLB. Beyond that, Surtain is a stud, and I think he could impact the play of everyone else on the defense. I don't see a linebacker out there that I can say the same thing about. I also don't think adding a marginal CB castoff does anything for us. We need a starter; we have enough guys maybe talented enough to play the nickel already, I think.

[bricks]

Let's see. You go to a garage sale. The guy is selling a great salad bowl for $10. He doesn't want it and he knows he is limited to the few ours of his sale to sell this item. It happens to be perfect match for your plates. You know the store price for this item is $20. The USED item is worth only $5 to you and you sense the guy might take that. Do you INSIST on paying $10? :shrug:

And what if the guy says no? " this is proven to be a good salad bowl, and, it will last a long time". The guy feels you are low-balling him. Next thing you know, another guy walks in and says I'll pay $10 for that salad bowl. that's as quickly, and, easily we can lose out on Surtain. why do the Chiefs have to play hardball with a proven product? I wish they can just give the Dolphins our 2nd round pick.

* Sometimes you have to pay for good quality. Surtain is good quality. A 2nd round pick is a bargain for super quality I should say. the Chiefs should be fortunate they don't even have to give up a 1st, Surtain is worth a 1st. They are fortunate and should appreciate the asking price, rather than being cheap sons of a b*tches.

[whoman69]

And what if the guy says no? " this is proven to be a good salad bowl, and, it will last a long time". The guy feels you are low-balling him. Next thing you know, another guy walks in and says I'll pay $10 for that salad bowl. that's as quickly, and, easily we can lose out on Surtain. why do the Chiefs have to play hardball with a proven product? I wish they can just give the Dolphins our 2nd round pick.
The strength of the pick we give up has not been the sticking point, as has been stated. The big sticking point is what Surtain wants to come to us. Why should we offer a 2nd when our offer of a 4th is the best they have received? Add a 6th, don't go overboard.

[Frankie]

I like Simmons.

Gimme Simmons [OLB] and Hill [CB] and a draft CB at #15 and I would be content.


EXACFREAKINGLY! :clap:

[The Bad Guy]

Why would you care? You're not following them as closely this year.

Is this all you have? Seriously?

But what should I expect from someone who believes we are only entitled to 8 games a year. :rolleyes:

Why do you care? You're not expecting anything but 8 games. Lamar should suit up his MLS team and put them in Chiefs uniforms. They could give you 8 games as well.

Your standards suck.

[bricks]

The strength of the pick we give up has not been the sticking point, as has been stated. The big sticking point is what Surtain wants to come to us. Why should we offer a 2nd when our offer of a 4th is the best they have received? Add a 6th, don't go overboard.

In other words, are you saying it's the contract? If so, that part I agree. 4th and 6th for Surtain? I don't think the Dolphins will do it. they want a 2nd. It is not only about Patrick Surtain, but, also whats best for the Miami Dolphins. A 4th and a 6th is not good value in return for proven quality. And not the best for the Miami Dolphins organization.

[Warrior5]

No argument from me on Simmons (had him #3 on my personal LB chart below Pierce and Witherspoon), but please explain your preference of Hill over Dyson.

[Frankie]

And what if the guy says no? " this is proven to be a good salad bowl, and, it will last a long time". The guy feels you are low-balling him. Next thing you know, another guy walks in and says I'll pay $10 for that salad bowl. that's as quickly, and, easily we can lose out on Surtain. why do the Chiefs have to play hardball with a proven product? I wish they can just give the Dolphins our 2nd round pick.
Shit happens. You just should not fall in love with the item. At worse, you could buy a new one in the store. But if you sense that the guy won't keep the item you should try for what it's worth to you. The risk that you described is always there. If you are good, you'd play the odds if you assess the risk to be fairly low.

[Gaz]

keg in kc-

If I thought that we were a stud CB away from a great Defense, I would cough up for the stud CB in a heartbeat. However, we are not a stud CB away from a great Defense. And I am not even factoring the NFL’s campaign against CBs into that equation.

If Barber were healthy, I might be convinced that Barber, Bell & Fujita is enough of an upgrade over Caver, Mitchell & Fujita. Once again, that is not the case.

IMO, Surtain is the equivalent of installing a bionic arm on a patient bleeding out from a sucking chest wound.

xoxo~
Gaz
Planet paramedic.

[Frankie]

In other words, are you saying it's the contract? If so, that part I agree. 4th and 6th for Surtain? I don't think the Dolphins will do it. they want a 2nd. It is not only about Patrick Surtain, but, also whats best for the Miami Dolphins. A 4th and a 6th is not good value in return for proven quality. And not the best for the Miami Dolphins organization.
AJ Feeley for a 2nd was "best for the Miami Dolphins?" Sounds to me like they are not very astute. A factor that I'm sure hasn't escaped CP's mind.

[htismaqe]

I believe Gold signed with Denver...

Yeah, I tried to use the past tense, but missed a "D".

[Frankie]

IMO, Surtain is the equivalent of installing a bionic arm on a patient bleeding out from a sucking chest wound.
ROFL :clap:

[dirk digler]

I don't subscribe to the prevalent 2nd-rd failure theory. Sure there's been a lot of 2nd round miss's in CP's draft history. But what exactly happens there? Do you think CP goes to sleep or the automatic pilot mode? :shrug: It's been strange by Idon't think it's been anything more than coincidents. During the Marty era Carl drafted, what, 4 QBs in the 2nd who were all drafted in the round predicted for them by all experts. Who's to say at least one wouldn't have panned out had a stubborn Marty not nailed their butts to the bench even in runaway games? Some draftee failures got to be on the coaches who fail to develop them.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[htismaqe]

oh but it could be relevant ...

if Lucas knew that the chiefs were seriously interested, maybe he leaves Carolina and sees what the chiefs have to offer.


you chastise people all the time for making "negative" assumptions ... but you just made a "positive" one without even being aware of it.

I'm not making any assumptions.

Lucas did not visit with ANY teams. So it's not particularly relevant to speculate on who did or did not call him. He went to Carolina and immediately signed a contract. That's a fact.

If you want to bitch about Hartwell, who came here and then went 3 weeks without signing before going somewhere else, go ahead. The Chiefs botched that.

If you want to bitch about Smoot, who sat out there for weeks with no interest only to be snatched up right before we brought him in, go ahead. Again we botched that.

But we did not in any way botch the Lucas deal. IMO, he was never available.

[dirk digler]

keg in kc-

If I thought that we were a stud CB away from a great Defense, I would cough up for the stud CB in a heartbeat. However, we are not a stud CB away from a great Defense. And I am not even factoring the NFL’s campaign against CBs into that equation.

If Barber were healthy, I might be convinced that Barber, Bell & Fujita is enough of an upgrade over Caver, Mitchell & Fujita. Once again, that is not the case.

IMO, Surtain is the equivalent of installing a bionic arm on a patient bleeding out from a sucking chest wound.

xoxo~
Gaz
Planet paramedic.


I have to agree. We need more than 1 player but with that being said we need Surtain or Law. That still leaves us with about 3-4 players to go.

[htismaqe]

keg in kc-

If I thought that we were a stud CB away from a great Defense, I would cough up for the stud CB in a heartbeat. However, we are not a stud CB away from a great Defense. And I am not even factoring the NFL’s campaign against CBs into that equation.

If Barber were healthy, I might be convinced that Barber, Bell & Fujita is enough of an upgrade over Caver, Mitchell & Fujita. Once again, that is not the case.

IMO, Surtain is the equivalent of installing a bionic arm on a patient bleeding out from a sucking chest wound.

xoxo~
Gaz
Planet paramedic.


A stud CB would go MUCH further in fixing this defense than another mediocre OLB.

IMO, adding Dyson and a mediocre OLB instead of Surtain is the equivalent of putting a new Armani suit on a patient bleeding out from a sucking chest wound.

You're basically just making sure it looks good in a casket.

[mlyonsd]

keg in kc-

If I thought that we were a stud CB away from a great Defense, I would cough up for the stud CB in a heartbeat. However, we are not a stud CB away from a great Defense. And I am not even factoring the NFL’s campaign against CBs into that equation.

If Barber were healthy, I might be convinced that Barber, Bell & Fujita is enough of an upgrade over Caver, Mitchell & Fujita. Once again, that is not the case.

IMO, Surtain is the equivalent of installing a bionic arm on a patient bleeding out from a sucking chest wound.

xoxo~
Gaz
Planet paramedic.


He is asking a lot of money but I think Surtain would do a much better job of sticking with a WR for the 10 or 11 seconds it takes us to put pressure on the opposing QB.

Yea, I admit it, I wanted another LB in FA.

[Frankie]

He is asking a lot of money but I think Surtain would do a much better job of sticking with a WR for the 10 or 11 seconds it takes us to put pressure on the opposing QB.

10 or 11 second? That's a lot to ask ANY CB! Ain't it?

[Gaz]

No argument from me on Simmons (had him #3 on my personal LB chart below Pierce and Witherspoon), but please explain your preference of Hill over Dyson.

Warrior5-

I just got lazy man. Instead of typing “any two of the following: Dyson, Hill, Edwards” I just used Hill as a place-holder.

Sorry for the confusion.

xoxo~
Gaz
Took a short cut and got lost in the weeds.

[Gaz]

Dr. rufusmaqe-

Once again, we run aground on a fundamental difference in assumptions.

I assume the NFL will continue to attack the CB position in its craving for completions. You apparently think Surtain can overcome this double-team of talented WR & Referees.

With that disconnect, we are bound to view the patient differently.

FWIW, with Barber out of the picture “mediocre” would be an upgrade at both CB & OLB positions. I would be pleased if we could improve to “mediocre.”

xoxo~
Gaz
Looking for a nurse to abuse.

[Gaz]

10 or 11 second? That's a lot to ask ANY CB! Ain't it?

Check your sarcasm filter, Frankie…

xoxo~
Gaz
Knee-deep in the stuff.

[Gaz]

I have to agree. We need more than 1 player but with that being said we need Surtain or Law. That still leaves us with about 3-4 players to go.

If you get Surtain [and his massive cap hit], what are you going to use for money on the remaining 2-3 players?

xoxo~
Gaz
Doubts a nice smile is going to cut it.

[nmt1]

Is this all you have? Seriously?

But what should I expect from someone who believes we are only entitled to 8 games a year. :rolleyes:

Why do you care? You're not expecting anything but 8 games. Lamar should suit up his MLS team and put them in Chiefs uniforms. They could give you 8 games as well.

Your standards suck.

You're the one that typed that sorry BS in the first place. Why don't you grow a sack and stop following the team if they piss you off so much? You specifically said that if they trot out the "We can't afford it" excuse again, you'll stop following them so closely. Well, according to all the Geniouses here, they've done it several times. I'm waiting on you to stop following them so closely.
As far as the 8 games thing, what else do the Chiefs owe those who buy tickets?
I bet you'd love it if Lamar suited up his MLS team. Then you have plenty to bitch about.

[dirk digler]

If you get Surtain [and his massive cap hit], what are you going to use for money on the remaining 2-3 players?

xoxo~
Gaz
Doubts a nice smile is going to cut it.


We are not going to do anything else it just my wishful thinking.

I have said from the outset that we need 6-7 new starters on D next year to be competitve and I know this will never happen this year anyway.

[Pants]

Gaz, are you not tired of seeing us getting burned on every 3rd and long? I mean, we'd make a team lose yardage on the first two downs and then they pass for 14 yards on the 3rd. Our line gets tired and eventually starts sucking even more, causing even longer passes. Surtain + Warfield, IMO, would be a good way to decrease that problem by at least 50%

[dirk digler]

You're the one that typed that sorry BS in the first place. Why don't you grow a sack and stop following the team if they piss you off so much? You specifically said that if they trot out the "We can't afford it" excuse again, you'll stop following them so closely. Well, according to all the Geniouses here, they've done it several times. I'm waiting on you to stop following them so closely.
As far as the 8 games thing, what else do the Chiefs owe those who buy tickets?
I bet you'd love it if Lamar suited up his MLS team. Then you have plenty to bitch about.

IMO they owe the fans to field a competitve team.

[htismaqe]

Dr. rufusmaqe-

Once again, we run aground on a fundamental difference in assumptions.

I assume the NFL will continue to attack the CB position in its craving for completions. You apparently think Surtain can overcome this double-team of talented WR & Referees.

With that disconnect, we are bound to view the patient differently.

FWIW, with Barber out of the picture “mediocre” would be an upgrade at both CB & OLB positions. I would be pleased if we could improve to “mediocre.”

xoxo~
Gaz
Looking for a nurse to abuse.


I think Surtain can overcome the current political climate in the NFL because he HAS ALREADY DONE SO.

The new rules not only didn't affect him last year, both he and Madison got BETTER.

[Dave Lane]

Give them our third hell its really a 4th anyway as it comes at the end of round 3. This i would be excited about.

Dave

[Pants]

Give them our third hell its really a 4th anyway as it comes at the end of round 3. This i would be excited about.

Dave

Can't trade our 3rd.

[Brock]

Give them our third hell its really a 4th anyway as it comes at the end of round 3. This i would be excited about.

Dave

:banghead:

[Gaz]

Metrolike-

Yes, I am tired of that. The answer, IMO, is not found in the secondary. It is found in putting the pencil-neck on the turf. At least in forcing him to throw before he is ready.

Yes, we need to upgrade our secondary. That is a given. Knight was a good first move. Get rid of McCleon, My opinion is that we are better-served with a good OLB & good CB instead of a crappy OLB and a great CB. The rules and Referees demand it.

xoxo~
Gaz
Looking ahead to the crappy OLB & great CB with some trepidation.

[Gaz]

rufusmaqe-

That is a good situation for you, man. You will go into the season with a lot more confidence than I will.

Maybe Surtain can win me over this season. I certainly hope so.

xoxo~
Gaz
Never can find a candy-striper when he needs one.

[Chief Henry]

Do you think that CP will fork out that much cash?



NO fricken way CP gives that for a corner back. He'll sign the NFL min
to Law before he gives a 12-15 million bonus to Surtain.

[Pants]

OK, Gaz, I'll give you the "maby your right..."

[Gaz]

Well, patients and colleagues, it is time for me to head home.

Interesting discussion. Of course, you are all wrong and I am right, but that is the price I pay for being a solitary genius.

Vaya, gringos.

xoxo~
Gaz
May have to settle for an intern.

[Gaz]

OK, Gaz, I'll give you the "maby your right..."

I will treasure that.

Okay, now I REALLY am outta here.

xoxo~
Gaz
Clutching it close to his crusty old heart.

[ChiTown]

Give them our third hell its really a 4th anyway as it comes at the end of round 3. This i would be excited about.

Dave

At this point, our 2nd rder in this draft means a sum total of dick to us in the 05-06 season. Point is, we should be mortgaging everything we have for 2005-06 - and that includes getting Surtain in a Red and Gold uni for this season whether it's a 2nd or 4th rder. This year is our last year to getrdone with this core group on Offense. After that, we begin the rebuild. JMHO.

[Bob Dole]

Our third is not tradeable. This has been mentioned several times, but I thought I'd offer it up for those that appear to have missed it.

Compensatory draft picks are not tradeable.

Missed it.

Thanks.

[The Bad Guy]

You're the one that typed that sorry BS in the first place. Why don't you grow a sack and stop following the team if they piss you off so much? You specifically said that if they trot out the "We can't afford it" excuse again, you'll stop following them so closely. Well, according to all the Geniouses here, they've done it several times. I'm waiting on you to stop following them so closely.
As far as the 8 games thing, what else do the Chiefs owe those who buy tickets?
I bet you'd love it if Lamar suited up his MLS team. Then you have plenty to bitch about.
They owe to put the best product they can on the field. That's what they owe fans. That's what any NFL organization owes it's fans.

Why don't you grow a sack and start having some expectations for something you are passionate about?

I made my statement out of anger because of the constant excuses. You have been lulled to sleep by the futility and if you really only think that they owe you 8 games then that's pretty ****ing sad from a fan standpoint.

I don't enjoy watching a team lose. Sorry, you may accept that, but I don't.

I don't think there would ever be a day I stopped watching the Chiefs, but that day would come if I accepted that they only owed fans 8 games.

[BigChiefFan]

Metrolike-

Yes, I am tired of that. The answer, IMO, is not found in the secondary. It is found in putting the pencil-neck on the turf. At least in forcing him to throw before he is ready.

Yes, we need to upgrade our secondary. That is a given. Knight was a good first move. Get rid of McCleon, My opinion is that we are better-served with a good OLB & good CB instead of a crappy OLB and a great CB. The rules and Referees demand it.

xoxo~
Gaz
Looking ahead to the crappy OLB & great CB with some trepidation.

Gaz, you've already stated the Chiefs already have Hicks cemented in the starting role(I don't believe that he is cemented), so we will have the same pass-rush as last year, going by your beliefs, that Hicks is firmly entrenched as the starter and you still don't want Surtain makes no sense to me. The FA OLBers are not better at their position than Surtain is at his. Again, where does this magical pass-rush come from? Our secondary is attrocious, has been for years now, relying on Sapp and a rookie as the opening day starters is itching to make a crap secondary even weaker. I just can't believe a defensive homer saw the same games as me the past 4 years and thinks Sapp and Dyson are the answer to our woes.

Gaz needs to watch Surtain in action.

[redbrian]

“Right now, the best offer out there for Surtain is Kansas City's fourth-round pick.”

And yet there are people on this board who suggest that the Chiefs not only drop their drawers but also come pre-lubed.

Damn I would love to negotiate a deal with some of you people; it would be like taking the proverbial candy from a baby.

In negotiations even if your back is to the wall you do not come to the table bent over bare assed and lubed for lovin.

Unless of course you just like to take it up the bum. NTTIAWWT

[Pants]

Gaz, you've already stated the Chiefs already have Hicks cemented in the starting role(I don't believe that he is cemented), so we will have the same pass-rush as last year, going by your beliefs, that Hicks is firmly entrenched as the starter and you still don't want Surtain makes no sense to me. The FA OLBers are not better at their position than Surtain is at his. Again, where does this magical pass-rush come from? Our secondary is attrocious, has been for years now, relying on Sapp and a rookie as the opening day starters is itching to make a crap secondary even weaker. I just can't believe a defensive homer saw the same games as me the past 4 years and thinks Sapp and Dyson are the answer to our woes.

Gaz needs to watch Surtain in action.

I think he wants a good OLB to put the pressure on the "pencil necks."

[ChiTown]

“Right now, the best offer out there for Surtain is Kansas City's fourth-round pick.”

And yet there are people on this board who suggest that the Chiefs not only drop their drawers but also come pre-lubed.

Damn I would love to negotiate a deal with some of you people; it would be like taking the proverbial candy from a baby.

In negotiations even if your back is to the wall you do not come to the table bent over bare assed and lubed for lovin.

Unless of course you just like to take it up the bum. NTTIAWWT

Dear GG (Gordon Gecko):

I really don't give a crap what we offer up, beyond our 1st rder. I just want Surtain in KC. He IMMEDIATELY bolsters our D and locks down a much needed CB spot, especially if/when Warfield is suspended.

[dirk digler]

“Right now, the best offer out there for Surtain is Kansas City's fourth-round pick.”

And yet there are people on this board who suggest that the Chiefs not only drop their drawers but also come pre-lubed.

Damn I would love to negotiate a deal with some of you people; it would be like taking the proverbial candy from a baby.

In negotiations even if your back is to the wall you do not come to the table bent over bare assed and lubed for lovin.

Unless of course you just like to take it up the bum. NTTIAWWT

While I agree with that I think it is safe to say that everyone knows we are desperate for secondary help. I don't think that it is top secret and everyone knows we are basically down to choosing between 2 CB's, Law or Surtain.

[tk13]

You know guys, if we just trade them our 3rd round pick, we'll get this deal done!!1!!!111!!!

[BigChiefFan]

I think he wants a good OLB to put the pressure on the "pencil necks."
I know. He said Anthony Simmons is his answer and I still say that is not a better move than Surtain. Trying to get Gaz to realize how good Surtain is.

[ChiTown]

Trying to get Gaz to realize how good Surtain is.

Well, you better offer to feed him shots of Tequila Rose and start him up a bubble bath. Otherwise, you're just pissing in the wind..........

[keg in kc]

A stud CB would go MUCH further in fixing this defense than another mediocre OLB.

IMO, adding Dyson and a mediocre OLB instead of Surtain is the equivalent of putting a new Armani suit on a patient bleeding out from a sucking chest wound.What this defense needs, and I think they might have gotten a start with Bell, is playmakers. Players that offenses have to account for. You can add all the William Bartees and Dexter McDysons you want, but at the end of the day, you'll never have more than the sum of the parts. Mediocre talent breeds mediocre results. Period. Coordinators and schemes don't make defenses great. Great players make defenses great. And that's what we need to be adding. Not peon outside linebackers and no-name nickelbacks. We have a whole roster full of those guys already.

[beer bacon]

Two ways we could improve our pass rush and LB core is to either trade for Detroits #10 1st round pick if Merriman is around so we can snatch him before the Cowboys draft him. Another way if that is not possible is to trade down to the late 1st and grab Blackstock who is also a good blitzer. Either of these two should be a impact guy for our pass rush if drafted.

[Calcountry]

Yep. My problem with this whole thing is that CP's drafting history of 2nd round picks has been horrid. Why not give up that 2nd round pick who you know is going to be cut 2 yrs from now anyway?ROFL

[milkman]

Two ways we could improve our pass rush and LB core is to either trade for Detroits #10 1st round pick if Merriman is around so we can snatch him before the Cowboys draft him. Another way if that is not possible is to trade down to the late 1st and grab Blackstock who is also a good blitzer. Either of these two should be a impact guy for our pass rush if drafted.

I'll take an order of option #2 please.
Add Surtain and Marlin Jackson, mix well, and we have the makings of a pretty good D.