A couple of reasons to say no to Greg Williams

[B_Ambuehl]

1. His scheme is overly complicated and requires a lot of reading and reacting. This is already a problem for the KC defense. Look at how much better Bell looked in his first 2 preseason snaps against St. Louis then he did at any other point in the year. "Playing" instead of "reading", is why. Not knowing who to cover and where to lineup already cost us a football game against Dallas.

Additionally, if Lavar Arrington couldn't figure out how to play that defense how in the hell are the dumbasses on this Kansas City Chiefs defensive football team gonna learn how to play it?

2. If the tampa based Monty Kiffin cover 2 hadn't shown itself as the superior NFL defense prior to last weekend then it surely did by Sunday night. Chicago has zero cover corners and 2 backup safeties playing yet leads the league in passing defense. The colts go from #30 in defense one year to top 5 the next despite keeping the lineup completely intact (simon hardly plays) and once again having zero coverage guys. Even Cincy has a football team that doesn't create pressuure up front and plays with reject defensive backs who are looking like all pros leading the NFL in turnovers.

3. The problem with the Chiefs the last few years has been giving up big plays. They've been at the top under Gun in number of 20-30+ yard plays allowed per game. They have an offense that can go down the field and put points on the board consistently yet their defense tries to pitch shutouts instead of forcing an offense to be patient and nickel and dime them all the way down the field. When an offense is behind they generally want to score quickly to catch up. Generally speaking, the KC offense can be counted on to get a lead at some point in the game. If you make the opposition nickel and dime down the field to catch up they get impatient and turn the ball over. What happens with KC is they play to pitch shutouts and create pressue but they end up gambling, ovepursuing, etc. and end up giving up big plays allowing other offenses to easily stay in the game. If they played more bend but don't like Indy itc. they would be playing to the strength of their offense, giving up less points and creating more turnovers as they forced opposing offenses to be more patient.

4. Greg Williams runs nearly the exact same high pressure blitz happy defense that has already been proven not to work with this Kansas City Chief defensive football team.

[htismaqe]

I agree that we should look to implement a Kiffin-style defense.

Cover 2 zone, LB's in the gaps, pressure from the front 4 without excessive blitzes...

[B_Ambuehl]

It should also be noted that it's a much cheaper defense to run. Indy pays their defensive guys about 5 bucks an hour.

I feel the future is a cover 2 out of the 3-4 with lots of zone dogs. Basically a zone version of San Diegos defense. Bring 1 of those 4 LBs on every play and mix up that zone. Occasionally bring in an overload and drop the DE etc. Man up D out of the 4-3 is history if for no other reason it requires 250 million in salaries dedicated to a 3 technique DT, DE, MLB, and 2 cover corners.

[RedThat]

I agree that we should look to implement a Kiffin-style defense.

Cover 2 zone, LB's in the gaps, pressure from the front 4 without excessive blitzes...

Are there any co-ordinators out there that fit that bill?

[Chiefnj]

Are there any co-ordinators out there that fit that bill?

Jags and Panthers DCs.

[htismaqe]

I'm not a big fan of the 3-4, but your defense would work just fine with a 4-3 too...

[htismaqe]

Jags and Panthers DCs.

Trgovac would be my choice.

[RedThat]

Trgovac would be my choice.

I think he would most likely be a head coaching candidate though.

[htismaqe]

I think he would most likely be a head coaching candidate though.

Exactly.

I want Trgovac to be our next HC.

[nmt1]

I think I've heard something like this before. Yeah, it was back in 2001 when we changed offensive systems. Man, that was a mistake.

[Deberg_1990]

1. His scheme is overly complicated and requires a lot of reading and reacting. This is already a problem for the KC defense. Look at how much better Bell looked in his first 2 preseason snaps against St. Louis then he did at any other point in the year. "Playing" instead of "reading", is why. Not knowing who to cover and where to lineup already cost us a football game against Dallas.

Additionally, if Lavar Arrington couldn't figure out how to play that defense how in the hell are the dumbasses on this Kansas City Chiefs defensive football team gonna learn how to play it?

2. If the tampa based Monty Kiffin cover 2 hadn't shown itself as the superior NFL defense prior to last weekend then it surely did by Sunday night. Chicago has zero cover corners and 2 backup safeties playing yet leads the league in passing defense. The colts go from #30 in defense one year to top 5 the next despite keeping the lineup completely intact (simon hardly plays) and once again having zero coverage guys. Even Cincy has a football team that doesn't create pressuure up front and plays with reject defensive backs who are looking like all pros leading the NFL in turnovers.

3. The problem with the Chiefs the last few years has been giving up big plays. They've been at the top under Gun in number of 20-30+ yard plays allowed per game. They have an offense that can go down the field and put points on the board consistently yet their defense tries to pitch shutouts instead of forcing an offense to be patient and nickel and dime them all the way down the field. When an offense is behind they generally want to score quickly to catch up. Generally speaking, the KC offense can be counted on to get a lead at some point in the game. If you make the opposition nickel and dime down the field to catch up they get impatient and turn the ball over. What happens with KC is they play to pitch shutouts and create pressue but they end up gambling, ovepursuing, etc. and end up giving up big plays allowing other offenses to easily stay in the game. If they played more bend but don't like Indy itc. they would be playing to the strength of their offense, giving up less points and creating more turnovers as they forced opposing offenses to be more patient.

4. Greg Williams runs nearly the exact same high pressure blitz happy defense that has already been proven not to work with this Kansas City Chief defensive football team.


This is exactly why I want the new head coach, whoever that may be to completely clean house on defense except for a few "key" players. There are only a few untouchables IMO:

Surtain
DJ
Allen (Hes alright, but he still needs alot of work)
Mitchell
Knight (Hes ok, but aging)

Every other starter is expendable as far as im concerned. Im sick of these guys, they cant get it done.

[MOhillbilly]

i agree w/ everything this B_Ambuehl
dude said it takes infinitly more talented players to run the 46 than KC has had in years.

[dj56dt58]

I was thinking this exact same thing last night when I was playing Madden. Normally the chiefs D on Madden plays just like in real life..i can't stop anybody and Bell is non existant. But i switched their D to a balanced D and used the 3-4 and 46 Schemes and gave up nothing. Bell was getting sacks and getting ints and was the player of the game. I know Madden isn't real life or anything but it just pisses me off that a Videogame can tell that the Chiefs would be better suited for the 3-4 and the acctual coaches can't. :banghead:

[B_Ambuehl]

bump

[ck_IN]

I'm not a big fan of Williams either and for many of the same reasons but a few Colts corrections:

Simon is a starter and plays ~75% of the time. He was out last week with an injury but they count on him to clog up the run.

They've made a big change at MLB and their FS is a full time starter this year.

The reason it works is because they get major pass rush pressure off their front 4. The Chiefs don't have that going for them so a cover 2 would be burnt to a crisp should KC try it.

[B_Ambuehl]

When I've watched them play Simon doesn't play more then 50% and doesn't do much when he's in there. What you said is why I mentioned cincinnati. They're not exactly a team that gets pressure up front but still defends the pass about 80 times better then Gunther Cunningham.

[htismaqe]

I'm not a big fan of Williams either and for many of the same reasons but a few Colts corrections:

Simon is a starter and plays ~75% of the time. He was out last week with an injury but they count on him to clog up the run.

They've made a big change at MLB and their FS is a full time starter this year.

The reason it works is because they get major pass rush pressure off their front 4. The Chiefs don't have that going for them so a cover 2 would be burnt to a crisp should KC try it.

No, we don't have the front 4 for it.

Yes, we should go out and get the front 4 for it.

[milkman]

My first choice, like Parker, would be Trgovac.

He's shown an ability to adapt to the talent level he has to work after injuries have taken away some of his key players over the last couple of seasons.

As for Greg Williams, didn't he use cover 2 in Tennessee before he went to the Bills?

[Tribal Warfare]

The problem with the Chiefs the last few years has been giving up big plays.

The problem, with this analysis is that the main point of coaching is discipline, game planning, and adaptabilty. The Broncos have figured Guns defense out like a six year old with an addition problem. As you said allow the Chiefs defense to over pursue, and be undisciplined with it's reads. Unlike the Redskins defense in which the stayed and honored their gap reads. This allowed them to only allow only 292.9 yards and 25 touchdowns for the opposition. Compared to Guns "attitude" defense which has allowed 346.8 and 37 touchdowns for the opposition. It's not the scheme that's lacking, it's the flexibilty of their coaching to the talents of their defense , and that's congruent to their gameplanning too. Gun doesn't possess either adaptabilty, or a high aptitude for gameplanning.

[Tribal Warfare]

My first choice, like Parker, would be Trgovac.




I agree with this selection also.

[milkman]

[b][size=1][size=2]

The problem, with this analysis is that the main point of coaching is discipline, game planning, and adaptabilty. The Broncos have figured Guns defense out like a six year old with an addition problem. As you said allow the Chiefs defense to over pursue, and be undisciplined with it's reads. Unlike the Redskins defense in which the stayed and honored their gap reads. This allowed them to only allow only 292.9 yards and 25 touchdowns for the opposition. Compared to Guns "attitude" defense which has allowed 346.8 and 37 touchdowns for the opposition. It's not the scheme that's lacking, it's the flexibilty of their coaching to the talents of their defense , and that's congruent to their gameplanning too. Gun doesn't possess either adaptabilty, or a high aptitude for gameplanning.

Exactly!

And Arrington wasn't benched by Williams because he couldn't learn the defense.
He was benched because he refused to maintain discipline within the scheme.

Once Arrington started to show Williams he would play within the scheme, he let him loose.

[MOhillbilly]

Exactly!

And Arrington wasn't benched by Williams because he couldn't learn the defense.
He was benched because he refused to maintain discipline within the scheme.

Once Arrington started to show Williams he would play within the scheme, he let him loose.

whats the diffrence? 6 of 1 half dozen of the other.

[MOhillbilly]

As for Greg Williams, didn't he use cover 2 in Tennessee before he went to the Bills?

im sure hes played it but scheme wise all those guys came outta buddy ryans 46 D.
The Titans played what the media called a 46 hybrid aswell as the bills.

[milkman]

whats the diffrence? 6 of 1 half dozen of the other.

There's a big difference between the ability to learn, and the refusal to use what you've learned.

[B_Ambuehl]

The problem, with this analysis is that the main point of coaching is discipline, game planning, and adaptabilty. The Broncos have figured Guns defense out like a six year old with an addition problem. As you said allow the Chiefs defense to over pursue, and be undisciplined with it's reads. Unlike the Redskins defense in which the stayed and honored their gap reads. This allowed them to only allow only 292.9 yards and 25 touchdowns for the opposition. Compared to Guns "attitude" defense which has allowed 346.8 and 37 touchdowns for the opposition. It's not the scheme that's lacking, it's the flexibilty of their coaching to the talents of their defense , and that's congruent to their gameplanning too. Gun doesn't possess either adaptabilty, or a high aptitude for gameplanning.



Remember that next year when the defense is running around like chickens with their heads cut off giving up 400+ yards per game again. I don't think these guys are capable of doing anything complicated. I'd say Greg Wesley is the epitome of the KC defense. Ask him to hit and he's ok. Tell him exactly where to go on a play and he's ok. Ask him to think and make a decisions and he's totally lost. Warfield is exactly the same way. Allen is exactly the same way. Bell is the same way. The only "cerebral" players on this defense are Hicks, Knight, and Surtain.

[MOhillbilly]

There's a big difference between the ability to learn, and the refusal to use what you've learned.

your learnin eitherway.

[Chiefnj]

I heard rumors that as head coach Williams was very conservative ala Marty; playing not to lose.

[milkman]

your learnin eitherway.

No.

An inabilty to learn means you aren't learnin', because you can't.

[FringeNC]

Actually, I think an attacking style D fits our explosive offense well. If we give up a big play, is that a big deal? We'll get back on the field and score. What I hate to watch is D like we played in the 4th quarter against Dallas, getting short-passed all the way down the field, and eating up a lot of clock. Honestly, Gun's D looks just like Robinson's D to me: very little pressure on the QB, and WRs running open all over the field. That is a lethal mix.

I can't think of a single DC I'd rather have than Gregg Williams. The question is what would become of our offense with Gregg Williams as head coach? If Al didn't take all the assistants with him when he leaves, I think we might be okay. Green is almost a coach on the field. If Al did take all the assistants with him, we may be in trouble.

[milkman]

I heard rumors that as head coach Williams was very conservative ala Marty; playing not to lose.

I'm not sure that was by choice.

He had The Statue of Bledsoe, behind a crappy O-Line, with Travis Henry

The only chance he had was to play conservative, run the ball, and hope that the defense could make enough plays to help them win.

[MOhillbilly]

I heard rumors that as head coach Williams was very conservative ala Marty; playing not to lose.

like thats something new?

[MOhillbilly]

When asked about LaVar's inert status on the defense, Joe Bugel said, "You can't be a flash; you can't make one big play, then make four or five bad plays." Gregg Williams said that players who want to play "have to do it in practice." And according to Bill Maas, a Fox analyst who worked the Denver game, Williams pointed out LaVar "hadn't been to any of the offseason programs." Sounds like they're building a case, doesn't it? Bugel said the most important thing about the Redskins' defense is "discipline." Maas said Williams explained his defense is "precise." The inference is LaVar is neither disciplined, nor precise, that he is -- to use a word often associated with him -- a "freelancer."


&

"I know he's disappointed about not making more of an impact, not playing more," said Gibbs, who met with Arrington yesterday. "It's something we just have to work our way through. We've got a lot of talented guys on our defense who can do a lot of things for us. Lots of times our blitzing comes from the secondary. Our defensive schemes try to use all of our people.
"Last year LaVar went through a tough injury thing. This year he's not a starter. It revolves then around the packages and how much [his] packages are called."
Gibbs said he no longer is concerned about Arrington's knee, which kept him off the field during the first two weeks of training camp.
"People say maybe [I'm] not really healthy," said Arrington, who before that injury was the focal point of the defense. "I'm 100-percent healthy. I think I know my body well enough."
Arrington said he doesn't really know why he doesn't fit Williams' system as well as new starter Warrick Holdman or pass-rushing specialist Chris Clemons.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
you can read or not into those statements - but my read is that it sounds like he was abit soft between the ears cause he didnt go to the offseason programs.

hes learnin-

[milkman]

hes learnin-

Exactly.

That's what I've been saying.

Which means his problem wasn't the inability to learn.

[B_Ambuehl]

Actually, I think an attacking style D fits our explosive offense well. If we give up a big play, is that a big deal? We'll get back on the field and score. What I hate to watch is D like we played in the 4th quarter against Dallas, getting short-passed all the way down the field, and eating up a lot of clock.

An attacking D is by definition a gambling D. The problem is when an offense goes against Kansas City they know they need to create the big play down the field in order to score enough points to win. Now, instead of playing to stop the big play, the KC defense plays to kill the short play leaving themselves open for the long play. Does that not make sense?

The problem with that is that attacking D gives up too many big plays. As I said already this defense leads the league ever year in 30+ yard plays given up year in and year out. The main reason Tiki Barber had 200+ yards last week is because guys were trying to stop him for negative yards by penetrating into the backfield instead of trying to contain him for 3 yard gains. Gun plays to pitch shutouts but he doesn't need to because the offense is not the '90's chiefs that can only score 16 points a game. In contrast, watch how a defense like Indy forces an offense to really work their way down the field in short 3-5 yard chunks. They take away the big play first and foremost. They keep everything in front of them and come up and hit. There's a reason offensive coordinators try to get big plays down the field. Because when you're forced to drive the ball down the field on 15 play drives each play there's that much greater chance of making a mistake that kills the drive.....a false start, a holding call, a fumble, or an interception. It's a real struggle to outscore a proficient offense that runs that style of defense.

Against Dallas, KC comes out in a cover 1 and gives up an 80 yard bomb down the field......they come up on a 3rd and 4 and try to kill the ball carrier in the backfield giving up a 40 yard run down the field.......against Denver they blitz on 2nd and 10 and give up a 60 yard screen pass down the field. Every week it's the same bullshit. Next week it will be Gates down the field for 40 yard bombs vs blitzes and LT on 40 yard cutback runs with 7 or 8 defenders in the backfield.

[MOhillbilly]

imo in this day and age to have a true attack style D youd have to put all your eggs in one basket.
the 46 wasnt just the scheme. it was the killers that lined up for buddy ryan.

[FringeNC]

An attacking D is by definition a gambling D. The problem is when an offense goes against Kansas City they know they need to create the big play down the field in order to score enough points to win. Now, instead of playing to stop the big play, the KC defense plays to kill the short play leaving themselves open for the long play. Does that not make sense?

The problem with that is that attacking D gives up too many big plays. As I said already this defense leads the league ever year in 30+ yard plays given up year in and year out. The main reason Tiki Barber had 200+ yards last week is because guys were trying to stop him for negative yards by penetrating into the backfield instead of trying to contain him for 3 yard gains. Gun plays to pitch shutouts but he doesn't need to because the offense is not the '90's chiefs that can only score 16 points a game. In contrast, watch how a defense like Indy forces an offense to really work their way down the field in short 3-5 yard chunks. They take away the big play first and foremost. They keep everything in front of them and come up and hit. There's a reason offensive coordinators try to get big plays down the field. Because when you're forced to drive the ball down the field on 15 play drives each play there's that much greater chance of making a mistake that kills the drive.....a false start, a holding call, a fumble, or an interception. It's a real struggle to outscore a proficient offense that runs that style of defense.

Against Dallas, KC comes out in a cover 1 and gives up an 80 yard bomb down the field......they come up on a 3rd and 4 and try to kill the ball carrier in the backfield giving up a 40 yard run down the field.......against Denver they blitz on 2nd and 10 and give up a 60 yard screen pass down the field. Every week it's the same bullshit. Next week it will be Gates down the field for 40 yard bombs vs blitzes and LT on 40 yard cutback runs with 7 or 8 defenders in the backfield.


I agree our D is putrid, but I don't think it's a function of the fact that we play aggressive. (And I am not convinced we play aggressive pass defense at all.) I don't think Gun is any good. Imagine if we had the Washington Redskins D. Compare their stats to ours. In two games against Dallas, they gave up a total of 20 points.

[B_Ambuehl]

If you don't think the paltry pass defense is a result of the defense being aggressive look up what teams lead the NFL in average yards to go on 2nd down the last 2 years and compare that to their total defense.

Here's a hint: KC finished first in the NFL last year in opponents yards to go on 2nd down yet last or 2nd to last in total defense. Same deal this year. Now, figure this out. How does a defense finish first in opponents yards to go on 2nd down yet last in total defense?

It doesn't take much of a genius to figure that out. If you attack the line of scrimmage with 10 guys you kill conservative plays (which generally occur on 1st down), yet give up big plays.

[FringeNC]

If you don't think the paltry pass defense is a result of the defense being aggressive look up what teams lead the NFL in average yards to go on 2nd down the last 2 years and compare that to their total defense.

Here's a hint: KC finished first in the NFL last year in opponents yards to go on 2nd down yet last or 2nd to last in total defense. Same deal this year. Now, figure this out. How does a defense finish first in opponents yards to go on 2nd down yet last in total defense?

It doesn't take much of a genius to figure that out. If you attack the line of scrimmage with 10 guys you kill conservative plays (which generally occur on 1st down), yet give up big plays.

There is no doubt we sell out to stop the run. Those stats are actually amazing. First, why did teams continue to run on 1st down against us (knowing we stacked the line), and second, we gave up big plays on obvious passing downs. An aggressive D should be giving up the big plays on 1st down and 3rd and short, not 2nd and long.

Gregg Williams is able run an unpredictable, aggressive D. Gunther is not.

[Hammock Parties]

We need to get B_Ambuehl and htismaqe on the coaching staff.

Somehow, SOME WAY!

[harpes]

What about Greg Blache. I think we checked him out before GC signed.

[Chiefnj]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search

"Gregg Williams is the current defensive coordinator of the Washington Redskins and the former head coach of the Buffalo Bills from 2001-2003.

He earned his first head coach position with the Bills after a successful stint as defensive coordinator for the Tennessee Titans.

As the Bills' head coach his team was known for overly conservative calls, especially on offense. Williams was 17-31 as the Bills coach, and was fired after a 6-10 2003 campaign.

With Washington, Williams has utilized an aggressive defensive scheme that ranked 3rd in 2004."


"Overly conservative" on offense. Hmmm.

[Hammock Parties]

Almost all the Bills fans I asked over at billszone.com said he sucks arse.

[milkman]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search

"Gregg Williams is the current defensive coordinator of the Washington Redskins and the former head coach of the Buffalo Bills from 2001-2003.

He earned his first head coach position with the Bills after a successful stint as defensive coordinator for the Tennessee Titans.

As the Bills' head coach his team was known for overly conservative calls, especially on offense. Williams was 17-31 as the Bills coach, and was fired after a 6-10 2003 campaign.

With Washington, Williams has utilized an aggressive defensive scheme that ranked 3rd in 2004."


"Overly conservative" on offense. Hmmm.

Yeah, as I told someone else today, when you have a terrible O-Line, and a statue like Bledsoe, with Travis Henry at RB, you really don't have much choice but to go conservative and hope that your D can win games.

[Chiefnj]

Almost all the Bills fans I asked over at billszone.com said he sucks arse.

Yep. Their general attitude is that both Mularkey and Williams suck/sucked and good riddance.

[MOhillbilly]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search

"Gregg Williams is the current defensive coordinator of the Washington Redskins and the former head coach of the Buffalo Bills from 2001-2003.

He earned his first head coach position with the Bills after a successful stint as defensive coordinator for the Tennessee Titans.

As the Bills' head coach his team was known for overly conservative calls, especially on offense. Williams was 17-31 as the Bills coach, and was fired after a 6-10 2003 campaign.

With Washington, Williams has utilized an aggressive defensive scheme that ranked 3rd in 2004."


"Overly conservative" on offense. Hmmm.

he only got fired after he refused to sign a one year contract extension.

[MOhillbilly]

Almost all the Bills fans I asked over at billszone.com said he sucks arse.


like theyre any better now?ROFL