Trent without Roaf?

[Taco John]

Anybody still willing to make the argument that Trent is just as an effective quarterback without Roaf?

[Saulbadguy]

He's only had Roaf for what..half of one game?

Still has a better passer rating than Jake Plummer.

[Hammock Parties]

Anybody still willing to make the argument that Trent is just as an effective quarterback without Roaf?

Did you watch the Oakland game?

[Bowser]

Anybody still willing to make the argument that Trent is just as an effective quarterback without Roaf?

See: Chiefs vs Oakland

So that would be a yes.

[the Talking Can]

Yes, lord you are dumb.

How would any QB fare with rookie back-ups at both tackle positions?...um, yeah....

Plummber doesn't even run a passing offense, he's like Vick minus the running....bootleg, throw to WR running towards sideline or throw out of bounds...no reads, no decisions to make...

You can't figure Trent out because you've forgotten what real QB does.

[Hammock Parties]

How would any QB fare with rookie back-ups at both tackle positions?...um, yeah....


Not to take TJ's side, but neither Black, Bober or Sampson are rookies.

[Saulbadguy]

.

[yeti]

1 game and Trent Green sucks. Whatever, ride the high of destroying the Chiefs because there is a lot of football left to play.

[tk13]

After all these years, Taco still cannot grasp the simple concept of "pocket passer", despite the abundance of them in the league.

[Hammock Parties]

Where was this thread last week?

Retard.

[tk13]

After all these years, Taco still cannot grasp the simple concept of "pocket passer", despite the abundance of them in the league.
Actually, I take that back. He's a smart guy, he knows exact what he's doing. He just plays dumb on the internet to try to rile people.

[tk13]

So with that settled. What does everyone think about pie?

[Saulbadguy]

I love it. Although i'd have to say my least favorite is Apple. So boring.

Dixie/Derby/Oaks pie, the best.

[Dunit35]

still better than Jake the Fake Plummer..

[tk13]

I love it. Although i'd have to say my least favorite is Apple. So boring.

Dixie/Derby/Oaks pie, the best.
I think my favorite is pizza pie. Can't beat a good pizza pie. One of these days I'm gonna start a pizza chain where you make your own pie!

[Chiefshrink]

Is any QB effective without his stud Left tackle being replaced by inexperienced linemen? Not!

Taco, you gloat over your victory over a half healthy Chiefs team and see if we don't beat you by more than 20 on Dec 4.

[Taco John]

So then quarterback ratings are "it" then?

[Taco John]

See: Chiefs vs Oakland

So that would be a yes.



I guess I missed it... How many touchdowns did Trent throw against Oakland's pathetic defense?

[tk13]

So then quarterback ratings are "it" then?
QB ratings don't affect my pie decisions at all.

[Iowanian]

I can only wonder, how many INTs Joke PlummINT would have thrown under the same pressure.

[tk13]

I can only wonder, how many INTs Joke PlummINT would have thrown under the same pressure.
I bet he'd get a lot of creme pie caught in his facial hair.

[Bowser]

I guess I missed it... How many touchdowns did Trent throw against Oakland's pathetic defense?

None. He didn't have to throw any TDs.

[cdcox]

Anybody still willing to make the argument that Elway is just as an effective quarterback without Davis?

[Hammock Parties]

I guess I missed it... How many touchdowns did Trent throw against Oakland's pathetic defense?

None, but he had a fine game. He should have looked like complete shit according to you.

[Taco John]

I can only wonder, how many INTs Joke PlummINT would have thrown under the same pressure.



Against your defensive line, we'd never have any way to know...

Plus, Jake has the ability to scramble.

That said, I think that Jake would probably fare about as well as Green. Not much better. Not much worse.

[Taco John]

None. He didn't have to throw any TDs.



He would have if the Raiders weren't so self destructive.

[Taco John]

Anybody still willing to make the argument that Elway is just as an effective quarterback without Davis?


You bet. Without hesitation.

You could put the greatest quarterback to ever play the game on any team, and he's still going to be the greatest quarterback to ever play the game.

[tk13]

Who has two thumbs and thinks this thread is pointless.

THIS GUY.

[Taco John]

The Endelt in love thread. That's a pointless thread.

This thread has a point.

Arguing that Trent is a top five QB... Now *that* is pointless.

[cdcox]

You bet. Without hesitation.

You could put the greatest quarterback to ever play the game on any team, and he's still going to be the greatest quarterback to ever play the game.

Yeah, and Elway's SB record with and without Davis is purely coincidental. ROFL

Any QB -- check that, any player -- is dependent upon his team mates.

[Hammock Parties]

The Endelt in love thread. That's a pointless thread.

This thread has a point.

Arguing that Trent is a top five QB... Now *that* is pointless.

Last year after the Ravens game you said Trent was a top 10 QB.

That's all anyone here thinks.

[Taco John]

Yeah, and Elway's SB record with and without Davis is purely coincidental. ROFL

Any QB -- check that, any player -- is dependent upon his team mates.



The fact that Elway made it to the Superbowls he did with the cast he had around him is enough. The Broncos made it to those Superbowls because Elway elevated the team.

[tk13]

Sure it'd have a point, if the creator of said thread had an actual geniune point and wasn't trying to rile an audience, but instead creator of said thread wants to act like the Billy Madison of quarterback analysis.

So let's talk about pie.

[Taco John]

Last year after the Ravens game you said Trent was a top 10 QB.

That's all anyone here thinks.


At that time, he probably was. So far this year, however, there isn't much of an argument to support that.

[Taco John]

Sure it'd have a point, if the creator of said thread had an actual geniune point and wasn't trying to rile an audience, but instead creator of said thread wants to act like the Billy Madison of quarterback analysis.

So let's talk about pie.


Feel free... I'll get some takers though who want to discuss this. Who am I to stop you from plugging your thumbs into your ears and yelling "LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

[Hammock Parties]

At that time, he probably was. So far this year, however, there isn't much of an argument to support that.

WTF? He didn't suddenly get worse in the offseason.

Our passing game always starts slowly. You of all people should know that.

The Colts are having some problems getting their passing game going, too. Defenses is always head of offense this early in the year.

[Taco John]

For what it's worth, TK, this is a long standing argument that I've had. Trent Green's career was going nowhere quickly until Roaf came into the picture. That's the point.

[tk13]

For what it's worth, TK, this is a long standing argument that I've had. Trent Green's career was going nowhere quickly until Roaf came into the picture. That's the point.
It's stupid. You know it. We know it. Everybody knows it. Completely, utterly, insanely stupid. He put up similar numbers in Washington, with a horrible offensive line, and in St. Louis. Save his first season in Kansas City he has been extremely consistent in his production. If you are going to continue to do this inane crap, I am going to post inane crap on these threads. If you want quality posts, don't make dumbass troll threads, this act is boring and uncreative. Thank you.

[tk13]

http://www.wrhs.net/webdesignprojects/bdw_web_graphics/patriotic_mr_t.jpg

[Hammock Parties]

For what it's worth, TK, this is a long standing argument that I've had. Trent Green's career was going nowhere quickly until Roaf came into the picture. That's the point.

What a load of crap that is.

Trent Green had a fine season in Washington and played just fine when he came off the bench in St. Louis.

He had one bad year in KC throwing to Snoop Minnis and Chris Thomas.

Why don't you tell us how AWESOME those New Orleans Saints QBs were with Roaf protecting their blindside. I bet they all went to the Pro Bowl.

[tk13]

http://www.albany2go.com/fallarts2002/graphics/family_bigbird.jpg

[tk13]

http://www.theartofair.com/usrimage/corn%20on%20cob%201.jpg

[Taco John]

It's stupid. You know it. We know it. Everybody knows it. Completely, utterly, insanely stupid. He put up similar numbers in Washington, with a horrible offensive line, and in St. Louis. Save his first season in Kansas City he has been extremely consistent in his production. If you are going to continue to do this inane crap, I am going to post inane crap on these threads. If you want quality posts, don't make dumbass troll threads, this act is boring and uncreative. Thank you.



Who cares what he did in Washington? I'm talking about what he was doing in KC: leading the league in interceptions. He was going nowhere quickly before Roaf came into the picture. You know it. We know it. Everybody knows it. He was completely, utterly, insanely ineffective. He earned the nickname "TrINT," not from the media... not from opposing fans... But from his own fan base.

Trent is an average talent. Which is ok. With the passing rules the way they are, and a fine offensive line, an average talent can do well in this league.

[Hammock Parties]

Average number of interceptions Trent Green throws per year while Willie Roaf is protecting his blindside:

14

Average number of interceptions New Orleans Saints QBs threw per year while Willie Roaf was protecting their blindside:

21

[tk13]

.

[Hammock Parties]

I'm talking about what he was doing in KC: leading the league in interceptions. He was going nowhere quickly before Roaf came into the picture.

You're talking about ONE YEAR.

Here, let me help you.

Trent Green's career -

Good years - 5

Bad years - 1

If you really want to talk about ONE PLAYER helping Trent Green, talk about Eddie Kennison. As soon as he got here in late 2001, our passing game improved noticeably.

[Taco John]

Average number of interceptions Trent Green throws per year while Willie Roaf is protecting his blindside:

14

Average number of interceptions New Orleans Saints QBs threw per year while Willie Roaf was protecting their blindside:

21


That line of thought has so many logical fallacies that it's not even worth commenting on.

If you're making the argument that Trent is better than the New Orleans Saint's quarterbacks, you'll find agreement from me.

[Taco John]

We'll we'll see... Trent has to play another game without Roaf, it appears. And I get the feeling that there may be more of those to come.

Any predictions on how he fares against the Eagles defense?

[tk13]

..

[Mecca]

Tk you rule, you just made me laugh so hard soda went up my nose.

[Hammock Parties]

Trent Green has one interception in 2 and 3/4 games without Willie Roaf.

Shouldn't he have about five or six? Because Trent becomes TrINT without Roaf, right?

[tk13]

...

[Hammock Parties]

Any predictions on how he fares against the Eagles defense?

Depends if our coaching staff goes into the game treating Jordan Black like he's Willie Roaf.

It would also help if our receivers don't drop 7 passes.

[Taco John]

Trent Green has one interception in 2 and 3/4 games without Willie Roaf.

Shouldn't he have about five or six? Because Trent becomes TrINT without Roaf, right?


Not when your yard per pass average in a game is 4.6. Saunders is a smart man.

[Taco John]

Depends if our coaching staff goes into the game treating Jordan Black like he's Willie Roaf.

It would also help if our receivers don't drop 7 passes.



Indeed... It would also help if they had hands for feet on a few of those passes.

[cdcox]

For what it's worth, this is a long standing argument that I've had. John Elway's career was going oh-for-however-many until Davis came into the picture. That's the point.

SB passer rating without Davis: 49.5 choke aritst
SB passer rating with Davis: 89.0 Taco's hero

You can't argue one without admitting to the other. Roaf makes Green a much better QB. I admit it. Roaf makes Gree a much better QB. There I did it again.

Davis turned Fran Tarkenton into a Super Bowl winner. Explain to me what I'm missing.

[Hammock Parties]

Not when your yard per pass average in a game is 4.6. Saunders is a smart man.

Like Green even had time to throw downfield.

[Hammock Parties]

Indeed... It would also help if they had hands for feet on a few of those passes.

Not surprising, since most of the time he couldn't step into this throws.

[Taco John]

Davis turned Fran Tarkenton into a Super Bowl winner. Explain to me what I'm missing.


The fact that the Broncos would have never been in the earlier Superbowls if Elway hadn't elevated them to that point.

You're not going to get an argument from me that Davis made the Broncos a better team. I'm well aware of that.

But in those early years, Elway made the Broncos a Superbowl team. We had no other business being there except for the fact that Elway had the ability to raise the team to a whole different level.

[Taco John]

Not surprising, since most of the time he couldn't step into this throws.



That's odd... I don't remember you accepting those kinds of excuses for Jake. Don't you usually argue that Trent's the kind of quarterback that stands in the pocket, takes the hit, and delivers the accurate ball?

[Taco John]

I knew the game was won when Trent took that early timeout. He let the crowd know right then and there that we'd be rewarded for yelling our lungs out. That was a mistake. He looked like a young Drew Bledsoe the rest of the game. Deer in headlights...

[cdcox]

But in those early years, Elway made the Broncos a Superbowl team. We had no other business being there except for the fact that Elway had the ability to raise the team to a whole different level.

And everyone here is arguing that Trent is the sole reason the Chief's offense has had so much success in that last 3 years????

I think we all acknowledge the contributions of Priest, Gonzo, and the offensive line (which effectively includes Richardson and Dunn).

OH, you were making a straw man arguenment! :doh!:

[Hammock Parties]

Don't you usually argue that Trent's the kind of quarterback that stands in the pocket, takes the hit, and delivers the accurate ball?

Sure. Monday night he rarely had time to stand in the pocket.

[Rausch]

That's odd... I don't remember you accepting those kinds of excuses for Jake. Don't you usually argue that Trent's the kind of quarterback that stands in the pocket, takes the hit, and delivers the accurate ball?

If he's standing, yes.

If he's on his ass, no.

[Taco John]

And everyone here is arguing that Trent is the sole reason the Chief's offense has had so much success in that last 3 years????

I think we all acknowledge the contributions of Priest, Gonzo, and the offensive line (which effectively includes Richardson and Dunn).

OH, you were making a straw man arguenment! :doh!:


No. I was humoring your tangent.

[cdcox]

No. I was humoring your tangent.

OK, give me the user names of the posters that said Green was equally effective with our without Roaf as contended in your thread starter. With hundereds of regular posters, you should be able to come up with a list of 10 easily. Go ahead. I dare you.

[tk13]

....

[Taco John]

OK, give me the user names of the posters that said Green was equally effective with our without Roaf as contended in your thread starter. With hundereds of regular posters, you should be able to come up with a list of 10 easily. Go ahead. I dare you.


So then you're admitting that he's not nearly as effective without Roaf? I ask because this would be the first admission of such that I've seen.

[Valiant]

So do you come to the same conclusion on Culpepper, Peyton and Farve this year thru three games.. I knew they sucked all along... :rolleyes:

[cdcox]

So then you're admitting that he's not nearly as effective without Roaf? I ask because this would be the first admission of such that I've seen.

You go first. User names. Post em. Or retract the thread starter as pure BS.

[Valiant]

So then you're admitting that he's not nearly as effective without Roaf? I ask because this would be the first admission of such that I've seen.


The Chiefs choked on a whole during mondays game... Hell Pryce even said the Oline wasnt playing together.... What happens if Sammy Parker only drops 3passes that game... You are trying to make Green a culprit of being inept or back to 'Trint' when he played great given the fact that everybody else included the coaches packed it in before the game...

But agian, since you said previous years do not mean shit.. Do Peyton, Culpepper, Farve and your next 'elway' Plummer suck as bad or worse then Trent??? And if not why??? Besides Farve all are playing with their entire Oline not being hurt... Why is Plummer playing worse now with a tighter leash compared to last year??? Hell you guys got one win because we choked/suicide and one win from Schotty going conservative... Your really did not spank either one of us, more of both teams collapsing themselves...

[greg63]

Sure it'd have a point, if the creator of said thread had an actual geniune point and wasn't trying to rile an audience, but instead creator of said thread wants to act like the Billy Madison of quarterback analysis.

So let's talk about pie.

Well, I was fortunate enough to have missed the game Monday so I can't comment on that, but like you I love pie - especially pizza pie. Let me know when you open up your chain of pizza restaurants. I'm there!! ;)

[Taco John]

So do you come to the same conclusion on Culpepper, Peyton and Farve this year thru three games.. I knew they sucked all along... :rolleyes:


I've never been big on Culepepper. His size is impressive, his accuracy not so much. Favre has always been erratic. Defenses get up for Peyton.

[Taco John]

You go first. User names. Post em. Or retract the thread starter as pure BS.


Well, I'd like to determine if I should add you to the list. Are you admitting that he's not nearly as effective without Roaf? This would be the first admission of such on this board that I've seen.

[greg63]

..

ROFLROFLROFLROFL

[cdcox]

I've never been big on Culepepper. His size is impressive, his accuracy not so much. Favre has always been erratic. Defenses get up for Peyton.

Still waiting on all those user names who said Trent was equally effective with our without Roaf, as conteded by you in the tread starter.

[Taco John]

...and your next 'elway' Plummer ...



Never, ever put Plummer in the context of the 'next' Elway. That's moronic.

[Taco John]

Still waiting on all those user names who said Trent was equally effective with our without Roaf, as conteded by you in the tread starter.



And you'll continue to wait until you can answer the question I asked. I'll be happy to provide you with some names as soon as I'm certain I can cross you off the list.

[Hammock Parties]

What was Trent Green's best game this year? Can anyone tell me?

[cdcox]

Never, ever put Plummer in the context of the 'next' Elway. That's moronic.

So you admit the thread starter was pure BS, that CP poster never conteneded that Trent was equally effective with our without Roaf?

[Taco John]

So you admit the thread starter was pure BS, that CP poster never conteneded that Trent was equally effective with our without Roaf?



Where did I admit that?

[cdcox]

And you'll continue to wait until you can answer the question I asked. I'll be happy to provide you with some names as soon as I'm certain I can cross you off the list.

I certainly never said that. Go ahead and post the list of posters that did.

[cdcox]

Where did I admit that?

Your evasiveness in giving a list of all the poster who have stated that Trent Green is equally effective with or without Roaf certainly leads me to believe that you are unable to do so.

[Taco John]

I certainly never said that. Go ahead and post the list of posters that did.


Are you, or are you not admitting that Trent is not nearly as effective without Roaf?

[Valiant]

I've never been big on Culepepper. His size is impressive, his accuracy not so much. Favre has always been erratic. Defenses get up for Peyton.


Why is plummer playing so bad, his Oline is not hurt and running just like normal... I know you have the leash on tighter this year so why is he still doing so bad???

I mean comparing numbers, you guys were down point in the first two games so you would have to pass more but yet avg. per play is still less then KC. We have been running the hell out of the ball..

Trent has been sacked less then plummer and one is a highly mobile QB...

Trent has thrown for less ints, more yards higher completion percentage with a crappy Oline that will not get all its starters back untill week 6..

why is Plummer doing worse with a Offensive line that is fine, two great WR and a okay TE.. Offensive wise the Chiefs are playing like total crap because of injuries and shitty playcalling but we are still better stat wise across the board compared to the donks...

[cdcox]

No player is as effective without his best performing team mates. Green without Roaf is a good example. Elway without Davis is another. In fact, I cannot think of a single player in the NFL that is equally effective without their team mates.

Now, about that list of posters who did state that Trent Green is equally effective, with or without Roaf?

[Valiant]

Never, ever put Plummer in the context of the 'next' Elway. That's moronic.


Really Elway was the only reason why you made the superbowl, yes???



You were confident that Plummer would get you to the superbowl hell remember all the predictions... Plummer could pass, run, and lead your offense now that he had better players then the cardinals... Please tell me you did not forget all that talk the past couple of years...

[Valiant]

Are you, or are you not admitting that Trent is not nearly as effective without Roaf?


I think if they gameplaned different and called different non-roaf stylized plays, yes he would be as effective...

Are playcalling is what has been killing our Offense, they are acting like he is still in there...Trents first year he had to teach the Offense to his WR's, The guys we have here now run the right routes, just drop big catches... Trent is not the reason why our offense has fallen off, it is the coaches calling BS plays...

Seen one slant agiant the Donks, and it was not even a quick slant.. Everybody in the damn world knows we run left and without roaf we are still doing it... Having Roaf out should change our strategy, it has not for some unforeseen reason...

What would happen if you had a shitty ass left tackle that could not stop anybody on your line??? Shanny would gameplan around that so you did not have a dropoff... We dont...

[Taco John]

Why is plummer playing so bad, his Oline is not hurt and running just like normal... I know you have the leash on tighter this year so why is he still doing so bad???

Well, he's actually had only one bad game. But that aside, our offensive line is not as effective in pass protection as it is in the running game.

I mean comparing numbers, you guys were down point in the first two games so you would have to pass more but yet avg. per play is still less then KC. We have been running the hell out of the ball..

As have we. Like Trent without Roaf, Plummer is most certainly on a leash and is being asked to do less in the offense. For the most part, we're distributing the ball shorter, and keeping things simple. Of course, that changes when we face an inferior defense and Shanahan can trust Plummer a little more downfield. We saw that on Monday night.


Trent has been sacked less then plummer and one is a highly mobile QB...

Trents interior offensive line is much better at keeping a pocket than Plummer's interior defensive line.

[Hammock Parties]

our offense has fallen off

Sure hasn't.

Through three games last year: 18.3 ppg

Through three games this year: 20 ppg

[Taco John]

Really Elway was the only reason why you made the superbowl, yes???



You were confident that Plummer would get you to the superbowl hell remember all the predictions... Plummer could pass, run, and lead your offense now that he had better players then the cardinals... Please tell me you did not forget all that talk the past couple of years...



I still think Plummer is capable of winning a Superbowl. If Trent Dilfer, Mark Rypien, Kurt Warner, et al can do it... But I'd still never put him anywhere near the same class as Elway. That's moronic.

That said, Plummer has had some statistical success and even broken a few franchise passing markers that beat Elway. But stats aren't everything.

[cdcox]

Congrats, Valient, you just became the charter member of Taco's list...

If we've learned anything on the defensive side of the ball over the last 4 years, it is that you have to have good players. Play calling and scheme are one thing, but you have to have the horses. You don't replace a HOF tackle with a scrub and see zero effect.

[Taco John]

What would happen if you had a shitty ass left tackle that could not stop anybody on your line??? Shanny would gameplan around that so you did not have a dropoff... We dont...


Actually, no he wouldn't and it drives me crazy.

Shanahan has taken a back-up center and converted him into a left tackle fully expecting him to play up to the opportunity. We didn't change a thing offensively. We just plugged the guy in and expected him to perform up to the level.

[Rausch]

After 1 solid season and 1 great game you want to compare Plummer with Green's three stellar seasons?

That's asking to find a home in someone's sig.

[Taco John]

Congrats, Valient, you just became the charter member of Taco's list...

If we've learned anything on the defensive side of the ball over the last 4 years, it is that you have to have good players. Play calling and scheme are one thing, but you have to have the horses. You don't replace a HOF tackle with a scrub and see zero effect.



So do you agree that Trent is less effective without Roaf?

[Rausch]

Actually, no he wouldn't and it drives me crazy.

Shanahan has taken a back-up center and converted him into a left tackle fully expecting him to play up to the opportunity. We didn't change a thing offensively. We just plugged the guy in and expected him to perform up to the level.

I hear you.

Amazing how a staff can look genius one week and like a buch of drooling tards the next...

[Rausch]

So do you agree that Trent is less effective without Roaf?

I'd bet Plummer would have been more effective with Roaf as well.

What are we trying to prove here?...

[cdcox]

So do you agree that Trent is less effective without Roaf?

See post 86.

Still waiting for you list of posters. I'll check for it in the morning.

[tk13]

I'd bet Plummer would have been more effective with Roaf as well.

What are we trying to prove here?...
Absolutely nothing. Which was my point about 90 posts ago.

[Taco John]

I'd bet Plummer would have been more effective with Roaf as well.

What are we trying to prove here?...



How ironic that you answered your own question right before you asked it.

[Rausch]

How ironic that you answered your own question right before you asked it.

I'll go you one futher. You replace Trent Dilfer with Plummer and I bet he would have a super bowl ring right now.

Hey, this is fun.

If you replace Marty with someone who didn't SHRIVEL UP LIKE AN 80 YEAR OLD MAN'S NUTSACK IN A SNOWSTORM COME PLAYOFF TIME WE'D HAVE A SUPER BOWL VICTORY...

Ok, this game isn't helping any...

[Taco John]

I'll go you one futher. You replace Trent Dilfer with Plummer and I bet he would have a super bowl ring right now.



No way. Trent Dilfer isn't mobile enough to have success in our offense.

[Rausch]

No way. Trent Dilfer isn't mobile enough to have success in our offense.

You got that backwards Pavlov...

[tk13]

This has been your rocket science thread of the day.

Take one (1) HOF left tackle
Remove one (1) HOF left tackle
Put one (1) untested left tackle in place

Watch results.

Well stick a fork up my butt and call me Dwight, of course there's going to be a drop off in production. Taco has taken something maddeningly simple, and gotten you people into a 100 post argument about it. Really. Come on now people.

[Taco John]

Absolutely nothing. Which was my point about 90 posts ago.


Why in the world do you keep checking into this thread?

[Taco John]

You got that backwards Pavlov...



Come again?

[Rausch]

Why in the world do you keep checking into this thread?

I've already trapped all the cats in the neighborhood...

[Taco John]

Taco has taken something maddeningly simple, and gotten you people into a 100 post argument about it. Really. Come on now people.


Dude, the day crew hasn't even gotten a hold of this one.

[tk13]

Why in the world do you keep checking into this thread?
Why do you make these same asinine points over and over again?

Because you can.

I'll post wherever I want, thank you.

[Rausch]

Come again?

Subtract Dilfer & Dumber from B-More.

Add one Plummer.

Results still = super bowl win.

(Pavlov made noise and watched mouths foam up...made him famous.)

[Taco John]

Why do you make these same asinine points over and over again?

Because you can.



The point that Trent Green and Jake Plummer are similarly successful quarterbacks is hardly an assinine point. What's assinine is that anybody thinks that Trent Green is significantly better than Plummer.

[tk13]

The point that Trent Green and Jake Plummer are similarly successful quarterbacks is hardly an assinine point. What's assinine is that anybody thinks that Trent Green is significantly better than Plummer.
http://psxmedia.ign.com/media/news/image/horsebutt.jpg

[Rausch]

What's assinine is that anybody thinks that Trent Green is significantly better than Plummer.

You've got to be kidding me.

I can understand saying Plummer has my physical talent. He does.

But it's like comparing Jeff George and Steve Deberg in their primes. No way in hell would I take George over Deberg.

(And I'm not trying to say Plummer is a pr!ck, just that he's talented but makes costly mistakes wherever he goes...)

[Taco John]

You've got to be kidding me.

I can understand saying Plummer has my physical talent. He does.

But it's like comparing Jeff George and Steve Deberg in their primes. No way in hell would I take George over Deberg.

(And I'm not trying to say Plummer is a pr!ck, just that he's talented but makes costly mistakes wherever he goes...)



Statistically, Trent (since joining the Chiefs) and Plummer (since joining the Broncos) are similar. The difference, IMO, is that Trent has better interior blocking and superior blind side protection. You yourself just said that "I'd bet Plummer would have been more effective with Roaf as well."

So which part do I have to be kidding you about?

[Rausch]

Statistically, Trent (since joining the Chiefs) and Plummer (since joining the Broncos) are similar. The difference, IMO, is that Trent has better interior blocking and superior blind side protection. You yourself just said that "I'd bet Plummer would have been more effective with Roaf as well."

So which part do I have to be kidding you about?

Plummer has never turned that corner. He's never elevated himself to a positive...

[Chiefs_Fan_n_64081]

How ironic that you answered your own question right before you asked it.
That's not the correct use of the word.

It's bad enough KC fans are having to teach you about football.
Do we have to teach you the language as well?

[greg63]

...So does this mean the pie discussion is over??? :(

[Chiefs_Fan_n_64081]

...So does this mean the pie discussion is over??? :(
Chocolate pudding pie with mounds of topping.....

[Rausch]

...So does this mean the pie discussion is over??? :(

If you don't like Strawberry-Rhubarb, yes...

[tk13]

...So does this mean the pie discussion is over??? :(
NEVER! Let's get come coconut creme in here.

[Valiant]

Statistically, Trent (since joining the Chiefs) and Plummer (since joining the Broncos) are similar. The difference, IMO, is that Trent has better interior blocking and superior blind side protection. You yourself just said that "I'd bet Plummer would have been more effective with Roaf as well."

So which part do I have to be kidding you about?


Not really no, Trent did fine before he came to KC whereas Plummer did not... Plummer has had a career of being a underachiever and throwing ints... Trent had one bad year that still does not even compare to Plummers bad years...

If you guys would have kept Greise you would have had a playoff win by now, instead you have Plummer and his constant eneptness.... We do not have to leash Trent, he might have a bad game every now and then but that is the norm with most QB's not named: Plummer, Couch, Harrington, Boller, and any other underachiever...

[greg63]

Chocolate pudding pie with mounds of topping..... If you don't like Strawberry-Rhubarb, yes... NEVER! Let's get come coconut creme in here.

Yum, yummy!! All sounds great to me! I love pumpkin!

[stumppy]

I thought I would ck the stats on G & P.
Career stats are interesting. Pretty similar numbers . With one glaring exception.


Green has 134 TD's with 83 Int's.

Plummer Has 134 TD's with 144 Int's.


All things being equal, I'll take the guy who throws almost half as many Int's as the other guy.

rochambeau :rockon: :titus: :D

[Rausch]

Yum, yummy!! All sounds great to me! I love pumpkin!

Find an ugly woman, AND MAKE 'ER YER' WIFE!

[greg63]

Well the pie has been great, but gotta go to bed. Good night Planet!

[greg63]

Find an ugly woman, AND MAKE 'ER YER' WIFE!

Oops, too late I've already married a beautiful woman. If only you had given me this advice 22 years ago. :D

[Hammock Parties]

Trent Green without Willie Roaf:

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1949/parker14ydcatch1ik.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[Pants]

Shields almost gets owned on that play.

[Rausch]

Oops, too late I've already married a beautiful woman. If only you had given me this advice 22 years ago. :D

Because I consider you a friend I'll give you some advice:

NEVER take any from me...

[Taco John]

I thought I would ck the stats on G & P.
Career stats are interesting. Pretty similar numbers . With one glaring exception.


Green has 134 TD's with 83 Int's.

Plummer Has 134 TD's with 144 Int's.


All things being equal, I'll take the guy who throws almost half as many Int's as the other guy.

rochambeau :rockon: :titus: :D


Jake's numbers in Arizona have no meaning to me. Trent's numbers in Washington hold similar value. What good are those numbers now that they are in a completely different system on a completely different team with completely different coaches and completely different teammates?

Examining the success they've had with the team that they're currently on, another picture emerges:

In his 5th season with the Chiefs, Trent Green has played in 67 games. In that time, Trent has thrown 67 interceptions, making his per game average of interceptions thrown at 1 interception per game.

In his third season with the Broncos, Jake Plummer has played in 30 games. In that time, Jake has thrown 30 inerceptions, making his per game average of interceptions thrown at 1 interception per game.

In 67 games with the Chiefs, Trent Green has thrown 95 Touchdowns for a per game average of 1.41 touchdowns per game in KC's high powered offense. In your heart, you believe that Trent Green is worlds beyond Jake Plummer in scoring production. Brace yourself.

In 30 games with the Broncos, Jake Plummer has thrown 44 Touchdowns for a per game average of 1.46 touchdowns per game! That's five percent better than Trent Green on scoring production through the passing game!

But that's not where it ends...

In 67 games, Trent Green has scored (both through the air and on the ground with his feet) 98 touchdowns to raise his scoring average to 1.46 touchdowns per game... With that he's even with Plummer's scoring production through the air. But let's examine where Plummer is at...

In 30 games, Plummer has scored 48 touchdowns (both air and feet) to raise his scoring average to 1.6 touchdowns per game! That's almost a FULL FIFTEEN PERCENT better than Trent Green.

So I know what's next. "Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can prove anything with stats." Damn straight. I just proved that Jake Plummer is a more effective quarterback than Trent Green.

But stats aren't everything, and I acknowledge that. Which is why my take has been that Trent Green and Jake Plummer are similarly effective quarterbacks. I wouldn't say one is any better than the other. I *would* say that Trent has had the benefit of some better circumstances than Jake Plummer. I'll never forgive Mike Shanahan for letting Roaf slip away to KC.

As far as anyone talking about pie and trying to pass off the take that "Taco has no point." All I can say in the middle of this ownage is that your source of frustration is the fact that I *do* have a point, and that you're not able to counter it with anything but whining and pictures of pie.

[BigMeatballDave]

Typical Tj thread...

[Taco John]

Typical Tj thread...


I agree.

Bait. Set. Catch. GUT!

[Chiefs_Fan_n_64081]

I agree.

Bait. Set. Catch. GUT!
Go to bed Taco, you have to get your rest.
This way you can be fresh tomorrow, when you are drooling and yammering to yourself, while making pointless conjecture about this and that.
BTW do you mind terribly if I mail you an orange and blue monkey suit that you can wear while you do these very important things?

[Hammock Parties]

As much as I hate to say it, TJ is right. His numbers pretty much seal the deal.

Let's all get to hating on Trent then...obviously he's been fooling us these last three years.

Bastard!

[tk13]

What good are those numbers now that they are in a completely different system on a completely different team with completely different coaches...

Whoaaaaa hold yer horsies there. Trent played under Mike Martz in Washington, which is why he ended up going with Mike Martz to..... St. Louis! Where he played with Dick Vermeil, who adopted a lot of Mike Martz's offensive philosophies, some of which came with fellow coaches Dick Vermeil and Al Saunders tooooooo.... Kansas City! To say Trent hasn't had a common thread in his NFL stops is just plain unfactual.

[Pants]

Whoaaaaa hold yer horsies there. Trent played under Mike Martz in Washington, which is why he ended up going with Mike Martz to..... St. Louis! Where he played with Dick Vermeil, who adopted a lot of Mike Martz's offensive philosophies, some of which came with fellow coaches Dick Vermeil and Al Saunders tooooooo.... Kansas City! To say Trent hasn't had a common thread in his NFL stops is just plain unfactual.
Besides, we are talking about who's the better QB on their own merits, by providing that argument, Taco just admits that a QB performs only as well as his team lets him, making his whole post "proving" that Jake is better than Trent irrelevant. Taco, you can't expect your QB to score a lot of touchdowns when your running back gets 30+ TDs. QB rating is more important in QB comparison than the number of TD's scored.

Nobody has been owned on this thread, it's common knowledge that Trent is a better QB than Plummer in some respects and that Plummer is better in others. Trent can't run a bootleg or juke out a LB, but he also wouldn't throw a ball with his offhand. Who do I want on my team? Trent Green. He is a much better leader and is pure class. Jake on the other hand, flipped you and your friends off.

[Taco John]

Whoaaaaa hold yer horsies there. Trent played under Mike Martz in Washington, which is why he ended up going with Mike Martz to..... St. Louis! Where he played with Dick Vermeil, who adopted a lot of Mike Martz's offensive philosophies, some of which came with fellow coaches Dick Vermeil and Al Saunders tooooooo.... Kansas City! To say Trent hasn't had a common thread in his NFL stops is just plain unfactual.

Even with those numbers factored in, it doesn't change the analysis that much. 5 percent this way or 5 percent the other.

[Taco John]

...making his whole post "proving" that Jake is better than Trent irrelevant.

I never made the case that Jake is better than Trent. I only presented the numbers that showed he's a more effective scorer. My "wild and crazy" argument is that Jake and Trent are similarly productive quarterbacks.

Taco, you can't expect your QB to score a lot of touchdowns when your running back gets 30+ TDs. QB rating is more important in QB comparison than the number of TD's scored.

With a passer rating and fifty cents and a time machine, you could get a cup of coffee. The ratings are completely worthless when comparing two quarterbacks in a different system.

Nobody has been owned on this thread.

People who think Trent is a much more effective quarterback than Jake Plummer have been owned on this thread. People who think they are two similarly effective quarterbacks have not. Which are you? Do you think that Trent is a much more effective quarterback? Or do you think that they are similarly effective? I don't want to get you mixed up with the people who got owned.

[Pants]

I never made the case that Jake is better than Trent. I only presented the numbers that showed he's a more effective scorer. My "wild and crazy" argument is that Jake and Trent are similarly productive quarterbacks.
lol dude, you should have been a politician. No matter what anybody's retort to your statment is, you can make yourself sound "more right". I commend you on that, however...
So I know what's next. "Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can prove anything with stats." Damn straight. I just proved that Jake Plummer is a more effective quarterback than Trent Green.

[Taco John]

...and right after that...

But stats aren't everything, and I acknowledge that. Which is why my take has been that Trent Green and Jake Plummer are similarly effective quarterbacks. I wouldn't say one is any better than the other. I *would* say that Trent has had the benefit of some better circumstances than Jake Plummer. I'll never forgive Mike Shanahan for letting Roaf slip away to KC.



So answer the question:

Do you think that Trent is a much more effective quarterback? Or do you think that they are similarly effective?

[Hammock Parties]

When was the last time Trent Green threw 2 touchdowns and 9 interceptions in a 4 game span?

I think that's the key difference.

[Pants]

So answer the question:

Do you think that Trent is a much more effective quarterback? Or do you think that they are similarly effective?

Didn't you read my post? I don't know what effective means. You can't say Trent is less effective because he didn't score as many TD's. That's Priest's job on our team. All I know is that I'd rather have Trent, and that's my honest answer. I don't want to know what it feels like when your QB flips you off.

[tk13]

Furthermore, as I like to do, let's delve a little deeper into those "stats". Since this is the easiest way to do it, let's look at the last 3 years, we will play Taco's game, and look at Jake's career solely as a Bronco.

To start off here, we'll look at the average of the last three seasons, compare how Trent and Jake have performed in the same division, since that's what Taco is truly interested in... how effective they've been against each other. What we're going to do is look at the stats, but take a more in-depth look. Sure we can make blanket statements over a portion of a career, but I think to truly determine "effectiveness", we need to look at how some of these "statistics" were obtained in the course of a game.

First of all, I want to look at Trent's 3 year average on third down passing, compared to our good friend Jake Plummer. "Effective" quarterbacks need to score points, but they also need to help actually get their team in scoring range by moving the chains. Over the last 3 years (going back to '03, when Plummer joined the Broncos):

Trent on 3rd down: 91.2 rating, 61% passing, 17 TD, 8 INT
Jake on 3rd down: 75.9 rating, 52% passing, 13 TD, 8 INT

It appears that Trent is more "effective" on 3rd down with his back against the wall.

You look at that and say, "Well tk, is that all you got?" Most certainly not. We need to find more examples of these guys being "effective" when they have to be. We need to know just when these guys are effective. You look at your QB and you think "Man, I want someone who is consistent, who is going to be there no matter the situation." Let's look at how these guys perform not only in the 1st half, but in the 2nd half.

Once again, a 3 year average, this is Jake's entire Bronco career:

Trent Green
1st half: 94.6 rating, 64% passing, 28 TD, 14 INT
2nd half: 90.3 rating, 64% passing, 24 TD, 16 INT

Jake Plummer
1st half: 99.4 rating, 61% passing, 34 TD, 12 INT
2nd half: 68.5 rating, 57% passing, 10 TD, 18 INT

These are Jake's statistics with the Broncos, mind you. Both sets of stats represent both players general career trends. With Trent Green, you "effectively" get the same QB in the first half that you do in the 2nd half. With Jake Plummer, even in Mike Shanahan's legendary offensive system, with a great running game, and top 5 defense, he is not very "effective" in the 2nd half of football games. So while over Jake's Bronco career there are indeed some similar TD and INT statistics, there's only one QB you can count on being "effective" in both the 1st and 2nd halves, and that would be Trent Green.

[Taco John]

I'll let you guys regroup and try again. The shell shock has clearly not worn off.

[Pants]

Furthermore, as I like to do, let's delve a little deeper into those "stats". Since this is the easiest way to do it, let's look at the last 3 years, we will play Taco's game, and look at Jake's career solely as a Bronco.

To start off here, we'll look at the average of the last three seasons, compare how Trent and Jake have performed in the same division, since that's what Taco is truly interested in... how effective they've been against each other. What we're going to do is look at the stats, but take a more in-depth look. Sure we can make blanket statements over a portion of a career, but I think to truly determine "effectiveness", we need to look at how some of these "statistics" were obtained in the course of a game.

First of all, I want to look at Trent's 3 year average on third down passing, compared to our good friend Jake Plummer. "Effective" quarterbacks need to score points, but they also need to help actually get their team in scoring range by moving the chains. Over the last 3 years (going back to '03, when Plummer joined the Broncos):

Trent on 3rd down: 91.2 rating, 61% passing, 17 TD, 8 INT
Jake on 3rd down: 75.9 rating, 52% passing, 13 TD, 8 INT

It appears that Trent is more "effective" on 3rd down with his back against the wall.

You look at that and say, "Well tk, is that all you got?" Most certainly not. We need to find more examples of these guys being "effective" when they have to be. We need to know just when these guys are effective. You look at your QB and you think "Man, I want someone who is consistent, who is going to be there no matter the situation." Let's look at how these guys in the 1st half, and in the 2nd half.

Once again, a 3 year average, this is Jake's Bronco career:

Trent Green
1st half: 94.6 rating, 64% passing, 28 TD, 14 INT
2nd half: 90.3 rating, 64% passing, 24 TD, 16 INT

Jake Plummer
1st half: 99.4 rating, 61% passing, 34 TD, 12 INT
2nd half: 68.5 rating, 57% passing, 10 TD, 18 INT

These are Jake's statistics with the Broncos, mind you. Both sets of stats represent both players general career trends. With Trent Green, you "effectively" get the same QB in the first half that you do in the 2nd half. With Jake Plummer, even in Mike Shanahan's legendary offensive system, with a great running game, and top 5 defense, he is not very "effective" in the 2nd half of football games. So while over Jake's Bronco career there are indeed some similar TD and INT statistics, there's only one QB you can count on being "effective" in both the 1st and 2nd halves, and that would be Trent Green.

Nicely done. ROFL

And Taco, why would you say something trollish like that when were just starting to finally have a civilized conversation which consisted of more than "OMFG u just got pwnd!1"?

[tk13]

I'll let you guys regroup and try again. The shell shock has clearly not worn off.
Shell shocked? Why would I be shell shocked? I'm satisfied, my team has a QB that shows up in the 2nd half.

[Hammock Parties]

2 touchdowns and 9 interceptions in 4 games....

[Taco John]

Furthermore, as I like to do, let's delve a little deeper into those "stats". Since this is the easiest way to do it, let's look at the last 3 years, we will play Taco's game, and look at Jake's career solely as a Bronco.

To start off here, we'll look at the average of the last three seasons, compare how Trent and Jake have performed in the same division, since that's what Taco is truly interested in... how effective they've been against each other. What we're going to do is look at the stats, but take a more in-depth look. Sure we can make blanket statements over a portion of a career, but I think to truly determine "effectiveness", we need to look at how some of these "statistics" were obtained in the course of a game.

First of all, I want to look at Trent's 3 year average on third down passing, compared to our good friend Jake Plummer. "Effective" quarterbacks need to score points, but they also need to help actually get their team in scoring range by moving the chains. Over the last 3 years (going back to '03, when Plummer joined the Broncos):

Trent on 3rd down: 91.2 rating, 61% passing, 17 TD, 8 INT
Jake on 3rd down: 75.9 rating, 52% passing, 13 TD, 8 INT

It appears that Trent is more "effective" on 3rd down with his back against the wall.

You look at that and say, "Well tk, is that all you got?" Most certainly not. We need to find more examples of these guys being "effective" when they have to be. We need to know just when these guys are effective. You look at your QB and you think "Man, I want someone who is consistent, who is going to be there no matter the situation." Let's look at how these guys in the 1st half, and in the 2nd half.

Once again, a 3 year average, this is Jake's Bronco career:

Trent Green
1st half: 94.6 rating, 64% passing, 28 TD, 14 INT
2nd half: 90.3 rating, 64% passing, 24 TD, 16 INT

Jake Plummer
1st half: 99.4 rating, 61% passing, 34 TD, 12 INT
2nd half: 68.5 rating, 57% passing, 10 TD, 18 INT

These are Jake's statistics with the Broncos, mind you. Both sets of stats represent both players general career trends. With Trent Green, you "effectively" get the same QB in the first half that you do in the 2nd half. With Jake Plummer, even in Mike Shanahan's legendary offensive system, with a great running game, and top 5 defense, he is not very "effective" in the 2nd half of football games. So while over Jake's Bronco career there are indeed some similar TD and INT statistics, there's only one QB you can count on being "effective" in both the 1st and 2nd halves, and that would be Trent Green.

Nice. Someone able to make a case.

Good analysis. As far as third downs, my argument in a nutshell is that Plummer's figures would be similar to Trents if he had Willie Roaf on his blind side. "How many people in NFL history can be like Willie Roaf? There's maybe two or three guys in the history of the league that are on his level. I mean, there's not a lot of people that can do what Willie does." -Jordan Black


As far as first half vs. second half, I admit that Trent is more consistent. However, at the end of the game, his numbers are similar to Jake's in both Touchdowns and Interceptions.

[Taco John]

Nicely done. ROFL

And Taco, why would you say something trollish like that when were just starting to finally have a civilized conversation which consisted of more than "OMFG u just got pwnd!1"?



Because you and GoChiefs came up with weak sauce. Tk, however, did not.

[Hammock Parties]

2 touchdowns and 9 interceptions in 4 games....

[Pants]

Because you and GoChiefs came up with weak sauce. Tk, however, did not.

lol, dude, your TD comparison sucked, Trent is NOT going to score as many TD's as Plummer because that's what Priest is for. It doesn't make Trent any less effective than Plummer. I'm surprised you didn't see that on your own.

[Hammock Parties]

lol, dude, your TD comparison sucked, Trent is NOT going to score as many TD's as Plummer because that's what Priest is for. It doesn't make Trent any less effective than Plummer. I'm surprised you didn't see that on your own.

It's completely logical. Certainly didn't make Troy Aikman any less of an effective QB when Emmitt Smith was scoring all the touchdowns.

[Braincase]

I think Trent is most effective when he has Roaf, and doesn't receive a dirty shot early and get a hand stomped on... but then again, at least that time a flag was thrown.

Funny thing... I didn't hear about Shanahan getting any $20,000 fines from the league this week. I guess he was happy with refs this week.

I also have a pretty good idea what happened to Larry Johnson's playbook...

[penguinz]

So with that settled. What does everyone think about pie?
Nothing beats a good Key Lime Pie.

[greg63]

Because I consider you a friend I'll give you some advice:

NEVER take any from me...

:) lol, I'll take your advice...this time. :D

[greg63]

Nothing beats a good Key Lime Pie.

Lime pie is good, but don't care much for cherry.

[Chiefs Pantalones]

I still think Plummer is capable of winning a Superbowl. If Trent Dilfer, Mark Rypien, Kurt Warner, et al can do it... But I'd still never put him anywhere near the same class as Elway. That's moronic.

That said, Plummer has had some statistical success and even broken a few franchise passing markers that beat Elway. But stats aren't everything.

ROFL

Seriously?

[Braincase]

ROFL

Seriously?

Only way Plummer gets to a Superbowl is if the Broncos have home field advantage throughout the playoffs... and the Broncos have yet to prove they can win a road game this season.

[CupidStunt]

Trent is an average talent. Which is ok. With the passing rules the way they are, and a fine offensive line, an average talent can do well in this league.

Jake is a no-talent, what's your point?

There's more to quarterbacking than bootlegging to one side and throwing an INT.

Green has accuracy and smarts that Plummer can't muster up on a game of Madden 2006.

[CupidStunt]

Nicely done. ROFL

And Taco, why would you say something trollish like that when were just starting to finally have a civilized conversation which consisted of more than "OMFG u just got pwnd!1"?

Because he can't.

[Rausch]

Oops, too late I've already married a beautiful woman. If only you had given me this advice 22 years ago. :D

Yer fine. In another 22 years you'll both be ugly... :)

[TEX]

Anybody still willing to make the argument that Trent is just as an effective quarterback without Roaf?

I don't think most here felt that way. Your bet line should also include a bit about in Roaf's absense, Trent was having to play without his two starting Tackles. Black, our starting RT because Sampson is out, was moved to LT, and Bober a back-up Guard, was playing RT. So, I'd bet that no QB is that great with both tackles missing...

Now, is Trent a better QB than Plummer - Absolutely.

[TEX]

ROFL

Seriously?

Yep. Plummer threw for more yards than Elway ever did in a single season. Course, so has Trent.

[greg63]

Yer fine. In another 22 years you'll both be ugly... :)

ROFLROFLROFLROFL

[Red Dawg]

The entire offense is less effective without Roaf. Trent is not less effective, the running game is.

[LiL stumppy]

Woah.LOL. After all these season he still thinks Plummer is better than Trent.I could just imagine how good Jake would be without his two starting tackles.