WTF has happened to Gun?

[Mr. Kotter]

I got back home from the game about 1 am this morning....so I haven't had time to read the board yet, but I gotta get this off my chest.

Anyone else think Dick has fuggin' neutered Gun??? :cuss:

I know, I know....these are different players, but GUN is NOT coaching the way he used to coach. Where's the press coverage, the man-to-man, the blitzing, and the balls-to-the-wall/pin-your-ears-back and kill-the QB defenses we were used to back then?

I think Gun was sooooo anxious to come back to KC, he quickly agreed to whatever stipulations CP placed on him: and, to me....it looks like Dick has veto authority.

DICK: "Let the guy do his friggin' job!!!" :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

It can't hurt; your way isn't working, so why the HELL, not?!

[Mr. Kotter]

Okay, I feel better.

But just a little. :banghead:

[Bowser]

Gun is trying to implement his defense with assistants that are Robinson catoffs, only keeping a job due to Vermeil.

Gun needs his own staff that coaches defense the way he does.

[Hammock Parties]

I hate to say it, but this might be a better team with Gunther as head coach hiring all his assistants.

[jspchief]

Gun is trying to implement his defense with assistants that are Robinson catoffs, only keeping a job due to Vermeil.

Gun needs his own staff that coaches defense the way he does.Bullsh*t. I'm tired of that excuse. Gunther appears to be just as incompetent as any of the position coaches.

What has Gunther ever done without #58 on the field?

[Amnorix]

I obviously don't know hte situation as well as you guys, but I had thought that DV ran the offense and let Lovie Smith do what he wanted with the defense out in St. Louis.

Since Gun has a long and proven track record as a DC, and is a former HC, I would think that he would use the same formula in KC.

[Mr. Kotter]

I hate to say it, but this might be a better team with Gunther as head coach hiring all his assistants.

I think there is something to the idea he'd be better off with his own assistants, but I'm tellin' you....I'm convinced someone is NOT letting him do what he would want to with what he has.

I think the way he's handled Dexter and the loyalty to Hicks is evidence DV is pullin' the strings....I think if Gun had a real choice, both of those guys would be playin' much less of a role than they are. :shake:

[jspchief]

I think there is something to the idea he'd be better off with his own assistants, but I'm tellin' you....I'm convinced someone is NOT letting him do what he would want to with what he has.

I think the way he's handled Dexter and the loyalty to Hicks is evidence DV is pullin' the strings....I think if Gun had a real choice, both of those guys would be playin' much less of a role than they are. :shake:So who's making the calls? Is DV actually calling the defense?

Gun needs to ignore what DV wants and just send in the calls he wants. What's Vermeil going to do? Fire him? It certainly isn't going to make our D any worse if Gun goes against DV's wishes.

[Brock]

It looks a lot easier when you have Derrick Thomas and James Hasty.

[Mr. Kotter]

Bullsh*t. I'm tired of that excuse. Gunther appears to be just as incompetent as any of the position coaches.

What has Gunther ever done without #58 on the field?

Gun's teams have played some pretty good defense without DT....here and in Oakland. His whole demeanor seems to have been neutered if you ask me....I'm givin' him the benefit of the doubt, that DV's loyalties and veto authority, are the issue here.

"Soft" coverage, and zone most of the time? WTF is with that? :shake:

I think DV has Gunther's balls in a jar on his desk. :(

Dick? Give 'em back to the man!!! :cuss:

[Mr. Kotter]

It looks a lot easier when you have Derrick Thomas and James Hasty.

I agree that helps. But THIS....the whole approach/attitude/demeanor are ENTIRELY different....:shrug:

[Mr. Kotter]

So who's making the calls? Is DV actually calling the defense?

Gun needs to ignore what DV wants and just send in the calls he wants. What's Vermeil going to do? Fire him? It certainly isn't going to make our D any worse if Gun goes against DV's wishes.

I agree Gun needs to do what he wants, and ignore DV as much as he can get away with....if he got fired under those circumstances, he should wear it as a badge of honor IMO.

I doubt that DV is "calling" the Defense....I do think he's placed more than a few stipulations and constraints on what Gun is doing though. I could be wrong....

DV has probably established "parameters" for Gun.....and probably has more say in personnel decisions than is desireable.

[unlurking]

I'd like to see Gun stay in the box so he can see the entire field. I think we brought in enough guys like Sammy and Surtain to keep the emotion up when playing well, but Gun needs a bird's eye view to make adjustments.

[Mr. Kotter]

I'd like to see Gun stay in the box so he can see the entire field. I think we brought in enough guys like Sammy and Surtain to keep the emotion up when playing well, but Gun needs a bird's eye view to make adjustments.

Maybe. It couldn't hurt, I guess. Our "adjustments" (or lack thereof) have been striking...

[RedandGold]

I don't think that Gun's been neutered, it's just that he still doesn't have the players on the field to play his style of defense.

His style is predicated upon getting pressure from the front four and letting the LBs wreak havoc while the corners play man coverage.

Right now, we aren't getting any push whatsoever from the DT position, and our DEs are getting tied up most of the time. Without pressure on the QB, the LBs are playing more coverage and the safteties are being held back to help McCleon since he isn't physical enough to play the man coverage that Gun wants.

I look back to the Jets game before Sims went out, and we were playing textbook Gunther defense. I hate to give Sims too much credit, but he was finally beginning to look like the guy we thought we drafted at #6.

[Mr. Kotter]

.... I hate to give Sims too much credit, but he was finally beginning to look like the guy we thought we drafted at #6.

Could be something to that too. I just think it's more than that....

Any "official" word on Sim's injury prognosis yet??? :hmmm:

[Eleazar]

It's his job to get players to execute. He's not doing it.

Last year, I was willing to give him an out, because he didn't have players. This year we got everything on our wishlist and it had made little to no difference.

We could easily be 0-4. If you remove the Jets and Raiders from our schedule and exchange them for two decent teams like Denver/Philadelphia, we probably would be.

Forget the position coaches. It's a copout. Gunther apologists, what is going to be the excuse if we play the whole year giving up 30 points like we have in each of the past 2 games? I'm sure it will be the offense's fault somehow...

Gunther needs to get these guys going. It's his job and he's not doing it right now. We got him all the players he could have hoped for in the offseason. Gunther has NO EXCUSE this year.

We've got 2 weeks to get ready for a pathetic Washington offense, playing at our house, when we should be healthy again in most respects. If they give up 30 points to the Redskins...

[RedThat]

It's his job to get players to execute. He's not doing it.

Last year, I was willing to give him an out, because he didn't have players. This year we got everything on our wishlist and it had made little to no difference.

We could easily be 0-4. If you remove the Jets and Randy Moss and the Raiders from our schedule and exchange them for two decent teams like Denver/Philadelphia, we probably would be.

Forget the position coaches. It's a copout. Gunther apologists, what is going to be the excuse if we play the whole year giving up 30 points like we have in each of the past 2 games? I'm sure it will be the offense's fault somehow...

Gunther needs to get these guys going. It's his job and he's not doing it right now. We got him all the players he could have hoped for in the offseason. Gunther has NO EXCUSE this year.

We've got 2 weeks to get ready for a pathetic Washington offense, playing at our house, when we should be healthy again in most respects. If they give up 30 points to the Redskins...

I dont think all the emphasis should be on Gunther. Vermeil is a big reason why our defense is soft

[Eleazar]

I dont think all the emphasis should be on Gunther. Vermeil is a big reason why our defense is soft

BS. Vermeil isn't the defensive coordinator. We brought Gunther in to get the defense back into shape, and so far he's little better than Greg Robinson was.

By what basis do you say that Vermeil is to blame for the defense?

[Mr. Kotter]

... Gunther apologists, what is going to be the excuse if we play the whole year giving up 30 points like we have in each of the past 2 games?

...Gunther has NO EXCUSE this year...

I can't believe that WILL happen...but if it does; you are right. Otherwise, he should resign at the end of the year.

[Mr. Kotter]

BS. Vermeil isn't the defensive coordinator. We brought Gunther in to get the defense back into shape, and so far he's little better than Greg Robinson was.

By what basis do you say that Vermeil is to blame for the defense?

I see DV's fingerprints all over this "defense"....he has more input than he should have, IMO.

The buck may stop w/Gun; I think it's time for Gun to tell DV to "Go to hell, and let me do my job; or fire me."

[dirk digler]

BS. Vermeil isn't the defensive coordinator. We brought Gunther in to get the defense back into shape, and so far he's little better than Greg Robinson was.

By what basis do you say that Vermeil is to blame for the defense?

Not letting Gun have his type of coaches is the main one.

[Bowser]

Bullsh*t. I'm tired of that excuse. Gunther appears to be just as incompetent as any of the position coaches.

What has Gunther ever done without #58 on the field?

I'm with you as far as "What has Gun done without DT", but show me another coordinator in the league that has to work with assistants left over from the prior coordinator, who was a failure.

If there are any, I highly doubt that they have had much, if any, success either.

All that being said, I'm kinda suprised Gun has a defense playing like this.

[ChiefsCountry]

I think Gun's scheme yesteday was the right one. Trouble was that it the guys couldn't get McNabb down. They were in McNabb's jock all game, he just escaped and made the plays.

[Mr. Kotter]

Not letting Gun have his type of coaches is the main one.

That's only one, too. I see McCleon, Hicks, and the lack of a FA DT....as other evidence DV is micromanaging this Defense.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'd like to seee DV and Gun to face some Q & A on the issue....and actually answer the questions.

[htismaqe]

Anybody that wants to blame Vermeil for Gunther's failures is delusional at best.

No, Gunther didn't get to choose his assistant coaches. But he did get to CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT TO COME HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

The fact that he came back here to be a fall guy, despite being promised nothing, including not being able to choose his own staff, tells me all I need to know about Gunther.

As for his soft zone, it the same one we saw in 1999 and 2000, BEFORE Vermeil arrived.

[dirk digler]

That's only one, too. I see McCleon, Hicks, and the lack of a FA DT....as other evidence DV is micromanaging this Defense.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'd like to seee DV and Gun to face some Q & A on the issue....and actually answer the questions.

I agree.

[dirk digler]

Anybody that wants to blame Vermeil for Gunther's failures is delusional at best.

No, Gunther didn't get to choose his assistant coaches. But he did get to CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT TO COME HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

The fact that he came back here to be a fall guy, despite being promised nothing, including not being able to choose his own staff, tells me all I need to know about Gunther.

As for his soft zone, it the same one we saw in 1999 and 2000, BEFORE Vermeil arrived.

Yeah but we weren't ranked last in D in 1999 and 2000. The common thread is that DV has had a defense ranked 30 or below in what 4 out of 5 years? Coincedence(sp)?

[Coogs]

Gun had a "shopping list" for CP this off season. CP bought him his grocries. Even threw in a little bonus with DJ falling to #15.

The defense still sucks! :hmmm:

Time to clean house IMO, starting with the front offices. And the college scouting department should be let go this week. I'm not so sure I wouldn't rather have Voyager running our player personal department. That alone speaks volumes.

[RedThat]

BS. Vermeil isn't the defensive coordinator. We brought Gunther in to get the defense back into shape, and so far he's little better than Greg Robinson was.

By what basis do you say that Vermeil is to blame for the defense?

Dude, you have to remember Vermeil is the HEAD coach of this football team.
Just because we've heard reports in the past about Gunther being the sole guy running this defense, in charge of running the plays, and nobody else, is a lie. I can see it. All these reports are deceiving. Ill bet that sh*t is coming out of Vermeils arse. You have to remember, a HEAD coach can override any of the plays called. Thats what I think is happening. Just because Gunther calls a play it doesnt mean that play is going to happen, it has to be okayed and agreed upon by the head coach. Vermeil can overpower, override Gunther. WTF is Gun supposed in that aspect? He is very limited.

Look at yesterdays game? Arent you convinced? Weve been playing soft zone practically this whole season. This is Gun? No. I dont think so. whatever happen to the physical press man-to-man coverages? Whatever happened to blitzing the helluvas out of QB's? Whatever happened to the emotional fired up Gunther we are used to seeing? Were not seeing any of that are we?

Look at the play calling yesterday on defense. Our defense plays with no balls. Why? Ill bet because Vermeil is afraid to give up big plays. This defense operates out of fear more than anything. Saw it yesterday. They are not physical at all. Gunther takes risks, he is used to having his defenses play with balls to the wall. Why all this soft zone? Why did they give Owens shit load of room underneath. Do they not realize he's one of the best open field players in the game? did you see the 2nd TD philly scored? Nobody was on Owens! they gave him all the room in the world, yet you have a great CB in Surtain, so put him on him, let him play physical on him. Instead, why is Surtain backing off and playing zone. WTF in the world allows Owens that much space, when you even have a great CB? Im embarrassed to even see that.

Bottomline is, this is Vermeil. No balls, all fear. You dont think Vermeil has an influence in the overall game plans? I do. I dont believe any of this sh*t that Gunther calls all the plays and is solely responsible for this defense. Thats sounds like a scapegoat for Vermeil. I cant wait till he leaves. Its all for the better for our team imo.

[htismaqe]

Yeah but we weren't ranked last in D in 1999 and 2000. The common thread is that DV has had a defense ranked 30 or below in what 4 out of 5 years? Coincedence(sp)?

What does yardage or rank have to do anything?

The scheme is the same. What's different is the players.

Absolving Gunther by shifting the blame to Vermeil is simply wrong.

They're ALL to blame.

[go bo]

That's only one, too. I see McCleon, Hicks, and the lack of a FA DT....as other evidence DV is micromanaging this Defense.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'd like to seee DV and Gun to face some Q & A on the issue....and actually answer the questions.ok now, take a deep breath and try to get hold of yourself...

now, just who would you have put in to replace mccleon and hicks?

and how many free agents do you think our available cap space and bonus money would have bought (regarding the fa dt)?

the way i hear it, we spent all our money on surtain, bell and knight...

if there was really some money left over, don't you think they would have at least looked at some fa dt's?

actually, i don't think so...

going into the season, we expected sims to be playing and we already had dalton, siavii and browning...

compared to wr (which is not exactly a position of great depth, i admit), we were very deep at dt...

now sims is gone and siavii has bad knees...

dalton and browing cannot play the entire game without getting too tired to be effective...

that's why we have a d-line rotation, isn't it?

[htismaqe]

Dude, you have to remember Vermeil is the HEAD coach of this football team.
Just because we've heard reports in the past about Gunther being the sole guy running this defense, in charge of running the plays, and nobody else, is a lie. I can see it. All these reports are deceiving. Ill bet that sh*t is coming out of Vermeils arse. You have to remember, a HEAD coach can override any of the plays called. Thats what I think is happening. Just because Gunther calls a play it doesnt mean that play is going to happen, it has to be okayed and agreed upon by the head coach. Vermeil can overpower, override Gunther. WTF is Gun supposed in that aspect? He is very limited.

Look at yesterdays game? Arent you convinced? Weve been playing soft zone practically this whole season. This is Gun? No. I dont think so. whatever happen to the physical press man-to-man coverages? Whatever happened to blitzing the helluvas out of QB's? Whatever happened to the emotional fired up Gunther we are used to seeing? Were not seeing any of that are we?

Look at the play calling yesterday on defense. Our defense plays with no balls. Why? Ill bet because Vermeil is afraid to give up big plays. This defense operates out of fear more than anything. Saw it yesterday. They are not physical at all. Gunther takes risks, he is used to having his defenses play with balls to the wall. Why all this soft zone? Why did they give Owens shit load of room underneath. Do they not realize he's one of the best open field players in the game? did you see the 2nd TD philly scored? Nobody was on Owens! they gave him all the room in the world, yet you have a great CB in Surtain, so put him on him, let him play physical on him. Instead, why is Surtain backing off and playing zone. WTF in the world allows Owens that much space, when you even have a great CB? Im embarrassed to even see that.

Bottomline is, this is Vermeil. No balls, all fear. You dont think Vermeil has an influence in the overall game plans? I do. I dont believe any of this sh*t that Gunther calls all the plays and is solely responsible for this defense. Thats sounds like a scapegoat for Vermeil. I cant wait till he leaves. Its all for the better for our team imo.

Just like 1999 and 2000, when Vermeil was micromanaging the defense. :rolleyes:

Step back, look at the big picture, and realize that Gunther is part of the PROBLEM.

[DMAC]

sucks to say it but our d was good when it was marty and gun.

[dirk digler]

What does yardage or rank have to do anything?

The scheme is the same. What's different is the players.

Absolving Gunther by shifting the blame to Vermeil is simply wrong.

They're ALL to blame.

I am not absolving Gun by any means and I agree that they're all to blame.

We have replaced the DC then the players but the one constant is DV. He even said himself last year that maybe he is the problem since he is the only common demoniator(sp).

[htismaqe]

sucks to say it but our d was good when it was marty and gun.

Probably because Marty micro-managed it...

[Eleazar]

Look at the play calling yesterday on defense. Our defense plays with no balls. Why? Ill bet because Vermeil is afraid to give up big plays. This defense operates out of fear more than anything. Saw it yesterday. They are not physical at all. Gunther takes risks, he is used to having his defenses play with balls to the wall. Why all this soft zone?

ROFL ROFL ROFL

Who is calling the plays?

[Chiefnj]

The two biggest problems:

1. No pass rush from the front 4.
2. The back 7 getting accustomed to Gunther's pass D scheme. Of the 7 starters you have 4 guys new to the team (DJ, Bell, Surtain, Knight) and one guy playing a new position (Wesley).

It is going to take time for all of the new guys to comprehend the scheme and figure out where they should be. They seem to have a fair grasp of the run defense, but the pass D is coming along a little slower. There has been lots of confusion with the zone defense, lots of defenders running into each other and/or being out of position. Time and the addition of Warfield should help the pass D.

The pass rush is another matter. First off, I don't buy into the whole theory that the loss of Sims has doomed the DL. It didn't help, but Sims isn't that good. One series against the Jets does not a career make.

The Chiefs desperately need better blitz packages to generate a pass rush and bring in a DE or DT to rotate and try to light a fire under the current starters.

[ROYC75]

Could the soft zone be because of Warfield out and Dexter in ? If so, how long before Warfield gets his act together ?

[Archie Bunker]

Gun's problem is he doesn't have a line.

Hicks-Average at best
Dalton-Disappeared
Browning- :rolleyes:
Allen-Situational pass rusher on most teams
Savaii-Plays like a fat Jr High kid
Hall-See Allen
Wilkerson-heh

With no line and McCleon at CB he has no choice IMO but to run the zone he has been running. Over the bye week the Chiefs need to use some of the 3.5 mill in cap space and get a DT but they wont I am sure.

[RedThat]

ROFL ROFL ROFL

Who is calling the plays?

Gunther. But, I think Vermeil is altering, overriding them.

[dirk digler]

When I was up in training camp I said that our D-Line was going to be the downfall of the D. Funny the majority laughed at me for that observation.

[Hammock Parties]

Hell I am amazed McCleon hasn't been burned deep yet this season. The Eagles took a shot and he picked it off.

[RedThat]

Hell I am amazed McCleon hasn't been burned deep yet this season. The Eagles took a shot and he picked it off.

That was an overthrow by McNabb. McCleon was playing behind Owens. He was in the right place at the right time. Allen got good pressure on McNabb on that play.

[Eleazar]

Gunther. But, I think Vermeil is altering, overriding them.

How do you know that?

[RedThat]

How do you know that?

I dont. Thats why I said "I think".

[Eleazar]

I dont. Thats why I said "I think".

Do you know something we don't know? Or are you just assuming that Gunther could never in a million years preside over a bad defense so Vermeil must be neutering him? :hmmm:

[DMAC]

Lets not forget that the offense is crumbling too. It can't be all Roaf. Trent threw like 1 pass over 10 yards. Everything was dump, screen, quick slant, dump, screen, quick slant. It was like watching a combo of the 98 rams and the 02 raiders

[RedThat]

Do you know something we don't know? Or are you just assuming that Gunther could never in a million years preside over a bad defense so Vermeil must be neutering him? :hmmm:

No. this is just my opinion. That is all.

[MahiMike]

I said this last week too. We've wasted 2 years now with him in charge. It's a shame because at the time he came back, our offense was unstoppable. All or our offseason acquisitions were on that side when it's obvious we're not very deep on the Offense either.

Sooner or later you had to know these old guys wouldn't hold up forever.

[htismaqe]

If they were constantly rolling the zone coverage over to McCleon's side, I'd be inclined to say the only reason they're running zone is to protect Dexter.

However, that's NOT THE CASE.

[Hammock Parties]

I guess the best we can hope for is that Gunther is waiting for Warfield to get back.

[Bowser]

If they were constantly rolling the zone coverage over to McCleon's side, I'd be inclined to say the only reason they're running zone is to protect Dexter.

However, that's NOT THE CASE.

Then why are we running this zone crap? A weak D-Line?

[dirk digler]

If they were constantly rolling the zone coverage over to McCleon's side, I'd be inclined to say the only reason they're running zone is to protect Dexter.

However, that's NOT THE CASE.

Yep. I will wait until Warfield comes back but supposedly the reason why they signed Surtain was because he was a "shutdown" corner. Surtain doesn't and shouldn't play zone, he is a man-to-man CB.

If I was the DC I would have Surtain cover their best receiver all over the field like he did in Miami.

[DJJasonp]

The two biggest problems:

1. No pass rush from the front 4.
2. The back 7 getting accustomed to Gunther's pass D scheme. Of the 7 starters you have 4 guys new to the team (DJ, Bell, Surtain, Knight) and one guy playing a new position (Wesley).

It is going to take time for all of the new guys to comprehend the scheme and figure out where they should be. They seem to have a fair grasp of the run defense, but the pass D is coming along a little slower. There has been lots of confusion with the zone defense, lots of defenders running into each other and/or being out of position. Time and the addition of Warfield should help the pass D.

The pass rush is another matter. First off, I don't buy into the whole theory that the loss of Sims has doomed the DL. It didn't help, but Sims isn't that good. One series against the Jets does not a career make.

The Chiefs desperately need better blitz packages to generate a pass rush and bring in a DE or DT to rotate and try to light a fire under the current starters.

Well said.

The scheme fits the talent, not the other way around. Unfortunately, as long as we have no semblance of a pass rush (the times we did touch McNabb is was after 8 seconds of sitting in the pocket). No pass rush will turn all of our nice off-season pickups into nobodys. The bottome line is a bit cliched but true....it all starts up front. Maybe with the addition of Warfield, Gun might be able to call more bump and run coverages and blitzes, but without a push up the middle, we're in trouble. It's just like last year....even when we do blitz (like the all out blitz yesterday that McNab just missed TO on)...we still dont even get to the quarterback.

Not sure if this has been mentioned either, but another huge problem is offense isnt putting together enough sustained drives to keep our D off the field and rested.

[htismaqe]

Then why are we running this zone crap? A weak D-Line?

I don't know WHY they're running it.

I just know what I see. They're not rolling coverage to Dex's side. They're also not playing alot of Cover 1 or Cover 2 with the safeties deep in the middle to help out over the top.

Unless of course, the safeties are just so incredibly out of position that it just LOOKS like they're not playing deep cover zones.

[Calcountry]

Bullsh*t. I'm tired of that excuse. Gunther appears to be just as incompetent as any of the position coaches.

What has Gunther ever done without #58 on the field?If DV is "neutering" Gun, then Gun should fuggin quit.

If he doesn't have the balls to stand up to the slobbering crying DV, then he doesn't have the balls to coach this aggressive attacking D that everyone talks about.

Sorry, but Gun gets way too much credit for what Derrick Thomas did.

[RedThat]

Yep. I will wait until Warfield comes back but supposedly the reason why they signed Surtain was because he was a "shutdown" corner. Surtain doesn't and shouldn't play zone, he is a man-to-man CB.

If I was the DC I would have Surtain cover their best receiver all over the field like he did in Miami.

Exactly. If the Chiefs are playing zone, why get Surtain to begin with? He is at his best in man-to-man. this off-season move seems like a contradiction. We are not utilizing his talents properly, as a matter of fact, we are wasting a really good player.

[chiefz]

I actually saw Gunther smile on camera yesterday early on in the game...

[Eleazar]

I don't know WHY they're running it.

I just know what I see. They're not rolling coverage to Dex's side. They're also not playing alot of Cover 1 or Cover 2 with the safeties deep in the middle to help out over the top.

Unless of course, the safeties are just so incredibly out of position that it just LOOKS like they're not playing deep cover zones.

You would think that, with the defensive line as pathetic as it is, they'd be blitzing like crazy to create some pressure. But it seems like we're barely blitzing at all. A reciever will run a 10 yard route over the middle and catch the ball, and there won't be a Chief even on the screen. I can't tell the difference between the playcalling on this defense and back in '03 or so.

[Calcountry]

When I was up in training camp I said that our D-Line was going to be the downfall of the D. Funny the majority laughed at me for that observation.Compare the Eagles pass rush to ours. Case closed, you win.

That was the difference in the game. The Eagles adjusted their D and our O had no answer. Our Oline sucks so bad without Roaf and Welborne, that Trent couldn't afford to drop back and pass. Instead, he had to do way too many quick dumps. One of them a guy was waiting for.

[keg in kc]

You wouldn't run a zone to protect a weak d-line. Zones only work if your d-line can provide pressure without help. You might mix in a few blitzes, some straight, some zone, but basically you're asking your front 3(we run some 3-3-5)/front 4 to provide a pass rush, and do it quickly enough that receivers don't have time to find and exploit the seams and gaps in your coverage.

And our problems appear to be with every level of our zone. We talk about the d-line not generating pressure, and about the secondary struggling, but I think the LBs are clearly a part of the issue as well. Bell has never been a coverage linebacker, this is on-the-job training for him, and DJ is a rookie. Mitchell's doing the best out of the three so far, from what I can tell. That no doubt has a serious impact on the success of our zones, and may well be contributing to the problems we're seeing in our secondary.

Sometimes the problem you see isn't caused by the person(s) it appears to be.

[Calcountry]

It looks a lot easier when you have Derrick Thomas and James Hasty.Exactly. Gun gets way too much credit.

[dirk digler]

Compare the Eagles pass rush to ours. Case closed, you win.

That was the difference in the game. The Eagles adjusted their D and our O had no answer. Our Oline sucks so bad without Roaf and Welborne, that Trent couldn't afford to drop back and pass. Instead, he had to do way too many quick dumps. One of them a guy was waiting for.

I wasn't comparing the Eagles to our D-line. I stood and watched the D and especially the D-Line and LB'ers for 3 days in River Falls. I said then that our D-Line is horrible. Some people thought I was stupid for saying that.

I agree on the second part. It seems other teams make adjustments but we never do.

[dirk digler]

I can't tell the difference between the playcalling on this defense and back in '03 or so.

Maybe DV then tries to limit what Gun can run and do.

[keg in kc]

Some people thought I was stupid for saying that.Really?

I got the impression this offseason that the d-line was the only thing that anybody was still worried about, that we were hoping that Sims would begin to play like his draft pick and that someone would take Hicks' job.

I know I wasn't the only one...

[htismaqe]

You wouldn't run a zone to protect a weak d-line. Zones only work if your d-line can provide pressure without help. You might mix in a few blitzes, some straight, some zone, but basically you're asking your front 3(we run some 3-3-5)/front 4 to provide a pass rush, and do it quickly enough that receivers don't have time to find and exploit the seams and gaps in your coverage.

And our problems appear to be with every level of our zone. We talk about the d-line not generating pressure, and about the secondary struggling, but I think the LBs are clearly a part of the issue as well. Bell has never been a coverage linebacker, this is on-the-job training for him, and DJ is a rookie. Mitchell's doing the best out of the three so far, from what I can tell. That no doubt has a serious impact on the success of our zones, and may well be contributing to the problems we're seeing in our secondary.

Sometimes the problem you see isn't caused by the person(s) it appears to be.

Exactly. The kind of zone we are running is actually PREDICATED on a strong front 4, rather than being used to cover up a weak front 4.

[htismaqe]

Maybe DV then tries to limit what Gun can run and do.

Or maybe Marty was calling the plays the last time Gunther was here...

[dirk digler]

Really?

I got the impression this offseason that the d-line was the only think that anybody was worried about this offseason, were hoping that Sims would begin to play like his draft pick and that someone would take Hicks' job.

I know I wasn't the only one...

You may be right but some people thought I full of shit, which I may be but I think I was right in this case anyways.

[keg in kc]

You may be right but some people thought I full of shitWell, that much goes without saying.

[dirk digler]

Or maybe Marty was calling the plays the last time Gunther was here...

Maybe...

I notice Marty doesn't wear a headset anymore with the Chargers.

[dirk digler]

Well, that much goes without saying.

True.

[Iowanian]

Ironically..........KCJohnny didn't pop in today to carry on about the spectacular defensive adjustments Gun made yesterday.


At the end of this season....Superbowl or bust....I think I'd like to see every single coach gone, save maybe Oline.

[Hammock Parties]

Ironically..........KCJohnny didn't pop in today to carry on about the spectacular defensive adjustments Gun made yesterday.


At the end of this season....Superbowl or bust....I think I'd like to see every single coach gone, save maybe Oline.

What about Gansz, Jr?

[dirk digler]

Ironically..........KCJohnny didn't pop in today to carry on about the spectacular defensive adjustments Gun made yesterday.


At the end of this season....Superbowl or bust....I think I'd like to see every single coach gone, save maybe Oline.

You know I was thinking the same thing about our coaches today. I like Mike Solari but what he has done with our O-Line during the last 2 games I could care less if he goes as well. The only coach that is worth a damn IMO is Gansz Jr.

[DMAC]

Maybe...

I notice Marty doesn't wear a headset anymore with the Chargers.
i think its just that vermiel has puppy dogged gun. he has woosified him. crying may work for vermiel, but he doesnt need to be rubbing that off on anybody. especially a man who is supposed to be frikkin pissed off all of the time.

[mrbiggz]

I don't know if you guys know this but we have no talent on the dline. Honestly, how many teams do you think that Hicks, Dalton, and Wilkerson could start for in this league? I'm afraid that I can't think of a more inept dline. And to compound that by having three on the field at the same time. This is what happens when you don't address the honest questions.

[Iowanian]

What part cleaning house did you misunderstand gc?

If the new and impartial Staff(and GM in my perfect world) wished to re-hire Ganz jr....fine. Not a single one should be retained by contract imo.

[keg in kc]

This is what happens when you don't address the honest questions.The problem isn't that they haven't addressed the "honest questions", it's the way they've addressed those questions. They've signed several free agents and spent a number of draft picks on the d-line since 2001 and the only one that's paid any kind of dividends to date is Jared Allen. You can't miss on that many personnel moves and succeed.

[htismaqe]

i think its just that vermiel has puppy dogged gun. he has woosified him. crying may work for vermiel, but he doesnt need to be rubbing that off on anybody. especially a man who is supposed to be frikkin pissed off all of the time.

So what was Gun's excuse in 1999 and 2000, when the Chiefs ran this same soft zone?

[mrbiggz]

The problem isn't that they haven't addressed the "honest questions", it's the way they've addressed those questions. They've signed several free agents and spent a number of draft picks on the d-line since 2001 and the only one that's paid any kind of dividends to date is Jared Allen. You can't miss on that many personnel moves and succeed.


You are right. At some point the Hunt family needs to hold CP accountable and make the neccasary changes. What do they do? Rehire him and give him a raise.

[Mr. Kotter]

So what was Gun's excuse in 1999 and 2000, when the Chiefs ran this same soft zone?

Eh, that's easy.

It was Kurt Schottenheimer's fault then. :p

[dirk digler]

Eh, that's easy.

It was Kurt Schottenheimer's fault then. :p

Damn I forgot about ole Kurt.

[DMAC]

So what was Gun's excuse in 1999 and 2000, when the Chiefs ran this same soft zone?
you mean after marty left and clueless gunther took the reigns, then started taking paxil because it was just too much for him, then got fired, then got rehired, then got woosified by a loving vermiel?

all im saying is that its been a downward spiral for him since marty left and now he has been woosified!

we need to start praying to the football gods now that hank is up there

[Mr. Kotter]

you mean after marty left and clueless gunther took the reigns, then started taking paxil because it was just too much for him, then got fired, then got rehired, then got woosified by a loving vermiel?

all im saying is that its been a downward spiral for him since marty left and now he has been woosified!



You know what?

THAT may just be the best answer.

Is so, God and Hank help us the rest of the season.... :(

[htismaqe]

you mean after marty left and clueless gunther took the reigns, then started taking paxil because it was just too much for him, then got fired, then got rehired, then got woosified by a loving vermiel?

all im saying is that its been a downward spiral for him since marty left and now he has been woosified!

we need to start praying to the football gods now that hank is up there

Stop blaming it on Vermeil.

Gunther always has been, and always will be, a foot-shuffling porter...

[dirk digler]

Stop blaming it on Vermeil.



I don't know how you DON'T blame Vermeil. The last time I checked he is the head coach of the team. He assumes all responsibility for the Offense as well as the Defense and ST's.

We have had 4 years of a 30th ranked D or less under Vermeil. When is he going to start to be held accountable?

[HemiEd]

It looks a lot easier when you have Derrick Thomas and James Hasty.

exactly

[Extra Point]

Had to grab a handful of Kleenex after having read all this negativity about Vermeil and Cunningham. Put Gun back in the view box, let him see the pieces, and let Vermiel have his influence on the offense. Mc-Cling-on isn't giving Vermeil what he gave in St. Louis. We have the weakest secondary in the NFL. Let Gun have the say on who will be our DB's. If who we have in those positions are Gun's choice players, then he needs to go.

The only thing I remember about yesterday's game is when Vermeil hugged Dante Hall after the runback. After that, we tanked.

This season will prove that CP must go, and that the Hunts needs to make several sweeping changes, including CEO.

[Chiefnj]

This season will prove that CP must go, and that the Hunts needs to make several sweeping changes, including CEO.

How is this season CP's fault? He brought in all of the free agents that the coaches and fans wanted. He drafted DJ which people loved and Colquitt which people liked.

[htismaqe]

I don't know how you DON'T blame Vermeil. The last time I checked he is the head coach of the team. He assumes all responsibility for the Offense as well as the Defense and ST's.

We have had 4 years of a 30th ranked D or less under Vermeil. When is he going to start to be held accountable?

I blame Vermeil for what Vermeil is responsible for. People are blaming Vermeil for GUNTHER'S failures.

I've never understood why so many Chief fans hold Gunther as some sort of demi-deity that is free from blame.

He's a mediocre defensive coordinator, even when his defense was loaded.

[Johnson&Johnson]

All is true about Gunther being neutered if we see McCleon in there when Warfield returns in the next game. DV is all to be blame, god dammit he is the HEAD COACH and what the hell he's got a #1 offense the last 2 years in the NFL going 3 and out with such consistency??? And leaving our rebuilding D (improving D) expose to one of the best high-powered offense like the Eagles. When KC's D stop Eagles to a FG, what do the KC offense do? PUNT. When McCleon picks off a great pass covering...ummmm. Terrell Owens??? and then the KC offense do what? PUNT!!!

Go Figure!

[dirk digler]

I blame Vermeil for what Vermeil is responsible for. People are blaming Vermeil for GUNTHER'S failures.

I've never understood why so many Chief fans hold Gunther as some sort of demi-deity that is free from blame.

He's a mediocre defensive coordinator, even when his defense was loaded.

I agree but that doesn't absolve DV for not taking the blame on the failure of our D. Gun is just as much as to blame as DV.

I want a house cleaning after this season unless we win the SB.

[Johnson&Johnson]

I agree but that doesn't absolve DV for not taking the blame on the failure of our D. Gun is just as much as to blame as DV.

I want a house cleaning after this season unless we win the SB.

[HemiEd]

I blame Vermeil for what Vermeil is responsible for. People are blaming Vermeil for GUNTHER'S failures.

I've never understood why so many Chief fans hold Gunther as some sort of demi-deity that is free from blame.

He's a mediocre defensive coordinator, even when his defense was loaded.

I could not agree more. Gun is no Defensive genious (cps).

[Johnson&Johnson]

I agree but that doesn't absolve DV for not taking the blame on the failure of our D. Gun is just as much as to blame as DV.

I want a house cleaning after this season unless we win the SB.


I cannot agree more with you. I say we need a house cleaning with the entire coaching staff. Forget about winning or getting to the SB. If they get to the playoff and can't get a playoff win? I say fumugate the entire organization and loose all the pretenders.

[htismaqe]

All is true about Gunther being neutered if we see McCleon in there when Warfield returns in the next game. DV is all to be blame, god dammit he is the HEAD COACH and what the hell he's got a #1 offense the last 2 years in the NFL going 3 and out with such consistency??? And leaving our rebuilding D (improving D) expose to one of the best high-powered offense like the Eagles. When KC's D stop Eagles to a FG, what do the KC offense do? PUNT. When McCleon picks off a great pass covering...ummmm. Terrell Owens??? and then the KC offense do what? PUNT!!!

Go Figure!

How do you know that Gunther isn't the one that has McCleon in the starting lineup?

[DMAC]

How do you know that Gunther isn't the one that has McCleon in the starting lineup?
probably because we know that vermiel and dexter are buddies. dex is workin him, taking him out to dinner and such. plus he does JUST enough to make an arguement to vermiel on why to keep him starting. you know today he's like " But Coach, didn't you see me intercept that pass against Terrell?"

[Johnson&Johnson]

How do you know that Gunther isn't the one that has McCleon in the starting lineup?

If you look back enough into DV's time with the Rams, Dexter was always their nickelback where he can excel. Warfield is more physical and better to play man. If Gunther wants to attack, it will make sense that he uses Warfield.

I know DV loves "his guys", the ones he brougth along with him. DV should be content that he's already brought 2 amazing talents to our team (ie. Priest & Kennison) He should stop there. Until today I think DV is still trying to justify trading our #1 pick for Trent in 2001. That is why he is so evidently over-protecting his QB and not letting any blame whatsoever on Green. If you have seen his press conference, he's always trying to protect Green even when the press don't ask about the play of his QB. He goes and praise Trent's job. Holy shit..thats what the QB's job resolves around - manage the game and be a leader of a team.
DV- stop making it sound as if Trent is such a amazing QB. If he was, it shouldn't take him a good 10 years to break into the league after being drafted in the 8th or 10th round?

[acasas4]

People, I know the defense was terrible yesterday but what about the management of the offense. Priest was on fire in the first quarter and he hardly touches the ball after that??? I also understand they are trying to help the left tackle by using the tight ends to block, but not getting the ball into the hands of the best T.E. in the league is inexcusable. The coaches need to re-think their game planning...

[htismaqe]

probably because we know that vermiel and dexter are buddies. dex is workin him, taking him out to dinner and such. plus he does JUST enough to make an arguement to vermiel on why to keep him starting. you know today he's like " But Coach, didn't you see me intercept that pass against Terrell?"

Thanks for proving my point.

[htismaqe]

If you look back enough into DV's time with the Rams, Dexter was always their nickelback where he can excel. Warfield is more physical and better to play man. If Gunther wants to attack, it will make sense that he uses Warfield.

So basically, your answer to my question is that it doesn't make sense?

When has Gunther EVER made sense, since he first arrived here 10 years ago?

[Mr. Kotter]

I don't know how you DON'T blame Vermeil. The last time I checked he is the head coach of the team. He assumes all responsibility for the Offense as well as the Defense and ST's.

We have had 4 years of a 30th ranked D or less under Vermeil. When is he going to start to be held accountable?

Bingo. I'm with you, David.

I just think the Buck stops with Vermiel.

[Mr. Kotter]

How do you know that Gunther isn't the one that has McCleon in the starting lineup?

I'd bet on it. Too bad we'll never know for sure.

[htismaqe]

Bingo. I'm with you, David.

I just think the Buck stops with Vermiel.

Absolutely the buck stops with Vermeil.

However, there seems to be a large contingent here that want to paint Gunther as an unwilling participant in Vermeil's colossal failure.

Gunther CHOSE to be here and should shoulder every bit of the blame he deserves.

[Mr. Kotter]

...now, just who would you have put in to replace mccleon and hicks?

and how many free agents do you think our available cap space and bonus money would have bought (regarding the fa dt)?

....

going into the season, we expected sims to be playing and we already had dalton, siavii and browning...

compared to wr (which is not exactly a position of great depth, i admit), we were very deep at dt...?

McCleon? Seriously....I'd have given the job to Sapp, or even Bartee. At least they seem to be capable of the press coverage; McCleon isn't. And, no, I don't think they'd have done any worse. Do you? Seriously?

As for Hicks, I think is it were left to Gun entirely....Hicks would be behind Allen, Wilkerson, and Hall. Hicks is a has-been who's lived off one "good" year, or worse.....who never was...IMO.

DT? With the contract Simon signed with Indy, we could have signed him--but chose not to. And, say what you will, about depth....I'm convinced we could (CAN!) sign someone who will be no worse than those currently playing for us.

Is Sims gonna make it back, or not? Have you heard?

[Mr. Kotter]

Absolutely the buck stops with Vermeil.

However, there seems to be a large contingent here that want to paint Gunther as an unwilling participant in Vermeil's colossal failure.

Gunther CHOSE to be here and should shoulder every bit of the blame he deserves.

I agree Gun has some "choice," but to paint him as a shuffling porter is a bit unfair in my view....he's trying to play the "loyal soldier" part, but I gotta think it's gonna end, one way or another--and relatively soon.

[Extra Point]

How is this season CP's fault? He brought in all of the free agents that the coaches and fans wanted. He drafted DJ which people loved and Colquitt which people liked.

Great! I love Colquitt! One of the first priorities of a head coach is to get a good punter!

What about getting people on offense who PREVENT us from having to punt, or getting people on defense who force opponents TO punt?

What about the defensive backfield? What about the O-line?

Let Greg Wesley (Weaks-ley) and Dexter McLeon (My-Cling-On) go!

Get some relief for when the Will Shields and Willie Roaf have to leave at the end of this year! Why didn't we think about this stuff at near the end of last year?

Let Gun back in the view box, get Al Saunders using Tony G more, and let Green roll right, with some good blocking from his capable backfield, so he can find some yardage down the field.

Here's something novel-- Why not trade our first round pick for guys further down the chart? No outlandish money to pay for over-valued talent. Three areas for the next draft: DB, O-Line, O-Line. I'd love to see them pick the QB from LSU, for that matter. Trade for more help on defense.

[htismaqe]

I agree Gun has some "choice," but to paint him as a shuffling porter is a bit unfair in my view....he's trying to play the "loyal soldier" part, but I gotta think it's gonna end, one way or another--and relatively soon.

Unfair?

The guy was a known commodity at DC who had just finished molding Tennessee's LB corps into one of the best in the league.

He had CHOICES and in the end he chose to come back here like a dog with its tail between its legs.

I said this when he got here and it's still true now.

[htismaqe]

Great! I love Colquitt! One of the first priorities of a head coach is to get a good punter!

What about getting people on offense who PREVENT us from having to punt, or getting people on defense who force opponents TO punt?

What about the defensive backfield? What about the O-line?

Let Greg Wesley (Weaks-ley) and Dexter McLeon (My-Cling-On) go!

Get some relief for when the Will Shields and Willie Roaf have to leave at the end of this year! Why didn't we think about this stuff at near the end of last year?

Let Gun back in the view box, get Al Saunders using Tony G more, and let Green roll right, with some good blocking from his capable backfield, so he can find some yardage down the field.

Here's something novel-- Why not trade our first round pick for guys further down the chart? No outlandish money to pay for over-valued talent. Three areas for the next draft: DB, O-Line, O-Line. I'd love to see them pick the QB from LSU, for that matter. Trade for more help on defense.

Brilliant! We should have just changed out the whole roster over the offseason. It's so easy, we just couldn't see it before. Thanks!

[the Talking Can]

sorry, but Gunther is an idiot....he's done nothing to makes us forget of GR...and he's get out coached a lot...

I wasn't thrilled when we brought him back, but you think "he has to be better than GR!?!"....no evidence of that yet

[dirk digler]

sorry, but Gunther is an idiot....he's done nothing to makes us forget of GR...and he's get out coached a lot...

I wasn't thrilled when we brought him back, but you think "he has to be better than GR!?!"....no evidence of that yet

I am starting to come around to that line of thinking. I thought anyone could be better than GROB but I am now starting to feel that this is DV's fault more than anyone's elses.

[Chiefnj]

Great! I love Colquitt! One of the first priorities of a head coach is to get a good punter!

What about getting people on offense who PREVENT us from having to punt, or getting people on defense who force opponents TO punt?

What about the defensive backfield? What about the O-line?

Let Greg Wesley (Weaks-ley) and Dexter McLeon (My-Cling-On) go!

Get some relief for when the Will Shields and Willie Roaf have to leave at the end of this year! Why didn't we think about this stuff at near the end of last year?

Let Gun back in the view box, get Al Saunders using Tony G more, and let Green roll right, with some good blocking from his capable backfield, so he can find some yardage down the field.

Here's something novel-- Why not trade our first round pick for guys further down the chart? No outlandish money to pay for over-valued talent. Three areas for the next draft: DB, O-Line, O-Line. I'd love to see them pick the QB from LSU, for that matter. Trade for more help on defense.

I'll address each of your points.

1. Punter was a need. For the last 4 years KC has gone through bad punters like poop through a goose. They used a supplemental third round pick on a guy that was an area of need.

2. Getting people on offense. 99% of the Chief fans wanted the focus on the defense. The offense has been top 5 for the last three years - it wasn't a great area of need. High priced free agent WRs and OL and high offensive draft picks weren't on the top of the needs list.

3. What about the defensive backfield? Carl brought in a top corner in Surtain and the safety who had the most takeaways the last few years - Knight. Plus, he signed Ambrose and Washington and drafted Hodge. He made HUGE moves in the secondary.

4. What about the OL? In the last few years he's drafted OL - Samson, Black, Parquett, Svitek, Williams and brought in free agents - Bober and Welbourne. He's made moves and I can only assume he got some input from Solari.

5. Wesley and McLeon. See #3 - the attempt was made to improve the unit. And as for McLeon, he isn't playing nearly as bad as people like to complain.

6. Get some relief for Shields and Roaf. You don't replace two Hall of Famers that easily. I think Bober, Welbourne and the 4 or 5 draft picks on the OL the last 3 years attempted to address the future retirement of these guys.

7. Let Gun back in the box. It was Gunther's decision to go on the field. How is this CP's fault?

8. Get Al using Tony G more. I agree, it's assinine for Al not to use him, but I place the blame on Al. If it continues it will be Vermeil's fault, not CP's.

9. "Why not trade our first round pick for guys further down the chart? No outlandish money to pay for over-valued talent." That's funny. That plan worked really well with Siavii, huh? Yeah, lets pass on the best 4-3 linebacker in the NCAA for some later round talent.

[Rausch]

I think most fans recognized that our pass rush/blitzing was going to have to cover for our secondary the first few weeks.

Week one and part of the Radier game we brought it.

The last two weeks we let teams walk up and down the field on us. How often did we blitz McNabb?

Once we got the 17 pt lead why didn't we bring it?...

[tk13]

The buck stops with Vermeil, but Gun runs the defense. I think that's been pretty clear. DV has always been hands off with the defense. Really he's hands off with the offense too, even though he's an offensive/special teams coach, he gives Al most of the control over the offense too. He's always been that way, letting his coaches coach like that.

DV is the head coach, he certainly shouldn't be absolved from blame, but Gun shouldn't get off scot-free, I think this assistants excuse is nonsense. Our assistants are not that incompentent. This is Gun's defense, DV allowed Gun to make a list and bring in the guys he wanted to turn this defense into the defense Gun wanted, which apparently so far is zone city USA, with little help from the front four and quick blitzing LB's getting stuck in zone.

[Straight, No Chaser]

...Anyone else think Dick has fuggin' neutered Gun???...




No.

C'mon now. Before the game started the coaches knew the Eagles were going to throw the football. Certainly, when it was 24-6 there was no doubt what was coming. Gunther & Co. are lucky DV isn't calling them out in public.


--->

[Mr. Kotter]

The buck stops with Vermeil, but Gun runs the defense. I think that's been pretty clear. DV has always been hands off with the defense. Really he's hands off with the offense too, even though he's an offensive/special teams coach, he gives Al most of the control over the offense too. He's always been that way, letting his coaches coach like that.

DV is the head coach, he certainly shouldn't be absolved from blame, but Gun shouldn't get off scot-free, I think this assistants excuse is nonsense. Our assistants are not that incompentent. This is Gun's defense, DV allowed Gun to make a list and bring in the guys he wanted to turn this defense into the defense Gun wanted, which apparently so far is zone city USA, with little help from the front four and quick blitzing LB's getting stuck in zone.

I think DV is a "big picture" with "stipulations" type manager.....yes, he leaves the OC and DC to operate the day-to-day stuff. But I'm becoming convinced DV is orchestrating particular personnel decisions, and some specific parameters for defensive play....

Maybe Gun has just become soft; maybe he was never the aggressive and in-your-face, never-back-down type I remember him as. Whatever the case, he isn't what his legend and reputation claims him to be.....at least not anymore it seems.

[Mr. Kotter]

No.

C'mon now. Before the game started the coaches knew the Eagles were going to throw the football. Certainly, when it was 24-6 there was no doubt what was coming. Gunther & Co. are lucky DV isn't calling them out in public.


--->

What? I don't follow..... :hmmm:

If anything, I see Gun WANTING to go for the throat......blitz and bump 'n run, ESPECIALLY when they were up by 17 and 18 points. But they didn't.

And I suspect that is where DV's veto authority came in. I suspect DV told him either "no" or "let's save it".....but, of course, by the time he could change his mind, we were back in a dogfight, and the opportunity was gone.... :banghead:

[DJJasonp]

At what point does it stop being about the players and more about the coaching? Granted, the defense has yet to play with Warfield and has yet to have a chance to gel, but at some point, the finger blaming has to be put upon the coaching staff. We got speed and talent at the linebacker position....we went out and got Surtain and Knight...our front 4 (or 3) is supposedly solid (workmanlike may be more appropriate)....and we're still coming up with the same results.

Why is TO allowed to run free throughout our secondary...even worse, why are linebackers covering him....why is Surtain not on him every play...why are we not playing a cover 2 (or at least double teaming him every down)?

On the offensive side of the ball, why do you pull a hot running back from the game (I dont care who your backup is)? I understand leaving a TE in to protect your QB, but Tony G? Why not Dunn or Wilson? Go jumbo package if need be. We DID have a lead, right? The pass picked for a TD was idiotic....never have liked the idea of pulling Priest out of the backfield (or even LJ).

We have seriously been outcoached in over half of the quarters we've played this year.

I cant believe I'm saying this, but even Marty made good halftime adjustments yesterday and shut down NE in the 2nd half.

[Straight, No Chaser]

What? I don't follow..... :hmmm:

If anything, I see Gun WANTING to go for the throat......blitz and bump 'n run, ESPECIALLY when they were up by 17 and 18 points. But they didn't.

And I suspect that is where DV's veto authority came in. I suspect DV told him either "no" or "let's save it".....but, of course, by the time he could change his mind, we were back in a dogfight, and the opportunity was gone.... :banghead:

I think you're reaching here, sorry. Did you not see Gun calling the plays on the sideline? I don't buy your "stipulations" BS. Read TK's post. It's not DV's M.O.

Gunther is not a defensive genius. I wish he was. Although the offensive scheme/execution deserves part of the blame too.


--->

[tk13]

I think DV is a "big picture" with "stipulations" type manager.....yes, he leaves the OC and DC to operate the day-to-day stuff. But I'm becoming convinced DV is orchestrating particular personnel decisions...


Like what? I'm pretty sure he gives personnel control over his coaches too... there was an article I distinctly remember when the whole "should LJ start" thing was going on where Carl said "why don't you ask the offensive coordinator".

[Mr. Kotter]

I think you're reaching here, sorry. Did you not see Gun calling the plays on the sideline? I don't buy your "stipulations" BS. Read TK's post. It's not DV's M.O.

Gunther is not a defensive genius. I wish he was. Although the offensive scheme/execution deserves part of the blame too.


--->

You could be right; but if you are, we are truly in for a long season though. So I don't want you to be right. :banghead:




Like what? I'm pretty sure he gives personnel control over his coaches too... there was an article I distinctly remember when the whole "should LJ start" thing was going on where Carl said "why don't you ask the offensive coordinator".



I think Hicks and McCleon, and the coache's "patience" with them....is because of Dick's loyalty to pets.....fug, could Sapp or Bartee, and Wilkerson really do any worse? :shrug:

You may be right....but I see DV saying something like, "okay, let's not press TO; and let's no risk being too agressive with our blitz packages.....let's make McNabb beat us" or something along those lines, as far as stipulations. And Gun, to be the good soldier....listens to the nice senile old man.

If this "D" continues to play this bad though, make no mistake.....THEN it's on Gun. I think this bye week is critical for Gun's future here; he needs to take the bull by the horns, or he needs to move on....one way or the other, IMHO.

[Chiefnj]

At what point does it stop being about the players and more about the coaching?

Coaching is huge.

Two weeks ago we saw Collins miss Moss a few times early in the game. Then, later in the game the Raiders stopped going to Moss. Bad coaching.

This week we saw McNabb miss or not see Owens a few times early in the game. But instead of abandoning Owens they stuck with him and he had a huge game. Good coaching. Andy Reid = Good, Norv Turner = Bad.

KC had a lot of bad coaching yesterday - not using TG, not riding Holmes when he was playing well, not blitzing to generate pressure, etc.

[htismaqe]

The people that think Gunther is being neutered by DV need to get the hair out of their eyes...

Gunther just isn't a very good coach and that's all there is to it.

[royr17]

Time to give Chester McGlockton a call .....

[Calcountry]

People, I know the defense was terrible yesterday but what about the management of the offense. Priest was on fire in the first quarter and he hardly touches the ball after that??? I also understand they are trying to help the left tackle by using the tight ends to block, but not getting the ball into the hands of the best T.E. in the league is inexcusable. The coaches need to re-think their game planning...Here is another n00b baiter. I am sick to fug of this shit. Go home, I know you . You are probably a friend of that Taco P.O.S.

[Clint in Wichita]

Gunther is disappointing me tremendously.
His M.O. is supposed to be "KILL KILL KILL!", but all I see is pu$$y zone coverages and a half-hearted blitz now and then.

I want to see the QB dead. Choking on his own blood while crying for his mommy like a dying soldier.

What I don't need to see is LBs dropping into coverage, and Surtain giving 10 yards cushions to every WR he faces.

I also wonder if I'm the only one who is thinking that all of the Chiefs' free agent acquisitions are going to prove to be a waste of money. Yes, that includes Surtain. He's getting beaten as often as McCleon.

Bell and Knight have been irrelevent, especially Bell. He either stole his DROTY trophy, or he's being misused. Mitchell is mediocre, and DJ looks like the real deal.

I'm sure when his contract is up, he'll dominate playing in a real defense, for coaches that know how to game plan and adjust.

What a waste...the Chiefs will be lucky to ever have such talent on offense ever again, and KC has been unable to field a MEDIOCRE defense in 4 years. 4 FUGGIN YEARS. JUST MEDIOCRE. THAT'S ALL KC NEEDED.

But no. It's not going to happen until this version of KC's offense is finished. Bye-bye Green, Holmes, Shields, Roaf, and TRich. Bye-bye, entire fuggin coaching staff all at once...and hopefully, bye-bye Peterson.

Some of you think that "Dammit Carl" shit is amusing but, like Grbackers were not so long ago, you will be proven oh-so-wrong in the end. Bank on it.

[Elwaysux]

I flew back with some of the Fox Philly people. Their take (supposedly from the Eagles coaching staff) was that KC assistants were clueless especially Gun. They couldn't figure out why their was no pressure on McNabb because it allowed the WR's to find a place to sit down in coverage and wait for the ball. Also they made a lot of changes at halftime and felt like we did nothing. They also were very appreciative of our special teams coach not changing anything for the on sides kick after the timeout. They also said Roaf being out neutered Tony G. by making him help with pass protection. Sure some of this is BS but it was an interesting spin.

[Johnson&Johnson]

What a waste...the Chiefs will be lucky to ever have such talent on offense ever again, and KC has been unable to field a MEDIOCRE defense in 4 years. 4 FUGGIN YEARS. JUST MEDIOCRE. THAT'S ALL KC NEEDED.

But no. It's not going to happen until this version of KC's offense is finished. Bye-bye Green, Holmes, Shields, Roaf, and TRich. Bye-bye, entire fuggin coaching staff all at once...and hopefully, bye-bye Peterson.

Some of you think that "Dammit Carl" shit is amusing but, like Grbackers were not so long ago, you will be proven oh-so-wrong in the end. Bank on it.


Could not Agree more with your take. We've always had DEFENSE in the 90s but mediocre offense. (with the exception of the 93 & 94 offense with Joe & Marcus that made mediocre look pretty good). Now for 4 freakin years we've had this offensive powerhouse that scares oppossing teams, we f**kin can't put together a decent defensive unit. Carl... you must be deleted! But as long as we dumb ass fans pack the house and set NFL records for season tix sellout! The Hunts won't see reasons to fire CP.

Look at what CP have gotten us through the draft and FA the last 6-7 years (incl. the last 2 years of arrghhh..Marty-ball, glad he was gone)
1. Joe Horn - umm lets not make him a deal so he can go somewhere else and be a pro-bowl WR for consecutive years
2. Brentson Buckner - lets sign him and use him sparingly and release him so that he can go on to form the best D-line front in Carolina
3. Donnie Edwards - he was really over-achieving - let him go since I don't see paying him top dollar since I drafted him in the 4th round.
4. Elvis Grbac vs. Rich Gannon, we all know this too well but in such a short period of offensive heaven, we have forgotten who let Gannon walk because he signed Elvis to a huge contract only to force Rich into one of the best QB OAK have had in recent history for our hated rival.
5. A small list of over-achievers at the end of their prime that CP signed for bargain prices - Derrick Alexander, Andre Rison, Marcus Patton, Shawn Barber to name a few.
6. Since 1997, if you exclude Tony G, KC have not drafted well with their top 4 picks. Thanks CP!
Let's see
1997 #2 pick :Kevin Lockett? #4 Pat Barnes?
1998 #1 Victor Riley? #3 Rashaan Shehee?
1999 #1 John Tait? #2 Mike Cloud?
2000 #1 Sly Morris? it was ok, he did find a hidden gem in Dante Hall with #5 pick in the 5th rd
2001 #1 - traded away for Trent ..ughhh
2002 #1 - Ryan Sims (much to be seen) but I believe some other guy named Dwight Freeney was still available when we pick 6th overall CP! and you another shot, you took #2 Eddie Freeman when guys name Ben Leber & Will Witherspoon was on the board. Both LBs.
2003 #1 - LJ (so far he does not look like a bust) nor has he been tested enough to see if he's for real.
2004 #2 - Junior Savii - who knows, stay healthy and we'll see if CP thought he found another Dan Saleamua and #3 Kris Wilson - all that hype and I don't see us using him much. OK> He did find another diamond in the rough in Jared Allen.

With that, could it really be CP's bad drafts and lousy FA moves that help collapse this once respected team (1989-1997)? Or could it be that they need some better scouting? Fire CP or clean house with your scouting personnel.

[Extra Point]

I think most fans recognized that our pass rush/blitzing was going to have to cover for our secondary the first few weeks.

Week one and part of the Radier game we brought it.

The last two weeks we let teams walk up and down the field on us. How often did we blitz McNabb?

Once we got the 17 pt lead why didn't we bring it?...

Nothing but "AMEN!!!" to that!

Upon leading by 17 points, we couldn't run the ball. Of course we couldn't. They were expecting that.... That's when we needed to involve Tony G, and that's part of why we got burned a bit on offense. T Rich in the backfield with LJ would have worked, too.

Any thoughts on what we're going to do without Tony Richardson, the most overlooked gem on our offensive squad?

[Mr. Kotter]

I think most fans recognized that our pass rush/blitzing was going to have to cover for our secondary the first few weeks.

Week one and part of the Radier game we brought it.

The last two weeks we let teams walk up and down the field on us. How often did we blitz McNabb?

Once we got the 17 pt lead why didn't we bring it?...

Someone should make Dick give a fuggin' explanation to THAT.... :banghead:

[Extra Point]

With that, could it really be CP's bad drafts and lousy FA moves that help collapse this once respected team (1989-1997)? Or could it be that they need some better scouting? Fire CP or clean house with your scouting personnel.

WOW!!! Excellent AMMO!!! Way to break it down!!!

[Mr. Kotter]

Gunther is disappointing me tremendously.
His M.O. is supposed to be "KILL KILL KILL!", but all I see is pu$$y zone coverages and a half-hearted blitz now and then.

I want to see the QB dead. Choking on his own blood while crying for his mommy like a dying soldier.

What I don't need to see is LBs dropping into coverage, and Surtain giving 10 yards cushions to every WR he faces.
...

That's what gets me....instead of "KILL, KILL, KILL" we are gettin'....."CHILL, CHILL, CHILL".....and "BACK, BACK, BACK".....hell, I'd rather lose because we are overly aggressive than lose being pussies. :shake:

[Redcoats58]

I dont know if this has been addressed or not but I wasn't expecting this defense to really start playing very well till about week 7-8. If you look at the amount of players that are new to Gun's scheme then you need to give them time to gel and most new defense's will gel about mid-season. Now that doesnt mean im not pissed at their performance thus far but I really dont expect decent play till that time.

Now if this defense doesnt do much at that time I'll be calling for Gun's head like the majority here.

[keg in kc]

I dont know if this has been addressed or not but I wasn't expecting this defense to really start playing very well till about week 7-8. If you look at the amount of players that are new to Gun's scheme then you need to give them time to gel and most new defense's will gel about mid-season.Yeah. I think we all got a little carried away with the expectations, when we knew half the starters were new, a couple of them young and unproven. We'll see how they progress.

We've seen so much bad defense now, that I think it'll have to be completely night and day before we'll believe it. But we've got a unit with several big-play capable guys now, unlike the past. They just aren't making the plays. Yet.

[acasas4]

Here is another n00b baiter. I am sick to fug of this shit. Go home, I know you . You are probably a friend of that Taco P.O.S.
Hey asswipe, all I'm saying is this loss is on all of the coaches. As far as being a "Noob" I've been a Chiefs fan and season ticket holder for 32 years, probably longer than you've been alive you crybaby btch. I know the last few seasons have been miserable, but I have seen a lot worse before the success we had when Marty was here. KMA

[Straight, No Chaser]

I dont know if this has been addressed or not but I wasn't expecting this defense to really start playing very well till about week 7-8.

The defense needs to play well enough for us to get wins ASAP, not by week 7-8. I'm afraid by then our playoff hopes are going to be over. You have to figure that only one team from the West is getting in this year. Bumcos have their next 3 out of 4 at home. If we hope to keep pace we have to win. Giving up 63 points in two consecutive weeks isn't getting it done Red.


--->

[the Talking Can]

Kendrell Bell...where are the big plays??

[tk13]

Kendrell Bell...where are the big plays??
I've seen plenty of big plays. Most of them are for the other team though.

[Archie Bunker]

Kendrell Bell...where are the big plays??

The fact that Bell and C Hall have done nothing at all is upsetting. I didn't expect a whole lot out of Hall but I thought Bell was going to be a blitzing machine. Instead he is a 3-4 ILB that looks lost on the outside.

[KCJake]

I don't think that Gun's been neutered, it's just that he still doesn't have the players on the field to play his style of defense.

His style is predicated upon getting pressure from the front four and letting the LBs wreak havoc while the corners play man coverage.

Right now, we aren't getting any push whatsoever from the DT position, and our DEs are getting tied up most of the time. Without pressure on the QB, the LBs are playing more coverage and the safteties are being held back to help McCleon since he isn't physical enough to play the man coverage that Gun wants.

I look back to the Jets game before Sims went out, and we were playing textbook Gunther defense. I hate to give Sims too much credit, but he was finally beginning to look like the guy we thought we drafted at #6.
Absolutely. I agree 100%. Right now we are not getting pressure on the quarterback. So you guys say, "send the blitz"!!!! Then what happens?? You leave McCleon one on one with a stud WR. Not a good idea. When Gunther's defense's dominated, they had shut-down corners and down-lineman that could get to the quarterback.

[Logical]

As most people will recall I was not all that thrilled with bringing Gunther back (other than it got rid of GR). I am not suprised by the inconsistency being shown by this defense.

[Chiefnj]

I don't think the Chiefs are that bad off. If you turn the ball over 4 times (once for a score and twice deep in your own zone) to a Super Bowl contending team you are going to lose.

Here is what DV should do - make two tapes. Make a tape of last years offense for Saunders to watch. Remind him that he has to use KC's three amigos - Holmes, Gonzo and Kennison. In that order. Tony G draws double and even triple coverage on occassion. Keeping him on the line is asinine and takes away a third of your offense. Without Roaf Holmes was somewhat limited. Basically, 50% of KC's offense wasn't effectively used.

The second tape will be of the Chiefs in the mid/late 90's when Gun was DC. A blitzing, hard hitting team, punch you in the mouth defense. The very same Gunther who made second half adjustments and didn't allow any 2nd half TDs in 6 or 7 games. Send Bell, DJ and Knight at the QB. Play Surtain man to man on the teams best receiver.

With some decent coaching the Chiefs COULD take 5 of the next 6 games.

[T-post Tom]

I don't think the Chiefs are that bad off. If you turn the ball over 4 times (once for a score and twice deep in your own zone) to a Super Bowl contending team you are going to lose.

Here is what DV should do - make two tapes. Make a tape of last years offense for Saunders to watch. Remind him that he has to use KC's three amigos - Holmes, Gonzo and Kennison. In that order. Tony G draws double and even triple coverage on occassion. Keeping him on the line is asinine and takes away a third of your offense. Without Roaf Holmes was somewhat limited. Basically, 50% of KC's offense wasn't effectively used.

The second tape will be of the Chiefs in the mid/late 90's when Gun was DC. A blitzing, hard hitting team, punch you in the mouth defense. The very same Gunther who made second half adjustments and didn't allow any 2nd half TDs in 6 or 7 games. Send Bell, DJ and Knight at the QB. Play Surtain man to man on the teams best receiver.

With some decent coaching the Chiefs COULD take 5 of the next 6 games.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Johnson&Johnson]

Minus Trent's pick6 and Dante's fumble that lead to a short field and the TD. That's 14pts. Which means, Def was really responsible for giving up 23 pts if you let them slide on that short field on Dante's fumble.

Al Saunders need to buy a new playbook. But start by watching tapes from the OAK and DEN game. Our offense actually started sputterin at the OAK game. Donkeys gameplan us watching how OAK disrupted Al's lame scheme (which I might add is 4 years too old for NFL not to figure it out). Donkey's only perfected the OAK def scheme and neutralize our OFF to perfection.

[Straight, No Chaser]

...
The second tape will be of the Chiefs in the mid/late 90's when Gun was DC. A blitzing, hard hitting team, punch you in the mouth defense. The very same Gunther who made second half adjustments and didn't allow any 2nd half TDs in 6 or 7 games. Send Bell, DJ and Knight at the QB. Play Surtain man to man on the teams best receiver.

With some decent coaching the Chiefs COULD take 5 of the next 6 games.

Sorry. Did you not watch yesterday? Tell me, what were Gun's second half adjustments? Cause, for the life of me, I can't remember seeing any changes.

We did have some pressure on McNabb but could not get him to the ground at the critical time. We didn't have the push up the middle needed to get shoulder pads and helmet on him. You saw what arm tackling accomplished (nothing). Sending the LB's anymore would have been disaster. Hell, putting all three of 'em on Owens might have helped. As it was, we were still shredded --and we knew it was coming. It's not devastating to losing to a tough, NFC champion at Arrowhead. The way we lost it was BAD. Gunther has a week to figure out how to make these guys overachieve, because that's what it will take vs. San Diego, New England, the Broncos, Giants, and at San Diego. Hopefully, by week 16, the Bengals will have nothing to play for...


--->

[Chiefnj]

Sorry. Did you not watch yesterday? Tell me, what were Gun's second half adjustments? Cause, for the life of me, I can't remember seeing any changes.

We did have some pressure on McNabb but could not get him to the ground at the critical time. We didn't have the push up the middle needed to get shoulder pads and helmet on him. You saw what arm tackling accomplished (nothing). Sending the LB's anymore would have been disaster. Hell, putting all three of 'em on Owens might have helped. As it was, we were still shredded --and we knew it was coming. It's not devastating to losing to a tough, NFC champion at Arrowhead. The way we lost it was BAD. Gunther has a week to figure out how to make these guys overachieve, because that's what it will take vs. San Diego, New England, the Broncos, Giants, and at San Diego. Hopefully, by week 16, the Bengals will have nothing to play for...


--->
I watched the game and saw a defense that is still adjusting and that is still average get put in horrible positions by special teams, fumbles and interceptions. I also saw an offense that didn't show any life until late in the 4th quarter. An offense that went 3 and out or 4 out and didn't help eat up any time in the 2nd half.

[Johnson&Johnson]

I watched the game and saw a defense that is still adjusting and that is still average get put in horrible positions by special teams, fumbles and interceptions. I also saw an offense that didn't show any life until late in the 4th quarter. An offense that went 3 and out or 4 out and didn't help eat up any time in the 2nd half.


YES!!! Finally, someone noticed the point Ive been trying to get through. Offense can't sustain drives and keep putting up 3 and outs. Leaving this rebuilding D out to defend one of the best offense in the league, and McNabb.

[Mr. Kotter]

I watched the game and saw a defense that is still adjusting and that is still average get put in horrible positions by special teams, fumbles and interceptions. I also saw an offense that didn't show any life until late in the 4th quarter. An offense that went 3 and out or 4 out and didn't help eat up any time in the 2nd half.

I think our run "D" has progressed; however, our pass "D" is horrible....and I'd be amazed if Warfield's return changes much, UNLESS Gun changes the scheme and/or style of play also--including press coverage, man-to-man on best WRs, and disguising coverages better.

Our "O" is struggling to be sure, but Roaf and Wellbourn's return should help....more psychologically than anything.

[htismaqe]

The fact that Bell and C Hall have done nothing at all is upsetting. I didn't expect a whole lot out of Hall but I thought Bell was going to be a blitzing machine. Instead he is a 3-4 ILB that looks lost on the outside.

:hmmm: