KU Cheats

[beavis]

I'm surpised this hasn't been posted yet...

Link (http://kuathletics.collegesports.com/genrel/071505aaq.html)

Enjoy. :p

[irishjayhawk]

I'd hardly call the Men's Basketball violations cheating, but knowning Roy let it happen doesn't fit very well.

I do have to respect that we, unlike Missouri, didn't wait for the NCAA to find out, we clean ourselves up.

[Braincase]

Any word regarding how much was "legally" funnelled to another Big 12 teams players through a billionaire kid that was on the team? I'd love to see a break down on how many times a couple of roomies had their hands out... but that's not really dishonest... is it?

[eazyb81]

But I thought KU had a squeaky clean program?

It looks like Slick Willie is continuing the KU's proud tradition of cheating in basketball.

ROFL

[the Talking Can]

way to go Roy:

http://kuathletics.collegesports.com/genrel/071505aan.html

MEN'S BASKETBALL
SELF-REPORT OF VIOLATIONS

VIOLATION 1

With the approval of then head men's basketball coach Roy Williams, at the completion of the 2000-01, 2001-02, 2002-03 men's basketball seasons, three representatives of the University's athletics interests (Dana Anderson, Joan Edwards and Bernard Morgan) provided gifts of cash and clothing to graduating men's basketball student-athletes and men's basketball student-athletes who had exhausted their eligibility, including XXX, XXX, XXX, XXX, XXX, XXX, XXX, XXX, XXX, XXX, XXX, XXX, XXX, XXX, XXX, XXX and XXX.

NCAA BYLAW 16.02

16.02.3 Extra Benefit
An extra benefit is any special arrangement by an institutional employee or a representative of the institution's athletics interests to provide a student-athlete or the student-athlete's relative or friend a benefit not expressly authorized by NCAA legislation. Receipt of a benefit by student-athletes or their relatives or friends is not a violation of NCAA legislation if it is demonstrated that the same benefit is generally available to the institution's students or their relatives or friends or to a particular segment of the student body (e.g., foreign students, minority students) determined on a basis unrelated to athletics ability.

NCAA BYLAW 16.12

16.12.2.1 GENERAL RULE
The student-athlete shall not receive any extra benefit. The term "extra benefit" refers to any special arrangement by an institutional employee or representative of the institution's athletics interests to provide the student-athlete or his or her relatives or friends with a benefit not expressly authorized by NCAA legislation.

16.12.2.3 Other Prohibited Benefits
An institutional employee or representative of the institution's athletics interests may not provide a student-athlete with extra benefits or services . . .

OVERVIEW

As a token of appreciation for their participation on the University's men's basketball team, some University supporters wanted to express their appreciation to team members who were either completing their eligibility or graduating from the University by providing them with nominal gifts, including cash or clothing. When the idea first came up, University representative Dana Anderson called and asked head men's basketball coach Roy Williams whether it would be permissible to give such a gift to the departing student-athletes. Williams reported that he checked with someone on the compliance staff and was told that it would be permissible because it would be similar to them receiving money for playing in barnstorming tours. Based on Williams' approval, Anderson, and then Morgan and Edwards, provided gifts to several departing men's basketball student-athletes.

CONCLUSION

The University's investigation, and the assessment of the credibility of information provided, revealed that violations of NCAA Bylaws 16.02 and 16.12 took place with respect to this issue.

REVIEW OF THE EVIDENCE

In early May 2004, several weeks after the conclusion of the 2003-04 men's basketball season, Director of Athletics Lew Perkins was visiting members of the men's basketball coaching staff near their offices. After some casual conversation with some members of the staff, Perkins walked near the men's basketball mail distribution area. The area includes mailboxes for members of the men's basketball coaching staff and the men's basketball student-athletes. As Perkins walked past the mail area, Joanie Stephens, secretary to head men's basketball coach Bill Self, was placing mail into the mailboxes when some of the mail she was holding dropped. Perkins and Stephens picked up the mail and Perkins noticed that some pieces of mail were addressed to XXX, XXX and XXX in care of Bill Self. Each of the pieces of mail had a return address for Mrs. Joan Edwards, a long-time friend and supporter of the program. Perkins asked Stephens if she knew what Mrs. Edwards was sending to the student-athletes; Stephens responded that she thought Mrs. Edwards provided graduation cards and small amounts of money to the graduating men's basketball student-athletes.

Perkins told Stephens that if Edwards was sending money to the student-athletes, it was a violation of NCAA regulations. As a precaution against XXX, XXX and XXX possibly receiving improper gifts, Perkins brought the mail to his office safe until he could hand-deliver it to the three student-athletes.

The next day Perkins informed Self of this incident. Self told Perkins that he had no knowledge of Mrs. Edwards sending graduation cards to the graduating student-athletes. Later that day Perkins saw XXX in the athletics complex and asked XXX to come to his office to collect his mail. Perkins explained to XXX why he had the mail and XXX came to Perkins' office. In Perkins' presence, XXX opened the letter; it was a graduation card and a $50 check made out to XXX. Perkins asked XXX if he knew Mrs. Edwards; XXX said no. Perkins again explained that if he accepted the check, it would be considered a violation of NCAA rules. XXX voluntarily gave the card and check to Perkins and said that he did not want to be involved in a violation of NCAA rules.

Perkins immediately contacted Terry Hines, the athletics compliance officer, and told him about the incident. Since there was an ongoing review of the athletics program being conducted at that time by Rick Evrard, Perkins and Hines reported the incident to Evrard.

Evrard reviewed the information over the next several weeks and then made contact with Edwards.

During the period of time that Evrard was investigating this information, Mrs. Edwards, an elderly woman, was having serious medical problems with her hearing, which required Evrard to communicate through Mrs. Edwards' son, R.A. Edwards. R.A. Edwards explained to Evrard that according to his mother, she started to provide small gifts to the men's basketball student-athletes after the 1988 men's basketball season. According to Edwards, his father (Mr. Edwards) passed away in December 1987, and the University's former head men's basketball coach Larry Brown dedicated that year and the season in memory of his father. Mr. Edwards had been a long-time supporter of the KU men's basketball program and had been a friend to Brown. According to R.A. Edwards, during the men's basketball season and after his father's death, the team wore black armbands in honor of his father. Edwards reported that his mother told him that in 1988, she sent small checks "maybe up to $100" to all of the men's basketball student-athletes who had completed their eligibility that year, thanking them for the contribution they made to the University. Edwards indicated that his mother gave the money to the student-athletes with the specific purpose of helping them continue their education or to start on a new job if they had graduated.

According to Mrs. Edwards, she had inquired about providing the small gifts to the graduating student-athletes and had received permission to provide the gifts. According to R.A. Edwards, he asked his mother if she had asked anyone for permission, and she said "that Bob knew, Bob Frederick knew about it, Coach Williams knew about it, people in the Williams' Fund, the basketball office, etc." Further, R.A. Edwards reported that Mrs. Edwards wrote the checks, sent them to the basketball office and they were distributed. Further, R.A. Edwards reported that his mother told him that "she got numerous thank you notes from different players over those years, a lot of them expressing their thanks and that they would apply these checks towards their education. The checks were in the range of $25 to $50 and maybe one or two cases a hundred dollars but no more."

Edwards reported that his mother made the decision about how much money she would send each year based on "how much she thought she could afford that year." Edwards reported that she gave the same amount each year to each of the departing student-athletes.

After Perkins learned about Mrs. Edwards' gifts to graduating men's basketball student-athletes, he asked Stephens if she knew of other supporters of the program who provided similar gifts. Stephens told Perkins that she believed Dana Anderson might have done so in the past. Perkins then reported that information to Evrard. Perkins facilitated an in-person meeting with Anderson, during which Evrard interviewed him about the provision of gifts. According to Anderson, who is a long-time supporter of the University's athletics program, he started giving small gifts to men's basketball student-athletes some time during the last five or six years.

Anderson reported that he is a 1959 graduate of the University and began his professional career in Topeka, Kansas, after graduating from the University. Anderson reported he has been a supporter of the athletics program since his graduation. According to Anderson, some time during the past several years, he had a conversation with then head men's basketball coach Roy Williams, asking Williams if it was permissible for him to provide a gift to graduating men's basketball student-athletes. Anderson reported that Williams told him he would check on it and get back to him. Anderson said that some time later, Williams told Anderson that it would be permissible to provide small gifts to any of the graduating men's basketball student-athletes.

Anderson reported that it was his understanding from coach Williams that so long as the student-athletes had exhausted their eligibility, a small gift would be permissible. Also, Anderson reported that when Perkins notified him of the potential problem, Anderson searched his files to see if he could find copies of the letters and checks that he had sent to those student-athletes who had exhausted their eligibility. Anderson reported that he provided approximately $300 to each of the student-athletes during the 2001-02 academic year and $400 to each of the student-athletes for the 2002-03 and 2003-04 academic years. Anderson indicated that he provided the gifts to the student-athletes only after he had received approval from Williams, and only for the purpose of helping the student-athletes during their first months in "the real world."

As this self-report was being prepared, another supporter of the men's basketball program, Bernard Morgan, called Terry Hines, the University's associate director of athletics for compliance, and asked if he could send gifts to the 2004-05 senior men's basketball student-athletes who had completed their eligibility or were going to graduate. Hines reported this information to Evrard, and Evrard interviewed Morgan several days later.

Morgan reported that approximately eight years ago, he contacted then head men's basketball coach Roy Williams to ask him whether he could provide gifts to graduating seniors or those student-athletes who had exhausted their eligibility. According to Morgan, Williams told him to contact the KU compliance officer to ask that question. Morgan reported that he called the compliance office and spoke to a woman he assumed was the director of compliance, but whose name he could not recall. Morgan reported that he asked the woman whether he could provide benefits to men's basketball student-athletes who had either graduated from the University or had exhausted eligibility that year. Morgan reported that he was told by the director of compliance (At that time, the director of compliance was Janelle Martin; however, Morgan did not recall that name even after being presented with it.) that no benefits could be provided to student-athletes while they were still enrolled in school and receiving institutional athletically related financial aid. Morgan reported that the compliance director also told him that he "can't do anything now" but when they finish their eligibility, and their last scholarship check from the University had cleared, they could be provided with gifts from representatives of the institution's athletics interests.

According to Morgan, during that first year, he provided a gift to XXX, XXX and XXX. Morgan reported that after the student-athletes had received their last financial aid check and after the last day of classes (stipulations that Morgan said the compliance director put on him), Morgan purchased for each of them a lifetime membership in the University's alumni association. Morgan could not recall the cost of the membership. (Currently, a lifetime membership costs $100.) Morgan also reported that he purchased for XXX a suit of clothes from Peter's Clothier's in Kansas City. Morgan reported that he could not recall the cost of the suit but estimated its value at approximately $400.

Morgan reported that he wanted to assist some of the graduating men's basketball student-athletes this year, so he called Hines to find out when he could provide a gift to them. After explaining NCAA regulations concerning the provision of benefits to student-athletes who have exhausted their eligibility, Morgan agreed that he would not do anything to jeopardize the University and would not provide any benefits to any of the student-athletes who have exhausted their eligibility.

Neither former compliance director Janelle Martin nor the former associate director of athletics for compliance Richard Konzem recalled ever having a conversation with Williams about the permissibility of a student-athlete who has exhausted his eligibility receiving gifts from a supporter of the program. According to Konzem, he believes that if asked that question now, he does not believe it is permissible, so his instinct tells him that he would have said no to the question if asked several years ago. Martin reported that she knows that you cannot provide benefits to student-athletes after the completion of their eligibility so if asked she would not say anything different. Both Martin and Konzem reported that at the very least, if asked about this issue, they would have called the NCAA membership services office or the Conference compliance person to learn if that arrangement would be permissible.

Former director of athletics Bob Frederick reported that he has no knowledge of either Anderson or Edwards providing gifts to men's basketball student-athletes as "graduation gifts." According to Frederick, Edwards came to him early in his tenure as the director of athletics at the University to ask if she could set up a scholarship fund for men's basketball student-athletes who had an interest in going on to graduate school. According to Frederick, Edwards asked if she could set up the scholarship but wanted to limit it to men's basketball student-athletes. According to Frederick, Edwards' son, R.A. Edwards, came and talked to him about the possibility of setting up such a scholarship at the request of his mother. According to Frederick, he told both Mrs. Edwards and R.A. Edwards that they could not do this because it would be a violation of NCAA legislation.

Roy Williams reported that during his 15 years at the University, he is certain that "there were at least two occasions when I was asked by an alum if they could send a gift to one of the youngsters who have graduated in appreciation for what they've done." Williams reported that his response to those requests were, "I don't want this to be any humongous check or anything like that if it's truly just a gift for graduation; every graduating senior gets graduation gifts." Williams indicated that he did not see anything wrong with that because their eligibility was already completed.

According to Williams, because he was not asked often by supporters of the program if they could provide these gifts, he "didn't feel like there was any... ground swell of, uh, a movement. I didn't feel that there was any campaign to try to get together and give our graduating seniors any gifts.

Williams stated that, "I honestly think that on both occasions, I ran it by the people at KU and said `alright now after the kids graduate is there anything that they have to continue to be aware of.'" Williams believed that there was a basis to allow this kind of gift. Williams reported that, "I remembered that in the ACC when I was an assistant in the ACC we had to take our player off scholarship after our seasons were over with because they were going to do the barnstorming thing, where kids will go out and play in you know, the small towns throughout the state and be paid for you know, the admissions. They'd split the gate with the...the local booster club for the high school"... Williams indicated that he thought that senior players would play conference all-star games against another conference's all-star team and the players would get some money for that competition.

Williams reported that, "I can't tell you that I checked with Richard Konzem. I can't tell you that I checked with Janelle Martin or Bob Frederick. But I know that I had some conversation just to make sure that it was alright. And again, I emphasize to the person (providing the gift) that you know, that I don't want this to be any humongous check for playing basketball...it is a graduation gift and it is something that doesn't, uh, you know, that, uh, that's not advertised. It's not talked about. It's not promised."

[Braincase]

But I thought KU had a squeaky clean program?

It looks like Slick Willie is continuing the KU's proud tradition of cheating in basketball.

ROFL

We just need to recruit members of the Walton family to play for KU, so he can aid other team members in financial crisis...that's not against NCAA rules, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "fair play".

[Pitt Gorilla]

We just need to recruit members of the Walton family to play for KU, so he can aid other team members in financial crisis...that's not against NCAA rules, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "fair play".
Obsess much?

[Braincase]

Obsess much?

I didn't start the thread.

[PastorMikH]

With all the stones thrown at MU for the Ricky Clemons allegations, this is rather interesting.

Hopefully the NCAA will be a bit fairer than KU and will impose sanctions on the team that commited the wrong doings.

[DJay23]

From what I understand, because of all of the ridiculous little pointless rules the NCAA has, it's hard not to commit some infraction at some point.

That being said, it behooves the University to have a compliance department to make sure all rules are followed, and when they are not, to draw the attention of the NCAA.

14 infractions by an entire athletic department seems like a small number, though I didn't read any of the report, I'm assuming there was nothing major that could draw probations.

[DJay23]

It looks like Slick Willie is continuing the KU's proud tradition of cheating in basketball.

ROFL
Please explain. I know nothing of a cheating tradition at KU.

And it would serve you to actually read the press release. There was one violation by the men's basketball program under ROY WILLIAMS, not Bill Self.

[DJay23]

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=119590

Looks like the football team had the most serious stuff.

This is all old, pre 2003. KU has placed itself on it's own probation.

KU releases internal investigation report
By Ryan Greene, Journal-World Sports Writer

Friday, July 15, 2005

The Kansas University athletics department today released its internal investigation reports submitted to the NCAA in June regarding rules violations in football and both men's and women's basketball. Of the 14 violations discovered, eight were linked to football, five to women's basketball and one to men's basketball, according to the report.



Chancellor's comments on KU NCAA report
Athletic director's comments on KU NCAA report
Woodling: Any KU violations likely null
General Issues (.pdf)
Football (.pdf)
Men's Basketball (.pdf)
Women's Basketball (.pdf)
Exhibit 1 (.pdf)
Exhibit 2 (.pdf)
Exhibit 3 (.pdf)



Chancellor Robert Hemenway placed the department under a two-year probationary period, but that punishment will not include television or postseason bans, according to a university press relsease.

The brunt of the football violations occured in the summer of 2003, and involved assistance given to prospective transferring student-athletes successfully completing correspondence courses online, the report said. Included in those violations was a former football staff member providing the prospective athletes with tutoring, study assistance and answers to exams, the report said.

In turn, the football team was handed the stiffest of the penalties doled out, and it involved the acceptance of two-year junior college transfers, according to the report. The program will be allowed to accept only three per year for the next two years, which is a drastic drop from the average of nine per year accepted over the past three seasons. The program will also have one less initial grant-in-aid awards for the next two seasons, the report said.

The women's basketball violations, according to the university's reports, were mostly linked to former assistant Tim Eatman, and all took place in the summer and fall semester of 2002, and involved two prospective student-athletes. The women's basketball team was punished with a reduction in initial grant-in-aid awards by two for the 2005-06 season, the report said. The University will also reduce the number of permissible off-campus recruiting coaches from three to two for the 2005-06 season, according to the report.

The lone men's basketball violation, with the approval of former men's head basketball coach Roy Williams, involved gifts of cash and clothing to graduating seniors in the 2000-01, 2001-02 and 2002-03 seasons, the report said. The gifts were provided by Dana Anderson, Joan Edwards and Bernard Morgan, who are three representatives of the University's athletic interest, according to the report.

The men's basketball program will not receive punishment in the form of lost scholarships aid, the report said.

[Pitt Gorilla]

KU's football violations appear to be the worst.

"Included in those violations was a former football staff member providing the prospective athletes with tutoring, study assistance and answers to exams, the report said."

Providing answers to exams is pretty serious.

[Lzen]

Most of this looks like silly mistakes. I mean, really. Who would've thought that it would be a violation to give graduating seniors gift in cards? The only one that looks semi serious to me is the football thing. But at least our AD and chancellor took care of it in house without even being forced.

[DJay23]

KU's football violations appear to be the worst.

"Included in those violations was a former football staff member providing the prospective athletes with tutoring, study assistance and answers to exams, the report said."

Providing answers to exams is pretty serious.
Yeah, that one is bad news. Someone needs to be shitcanned over that.

[ChiTown]

Most of this looks like silly mistakes. I mean, really. Who would've thought that it would be a violation to give graduating seniors gift in cards? The only one that looks semi serious to me is the football thing. But at least our AD and chancellor took care of it in house without even being forced.

or answers to tests. I mean, really, is that bad?
:p

[eazyb81]

Please explain. I know nothing of a cheating tradition at KU.

And it would serve you to actually read the press release. There was one violation by the men's basketball program under ROY WILLIAMS, not Bill Self.

Kansas has more major NCAA violations in bball then Mizzou does, even though the majority of KU fans act like Mizzou's program is dirty.

[DJay23]

Kansas has more major NCAA violations in bball then Mizzou does, even though the majority of KU fans act like Mizzou's program is dirty.
Do you have some source or link to prove this claim? I know of no major violations since 1988.

[ChiTown]

Kansas has more major NCAA violations in bball then Mizzou does, even though the majority of KU fans act like Mizzou's program is dirty.

Don't kid yourself - it is.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Don't kid yourself - it is.If there was a good aspect of the RC investigation, it was that our FB program came out squeaky clean.

[eazyb81]

Do you have some source or link to prove this claim? I know of no major violations since 1988.

Go to NCAA.org and do the research yourself.

[DJay23]

Go to NCAA.org and do the research yourself.
bullshit. you made the claim, back it up.

[Braincase]

More I read and hear about this, the more I realize that I was being defensive earlier and lashing out out of spite. I apologize for my earlier posts. KU should be investigated by the NCAA, leaving no stone unturned. I love the University of Kansas, but this blackeye is embarrassing for the staff, faculty and fans of the Jayhawks.

[Pitt Gorilla]

More I read and hear about this, the more I realize that I was being defensive earlier and lashing out out of spite. I apologize for my earlier posts. KU should be investigated by the NCAA, leaving no stone unturned. I love the University of Kansas, but this blackeye is embarrassing for the staff, faculty and fans of the Jayhawks.
Actually, it could be a good thing. I think it straightened out or woke up Quin and helped to ensure that they would be clean (we hope). As I previously noted, the entire athletic department was investigated and really, overall, came out pretty clean. This is good when you consider there is a lot of room for error with a program as big as football. Pinkel runs a tight ship.

[DJay23]

More I read and hear about this, the more I realize that I was being defensive earlier and lashing out out of spite. I apologize for my earlier posts. KU should be investigated by the NCAA, leaving no stone unturned. I love the University of Kansas, but this blackeye is embarrassing for the staff, faculty and fans of the Jayhawks.
I think a bigger deal is being made of all of this than is necessary. While you should never violate NCAA rules, it's kind of hard not to slip here and there over the course of several years. The NCAA is notorious for nit-picky menutia they deem violations especially where recruiting is concerned. I may be interpreting this wrong, but I think the fact that KU only gave itself a self-imposed probation, and DIDN'T ask for the NCAA to investigate means these are not a big deal.

It seems like a situation where some football coaches and women's basketball coaches just didn't pay close enough attention. The giving answers on a test thing is unacceptable however.

I think more universities should and probably do this sort of thing.

[eazyb81]

bullshit. you made the claim, back it up.Here you go, lazy.

https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBI.home

(enter Big 12 as the conference, and set the sport to men's basketball)

Nov 01, 1988University of KansasIMPERMISSIBLE RECRUITING: airline ticket provided by athletics representat ... (https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBi.MajorInfPackage.DisplayMICase?p_PkValue=65&p_HeadFoot=1&p_CallCount=1&p_Name=University%20of%20Kansas&p_HeadingTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_SummaryTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_PenaltyTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_PublicTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_AppealTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated)

Aug 17, 1972University of KansasImproper financial aid and transportation; extra benefits; improper recruit (https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBi.MajorInfPackage.DisplayMICase?p_PkValue=247&p_HeadFoot=1&p_CallCount=1&p_Name=University%20of%20Kansas&p_HeadingTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_SummaryTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_PenaltyTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_PublicTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_AppealTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated)

Oct 26, 1960University of KansasExtra benefits; improper recruiting contacts and entertainment. ... (https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBi.MajorInfPackage.DisplayMICase?p_PkValue=1&p_HeadFoot=1&p_CallCount=1&p_Name=University%20of%20Kansas&p_HeadingTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_SummaryTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_PenaltyTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_PublicTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_AppealTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated)

Jan 11, 1957University of KansasImproper recruiting inducement and transportation. ... (https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBi.MajorInfPackage.DisplayMICase?p_PkValue=37&p_HeadFoot=1&p_CallCount=1&p_Name=University%20of%20Kansas&p_HeadingTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_SummaryTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_PenaltyTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_PublicTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_AppealTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated)


This could be major infraction #5 for the KU bball program, which leads the Big 12. Congrats!

[KChiefs1]

Is this supposed to be news? I thought everyone knew that Roy was cheating. Paying players is about as bad as it gets doesn't it? How is this different than what Mizzou got charged with? Hate to ruin everyone's image of Roy & of KU, but everyone cheats according to the NCAA.

[ChiTown]

I think a bigger deal is being made of all of this than is necessary. While you should never violate NCAA rules, it's kind of hard not to slip here and there over the course of several years. The NCAA is notorious for nit-picky menutia they deem violations especially where recruiting is concerned. I may be interpreting this wrong, but I think the fact that KU only gave itself a self-imposed probation, and DIDN'T ask for the NCAA to investigate means these are not a big deal.

It seems like a situation where some football coaches and women's basketball coaches just didn't pay close enough attention. The giving answers on a test thing is unacceptable however.

I think more universities should and probably do this sort of thing.

:rolleyes:

[Coach]

Here you go, lazy.

https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBI.home

This could be major infraction #5 for the KU bball program, which leads the Big 12. Congrats!

Nov 01, 1988 University of Kansas IMPERMISSIBLE RECRUITING: airline ticket provided by athletics representative. (KU Men's Basketball)

Nov 30, 1983 University of Kansas Improper financial aid and transportation; extra benefits; improper recruit... (KU Football)

Aug 17, 1972 University of Kansas Improper financial aid and transportation; extra benefits; improper recruit... (KU Football)

Oct 26, 1960 University of Kansas Extra benefits; improper recruiting contacts and entertainment.... (KU Football and Men's Basketball)

Jan 11, 1957 University of Kansas Improper recruiting inducement and transportation.... (KU Men's Basketball)

So it's actually infraction # 4 for the men's b-ball, if it is considered a major infraction.

[eazyb81]

Actually, men's basketball was an involved sport in the 1972 infraction.

Either way, KU's bball program leads the conference in major infractions. Is there a banner for that?

[DJay23]

Here you go, lazy.

https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBI.home

(enter Big 12 as the conference, and set the sport to men's basketball)

Nov 01, 1988University of KansasIMPERMISSIBLE RECRUITING: airline ticket provided by athletics representat ... (https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBi.MajorInfPackage.DisplayMICase?p_PkValue=65&p_HeadFoot=1&p_CallCount=1&p_Name=University%20of%20Kansas&p_HeadingTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_SummaryTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_PenaltyTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_PublicTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_AppealTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated)

Aug 17, 1972University of KansasImproper financial aid and transportation; extra benefits; improper recruit (https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBi.MajorInfPackage.DisplayMICase?p_PkValue=247&p_HeadFoot=1&p_CallCount=1&p_Name=University%20of%20Kansas&p_HeadingTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_SummaryTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_PenaltyTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_PublicTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_AppealTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated)

Oct 26, 1960University of KansasExtra benefits; improper recruiting contacts and entertainment. ... (https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBi.MajorInfPackage.DisplayMICase?p_PkValue=1&p_HeadFoot=1&p_CallCount=1&p_Name=University%20of%20Kansas&p_HeadingTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_SummaryTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_PenaltyTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_PublicTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_AppealTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated)

Jan 11, 1957University of KansasImproper recruiting inducement and transportation. ... (https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBi.MajorInfPackage.DisplayMICase?p_PkValue=37&p_HeadFoot=1&p_CallCount=1&p_Name=University%20of%20Kansas&p_HeadingTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_SummaryTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_PenaltyTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_PublicTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_AppealTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated)


This could be major infraction #5 for the KU bball program, which leads the Big 12. Congrats!
See, now don't you feel better? Someone called you out and you backed up your claim. Good for you. It's not about me being lazy (which I openly admit to) you typed the words, IMO you're obligated to prove to me your point.

As for the infractions, I had no idea there were so many in KU's history. That is indeed embarrassing.

[Coach]

Actually, men's basketball was an involved sport in the 1972 infraction.

Either way, KU's bball program leads the conference in major infractions. Is there a banner for that?

Heh, while KU may lead the Big 12 for Basketball, here is the list for the Big XII teams of # of Major Infractions.

1. Texas A&M - 7
2. Kansas St. - 6
3. Baylor U. - 5
Kansas - 5
Oklahoma - 5
6. Texas - 4
Colorado - 4
Oklahoma St. - 4
Missouri - 4
Nebraska - 4
11. Texas Tech - 2
12. Iowa State - 1

[DJay23]

Is there a banner for that?
No, but the punishments were served and we still managed to win a few games. What's your excuse?

[Coach]

See, now don't you feel better? Someone called you out and you backed up your claim. Good for you. It's not about me being lazy (which I openly admit to) you typed the words, IMO you're obligated to prove to me your point.

As for the infractions, I had no idea there were so many in KU's history. That is indeed embarrassing.

Eh, it's deftinaly not too bad, considering the fact that they were spread out.

Wichita St. on the other hand, has 7 all together (4 in Men's BB, last time in 1982). Southern Methodist University, has the most, with 8. The kicker is, all of the fractions are directed towards the football program.

[DJay23]

So let's see, the '57 and '60 infractions would have been Dick Harp.
'72 was Ted Owens
'83 and '88 were Brown.

Not making any point just looking at who did what.

[DJay23]

So let's see, the '57 and '60 infractions would have been Dick Harp.
'72 was Ted Owens
'83 and '88 were Brown.

Not making any point just looking at who did what.
or was '83 Owens too?

[DJay23]

Eh, it's deftinaly not too bad, considering the fact that they were spread out.

Wichita St. on the other hand, has 7 all together (4 in Men's BB, last time in 1982). Southern Methodist University, has the most, with 8. The kicker is, all of the fractions are directed towards the football program.
SMU got the death penalty a while back, no?

Personally, I do think it's bad.

[Coach]

or was '83 Owens too?

1983 was the football team, not basketball.

[Coach]

SMU got the death penalty a while back, no?

Personally, I do think it's bad.

I'm not sure if they did or not.

[eazyb81]

Yep, SMU's football team got the death penalty.

[Coach]

I'm not sure if they did or not.

They did get the Death Penalty in 1987. That 1987 death penalty destroyed SMU football forever. They never recovered, even once they started the sport again.

[PastorMikH]

Don't kid yourself - it is.

It has to be to level the field against your bunch of cheaters.:p

[PastorMikH]

If there was a good aspect of the RC investigation, it was that our FB program came out squeaky clean.



You know, from the looks of our football team, they could use the help.:)

[Coach]

Wow. Stony Brook University, a D-1AA has 15 sports that is under probation, effective until 2008.

[Coach]

And for any of you who were curious, the last team to get threatened of the Death Penalty was Baylor.

Baylor is subject to the so-called "death penalty" of NCAA Bylaw 19.5.2.3.2 (a). That bylaw section allows the committee to prohibit "some or all outside competition in the sport involved in the latest major violation for one or two sport seasons.

[buddha]

I'd hardly call the Men's Basketball violations cheating, but knowning Roy let it happen doesn't fit very well.

I do have to respect that we, unlike Missouri, didn't wait for the NCAA to find out, we clean ourselves up.

What a pile of crap THAT is. Boy, do you need a serious reality check. More KU violations are coming...don't worry.

[teedubya]

Well MU would never ever give gifts to graduating players who have no eligibility left. Not only is it against their high morals, but also they dont have any graduates.

:shrug:


ROFL

:spock:

[buddha]

Well MU would never ever give gifts to graduating players who have no eligibility left. Not only is it against their high morals, but also they dont have any graduates.

What's Self's graduation rate? Want to compare it to Quin's? No??? Didn't think so. :shake:

[teedubya]

What's Self's graduation rate? Want to compare it to Quin's? No??? Didn't think so. :shake:

yeah! bring it on... Im grabbing the stat sheets right now, punk!11

[DJay23]

Ok, we've established that KU cheated. No Jayhawk can defend it. You break rules, you pay the price. Mizzou has cheated. They paid (are paying) their price. Call it even.

Now that that's settled, how many National Titles does Mizzou have in basketball? Final Fours?

(Yes, I know the answers to those questions).

Suck it Tiggers.

[DJay23]

More KU violations are coming...don't worry.
Oh really? Do enlighten us.

[WilliamTheIrish]

The only serious violation is giving test answers to players.

The NCAA is just so full of itself it makes me wretch.

[eazyb81]

Ok, we've established that KU cheated. No Jayhawk can defend it. You break rules, you pay the price. Mizzou has cheated. They paid (are paying) their price. Call it even.

Now that that's settled, how many National Titles does Mizzou have in basketball? Final Fours?

(Yes, I know the answers to those questions).

Suck it Tiggers.

How many titles does KU have in the modern era that didn't come from cheating?

That's what I thought.

Suck it Gayhawks.

[DJay23]

How many titles does KU have in the modern era that didn't come from cheating?

That's what I thought.

Suck it Gayhawks.
I would guess none. Wouldn't the NCAA take the titles away if they were gained through cheating a la Michigan?

[Braincase]

When sh!t went down at Mizzou, we all laughed. Why would we expect anything less than tit for tat? We called the Tigers all sorts of foul names, and now it's our turn to eat crow.

Don't expect any fans of other programs to take the high road. We didn't.

[DJay23]

The usual morning overkill from the Journal-World:

Summary - Basically, the men's basketball violations come from Roy Williams approving graduation gifts from boosters since at least 1988. The rules violations have been deemed secondary since they provided no competitive or recruiting advantage.

http://www.kusports.com/news/mens_basketball/story/114808

Violations revealed
Probe cites gifts to graduates

By Gary Bedore, Assistant Sports Editor

Saturday, July 16, 2005

Roy Williams, who violated an NCAA extra benefit rule at Kansas University by approving donor gifts to graduating basketball players and others who completed their eligibility, will wait until today to make an official statement on the matter.

Williams, the University of North Carolina's coach the past two years after working at KU 15 seasons, told the Journal-World from the recruiting trail he would study the issue Friday night.

He has, however, addressed the issue in a taped conversation with former NCAA enforcement official Rick Evrard.

That was during Evrard's two-year investigation into possible violations in KU football, women's basketball and men's basketball. Williams told Evrard he thought it was within the rules for boosters Dana Anderson, Joan Edwards and Bernie Morgan to provide departing seniors graduation gifts, which turned out to be between $50 and $400.

Because Williams was not asked often by boosters about giving gifts -- ones he insisted not be "humongous," -- the ex-KU coach said he "didn't feel like there was any groundswell of a movement," and no reason to raise a red flag.

"I didn't feel there was any campaign to try to get together and give our graduating seniors any gifts," Williams said.

Williams said of the two times he was asked by boosters if it was OK to provide graduation gifts, he first checked with unnamed KU officials.

"I know I had some conversation just to make sure it was all right," Williams said. "Again, I emphasized to the person (making gift) that I don't want this to be any humongous check for playing basketball.

"It is a graduation gift and is something that's not advertised. It's not talked about. It's not promised (in recruiting)."

The intent behind the gifts is the reason Evrard believes the violation of extra benefit rule 16.12.2.1 will be deemed "secondary" by the NCAA -- not serious enough to warrant sanctions.

In fact, the only self-imposed sanction issued by chancellor Robert Hemenway was addressed through additional "rules education for all of the men's basketball coaches and student-athletes regarding gifts after eligibility has been exhausted."

"The NCAA defines secondary violations as isolated or inadvertent that provide nothing more than a minimal recruiting or competitive advantage. Everything else by definition is a major violation," Evrard explained.

"Those violations didn't provide a recruiting advantage, didn't provide a competitive advantage. They occurred after eligibility had expired.

"You might have a little bit difficult time arguing it was isolated or inadvertent because there were several student-athletes involved," he added.

Evrard's study showed 17 unnamed seniors receiving graduation gifts of money or clothing from at least one of three supporters since 1997, though Mrs. Edwards recalled providing small gifts to players since 1988.

No gifts were provided to any graduating seniors in the Bill Self era.

That's because in May of 2004, athletic director Lew Perkins learned of the gifts by accident. He was passing the basketball players' mailboxes when hoops secretary Joanie Stephens dropped some mail.

In bending to scoop the mail, Perkins noticed several letters were addressed to three KU players from supporter Edwards.

Perkins took the letters, and with the players in his office, learned they'd received cards with $50 gifts provided by Edwards.

Perkins later learned that booster Anderson also might have been providing graduation gifts. Contacted by Evrard, Anderson said he'd provided monetary gifts the past few years after learning it was OK from coach Williams.

Booster Morgan, meanwhile, told Evrard he had asked Williams approximately eight years ago if it was OK to give graduation gifts and was told by Williams to check with KU compliance. According to Evrard's report, a KU official told Morgan that after the last scholarship check had cleared and an athlete had left KU, it was OK to give a gift.

"The boosters did nothing wrong. They called and asked. I commend them for that," Perkins said. "The kids did nothing wrong. They see a check as a graduation gift and take it."

Did coach Williams do anything wrong?

"In my mind, it's simply a misinterpretation of the rules," Perkins said. "I think his response was he thought it was OK to do.

"Those things happen. I think coach Williams or any coach who has misinterpreted something, when there's no intent to violate any of the rules, he definitely feels bad about it.

"I believe it was a misinterpretation, not an attempt to gain any advantages (by Williams)."

Evrard said he recommended KU not internally punish the basketball program because of past cases he studied in which gifts were provided to athletes after graduation by coaches or donors. He said all were considered secondary violations.

"There's case precedent that clearly indicates if there's no competitive advantage or recruiting advantage a penalty doesn't really need to follow," Evrard said. "At the same time, it is important to recognize in case precedent that institutions have consistently applied a higher standard of rules education to the current administration, current coaches and current student-athletes so they are aware these things are violations and don't happen again. It's why I included to the institution the recommendation that rules education take place."

Evrard can understand how Williams would not have known that once athletes enroll, they are barred for life from receiving gifts from fans.

"When you look at the NCAA legislative services database and cases that exist there, you see consistently the coach misunderstood or didn't understand or misapplied the rule," said Evrard, now an attorney for an Overland Park law firm. "I think it is perhaps common coaches don't realize that perhaps getting a gift after eligibility is exhausted is a violation."

[DJay23]

http://www.kusports.com/news/mens_basketball/story/114811

Summary: Boschee admits to receiving graduation gifts after he completed his career at KU in 2002. Jeff thinks the NCAA is ridiculous and that the rules violations are an example of the NCAA keepin the man down.

Boschee received two gifts
By Gary Bedore, Assistant Sports Editor

Saturday, July 16, 2005

Jeff Boschee says, yes, he received a pair of graduation gifts from boosters after leaving Kansas University in 2002.


He's not hiding the fact. In fact, he's proud of it.

"It was nothing big, a card saying congratulations and some money. I don't remember it being a lot," said former KU guard Boschee. "I think it's harmless, a nice gesture."

KU reported boosters giving outgoing seniors graduation gifts in a report of possible NCAA violations to the NCAA on Friday.

"Somebody is getting out of school trying to make a living and gets a graduation gift and it's a violation? If that's the case, I think it's ridiculous," Boschee said. "The NCAA needs to chill out a little. ... The NCAA is just a cult."

Boschee -- he said he picked up a card sent from booster Dana Anderson in his KU mailbox in June of 2002 after working at his job cleaning pools in Lawrence -- is upset that boosters providing gifts of $50 to $400 is a violation, though likely a "secondary" one.

"My time at KU is over. I'm an alumni of KU. It's harmless giving a card to somebody trying to get started making a living. The NCAA makes billions of dollars and we athletes don't make a cent and they get on us for getting a check for $300 as a graduation gift?"

Boschee said booster Bernie Morgan and Morgan's wife took him to dinner and a Royals game the summer after his senior year. He threw out the first ball at the game.

"To say that's a violation is stupid. It has nothing to do with basketball. It has nothing to do with coming to school. It's congratulations on leaving school," Boschee said, laughing at the fact no booster can give a player a gift from the time he enrolls at school until the time he dies.

"What if Danny Manning gives me $10? Do we get put on probation? It's a joke," he said.

• Self's take: KU coach Bill Self on Friday assessed no blame for the current situation -- not to boosters who provided gifts to graduating seniors, not to the players, not to former KU coach Roy Williams.

"I hate that we are dealing with this, but these things happen. I believe these things to be unintentional," Self told the Journal-World from the recruiting trail.

"I believe wholeheartedly this was not done with any intention of hurting the program or trying to do anything outside what the rules stated. Unfortunately in our business there are things that do occur and sometimes you don't like what does occur and have to deal with it. I'm sure there was no ill intent by all the parties involved."

Self said this should not hurt recruiting. "I'm sure there will be some things we'll have to say to clarify the situation, but that's it. I just want to say I can't be more excited about this upcoming season."

[DJay23]

:rolleyes:

Someone agrees with me...

http://www.kusports.com/news/woodling/story/114809

Woodling: Jayhawks' spotlight too bright
By Chuck Woodling, Sports Editor

Saturday, July 16, 2005

When I walked in the door of Hadl Auditorium Friday afternoon, one of the Kansas University sports information staffers handed me a "Media Copy" of the report.

I can remember when Lawrence phone books weren't that hefty.

The "Self-Report of NCAA Rules Violations by the University of Kansas" contained 125 pages -- I counted them -- with eight thick dividers.

Hmm, this must be more serious than I thought. This baby's heavy and must contain a whole bunch of dastardly improprieties.

Wrong. Sure, the football violations were serious and so were the women's basketball no-nos, but why call a press conference to announce them? The rest of the report -- particularly the men's basketball wrist-slapping -- was strictly ticky-tack.

I mean, who cares if former KU basketball assistant coach Joe Holladay improperly reimbursed three prospects at 31 cents a mile instead of 30 cents a mile? The report even mentioned an instance in 2000 when baseball coach Bobby Randall paid $17.49 for a prospect's father's meal outside the permissible 30-mile radius. Geez.

They even sullied Roy Williams, a coach who made Mr. Clean look like Pigpen, for giving the OK for donors to send gifts to players who had completed their eligibility. Heck, that's a practice that started in the late '80s.

Of course, the national media jumped on that men's basketball angle like piranha on hamburger because the possibility of clay feet on the coach of the defending NCAA champions was just too good to pass up. Williams isn't a saint, but this reeked of mud-slinging.

And yet as bad as this press conference made Williams look, it made Kansas University athletics look every worse because it magnified what amounts to a raft of secondary violations.

Chancellor Robert Hemenway called the violations serious. Athletic director Lew Perkins called them serious. And so did Rick Evrard, the attorney for the Overland Park law firm who did the snooping.

Still, the KU infractions don't seem all that serious to me. My definition of serious is when a school is prohibited from appearing on television or in postseason tournaments, or forced to drop its nonconference games. Like Baylor. Then again, maybe the NCAA's enforcement division has only two categories -- serious and real serious.

Did KU make a mistake by calling too much attention to itself with all the trappings of a press conference?

Hemenway didn't think so.

"To my mind, if we're looked on as doing it the right way," the chancellor told me, "I hope other institutions will use us as a model."

Hemenway, as you may know, completed a three-year term as chair of the NCAA's prestigious President's Council in April and it might be assumed he was using his national reputation to send a message to the membership about the importance of fessing up, regardless of the severity of the crimes.

Hemenway refuted that notion, however, saying, "I didn't feel I had any obligation other than to the University of Kansas."

On the flip side, you could argue there is no such thing as bad publicity, that placing Kansas University in the national spotlight, regardless of the context, is priceless. Hemenway insisted, however, that he simply wants everyone to know KU is committed to excellence.

"We pride ourselves in living up to higher standards, and not to minimum standards," he said. "That's why we've treated this the way we have. You can say that's hokey, but for us it's serious."

There's that word again.

In my opinion -- and in all seriousness -- the spotlight Kansas University focused on these violations didn't fit the misdemeanors. It was overkill.

[DJay23]

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=2572008

Summary: The football infractions seem more serious because they were committed before players were actually enrolled in school at KU. Basically setting up "assistance" and enrolling JUCO transfers in correspondence courses. KU loses a scholarship each of the next 2 seasons and can only recruit 3 JUCO players the next 2 years.

Football hit with recruiting restrictions
By Ryan Wood, Journal-World Sports Writer

Saturday, July 16, 2005

Kansas University's football team, accused of several improper academic practices in 2003, must adjust its recruiting strategy as a result.

For eight NCAA violations self-reported by KU and released to the media Friday, the football program will lose one scholarship in the 2005-06 and 2006-07 recruiting seasons. In addition, the Jayhawks only will be able to recruit three players from junior colleges in each of those seasons.

The latter is a big blow, considering KU has averaged nine juco signees per recruiting season since head coach Mark Mangino's arrival in 2002.

"The recommended penalties to the athletic department based on my review and research of case precedent indicated a reduction of about two-thirds of what you'd normally do," said Rick Evrard, an attorney for an Overland Park law firm that conducted the two-year internal investigation.

Mangino was unavailable for comment Friday, but said through a team spokesperson that he would comment on all issues when the NCAA investigation was complete.

As part of the punishment, Mangino and assistant coach Clint Bowen were sent letters of admonishment for their parts in eight violations uncovered by KU -- Mangino because of "his overall responsibility for the program" and Bowen for his involvement with prospective junior-college transfers' attempts to pass correspondence courses in the summer of 2003.

Bowen was cited for helping enroll the prospective juco transfers in correspondence classes, monitoring their daily studies and setting up test-taking sessions with a proctor -- friend and Free State High teacher Jama Crady. Because the student-athletes weren't enrolled at KU and weren't part of the football team yet, Bowen wasn't allowed to assist in any way, as written in NCAA Bylaw 13.2.1.

Also, graduate assistants and student tutors (who were unnamed and identified only as "XXX" in the report) were cited as wrong in helping enroll seven prospective juco transfers in correspondence classes, monitoring their daily studies, permitting them to use computers in the coaches' offices, allowing three students to share answers for an online quiz, assisting to set up Crady as a test proctor, serving as a proctor for examinations when Crady was on vacation, helping prospective student-athletes with tutoring and answers to correspondence exams, and mailing exams to Brigham Young University on behalf of the students.

The graduate assistants and Crady, a former KU swimmer, also admitted to providing transportation to the prospective student-athletes between FSHS and KU, another violation.

Graduate assistants, student tutors and the prospective student-athletes weren't named in the report in compliance with federal law. But KU's two graduate assistants in 2003 were Mitch Running and John Papuchis. Running went to France to coach in a pro league in 2004, while Papuchis currently is an intern in the Louisiana State football office.

BYU was the only school named as a source of online classes in the report. Brigham Young's records office confirmed to the Journal-World on Friday that former KU juco recruits Shelton Simmons, John McCoy and Johnny Urrutia all enrolled in at least one class at BYU in the summer of 2003. They also confirmed several students with the name of Chuck Jones attended BYU, but couldn't say whether the former KU defensive lineman was one of them.

The records office then directed further questions to BYU's independent-study office, which wouldn't confirm the enrollment of any other students. Besides those four, Richard Estrella, Marcus Hicks, Zach Mims, Gabriel Toomey, Phil Tuihalamaka, Joe Vaughn and Monroe Weekley all were prospective junior-college transfers for the 2003 season. Only McCoy, who currently is serving a military tour of duty overseas, still is a member of the team.

An eighth violation regarded former assistant coach Tyrone Dixon providing clothing to an unnamed player, both as a recruit and a member of the team.

In all, the violations led to a minor scholarship loss, among other punishments. But athletic director Lew Perkins said Friday it was a major indication that such actions were unacceptable.

"There is a message being delivered in the fact that we're taking scholarships away that this is serious," Perkins said.

Mangino released a statement that was included among the hundreds of pages passed out Friday to media members.

"I am disappointed that this occurred under my watch," Mangino's statement read. "I did not know these violations were occurring at the time, but as the head coach I am aware that ultimately I am responsible for the actions of my staff.

"I believe the penalties we have self-imposed are appropriate. My staff and I have made a commitment to this University that we will not compromise with regard to academic integrity and NCAA rules compliance. We are deeply committed to both of these goals, and I have implemented safeguards to ensure that this will not happen again."

[Coach]

The only serious violation is giving test answers to players.

The NCAA is just so full of itself it makes me wretch.

I'll agree to that.

[eazyb81]

I'll agree to that.

yeah, paying players really isn't that bad.

:rolleyes:

[Coach]

yeah, paying players really isn't that bad.

:rolleyes:

Wasn't really paying players. More of like congratulations present, and it was after they graduated, from what I read.

[eazyb81]

Wasn't really paying players. More of like congratulations present, and it was after they graduated, from what I read.

Spin it however you want, the players got paid. The NCAA doesn't look fondly on giving money to players.

[DJay23]

Spin it however you want, the players got paid. The NCAA doesn't look fondly on giving money to players.
You're never supposed to give NCAA players money for any reason.

That being said, if it's going to happen, it better be after his playing days are over.

According to Roy, the graduation gifts weren't used as a recruiting tool. I'd hardly call it paying players. They were being congratulated on achieving and important goal in life. Still seems kind of shady, but far less shady than rolling up with an SUV full of clothes and cash and handing them out.

Coincidentally, it was pointed out that no graduation gifts have been given since Bill Self arrived.

[Coach]

Spin it however you want, the players got paid. The NCAA doesn't look fondly on giving money to players.

And that's where I have a problem with the NCAA. The NCAA is becoming more of a facist/communism group. So if a player is graduating, and is officially an alumni of a certain school, it's still a no-no to give them a harmless congratulation card and a little money? Keep in mind that the fact that it has nothing to do with any sport, let alone, anything to do with academics. It's about congratulating a person who just leaving school. Oh gee, my college gave me a discount for me to go buy some stuff when I graduated. Shall I contact the NCAA and report that violation? :rolleyes:

[Coach]

Coincidentally, it was pointed out that no graduation gifts have been given since Bill Self arrived.

That is correct, but if I recall correctly, Bill Self came in 2004, I believe. They found that out in 2003. So I'm assuming the athletic department wanted to stop that before it gets out of control or something. My guess is as good as yours.

[eazyb81]

You're never supposed to give NCAA players money for any reason.

That being said, if it's going to happen, it better be after his playing days are over.

According to Roy, the graduation gifts weren't used as a recruiting tool. I'd hardly call it paying players. They were being congratulated on achieving and important goal in life. Still seems kind of shady, but far less shady than rolling up with an SUV full of clothes and cash and handing them out.

Coincidentally, it was pointed out that no graduation gifts have been given since Bill Self arrived.

Come on...

Listen, i'm not saying it's the worst incident in recent history, and KU is not getting the death penalty, but paying players is paying players. KU boosters gave over $4000 in impermissable cash donations to KU bball players.....that is not small potatoes. MU received probation from some very minor offenses, so I fully expect KU to receive some sort of probation once the dust settles.

[WilliamTheIrish]

yeah, paying players really isn't that bad.

:rolleyes:

Doesn't mean a thing to me. The NCAA ia ALL about getting paid. It's not about education or 'student' athlete's.

It's all about money.

[AirForceChief]

If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'...what's sad is at least Larry "Probation" Brown was able to bring home the championship. All I got from Roy Williams was that underachieving cheater feeling.

Go Hawks! College sports rock!! Just realize they have nothing to do w/ acedemics and all about the money.

[DJay23]

Come on...

Listen, i'm not saying it's the worst incident in recent history, and KU is not getting the death penalty, but paying players is paying players. KU boosters gave over $4000 in impermissable cash donations to KU bball players.....that is not small potatoes. MU received probation from some very minor offenses, so I fully expect KU to receive some sort of probation once the dust settles.
I didn't see where an exact number was put to it, but officially gifts have been given since '97. If that's true, that's $4000 over the course of 6 years (ending in 2003). That's an average of $666.67 per year. Consider you have at least 3-4 guys graduating per year from the team, seems like they got about what I did from relatives when I graduated from college.

I think you're missing a big point here. The money was handed over AFTER eligibility expired. Against the rules? Apparently. An egregious and scandalous attempt to give out money under the table to players on the team? Doesn't seem like it. It doesn't sit well with me, but I feel confident that no NCAA probation will come of this. The infractions were deemed secondary which usually doesn't warrant penalty by the NCAA. In addition, KU self-reported and gave itself it's own probation, which the NCAA usually takes into consideration.

[DJay23]

That is correct, but if I recall correctly, Bill Self came in 2004, I believe. They found that out in 2003. So I'm assuming the athletic department wanted to stop that before it gets out of control or something. My guess is as good as yours.
Self arrived at the end of the Spring '03 semester.

[Coach]

Self arrived at the end of the Spring '03 semester.

Ah yes. I kept thinking 2004 for some reason. Thanks for correcting me.

[AirForceChief]

I'm certain that the promise of a few hundred bucks, contingent on me playing out my elegibility, is just what sways big-time BB players coming to Lawrence...geeeeeze. Why didn't LaBron come to KU?

[DJay23]

Ah yes. I kept thinking 2004 for some reason. Thanks for correcting me.
Doesn't seem like it was that long ago.

[KChiefs1]

I'm surprised Quin hasn't gotten together with Laurie or Kroenke to get them to pay the Mizzou's graduates $100,000 "AFTER" graduation so they could get their lives off to a good start. It would be "AFTER" graduation so it should be alright.....right?

[DJay23]

I'm surprised Quin hasn't gotten together with Laurie or Kroenke to get them to pay the Mizzou's graduates $100,000 "AFTER" graduation so they could get their lives off to a good start. It would be "AFTER" graduation so it should be alright.....right?

:rolleyes:
No one said it was alright, it simply seems like less of a hindrance on academics, recruiting, and playing than getting that money while in school. Something Quin knows plenty about.

[ChiTown]

College sports rock!! Just realize they have nothing to do w/ acedemics and all about the money.

You got that right!

[HemiEd]

All I got to say is Mizzery loves company.

[beavis]

MU received probation from some very minor offenses, so I fully expect KU to receive some sort of probation once the dust settles.
I'm sure they can just make some kind of "donation" to the powers that be to get out of it.

[beavis]

Well MU would never ever give gifts to graduating players who have no eligibility left. Not only is it against their high morals, but also they dont have any graduates.

:shrug:


ROFL

:spock:
I heard KU just exceeded the University of Phoenix in academic standards. Congrats.

[HemiEd]

I heard on ESPN last night this is all about a total of $400. Reminds me in the early 80s when WSU was put on probation the last time. The way I understood it the worst violation was giving a coat left at the University by Bob Elmore to Cliff Levingston. Cliff was from California and did not have winter atire. BFD

[Braincase]

I heard KU just exceeded the University of Phoenix in academic standards. Congrats.

As a husband of KU Engineering Faculty, and I mean this in all sincerity, "Up Yours".

Is Ken Lay still speaking at MU on Business Ethics?

[ROYC75]

All of this is ticky tack BS with the minimal graduation gifts and the BB program.

The BIG TURD in the punch bowl is the football senario....... That's will get you into alot of trouble.

Not a happy camper here by any means........

[chiefqueen]

Okay if "once a student-athlete, always a student-athlete" is true then...........................

wouldn't KU be committing violations be having Danny Manning be Director of Basketball Operation?

wouldn't Mizzou have violated the NCAA regs all those Norm was head coach?

Isn't North Carolina commiting a violation by having Roy as head coach.

All 3 were given extra benefits by their alma mater known as a job.

[keg in kc]

The real story should be "KU caught". Because they all cheat. The trick is getting away with it. The ones who turn themselves in know their dirty secret's going to come out, so they go into damage control mode.

[KChiefs1]

You are only a cheat if you get caught.