If Vermeil comes back, who is a good potential DC?

[FringeNC]

Who are some up-and-coming defensive assistants we could get as our new DC?

[ping2000]

Vermeil can't fire people. Knob had to resign. If DICK stays, they all stay.

[Mr. Laz]

if vermeil comes back we will have exactly the same staff we have now...


unless someone gets a promotion to another team.

[FringeNC]

Vermeil can't fire people. Knob had to resign. If DICK stays, they all stay.

Gun isn't one of Vermeil's friends, unlike Greg Robinson.

[ping2000]

Gun isn't one of Vermeil's friends, unlike Greg Robinson.

I guess that's why Peter Giunta is still alive. Being a friend of DICK is the ultimate job security.

[Lurch]

Who are some up-and-coming defensive assistants we could get as our new DC?

If DV stays, Gun is staying. Write it down. No way he's changin' DCs for what would be his "last" year....again.

[htismaqe]

I agree with Laz and Lurch.

[sedated]

unless someone gets a promotion to another team.



not likely. :(

[King_Chief_Fan]

I agree with Laz and Lurch.

I agree as well. However, if Gun stays, he should have complete say as to who is staff is or isn't. He has some real slugs working with him.

[Mr. Laz]

I agree as well. However, if Gun stays, he should have complete say as to who is staff is or isn't. He has some real slugs working with him.
all those slugs are Vermeil's friends


which is why we kept them when Gun joined as DC.



Gun and Carl will have to fight tooth and nail to make changes ... and if they start pressing vermeil he will just leave or threaten to leave.

[ping2000]

I agree as well. However, if Gun stays, he should have complete say as to who is staff is or isn't. He has some real slugs working with him.

Giunta stays and tries to continue his string of worst secondaries in the league. If that guy survived this long he will NEVER be fired.

[htismaqe]

all those slugs are Vermeil's friends

which is why we kept them when Gun joined as DC.

Gun and Carl will have to fight tooth and nail to make changes ... and if they start pressing vermeil he will just leave or threaten to leave.

Except for Guinta, all of these guys coached here before. I'm pretty sure Gunther knew what he was getting into.

[BigRock]

If DV sticks around, my question would be about the offensive coordinator. We all know there's been talk that Al Saunders isn't high on CP's list of potential replacements for Vermeil. And we know there's talk that Saunders may be on the wish list for teams like Detroit and St. Louis.

If Saunders isn't the head coach of the Chiefs in 2006, it has to be a real possibility that he'd take the job somewhere else. Why stay behind Vermeil for another year if there's no guarantee that he'll get the HC spot with the Chiefs once Dick finally leaves? Especially with all the openings there will be this offseason.

Even if DV stays, we could be looking for a new OC. Let the "Martz" talk commence.

[Swanman]

all those slugs are Vermeil's friends


which is why we kept them when Gun joined as DC.



Gun and Carl will have to fight tooth and nail to make changes ... and if they start pressing vermeil he will just leave or threaten to leave.

Not that it would ever happen, but if DV starts throwing out threats about leaving, just fire his ass. It's one thing to stick up for someone with the potential to succeed, but the defensive coaches have had ample opportunity to get the job done and have falled flat on their faces year after year.

Carl's going to have to learn that if someone is standing in the way of improving the club, you have to run them over. But we all know his loyalty will once again hurt the club.

[PastorMikH]

Gunther.


Serously, if DV stays how long will he stay? Common sense says one year. How many DECENT DC canidates are going to take a position that they will only have a year at?

Perhaps part of the trouble is the assistants under Gunther. No major changes in the way our D plays from GR to Gun and also no changes in D Assistants either. Hmmm.


Lastly, I agree with the sentiments expressed concerning if DV stays then Gun stays. How much of the problem arises from DV getting out-coached and not having his team ready to play? Our local HS Coach has won 7 state championships since the mid 90s. We haven't had any kids drafted by major colleges, no real studs, but year after year he produces a winning team. The winning attitude and preparation for winning games starts at the top with the HC.

[Wa-Z]

How can they built a decent defense if there's a new DC every year?? I think Gun will be alright, he was back in the late 90's...how long was he with the chiefs before that?

[htismaqe]

Gunther took over in 1995 as DC and they were 1st in points allowed that year.

They were 7th the year before, and top 10 four times in the 6 Marty years prior to Gunther arriving.

Gunther did alright in his 1st stint here because he had Marty, Derrick Thomas, Smith, and a host of great players.

[Fish]

I'm convinced DV has done all he can for this team. He has created a dominant offensive team, but has lacked the ability to put together even a mediocre defensive unit in over 4 seasons. I don't think we're gonna get any better with this head coach..........

[morphius]

I don't think any DC will do good here with DV as the coach. The DC will be stuck with guys like Guinta, you know, the guy that has made nobody in the secondary any better at all, and was there to help in the downfall Woods and Wesley.

[Mr. Laz]

Except for Guinta, all of these guys coached here before. I'm pretty sure Gunther knew what he was getting into.
ya... but Gunther is not the sharpest knife in the drawer


his mouth is always writing checks his butt can't cash.

[htismaqe]

ya... but Gunther is not the sharpest knife in the drawer


his mouth is always writing checks his butt can't cash.

I agree. I'm still convinced the reason Gunther came back here was to feed his ego.

[FringeNC]

ya... but Gunther is not the sharpest knife in the drawer


his mouth is always writing checks his butt can't cash.

That's a great description of Gunther.

[FringeNC]

I don't think any DC will do good here with DV as the coach. The DC will be stuck with guys like Guinta, you know, the guy that has made nobody in the secondary any better at all, and was there to help in the downfall Woods and Wesley.

Guinta did quite well at Philly. Guinta isn't the moron calling the plays. Blaming DV and Guinta instead of Gun is absurd.

Do you guys blame our WR coach if the offense has a bad game?

[Mr. Laz]

Guinta did quite well at Philly. Guinta isn't the moron calling the plays. Blaming DV and Guinta instead of Gun is absurd.
then what about DV and Guinta BEFORE Gun?


people look for common denominators


Peterson,Vermeil and the assistant defensive coaches failed before Gun got here and after Gun got here. :shrug:

[morphius]

Guinta did quite well at Philly. Guinta isn't the moron calling the plays. Blaming DV and Guinta instead of Gun is absurd.

Do you guys blame our WR coach if the offense has a bad game?
I'm not just blaming Guinta, he is just a prime example. The guy did nothing good for StL until he was forced to take a co-cordinator. I also have not seen any improvement from any of the secondary during his time here, so obviously he isn't helping anyone out. The same could probably be said of the DL Coach. Hell, the only guy who has improved is Kawika, and that wasn't until Gun took him under his wing and pushed his buttons this offseason.

[kcfanXIII]

we could bring in buddy ryan, and still have the same results as long as vermiel is our head coach. dick is to soft to produce a good defense.
i still say the problem with the defense is the corners giving a cushion on every play. no d lineman in the world can get to the qb fast enough if the wr only has to run a 5 yard pattern. it ****s up the whole sceme. play the corners in press coverage, and see what happens to this defense. of course they would still need to learn to tackle....

[FringeNC]

then what about DV and Guinta BEFORE Gun?


people look for common denominators


Peterson,Vermeil and the assistant defensive coaches failed before Gun got here and after Gun got here. :shrug:

Isn't it obvious that Greg Robinson sucked, too? That was Vermeil's big mistake here: hiring Greg Robinson, and then letting Carl hire Gunther. We went from one moron to another from Robinson to Gun, but Gun is even worse.

I refuse to believe that there is something inherent in a DV-coached high-powered offense that insures that your D will suck. It didn't in Philly, and it didn't in St. Louis. He hired a bad coordinator in Robinson, then Carl hired even a worse coordinator in Gunther.

[kcfanXIII]

Guinta did quite well at Philly. Guinta isn't the moron calling the plays. Blaming DV and Guinta instead of Gun is absurd.

Do you guys blame our WR coach if the offense has a bad game?
some might say that blaming gun is absurd, i didn't see one missed tackle by gunther at all this year. its dicks fault the players are soft.

[htismaqe]

some might say that blaming gun is absurd, i didn't see one missed tackle by gunther at all this year. its dicks fault the players are soft.

:hmmm:

I don't remember seeing Dick miss a tackle either...

[Hammock Parties]

I agree. I'm still convinced the reason Gunther came back here was to feed his ego.

If only his ego fed his brain...

[tk13]

I'm not just blaming Guinta, he is just a prime example. The guy did nothing good for StL until he was forced to take a co-cordinator. I also have not seen any improvement from any of the secondary during his time here, so obviously he isn't helping anyone out. The same could probably be said of the DL Coach. Hell, the only guy who has improved is Kawika, and that wasn't until Gun took him under his wing and pushed his buttons this offseason.
Actually, I wouldn't disagree that he wasn't a great coordinator, but St. Louis was usually among the league leaders in pass defense and INT's under Giunta. He was also the secondary coach with Philly when they had guys like Eric Allen and Andre Waters on that great secondary on those really good early 90's Eagles D's. He actually has a pretty good track record as a secondary coach, at least until he came here and had to work with our safety/CB projects.

And even then, Warfield has gotten a lot better, and Wesley and Woods were playing at a Pro Bowl level until Gun got here....

[Hammock Parties]

Wesley and Woods were playing at a Pro Bowl level until Gun got here....

I disagree.

I think Robinson's scheme hid them.

[Chiefnj]

If Vermeil comes back you have to keep Gun. You don't switch coordinators again. With only one year you can't have a new system with someone elses players.

[tk13]

I disagree.

I think Robinson's scheme hid them.
I'm not sure, you think you can hide a safety? All you gotta do is keep sending guys deep and test them like everybody did last year... that's why they're called a safety, they're the last line of defense, there's nobody there to back them up.

[Hammock Parties]

If Vermeil comes back you have to keep Gun. You don't switch coordinators again. With only one year you can't have a new system with someone elses players.

I agree with that.

[Hammock Parties]

I'm not sure, you think you can hide a safety? All you gotta do is keep sending guys deep and test them like everybody did last year... that's why they're called a safety, they're the last line of defense, there's nobody there to back them up.

We asked our safeties to do more when Gunther got here and they were exposed. That's why we got Knight.

[Johnson&Johnson]

Vermeil will not stay. He is going. Chiefs will lay down and go 8-8.

If you were the defense or any of the players, you know you will be getting a new HC or better coaches next years if DV is not happy with the performance in the last 2 games, would you want to play real hard and win the 2 games just so DV feel promising of improved unit in 2006?

Enough is enough, when I heard DV's press conference adressing the media and he took full responsibility for doing a lousy job coaching but praise his coaches for doing a great job..that's a bunch of baloney. He contradicted himself by saying he did a bad job but the coaches did a fine job. How is that possible. How is that your coaches did such a fine job but does not reflect to you as HC for doing a great job. Dick, you are SOFT with players and coaches and after 5 years, it has trickle down to the way our player play the game..no wonder the league thinks of us as a soft team.

[Chiefnj]

I disagree.

I think Robinson's scheme hid them.

I agree. Robinson's scheme was safety friendly. Both Woods and Wesley looked good. Lots of picks. Have them hang deep and throw some odd zones up in front so the QB tosses a few errant passes into zones that don't exist - wala an INT for Woods.

[FringeNC]

If Vermeil comes back you have to keep Gun. You don't switch coordinators again. With only one year you can't have a new system with someone elses players.

Jim Bates turned around a horrible Packer squad in his first year. I just have zero confidence in Gun. He's had the worst D in the league since his return, and I don't see how it could get any worse under a new coordinator.

[Ralphy Boy]

Write this down and feel free to quote me later. DV is gone. If Carl passes on Saunders, he is gone to St Louis because the folks in St Louie think highly of him and he's proven he knows how to run the same offense they employ and are built for.

Gun will stay regardless of who the head coach is because there is no way that Carl will get rid of him after begging him to come back. The only way that we could possibly lose Gun is if Vince Lombardi rose from the grave, became our head coach and wanted his own DC. In other words, he stays. Carl wants a defense as bad as any of us and he might allow him to make some changes such as Guinta but he stays.

The problem we face is that there aren't many OC's who know our offense, so likely we try to keep our TE coach Jason Verduzco who currently helps Saunders plan our passing game. He's a former QB and has coached our TE & QB's. Young guy (35) and former QB at Illinois.

Our most likely coaching staff for the top 3 spots next year is; Saunders HC, Gun DC & Verduzco OC. It keeps most of our staff in place and Carl has shown in years past that he doesn't like a lot of change in coaching staff. Our offense is old, so unless we trully want to scrap it all and start over (Shields & Roaf retire), we need to stick with it. Green is too old to learn an entirely new offense and I don't care to wait around for a Detroit/Cincy/Cleveland kind of rebuild.

If Saunders is to become our new HC, he needs to patch it up with LJ and Tony G who will have some issues with him. Tony wants to be the focus of our passing game and is most likely very frustrated with how his season has gone. Having his former TE coach call the plays will help ease any reservations he might have. Everyone knows about Al's relationship with LJ and that will take work to mend.

[tk13]

I agree. Robinson's scheme was safety friendly. Both Woods and Wesley looked good. Lots of picks. Have them hang deep and throw some odd zones up in front so the QB tosses a few errant passes into zones that don't exist - wala an INT for Woods.
Yeah, because Gun has misused his talent both years... last year he had a zone team and he put them in man press coverage and blitzed everybody. This year he signed pass rushers like Hall and Bell, a man press CB, and a safety to play up in the box and then plays a bunch of zone with the corners off the ball.

[Hammock Parties]

Yeah, because Gun has misused his talent both years... last year he had a zone team and he put them in man press coverage and blitzed everybody. This year he signed pass rushers like Hall and Bell, a man press CB, and a safety to play up in the box and then plays a bunch of zone with the corners off the ball.

:doh!:

[tk13]

:doh!:
Well I understand what he's doing, he's trying to make us a more complete defensive team... gotta lot a work to do to get there though. The last couple weeks the biggest problem is everybody is now using misdirection and trick plays to take advantage of our aggressiveness. I'm sure SD is gonna throw every counter, reverse, and HB pass in the book at us. We haven't shown we can stop that yet.

[Johnson&Johnson]

Write this down and feel free to quote me later. DV is gone. If Carl passes on Saunders, he is gone to St Louis because the folks in St Louie think highly of him and he's proven he knows how to run the same offense they employ and are built for.
....

If Saunders is to become our new HC, he needs to patch it up with LJ and Tony G who will have some issues with him. Tony wants to be the focus of our passing game and is most likely very frustrated with how his season has gone. Having his former TE coach call the plays will help ease any reservations he might have. Everyone knows about Al's relationship with LJ and that will take work to mend.
Where did you guys hear of Al having a bad relationship with LJ?

I have been wondering where you guys heard that from? Or did somebody made up this rumor?

As fas as I know, I heard from NFL Total Access during the offseason that it was Al Saunders that made a trip out to meet LJ senior and talk to his high school coaches to understand LJ better. Al made the effort after seeing LJ's talents toward the end of 2004 season. For all I know, it has always been DV that had issues with LJ, even from the "take off diapers" time.

It might be that LJ made a comment about Al's play calling as trying too many cutesy play back in week 5-6. And as soon as Priest went down, the offense is very balance and the fact that LJ's been averaging over 30 carries/game, I think Al responded to LJ's comments about trying to stick with basics and strength of the offense - run game to set up the pass. I know a lot of you folks think Roaf was one of the reason the offense has improved but if you really look at it, its LJ's presence that has cost opposing defense to play the run more and not blitz Green. Lj has such a incredible effect on the game. LJ was just as impactful when Roaf was not in a few of the games.

To conclude my point. It's soley DV's fault. He is ultimate the CHIEF head honcho that makes the final call on the direction the team takes. What the coaches end up doing or practicing is a result of what DV ask of them. PERIOD!

[Hammock Parties]

Well I understand what he's doing, he's trying to make us a more complete defensive team... gotta lot a work to do to get there though.

So...you want him back?

[tk13]

Where did you guys hear of Al having a bad relationship with LJ?

I have been wondering where you guys heard that from? Or did somebody made up this rumor?

As fas as I know, I heard from NFL Total Access during the offseason that it was Al Saunders that made a trip out to meet LJ senior and talk to his high school coaches to understand LJ better. Al made the effort after seeing LJ's talents toward the end of 2004 season. For all I know, it has always been DV that had issues with LJ, even from the "take off diapers" time.

It might be that LJ made a comment about Al's play calling as trying too many cutesy play back in week 5-6. And as soon as Priest went down, the offense is very balance and the fact that LJ's been averaging over 30 carries/game, I think Al responded to LJ's comments about trying to stick with basics and strength of the offense - run game to set up the pass. I know a lot of you folks think Roaf was one of the reason the offense has improved but if you really look at it, its LJ's presence that has cost opposing defense to play the run more and not blitz Green. Lj has such a incredible effect on the game. LJ was just as impactful when Roaf was not in a few of the games.

To conclude my point. It's soley DV's fault. He is ultimate the CHIEF head honcho that makes the final call on the direction the team takes. What the coaches end up doing or practicing is a result of what DV ask of them. PERIOD!
It might be a better relationship now, I don't know. LJ has said he doesn't talk to Saunders, at least before this year. He at least talks some to DV and they seem to have a good professional relationship. When LJ broke out last year and people asked why he didn't get to play sooner, Carl's exact words were "Why don't you ask the offensive coordinator". Which Al didn't play LJ much because he wanted him to improve on his pass blocking, which I guess has come to fruition now, but I'm still not sure LJ and Al get along.

[tk13]

So...you want him back?
I didn't say that. I'm not sure yet. We'll see how these final two games to go. I'd lean toward no, especially if DV leaves, but we're facing two really good offenses the next two weeks, we'll see if we can improve on anything. I was okay after the Denver and Dallas games because they had to pull out all the stops, reverses, flea flickers, QB draws, to fool our defense... but the Giants game we missed a lot of tackles and looked a lot more sloppy.

[Johnson&Johnson]

Carl only said ask the offensive coordinator is because CP and Al aren't exactly best of friends. On the opposite side, CP would never call out his long time buddy DV when shit hits the fan.. so he used Al as a scapegoat for the media and a hint to Vermeil that he wants to see LJ get more involved.

Mind you that it was still Al that went out to meet with LJ's coaches in high school and Penn St. Not DV. Unless you tell me that it was DV that ask or sent Al out there to begin with.

[Johnson&Johnson]

I didn't say that. I'm not sure yet. We'll see how these final two games to go. I'd lean toward no, especially if DV leaves, but we're facing two really good offenses the next two weeks, we'll see if we can improve on anything. I was okay after the Denver and Dallas games because they had to pull out all the stops, reverses, flea flickers, QB draws, to fool our defense... but the Giants game we missed a lot of tackles and looked a lot more sloppy.
I agree with your take here 100%. Could not agree better with on how you saw the game with DAL and DEN. But yes, the Giants game made me sick to the stomach, shocking to me. In not that they lost the game despite only 10 points but how they just collapse after playing so well for close to 2 quarters.

[kczoo]

Me, so I could make Hicks wash my car

[shaneo69]

Jim Bates turned around a horrible Packer squad in his first year.

You mean the vaunted GB defense that gave up 48 to Baltimore last night? Yeah, the 2-12 Packers defense has been great under Bates. :rolleyes:

You are an idiot. You've become the most annoying poster on this board with all of your "Gunther sucks" posts and threads. Congrats.

[Hammock Parties]

Jim Bates turned around a horrible Packer squad in his first year. I just have zero confidence in Gun. He's had the worst D in the league since his return, and I don't see how it could get any worse under a new coordinator.

You mean the vaunted GB defense that gave up 48 to Baltimore last night? Yeah, the 2-12 Packers defense has been great under Bates. :rolleyes:


Green Bay is ranked in the top 10 in defense.

It's not a great example because their scoring D is close to ours, but his point is that you CAN turn around a defense in one season. The Bills did it in recent memory.

Gunther's TWO YEARS and we've improved only marginally.

[shaneo69]

Green Bay is ranked in the top 10 in defense.

It's not a great example because their scoring D is close to ours, but his point is that you CAN turn around a defense in one season. The Bills did it in recent memory.

Gunther's TWO YEARS and we've improved only marginally.

Yeah, here's the thing. Last year, we improved one defensive position out of 11, Jared Allen at DE. This year, we've improved 2 more positions, Derrick Johnson at OLB and Pat Surtain at CB. So in Gunther's two years, we've improved a whopping total of 3 defensive positions out of 11 since the GRob era. As bad as our defense was in 2003, it is absolutely criminal that Peterson hasn't been able to upgrade the defensive talent better than that.

[Hammock Parties]

Yeah, here's the thing. Last year, we improved one defensive position out of 11, Jared Allen at DE. This year, we've improved 2 more positions, Derrick Johnson at OLB and Pat Surtain at CB. So in Gunther's two years, we've improved a whopping total of 3 defensive positions out of 11 since the GRob era. As bad as our defense was in 2003, it is absolutely criminal that Peterson hasn't been able to upgrade the defensive talent better than that.

Go look at the Redskins roster and tell me they have more talent than we do.

Gunther blows.

[shaneo69]

For those who want Gunther gone, the only possible scenario is that John Bunting gets the boot from UNC and DV brings him back to replace Cunningham. Peterson might even go along with that.

Bunting was the brains behind the Rams '99 defense. When Martz was promoted to HC in 2000, he fired Bunting and named Guinta D-coordinator. Bunting went to the Saints and New Orleans ended up beating the Rams in the playoffs that year. Then Bunting got the UNC HC job in 2001.

Bunting has sucked as a HC, but he was a hell of a defensive coach.

[Hammock Parties]

You don't think DV retires?

I noticed you didn't vote in the Gunther poll.

[shaneo69]

Go look at the Redskins roster and tell me they have more talent than we do.

Gunther blows.

Okay, I'll let you decide.

Wash Front 4 - Philip Daniels, Cornelius Griffin, Joe Salave'a, Renaldo Wynn. Redskins are better at 3 of 4 positions, with Jared Allen being the one exception.

Wash LB's - Marcus Washington, Lemar Marshall, Lavar Arrington. I would take all three of those guys over our starting LB's. DJ may be better someday than Washington or Arrington, but not yet. Mitchell/Marshall is probably a push.

Wash secondary - Carlos Rogers, Shawn Springs, Sean Taylor, Ryan Clark. Redskins top 3 CB's are former 1st round picks. I'll take Springs over Warfield, Surtain over Rogers, Taylor over Wesley, Knight over Clark.

That's 3 positions out of 11 that I think the Chiefs are better. You disagree?

[milkman]

Yeah, here's the thing. Last year, we improved one defensive position out of 11, Jared Allen at DE. This year, we've improved 2 more positions, Derrick Johnson at OLB and Pat Surtain at CB. So in Gunther's two years, we've improved a whopping total of 3 defensive positions out of 11 since the GRob era. As bad as our defense was in 2003, it is absolutely criminal that Peterson hasn't been able to upgrade the defensive talent better than that.

A good defensive coordinator finds ways of getting the job done without outstanding talent.

Romeo Crennel still had a hard hitting physical defense, even when he lost starters to injury, even using WR Troy Brown in the secondary.

Mike Trgovic did the same in Carolina, even though he lost three quarters of his starting secondary and Kris Jenkins to injury last year.

Gun is a poor talent evaluator who lacks any semblence of adaptibility.

The 90s defense he was in charge of was just the result of a talent laden group of defenders.

Even you couldn't have ****ed that up.

[Hammock Parties]

Okay, I'll let you decide.

Wash Front 4 - Philip Daniels, Cornelius Griffin, Joe Salave'a, Renaldo Wynn. Redskins are better at 3 of 4 positions, with Jared Allen being the one exception.

Wash LB's - Marcus Washington, Lemar Marshall, Lavar Arrington. I would take all three of those guys over our starting LB's. DJ may be better someday than Washington or Arrington, but not yet. Mitchell/Marshall is probably a push.

Wash secondary - Carlos Rogers, Shawn Springs, Sean Taylor, Ryan Clark. Redskins top 3 CB's are former 1st round picks. I'll take Springs over Warfield, Surtain over Rogers, Taylor over Wesley, Knight over Clark.

That's 3 positions out of 11 that I think the Chiefs are better. You disagree?

I think we're comparable in the secondary and on the D-line. They are better at linebacker.

Seriously, they have a rookie corner and who the hell is Ryan Clark?

Phillip Daniels is another Eric Hicks. Renaldo Wynn is about as has-been as they come.

Gunther sucks ass.

[shaneo69]

A good defensive coordinator finds ways of getting the job done without outstanding talent.

Romeo Crennel still had a hard hitting physical defense, even when he lost starters to injury, even using WR Troy Brown in the secondary.

Mike Trgovic did the same in Carolina, even though he lost three quarters of his starting secondary and Kris Jenkins to injury last year.

Gun is a poor talent evaluator who lacks any semblence of adaptibility.

The 90s defense he was in charge of was just the result of a talent laden group of defenders.

Even you couldn't have ****ed that up.


Re: Crennel....I'm not giving any credit to a New England DC when Belichick is calling the shots.

Re: Trgovac...The Panthers finished 7-9 last year. Kudos to Trgovac for a great job.

Re: Chiefs defense in the '90's....how many times did the Chiefs finish #1 in points allowed under Cowher or Adolph?

[milkman]

Re: Crennel....I'm not giving any credit to a New England DC when Belichick is calling the shots.

Re: Trgovac...The Panthers finished 7-9 last year. Kudos to Trgovac for a great job.

Re: Chiefs defense in the '90's....how many times did the Chiefs finish #1 in points allowed under Cowher or Adolph?

If Crenel didn't have anything to do with the defensive performanc in NE, and it was Belichick's doing, then why did NE struggle so much earlier this season?

Yes, the Panthers finished 7-9, but the defense still did it's job.

But I'll bet you think that the Chiefs offense is just as responsible for the team's inabilty to get into the playoffs 4 of the last 5 seasons.

[CoMoChief]

How about Greg Robinson?

[PastorMikH]

Anyone wanting Gun back after today?

[Tribal Warfare]

Anyone wanting Gun back after today?

F*** NO!!!!!!!!!!

one game, doesn't excuse a year of all-world shity defense.

[FringeNC]

Nope. 2nd straight season under Gun where we have wasted the leagues #1 offense.

[jjchieffan]

I cant believe the hard on some of you have to get rid of gun. Yes we have problems on the road, but at home the D has been dynamite. They handed us the Denver win, and this one. GRobs defense could not have stopped LT. Gun's did. and he served up some nice crow for you doubters today. Last week was the exception. Before Gun, it was the rule. For gods sake, our old defense would make Greg Hill look like LJ, and made nobody QB's like Kelly Holcombe look like Joe F**ing Montana

[Hammock Parties]

I cant believe the hard on some of you have to get rid of gun. Yes we have problems on the road, but at home the D has been dynamite. They handed us the Denver win, and this one. GRobs defense could not have stopped LT. Gun's did. and he served up some nice crow for you doubters today. Last week was the exception. Before Gun, it was the rule. For gods sake, our old defense would make Greg Hill look like LJ, and made nobody QB's like Kelly Holcombe look like Joe F**ing Montana

So what is the excuse for Gunther's defense sucking ass? It's ranked no better than Robinson's ever was.

[jjchieffan]

Really? I never saw Grobs defense ranked in the top 10 against the run. That is progress. I am confident that next year the pass offense will be better as well

[Hammock Parties]

Really? I never saw Grobs defense ranked in the top 10 against the run. That is progress.l

If you want to cherry pick stats, I can too. GROB's defense forced more turnovers and was better against the pass.

Overall defensive rankings and points allowed are pretty much the same.

Gunther's worst year was about as bad as GROB's and Gunther's best year (this year) is slightly worse than GROB's.

[jjchieffan]

All I am saying is that Guns defense has improved this year.( despite having a brutal schedule) That is a step in the right direction. You get rid of coaches when their performance is getting worse, not better. The statistics for this season show improvement as the season has progressed. There were so many new starters, that early on, the defense struggled. If Gun stays, there will be more improvement next year. A new DC will have a new system, which will have to be learned, many player wont fit that system. and then what? I guess you will all want him fired too.

[Hammock Parties]

The statistics for this season show improvement as the season has progressed.

Yeah, I liked the improvement against Denver, Dallas and the Giants

[jjchieffan]

Your and idiot ROFL ROFL
not really..I think that is a lame response that gets used a lot around here and I am just making fun of those that use it.

Actually, in response to your post, I think the defense did fine against Denver. The second half adjustments by Gunther made the difference in the game. And as I said earlier, they have some problems on the road. I dont know why, but hopefully, that will improve too.

[Hammock Parties]

I really don't give a shit. The defense sucks. There's more evidence supporting my opinion than yours.

The only time we played good D this year was during that stretch against bad football teams. There are a couple of exceptions (New England and today) but even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

[jjchieffan]

btw... Is there some reason that they always say "your and idiot", instead of "your an idiot". First time I saw it I thought it was a typo, but I have seen it so many times, I figure there must be a reason

[Logical]

I am sure this has been pointed out but unless a coach leaves, DV won't change any of them so Gun will be back.:Lin:

[Chiefs Pantalones]

btw... Is there some reason that they always say "your and idiot", instead of "your an idiot". First time I saw it I thought it was a typo, but I have seen it so many times, I figure there must be a reason

That's why.

[tk13]

I am sure this has been pointed out but unless a coach leaves, DV won't change any of them so Gun will be back.:Lin:
Eh, DV and Al are probably gone. Gun might very well be, but I'm less confident about that. If anybody is staying, Gun is the guy I'd guess.

[Logical]

Man this thread is depressing, the thought of this staff staying makes me ill.

[Chiefs Pantalones]

Eh, DV and Al are probably gone. Gun might very well be, but I'm less confident about that. If anybody is staying, Gun is the guy I'd guess.

So everyone is leaving, but Carl's guys? That means Gun would stay on, Herm will come be the HC, dogs cats sleeping together, massastaria!!! (/Bill Murray)

[htismaqe]

Really? I never saw Grobs defense ranked in the top 10 against the run. That is progress. I am confident that next year the pass offense will be better as well

You've got to be ****ing kidding me.

Gunther's defense is 9th in rushing yards against because they're FOURTH in rushing attempts against.

It's quite simple - teams don't run the ball against us for many yards because they DON'T TRY.

Gunther's defense is TWENTY FIFTH in the stat that counts -- 4.26 yards per rush is PATHETIC.

[milkman]

I cant believe the hard on some of you have to get rid of gun. Yes we have problems on the road, but at home the D has been dynamite. They handed us the Denver win, and this one. GRobs defense could not have stopped LT. Gun's did. and he served up some nice crow for you doubters today. Last week was the exception. Before Gun, it was the rule. For gods sake, our old defense would make Greg Hill look like LJ, and made nobody QB's like Kelly Holcombe look like Joe F**ing Montana

Actually, I think that Spinner's defense actually fared pretty well against LdT overall.

I could be wrong.

Some of the stat gurus might know.

[FringeNC]

I cant believe the hard on some of you have to get rid of gun. Yes we have problems on the road, but at home the D has been dynamite. They handed us the Denver win, and this one. GRobs defense could not have stopped LT. Gun's did. and he served up some nice crow for you doubters today. Last week was the exception. Before Gun, it was the rule. For gods sake, our old defense would make Greg Hill look like LJ, and made nobody QB's like Kelly Holcombe look like Joe F**ing Montana

Gun's overall D rankings for the time he was here was worst in the entire NFL. No other team in the league put up back to back disasters in 04-05 like we did. And you want to keep the guy?

[Alphaman]

Who are some up-and-coming defensive assistants we could get as our new DC?

If Vermeil comes back, Gun will be the defensive coordinator. This defense has improved over last year and is much better than anything Robinson put out there. Some talent can definitely be added, but it is no fluke this team is in the top 10 against the run. Consider this:

Portis
Westbrook
Barber
Julius Jones
Tomlinson (twice)
Lamont Jordan (twice)
Curtis Martin
Dominic Davis
Mike Anderson (twice)
Willis McGahee
Ronnie Brown

All of these RBs have had huge games in their careers. Only 1 of them had over 100 yards against the Chiefs this year. This has been a good run defense this year (except for 2 games). Gun said that we'd stop the run first and then get to the QB. We need to improve the pass rush, but we are well on our way to being a run stuffing defense. Every good running defense has days where the lose the battle. Just look at what we've done to some of the top run defenses:

San Diego #1
Denver #3
New England #7
Dallas #14
NY Giants #15

We've faced one third of the 15 rushes defenses in the last 5 weeks and LJ has gone over 100 yards each game. Every good defense gets beat by good backs some times. Barber may end up with the rushing title when it's all said and done.

BTW, LJ is now ranked #1 amongst AFC backs. Given the defenses he's had to run against, that is amazing.

[Rausch]

If Gun leaves I'd love to see Capers as DC...

[Extra Point]

THIS PIC IS MY RESPONSE TO ANY WHO DON'T WANT GUN!

[milkman]

THIS PIC IS MY RESPONSE TO ANY WHO DON'T WANT GUN!

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=50923&stc=1

Right back at ya!

[Extra Point]

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=50923&stc=1

Right back at ya!
And a happy high-ho **** you to you, too! Have a Gun Pic Do Loop Christmas!