NEWSWEEK showing 14 point lead was of only 580 people

[BigMeatballDave]

The poll was quickly done over a two night
period, one was a friday night. On FALL Friday nights usually rich evil conservatives are at thier favorite HIGH SCHOOL football game. So we were not at home able to answer the telephone.

With Gore lying again about the mediscare
about his mother in law and his dogs medicine. Gore is making his own bed.
People are wising up to his stories and fabrications.

Some stories I've heard from Gore:

1. I invented the I-net

2. Tipper and I were the couple the movie
"Love Story" was based on.

3.I will give you free prescription drugs.

(by the way, KEMO treatments won't be covered by ALGORES health care plan.)

4. My dogs medicine is exactly the same as my mother in laws medicine and it cost my mother in law $100 more.


I might be missing some, feel free to add more lies and stories that AlGore
has told.

------------------
Chiefs Rock

[Raiderhater]

Henry: you might enjoy this link Ignore the Polls (http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=65000297)<P>

[redbrian]

You trying to campaign for Bush, insult all liberals, or are you just killing time?

I dare you to put one link to an article that speaks poorly of Bush's character, that you believe to be accurate.

[BigMeatballDave]

Do you dispute my post? You can't because its true. Have a good day.

------------------
Chiefs Rock

[redbrian]

That rendering of John Fund says it all for me. You can easily judge this book by its cover. What a nerd!!

[Raiderhater]

If one reads the article I referenced, this is NOT a campaign for Bush but rather a commentary on flawed polling and its impact on voter turnout which is what I thought was the subject of the post.

[Raiderhater]

If I didnt know any better, Clint, I would take that as a racist comment. It's a good thing your a good liberal.

[The Blessed Virgin Larry]

Sorry,
I thought this was a footbal topic since it contained the words "14 point lead." Every day it seems that I make a similar mistake.

[mcnall]

I originally looked at this election as another distasteful exercise of picking the evil of two lessors. I started off with two equally low opinions of Bush and Gore. While my opinion of bush (still fairly low) has increased somewhat my opinion of Gore has steadily declined. This is a rather amazing accomplishment considering how low he started in the first place.

Still wishing for a " NONE OF THE ABOVE" lever to pull but, seeing Bush as the least offensive of the two.<BR>

[The Blessed Virgin Larry]

Sorry,
I thought this was a football topic since it contained the words "14 point lead." Every day it seems that I make a similar mistake.<BR>

[redbrian]

I didn't know nerds were a race. Sorry about that. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/tongue.gif

[gh4chiefs]

14 points lead, 13 point lead, whatever. Even the detection of a potential flaw in one of the polls does not reverse the trend. And the trend is, the more Americans listen to the candidates, the more they decide to go with the Demos. Americans will stay the course.

Anyone have information on where the "I invented the internet" thing came from? I heard that there was some kinda discussion amongst our leaders regarding the nature of how the internet would be regulated. Way back when the average Joe was just hooking up. Gore made some kinda speech that the internet was going to huge and important in the extreme, which was news to some legislators. Then, years later, he refered to his influence on the proceedings as "instrumental."

But now people are saying they heard him say, "I invented the internet." Did anyone really hear him say that? Or was he simply referring to recognizing its importance earlier than many other government dudes?

------------------
Lick Bush in 2000 !!!

[AustinChief]

I'm not a Gore supporter, but word of mouth gave him a raw shot on this one.

Gore never said he invented the Internet. In fact, he said he was one of the people responsible for the creationg of the "commercial internet" and he was. He was the Senator that sponsored the bill to take the Dept. of Defense network, the University network, and make them public.

------------------
Parker
ChiefsPlanet Administrator
Jimmy Raye for President...anything to get him out of Kansas City
[i]More Moreau</I>

[redbrian]

Read my lips: Gore never said it.

[Raiderhater]

Duck: It has been cited in many places. The actual quote was:

“During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet.”

CNN Interview, March 9,1999.

[redbrian]

If what htismaqe posted is accurate, then what Gore said is true. If he sponsored that bill, he was at least partially responsible for **creating** the internet. Just like Ronald Reagan was instrumental in **creating** the Star Wars defense system, even though he never drew up up any schematics for military satellites.

Rush probably caught wind of Gore's quote and started yelling, "He said he invented the internet! He said he invented the internet!", and his listeners assumed he was accurate.

[Raiderhater]

For those that need more than the actual quote:

CNN Transcript of Interview (http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/03/09/president.2000/transcript.gore/index.html) - it's in his 7th or 8th response.

More information also comes from Wired magazine which gives a basic historical background of the Internet's beginnings as well as dispelling the myth that Gore played any real role in developing the 'commercial' internet either.

Wired's article on the gaffe (http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,18390,00.html)<P>

[Raiderhater]

Clint: in response to #15, please refer to #16. I thought the 'word games' would stay on the other board.

Maybe if Gore had a sack, he would admit his BS and move on.

[b-squared]

Bush website sadly all the info on it is true..

Bush's new slogan:

"I'm not a crackhead any more!!"
http://www.gwbush.com

Some tongue in cheek but its obvious the guy was a MAJOR party animal and Peruvian marching dust maniac.

[AustinChief]

That Wired article says it all!!!

It was two books published by Cisco Press that credited Gore with sponsoring the bills necessary to make the Internet a commercial entity.

Now we find out that he knows Chambers.

Which leads me to another political debate:

Nortel Rules!!!!

------------------
Parker
ChiefsPlanet Administrator
Jimmy Raye for President...anything to get him out of Kansas City
[i]More Moreau</I>

[redbrian]

Gore was obviously referring to sponsoring a bill, and not physically inventing the internet, & you guys are all smart enough to know it.

Even if he said he invented the microchip, his character still wouldn't be any more "iffy" than Bush's.


Why don't we all just vote for Harry Brown?

[Raiderhater]

Clint: he was? It is amazing your ability to cut this guy slack. Maybe if EG were a liberal and said dumb things you'd excuse him too.

He had his chance to expound on his 'creating' the internet line and didnt. Either he's that arrogant and conceited or too stupid to realize that someone might actually call him on his error.

[gh4chiefs]

Thank you all, I wondered where that "I invented the internet" smack came from.

He was the Senator that sponsored the bill to make public the Dept of Defense network and the University network, which gives us our internet.

So when he said, "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet", he was referring to his sponsorship of the bill itself.

Somehow, it seems less smacky when you learn the background.

------------------
Lick Bush in 2000 !!!

[redbrian]

Bush is almost illiterate! He said himself on Oprah yesterday!!!
http://dailynews.netscape.com/mynsnews/story.tmpl?table=n&cat=50100&id=200009191404000216960

Responding to criticism that he lacks the intellectual heft for the White House, Bush told Winfrey there was more to "smarts" than being able to ***"write well or do calculus."***

There you have it. Bush cannot write well, which means he probably can't read all that well, either.

Don't feel too bad Dubya, I can't "do" calculus very well myself!! http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/tongue.gif

[DaveC]

"Expounding" on the statement would have just dug a deeper hole. What I've observed is Gore being self depricating on this particular Quayle-ism . Something Geo. W. is employing lately with pretty good results.

[This message has been edited by Durtman (edited 09-20-2000).]

[DaKCMan AP]

So allowing a business's super computers to communicate together is the internet?

[This message has been edited by morphius (edited 09-20-2000).]

[redbrian]

OK, OK...let's say that Gore actually said he hand-built the first computer.

How do you feel about Bush admitting yesterday that he's nearly illiterate?

[redbrian]

If Gore helped push a bill through that established the internet as we know it, then yes, he did help create the internet.

I'm still trying to get over the fact that Bush is nearly illiterate. Talk about slipping through a crack in the system!

[AustinChief]

A letter to the Orange County Register (newspaper) said, paraphrased,

"I was going to vote for Bush, but after I saw how Al Gore kissed his wife on Oprah I knew he was the kind of man I want in a president."

Scary ain't it? Yes, it was a female... But I'm totally surprised every day in how people evaluate candidates!<P>

[DaKCMan AP]

Clint - But did he push a bill through that helped develop the internet "as we know it"?

[DaveC]

Hey! My nipples got hard, too. Is that so WRONG?

[redbrian]

Example: Ronald Reagan "allowed" R&D into Star Wars to begin by siging a bill(s), and he should get credit for helping to create the project, even though he's not exactly a physicist.

[redbrian]

Fly,

I know what you mean. Dubya admits to being illiterate and his supporters don't waver one bit. Amazing.

[Raiderhater]

Using Clint's logic and getting somewhat in the football mode.

Elvis can adequately state:

I created the 49ers SB team.

Elvis had about as much impact on that team as Gore did in 'creating' the internet.

I see how it works now.

[AustinChief]

Yes, there is plenty of mud to go around...

Dubya doesn't read books.
Al makes up stories.
Both embrace big money without a flinch.
Al ("Earth in the Balance") wants to triple fuel taxes on working folks...
Dubya wants to let the market forces (i.e. - big oil) control the price...

I find them both lacking...<BR>

[b-squared]

Bush website sadly all the info on it is true..

Bush's new slogan:

"I'm not a crackhead any more!!"
http://www.gwbush.com

Some tongue in cheek but its obvious the guy was a MAJOR party animal and Peruvian marching dust maniac.

[Raiderhater]

Bush's site as referenced below is just as true as this one:
http://www.algore-2000.org/

[Mosbonian]

Clint,

You are the ultimate reason I could never vote for a Democrat for President. I might not vote at all but I would never vote for a Democrat. The illogic in your stating Bush admits he is illiterate is inane, as is the reasons many Democrats are supported.

From Websters: illiterate - unable to read or write, also, having little or no education, etc

Now clearly Bush has a great education, and he obviously can read and write. So your statement shows your ignorance on what illiterate means. If you are attempting sarcasm it is so poor as to be superfluous.

Support Gore in your ignorance of you desire, but give the rest of us a break.

------------------
Jim Reynolds
Please no squiggles in my discussion zone!

[b-squared]

Bush website sadly all the info on it is true..

Bush's new slogan:

"I'm not a crackhead any more!!"
http://www.gwbush.com

Some tongue in cheek but its obvious the guy was a MAJOR party animal and Peruvian marching dust maniac.

[Raiderhater]

Dave: quit spamming the topic. Find something original to post or dont post at all.

[WarPaint]

Ease up on Dave, he has fallen pray to all of the sublimible advertising, err I mean sublibible advertising, or is it subible? Oh the heck with it just go call some reporter an @#$hole, I know how to pronounce that word.

[DaKCMan AP]

GORE SAYS

At a Teamsters conference Monday, he recalls "the lullabies I heard as child" and sings, "Look for the union label."

Analysis: The tune and lyrics were written for a 1975 ad campaign for the International Ladies Garment Workers Union. Gore was 27 then.

[redbrian]

Logical,

It's OK for conservatives to interpret Gore's words however they want ("Gore said he invented the internet!!"), but when Bush says he can't read well, it's *gasp* so very WRONG to interpret that as "Dubya can't read well".

Athletes that can barely read or write get through college all the time. Bush didn't get into Yale because of his intelligence.His grades prove it was Daddy's influence that got him in. I think he just cruised through college, while his father greased enough palms to ensure his son got his degree.

Bush said he can't read well. I'm just going by that statement. I can't help it if you think he was lying.

[AustinChief]

Clint, I gotta take you to task on the grades thing...

Bush's grades at Yale were better than Gore's grades at Harvard...

So only straight-A students should be President?

[AustinChief]

More polling info... from the Wall Street Journal...

The Newsweek poll turns out to be of only 580 likely voters over two nights. One of them was a Friday, when pollsters say more Democrats are at home. In 1996, Newsweek's late-October survey had Bob Dole losing to Bill Clinton by a whopping 23 points. Mr. Dole lost by eight. (Newsweek's pollster says it did a final but unpublished survey that showed an 11-point margin.)

Other polls with a better track record show different results. The bipartisan Hotline poll shows the race tied. The Battleground poll, a joint project of Democratic pollster Celinda Lake and GOP pollster Ed Goeas, got the 1996 Clinton victory margin right within 0.5% of the vote. As of this Tuesday, their nightly tracking poll has Mr. Bush leading Mr. Gore by four points.

Similarly, the Rasmussen Research nightly tracking poll now shows Mr. Bush with a 44% to 41% lead among likely voters. Mr. Rasmussen uses a telephone prompting system rather than live interviewers to survey respondents, a controversial technique. But an analysis by the Progressive Review found that his polls--along with those of Gallup and Zogby--proved to be the most accurate during this year's primaries, and his lower costs allow him to survey more people and reduce his margin of error to 2%. <P>

[redbrian]

I forget what their grades were, and I don't really care. Like I said, IMO Daddy paid for his son's grades. It wouldn't be the first time such a thing has happened. There is NO WAY a cokehead is going to get good grades at Yale on his own.

IMO yes. In a country with 300 million people, only straight "A" students should be President. The "creme de la creme" so to speak. If a person can't handle college, how could they handle the presidency? College isn't THAT diffucult, especially if you don't have to work to support yourself & your professors are being paid off.

[scooter]

Clint, once more you're nothing if not consistant.

And what exactly makes you think that Daddy didn't pay for potheads (algore) grades?

Anyone who says the whoppers he's said and had the gall to shake down monks for campaign cash while claiming 'no legal authority' can't be all that bright.

[DaKCMan AP]

Clint - Wow! It is hard to seriously debate anyone on the subject when he believes that someone bought their grades at Yale. Under that same assumption it can be said that Gore's daddy bought his grades for him and for years afterward his mommy had to sing him union songs to fall asleep at night.

[redbrian]

I'm not going to defend Gore because I don't care about him. I'm certainly not going to vote for either of these dim-witted dung heaps.

Every time I mention Bush, all his supporters can do is bring up Gore. Can't any of you just defend Bush, rather than trying to change the subject or attacking his rival?

[scooter]

So Clint, under your 'logic' if I 'admit' that I don't understand all the subplots in Shakespeare that translates to me not being able to read?

Or if I 'admit' that I can't write on a par with Steinbeck that makes my writing skills non-existent?

Forgive me if I hold that 'logic' in ill repute.

[Raiderhater]

LMAO...Gore is definately not immune to the 'daddy got him where he is today' mantra.

As a shill for Occidental Petroleum, Gore, Sr., sold his son to them as well.

[scooter]

First I don't feel the need to defend Bush against your unproven and absurd claims of drug use, illiteracy, bought grades, and special interest beholdeness.

Second when anyone does try to engage you in a logical debate you spin out into these aforementioned flights of fantasy.

If you can't debate in a logical, reasoned, and fact based manner, then don't complain when people respond in kind.

[gh4chiefs]

Dubya doesn't have to read well or "do" calculus to survive as president. Just form a committee of advisors that "know big words", and be the spokesman for what they come up with. Wasn't that Reagan's approach? Sure would be nice to know who those "advisors" are going to be if they will be the real rulers of our country.

Hey - I just heard that the Great Whitewater and Everything Thing Else Under the Sun Investigation is finally over. The Clintons are now the cleanest and least-corrupt rulers on the planet. And they have 62 million dollars worth of investigation over 6 years to prove it. They came up with NOTHING (nada, zilch, zippo). Now Clinton can get on with his presidency (oops, its Al's turn now!).

------------------
Lick Bush in 2000 !!!

[AustinChief]

Clint, your premise that only straight-A students should be President would exclude quite a few... including Abraham Lincoln, Albert Einstein, Harry Truman, John F. Kennedy, Richard Nixon, George Washington, Richard Gere, John Travolta, William F. Buckly, Colin Powell, Joseph Lieberman, etc. etc.

Grades are NOT the issue. The real question is can the candidate make good decisions and provide ethical leadership?

And on that subject neither of these guys can make that claim...<BR>

[scooter]

Try again UD.

The most ethical administration in history has produced (at last count) 13 convictions of it's members, 1 impeached president, and countless bouts of '5th Amendmend-itis'.

By contrast the Reagan administration produced zero convictions of it's members.

[scooter]

BTW UD, those 'faceless advisors' are called cabinent members. I'm pretty sure their names and faces can be found at white-house.org.

And show me a single president that hasn't relied on these 'advisors'.

[chiefsnathan]

Speaking of this latest dust up about Gore and his mom and dog or whatever the hell it was, does it trouble anybody else that the Bush campaign 'discovered' this? Does this confirm that they simply mine for mud now? Are they so under-confident about their issue stances that they have to go looking for this sort of stuff?

[This message has been edited by Donkey Drew (edited 09-20-2000).]

[Raiderhater]

As I understand it, the investigation was 52 million. That's still half of the amount that was spent during Iran/Contra. And before you begin to tell me those were 'real' crimes that were committed, the convictions were for lying.

Something this administration has done with impunity.

[scooter]

And Drew how would that contrast with the Algore campagin staff 'finding' RATS in the word BUREAUCRATS?

If the Gore folk are claiming dismay at dog-gate then they are hypocrits extrodinare!

[Raiderhater]

Drew: I'd like to agree with you that it's the RNC's fault, but I dont believe they forced Gore to say what he said.

If the press wont question the absurdity of his statements, it falls on his fellow competitor to point it out.

[chiefsnathan]

Titus:

The thing is, as I understand it, the meat of the statement was correct. Thus, they had a researcher digging through the business of Gore family members, in a desperate hope that they could find something to hang Gore with, even if that something had absolutely nothing to do with the issue. Pretty pathetic if you ask me. Pretty desperate, too.<P>

[redbrian]

I will try and look up a link, but DOZENS of members of the Reagan administration were either investigated or convicted during his 8 years.

CK,

If you can't defend Bush, just admit it. Stop acting like you won't because you don't like the way I reply.

[Raiderhater]

Im sorry you understood it that way, because it for all intents and purposes was blatantly false. The campaign even admitted that it was a made up story.

[scooter]

I look forward to seeing this list Clint. Yes some members were tried and even a few were convicted. But NONE of the convictions stood under apeal. The same CAN NOT be said of this administration.

As for defending Bush, 1. I don't feel the need, 2. Your accusations are absurd, without merit or fact and don't merit a defense on behalf of Bush.

BTW: If you're not a Gore person who is your guy?

[redbrian]

"My guy" will be the first candidate that comes along that is AT LEAST worth the gas it will take to drive to the polls.

I may be waiting a LOOONG time.

[Raiderhater]

Dozens, to me would be a minimum of 24. In the Iran/Contra scandal there were 14. 11 convictions, 2 overturned, 1 dismissed because documents were not declassified.

There were two pardons before trial began.

The vast majority of the convictions were for 'withholding information from Congress' - hmmm...sounds familiar.

In Whitewater, there were 13 convictions.<BR>

[chiefsnathan]

Actually, I followed the link on this board, where it basically said that the fact is fact: It costs twice as much to get the same medicine for humans as for dogs. The Bush campaign hasn't refuted this statement. They've refuted the analogy, not the facts. Again, pretty desperate, pretty pathetic, pretty typical.

[Raiderhater]

Here's a link for the Iran/Contra summary:
http://www.webcom.com/pinknoiz/covert/icsummary.html

It lists those convicted as well as the summary of the investigation.

[scooter]

Drew, there was almost nothing factual about dog-gate.

1. Of course human meds cost more than animal meds. The FDA has a wringer of safety test that human meds go through. This increases their costs.
2. Gore used the name brand version. The generic version is used by almost everyone and costs a 1/4th as much.
3. Dosages (and cost) of an animal med would be totally different than a human dose.

This was an attempt to push his drug plan through the blatent use of a lie. A method Willy has perfected.

[gh4chiefs]

All that anybody had to do to see "RATS" flash across the screen is to watch the campaign add. If watching a television add is "digging for mud", then we are all guilty.

I did like the Bush camp explaination, though. It was a "software glitch" in a zillion dollar campaign add. A software glitch that decided to enlarge the font in the word "RATS" and set the black lettering against a white background (happens all the time). Gee, you'd think that whoever paid the advertising company all those dollars would have watched the add before they put it on TV.

I guess that is the caliber of advisors (cabinet members) we can expect from a Bush presidency. Sure hope he reads more books and learns to "do calculus" so he can check their work efficiently.

------------------
Lick Bush in 2000 !!!

[Mosbonian]

Clint,

First, people who get straight A's are often unable to cope with the real world as they lack common sense. I have known many of this type. Second, power and influence will only get you so far. I do not like Gore's tree hugging, America last philosophy, but I am smart enough to know that he has enough on the ball to be really dangerous. He like Bush is intelligent, they are not the most charasimatic politicians, but they did not get where they are solely on their fathers and relatives coat-tails. I read Bush's comment as a folksy attempt at saying I am not going to tell you how smart I am, that many Americans do well while through good common sense. If you feel the need to denigrate him in a falsehood (i.e. there is no way to interpret that statement as Bush claiming he is illiterate) based on you misinterpretation of the meaning of illiterate it does nothing but make you look foolish. The left and especially the Democratic left has commonly used such tactics since the HHH days, if you wish to join them then that shows you are willing to throw off your own intellect in favor of the lefts favorite tactic -The Big Lie-. Unfortunately for the U.S. many of the masses fall for this sad tactic.

------------------
Jim Reynolds
Please no squiggles in my discussion zone!

[This message has been edited by Logical (edited 09-20-2000).]

[chiefsnathan]

ck:

My point is that the Bush campaign/GOP was using resources to research an analogy. They were mining for mud. If the statement was so clearly false, then why didn't they attack it like you just did? I think it is because they no longer believe they can beat Gore on the issues. They gotta beat him by destroying his character. I don't like that sort of politics, no matter who's playing it. <P>

[AustinChief]

For those of you who don't vote, I applaud you... Your reasoning is extremely rhetorical and lacking in original thought... So please do the rest of us who think for ourselves a favor (liberal or conservative or libertarian) and don't vote on election day!!!!!

http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/mad.gif

[scooter]

And speaking of common sense, wouldn't one expect the word rats to show up in a single frame of an ad that featured the word bearucrats? Methinks the Gore camp doth protest too much.

Speaking of common sense wouldn't one also expect that dog meds cost different than human meds. I would certainly HOPE so!

[DaKCMan AP]

Drew - Reporters did the research on my post #41, even they are starting to look up this guys wild accusations quickly.

[chiefsnathan]

Again, I'm not advocating Gore here. I'm commenting on what appears to be the dominant conservative political strategy. Don't prop your guy, destroy the other one.

Yeah, Gore is whacked and he HAS said some unbelievably stupid stuff. How does that make Bush better?

[scooter]

Drew if you consider the Bushies pointing out the obvious, dog meds should be priced differently than human ones, mining for mud, than so be it. I'd have to object however to your loose difinition.

[redbrian]

Logical,

You make it sound as if one of these candidates might actually know something about the real world. They have lived incredibly pampered lives. They have never "gone without" or "made due". They never had to go to work flipping hamburger patties after a day in high school. They didn't have to work while attending college, even though they both partied their a$$es off. They somehow managed to attend very good schools while earning mediocre grades. They have spent almost their entire adult lives "working" in a profession that is as far removed from the real world as acting, modeling, or professional sports. All they do is run their mouth all day long. They are actors auditioning for the lead role in "How To "F" Up The Most Powerful Country On Earth", and I would bet that neither of them has ever put in a hard day's work in their life.

This is why neither of these men could possibly represent me, and why I will vote for no presidential candidate from a privileged background. They have no idea what the other 95% of us need or want.

[This message has been edited by Clint in Wichita (edited 09-20-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Clint in Wichita (edited 09-20-2000).]

[chiefsnathan]

I guess I'm sick of hearing why the Democrat is WORSE than the Republican. I mean, you guys are fighting about indictments during a Presidency. Isn't one indictment each too many?

[the head]

I really don't care about either person whatsoever, but I can tell everyone here that Gore is going to win because of one issue: Abortion. The next President will appoint at least 1 (if not 3) Supreme Court justices. The last abortion decision was 5-4 in favor. I don't think that the American public will overwhelmingly support a President who is not Pro-Choice.

[diz]

For those of you saying that you are going to vote for the lesser of two evils, imagine the message we could send bipartisan politics if enough of us voted for neither party (see Gov. Ventura in Minn.).

Check out this site:
http://www.hagelin.org/

From this site:

Presidential candidate -
"John Hagelin, Ph.D., is a world-renowned Harvard trained physicist, educator, and leading public policy expert."

Check out their "20 Point Action Plan...".<BR>

[Mosbonian]

Clint,

I truly believe you feel that being from a upper middle class or higher background is a problem, that it destroys values somehow. That is an opinion that I cannot condone. People with a comfortable parents does not indicate that their parents had no values. I grew up fitting into both classes at different times of my life, and I found both highly principled parents and valueless parents in both groups. I am 45 and my children have never had to want (I guess you would call them privelaged) but they were taught respect, conservative values, and provided perspective on the good and bad side of as many issues as possible. I would trust them to do the right thing and care about the important things in all situations. At 19, 21, and 22 you do not have to worry they are not ready for the Presidency, but I assure you that they are well versed enough in life to understand all the issues.

Just as they might not make the right selections for my beliefs they would use their intellect and judgement for what they believed was the good of the country. I feel strongly that both Gore and Bush have the right intentions and the intelligence to act. I am just not happy with what Gore feel is right. I feel he is more concerned with being a world leader, instead of being the leader of the U.S. and protecting our interests. Some will like this in him, I for one do not.


By the way my comment about common sense and all A's had nothing to do with Gore and Bush. It was based on your statement that the President should be someone who made all A's, I feel that is elitist snobbery with very bad implications.
------------------
Jim Reynolds
Please no squiggles in my discussion zone!

[This message has been edited by Logical (edited 09-20-2000).]

[diz]

Logical -

"...the lefts favorite tactic -The Big Lie-. Unfortunately for the U.S. many of the masses fall for this sad tactic."

Uhhhh....okayy...."READ MY LIPS..."

I guess it was the left's favorite tactic that cost George W.'s dad a second term.

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

[gh4chiefs]

Ck-In #73. Of course the sequence "r-a-t-s" is contained in many words. Did you see the add? That was one helluva "software glitch". Full-screen black, block font shows up on a white background while film is running in the background. Its not like a simple word truncation in sequence with text containing the word "whatever-crat". Ask a programmer - he'll tell ya.

------------------
Lick Bush in 2000 !!!

[DaKCMan AP]

Disco - LOL! How about Clinton saying he wouldn't raise taxes before his first term. Also saying that we should not vote for a President who has lied to the American people. Then he raises our taxes and runs for re-election.

[diz]

Morphius - No kidding, I hear ya! Looks to me like both of the big parties like to make promises that they can't keep. I understand that in politics, getting something done isn't as easy as saying it, but when the lies are sooo blatantly based on results of focus groups, it becomes blindingly apparent to me that none of their promises will be fulfilled.

"The great mass of people . . . will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one."
Adolf Hitler (1889-1945), German dictator. Mein Kampf, vol. 1, ch. 10 (1925).

The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations is licensed from Columbia University Press. Copyright © 1993, 1995 by Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.

It's been happening for quite some time now...

[Mosbonian]

Disco,

Read my Lips is not a line that lost an election. The lies fostered by Billy Bozo (Clinton) who to this day practices the Big Lie better than anyone won the election. Fortunately a Republican congress has held him in check and the country is doing fine. Had his health care and other follies held the day we would now be in a depression that a World War (liked saved Roosevelt) could not have brought us back from, I savor the fact that the Congress has held the country on course against Billy Bozo's destructive instincts.

------------------
Jim Reynolds
Please no squiggles in my discussion zone!

[diz]

Oh, forgot to touch on this. It looks like the "left" got their tactics from one of the most right-wing leaders the world has seen in the last 100 years if not more.

[AustinChief]

1) Corporate donations to both political parties is at record highs
2) Both "golden" boys lack qualities in leadership
3) Neither can brag about their intellectual prowess
4) Neither can brag about their Vietnam experiences (or lack of them)
5) Both come from blueblood families
6) Both advocate tax cuts
7) Both advocate a drug plan
8) Both are pandering to the women's vote
9) Neither is advocating a real reduction in the role of gov't in our lives
10) Gore is pro, Bush is anti, on abortion

So tell me again, which of these candidates should I vote for and why...

No insults please... just explanations and positions without hyperbole...<BR>

[diz]

Logical - I completely understand where you are coming from. I think it is apparent from my post, your post, and morph's that both candidates (Bush Sr. and Clinton) lied before their first terms. Now, I think your point about Clinton being a master of it has more weight in pointing to how he got in for a second term.

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Well, shame on those who voted for him again.

Maybe I should start to use that signature deal...

[diz]

Fly - my response to you is on post#80. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/smile.gif

[redbrian]

Logical,

Now you're just repeating propaganda that has been programmed into you. A depression? Over a health care plan? Reagan racked up more debt than all other presidents combined and the economy wasn't THAT badly damaged.

Clinton needed to be held in check by Congress? I think that door swings both ways. Clinton helped to keep Congress in check as well.

Who's going to keep Dubya in check?

[Mosbonian]

Clint.

National Healthcare has not been exploited by the press in a negative fashion Clint. It was embraced, lo loved by the media. I got my data from a PH.D in Economics and from the research I undertook while getting my Masters in Business Administration during the last two years. The inability of any of our political parties to maintain the valve open or even more difficult, to start closing as the floodtide of social expenses rolled in would dwarf anything we have ever seen in our countries history. Once started, please name a politician that would be willing to deny medical care, no the money would flow out as never experienced before. Guess what the foreign countries and people are not likely to buy our bonds to keep Americans afloat in medical care. We could get away with deficit spending when the rest of the world knew their economies were tied to the health of our economy. Do you think they would be interested in financing our extravagant medical costs when it would have no adverse affect on them. No way in heck, they would allow us to plunder ourselves until we were in too big of an economic mess to recover. Well guess, what the US economy is so interlinked to the World economy that once we start sinking our undertow will carry them with us. That is a depression Clint. Please understand I have simplified this to the extreme for the sake of some brevity (not much). Do some research and get back with me.

------------------
Jim Reynolds
Please no squiggles in my discussion zone!

[This message has been edited by Logical (edited 09-20-2000).]

[the head]

There's no way we're going to live in a country where "national healthcare" exists but abortion is outlawed! I wish more people would care about the issue and less about "party lines". Who cares which party is in office?

[AustinChief]

Henry - Even worse on the Newsweek poll was the fact that only people who were of age to vote were polled, not registered voters.

Very lazy of the publication if you ask me.

[DaKCMan AP]

Russ - I'm honestly surprised that Gore has any chance of winning. I guess I shouldn't be.

[htismaqe]

Gore only stands a chance because there are many people that don't pay enough attention to understand the differences between the candidates or the issues.

There are honest people that think that both Gore and Bush are for tax cuts! They don't realize that Gore's 'targeted' tax cuts will apply to almost no one.

They also don't understand that Gore's tax plan is basic redistribution of wealth. That's called 'Socialism' and is the antithesis to a prosperous capitalistic economy.

Many (not all) of these people that don't pay enough attention to know the issues or the repercussions of the grandiose sounding proposals will, never the less, flock to the polls and place their vote as if it is their duty (it's not ~ it is a right, and with every right comes a responsibility. Perhaps a responsibility to pay attention?).

What is the solution for someone that just doesn't have the time (or the stomach) to really understand the candidates or the issues? Place your vote based on philosophy.
(cont.)

[htismaqe]

(cont.)
If you believe in individual liberty, that gov't is a necessary evil, that you (and everyone) have the right to try and get wealthy, that you can decide better than the government which charities deserve your hard earned money, that the greatest resource we have is not the gov't, but rather an unfettered population that is free to pursue their own success and to create wealth and technological breakthroughs not just for themselves, but many others also... then vote Republican.

If you believe that people are inherently evil and that gov't is our savior protecting us from each other, that people aren't smart enough to make decisions about many aspects of their lives, that no one should be any richer than anyone else (regardless of work, effort, genius, or luck), that personal freedom is less important than a 'safe' society, that gov't programs are what made this country great, that the US should not be a world power (we should trust other nations not to do us harm), that the environment is on it's last legs, and that 'profit' is a dirty word... then vote Democrat.

Luz
i hope this helps...<BR>

[htismaqe]

I'm bringing this to the top because I didn't want Clint to miss this.

Philosophy is important Clint.

See what you think.

Luz
this is a public service announcement... http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/smile.gif

[redbrian]

It's arrogance and a condescending attitude like the ones that were just displayed that may keep me from EVER voting for a Republican...you all think alike! You are SOOOO convinced that you are absolutely correct that you won't even begin to consider other points of view that don't line up with yours exactly, and anyone that is free-thinking enough to actually consider voting for someone other than a Republican candidate is either ignorant, brainwashed, or just too lazy to dig for "the truth" that the evil media is withholding from the American people. That is insulting, it's a cop-out, and it's also providing yourself with a built-in excuse to cover your arse with if Bush loses.

Real nice. Insult the intelligence of every non-Republican in this country because you are afraid your guy is going to lose. What character.

[htismaqe]

Clint,

Stop playing the victum. No one here has insulted you.

I suggest you think things through before you react. People in this country have the RIGHT to not pay attention. I believe that if they exercise that right, they then have a responcibility to vote based on philosophy ~ not a TV kiss. What is arrogant about that?

Or, these people could exercise their right NOT to vote. If they honestly don't feel that they've got a good handle on the issues or the philosophies, then that would not be a missuse of the awesome responcibility a citizen (voter) has in this country.

Luz
stop thinking everyone is against you and open yourself to some ideas... btw, which philosophy do you like the best?...

[redbrian]

Right now, the Libertarian Party is the only one that really interests me, but they can't seem to find a good candidate.
I just don't understand how you can believe that a person would have to be misinformed to vote for a non-Republican. You interpret what you see/hear/read one way & vote Republican, & another person may interpret the same information a different way & vote Democratic, even though they are well-informed and intelligent.

I would have no problem with a Republican president if he's the right guy for the job. I though George Bush, Sr. did just fine. There is no way, IMO that Bush Jr. is the best candidate they could find for the job. It wouldn't have taken much of a candidate to blow Gore out of the water, IMO.

[This message has been edited by Clint in Wichita (edited 09-21-2000).]

[Raiderhater]

If I may chime in here...

I dont vote dem for one good reason. Their philosophy has failed. They have NO new ideas and they try new things on the same failed premise--Washington knows better than you.

More spending, or even more 'creative' spending does not 'save' people from anything it merely makes them dependent upon the government.

Look at Gore's platform, it's all about spending more and more and more money. In order to spend that kind of money you have to confiscate...err...tax it from the populace

[redbrian]

I think both candidates are going to act like Imelda Marcos in a shoe store. It's just a matter of how the money will be spent.

Bush has said he's going to rebuild the military. I can't imagine a more expensive undertaking, and I'm sure a solid argument could be made that it doesn't need "rebuilding" at all. Whether the money he uses technically comes from taxes or not, every cent the government spends, no matter how it's acquired, is our money, & we should have a bigger say in what it will & won't be used on.

[Raiderhater]

Clint: liked your analogy...was funny.

I dont have even the slightest problem with the Feds spending money on the military. It is the ONLY thing the congress is tasked with in the constitution in providing for the union.

Also, it is the ONLY budget item that is re-evaluated every year. I trust the disciplined rep controlled congress not to go hog wild with spending like the dems did in 1980.

Spending money on failed 'entitlement' (Ugh! makes me want to vomit when I hear that word) programs is the biggest problem and they take up about 60-65% of the budget.

Eliminate them and you have plenty of money to spend on miliary and return to the people via lowering their tax burden.

[htismaqe]

Clint,

Those are valid concerns. Rebuilding the military is an expensive undertaking.

The Dems, however, have proven time and time again that they can find ways to spend much more. This isn't talking trash, it is their history.

Bush will spend significantly less than Gore. If you follow the voting in Congress, the Dems are constantly trying to spend more and more money while the Repubs are constantly reducing the amount.

Also, I've never said that if you pay attention you will automatically vote Repuplican, but if a person doesn't pay attention they WILL be much more suseptable to the media's bias and soundbites (whoever lies the most will look the most attractive).

Luz
http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Mosbonian]

Ahh Fall the Autumn Air and the torch of Politics, but I wax poetic.

Clint,

I gave you a response in post 81 to your last rebuttal to my discussion with you. Are you doing your research or are you just avoiding providing a response?

By the way Clint I do not see criticism for voting for other non-specific parties, just for the Democratic candidate. I personally feel a vote for a third party candidate of any type is a wasted vote with the Electoral College in place, but that is a different issue.
------------------
Jim Reynolds
Please no squiggles in my discussion zone!

[This message has been edited by Logical (edited 09-21-2000).]

[diz]

Logical - Your philosophy regarding third party candidates is a self-fulfilling prophecy. You think it is useless to vote for a third party candidate, so you do not use your vote in favor of them. BUT, if more and more people voted for a third party candidate, that candidate would get more and more of the electoral votes.

Look at Minn. Those people stepped out on a limb, and together they were able to elect a governor of a third party. IT CAN BE DONE. Look at how many people DID NOT VOTE in the last several presidential elections. Maybe these people were already convinced, like you, that their vote was useless to anyone other than the Dems or Reps, so they stayed home. I know, I'm one of them and it's not going to happen this time. I have had enough. To me, both major parties are just two sides of THE SAME PARTY. Neither one is innovative, neither one is honest, both are more concerned with filling their egos and pocketbooks and the pocketbooks of their constituents.

It is both the Dems and Reps that want you to think that voting for anyone other than them is useless.

As far as getting less taxation from one or the other, don't hold your breath. As mentioned earlier, both Bush Sr. and Clinton lied about this issue to help their causes. It is a focus group HOT BUTTON. "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

If you want to get more for your money, look to the man who is really in charge of your assets and the value of them: Greenspan. This man alone could cause inflation so great that any tax refund that you might get would be virtually useless. But, I have faith in him. Anyone who spends hours at home doing differential equations in order to maintain our prosperity is A#1 in my book.

[Mosbonian]

As an engineer I resent an economist co-opting the use of differential equations. No really I admire Greenspan, just the thought of anyone sitting around in their spare time manipulating S-parameters or H-parameters got me laughing. I really believe that is just hype.

[diz]

Logical - Yeah, it is pretty hard to believe. However, earlier this year, I did see on 60 mins or one of those "Newsmagazine" shows an interview with him and his wife. She even talked about how he would do the diff eqs in the bathtub!

Besides, as a mathematician, I know that most of you engineers use "shortcuts" in doing your diff eqs. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Chieffan]

Hey Clint, an excerpt from your post:

It's arrogance and a condescending attitude like the ones that were just displayed that may keep me from EVER voting for a Republican...

Obviously you're a democrat, because if we don't agree with you, the you must attack us all on a personal basis, rather that an issue oriented basis. Is more government the answer? Is redistribution of wealth via government programs the answer? Are more laws that attempt to codify acceptable behavior and thereby limit freedom in our personal lives the answer?

BTW, if the "media" would investigate and report, rather than decide what to report, then maybe people would make a better choice that would benefit us all.........

The "free media" is key in our system of government and YES they have chosen sides.

[Chieffan]

Luzap:

SRI, can't buy this:
(the people have a right to not pay attention to our government, the people in power and issues).

It is not a right, it is a responsibility in a democracy. The do have a right to vote or not to, but everyone should be informed so they can contribute to the public debate which is political free speech under the 1st amendment


[This message has been edited by Oxford (edited 09-21-2000).]

[redbrian]

If the media is biased, then conservatives are misinformed as well as liberals. Or do you get your information through the use of psychic powers, or do you only follow media sources that are biased in favor of your party?

C-Span doesn't show it all.

[redbrian]

It's also sickening how some of you are supplying yourselves with a built-in excuse if Bush happens to lose.

"All Americans that don't vote Republican are either ignorant or brainwashed by the liberal media!"

What an idiotic statement. I've had liberal friends that certainly are not "misinformed" or "ignorant".

You guys seem pretty intelligent. I really can't believe that you would stoop to such C.Y.A. tactics. If your guy loses, take it like a man and admit that the better man won instead of whining about it...don't blame the inadequacy of your favorite candidate on the "ignorance" of the American population.

[Raiderhater]

Clint: I hate to break this news to ya, but the American population is STUPID. Newspapers are written at a 4th grade level.

National and Local newscasts are nor more substantive than 3-5 second soundbytes and sensationalized for ratings and attention.

Regardless of who wins, it will be not be the 'better' man it will be the one who fooled the typically 20% that fluctuate between the two parties.

[htismaqe]

Clint,

Are you so immersed in your doggma that your brain changes the words in your mind as you read them?...

Or, are you purposely misrepresenting what people are saying so that you can use it to attack them?

I don't get it. Why are you trying to imply that people here are saying things they're not?

Luz
perhaps clint has no interest in a serious discussion?...

[Kckrazy]

Contrary to the "random" sample of this bb:

More men prefer Bush. More women prefer Gore. More women get out and vote = Gore wins.<P>

[redbrian]

It has been repeatedly stated that the only reason Gore even has a chance is because of the liberal media. That's called being a sore loser...and the election hasn't even taken place yet.

Titus just said that the American population is stupid. Talk about a generalization! The intelligence of 300,000,000 people described in 3 words: Americans are dumb. Yeah, and Mexicans are lazy, Asians can't drive, etc.

It's only been 8 years since we had a Republican president. Is the CIA putting "stupid drugs" in our drinking water? The media hasn't changed at all since then, IMO.

You call Americans dumb, and LIBERALS are the Commies?

[Raiderhater]

Clint: While an individual may be smart, people (the masses) are stupid.

If you have ever worked in an area that deals directly with the american public. You'd understand what Im getting at. The more glorified members of stupidity are documented on this Website: http://www.darwinawards.com/index.htm

We can take comfort that these individuals have stopped polluting the gene pool and thus helping increase the overall intelligence of 'people' in general.

[chiefsnathan]

That's exactly why Bush is losing-- he and his ilk think they are dealing with a stupid electorate. People aren't stupid, they're just too busy or lazy to put much thought into anything that isn't tangible in their life at that moment. However, people do get their attention piqued by hypocrisy and by candidates who have decided their election is a birth right. George Bush is going to lose because he's either incapable or unwilling to hang is butt out and take a stand on anything. People get the message.

[AustinChief]

Actually to be fair, the AVERAGE American has an IQ of 100!!!

Amazing isn't it.

http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/wink.gif

--AC

[redbrian]

If newspapers are written at a 4th grade level, then I'd put Gaz's posts at about a 3rd grade level, the majority of us at about 2nd grade level, a few of our teenage posters at 1st grade, and most of the trolls at about kindergarten.

[This message has been edited by Clint in Wichita (edited 09-21-2000).]

[redbrian]

That would also mean that Ernest Hemmingway writes on about a 7th grade level.

William Shakespeare? 9th grade at best.

[Mosbonian]

Gee Clint,

I was really hoping to get a 5th grade out of you. The fact that newspapers are written for a fourth grade level is a fact. It is taught as part of the Journalism curriculum at both Northwestern and MU, two of the finer Journalism schools in the nation. You are welcome to contact either to verify this fact.

------------------
Jim Reynolds
Please no squiggles in my discussion zone!

[redbrian]

Are there any mass publications that aren't written at that level?

Maybe "4th grade level" sounds worse than it really is...Carl Sagan's or Stephen Hawking's books aren't much more difficult to read than the sports page of the KC Star.

Maybe you can convey just about any idea using 4th grade-level writing.

[redbrian]

I assume that the American Spectator is also written at the 4th grade level, if not lower.

[Mosbonian]

Clint,

Is it possible I just detected you backing off on something, if even just a little bit.

I have always thought your signature line should be:

"I'm the Bulldog, now back the f*ck off"

------------------
Jim Reynolds
Please no squiggles in my discussion zone!

[This message has been edited by Logical (edited 09-21-2000).]

[alanm]

3rd grade?

Ouch!

O, I am slain!

xoxo~
gaz
fly away, fly away breath…<BR>

[redbrian]

Gaz,

Actually, that was a compliment, believe it or not!

Logical,

I'm not THAT stubborn, but it does look like it typed out!

[alanm]

Clint-

Yes, I realized that. I was just having some fun.

xoxo~
gaz
takes any excuse to quote the Bard.<BR>