Why not Saunders as the next head coach?

[Chiefnj]

Saunders built one of the best offenses the Chiefs have ever seen for three years in a row. All of a sudden this year, when age, injury and lack of skills position players has caught up with the team (none of which are his fault) the fans turn on the guy in a heartbeat. What gives? Why doesn't he deserve a shot as head coach?

[Mecca]

I'm ready to go with a defensive guy as head coach now. I don't think I could deal with 5 more years of all offense and no defense.

[Hammock Parties]

Saunders didn't build shit. He had no idea Priest Holmes should have been the starter in 2001, and he ignored Larry Johnson. He's not a good judge of talent.

[Deberg_1990]

He already had a shot back in 1988 or so with the Bolts.....he failed miserably...

[PastorMikH]

Personally, he may head up what used to be one of the best offenses in the NFL, but I wouldn't necesarily say he built it. DV and Carl had a hand in bringing players in (DV and AS didn't even want LJ BTW).

AS this year is like a kid in a hot rod - he doesn't know how to drive it. He keeps trying to floor the throttle and the wheels spin, but the hot rod goes nowhere.

I can't even begin to imagine what would happen to this team if he were the one trying to drive everything. I fear it would be worse than when Gun was HC.

[Chiefnj]

He already had a shot back in 1988 or so with the Bolts.....he failed miserably...

So did a guy in New England his first time around.

As far as wanting a defensive minded coach, it doesn't always mean an OC or DC will build a team that is strong in that area. Billick in Baltimore was an offensive guy as a coordinator, Dungy has defensive roots and his achilles heal has been the D in Indy.

[RealSNR]

Bullshit playcalling throughout the course of the game, poor judge of talent, and an inability to utilize the players he's got, even when injuries occur.

Let me put it this way, there are just guys out there who are much more qualified for the job than Al.

[alnorth]

For that matter, I'd rather give the whistle to Gun for a 2nd go-round than AS.

[Chiefnj]

Bullshit playcalling throughout the course of the game, poor judge of talent, and an inability to utilize the players he's got, even when injuries occur.

Let me put it this way, there are just guys out there who are much more qualified for the job than Al.

That "bullshit" playcalling has led the Chiefs to having one of the best offenses in the league for years.

When your OL is ravaged by injuries and playing like crap, and you have a relatively immobile QB and a below average WR corps - you aren't going to put points on the board.

[Frankie]

He already had a shot back in 1988 or so with the Bolts.....he failed miserably...
No he didn't. He had a fairly respectable record after inheriting a totally depleted team and following a legend. Think Belichik. Saunders has a pretty strong resume in my book. He has served under Coryel, Marty and Vermeil. I would love to see Saunders keep the offensive philosophy going while our 'D' is obviously on the rise. If we can rebuild the O-line fairly fast we will have a pretty exciting team in 2 or 3 years on both sides of the ball.

[Frankie]

Saunders didn't build shit. He had no idea Priest Holmes should have been the starter in 2001, and he ignored Larry Johnson. He's not a good judge of talent.Holmes didnet show anything untill late in that season. How is that Saunders' fault? And LJ was "ignored" in favor of the best back in football that Holmes had become.

You guys deserve another Pendry, Hackett, Ray series of OCs. I don't. Neither do most Chiefs fans.

[Frankie]

That "bullshit" playcalling has led the Chiefs to having one of the best offenses in the league for years.

When your OL is ravaged by injuries and playing like crap, and you have a relatively immobile QB and a below average WR corps - you aren't going to put points on the board.
Exactly!

[dirk digler]

For that matter, I'd rather give the whistle to Gun for a 2nd go-round than AS.

Ummm...no ****ing way.

Now that being said I don't want AS or anyone on this coaching staff to be our HC next year. The only coach I do like is Solari. They need to sign him to a long-term deal.

[Jamie]

My feeling is, if they get to the Super Bowl Saunders is almost automatic, if they have a decent showing in the playoffs he deserves strong consideration, and if they miss the playoffs it's time for a top-to-bottom house cleaning, starting with Carl.

[milkman]

Holmes didnet show anything untill late in that season. How is that Saunders' fault? And LJ was "ignored" in favor of the best back in football that Holmes had become.

You guys deserve another Pendry, Hackett, Ray series of OCs. I don't. Neither do most Chiefs fans.

I'm pretty sure it was in the 5th game of the season that Priest showed what he could do, and it still took Al until the following season to realize that he had a RB with a nose for the end zone when the Chiefs reached the Red Zone.

What Al has failed at, this season, is making adjustments.

How many games did it take him to finally utilize more of a power run game and play action?

One of the things he talked about when discussing his previous HC experience in SD was recognizing the type of players and team he has, and adjusting.

It just took him to damn long to recognize what the Chiefs are/should have been from the start of the season.

[John Matrix]

Al is way too stubbornly devoted to the passing game. I also feel that if he were coach here you wouldn't really have a change of atmosphere around 1 Arrowhead Drive, which I think is a considerable problem. Vermeil is soft on these guys and it shows itself when they play competent, let alone good, teams on the road.

LJ hit the nail on the head when he called out AS for getting 'cute' last week. He'd rather be an offensive genius than an effective coordinator of an offense.

[Hammock Parties]

Holmes didnet show anything untill late in that season.

Wrong. As soon as they wised up and gave Priest the majority of the carries, the offense took off. That happened in the Washington game, which was like the 4th game of the year.


And LJ was "ignored" in favor of the best back in football that Holmes had become.
.

That's true. But Blaylock started as soon as Holmes went down. That's really stupid.

Furthermore, LJ didn't even touch the damn ball until the COLTS GAME last year!

Just stupid.

[Johnson&Johnson]

because great head coaches have more than one dimension to their football smarts.

AL knows X's and O's
AL does not know motivation
AL does not have leadership qualities (if he had any, he would have been offered HC job after our 2003 season)
AL is hybrid version of Mike Martz (overlooks every other facets of the game except his offensive play calling)

[Psyko Tek]

Why not Saunders as the next head coach?

one word for ya

REVERSE

'nuff said

[tk13]

He could be like Mike Martz... or he could be Mike Shanahan. I don't know for sure. I think you can make a great case that he deserves another shot at it... but I'm not real confident Carl is going to go in that direction.

[RealSNR]

because great head coaches have more than one dimension to their football smarts.

AL knows X's and O's
AL does not know motivation
AL does not have leadership qualities (if he had any, he would have been offered HC job after our 2003 season)
AL is hybrid version of Mike Martz (overlooks every other facets of the game except his offensive play calling)I hear he makes nice pie charts to demonstrate things in team meetings

[RealSNR]

He could be like Mike Martz... or he could be Mike Shanahan. I don't know for sure. I think you can make a great case that he deserves another shot at it... but I'm not real confident Carl is going to go in that direction.Is there a hidden story behind your avatar?

[ceebz]

You need a reason? Here's one for you...

1st play of the second half, Chiefs up 31-7 on the Texans, and Saunders runs a reverse. http://justinmg.home.comcast.net/forums/sad.gif

[Hammock Parties]

That pissed me off. There was no reason to call a reverse.

[RealSNR]

That pissed me off. There was no reason to call a reverse.When your running game just has not been effective at all for the entire game, you've got to try different things to catch them off guard.

Oh, wait.... nevermind :shake:

[Frankie]

Wrong. As soon as they wised up and gave Priest the majority of the carries, the offense took off. That happened in the Washington game, which was like the 4th game of the year.




That's true. But Blaylock started as soon as Holmes went down. That's really stupid.

Furthermore, LJ didn't even touch the damn ball until the COLTS GAME last year!

Just stupid.
Because Blaylock did a pretty good impression of Holmes when he was in.

[Frankie]

because great head coaches have more than one dimension to their football smarts.

AL knows X's and O's
AL does not know motivation
AL does not have leadership qualities (if he had any, he would have been offered HC job after our 2003 season)
AL is hybrid version of Mike Martz (overlooks every other facets of the game except his offensive play calling)Speculations. Not fact.

[Frankie]

You need a reason? Here's one for you...

1st play of the second half, Chiefs up 31-7 on the Texans, and Saunders runs a reverse. http://justinmg.home.comcast.net/forums/sad.gifShows his killer instinct, the apparent lack of which is one of my FEW criticisms of DV. That would be a good attitude for a HC to pass on to his team if he has SB aspirations.

[Hoover]

I think Saunders is our best bet if we do not want to have a total rebuild. I would love to Keep Saunders if he is willing to keep Gun. That way there isn't a new offense or Defense to learn.

[jspchief]

What Al has failed at, this season, is making adjustments.

Thats says it all for me.

I think Saunders is mediocre at game-planning, and horrible at in game adjustments.

Too often we come in against a weak rush defense and try to pass, or vice versa.

Too often we come out trying to throw in the second half when we';ve been running wild in the first.

Saunders was incapable of calling plays that protected Green from Buffalo's blitzes. After seeing what they did in the first half, we did nothing to try and expose it.

He's like a guy that can write the best cookbook in the world, but can't cook mac & cheese.

[Frankie]

I think Saunders is our best bet if we do not want to have a total rebuild. I would love to Keep Saunders if he is willing to keep Gun. That way there isn't a new offense or Defense to learn.
BIN f#@%ing GO!!!! :thumb: :clap:

[DaWolf]

Al Saunders took over an aging Chargers team and didn't get anything done. You really want him to take over an aging Chiefs team and have the same thing happen? You really want Al Saunders, a guy who is almost 60 and who for 10 years before DV gave him a promotion never advanced beyond recievers coach? Do you really want to repeat the mistake we made when we decided that Gunther Cunningham was good enough to be our head coach (and apparently Gun impressed Carl at the time more than Al did in the interview process, so what does that tell you?) Do you really want a guy who knows nothing about defense to take over this team at this time, with coaches the caliber of Shanny and Marty in the division?

This is the freakin' AFC West. We as Chiefs fans should be demanding the best, a high profile, intense coach who will bring passion and energy and winning back to this football team. To me, Al Saunders is not that guy...

[Brock]

Hiring Saunders will just amount to the same old coaching staff. It will be another Gunther situation where he is told who his assistants will be.

I don't think there is any question that either Saunders or Gunther will be the next coach. It's the Peterson way.

[Chiefnj]

Thats says it all for me.

I think Saunders is mediocre at game-planning, and horrible at in game adjustments.

Too often we come in against a weak rush defense and try to pass, or vice versa.

Too often we come out trying to throw in the second half when we';ve been running wild in the first.

Saunders was incapable of calling plays that protected Green from Buffalo's blitzes. After seeing what they did in the first half, we did nothing to try and expose it.

He's like a guy that can write the best cookbook in the world, but can't cook mac & cheese.

And yet with all the injuries and AS' alleged mongoloid playcalling the Chiefs are still top 10 in points per game?

[Hammock Parties]

He's like a guy that can write the best cookbook in the world, but can't cook mac & cheese.

Oh my god, that's the best analogy I've ever read. ROFL

[FringeNC]

Whether Saunders would be a good head coach, I don't know......but I don't think DV and AS get enough credit for the offense. Fans act like it's all the players. Do you really think Jimmy Raye or Joe Pendry or Paul Hackett would take this group of players and have the #1 or #2 ranked O in the league for three years in a row?

At least Saunders would bring something to the table...

[Hammock Parties]

I think Saunders is our best bet if we do not want to have a total rebuild. I would love to Keep Saunders if he is willing to keep Gun. That way there isn't a new offense or Defense to learn.

Saunders would keep Gunther. I don't know how many people know this, but Saunders has spent 15 years of his coaching career with the Chiefs. He was here under Marty the whole way.

Why the f*ck we got rid of him and promoted Jimmy Raye (who was, at the time, a RB coach) to OC is beyond me.

[htismaqe]

I didn't "turn" on him.

I've never wanted him as head coach.

What Saunders has done is no different than what Gunther did from 1995-1997. And I'm firmly convinced that Saunders as HC would have a similar result.

[ck_IN]

Hiring Saunders would be like running in place. We'll still get the same bizarre game (mis)planning. We'll likely get the same magical mystery drafts. The game time adjustments will continue to be absent. The rebuild that is sorely needed will just be kicked down the road a little further.

Saunders is just more of DV. If that's what you want you might as well keep DV.

[patteeu]

Holmes didnet show anything untill late in that season. How is that Saunders' fault? And LJ was "ignored" in favor of the best back in football that Holmes had become.

You guys deserve another Pendry, Hackett, Ray series of OCs. I don't. Neither do most Chiefs fans.

BS Frankie. Holmes was doing some pretty incredible things from the beginning that season (or at least by game 3). It's just that most of us didn't give him credit for it until late in the season after he kept doing it over and over. Personally, I believed his successes were the result of taking advantage of garbage time for much of that season, but his early-season successes are undeniable, IMO, in retrospect.

[Chiefnj]

When the question of who KC's next coach should be is thrown out for discussion, there are usually two main trains of thought. The first, people throw out head coaches from other teams who aren't getting the job done - Herm Edwards for instance is the coach de jour right now.

The second major theory is to look at coordinators who are fielding teams that have been solid on their side of the ball for a few years. It makes sense and you have guys like Crennel and Nolan coaching this year.

If you follow the second theory, then Saunders is a viable candidate. My point, if I really had one, is that people dismiss Saunders quickly but use similar criteria for guys outside the organization. There is definately a "grass is always greener mentality."

[jspchief]

And yet with all the injuries and AS' alleged mongoloid playcalling the Chiefs are still top 10 in points per game?When it works, it works. No doubt.

My problem is with what he does when it doesn't work, or how he tries to get away from it when it's already working.

How often do we run wild in the first half, only to cut our rush attempts in half in the second half? He outsmarts himself.

[jspchief]

There is definately a "grass is always greener mentality."The Chiefs keep painting the fence and telling us we're eating new grass.

I think a lot of us a ready to try the other grass. Maybe it won't be greener, but I'm ready to take that risk.

[Skyy God]

Wrong. As soon as they wised up and gave Priest the majority of the carries, the offense took off. That happened in the Washington game, which was like the 4th game of the year.

AS had only given Priest 15 carries in the previous 2 games.

Although I hate his ability to make adjustments and tendancy to run the cute play instead of the effective one, whomever new HC we bring in would be well served to keep AS around. The only OC who seems clearly better than Saunders is Tom Moore, and who knows how much success he would have without Peyton.

[Hammock Parties]

AS had only given Priest 15 carries in the previous 2 games.



That's exactly why he blows goats.

I'd keep Saunders as the OC despite all the bitching, provided we keep the same offense.

If we install a new offense, f*ck Saunders.

[Chiefnj]

The Chiefs keep painting the fence and telling us we're eating new grass.

I think a lot of us a ready to try the other grass. Maybe it won't be greener, but I'm ready to take that risk.


That's a load of crap. DV is not from the same tree as Marty and Gunther. The Chiefs have tried two different types of seeds.

[Ultra Peanut]

For that matter, I'd rather give the whistle to Gun for a 2nd go-round than AS.Agreed. And that should tell you how little I would support AS as HC.

[Chiefnj]

That's a load of crap. DV is not from the same tree as Marty and Gunther. The Chiefs have tried two different types of seeds.


He blows goats because 4 years ago in the first 3 games as coordinator, he didn't use Holmes effectively? Those first three games offset three entire years where the Chiefs had a top 3 offense?

I hope the new head coach and his assistants can come in and win 45-0 opening day, or whatever else they do won't matter because that first game wasn't good enough.

[Brock]

He blows goats because 4 years ago in the first 3 games as coordinator, he didn't use Holmes effectively? Those first three games offset three entire years where the Chiefs had a top 3 offense?

He doesn't use Tony Gonzalez effectively either. Hasn't for a couple of years.

[htismaqe]

That's a load of crap. DV is not from the same tree as Marty and Gunther. The Chiefs have tried two different types of seeds.

Of course he's not.

Saunders is to DV, and Gunther is to Marty.

We tried that once - it failed.

[jspchief]

That's a load of crap. DV is not from the same tree as Marty and Gunther. The Chiefs have tried two different types of seeds.I'm talking more about the move from Marty to Gunther, followed by the potential move from Vermeil to Saunders.

It's about continuing down a path that hasn't taken us anywhere. I feel it's a desperate attempt to cling to something that is not only fading, but also wasn't really working anyway.

I love what Vermeil and Saunders gave us like I loved what Marty gave us. Some really great eras of Chiefs football on one side of the ball. But if it's not working to the point that we need a new coach, then I think that new coach just come at it from a different angle.

[Chiefnj]

I'm talking more about the move from Marty to Gunther, followed by the potential move from Vermeil to Saunders.

It's about continuing down a path that hasn't taken us anywhere. I feel it's a desperate attempt to cling to something that is not only fading, but also wasn't really working anyway.

I love what Vermeil and Saunders gave us like I loved what Marty gave us. Some really great eras of Chiefs football on one side of the ball. But if it's not working to the point that we need a new coach, then I think that new coach just come at it from a different angle.


I understand your point, but disagree that it "wasn't really working anyway." AS' portion has worked extremely well. This year old age and injury has caught up with them. I don't think there is any OC who could have come in this year and helped the Chiefs do much better. When your line sucks, you don't have much recourse - see the Texans.

[htismaqe]

I understand your point, but disagree that it "wasn't really working anyway." AS' portion has worked extremely well. This year old age and injury has caught up with them. I don't think there is any OC who could have come in this year and helped the Chiefs do much better. When your line sucks, you don't have much recourse - see the Texans.

That's pure BS.

*I* could help the Chiefs do much better.

1) Run the ball.
2) Play action.
3) 3-step drops.

Isn't it ironic that we did JUST THAT against Houston and manhandled them? Saunders' biggest problem is that he apparently REFUSES to play maulball, even though it's necessary, because that's not his style.

[Hammock Parties]

You better call more endzone fades too, htismaqe. :D

We've run the fade twice and both times it worked. The fade rules!

[jspchief]

I understand your point, but disagree that it "wasn't really working anyway." AS' portion has worked extremely well. This year old age and injury has caught up with them. I don't think there is any OC who could have come in this year and helped the Chiefs do much better. When your line sucks, you don't have much recourse - see the Texans.When I say it wasn't working, I was referring to the overall product. As in it didn't get us play-off wins. Obviously our offense was spectacular.

As for the reason it isn't working this year, I agree that age has caught up to us. But that's all the more reason to not try and drag it out any further. Most of the players on our offense are going to be worse next year than they are this year. Meanwhile, our young defense gets better. I'd just as soon start building a new offense to rise on the heels of our young defense, rather than hoping that our young defense can hide the deficencies of our crumbling O. By keeping Saunders and dragging this out a few more years, we're just setting ourselves up for another one sided team.

[Chiefnj]

That's pure BS.

*I* could help the Chiefs do much better.

1) Run the ball.
2) Play action.
3) 3-step drops.

Isn't it ironic that we did JUST THAT against Houston and manhandled them? Saunders' biggest problem is that he apparently REFUSES to play maulball, even though it's necessary, because that's not his style.

He didn't try to run the ball against the Bills?

LJ had 27 carries for 132 yards. Green played like crap and threw 3 picks.

From 1995 until the day Vermeil was hired fans decried maulball and the 3 yards and a cloud of dust approach. People gagged and dry heaved at the thought. Now we should revert back to it? You should be begging for Gunther to get another shot at coaching.

[B_Ambuehl]

I don't think DV and AS get enough credit for the offense. Fans act like it's all the players. Do you really think Jimmy Raye or Joe Pendry or Paul Hackett would take this group of players and have the #1 or #2 ranked O in the league for three years in a row?

This is the most logical argument thus far. People forget that teams all have the same amount of limited money to spend on players. Coaching basically comes down to getting maximum playing value per $$ spent......getting the most wins with the talent you have. Let's work the numbers. Kansas City's offense is in the top 3 the last 4 years and let's see what they have to work with on offense and how they've performed:

They had a reject 8th round QB, reject undrafted RB who put up hall of fame type numbers and who's 2 backups behind him came in and have put up even better numbers, - they had rejects at the WR position morph into 1000 yd receivers, they had a converted reject TE morph into a pro bowl guard, a converted reject tailback morph into a bad-ass blocking fullback, and they had a highly drafted receiving tight end and 2 old ass 1st round lineman. What other teams have gotten that type of production out of that type of talent? I can think of maybe one that comes close and that's a Mike Shanahan coached football team.

Go through the rosters of every team and what you'll find is that most teams only produce numbers in direct correlation to the amount of dollars and high draft picks spent on their offense and defense respectively. Those that do better are very few and are usually only recognized once the people that built them are gone.

[BigMeatballDave]

Why not Saunders as the next head coach? No Dice...

[stevieray]

I won't fault Green for having a bad game, his father's passing was going to show up at least once.

I think from here on out you see more of Al adjusting to LJ's and the interior line's strengths, now that LJ is the starter.

[Skyy God]

This is the most logical argument thus far. People forget that teams all have the same amount of limited money to spend on players. Coaching basically comes down to getting maximum playing value per $$ spent......getting the most wins with the talent you have. Let's work the numbers. Kansas City's offense is in the top 3 the last 4 years and let's see what they have to work with on offense and how they've performed....

Go through the rosters of every team and what you'll find is that most teams only produce numbers in direct correlation to the amount of dollars and high draft picks spent on their offense and defense respectively. Those that do better are very few and are usually only recognized once the people that built them are gone.

Bad argument, at least when it comes to high draft picks. Denver only has 2 1st rounders on their starting team (Foster and Lelie) and yet they're productive year after year.

I think you're off in terms of money spent on the offensive side of the ball. My understanding is that we've invested more heavily on our O, at least prior to this year. Look at the defense. 14 of the 27 players are playing under their rookie contracts.

[B_Ambuehl]

Dude did you even read what I wrote? I said Denver is the only team that compares as far as the production they get not that Denver doesn't get production out of their talent.

I also neglected to mention Dante Hall. Reject converted tailback 5th round draft pick NFL europe guy morphed into the best return man in the NFL.

Oh yeah, you bet I'll be laughing my ass off at you guys bitching once Stoops, Herm, Billick, Butch Davis, (insert whoever the hell you want) comes in here to display their offensive philosophy.

[HemiEd]

From 1995 until the day Vermeil was hired fans decried maulball and the 3 yards and a cloud of dust approach. People gagged and dry heaved at the thought. Now we should revert back to it? You should be begging for Gunther to get another shot at coaching.


I do not miss that crap. I would love to see AS get the job.

[htismaqe]

He didn't try to run the ball against the Bills?

LJ had 27 carries for 132 yards. Green played like crap and threw 3 picks.

From 1995 until the day Vermeil was hired fans decried maulball and the 3 yards and a cloud of dust approach. People gagged and dry heaved at the thought. Now we should revert back to it? You should be begging for Gunther to get another shot at coaching.

It's not ALL about running the football. He didn't run an bubble screens against the Bills. And instead of running more PA (which was working somewhat) he went to the 7-step straight dropback and Green immediately threw 2 INT's.

FYI...

Maulball ≠ 3 yards and a cloud of dust

Martyball = 3 yards and a cloud of dust
Martyball also = RBbC
Martyball also = snatching defeat from the jaws of victory

Joe Gibbs = maulball
Dallas 1990's = maulball
2000 Ravens = maulball

THIS team plays maulball. The problem is that they only run it when they feel like it, rather than using it because it exploits our opponent.

Ah, inconsistency. Saunders is very good at it. And it's yet another thing he has in common with Gunther...

[Hammock Parties]

I actually like the bubble screens. They've worked fairly well this year.

In fact, run them with Samie Parker, because he's our most explosive WR.

Don't run them with f*cking Tony Gonzalez though! :shake:

[Chris Meck]

You really can't argue with Saunders' capability. He HAS made a top flight offense out of previously rejected skill position players.

You can also argue that at times his playcalling is retarded. No question. He is still the architect of this offense; resurrected the careers of Holmes, Kennison, Roaf (who was considered a questionable pick-up at that stage of his career) Wiegmann, etc. Trent I won't count because he had shown promise that had been derailed only by injury previously.

That being said, I would be FOR Saunders at head coach for the following reasons:

His offense works. If we hire from outside we'll start over with new schemes, new language, new philosophies that will take a season or two to start working. By that time, Green will be gone and I think people forget the awful black hole of looking for a quality quarterback. There's nothing wrong with the system; it's just that sometimes we don't utilize it all that well. I'd rather think that Saunders could stop getting so cute at times than think that we'd best just scrap it all and start over. I think last week showed that we ARE going to become more of a power running, play-action team.

Also, Gunther's defense is starting to come together. Hire a new head coach from outside, and likely THAT all starts over as well. Why? It's starting to play well. Why lose a year or two with a whole new system?

We wasted years because our defense was SOOO bad, not because Al Saunders screwed up the offense. Now age and injury have caught up to it. Why start over entirely? Why not try to plug the holes via the draft and FA and keep trying now that the defense is not a liability? The system WORKS. Why not try to improve it with personnel?

Whenever you turn over a coaching staff, it takes a while for the new systems to set in. You're gonna waste a lot of players' prime years, and a lot of the aging veterans last shot. That doesn't make sense unless the wheels fall off entirely. The Patriots can lose players and keep going because the systems are firmly in place. THAT is how you remain competitive year in and year out.

We lost two games we should've won. We played them without our HOF left tackle. We played them while trying to adjust to the very different style of our new runner. We SHOULD BE 8-2 right now, and firmly in control of our play-off hopes. Why throw it all away and start over? You really think another offensive coordinator's system and a new defensive system are the answer?

Chris

[Frankie]

Saunders is just more of DV. If that's what you want you might as well keep DV.
I'd take a DV with more killer instinct ANYTIME.

[Frankie]

He blows goats because 4 years ago in the first 3 games as coordinator, he didn't use Holmes effectively? Those first three games offset three entire years where the Chiefs had a top 3 offense?

I hope the new head coach and his assistants can come in and win 45-0 opening day, or whatever else they do won't matter because that first game wasn't good enough.
:bravo: Rep.

[Frankie]

This is the most logical argument thus far. People forget that teams all have the same amount of limited money to spend on players. Coaching basically comes down to getting maximum playing value per $$ spent......getting the most wins with the talent you have. Let's work the numbers. Kansas City's offense is in the top 3 the last 4 years and let's see what they have to work with on offense and how they've performed:

They had a reject 8th round QB, reject undrafted RB who put up hall of fame type numbers and who's 2 backups behind him came in and have put up even better numbers, - they had rejects at the WR position morph into 1000 yd receivers, they had a converted reject TE morph into a pro bowl guard, a converted reject tailback morph into a bad-ass blocking fullback, and they had a highly drafted receiving tight end and 2 old ass 1st round lineman. What other teams have gotten that type of production out of that type of talent? I can think of maybe one that comes close and that's a Mike Shanahan coached football team.

Go through the rosters of every team and what you'll find is that most teams only produce numbers in direct correlation to the amount of dollars and high draft picks spent on their offense and defense respectively. Those that do better are very few and are usually only recognized once the people that built them are gone.
:bravo: Rep.

[Frankie]

You really can't argue with Saunders' capability. He HAS made a top flight offense out of previously rejected skill position players.

You can also argue that at times his playcalling is retarded. No question. He is still the architect of this offense; resurrected the careers of Holmes, Kennison, Roaf (who was considered a questionable pick-up at that stage of his career) Wiegmann, etc. Trent I won't count because he had shown promise that had been derailed only by injury previously.

That being said, I would be FOR Saunders at head coach for the following reasons:

His offense works. If we hire from outside we'll start over with new schemes, new language, new philosophies that will take a season or two to start working. By that time, Green will be gone and I think people forget the awful black hole of looking for a quality quarterback. There's nothing wrong with the system; it's just that sometimes we don't utilize it all that well. I'd rather think that Saunders could stop getting so cute at times than think that we'd best just scrap it all and start over. I think last week showed that we ARE going to become more of a power running, play-action team.

Also, Gunther's defense is starting to come together. Hire a new head coach from outside, and likely THAT all starts over as well. Why? It's starting to play well. Why lose a year or two with a whole new system?

We wasted years because our defense was SOOO bad, not because Al Saunders screwed up the offense. Now age and injury have caught up to it. Why start over entirely? Why not try to plug the holes via the draft and FA and keep trying now that the defense is not a liability? The system WORKS. Why not try to improve it with personnel?

Whenever you turn over a coaching staff, it takes a while for the new systems to set in. You're gonna waste a lot of players' prime years, and a lot of the aging veterans last shot. That doesn't make sense unless the wheels fall off entirely. The Patriots can lose players and keep going because the systems are firmly in place. THAT is how you remain competitive year in and year out.

We lost two games we should've won. We played them without our HOF left tackle. We played them while trying to adjust to the very different style of our new runner. We SHOULD BE 8-2 right now, and firmly in control of our play-off hopes. Why throw it all away and start over? You really think another offensive coordinator's system and a new defensive system are the answer?

Chris
:bravo: Rep.

[Baby Lee]

Whether Saunders would be a good head coach, I don't know......but I don't think DV and AS get enough credit for the offense. Fans act like it's all the players. Do you really think Jimmy Raye or Joe Pendry or Paul Hackett would take this group of players and have the #1 or #2 ranked O in the league for three years in a row?

At least Saunders would bring something to the table...
How do you explain the Charger's O?

[FringeNC]

How do you explain the Charger's O?

I would definitely put Cam Cameron as a top offensive coordinator. He runs the same offense we do, and seems damn good at it.

I've always thought Brees had talent, too. Suppose QB, RB, and TE we are equal with SD. I think their WR corps is much better than ours.

I'm a little confused...what's really to explain?

[Raiderhater]

He could be like Mike Martz... or he could be Mike Shanahan. I don't know for sure. I think you can make a great case that he deserves another shot at it... but I'm not real confident Carl is going to go in that direction.


I agree, it could go either way. I'm not comfortable with the thought of Al as HC, but I admit it might not be as bad as I fear. The only way I will have any kind of comfort with it, is if Al brings in an OC. If he plans on calling the plays himself, I want nothing to do with it.

[Tribal Warfare]

I'm still on the Mike Trgovac bandwagon

[Raiderhater]

When I say it wasn't working, I was referring to the overall product. As in it didn't get us play-off wins. Obviously our offense was spectacular.

As for the reason it isn't working this year, I agree that age has caught up to us. But that's all the more reason to not try and drag it out any further. Most of the players on our offense are going to be worse next year than they are this year. Meanwhile, our young defense gets better. I'd just as soon start building a new offense to rise on the heels of our young defense, rather than hoping that our young defense can hide the deficencies of our crumbling O. By keeping Saunders and dragging this out a few more years, we're just setting ourselves up for another one sided team.


I must admit to not understanding this rebuilding mentality of some of the posters here. Why does rebuilding have to be a completely new offense? Why can't it be the same offense, but with new, and preferably younger players, who fit into the current scheme?

We bring in some young talent on the line, genuine QBOTF, and another fast kid to run the opposite side of Parker, and the rebuild process could be even quicker than usual plus we keep the same potent offense (if not more potent due to youth). IF it is done that way, and AS brings in an OC, I could actually be mildly enthused about him as HC.

[Hammock Parties]

Rebuilding and salary cap hell is kind of a myth in the NFL. You have to seriously trash a franchise to suck for more than a year or two. Our defensive pieces are in place and we still have plenty on offense. Maybe not to rank in the top 5, but to be at least average IMO.

[B_Ambuehl]

I must admit to not understanding this rebuilding mentality of some of the posters here. Why does rebuilding have to be a completely new offense? Why can't it be the same offense, but with new, and preferably younger players, who fit into the current scheme?

Because a new head coach will more then likely want to bring in his own coaches - and there's about a 99% chance those new coaches will bring with them a system that hasn't been as productive as the one KC is running right now. Saunders will most definitely leave if he's not promoted to head coach. The only hope the offensive system has of remaining intact if a new coach comes in is if Mike Solari is promoted to OC or if Cam Cameron gets the head coaching job in KC since he utilizes the same system. It's not so much that Saunders is the ideal candidate for the head coaching job, in a perfect world I'd keep him at OC and bring in a new head coach....but he won't go for that and that means one of the strengths of the team is lost.

[Hammock Parties]

I'd really like to see KC install the west coast offense. I believe Boerigter could thrive in it, and I also believe it suits Tony G better.

[Chiefnj]

Rebuilding and salary cap hell is kind of a myth in the NFL. You have to seriously trash a franchise to suck for more than a year or two. Our defensive pieces are in place and we still have plenty on offense. Maybe not to rank in the top 5, but to be at least average IMO.

When a team is about to lose the best pieces of its OL (Roaf and Shields) and its QB, then it is a complete rebuild on offense.

[Hammock Parties]

When a team is about to lose the best pieces of its OL (Roaf and Shields) and its QB, then it is a complete rebuild on offense.

I disagree.

Welbourn slides into Shields spot nicely. We draft our LT in the next draft.

Green's got a couple more years, and that's time to find another QB. Matt Schaub, anyone? He already knows the WCO!

[Chiefnj]

I disagree.

Welbourn slides into Shields spot nicely. We draft our LT in the next draft.

Green's got a couple more years, and that's time to find another QB. Matt Schaub, anyone? He already knows the WCO!


You don't lose two hall of fame linemen and not regress. Plus, KC is still looking for a decent RT. It all starts up front.

[Brock]

You don't lose two hall of fame linemen and not regress. Plus, KC is still looking for a decent RT. It all starts up front.

Willie Roaf is not finished yet.

[Red Dawg]

I really just wnat this whole offense gone. It takes a perfect o-line and superb talent to be really effective. It's too complicated for rookies to make an impact and just plain is worn out. The Rams have the top talent to run it and now even they can't win with it. It was fun but I hope they dump it next season and get back to a regular offense.

[Chiefnj]

Willie Roaf is not finished yet.

Tell that to his hamstring.

[Raiderhater]

Because a new head coach will more then likely want to bring in his own coaches - and there's about a 99% chance those new coaches will bring with them a system that hasn't been as productive as the one KC is running right now. Saunders will most definitely leave if he's not promoted to head coach. The only hope the offensive system has of remaining intact if a new coach comes in is if Mike Solari is promoted to OC or if Cam Cameron gets the head coaching job in KC since he utilizes the same system. It's not so much that Saunders is the ideal candidate for the head coaching job, in a perfect world I'd keep him at OC and bring in a new head coach....but he won't go for that and that means one of the strengths of the team is lost.


You hit on what I was getting at. You either bring in a HC who likes to run a similiar style offense, or you promote Al. It doesn't HAVE to be a complete new system.

I like this offense. Couple it with Gunther's defense, and we have one hell of a team.

[Raiderhater]

I really just wnat this whole offense gone. It takes a perfect o-line and superb talent to be really effective. It's too complicated for rookies to make an impact and just plain is worn out. The Rams have the top talent to run it and now even they can't win with it. It was fun but I hope they dump it next season and get back to a regular offense.


I blame that more so on the fact that Mike Martz is a complete f#cking tool.

[Rausch]

Why doesn't he deserve a shot as head coach?

Someone should give you a liquid plummer enema for even asking...

[milkman]

Also, Gunther's defense is starting to come together. Hire a new head coach from outside, and likely THAT all starts over as well. Why? It's starting to play well. Why lose a year or two with a whole new system?

Is it really?

This D has had 3 good games, Jets, Bills, and Texans.

Until they play well against a real offense, you can not claim they are coming together.

[milkman]

Saunders would keep Gunther. I don't know how many people know this, but Saunders has spent 15 years of his coaching career with the Chiefs. He was here under Marty the whole way.

Why the f*ck we got rid of him and promoted Jimmy Raye (who was, at the time, a RB coach) to OC is beyond me.

Gun and Al also worked together on Coryell's staff for a couple of years.

Gun may even have been the DC in SD when Al was HC, but I'm not sure on that.

[Hammock Parties]

Is it really?

This D has had 3 good games, Jets, Bills, and Texans.

Until they play well against a real offense, you can not claim they are coming together.

Oakland game. 263 total yards.

[milkman]

Oakland game. 263 total yards.

With a sorry ass QB, and a less than 100% Randy Moss, and a scrub in Lamont Jordan that is well on his way to proving his scrubbiness.

The Raiders O is only a little better than the Bills.

[bringbackmarty]

I'd really like to see KC install the west coast offense. I believe Boerigter could thrive in it, and I also believe it suits Tony G better.I think gonzalez is going to be traded. maybe this offseason, maybe next. He wants to play somewhere else...

[Hammock Parties]

With a sorry ass QB, and a less than 100% Randy Moss, and a scrub in Lamont Jordan that is well on his way to proving his scrubbiness.

The Raiders O is only a little better than the Bills.

No way.

Oakland's passing game was in the top 5 when we faced them. We shut that ass down.

[Hammock Parties]

I think gonzalez is going to be traded. maybe this offseason, maybe next. He wants to play somewhere else...

Nope. He loves KC too much now.

[tk13]

As I said last night, I think those Oakland wins are underrated. I don't think they're world beaters or anything, but they aren't a bad team. If we lose those Oakland games, and we came awful close, Oakland would be 6-4, right in the playoff hunt, and everybody would be going nuts over Randy Moss.

[Hammock Parties]

I agree with you TK, but we need to take the next two. If we don't, we're a lame duck team.

[Raiderhater]

Nope. He loves KC too much now.


I remember during the first jokeland game the guys said that Gonzo loved playing with Green, he respects his toughness and leadership, yadda yadda yadda... and wants to play in KC as long as Green is the QB.

Or at least that's what I thought I heard over the crowd in the sports bar and the muffled voices of the broadcasters due to their mouths being full of Moss' nuts. So I could have heard wrong......

[Tribal Warfare]

I remember when Theisman was citing Gonzo paraphrasing as follows, " I don't want to leave KC. I started my career as a Chief and I'll will end it as a Chief". Theisman spoke of this during last Sunday's game.

[DaWolf]

We lost two games we should've won. We played them without our HOF left tackle. We played them while trying to adjust to the very different style of our new runner. We SHOULD BE 8-2 right now, and firmly in control of our play-off hopes. Why throw it all away and start over? You really think another offensive coordinator's system and a new defensive system are the answer?

Chris

If the question is "How do we win a playoff game" the answer might be yes.

Remember, we could just as easily be 5-5 right now too. And plays like empty backfield passes which we ran before that get intercepted and returned for touchdowns don't make the best impressions either...

[Chieftain58]

It takes a Village!

[Frankie]

I think gonzalez is going to be traded. maybe this offseason, maybe next. He wants to play somewhere else...
When did he tell you that?

[Brock]

Tell that to his hamstring.

Wow, that's some amazing analysis, there. Where did you get your medical degree from?

[RealSNR]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason why

[BigMeatballDave]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason why
Exactly. WTF was that call right before the FG to run to TR? Stoopid! I cannot wait 'til Saunders is gone! :cuss:

[oaklandhater]

Dont let the door hit you on your way out AL .

[Mr. Krab]

It seems to me like he called a pretty decent game as a whole today.

[FringeNC]

Anyone who wants to break up this offensive staff is an idiot. Hopefully, DV will stick around another year, but if not, Saunders should get it.

[Frankie]

It seems to me like he called a pretty decent game as a whole today.
But he didn't call a PERFECT game. Nothing short of that will please us fans. Especially after we've been spoiled by offensive geniuses like Ray, Hackett, and Pendry.

[Frankie]

Anyone who wants to break up this offensive staff is an idiot. Hopefully, DV will stick around another year, but if not, Saunders should get it.

AAAAAAAAAAMEN!

[BigRedChief]

interview with Herm about the Chiefs head coaching job courtsey of bang

http://bangcartoon.com/shorts.htm