Whitlock: Don’t be too quick to judge

[Pitt Gorilla]

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/11749682.htm

Jeremiah Creswell thought no one would believe him. He believed his life as a free man ended for the foreseeable future when he learned that one of the five men he stabbed outside the Moon Bar in Lawrence on May 19 was Kansas basketball player J.R. Giddens, the Jayhawks’ leading returning scorer.

Creswell assumed witnesses would conspire and he’d face assault charges at the least — and maybe much worse, particularly if someone died.

When Jason King, my colleague at The Star, and I began the task of tracking down Creswell last Friday, we discovered an elusive target.

Within hours of being beaten, kicked and bricked by at least 10 men at the entrance of the Moon Bar, Creswell was shipped by Lawrence police to the Shawnee County jail in Topeka. Creswell had an outstanding warrant in his hometown, and Lawrence detectives were unsure whether Creswell was the victim or the perpetrator in the melee at the Moon Bar.

Creswell was sure the police and everyone else would eventually conclude he was in the wrong at the Lawrence nightclub, so when he was bailed out of jail Saturday afternoon, he went into hiding. He ignored my repeated phone calls and told everyone close to him to deny knowing his whereabouts.

Saturday morning, we had knocked on the door of the Olathe home where we’d learned Creswell and his mother were staying. We heard footsteps inside, but no one answered. We eventually located his mother at her day job as a pharmacy clerk at an Olathe drug store.

Despite identifying ourselves as reporters, she assumed we were police detectives and was reluctant to talk.

The next day we drove to a small Kansas town where we’d been told Jeremiah was staying with Debra Wilson, the maternal grandmother of his 5-year-old child. We talked to Debra, who had bailed Jeremiah out of jail, on the front porch of her home. She told us she’d talk to Jeremiah for us, but she admitted he didn’t want to talk. She said he was afraid that the Kansas basketball program would use its influence and money to convince the police that Jeremiah had instigated the brawl. And then she added the smoking gun, the unspoken issue that everyone involved knew played a major role in the Moon Bar incident.

She said Jeremiah feared that all of the witnesses would blame the “white kid.”

“And, you know, not being offensive, but you’re a black guy who is coming here to defend the black KU basketball players,” Debra said, looking me in the eyes and then turning her head away.

Yeah, Jeremiah Creswell, 24, is white. According to witnesses, 10 black men, led by Giddens, stomped and punched Creswell around 2:20 a.m. on May 19. He was hit with bricks and bottles. Shortly after Giddens threw the first punch, Creswell, 5 feet 9, 150 pounds, began swinging a 4-inch knife in an attempt to hold off attackers, many of whom were much larger. Giddens is 6-5, 200 pounds. Kansas freshman center C.J. Giles, who according to witnesses also assaulted Creswell, is 6-10, 240. Bryant Nash, a former Jayhawk player who admitted punching Creswell, is 6-7, 210.

It was more than Creswell’s race that made him fearful. He’s poor. He has a criminal record. He’s a member of a street gang, The Bloods. He has “M.O.B.” tattooed across the top of his chest. His son’s first and middle names are tattooed below his ears. He has several gold teeth. He cried that he couldn’t afford an attorney.

Creswell assumed he’d be “profiled.” No way would anyone believe a gang of college boys could attack a thug dressed in Blood red, wearing a Tony Montana/Scarface T-shirt. Monday evening, when I first met Jeremiah, I could sense his trepidation. You could tell he thought we couldn’t see his humanity. I’ve had that feeling before, standing in front of a gaggle of South Carolina policemen who were convinced I’d broken into a string of homes. I’ve seen and sensed that fear from dozens of black boys.

This time it was reversed. The system, Creswell believed, was ready to steamroll a poor white boy so it could protect a group of pampered black boys. And maybe it was. The fact that we could get a sitdown with Creswell illustrated his disadvantage. Giddens and the basketball players had a strong wall of defense — the Kansas athletic department, which issued a blanket statement shortly after the incident and initially informed the media that its coaches, players and administrators would have no further comment. Meanwhile, Creswell talked with us for 90 minutes, primarily because we wouldn’t quit calling him and partially because of his own curiosity.

Let me make this clear: Jeremiah Creswell isn’t an angel. Life without a father, life with little money, life with little direction has turned him cold and defiant.

But his humanity hasn’t been erased. His gangster posturing doesn’t justify a mob swarming and attacking him. It doesn’t mean he’s a pathological liar. It doesn’t mean he’s incapable of experiencing and giving love. His friends praise him for his attentiveness and affection toward his son. Jeremiah’s life has no less value than yours or mine. He’s capable of change.

What crime or immorality has Jeremiah Creswell committed that Malcolm X didn’t? It probably seems odd or farfetched to compare Jeremiah to X. But at one time in his life, the legendary black leader was viewed no differently than Creswell.

So the tears that Creswell shed Monday recounting the events of May 19 were genuine. He feels the same pain you’d feel had you been bludgeoned by fists, feet, bricks and bottles. Creswell feared for his life during the attack. He feared for his freedom in the aftermath of the attack. He was absolutely floored when we told him that numerous witnesses, including two men who were hospitalized by his knife, were telling us that he’d acted in self-defense and that Giddens was the clear instigator.

I believe there are lessons in this whole sordid affair — lessons about handling privilege, lessons about giving in to stereotypes, lessons about following a fool, lessons about discrimination.
We’re all capable of these mistakes, especially those of us ignorant enough to believe we’re not.

[Rausch]

And since we're talking about people getting the poo end of the plunger:

Saturday morning, we had knocked on the door of the Olathe home where we’d learned Creswell and his mother were staying. We heard footsteps inside, but no one answered. We eventually located his mother at her day job as a pharmacy clerk at an Olathe drug store.


Quality there. The "high ground" is always to stalk the family for an editorial...

[HemiEd]

Dammit Roy, the Wal-Mart episode should have been an indicator. This is not what the Jayhawks need! :cuss:

[Braincase]

A LAwrence police officer I'm acquainted with says the Giddens is out damn near every night in spite of curfews. My opinion of Giddens is souring, and I'll be happy when he moves on .

[KCFalcon59]

A LAwrence police officer I'm acquainted with says the Giddens is out damn near every night in spite of curfews. My opinion of Giddens is souring, and I'll be happy when he moves on .

Which could be sooner rather than later if this is what happened.

[Braincase]

Which could be sooner rather than later if this is what happened.

Perhaps. I wonder if we'll see Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson coming to town to straighten out Whitlock.

[Bob Dole]

It's pretty clear that Lawrence needs to institute prohibition and close down all those damned bars.

[BigRedChief]

It's not a black and white thing. It's the poor fearing the rich and powerful thing

[KChiefs1]

Isn't this Giddens guy the same one who robbed Wal-Mart? Looks like KU has recruited some top-quality individuals for their basketball team!

[Eleazar]

Isn't this Giddens guy the same one who robbed Wal-Mart? Looks like KU has recruited some top-quality individuals for their basketball team!

Whatever man, you haven't been around here for a while. All the thugs go to MU, it's never a KU athlete getting in trouble. They're impeccable.

[Eleazar]

Giddens is 6-5, 200 pounds. Kansas freshman center C.J. Giles, who according to witnesses also assaulted Creswell, is 6-10, 240. Bryant Nash, a former Jayhawk player who admitted punching Creswell, is 6-7, 210.


Yeah, 3 guys who each probably size up pretty favorably against this guy, along with ~7 other people armed with bottles and bricks... sounds like a fair fight to me.

[redbrian]

Nice wholesome atmosphere they have developed there. Players hanging out in club which caters to known felons.

KU player incited fight at bar, witnesses say

Giddens, who was stabbed, denies allegations

By JASON KING and JASON WHITLOCK

The Kansas City Star


LAWRENCE — Kansas basketball player J.R. Giddens was the primary instigator of a fight last week that left him and four others with stab wounds, witnesses have told The Star.

According to four persons at the scene — including two of the stabbing victims — Giddens and at least 10 other men attacked Jeremiah Creswell as the 24-year-old Olathe resident stood alone outside the Moon Bar shortly after 2 a.m. on the morning of May 19.

Two witnesses said Giddens' KU teammate, C.J. Giles, was part of the group. Former KU player Bryant Nash admitted to The Star that he had punched Creswell.

The witnesses said Giddens hit Creswell in the face, sparking a brawl in which Creswell was beaten with fists, bricks and bottles and kicked after he fell to the ground. Creswell used a 4-inch folding knife to stab some of the attackers after the fight began.

“I was scared I was going to die,” Creswell told The Star. “I was scared for my life.”

Giddens, 20, suffered a severed artery in his left calf. He is expected to be on crutches for at least six weeks. Speaking Thursday from his home in Oklahoma City, Giddens denied that he had provoked the fight.

“I know what you've heard, but that's not true,” Giddens said. “All those people can say what they want to say. I'm sure the story will come out one-sided. That's fine. It still doesn't mean it's true.”

Giddens declined to comment further.

Nicholas Flores, 34, of Topeka, witnessed events inside and outside the bar. He said the group charged Creswell before he fought back.

“It was self-defense,” Flores said of Creswell, a convicted felon. “There ain't no ifs, ands or buts about it. I had to come forward. What happened to that kid … it wasn't right. He didn't deserve what he got.”

Lawrence police Capt. Dave Cobb said the department had interviewed almost 20 persons and was continuing to prepare a report for the Douglas County district attorney, who will then determine whether charges are warranted. It wasn't clear when that report will be completed.

“If there was a clear cut who started it, who's the victim and who's the suspect, then someone would have been charged the minute it happened,” Cobb said. “Everybody that was involved in it has a different version of how it started.”

Kansas men's basketball coach Bill Self, when reached at his home Thursday night, said he needed more information before passing judgment.

“I'm not going to defend him, and I'm not going to prosecute him,'' he said. “I'm just going to let it run its course and speak after I know what happened. I think the worst thing I could do is come out and say a guy is guilty when he's not, or come out and defend a guy that's not guilty when he is.

“Out of respect for the process, I won't have a comment one way or another until we give the police a chance to do their job and report back to us what they're investigating.”

Kansas athletic director Lew Perkins, reached by phone at Big 12 Conference meetings in Colorado Springs, Colo., also said he was waiting for the investigation to be completed.

“After that, Bill and I will sit down and talk about what to do next,” he said.

Giles, 19, did not return repeated phone calls seeking comment Thursday. On Monday night, he denied he had been involved in the fight.

Nash, 23, admitted that he had hit Creswell, but said he did so after learning that Creswell had cut Giddens.

“J.R. is like family to me,” Nash said. “When you hear someone stabbed someone from your family, you do everything you can to hurt them.”

***

The problems between Giddens and Creswell began sometime before 2 a.m. inside the Moon Bar, according to witnesses.

A large number of Kansas basketball and football players had gathered to celebrate the birthday of bar owner Ron Ruiz. Creswell was there, too, having arrived at the club shortly after midnight with a female friend who knows Ruiz. Although Giddens is not of legal drinking age, he was allowed to be in the Moon Bar, which permits anyone over 18 to enter the establishment.

Near closing time, Creswell said, Giddens approached him near a pool table and asked if he “had a problem.” Creswell, who admitted to being intoxicated, said he didn't know Giddens and had never spoken with him. But he didn't back down.

“I don't know if he was mistaking me for someone else or what,” Creswell said. “But he said, ‘You got a problem with me?' And I said, ‘Man, I ain't got a problem with you, but whatever.' We stanced (faced) up. I got grabbed up by a security guy. He (Giddens) should've got grabbed up, too. But he didn't.”

Creswell said he was then escorted out of the bar. At that point, no punches had been thrown.

As he waited outside for his female friend — his ride that night — Creswell said the parking lot began to fill with patrons leaving the bar. Creswell said he was standing alone outside the main glass door when he noticed Giddens coming around the corner of the club.

Flores, who had spent the previous few hours in the bar, was about to get into his car near the front door when he saw Giddens rounding the corner from the back of the bar. Flores looked at Creswell and sensed that trouble was brewing.

“To me, it looked (like Creswell) was standing there waiting on whoever brought him to come out,” the 34-year-old Topeka man said. “When Giddens and those guys came out, (Creswell) acted like he was trying to blend into the scenery a little bit after being noticed.”

After a night of shooting pool at Astros, a bar a few miles away, Marcus Knight and Preston Patterson pulled into the parking lot at the Moon Bar.

When Knight spotted Giddens, a casual acquaintance from the Lawrence night scene, he said it was obvious to him too that something was about to go down.

“I didn't even know if it was (Giddens) at first, because he was all mad and cussing,” Knight said. “I was like, ‘Damn, what's wrong with that dude?' ”

Flores said Giddens stopped about 20 feet from Creswell and began screaming in his direction. Both Flores and Creswell said Giddens repeatedly yelled, “You got a problem?” and “Do you know who I am?”

At this point, Creswell said he phoned his female friend — who was still inside the bar — and asked her to hurry outside so they could leave.

“I called her and said, ‘They kicked me out. You need to get out here and get me somewhere. They're about to jump me.' ” he said. “So she brings me a knife.” According to Creswell, she then went back inside.

Creswell said he began tinkering with his cell phone, trying to avoid eye contact with Giddens. Still, he said he could hear Giddens as he continued to yell in his direction.

“He had a (lot of people) there with him,” Creswell said. “He said, ‘You got a problem with me? Do you have a problem with me?' I just kept looking at my phone.”

Creswell and two witnesses said Giddens then approached Creswell and punched him in the face.

“Giddens was the first one in,” Flores said. “When he ran by my car, people were yelling, ‘Giddens, Giddens, get back, get back.' He ran right at the dude and started hitting him. The next thing I know, five or six other dudes were right on him.”

Standing nearby, Patterson and Knight said they were caught up in the fight. Almost immediately after Giddens' first punch, Creswell said he lowered his head, brandished the knife and began swinging it wildly into the crowd. Creswell said he didn't know who he was stabbing.

Knight said he was the first one slashed by the knife. He estimated that at least 10 persons were taking shots at Creswell. Later, Knight blamed Giddens for starting the brawl.

“I'm mad at (him) right now,” said Knight, 29, of Lawrence. “It was his fight, and all the rest of us got cut. I can't be mad at the dude (Creswell). If 10 to 12 (men) rushed me, … hey, I would've pulled a knife, too.”

***

The fight, according to Creswell, lasted less than a minute. But it was a furious minute. Several witnesses said Creswell was beaten by more than fists and feet.

“They were hitting him with bricks and all kinds of foreign objects,” Flores said. “And they were doing it from (close) range. There was blood all over him. It was a total annihilation. I was really disappointed.”

Topeka resident Jason Blakemore, 32, also witnessed the fight. Blakemore said he saw Giddens back away from the fight. Then Blakemore heard someone yell, “Giddens is cut.”

“But that didn't stop everyone from beating on (Creswell),” Blakemore said. “It was wrong what they did to him. Hell, they were throwing bricks.”

Knight said he saw someone charge at Creswell with a large, cylindrical ash tray. Nash said bottles were used as well. Creswell eventually dropped to his knees.

“Basically, whoever could get to him was throwing a punch,” Knight said. “For me, it was wrong place, wrong time. But I understand why (Creswell) did it. If it would've been me, … I'd fight five (guys) at once with my fists. But 10? I probably would've pulled something out, too. Plus, he was a little guy.”

Creswell is 5 feet 9 inches tall, and weighs 150 pounds. Giddens is 6-foot-5 and 200 pounds, and Nash is 6-foot-7 and 210 pounds. Blakemore and Flores said Giles, 6-foot-10 and 240 pounds, also took part in the altercation.

After the final blow was thrown, Creswell said he dropped the knife and attempted to re-enter the club through the front door. When he discovered it was locked, he ran to the back entrance.

“I remember looking up as I was getting in the car, and there were still 10-12 dudes chasing him around the building,” Knight said. “He was running, and there was an entourage of dudes running behind him.”

Creswell said he walked through the back entrance and requested medical help, but he said the club's bouncer threw him back out. Creswell said Ruiz then came outside, grabbed him and told him to start walking. He said Ruiz told him that Creswell's female friend, who was still inside, would come pick him up.

Reached Thursday, Ruiz said he did not recall seeing Creswell after he was ejected from the bar.

A week after the incident, Flores said he remained stunned.

“I'm still astonished by the brutality of it all,” he said. “Those boys need to step up and be men.”

***

Creswell was one of two injured persons still at the scene when police arrived at 2:22 a.m. He was taken to Lawrence Memorial Hospital, where he received 12 staples to close a gash on the side of his head.

A female friend took Giddens to the hospital. Patterson drove himself and Knight.

Patterson, 27, of Lawrence, was hospitalized for seven days because of injuries to his small intestines. Knight was hospitalized for three days with a 12-inch cut that stretched across his left rib cage and stomach.

Neither man said they bore any ill-will toward Creswell. Patterson agreed that Creswell had acted in self-defense.

“He was just doing what he had to do to stay alive,” Patterson said from his hospital room Wednesday night, shortly before he was released. “I just wish he had used more common sense, because I wasn't the one trying to get at him. I'm more mad at myself (than anything).”

Patterson declined to discuss specifics of the fight or his role in it. He said his initial intent was to protect Giddens so that he wouldn't “throw away his basketball career.”

Creswell was treated for head injuries at Lawrence Memorial Hospital the morning of the incident. After he was released, he was transferred to the Shawnee County Jail in Topeka on an outstanding Topeka Municipal Court warrant involving a previous charge. He posted bond Saturday and was released.

Like Creswell, Patterson and Knight are convicted felons.

In 1996, Knight was convicted of attempted second-degree murder and criminal possession of a firearm. He was in and out of various correctional facilities from November 1996 to August 2004, when he was paroled. His sentence expired in November.

“I didn't show up there that night looking for trouble,” said Knight, a barber in Lawrence. “I'm not out toting guns and causing trouble like I used to. I don't need to do those things. My life is good as hell now. I'm a pretty good guy. The penitentiary taught me something.”

Patterson was convicted of aggravated burglary in May 1999. He has been in and out of various correctional facilities since 1996, when he was convicted of robbery. He is currently on parole.

Creswell was convicted in 2001 of possession with intent to distribute drugs. In 2002, he was convicted of aggravated burglary.

Giddens also encountered legal trouble. He was a high school senior when he was arrested on charges of attempted theft in December 2002. Giddens and two others allegedly tried to steal nearly $4,000 worth of electronics equipment from an Oklahoma City Wal-Mart by having an employee disable the security tabs as she checked the items.

He eventually entered into a diversion agreement and has not had legal issues since arriving at KU in the summer of 2003.

The Star's Wright Thompson contributed to this report.

To reach Jason King, call (816) 234-4386 or send e-mail to jking@kcstar.com.

To reach Jason Whitlock, call (816) 234-4869 or send e-mail to jwhitlock@kcstar.com

[Lzen]

2 key things here stand out to me.

First, I think everyone should keep this quote in mind before passing judgement:

“If there was a clear cut who started it, who's the victim and who's the suspect, then someone would have been charged the minute it happened,” Cobb said. “Everybody that was involved in it has a different version of how it started.”

Second, some of the KU haters want to believe the witnesses Whitlock's and King's articles. But I think we should keep in mind that all those witnesses are convicted felons. I'm sorry, but something seems fishy here. They make it sound like Creswell was just minding his own business. I have a hard time believing that considering his extensive criminal background.

As for Giddens, it wouldn't surprise me at this point to learn that he was just as guilty. But I'm not about to hang him up until all the facts are laid out. Right now, it sounds like a he said/she said type thing.

[siberian khatru]

It's pretty clear that Lawrence needs to institute prohibition and close down all those damned bars.

The hell with that. Let's just burn it down again.

[ROYC75]

To harp on something like this is sad. Every major university has issues in some way or another. The university is only as good as the students alow them to be.

With this being said, I hope the KU staff see's this and bids JR good bye, KU does not need this type of PR.

It's an embarrasment, one that no college wants.

[teedubya]

congratulations J.R. Clankens... you are officially ****ed. Plus, since you ganked from Wal-Mart, your prospective employer list has been severely whittled down.

Get this cancer off the team... "You KNOW WHO I AM? I used to be J.R. Giddens."

[Eleazar]

Second, some of the KU haters want to believe the witnesses Whitlock's and King's articles. But I think we should keep in mind that all those witnesses are convicted felons. I'm sorry, but something seems fishy here. They make it sound like Creswell was just minding his own business. I have a hard time believing that considering his extensive criminal background.

Well, being a KU hater I should clarify :p

It doesn't sound to me like we truly know the whole story, but even just from what the witnesses say - 10 people jumping one person - sounds like we still have enough to make a pretty OK judgement.

You can probably imagine what happened though, maybe one of them just looked at the other wrong. The guy that got jumped had a chance to back down, but didn't. Giddens didn't have to roll outside looking for him with his boys. Both sides could have reasonably prevented it.

But I mean, say what you will, I doubt if this one guy was looking for a fight against 10 guys, several of whom are of the D1 basketball player size. No matter how big of a convicted felon hardass you consider yourself to be, those are odds that you don't have a prayer of overcoming. I don't really see this guy starting it in that situation.

[Rain Man]

I agree with Bobchief on the prohibition thing.

[teedubya]

for Giddens, hanging around multiple felons will not help him in life... you become who you hang around... It all relates to your Circle of Influence.

[Eleazar]

for Giddens, hanging around multiple felons will not help him in life... you become who you hang around... It all relates to your Circle of Influence.

Yeah, very true... sounds like he could use a coach or someone to get involved with his life and help him stay on the right track instead of waiting it out while he flushes his potential down the crapper.

[redbrian]

2 key things here stand out to me.

First, I think everyone should keep this quote in mind before passing judgement:



Second, some of the KU haters want to believe the witnesses Whitlock's and King's articles. But I think we should keep in mind that all those witnesses are convicted felons. I'm sorry, but something seems fishy here. They make it sound like Creswell was just minding his own business. I have a hard time believing that considering his extensive criminal background.

As for Giddens, it wouldn't surprise me at this point to learn that he was just as guilty. But I'm not about to hang him up until all the facts are laid out. Right now, it sounds like a he said/she said type thing.

Not all of the witnesses are felons, this witness was not identified as such.

“Topeka resident Jason Blakemore, 32, also witnessed the fight. Blakemore said he saw Giddens back away from the fight. Then Blakemore heard someone yell, “Giddens is cut.”

“But that didn't stop everyone from beating on (Creswell),” Blakemore said. “It was wrong what they did to him. Hell, they were throwing bricks.””

[Skip Towne]

Boot Giddens. He shouldn't have even been there.

[jspchief]

It's pretty damning when two of the guys that got stabbed even admit it was done in self defense.

[eazyb81]

Giddens and Giles should be kicked off the team immediately.

Using bricks when it is 10 on 1? That is pathetic no matter who it is.

The KU program has gone to shit ever since Roy left, it is pretty funny.

[Brock]

Giddens clearly does not belong at KU. I wish they'd send him packing.

[Rain Man]

At this point, Creswell said he phoned his female friend — who was still inside the bar — and asked her to hurry outside so they could leave.

“I called her and said, ‘They kicked me out. You need to get out here and get me somewhere. They're about to jump me.' ” he said. “So she brings me a knife.” According to Creswell, she then went back inside.




I'd love to hear a transcript of this conversation.

Creswell: There are a bunch of enormous guys out here, and I think they're going to beat me up.

Girlfriend: But I'm having a good time.

Creswell: Seriously, they're coming toward me. We need to get out of here.

Girlfriend: How about if I just bring you a knife? I'm really hitting it off with a guy in here.

Creswell: I don't think we should see each other any more. But can you bring the knife anyway?

[teedubya]

I'd love to hear a transcript of this conversation.

Creswell: There are a bunch of enormous guys out here, and I think they're going to beat me up.

Girlfriend: But I'm having a good time.

Creswell: Seriously, they're coming toward me. We need to get out of here.

Girlfriend: How about if I just bring you a knife? I'm really hitting it off with a guy in here.

Creswell: I don't think we should see each other any more. But can you bring the knife anyway?

yeah, no shit... she should have recieved a courtesy brick to the grill for being a selfish gunt.

[redbrian]

I'd love to hear a transcript of this conversation.

Creswell: There are a bunch of enormous guys out here, and I think they're going to beat me up.

Girlfriend: But I'm having a good time.

Creswell: Seriously, they're coming toward me. We need to get out of here.

Girlfriend: How about if I just bring you a knife? I'm really hitting it off with a guy in here.

Creswell: I don't think we should see each other any more. But can you bring the knife anyway?

ROFL

A standup gal eh.

[eazyb81]

Will Self kick Giles off the team too?

I bet Roy is laughing his ass off today.

[redbrian]

Will Self kick Giles off the team too?

I bet Roy is laughing his ass off today.

No over at KU they use the five strike rule, before your placed on probation.

[ROYC75]

The only thing that is obivious and can be taken for merit is that Giddens and the other players should not have been at that bar or any bar. They are kids, kids I tell ya, that do not know how to avoid trouble.

Does Giddens have issues...... you bet. I'm somewhat suprised thatGiles was involved, BTA I can easily see why he was involved since being there.

Dole hit the spot about the bars, but that is unlikely to happen. Best thing the univerity can do is ban all players from any bar.... any bar, even then a player will do wahat they want. The bars should help the university out and keep the players out.

Some one mentioned that the program is going down hill since ole Roy has left ? One can easily point the finger at that...... Self had no player issues at IU, it could be said that the players he is recruiting have issues..... Maybe....but Giddens was a Roy boy player. When you recruit talented players with baggage, you get the trash with them.The school thinks they can babysit them enought to keep it in check,in reality, you can't.

This is an ugly mess that will only get worst before it is finally laid to rest.

For the heckling MUrons...... what's worst, a corrupted kid or corrupted UNIVERSITY OFFICIALS ?

Bottom line..... who cares, it's ugly, right.

[teedubya]

Will Self kick Giles off the team too?

I bet Roy is laughing his ass off today.

No, Roy is trying to get Dean Juice off of his coat jacket.

[eazyb81]

No, Roy is trying to get Dean Juice off of his coat jacket.

Joke all you want, but this kind of crap didn't happen under Roy's watch.

KU is quickly becoming Cincinnatti West. :)

[teedubya]

Joke all you want, but this kind of crap didn't happen under Roy's watch.

KU is quickly becoming Cincinnatti West. :)

chuckle it up all you want... MU still sucks monkey balls.

[redbrian]

“He’s a member of a street gang, The Bloods. He has “M.O.B.” tattooed across the top of his chest.”

You know I didn’t know that the Bloods was an equal opportunity employer, very progressive of them don’t you think.

But man does it put this stupid white boy in a pickle when he goes to the big house on his next visit. Not only will the other gangs be out to stomp him but the Arian Nation I’m sure won’t be looking too kindly at him.

To bad this kid has already bred, he is a poster child for forced sterilization.

[eazyb81]

chuckle it up all you want... MU still sucks monkey balls.

KU bball program is going through Huggins-like drama, and KU fans still are concerned with Mizzou.....Classic! ROFL

Does 72-68 mean anything to you? :p

[Iowanian]

what I want to know, regardless of who plays for whatever team...........is why the entorage of a 6'10" 200lb+ guy, feel the need to dogpile a 150lb white kid.

If Giddens is so damn tough, he should have walked up and had the fight...alone.

Punk Bitches, all of them. If you can't have a fair, one on one fight with a kid half your size, with no one backing him up...You are a c@nt. period.

If this kid is a legit "gansta"....I'm wondering how long until his boys light some of them involved up?

[Braincase]

I'm not going to hide or duck the problems. KU has a serious issue, and part of this is still fallout from the coaching transition. No excuses, and I sure as hell and going to run off and hide like some puss. KU has a problem, and it needs to be fixed, suspended or expelled.

[eazyb81]

what I want to know, regardless of who plays for whatever team...........is why the entorage of a 6'10" 200lb+ guy, feel the need to dogpile a 150lb white kid.

If Giddens is so damn tough, he should have walked up and had the fight...alone.

Punk Bitches, all of them. If you can't have a fair, one on one fight with a kid half your size, with no one backing him up...You are a c@nt. period.

Not only that, but they felt like they had to use bricks and bottles to beat the kid down. This is known as felonious assault, if not attempted murder, and is serious enough that everyone involved could go to prison. In the eyes of the law, everyone involved in the beatdown is guilty.

[Brock]

KU bball program is going through Huggins-like drama, and KU fans still are concerned with Mizzou.....Classic! ROFL


Uh..what? How is this "Huggins-like"?

[Mr. Kotter]

Will Self kick Giles off the team too?

I bet Roy is laughing his ass off today.

Only a true idiot would laugh at any of this. Roy is anything but an idiot.

[the Talking Can]

Joke all you want, but this kind of crap didn't happen under Roy's watch.

KU is quickly becoming Cincinnatti West. :)

Roy recruited Giddens.

I hope he's gone by the end of the day.

[Mr. Kotter]

Roy recruited Giddens.

I hope he's gone by the end of the day.

So much for "due process" and hearing both sides....eh?

[teedubya]

Regardless this is a shitty situation... a SHITUATION, if you will.

[eazyb81]

Uh..what? How is this "Huggins-like"?

Uh....how is it not? Are you not familiar with the Cincinnatti basketball program?

If Self does not kick Giddens and Giles off the team (which I think he will), he will be viewed as the Huggins of the west.

[the Talking Can]

So much for "due process" and hearing both sides....eh?

my "sources" are telling me he's responsible...and nither side of a knife fight is compelling....I'm not interested in the Ricky Clemons rules at KU....one knife fight is enough....

[Mr. Kotter]

Uh....how is it not? Are you not familiar with the Cincinnatti basketball program?

If Self does not kick Giddens and Giles off the team (which I think he will), he will be viewed as the Huggins of the west.

Wow....I hadn't realized all of the facts, and all of the evidence had been weighed and considered yet. If things are, as Whitlock suggests....yeah, Self is in a tough spot.

However, there is another side to the story that has yet to be heard. You remember the process all too well, as a Mizzou fan....don't you? :hmmm:

[the Talking Can]

Uh....how is it not? Are you not familiar with the Cincinnatti basketball program?

If Self does not kick Giddens and Giles off the team (which I think he will), he will be viewed as the Huggins of the west.

you can spot MU fans a mile away....all we need is reddrain and this thread is complete.....ly f'in stupid...

[Mr. Kotter]

my "sources" are telling me he's responsible...and nither side of a knife fight is compelling....I'm not interested in the Ricky Clemons rules at KU....one knife fight is enough....

Giddens pulled a knife too? Guess I hadn't heard that.... :hmmm:

[Brock]

Uh....how is it not? Are you not familiar with the Cincinnatti basketball program?

If Self does not kick Giddens and Giles off the team (which I think he will), he will be viewed as the Huggins of the west.

Yeah, okay. I could see how you could compare a coach who has not had a player graduate in 10 years with a coach who has been at Kansas for a couple of years. :rolleyes:

[eazyb81]

Wow....I hadn't realized all of the facts, and all of the evidence had been weighed and considered yet. If things are, as Whitlock suggests....yeah, Self is in a tough spot.

However, there is another side to the story that has yet to be heard. You remember the process all too well, as a Mizzou fan....don't you? :hmmm:

So are you suggesting that all of this is a lie? Did the kid beat himself up to bring down the KU bball program? I'm not sure what you're trying to get at....

810 has already reported that Giddens has been kicked off the team, so there is obviously some basis to the reports.

[Eleazar]

Uh....how is it not? Are you not familiar with the Cincinnatti basketball program?

If Self does not kick Giddens and Giles off the team (which I think he will), he will be viewed as the Huggins of the west.

Got to agree with that.

I hope that, for the sake of the conference and for the credibility of a program that (even though I hate it) is one of the most storied programs in the sport, they won't pooh-pooh this.

I hate the NBA for this same reason. In college ball, at least there is usually less tolorance for being a thug and the players are expected to ahere to some kind of basic standards. I mean, how can you have multiple players on your team pretty much lynching some guy outside a bar? I hope that Self doesn't decide to look the other way.

[Mr. Kotter]

So are you suggesting that all of this is a lie? Did the kid beat himself up to bring down the KU bball program? I'm not sure what you're trying to get at....

810 has already reported that Giddens has been kicked off the team, so there is obviously some basis to the reports.

All I'm sayin' is any conclusive "take" on this situation is clearly premature at this time....as for what 810 is reporting, IF true....then the process is clearly further along than it was 24 hrs ago.

Time will tell. The "facts" are not yet in though, officially.

[Lzen]

I'm sorry, I thought we were still in a country where one is innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way around. If the facts come out and Giddens is proven to be guilty, bye bye JR. Or Giles for that matter. But lets at least wait until the investigation is over before making judgements.

And yes, this does look very bad for the program. But I think they will handle it properly. For evidence, just take a look at the John Randle story. He did not get 5 strikes as a certain ignorant MUron suggested.

[jspchief]

I'm sorry, I thought we were still in a country where one is innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way around. If the facts come out and Giddens is proven to be guilty, bye bye JR. Or Giles for that matter. But lets at least wait until the investigation is over before making judgements.

And yes, this does look very bad for the program. But I think they will handle it properly. For evidence, just take a look at the John Randle story. He did not get 5 strikes as a certain ignorant MUron suggested.Innocent until proven guilty "in a court of law". That doesn't necessarily mean in the court of public opinion. Nor does it have anything to do with a college's ability to impart their own punishments based on their own opinion of what happened.

The fact that two of the guys that got stabbed are defending the guy that stabbed them says enough for me.

[patteeu]

I agree with Bobchief on the prohibition thing.

I agree with Siberian on the burn it down again thing.

[patteeu]

At least Giddens is no Ray Lewis. He doesn't let his posse do his killing for him, he gets right in the mix. Rock Chalk He Stabbed My Sock.

[bringbackmarty]

Just look at the physical matchup, 5'9" 150# vs 6'5", 200#, 6'10" 240, 6'7" 210. plus seven other people. two guys who were stabbed siding with the stabber.
K.U. Basketball is a disgrace. They should have been real men, and walked away if the lil' blood was bothering them. Makes you appreciate some of the other progams out there. Duke, Gonzaga, Carolina, Wake, Maryland, even Uconn, and Umass. No problems like the ones at K.U., and M.U. Actually I do remember something with Camby a while back...

[KC Kings]

I am a KU hater, but I find this story hard to believe.

1. Do you mean to tell me that 12 black men beat up a small white kid and none of the black guys got arrested? JR Giddens is no Drew Gooden, and his place on the team would not have saved him. Cops love to arrest black guys, especialy at night, and would not have passed this opportunity up.

2. He got 6 staples on his head. That accounts for the oversized ash tray to the head. What are the rest of his injuries? Ten to twelve black guys including multiple athletes, multiple felons, and multiple guys close to 7 feet tall beat, kick, and stone with bricks a skinny white kid, and the only injury worth mentioning is one head wound?

3. Why didn't this guy run. I can see not running when they first walked out because maybe there was more than one skinny white Blood in there and won't recognize you. The fact that he stayed there after they recognized him and started talking trash to me proves that he got what he deserved. He call the girl inside so he knew what was going to happen. If he was smart he would have been running his little white ass off, and been breathing too hard to be able to talk on phone.

[Eleazar]

1. Do you mean to tell me that 12 black men beat up a small white kid and none of the black guys got arrested? JR Giddens is no Drew Gooden, and his place on the team would not have saved him. Cops love to arrest black guys, especialy at night, and would not have passed this opportunity up.

2. He got 6 staples on his head. That accounts for the oversized ash tray to the head. What are the rest of his injuries? Ten to twelve black guys including multiple athletes, multiple felons, and multiple guys close to 7 feet tall beat, kick, and stone with bricks a skinny white kid, and the only injury worth mentioning is one head wound?

3. Why didn't this guy run. I can see not running when they first walked out because maybe there was more than one skinny white Blood in there and won't recognize you. The fact that he stayed there after they recognized him and started talking trash to me proves that he got what he deserved. He call the girl inside so he knew what was going to happen. If he was smart he would have been running his little white ass off, and been breathing too hard to be able to talk on phone.

1. I don't even know where to start with this. So, if the black guys had done anything wrong then they would have got arrested because they are black. No matter that there was no mention of cops ever being called, or anything like that. Racist cops just have black-dude radar I guess, and show up to arrest them as soon as the sun goes down like vampires.

2. Ok, so staples can only come from big ashtrays and not from bricks, bottles, or other objects. Obviously this Jason Whitlock column was intended to specifically detail all the injures in exacting detail. The fact that the article mentions no other injuries means they don't exist.

3. Neverminding the fact that the guy DID run as the article says they were chasing him around the building while he was trying to get back inside, is it really that hard to understand why a scrawny guy like this might not think he would be able to outrun D1 athletes? Do you not understand why he might have been safer in the bar where there is apparently security? Or why instead of walking down the street to get jumped a few feet away instead of wher e he stood he might want to get the girl and her car to take him away?

Sheezus :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[KC Kings]

1. I don't even know where to start with this. So, if the black guys had done anything wrong then they would have got arrested because they are black. No matter that there was no mention of cops ever being called, or anything like that. Racist cops just have black-dude radar I guess, and show up to arrest them as soon as the sun goes down like vampires.

2. Ok, so staples can only come from big ashtrays and not from bricks, bottles, or other objects. Obviously this Jason Whitlock column was intended to specifically detail all the injures in exacting detail. The fact that the article mentions no other injuries means they don't exist.

3. Neverminding the fact that the guy DID run as the article says they were chasing him around the building while he was trying to get back inside, is it really that hard to understand why a scrawny guy like this might not think he would be able to outrun D1 athletes? Do you not understand why he might have been safer in the bar where there is apparently security? Or why instead of walking down the street to get jumped a few feet away instead of wher e he stood he might want to get the girl and her car to take him away?

Sheezus :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

1. Read the article. "Creswell was one of two injured persons still at the scene when police arrived at 2:22 a.m. He was taken to Lawrence Memorial Hospital, where he received 12 staples to close a gash on the side of his head." How did they know to show up if they weren't called?

And if you don't think some cops have "black guy radar", you may want make a poll out of it and see what the fellow Planeteers think.

2. It have been the ashtray or a bottle or a brick. The point is, I have seen guys get jumped by high school kids with no weapons, not athletes with bottles, bricks, and ashtrays, and after 30-60 seconds of a beating they were not able to get off the ground, let alone run.

Read the article. "After the final blow was thrown, Creswell said he dropped the knife and attempted to re-enter the club through the front door. When he discovered it was locked, he ran to the back entrance.
“I remember looking up as I was getting in the car, and there were still 10-12 dudes chasing him around the building,” Knight said. “He was running, and there was an entourage of dudes running behind him.”

So he is surrounded by 12 dudes, but is able to break free from the crowd, check a front , find it is locked, then outrun them to the back door.... after being beaten, kicked, bludgeon with beer bottles, whacked with an ash tray, and stoned by bricks. This may happen in a Chuck Norris flick, but not in real life.

3. Read the article. "Flores said Giddens stopped about 20 feet from Creswell and began screaming in his direction. Both Flores and Creswell said Giddens repeatedly yelled, “You got a problem?” and “Do you know who I am?”
At this point, Creswell said he phoned his female friend — who was still inside the bar — and asked her to hurry outside so they could leave."

What the story should have said:
At this point, Creswell ran as fast as his pastey white legs could carry him - then, after hiding in a dumpster - phoned his female friend so they could leave."

Maybe I am being to critical because this story was co-written by Jason Whitlock, a sports reporter known to spin the truth and report one sided accounts for shock value, but this story does not add up.

[Skip Towne]

While I don't consider the average gangbanger to be a Rhodes scholar, I'm guessing at least one member of their group might speak up about having second thoughts further escalation of an already highly publicly visible situation.
Or maybe not. They ARE gangsta's.

[Duck Dog]

“If there was a clear cut who started it, who's the victim and who's the suspect, then someone would have been charged the minute it happened,” Cobb said. “Everybody that was involved in it has a different version of how it started.”

BS. With all the witnesses they have and two of the guys who got cut say Giddons started it. this is team politics.

I'm a KU fan but f^&K JR Giddons. It is BS and an embarrassment that KU has actually gotten to the point where we have thugs in Lawrence.


Thumbs down!

[KCWolfman]

Damned KU thugs.

Skip hates that kind of crap, don't you?

[Duck Dog]

I am a KU hater, but I find this story hard to believe.

1. Do you mean to tell me that 12 black men beat up a small white kid and none of the black guys got arrested? JR Giddens is no Drew Gooden, and his place on the team would not have saved him. Cops love to arrest black guys, especialy at night, and would not have passed this opportunity up.

2. He got 6 staples on his head. That accounts for the oversized ash tray to the head. What are the rest of his injuries? Ten to twelve black guys including multiple athletes, multiple felons, and multiple guys close to 7 feet tall beat, kick, and stone with bricks a skinny white kid, and the only injury worth mentioning is one head wound?

3. Why didn't this guy run. I can see not running when they first walked out because maybe there was more than one skinny white Blood in there and won't recognize you. The fact that he stayed there after they recognized him and started talking trash to me proves that he got what he deserved. He call the girl inside so he knew what was going to happen. If he was smart he would have been running his little white ass off, and been breathing too hard to be able to talk on phone.


Damn dude, it was a bad enough brawl that he had to cut 3 people just to survive. And BS on the cops doing anything to a local golden boy. KU BB players aren't your average black dudes.

[KCWolfman]

Joke all you want, but this kind of crap didn't happen under Roy's watch.

KU is quickly becoming Cincinnatti West. :)
Giddens is Roy's recruit.

And Lester Earle was worse scum than Giddens.

[Rain Man]

If this guy really wants to cause problems for the basketball players, he'll report to the newspapers that he gave them money.

[KC Kings]

In tomorrows article Whitlock is going to release the transcript of a phone conversation between J.R. and Gwen Perkins.

J.R.: I got cut.
G.P: Were you talking to his girl? I told you to get your own girl, and I aint talking about no about no Delta Delta Delta girls…I'm talking about Delta Sigma Theta."
J.R.: So after he cut me I pretended like it was the NCAA tourny and started throwing bricks.
G.P.: I bet that cracker was shakin'! You seen Head of State? It's gooood!

[Skip Towne]

Damned KU thugs.

Skip hates that kind of crap, don't you?
Yeah, I do. I hope they dump Giddens and they surely will.

[Skip Towne]

Giddens is Roy's recruit.

And Lester Earle was worse scum than Giddens.
There was an even worse one in the 60's but I can't recall his name. He was from Hutchinson or Hutch Juco. He was ejected from a game for "returning the ball to the ref with a bit too much velocity".

[KCWolfman]

There was an even worse one in the 60's but I can't recall his name. He was from Hutchinson or Hutch Juco. He was ejected from a game for "returning the ball to the ref with a bit too much velocity".
LMAO

[Eleazar]

Damn dude, it was a bad enough brawl that he had to cut 3 people just to survive. And BS on the cops doing anything to a local golden boy. KU BB players aren't your average black dudes.

What do you mean? That racist police force is always out to get black dudes. Especially KU basketball players. The Lawrence cops are always gunning for those KU basketball players, man they got it rough.

[Rain Man]

There was an even worse one in the 60's but I can't recall his name. He was from Hutchinson or Hutch Juco. He was ejected from a game for "returning the ball to the ref with a bit too much velocity".


This has nothing to do with KU or MU (that I know of), but I vaguely recall reading or hearing a story once about a basketball player who was quite dumb. At one point, he supposedly forgot he had a game that night, didn't show up, wandered by the arena, bought a ticket, and ended up watching part or all of the game from the stands. Does anyone else remember that? Is it true or is it hooey?

[duncan_idaho]

"You got a problem? Do you know who I am?"

Maybe if he'd "popped" the front of his shirt out and swaggered towards him, Creswell would have known who he was.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Skip Towne]

There was an even worse one in the 60's but I can't recall his name. He was from Hutchinson or Hutch Juco. He was ejected from a game for "returning the ball to the ref with a bit too much velocity".
I remembered his name: Paul Stovall. I don't remember how long he lasted though.

[KCWolfman]

"You got a problem? Do you know who I am?"



Aren't you the guy that couldn't hit 15 shots in a row and failed your team to Dartmouth, Cornell, or someone like that?

[Braincase]

Giddens is Roy's recruit.

And Lester Earle was worse scum than Giddens.

Russ,

Talked with a buddy of mine, played for Indiana in '87. We talked it over with a Lawrence PD Officer (all of our kids play softball together). My bud just dropped his head and said , "No way, no freakin' way.", saying that if one of Knight's player got into trouble like this, he's be gone before the newspapers even got wind of it.

[KCWolfman]

Russ,

Talked with a buddy of mine, played for Indiana in '87. We talked it over with a Lawrence PD Officer (all of our kids play softball together). My bud just dropped his head and said , "No way, no freakin' way.", saying that if one of Knight's player got into trouble like this, he's be gone before the newspapers even got wind of it.
You know I was having some fun due to the constant BK bashing here.

And I am betting if it were Roy in charge of your team today, he would be gone. I can't blame Self if he keeps him as his position is not fully established, but I think it would be a poor move not to reclaim Giddens position for a more worthy player.