GRETZ: Twisting the Defensive Numbers

[DeepSouth]

http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2005/09/14/gretz_twisting_the_defensive_numbers/
GRETZ: Twisting the Defensive Numbers
Sep 14, 2005, 8:34:34 AM by Bob Gretz - FAQ



Should a football fan that really didn’t pay attention to the details of what happened over the opening weekend pick up the NFL defensive statistics for week No. 1, and check out the Chiefs numbers in pass defense, he would invariably think: “Same Old Chiefs.”



Right there amongst the league numbers it states very clearly that in passing yards allowed, nobody gave up more in the opener than the Chiefs, who allowed 333 yards to the New York Jets. That leaves them right where they spent most of the last two years: at the bottom of the league’s passing yardage standings.

Certainly, the Chiefs gave up more yards passing than Gunther Cunningham wanted to see. But let’s remember, 252 of those yards came in the second half, when the Chiefs held a 17-0 lead. And, 257 of those yards came after Patrick Surtain left the field with a slight concussion in the second quarter.

And, remember the numbers that count: 27-7, the score that had the Chiefs on top. Here’s what’s really interesting about the teams at the bottom of the defensive pass statistics after week No 1 and what they did in that first game:



All those teams had big second half leads that forced their opponents to almost exclusively throw the ball in an attempt to change the scoreboard.

But with the rules changes instituted by the league, and the way the rules are interpreted these days, there’s no way to shutdown the passing game. There are going to be big numbers thrown up on a weekly basis. Thus, passing yards allowed falls farther and farther down the list of important defensive statistics

And consider this: of the five teams that allowed the fewest yards passing last week, Buffalo and Washington won, while Philadelphia, Green Bay and Arizona all dropped their openers.

So, is there nothing to worry about with the Chiefs pass defense? Will they handle the Oakland passing attack of Kerry Collins, Randy Moss and Joey Porter without problem?

Not quite. There were worrisome moments with the pass coverage in the second half against the Jets. The Chiefs were helped out by a trio of dropped passes by wide receiver Laveranues Coles, including one in the end zone and one that would have gone for another touchdown. There were back-to-back plays where Coles badly beat Dewayne Washington, who came into the game when Surtain left with his head injury. Coles dropped the first one and then New York QB Chad Pennington threw poorly on the second pass.

The Chiefs obviously have a problem with cornerback depth. That makes them like most teams in the league. They will limp along in pass coverage probably until Eric Warfield comes back from his four-game suspension. Then, they can revert to their plan from the start of the season, with Dexter McCleon as the nickel back and Benny Sapp working in on several of the other sub-defenses. At this point in his career, Washington doesn’t provide any answers on the field.

As long as they continue to pressure the quarterback, force him to make bad throws or let go of the ball ahead of time, the defensive backs will not be exposed to constant bombardment. They may give up a lot of yards, but the key is keeping them out of the end zone, something the Chiefs did for 59 minutes and 31 seconds.

That’s good enough.

The opinions offered in this column do not necessarily reflect those of the Kansas City Chiefs.

[DeepSouth]

Chart from Article;

[Gaz]

...But with the rules changes instituted by the league, and the way the rules are interpreted these days, there’s no way to shutdown the passing game. There are going to be big numbers thrown up on a weekly basis. Thus, passing yards allowed falls farther and farther down the list of important defensive statistics...

There it is.

xoxo~
Gaz
Not sure why the NFL hates Defense.

[ROYC75]

Blah, no matter how you want to spin this, to allow alot of passing yards is allowing an offense many chances in the RED ZONE. The RED ZONE is what teams try to do, get in position to score points.

Teams are going to score points this year due to the changing of the passing rules.

And yes, I think to continually give alot of passing yards, allows more chance for them to score, which is what the league wants, more scoring.

What I want our team to focus on is the #'s TD's a team gets in ther RED ZONE. Holding teams to 3 points often will produce many wins.

I hate it when teams march up and down the field on us at free will ..............

[Gaz]

...I hate it when teams march up and down the field on us at free will ...

Get used to it, man.

The NFL wants pass completions and the NFL WILL have pass completions. Teams WILL move up and down the field with minimal interference.

xoxo~
Gaz
Not happy about it, either.

[Hammock Parties]

I think McCleon needs to get a little love.

Justin McCareins only had 39 yards.

[jspchief]

Chiefs fans are justified in their skepticism.

We all know from 2003 that a bad defense that manages to win games can can fall flat on it's face at any moment.

I'm glad we won, and am excited about the improved run D and flashes of pass rush. However, the team needs to clamp down on the passing yards or we may end up with a season ending a lot like 2003.

[J Diddy]

Chart from Article;


Shoot if I was worried about anyones D I would be worried about the Colts. The Ravens aren't exactly known for their vertical passing game.

[bkkcoh]

Shoot if I was worried about anyones D I would be worried about the Colts. The Ravens aren't exactly known for their vertical passing game.


That is very true.

[cdcox]

Shoot if I was worried about anyones D I would be worried about the Colts. The Ravens aren't exactly known for their vertical passing game.

Buy a clue! Don't you know that the Colts have Peyton Manning???????

[Gaz]

We could clamp down on the passing yards by not building up a 17-0 lead at halftime. We could also forbid our high-profile FA acquisition to get a concussion and leave the game before halftime.

xoxo~
Gaz
Unconcerned about meaningless statistics.

[ROYC75]

Buy a clue! Don't you know that the Colts have Peyton Manning???????


Duh .......... Me thinks you should re-read the quote. :hmmm:

[bkkcoh]

Buy a clue! Don't you know that the Colts have Peyton Manning???????


Yeah, but the Ravens have Boller and Wright. They don't put fear into defensive coaches ....

[whoman69]

One game really can't be seen as a trend. What was good to see was that with Surtain in there, they didn't tear apart McCleon. We lost Battle and Warfield is out. Its going to be dicey for awhile, but if we can get thru the first 4 games ok, it should be smooth from there. Is this the best the Chiefs can play on D? I'd have to say no, but they were pretty effective through the first half.

[cdcox]

Duh .......... Me thinks you should re-read the quote. :hmmm:

One should read the Planet with ones sarcasm detector turned on.

[ROYC75]

We could clamp down on the passing yards by not building up a 17-0 lead at halftime. We could also forbid our high-profile FA acquisition to get a concussion and leave the game before halftime.

xoxo~
Gaz
Unconcerned about meaningless statistics.



Understanding all too well that the Jets being behind meant more passing yards. I'm thankful that Coles lost 2 TD's catches, they mucked up a FG and sqaundered 2 4th down tries. :hmmm:

Again, too many RED ZONE visits for my taste.


I long for the days of a dominate defense...... shutout wins.

[Hammock Parties]

Roy brings up a good point. The game could have easily been 27-24.

[cdcox]

Tynes missed FG.
Green's redzone INT.

37-24.

Woulda coulda shoulda

[Hoover]

The most important thing that happend last Sunday was the Defense now has Attitued and Confidence, something we have not had in years.

[ROYC75]

One should read the Planet with ones sarcasm detector turned on.

Sorry, the meter is off today...... got alot of work but can't seem to stay away from the planet.

If you had said Boller plays for the Ravens ( meaning Brian Billick thinks he can be pro bowl material ) I would have caught it.

BTA, I guess the Colts defense will be bad when Manning throws thru it in practice everyday.

[Dartgod]

Tynes missed FG.
Green's redzone INT.

37-24.

Woulda coulda shouldaPriest's TD that really wasn't.

30-24

xoxo~
Dartgod
Playing the game*






*Disclaimer: Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, the previous post was made purely TIC :p

[KCTitus]

[font=Garamond][size=3]Priest's TD that really wasn't.

30-24

The missed FG by the Jets' kicker...

30-27

[Gaz]

...and sqaundered 2 4th down tries...

Yah, the Chiefs D had nothing to do with it. Jets players simply fell down and refused to get up.

Perhaps someone can use CGI to remove all the Chiefs players from the film so we can see what REALLY happened at Arrowhead when the Jets lost 27-7 to a Defense that did not even bother to show up.

xoxo~
Gaz
Amazed that the Jets did not shut themselves out.

[Hammock Parties]

The missed FG by the Jets' kicker...

30-27

I already factored that in.

:p

[Marcellus]

My $.02 on this.

Coles dropped the 2 passe son teh same drive. Either catch = 1 TD not both = 2 TD.

Holmes woudl have been down at the 1 and it was 2nd down. I think we can say he would have scored on 3rd down anyway.

HEre is my stat of importance though I haven't checked.

Avg yards passing per attempt. If you throw the ball a lot you are going to get yards especially with the new rules. I am curious as to yards avg per attempt. I bet that number was low with all the fumbles and the fact that the longest pass play was 22 yards.

[Frosty]

Most of the passing yards came in the second half with Surtain out AND the Chiefs' offense barely moving the ball, which gave the Jets more opportunities.

[jspchief]

The Chiefs defense has been absolutely horrible for 3 straight years, and now fans aren't convinced it's better after one game? The nerve of some of some people.

[Marcellus]

My $.02 on this.

Coles dropped the 2 passe son teh same drive. Either catch = 1 TD not both = 2 TD.

Holmes woudl have been down at the 1 and it was 2nd down. I think we can say he would have scored on 3rd down anyway.

HEre is my stat of importance though I haven't checked.

Avg yards passing per attempt. If you throw the ball a lot you are going to get yards especially with the new rules. I am curious as to yards avg per attempt. I bet that number was low with all the fumbles and the fact that the longest pass play was 22 yards.



All that being said I just looked it up and the Jets averaged 8 yards an attempt on 44 attempts. We need to get better.

[Hammock Parties]

Avg yards passing per attempt. If you throw the ball a lot you are going to get yards especially with the new rules. I am curious as to yards avg per attempt. I bet that number was low with all the fumbles and the fact that the longest pass play was 22 yards.

Same as ours, 7.1.

I don't think it's anything to worry about though, because Surtain was out for 2 1/2 quarters.

[htismaqe]

I long for the days of a dominate defense...... shutout wins.

Sorry, but you're FULL OF SHIT.

Marty had ONE...yes that's ONE...shutout win in his entire career here.

Gunther had ONE.

[WisChief]

Sorry, but you're FULL OF SHIT.

Marty had ONE...yes that's ONE...shutout win in his entire career here.

Gunther had ONE.

not nit picking here, but didn't the Chiefs go 8 or 9 games or something in 96-97 where no points were allowed in the second half?

[Hammock Parties]

not nit picking here, but didn't the Chiefs go 8 or 9 games or something in 96-97 where no points were allowed in the second half?

Yeah. They still choked in the playoffs.

Who cares what kind of meaningless records our defense sets in the regular season. I think everyone here can agree we want to see a ****ing playoff win before we die.

[htismaqe]

not nit picking here, but didn't the Chiefs go 8 or 9 games or something in 96-97 where no points were allowed in the second half?

Does it matter?

Roy said he longed for the days of shutout wins. Those days actually NEVER HAPPENED.

[WisChief]

Yeah. They still choked in the playoffs.

Who cares what kind of meaningless records our defense sets in the regular season. I think everyone here can agree we want to see a ****ing playoff win before we die.

NO argument from me, but I think the difference is that we've got some symblance of an offense that can score a couple of points. Hell, who cares about shutouts as long as they can just slow an opposing offense down and keep the points to 10-14/game.

[WisChief]

Does it matter?

Roy said he longed for the days of shutout wins. Those days actually NEVER HAPPENED.

no, it doesn't really matter, I was just thinking in a slightly different direction but still along the same lines of "shutout" wins.

[jspchief]

Sorry, but you're FULL OF SHIT.

Marty had ONE...yes that's ONE...shutout win in his entire career here.

Gunther had ONE.Wrong. Marty has more than one shut-out as a Chiefs head coach.

[jspchief]

Does it matter?

Roy said he longed for the days of shutout wins. Those days actually NEVER HAPPENED.Maybe he was talking about the Marv Levy or Hank Stram era.

[Hog Rider]

I we want to consider Coles dropped touchdown pass, shouldn't we consider Mitchell's (I beleive) dropped pass (interception) the play before coles dropped (or missed) catch?

If it was caught, there would have been no touchdown drop to consider!

At least I think it was the play before.

[CoMoChief]

Tynes missed FG.
Green's redzone INT.

37-24.

Woulda coulda shoulda


You can't look at it that way. Everyone that was watching the game, whether it be at Arrowhead or at home, saw that Coles was wide open on those plays and that he SHOULD have caught those TD passes. I bet almost the entire Kansas City Chiefs fanbase was relieved that Coles didn't make those catches. 99% of the time a good player like that is going to make those catches. Can you honestly say that you would still be boasting about our defense if he would have caught those TD passes? Yeah you can say if Trent would have been smarter in the redzone by not throwinf that INT, and if Tynes made that FG and the score would be 37-24. 24 pts?!?! That's way too much still. No f*cking way are we gonna make the playoffs giving up that amount of points and passing offense this season. We need to be better defensively this season that in 2003 because our division is harder than it was in '03. There were alot of times where they passed it and passed it and marched right down the field on us. We couldn't cover the shitty TE Baker for some reason. BAKER PEOPLE!!!! Who the hell is Baker? Our passing defense needs to be better. Yeah I know that the NFL rules favor offense and the passing game, but there are teams that adjust to that and keep teams from throwing 275+ yards on them in games. If we can get to that level on pass defense, then our greatly improved run defense will make our defense a top 5 defense. That, along with our top 3 offense, nobody is going to be able to stop us. That's not me being a homer, I truly believe that we could beat the shit out of any team that we play this season. I dont just mean beat, I mean dominate.

[ROYC75]

Sorry, but you're FULL OF SHIT.

Marty had ONE...yes that's ONE...shutout win in his entire career here.

Gunther had ONE.

Good Grief......... :rolleyes:

Please keep in mind, I have seen some,( can't tell you the exact dates) probally a few more than you since you are younger.Besides, I think you are linking the word , " dominate " and " shutout wins " together as something that happens often or has in the past.

Just because they are far and few in between doesn't mean they didn't happen and I don't still long to see them.


Kids ! ;)

[WisChief]

No f*cking way are we gonna make the playoffs giving up that amount of points and passing offense this season. We need to be better defensively this season that in 2003 because our division is harder than it was in '03.

Yep.

The GB game was the beginning of the end. They moved the ball at will and the season was over at the end of that day.

[Hammock Parties]

Marty had 3 shutouts.

LOL I think this is the only time I have truly seen htismaqe with egg on his face.

[jspchief]

I know he shut out Houston in 1989 and Cleveland in 1990. Who was the third?

[Hammock Parties]

I know he shut out Houston in 1989 and Cleveland in 1990. Who was the third?

Da Raiduhs in 1997.

[htismaqe]

Wrong. Marty has more than one shut-out as a Chiefs head coach.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/kanindex.htm

[Hammock Parties]

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/kanindex.htm

I just checked that and it is indeed 3.

[htismaqe]

It was a quick scan...I may have missed a couple.

[htismaqe]

Yep.

The GB game was the beginning of the end. They moved the ball at will and the season was over at the end of that day.

That can't be. Mike Mazlowski didn't get injured until Cincinatti.

[WisChief]

That can't be. Mike Mazlowski didn't get injured until Cincinatti.

:banghead: You're right, he only had the game winning fumble recovering at GB. Cincy was the beginning of the end.


ROFL

[Dave Lane]

I think McCleon needs to get a little love.

Justin McCareins only had 39 yards.

They were busy picking on Washington.

Dave

[ptlyon]

There is a saying, "It is what it is".

How many teams in the NFL that have won the SB finished in the bottom 10, heck, let's say bottom half in passing yardage allowed?

It is what it is - and it will burn us. The game was much closer than the score indicated, and if those drops weren't dropped it would have been a much closer ballgame. Might have even turned the tables.

Thanks to Gretz and Rand for blowing sunshine up our ass, but I'm not buying into it.

[Gaz]

...The game was much closer than the score indicated, ...

Wow. We were watching entirely different games.

xoxo~
Gaz
Saw no signs of life from the Jets.

[ROYC75]

I think the " what if's " could be played out many ways here, it's not worth getting into it.

But if anybody here thinks that Gun is happy and will do nothing to fix the pass D, because passing yards means squat, think again.

I think we can all agree that Gun is happy we won and wants to limit the pass D as much as possible.

[KCTitus]

There is also a saying: If 'ifs' and 'buts' were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.

KC backed off and didnt attack after going up 20-0. The missed FG by Tynes was because DV deliberately did not want to run up the score on his friend Herm--by going for the TD instead of the FG--I dont mean to suggest that DV had Tynes miss on purpose.

The game was not close, never in doubt.

[htismaqe]

:banghead: You're right, he only had the game winning fumble recovering at GB. Cincy was the beginning of the end.


ROFL

I was being sarcastic.

We were thoroughly exposed in that Green Bay game. Jerome Woods saved us from getting beat, but after that anybody with half a brain knew our defense was Swiss cheese. Maz didn't make a bit of difference.

[Dartgod]

But if anybody here thinks that Gun is happy and will do nothing to fix the pass D, because passing yards means squat, think again.
I don't think anyone is saying that. Quite a stetch there, Roy.

[htismaqe]

There is a saying, "It is what it is".

How many teams in the NFL that have won the SB finished in the bottom 10, heck, let's say bottom half in passing yardage allowed?

It is what it is - and it will burn us. The game was much closer than the score indicated, and if those drops weren't dropped it would have been a much closer ballgame. Might have even turned the tables.

Thanks to Gretz and Rand for blowing sunshine up our ass, but I'm not buying into it.

2004 Pats -- 17th in pass yards allowed
2003 Pats -- 17th in pass yards allowed
2002 Bucs -- 1st in pass yards allowed
2001 Pats -- 22nd in pass yards allowed
2000 Ravens -- 6th in pass yards allowed
1999 Rams -- 24th in pass yards allowed
1998 Broncos -- 28th in pass yards allowed
1997 Broncos -- 5th in pass yards allowed
1996 Packers -- 1st in pass yards allowed

[ROYC75]

I don't think anyone is saying that. Quite a stetch there, Roy.

There have been a few, esp. after the game Sunday in a few threads about giving up so many yards, but in the end we won because they didn't score. Basically the posters were happy with the passing yards because of the outcome was a win.

[jynni]

But if anybody here thinks that Gun is happy and will do nothing to fix the pass D, because passing yards means squat, think again.

I think we can all agree that Gun is happy we won and wants to limit the pass D as much as possible.
I don't think Gun would be really truely happy until the opposing O goes three-&-out every possession.

[Dartgod]

There have been a few, esp. after the game Sunday in a few threads about giving up so many yards, but in the end we won because they didn't score. Basically the posters were happy with the passing yards because of the outcome was a win.Oh BS. Show me one poster that said they are "happy" with the passing yards we gave up. Show me one poster who thinks that Gun is satisfied with our pass defense.

I'll save you the trouble. You can't.

[Brock]

Wow. We were watching entirely different games.

xoxo~
Gaz
Saw no signs of life from the Jets.


Coles dropped a sure TD. But a guy like Coles is going to get open and he's going to get his TDs, I don't care how good your defense is.

[ptlyon]

2004 Pats -- 17th in pass yards allowed
2003 Pats -- 17th in pass yards allowed
2002 Bucs -- 1st in pass yards allowed
2001 Pats -- 22nd in pass yards allowed
2000 Ravens -- 6th in pass yards allowed
1999 Rams -- 24th in pass yards allowed
1998 Broncos -- 28th in pass yards allowed
1997 Broncos -- 5th in pass yards allowed
1996 Packers -- 1st in pass yards allowed

Tanx. Das Rep.

[ROYC75]

Oh BS. Show me one poster that said they are "happy" with the passing yards we gave up. Show me one poster who thinks that Gun is satisfied with our pass defense.

I'll save you the trouble. You can't.

Oh jeepers, streching it a bit too far aren't we ? :hmmm: It has been discussed for days that passing yards means sqaut as long as the outcome is no points, or basically because the offense was in a catch up mode, being behind by 17 points / plus the injuries that figure into this.

FTR, I never said there was any posters who said Gun was happy about it,I was stating that " if " anybody here thinks ...... there is the difference.


I think we can all agree that Gun is happy we won and wants to limit the pass D as much as possible.

Did you forget to read this line ?


Many of the BB members are not concerned about the passing yards, I and along with a few select others are / is concerned about the passing yards.

[Dartgod]

It has been discussed for days that passing yards means sqaut as long as the outcome is no points, or basically because the offense was in a catch up mode, being behind by 17 points / plus the injuries that figure into this.This is somewhat the way I feel too. But, that's not what you said initially.
Let me remind you.Basically the posters were happy with the passing yards because of the outcome was a win.Being happy with the win and being indifferent to the passing yards given up are two totally different things.FTR, I never said there was any posters who said Gun was happy about it,I was stating that " if " anybody here thinks ...... there is the difference.




Did you forget to read this line ?
No, you didn't say in fact that there were any posters who actually said that. But the tone of your post indicates that you believe there are some that do think that.

I'm not going to get into semantics with you. I'm not sold on the defense yet. Too many years of mediocrity to sell me on one game. But I'm not alarmed at this point either. I like the direction we are going and hope to see improvement week by week.

[whoman69]

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/kanindex.htm
Interesting site. What I didn't know was that KC has a winning record against every team in the AFC West, including the former team from there Seattle.

Passing defense is not a good indicator of a defense because the rules are built against defense. If a team can shut down the run and force the pass, they may give up alot more yards, but the overall result will be good.

[WisChief]

I was being sarcastic.

We were thoroughly exposed in that Green Bay game. Jerome Woods saved us from getting beat, but after that anybody with half a brain knew our defense was Swiss cheese. Maz didn't make a bit of difference.

Oh yeah, I knew that. Something to do with, how do you describe it... Maz being the savior of our defense - not Chiefs Planet Lexicon, but something like that. ;)

Anyway... I kinda thought Jue was the one that saved us. :p