Time For Pena to Go???

[petegz28]

Lack of fundamentals and terrible in-game managment of pitchers has cost us probably 50% if not more of our losses.

The latest....Pena pulls a hot Sisco after he gets thr first out to put in Burgos with empty bases during a 1-1 game in the 9th. We lost 2-1

[SCTrojan]

Give him a few more weeks, then get rid of him. At this point, it couldn't hurt.

[chief52]

It would probably be best to give him a little more major league talent before you get carried away. The manager is not one of their problems, it is players. Pena is doing fine with what his being dealt.

[alanm]

To think we could of had Buck Showalter. But Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!! Mr Cheap Ass Walmart had to save a few pennies and hire Pena!! :cuss::banghead::cuss::banghead::cuss::banghead:

[Mr. Kotter]

Give him a few more weeks, then get rid of him. At this point, it couldn't hurt.

This may rile you, friend....but this is affirmative action in work: if he had been white, Pena woulda been gone LAST year. JMHO.

[jspchief]

I'd say it's time for you to accept the Royals for what they are.

[irishjayhawk]

I feel bad for any manager. They have no talent to work with.

[chiefqueen]

Give him a few more weeks, then get rid of him. At this point, it couldn't hurt.

Hey, if we lose out in April, which is quite possible (if not probable given those games are against the Twins & White Sox) we'll be behind the pace set by the '62 Mets.............for wins.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYM/1962_sched.shtml

[chiefqueen]

Hey, if we lose out in April, which is quite possible (if not probable given those games are against the Twins & White Sox) we'll be behind the pace set by the '62 Mets.............for wins.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYM/1962_sched.shtml

Bottom line.........I like Pena, but we need a change.

[Valiant]

It would probably be best to give him a little more major league talent before you get carried away. The manager is not one of their problems, it is players. Pena is doing fine with what his being dealt.



No his bad player managing has cost us five games this year...

[Valiant]

To think we could of had Buck Showalter. But Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!! Mr Cheap Ass Walmart had to save a few pennies and hire Pena!! :cuss::banghead::cuss::banghead::cuss::banghead:



Actually sweeney and the rest of the players didnt want showalter because he is a nazi of a manager... Showalter was who glass wanted, but sweeney and others said they would not play for him...

[beavis]

Actually sweeney and the rest of the players didnt want showalter because he is a nazi of a manager... Showalter was who glass wanted, but sweeney and others said they would not play for him...
*cough* Tony Muser *cough*

[CoMoChief]

If Terry Francona, Joe Torre, Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa, or the manager from the Angels (I forget his name-too lazy to look it up) coached us we still wouldnt go .500. It's all about business and David Glass is a businessman, not a baseball fan. Until he leaves, we will never have a somewhat respectable baseball team in KC.

[Nightfyre]

If Terry Francona, Joe Torre, Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa, or the manager from the Angels (I forget his name-too lazy to look it up) coached us we still wouldnt go .500. It's all about business and David Glass is a businessman, not a baseball fan. Until he leaves, we will never have a somewhat respectable baseball team in KC.
mmmhmmm... now support that claim.

[beavis]

mmmhmmm... now support that claim.
Glass is cheap! He's ruining our team! Why doesn't he spend $200 million so we can win!

Whoa, channeled petegz28 there for a minute. Sorry about that.

[alanm]

Actually sweeney and the rest of the players didnt want showalter because he is a nazi of a manager... Showalter was who glass wanted, but sweeney and others said they would not play for him...
And Texas sucked as bad as we do now but their a much improved ball club with Showalter. A guy who knows how to manage and plug in the pieces and get rid of the dead baggage will do wonders for a team. F*ck Sweeney and his overpriced singles hitting and booting balls at 1st. :cuss:

[Valiant]

guess it makes you happy that he is being asked to be traded...

[Abba-Dabba]

This may rile you, friend....but this is affirmative action in work: if he had been white, Pena woulda been gone LAST year. JMHO.

Oh yeah that's it. Those poor poor white guys. Always getting picked on and stuff.

Why don't you do us all a favor and pull out the race card while you are at it.

[htismaqe]

I'm a Cardinals fan, but I follow the Royals closely and consider myself an unbiased observer.

It's time for Pena to go.

1) The fanbase needs a shot in the arm to keep ticket sales up. It's obvious that it's not going to come in the form of a big player signing. The next best thing is a new manager.

2) The stated goal for this season was to develop young talent. It's not happening. They completely lack fundamentals and they're getting worse instead of better.

[keg in kc]

We don't have the players. Baseball Jesus couldn't manage the Royals to .500 at this point.

[htismaqe]

Glass is cheap! He's ruining our team! Why doesn't he spend $200 million so we can win!

Whoa, channeled petegz28 there for a minute. Sorry about that.

I know you're being sarcastic, but there's got to be a middle ground. Glass is CHEAP. He's getting somewhere between $50M and $55M from the league for revenue sharing, etc. That's BEFORE any type of gate or stadium revenue.

In other words, he's pocketing some of the shared money, because the payroll is only $38M. The other owners are starting to get pissed. Don't be surprised if there's a salary minimum in the next CBA.

[ILChief]

We don't have the players. Baseball Jesus couldn't manage the Royals to .500 at this point.

true they don't have the most talent. but the lack of fundamentals and mental errors and lack of accountability are what's most troubling.

[htismaqe]

We don't have the players. Baseball Jesus couldn't manage the Royals to .500 at this point.

We all know that. But Baird and Pena said this year was a development year.

They're going to lose 100 games AND develop NOBODY.

[tk13]

I know you're being sarcastic, but there's got to be a middle ground. Glass is CHEAP. He's getting somewhere between $50M and $55M from the league for revenue sharing, etc. That's BEFORE any type of gate or stadium revenue.

In other words, he's pocketing some of the shared money, because the payroll is only $38M. The other owners are starting to get pissed. Don't be surprised if there's a salary minimum in the next CBA.
Yeah, but the players are not the only expenses that you have during a season. According to Forbes, which is what we all use to determine Lamar's profit since they seem to be on top of this stuff, the Royals made about $23 million in gate reciepts last year, and spent almost 60 million dollars toward player payroll when you include bonuses and dead money. According to Forbes, Glass made $3 million dollars in profit last year before taxes. Maybe I'm totally missing something somewhere. I still think that 55-60 million number is awful high. The Yankees only gave 35 million by themselves to revenue sharing and they're the big culprit, nobody else goes that far over the luxury tax... I know there's other TV deals and stuff but that is a lot of money, I wonder what these other small-market teams get. Nobody really knows how all the revenue sharing stuff works it seems like.

That said, and this is just my personal opinion, I hope Glass is saving some money, and when it comes time for some of these guys to get paid, we have a little money to spend. It really would be the smartest way to do things, as opposed to ride up against a zero profit/salary cap space threshold and pay the piper down the road like most fans want to do.

[keg in kc]

true they don't have the most talent. but the lack of fundamentals and mental errors and lack of accountability are what's most troubling.I take that as a reflection of the problems we've had with the minor league system, which we've only been in the process of fixing the last couple of years. The youngsters just don't play like they're prepared for the majors. They're learning skills at the level where they're supposed to be polishing them. I don't think an extra year in AA would have been a bad thing for virtually anyone on the roster who's not in the starting rotation. That's one area where I do think the statement that we're fielding a "AAA team in Kansas City" is valid. There's an awful lot of guys on our roster who just don't seem ready for the bright lights.

And not to downplay the importance of fundamentals, another huge issue with this team is their inability to hit. You can't go through streaks of 3-5 hit games where you score 1-2 runs and expect to win very much.

Pena's going to be fired. I think anyone who expects anything to improve after that, just because we changed managers, is going to be sorely disappointed. And I hear a lot of talk about needing a disciplinarian. Well, the name "Tony Muser" comes to mind. We all remember how that went, I'm sure.

Players are the only thing that will win games.

[tk13]

We all know that. But Baird and Pena said this year was a development year.

They're going to lose 100 games AND develop NOBODY.
I think that is a pretty brash conclusion to make already 20 games into a season. It took John Buck and David DeJesus somewhere in that neighborhood to not be abysmal at the plate last year, and they both tore it up in the 2nd half of the season.

[htismaqe]

That said, and this is just my personal opinion, I hope Glass is saving some money, and when it comes time for some of these guys to get paid, we have a little money to spend. It really would be the smartest way to do things, as opposed to ride up against a zero profit/salary cap space threshold and pay the piper down the road like most fans want to do.

According to Glass himself, he's LOSING money, so your scenario is impossible unless he's lying.

[htismaqe]

I take that as a reflection of the problems we've had with the minor league system, which we've only been in the process of fixing the last couple of years. The youngsters just don't play like they're prepared for the majors. They're learning skills at the level where they're supposed to be polishing them. I don't think an extra year in AA would have been a bad thing for virtually anyone on the roster who's not in the starting rotation. That's one area where I do think the statement that we're fielding a "AAA team in Kansas City" is valid. There's an awful lot of guys on our roster who just don't seem ready for the bright lights.

And not to downplay the importance of fundamentals, another huge issue with this team is their inability to hit. You can't go through streaks of 3-5 hit games where you score 1-2 runs and expect to win very much.

Pena's going to be fired. I think anyone who expects anything to improve after that, just because we changed managers, is going to be sorely disappointed. And I hear a lot of talk about needing a disciplinarian. Well, the name "Tony Muser" comes to mind. We all remember how that went, I'm sure.

Players are the only thing that will win games.

Like I said before, it's not about wins. With these players, nobody is going win. But you have to make PROGRESS and they just aren't.

Part of the problem, like you said, is in the farm system. And alot of that stems from their TERRIBLE drafting over the last few years.

[htismaqe]

I think that is a pretty brash conclusion to make already 20 games into a season. It took John Buck and David DeJesus somewhere in that neighborhood to not be abysmal at the plate last year, and they both tore it up in the 2nd half of the season.

Are John Buck and David DeJesus going to take this to the next level? Where the Johnny Damon on this team, or the Carlos Beltran?

This team has the potential to have some GREAT pitchers and he's ruining them. He leaves them in too long, he takes them out too soon, there's zero consistency.

[tk13]

According to Glass himself, he's LOSING money, so your scenario is impossible unless he's lying.
Oh, I don't think he is saving money. I didn't say that's what he's doing, that's what I wish he was doing. He might actually make a little bit more money with a smaller payroll, but I just don't believe this is some cash cow he's making tons of money off of. We don't draw big crowds, the ticket prices are about the lowest in professional sports, there aren't a ton of luxury suites. I don't know why Forbes would lie about something like that. Maybe they're wrong.

[keg in kc]

Like I said before, it's not about wins. With these players, nobody is going win. But you have to make PROGRESS and they just aren't.That's where we disagree: winning is an important part of progress. Losing hinders development, at least at this level of baseball. It just festers, creates a bad atmosphere, both in the clubhouse and in the fanbase. You won't see progress from a team in a funk like this. And it'll be difficult to pull out of because they just don't have the kind of lineup that can score enough to overcome mistakes, build momentum and confidence.

[tk13]

Are John Buck and David DeJesus going to take this to the next level? Where the Johnny Damon on this team, or the Carlos Beltran?

This team has the potential to have some GREAT pitchers and he's ruining them. He leaves them in too long, he takes them out too soon, there's zero consistency.
David DeJesus can be just as good or better as Johnny Damon, I love watching him hit. Just watch his approach, he's a really good leadoff man. Buck is very smooth behind the plate but still has work to do, at the end of last year he was playing at a pretty high level for a rookie catcher, you can see the potential there. I don't see a Beltran, that would be asking a lot, but I'd trade 9 Beltran's for some starting pitching, and we actually have that now. It's not all the way there yet, but we're going to have some high draft picks this year, and we're probably going to have some high draft picks next year. We're coming off a pretty good draft last year where we got guys like Billy Butler and JP Howell, and Baird has done a good job working with his baseball people, and brought in the former Angels director of player development who helped turn that farm system into a zoo full of great young players so he can help us... I think it's a work in progress, we are not the A's or Twins yet, we're not supposed to be. I think people are getting things mixed up, I don't think we're at that stage of the process yet where we're supposed to be the A's with young arms out the wazoo...and I don't know what the future holds, but I'd like to see Baird get the chance to follow this through, and maybe things will start clicking. I'd rather do that then sign washed up Juan Gonzalez's and Jeff King's every other year.

[FringeNC]

We have to get a manager who understands the importance of our hitters working the count.

It seems Pena sends these guys up hacking.

Pena has no clue about when to pull a pitcher, and no clue as to why the Royals don't score runs (low OPS).

Allard Baird is trying to modernize this franchise by incorporating some lessons from Moneyball, but his manager is a dinosaur who doesn't believe any of that stuff. Pena has to go.

[Boozer]

I wonder if Pena will be fired before the Royals leave KC.

Just thinking aloud here.

[Saulbadguy]

No. At this point, it would be re-shuffling the deck chairs on the titanic.

However, I do think this team will get better as the season progresses, and I even think they will finish strong.

[Chief Henry]

I'd say it's time for you to accept the Royals for what they are.


AAA Baseball at its mediocre best...

[petegz28]

Glass is cheap! He's ruining our team! Why doesn't he spend $200 million so we can win!

Whoa, channeled petegz28 there for a minute. Sorry about that.


You are such a queef. I never said spend $200 million.

[petegz28]

I know you're being sarcastic, but there's got to be a middle ground. Glass is CHEAP. He's getting somewhere between $50M and $55M from the league for revenue sharing, etc. That's BEFORE any type of gate or stadium revenue.

In other words, he's pocketing some of the shared money, because the payroll is only $38M. The other owners are starting to get pissed. Don't be surprised if there's a salary minimum in the next CBA.


Actually everything we got including season tickets before game 1 of the season was $74 million. That was before 1 parking fee, 1 non-season ticket sale, 1 hot dog, 1 beer, 1 t-shirt. It's pathetic what Glass is doing.

[Mr. Kotter]

Oh yeah that's it. Those poor poor white guys. Always getting picked on and stuff.

Why don't you do us all a favor and pull out the race card while you are at it.

No whining. Just the facts.

Does affirmative action grant "preferences" to "protected classes," or not? Simple question: yes or no?

[SCTrojan]

I agree with the crowd who thinks that the only thing sickening is the way the Royals play. They don't hit cutoff men, they don't play smart defense, they don't advance runners - the type of stuff you have to do when you aren't very good offensively.

Couple that with Pena's method of managing the pitching, which is by hunch and feel one day and by the book the next, you have a pretty volatile mix.

You only have to look at last night's game as a microcosm. McEwing tries to get a double play, throws wide at first, allowing a runner to advance to second. Next play, Ford hits a bloop single, runner scores. If the runner was on second, no way he scores.

Sisco comes in during the top of the eighth because Pena is managing by feel, and strikes out Hunter. The next inning, Sisco left in because, I guess, he wants lefty Sisco to face lefty Jacque Jones. Jones grounds weakly to second. Of course, to get righty/righty, Burgos comes in to face LeCroy. LeCroy singles and rally begins.

I don't know if it's Pena or what, but this is the second year in a row where the Royals aren't playing fundamental baseball. It's a rebuilding year, fine, I'll take the losses. What I can't take is the constant mistakes that cause losses in one-run games.

[Coach]

Well hate to rain the party on some people who wants him to go, but I don' think that will happen anytime.

Safe: Pena's job not in danger

Royals manager gets nod from GM, players
By Matt LaWell / MLB.com

KANSAS CITY -- Despite a six-game losing skid and one of the slowest starts in Royals history, Tony Pena's job is safe.
Royals general manager Allard Baird quelled any rumors to the contrary Tuesday night when he confirmed that Pena will remain the team's manager through at least the 2005 season.

"What's very important when you look at our direction ... is consistency," Baird said. "You need a manager who's willing to embrace those young players and go through the ups and downs of the process. Tony is very much a big part of that. It doesn't make any sense to think otherwise for us."

Though neither Pena nor his players said they thought the manager's job was in danger, Baird's endorsement should allow everyone within the organization to breathe a little easier. Pena, of course, never let the rumors bother him.

"I feel no pressure at all," said Pena, who has led the Royals to a record of 195-275 since being named manager on May, 15 2002. "I have a job to do and my job is to make sure my players get better. That's what we work on every single day."

And while those players are getting better, the process has been slow, and sometimes painful.

Among the 14 American League teams, the Royals are 12th in batting average at .239, and last in runs scored, with 70. They're 12th in team ERA, ahead of only Texas and Tampa Bay, and they're last in the league in fielding percentage. After committing a Major League-leading 21 errors through 20 games, they're also on pace to break the 32-year-old club record for errors in a season.

But while discussing those numbers, it's important to remember that under Pena, 34 players have made their Major League debut, including three this season. And among that group of 34 players, 10 are currently playing in Kansas City.

But even those figures aren't enough to deter Baird or Pena, or especially the players. Pena called for extra practice Tuesday afternoon for first and second basemen and relief pitchers. Instead, the entire team was out drilling fundamentals nearly four hours before the Royals' game with the Twins.

"A lot of the guys here are improving," first baseman Matt Stairs said. "Tony has no reason to feel pressure. Tony's not playing the game. We're the ones going out and making mistakes, so he shouldn't be worried. It's never the manager's fault."

"The bottom line is the direction of the ballclub," Baird said. "We're in a rebuilding mode. We've got a lot of young players on this team -- and more to come -- and having the manager that can maximize and develop their ability is very important. Tony can do that for this ballclub. That's why he's here and that's why he will be here."

http://kansascity.royals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050427&content_id=1030029&vkey=news_kc&fext=.jsp&c_id=kc

[Coach]

Although I don't understand why he would want to pull Sisco in favor of someone. Sisco is effective aganist righties as he is aganist lefties.

Sisco vs. Left: .167
Sisco vs. Right: .135

[Saulbadguy]

No whining. Just the facts.

Does affirmative action grant "preferences" to "protected classes," or not? Simple question: yes or no?
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?!

[ChiTown]

"What's very important when you look at our direction ... is consistency,"


ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

Yes, consistently bad teams :deevee:

[Eleazar]

To think we could of had Buck Showalter. But Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!! Mr Cheap Ass Walmart had to save a few pennies and hire Pena!! :cuss::banghead::cuss::banghead::cuss::banghead:

.

[Coach]

Well...at least take this for a good sign. At least we don't have Ozzie Guillen. This sounds pretty serious between these two. Portion of the story from the Chicago Tribune.

He's a piece of [bleep]," Guillen told Sox beat writers after learning of Ordonez's contempt for Guillen and alleging his manager steered him away from the Sox and to Detroit.

"He's a [bleep], that's what he is," Guillen continued. "He's another Venezuelan [bleep]. [Bleep] him.

"He has an enemy. Now he has a big one. He knows I can [bleep] him a lot of different ways. He better shut the [bleep] up and play for the Detroit Tigers."

In a five-minute interview a member of the Tigers staff halted, Ordonez expressed his frustration over his latest injury but was blunter in discussing the lack of a relationship he had with Guillen from the time they briefly played together with the Sox at the end of the 1997 season.

"We never clicked, even when we played together," Ordonez said. "I don't consider him my friend. I have nothing to say. I don't want to see him or talk to him. He's my enemy.

"If he comes to me and wants to apologize, I wouldn't accept it."

Ordonez said later he didn't have a problem with Sox general manager Ken Williams and insisted it was Guillen who got involved with the Sox's decision not to re-sign him.

"I don't talk bad about people when people are hurt," said Ordonez, who is on the disabled list and will be examined Monday in Philadelphia by a hernia specialist. "I'm very straightforward. There are a lot of people who try to push you down and do the opposite and not try to help you."

Guillen became furious at any suggestion that he should apologize to Ordonez.

"Why do I have to apologize to him?" Guillen responded while sitting in his office chair and tapping his right foot frequently. "Who the [bleep] is Magglio Ordonez? Why ever talk about me? He doesn't do [bleep] for me. But if he thinks I'm his enemy, he has a big enemy. He knows me.

[Abba-Dabba]

No whining. Just the facts.

Does affirmative action grant "preferences" to "protected classes," or not? Simple question: yes or no?

IMO, no. I have never been passed over because of my race, or fired either. And I have never been party to someone being passed over because of their race, or their firing. I have never seen someone hired or their retention because of their race.

Maybe in your 1800's colored world that might be the case. In nmine and 99% of everyone elses it isn't.

Now, I have question for you. Do white males on average recieve higher pay than their female and minority counterparts? Simple question: yes or no?

[beavis]

I know you're being sarcastic, but there's got to be a middle ground. Glass is CHEAP. He's getting somewhere between $50M and $55M from the league for revenue sharing, etc. That's BEFORE any type of gate or stadium revenue.

In other words, he's pocketing some of the shared money, because the payroll is only $38M. The other owners are starting to get pissed. Don't be surprised if there's a salary minimum in the next CBA.
Actually, Baird has hinted at that money being accumulated to sign players like Greinke, Affeldt, Hernandez, etc. to long term contracts when the time comes.

But the notion that he bought this baseball team because it's a cash cow is stupid at best.

[petegz28]

Actually, Baird has hinted at that money being accumulated to sign players like Greinke, Affeldt, Hernandez, etc. to long term contracts when the time comes.

But the notion that he bought this baseball team because it's a cash cow is stupid at best.


No one said he bought it because it was a cash cow. But you sure in the hell aren't going to make any money by putting out teams that lost 100+ games year after year. And the only way you aren't going to lost 100+ year after year is to spend a little coin on some decent players.

[keg in kc]

Spent 51 million last year. Still lost 100+.

What we need to do is play through the allstar break, trade Sweeney for some prospects who can actually hit (clearing some serious $$$ for an everyday player next year), trade Brian Anderson for whatever we can get and then spend money on guys not named "Eli Marrero" "Tony Graffanino" and "Emil Brown" next offseason.

[SCTrojan]

Spent 51 million last year. Still lost 100+.

What we need to do is play through the allstar break, trade Sweeney for some prospects who can actually hit (clearing some serious $$$ for an everyday player next year), trade Brian Anderson for whatever we can get and then spend money on guys not named "Eli Marrero" "Tony Graffanino" and "Emil Brown" next offseason.

Agree with most of your post. But I think a big chunk of the difference between last year and this was Beltran's salary - about $9 mil. The rest was tied up in Darrel May, Desi Relaford, Benito Santiago, etc. I don't think we paid Juan Gone that much, but don't know for sure.

They've tried to get experienced players on the cheap - like Marrero, Brown, Graffanino, etc. Long seems like he has done okay, though. Anderson will go before the trading deadline, hopefully we can get some prospects for him.

I think you and I have talked about this before. The difference between 2.5 mil Marrero and 5-6 mil whoever is huge. If you're going to spend money on a veteran who's going to take playing time away from a prospect, then at least pay to get someone who will be productive.

[Dave Lane]

Lack of fundamentals and terrible in-game managment of pitchers has cost us probably 50% if not more of our losses.

The latest....Pena pulls a hot Sisco after he gets thr first out to put in Burgos with empty bases during a 1-1 game in the 9th. We lost 2-1

Yes he's a joke...

Dave

[Eleazar]

Good lord this crap gets so old. If the Royals were one or two players away then Glass said he would sign them. They tried to do it last year when it appeared that we might be one or two players away. But there's no point in dumping $20 million more into a team that is a turd to begin with. Glass didn't get rich by being so stupid he would spend $20 million more to win 10 more games.

People also don't understand that because the Yankees are paying someone 10 million per year doesn't mean we could have had them for 10 million. It just means that if we had bid 10 they would have bid 11, and so on, until we were out of the running. No one outbids teams like NY for players they want. We may succeed in driving up the price but we would still not get a player that NY or Boston et al decided they wanted.

Pena might do things I don't like but he proved he could win with a reasonable level of talent in 2003. and God himself could not manage this lineup to a winning record. You can't win by getting 4 hits every night.

Baseball is effed up and will remain effed up until there is a salary cap. Until then, smaller markets will continue to be over a barrel. Yes I follow the team, I go to more games than any of you haters do I'm sure, but I realize the way baseball works and that we're currently hoping at best to have a winning season, maybe to get a wild card and host a couple of playoff games, until the game gets fixed.

[Mr. Kotter]

IMO, no. I have never been passed over because of my race, or fired either. And I have never been party to someone being passed over because of their race, or their firing. I have never seen someone hired or their retention because of their race.

Maybe in your 1800's colored world that might be the case. In nmine and 99% of everyone elses it isn't.

Now, I have question for you. Do white males on average recieve higher pay than their female and minority counterparts? Simple question: yes or no?

I have seen it; though I haven't personally experienced it yet...

As to your question, yes. And that is disgraceful too.