I don't understand how this could happen...

[T-post Tom]

Apologies in advance if this is a repost. If not, I'm sure most of you have heard the story. Does the arrogance of a few scientists supercede our national safety? These idiots deserve the nuthooks for pursuing this publication. I'm an advocate of free speech, but this goes way beyond the old analogy of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. God help us...





Milk-threat study issued over objections
Controversial report about supply vulnerabilities to be published
From Jeanne Meserve
CNN Washington Bureau
Tuesday, June 28, 2005; Posted: 5:00 p.m. EDT (21:00 GMT)

(CNN) -- The National Academy of Sciences is proceeding with publication of a study outlining how terrorists could contaminate the U.S. milk supply with botulism -- despite complaints that the article is a "road map for terrorists."

The article theorizes that hundreds of thousands of people could be poisoned if terrorists exploited vulnerabilities in milk processing.

It includes information on milk pasteurization, the dose of botulinum toxin for humans, the toxin's heat sensitivity and the capacities of the silos in which milk is stored.

The paper "is a road map for terrorists and publication is not in the interests of the United States," Department of Health and Human Services Assistant Secretary Stewart Simonson wrote in a May letter to Dr. Bruce Alberts, the science academy chief. (Full story)

But in an editorial accompanying the article, Alberts wrote that all of this information is "immediately accessible on the World Wide Web through a simple Google search."

"A terrorist who wants to do great damage will therefore not find anything in the article that is likely to increase his or her certainty concerning the minimum level of toxin to use," Alberts wrote.

Dr. Lawrence Wein, the Stanford University professor who wrote the article, praised the academy for acting "honorably and professionally."

He said the article offers concrete suggestions on how the security of the milk supply could be improved.

"There has been very little shift from food safety to food security," Wein said. "I hope this paper would help nudge the food industry in that direction ... and [the] government."

Wein told CNN he sent the paper to the Department of Health and Human Services for review in October but never heard back and assumed there were no objections to its content.

The paper appeared briefly May 30 on a password-protected area of the NAS Web site.

When Simonson wrote to the National Academy of Sciences in May asking it not to publish the study, Wein said he was "surprised."

HHS spokesman Mark Wolfson told CNN it was department officials' understanding that Wein would let them know if he submitted the study for publication; he didn't, so they never told him their thoughts.

After HHS raised objections, NAS postponed publication and met with government officials to discuss their concerns.

In his editorial, Alberts said the publication of terrorism-related analysis in open scientific literature can make the nation safer by contributing to the design of new defenses and preventing the federal government from overestimating or underestimating a particular threat.

"Protecting ourselves optimally against terrorist acts will require that both national and state governments, as well as the public, be cognizant of the real dangers," Alberts wrote.

Wolfson said Simonson "respects the academy's decision" to publish the study, but "he doesn't agree with it."

"Good and reasonable people will disagree, but he feels the academy is wrong and that the consequences of publishing could be dire," Wolfson said.

"And it will be HHS and not the academy that will have to deal with the consequences

"He still feels strongly that they shouldn't have published. But he can't stop them, so they are going to do it."

Other scientists have already raised questions about the scientific validity of Wein's study.

Alberts wrote, "This kind of give-and-take lies at the heart of scientific progress and is precisely why scientific analyses are made available in the open literature."

The National Academy of Sciences is a private, nonprofit society of scientists and engineers chartered by Congress to advise the government on science and technology.

[jspchief]

Great to see America's greatest minds are thinking up new ways for terrorists to attack us.

[Fat Elvis]

It wouldn't of caught any terrorists attentions if folks hadn't made such a big deal out of it.

[T-post Tom]

"It includes information on milk pasteurization, the dose of botulinum toxin for humans, the toxin's heat sensitivity and the capacities of the silos in which milk is stored...


It's not just foreign terrorists that we have to worry about. Plant a seed in just one nutjob's head and you've got a recipe for disaster. This should not be published.
:cuss: :banghead: :mad:

[Taco John]

I would think that if this is truly dangerous, the NSA will step in and do something about it.

[T-post Tom]

I would think that if this is truly dangerous, the NSA will step in and do something about it.


Publishing a recipe that could kill tens of thousands of people might not be dangerous? How could this not be dangerous? What's next: a build your own nuclear bomb video?

[Reaper16]

Good thing the only milk I consume is 100% natural Shatto Milk, made in Osborn, MO.

www.shattomilkcompany.com

http://www.shattomilkcompany.com/product/whole_halfgal.jpg

:thumb: :drool:

[unlurking]

Knowledge is power.

Be glad somebody took the trouble to do this research and make it public. How would you feel knowing the ONLY copy of this information were in the hands of terrorists. It's not like this information couldn't be compiled with a little creativity and google.

Burying your head in the sand about security just leaves you vulnerable. Forewarned is forearmed, or at least it would be with competent government.

Hmmm, how many more cliches can I fit in this post?

Anyway, if you couldn't already tell, I'm against the censorship of information. In fact, I'd like to see more of this kind of stuff being done. We can't patch the holes if we don't know they're there.

Edit:
Rep to ENDelt for doing what I was thinking! :D

[unlurking]

Hey now... here's a little interesting something I noticed when glancing at that AMA article again...
Yes, but they never would have figured out a way to use it if we censor American publications.

:rolleyes:

[jspchief]

Yes, but they never would have figured out a way to use it if we censor American publications.

:rolleyes:Agreed. It's much more of a deterrent to e-mail them a detailed blueprint of how to do it. :rolleyes:

Given the choice of having an American scientist design terrorist attacks, or a middle eastern zealot, I'll always prefer that the smart people do it.

[unlurking]

Great to see America's greatest minds are thinking up new ways for terrorists to attack us.
Well, we could just remain blissfully ignorant until the terrorist's think of these things themselves. Obviously the WoT will solve all of our problems, and we have no reason to secure our own borders or internal critical infrastructures.

[unlurking]

Ahh yes. We run into battle without planning for how the enemy may engage us. That's a good philosophy.

As ENDelt already pointed out, it only takes a few minutes of research to figure this out.

[jspchief]

I guess I see it as information that can be given to the proper authorities, without having to make it easily obtainable public knowledge, complete with step by step instructions.

[unlurking]

I guess I see it as information that can be given to the proper authorities, without having to make it easily obtainable public knowledge, complete with step by step instructions.
If I had any faith in "proper authorities" to do anything, maybe I'd agree with you. The only thing that seems to get things changed now adays is public pressure.

You know every dairy facility will be getting this forwarded to them in email, and maybe a few will find inexpesive mitigation methods and implement them. I have more hope of something like that happening than the government stepping in to help in any way besides stripping more of our rights away.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Good thing the only milk I consume is 100% natural Shatto Milk, made in Osborn, MO.

www.shattomilkcompany.com (http://www.shattomilkcompany.com)

http://www.shattomilkcompany.com/product/whole_halfgal.jpg

:thumb: :drool: I've seen that stuff in our little Eastgate grocery store. Do you have to pay a deposit or something?

[T-post Tom]

I guess I see it as information that can be given to the proper authorities, without having to make it easily obtainable public knowledge, complete with step by step instructions.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Granted, any idiot can "google" a subject and find enough information to write a high school term paper. But let's not forget that the Department of Health and Human Services has seen the report and we haven't. They have stated that they have very serious concerns on the publication of the report and its impact on public safety. As far as I know, the Department of Health and Human Services has no alterior motive on this issue.

I don't see the good of making this report available to everyone. I don't see the logic in "We can't patch the holes if we don't know they're there." Who's we? You got a mouse in your pocket? Are you the one that is going to "patch the holes?" Are your rights really being stripped away because you can't get the detailed recipe on poisoning the American food chain or building a nuke in your garage? Give me a break.
:rolleyes:

This publication fails the risk/reward test in the worst way. Those scientists should be privately working with the food industry on this issue.

[jspchief]

If I had any faith in "proper authorities" to do anything, maybe I'd agree with you. The only thing that seems to get things changed now adays is public pressure.

You know every dairy facility will be getting this forwarded to them in email, and maybe a few will find inexpesive mitigation methods and implement them. I have more hope of something like that happening than the government stepping in to help in any way besides stripping more of our rights away.I have more faith in our homeland security department to address these issues than in private businesses dipping into their profits to deter terrorists.

[Reaper16]

I've seen that stuff in our little Eastgate grocery store. Do you have to pay a deposit or something?

Yeah. You turn the bottles back in for the $1.50 back. I just return a bottle when I buy new ones.

It's worth it. Unquestionably the best milk you will ever taste. I haven't had any milk but Shatto milk for about a whole year now.

[BigMeatballDave]

A whole half?Yeah, I scratched my head on that, too. A bit of an oxy-moron...
:)

[BigMeatballDave]

Yeah. You turn the bottles back in for the $1.50 back. I just return a bottle when I buy new ones.

It's worth it. Unquestionably the best milk you will ever taste. I haven't had any milk but Shatto milk for about a whole year now.You sure its not just 2 whole half years?
:D

[Abba-Dabba]

Knowing someone that owns a trucking company that only carries milk, it would be mighty hard, damn near impossible to contaminate the milk supply. They test, retest, test, restest every shipment of milk at every transition point. Both the trucking company and the recipient. Refusal of a load of milk, which IIRC is about 6500 gallons at a time, is not a uncommon occurance.

[el borracho]

A whole half?
Half gallon of "whole" milk (as opposed to 2% or nonfat).

[unlurking]

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Granted, any idiot can "google" a subject and find enough information to write a high school term paper. But let's not forget that the Department of Health and Human Services has seen the report and we haven't. They have stated that they have very serious concerns on the publication of the report and its impact on public safety. As far as I know, the Department of Health and Human Services has no alterior motive on this issue.

I don't see the good of making this report available to everyone. I don't see the logic in "We can't patch the holes if we don't know they're there." Who's we? You got a mouse in your pocket? Are you the one that is going to "patch the holes?" Are your rights really being stripped away because you can't get the detailed recipe on poisoning the American food chain or building a nuke in your garage? Give me a break.
:rolleyes:

This publication fails the risk/reward test in the worst way. Those scientists should be privately working with the food industry on this issue.

Since when did the freedom of speech have to undergo a "risk/reward" test at all?!?!?! So you're saying China has it right with it's censorship programs?!?!

People have been complaining for years about the Anarchist cookbook stuff that's been going around. Before that, they were burning books by Mark Twain. You really want to go back to things times like that?

Regarding "we". "we" is ANYBODY. Whether it be the government or commercial entities. You expect them to be able to fix things they don't know about? As far as DHHS being concerned, maybe they're just worried they'll have to do something, like work.

But please no, let's go ahead and censor anyone who "scares" us from our happy little lives of safety. Hell, why stop there, let's go ahead and arrest these scientists for crimes against the state and have them executed as a lesson to other would be "information gatherers".

[unlurking]

I have more faith in our homeland security department to address these issues than in private businesses dipping into their profits to deter terrorists.
hahaha

Let me know when DHS passes a FISMA audit. I have zero faith in DHS at the moment.

[jspchief]

Let me know when DHS passes a FISMA audit. Will do. Let me know when private industy starts dipping into their own pockets to protect from an unlikely terrorist attack.

The notion that the milk industry is going to get this in an e-mail and make any legit security efforts on their own is a bit naive IMO.

As far as freedom of speech, I never said the government should stop this article from being published. I do however feel that the person who wrote it has a duty to his country to try and keep this info from getting into the wrong hands.

[homey]

Ultimately, this is like complaining about a news story that shows a weakness in our national security. That's the point of the story/study, to bring attention to it so something can be done.

[kc rush]

FYI - The FBI recently held a conference on this very subject here in KC. It was attended by law enforcement, health officials, and dairy suppliers among others.

This is obviously something that people in the industry are concerned about and they are taking precautions.

[keg in kc]

I knew there was a reason I quit drinking milk.

[Frazod]

As Dennis Miller says, you can turn this one over to THE DEPARTMENT OF SHIT TERRORISTS HAVEN'T THOUGHT OF YET.

Thanks, guys.

Now look for the price of milk to f#cking double - if nothing else, the industry was just provided with the perfect excuse to do just that - in the name of security, of course.

4321

[jspchief]

As Dennis Miller says, you can turn this one over to THE DEPARTMENT OF SHIT TERRORISTS HAVEN'T THOUGHT OF YET.

Thanks, guys.

Now look for the price of milk to f#cking double - if nothing else, the industry was just provided with the perfect excuse to do just that - in the name of security, of course.

4321Oh, but haven't you heard. The terrorists can figure this out anyway, so we might as well spoon feed it to them.

[Donger]

Somewhat disturbing. Almost as disturbing as the recently released scenario that showed terrorists how to absolutely destroy our economy by attacking our oil infrastructure.

[Dave Lane]

Publishing a recipe that could kill tens of thousands of people might not be dangerous? How could this not be dangerous? What's next: a build your own nuclear bomb video?

Thats been online for years. Yawn who cares? I can come up with 10 better plans with more details in the next 5 minutes. I think attacking our milk is not going to be a high priority to a terrorist.

Dave

[Dave Lane]

Somewhat disturbing. Almost as disturbing as the recently released scenario that showed terrorists how to absolutely destroy our economy by attacking our oil infrastructure.

This is my pick. A couple of well placed mortar rounds at refineries and bam our economy collapses like a paper bag.

Dave

[Donger]

Thats been online for years. Yawn who cares? I can come up with 10 better plans with more details in the next 5 minutes. I think attacking our milk is not going to be a high priority to a terrorist.

Dave

"Building" a nuclear weapon isn't that difficult. Getting weapons-grade, fissionable material still is, thankfully.

[Donger]

This is my pick. A couple of well placed mortar rounds at refineries and bam our economy collapses like a paper bag.

Dave

The scenario had crude going up to $120/barrel. It was significantly more detailed than a few mortar rounds cooking off some refineries, however.

[Dave Lane]

The scenario had crude going up to $120/barrel. It was significantly more detailed than a few mortar rounds cooking off some refineries, however.

I'm telling you take 3-4 refineries off line in the US for a couple of months with some well placed explosives, mortar or otherwise and hello $10 a gallon gas.

Dave

[Donger]

I'm telling you take 3-4 refineries off line in the US for a couple of months with some well placed explosives, mortar or otherwise and hello $10 a gallon gas.

Dave

The NSC disagrees. Even with the scenario they just gamed out, gasoline would 'only' reach $5/gallon.

[gblowfish]

Got Milk?

[Dave Lane]

The NSC disagrees. Even with the scenario they just gamed out, gasoline would 'only' reach $5/gallon.

Right and we'll be greeted in Iraq with flowers and dancing... :rolleyes:

Dave

[Dave Lane]

Is their report online? I'd like to read it. I think $5 gas is a given. It will happen in the next 12-18 months with fair certainty.

Dave

[Donger]

Is their report online? I'd like to read it. I think $5 gas is a given. It will happen in the next 12-18 months with fair certainty.

Dave

There's a synopsis here: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160551,00.html

How do you reach the $5 gasoline is a given conclusion? Based on what?

[Dave Lane]

This report is strictly for oil production which is not nearly as big a problem as refining capacity. You knock off 3-4 refineries of the 21 we have and the world as we know it is over.

Check on refinery capacity here in the US. ALL plants run 24/7 365 and barely can keep up with demand now. Lose 15% of this capacity and prices hit $10 a gallon the same day if not within an hour. Remember 9/12?

Dave

[Simplex3]

I have more faith in our homeland security department to address these issues than in private businesses dipping into their profits to deter terrorists.
If your assesment is correct then we're all dead. You think the govt is actually going to get something done? ROFL

Border Security: Wide open.
Reason: Hispanics vote, might make them mad if we close them.

Airline Security: Stupid.
Reason: If the terrorists put three muslim males on a plane the FTC's rules ensure that one will get by security with no bagage search.

Nuclear Power Reactors: Unsecured.
Hoover Damn, etc: Unsecured.
Major Bridges and Tunnels: Unsecured.

Yeah, I feel so comfortable now that the feds are in charge.

[Donger]

This report is strictly for oil production which is not nearly as big a problem as refining capacity. You knock off 3-4 refineries of the 21 we have and the world as we know it is over.

Check on refinery capacity here in the US. ALL plants run 24/7 365 and barely can keep up with demand now. Lose 15% of this capacity and prices hit $10 a gallon the same day if not within an hour. Remember 9/12?

Dave

We have 146 gasoline refineries in operation now, not 21. I'm not saying that knocking out 3 or 4 of them wouldn't cause prices to rise, but not from $2.20-ish to $10 as you assert.

[Dave Lane]

There's a synopsis here: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160551,00.html

How do you reach the $5 gasoline is a given conclusion? Based on what?

$5 gas will come, British Petroleum speculates with in 12 months I think more like 12-18 months. The real problem is the developing world. Demand in China as it continues to add infrastructure and automobiles is using a rapidly increasing amount of the worlds energy. Based on India and China alone estimates show consumption rapidly outstripping production.

Dave

[Donger]

$5 gas will come, British Petroleum speculates with in 12 months I think more like 12-18 months. The real problem is the developing world. Demand in China as it continues to add infrastructure and automobiles is using a rapidly increasing amount of the worlds energy. Based on India and China alone estimates show consumption rapidly outstripping production.

Dave

Do you know if this BP information is available to the public? I'd like to read it.

[Simplex3]

Will do. Let me know when private industy starts dipping into their own pockets to protect from an unlikely terrorist attack.

The notion that the milk industry is going to get this in an e-mail and make any legit security efforts on their own is a bit naive IMO.
Private industry absolutely would address the issue if the govt would stay the f**k out of it. Case in point:

http://www.indianalawblog.com/mt/archives/2004/04/000307.html

Creekstone Farms Premium Beef was going to test every single cow they processed for mad cow disease. Every damn one, not a sampling. What stopped them?

The USDA. Your beloved govt. FORBID them from doing it.

Keep thinking the govt. gives a s**t about you.

[Dave Lane]

We have 146 gasoline refineries in operation now, not 21. I'm not saying that knocking out 3 or 4 of them wouldn't cause prices to rise, but not from $2.20-ish to $10 as you assert.

Interesting I saw a article that said only 21 seperate gasoline refineries existed in the US and none built since 1976. I still think the panic would push prices as high as $10 initially with it dropping back to $5-7 a gallon later as the plants start to rebuild.

Dave

[Simplex3]

This is my pick. A couple of well placed mortar rounds at refineries and bam our economy collapses like a paper bag.

Dave
Yeah, but think of the environmental impact if we built new refineries.

[Dave Lane]

Do you know if this BP information is available to the public? I'd like to read it.

It was on CNN two weeks ago interesting article that really slammed China with its huge population and it increasingly voracious appetite for oil.

Dave

[Donger]

Interesting I saw a article that said only 21 seperate gasoline refineries existed in the US and none built since 1976. I still think the panic would push prices as high as $10 initially with it dropping back to $5-7 a gallon later as the plants start to rebuild.

Dave

None built since 1976 is correct. Here's the really scary part: in 1981, we had 325 in operation.

[Skip Towne]

Yeah, but think of the environmental impact if we built new refineries.
Build 'em in Mexico.

[whoman69]

When did we become the terrorists think tank? Who's to say they even thought of this or found that it wasn't as feasible as these people claim. Just because you can find out how to make a nuclear weapon on the internet doesn't make it possible to make one. But it seems foolhardy to give them ideas so they can stumble upon one that will work. It would be like Gunther going out before the game and say to the press he hopes the opposition doesn't try to run to a certain side because we may not be able to stop it.

[teedubya]

TPOST TOM deserves nuthooks for posting this here at the planet... everyone knows TerroristMeMeMe reads this board. Damn.

[Lzen]

Private industry absolutely would address the issue if the govt would stay the f**k out of it. Case in point:

http://www.indianalawblog.com/mt/archives/2004/04/000307.html

Creekstone Farms Premium Beef was going to test every single cow they processed for mad cow disease. Every damn one, not a sampling. What stopped them?

The USDA. Your beloved govt. FORBID them from doing it.

Keep thinking the govt. gives a s**t about you.

Hmm, is there more to the story here? Like say Creekstone Farms would've doubled or tripled their beef price? They could justify the price increase due to the mad cow scare. And is it really necessary to test every single cow? This kind of information is incomplete, IMO.

[go bo]

Knowing someone that owns a trucking company that only carries milk, it would be mighty hard, damn near impossible to contaminate the milk supply. They test, retest, test, restest every shipment of milk at every transition point. Both the trucking company and the recipient. Refusal of a load of milk, which IIRC is about 6500 gallons at a time, is not a uncommon occurance.just out of curiosity, do the tests include one that would identify miniscule quantities of botulism? or anthrax or aflac (or whatever that other one was)?

[Lzen]

Somewhat disturbing. Almost as disturbing as the recently released scenario that showed terrorists how to absolutely destroy our economy by attacking our oil infrastructure.

I recently saw a movie on FX called Oil Storm that dealt with this issue, as well. Quite an eye opener. That's some scary stuff right there. Which is why we really, really need to work on alternative energies. Or work much harder on finding alternatives and keep the oil companies from screwing with the research.

[go bo]

TPOST TOM deserves nuthooks for posting this here at the planet... everyone knows TerroristMeMeMe reads this board. Damn.you're right...

tpost is obviously a terrorist sympathizer... http://forums.evolutionm.net/images/smilies/icon13.gif http://forums.evolutionm.net/images/smilies/icon13.gif http://forums.evolutionm.net/images/smilies/icon13.gif

[go bo]

I recently saw a movie on FX called Oil Storm that dealt with this issue, as well. Quite an eye opener. That's some scary stuff right there. Which is why we really, really need to work on alternative energies. Or work much harder on finding alternatives and keep the oil companies from screwing with the research.if we keep on working on clean-burinng coal technologies, i think there's enough coal in the u.s. to produce enough energy to completely replace home heating oil, for example...

but we aren't there yet...

[go bo]

and the ever-popular but unpopular government mandated fuel economy standards, radically increased (30 mph in the city and 45 highway maybe?)

[whoman69]

and the ever-popular but unpopular government mandated fuel economy standards, radically increased (30 mph in the city and 45 highway maybe?)
Everytime the Republicans get in, they tank it. 32 years after the Arab embargo, there is still no plan to free us from dependence on foreign oil.