The #1 reason CP should say YES to Al Saunders - (And the main reason he won't)

[B_Ambuehl]

Forget about the fact that he's coordinated the top offense in the nfl the last 4 years. Forget the fact that he's obviously the best candidate available and already on the staff. Forget the fact that whether he stays or goes could decide whether hall of famers on the offensive line stay or go.

The real reason Saunders should be named head coach is right here. The real reason Saunders WON'T be named head coach is also right here as well.

This was from last summer and I bookmarked it for future reference.

Some of you may recall a guy from the coalition by the name of "former db" from training camp last year. He's a media guy and former football player from Pittsburgh who is also a die hard chiefs fan. He covered the Chiefs training camp last year and provided some really good interviews and info. Anyway, he had this to say about a conversation with Frank Ganz last summer:

http://www.chiefscoalition.com/Forums/index.php?showtopic=29295&hl=ganz

Some of you already know I'm up here in Pittsburgh. Frank Gantz Sr. lives here too and we're very familiar with each other because he is, of course the former coach and he knows me from my job as a television reporter.

Now that thats out of the way, I spotted Gantz and his wife in a grocery store, Whole Foods (bunch of healthy stuff).
He was wearing Chiefs shorts, t-shirt and cap, he made me laugh.

Anyway here are some of the things he shared with me based on the conversations he has with Vermeil about three times a week.

NEW COACH:
Gantz believes Herman Edwards will get strong consideration as the next Chiefs head coach, for a couple of reasons. First, he says head coaches wear out their welcome very fast, even if they're winners. Most importantly, he says the Chiefs front office is enamored with Edwards. Al Saunders will be considered too HOWEVER... HOWEVER, Saunders and Carl Peterson are the two primary parities in regards to the political in-fighting within the organziation. Gantz says the Saunders doesn't back down to Peterson, gets in his face and will tell him his ideas are wrong. They don't share the same philosophy in regards to player evaluations either. I got the strong impression, and Gantz feels this too, that Saunders would be the person to knock Peterson's ego sideways. So Gantz wouldn't be surpirsed if Saunders is passed over as Vermeil's successor.

LARRY JOHNSON:
He says the Chiefs are very sorry Derrick Blaylock is gone. They say that Larry Johnson can't do nearly as many things as Blaylock. They must reconfigure a lot of packages minimize Johnson's short-comings. Gantz says Johson can run, but there's a lot more to the game than just running the rock.

BOOMER GRIGSBY:
May be a starter. Gantz and I had fun talking about the MLB position, as does everyone else. Vermeil told him that Boomer is awesome and that Vermeil isn't letting on to how well this guy REALLY is to the media. Apparently, Boomer is ALWAYS, ALWAYS in position to make the tackle and his technique is flawless. Here's the funny part of our conversation, Gantz asked me why did Grigsby last until the 5th round. I'm like, DUHHHHH!!! He laughed like hell. Gantz and I both think the battle at MLB is between Boomer and Scanlon. He really likes Kawitka Mitchell but it doesn't seem like he's the answer. Everybody is caught up with Boomer's mentality and core toughness to play the position. I informed Gantz of Boomer's gymnastics background and he was even further impressed with the kid.

KENDRELL BELL:
He's NOT healthy from what Vermeil shared with Gantz. Now I thought Bell came back to practice after straining his groin. Perhaps Vermeil is keeping his health undercover but Gantz' voice was noticably grim when talking about Bell's health.
I just hope he is 100 percent by training camp.

GANTZ:
We plan on bumping into each other at training camp because Vermeil asked him to address the team and Gantz is excited to do so. He and I both believe the Chiefs were brilliant in drafting the punter in the third round. Now, while we talked for about 20 minutes, his wife was smoothly filling the cart. She's a wonderful lady, very understanding of two football nuts talking Chiefs football at the deli counter.

[RealSNR]

Nobody messes with the King. Nobody.

[FringeNC]

Interesting....good scoop...

Carl wants another "yes man" obviously.

[Tribal Warfare]

In SI this month Peter King writes

Al Saunders is Dick Vermeil's hand-picked successor;why hasn't Carl Peterson embraced him?

from that statement it looks like Al won't be HC in KC.

[FringeNC]

Additionally, this is consistent with what I (and B_Ambuehl, I think) believe: that the DV/AS duo, controlling the Chiefs' offense, is the only part of the organization that isn't dysfunctional. It's the part that Carl can't **** up. I'd love it if Clark Hunt did a end-around Peterson and hired Saunders.

I woudn't be a bit surprised that the reason Gun isn't in the booth is that he and Saunders hate one another. GC is Carl's boy.

[Mr. Laz]

reason Gun isn't in the booth is that he and Saunders hate one another. GC is Carl's boy.
i hadn't thought about that ... interesting



i don't want our next coach to be a Carl pet .... another positive for giving Saunders a chance imo.

[Wile_E_Coyote]

so Peterson doesn't like Saunders for standing up to him. But his pride & joy, LJ, has just the same personality

[jspchief]

So we want Al Saunders because him and Carl disagree on everything?

So Al won't be able to accomplish anything because he's up against a GM that isn't on the same page? Brilliant.

You can hate on CP all you want, but at some point you might as well accept the fact that he's the GM. Wanting a coach that will do nothing but butt heads hardly seems like a good idea. We need a coach that Carl will play along with. A guy that will get the things he wants. Prolonging infighting is not going to accomplish anything.

[Mr. Laz]

So we want Al Saunders because him and Carl disagree on everything?

well accept the fact that he's the GM
no but i want someone who can stand up and tell Carl "no" occasionally though.


i don't have to accept jack ... carl is a big fat @##hole.

[B_Ambuehl]

I think it's the fact that Saunders is the only coach who would stand up and compete for what he thinks is right. Look at Detroit. Maybe if Mariuchi had a little bit bigger balls and stood up and told Millen that there's no way in hell they need to draft another wide reciever and that ther's no way they could pass up Derrick Johnson maybe Millen would've thought a little bit before throwing away another pick on a WR. But Mooch just smiled for the cameras and went along with it.

CP has had like one good draft pick in the last 5 or 6 years and Derrick Johnson doesn't really count. How many defensive tackles has he drafted?

Look at the defensive coordinators he's brought in. I wonder who an Al Saunders would've recommended as defensive coordinator. Something tells me it wouldn't have been gun.

[SLAG]

Wow Larry Johnson cant do somethings that blaylock can?


I dont see that now

[jspchief]

Saunders can stand up to him as much as he wants. That doesn't mean Peterson is going to cave to it.

If you really want to be rid of Peterson, you would want a new coach. Saunders is just going to give us more of what we've had the last 5 years... barely good enough. He'll ensure this team stays competitive enough that Peterson keeps his job.

If you want status quo, give Saunders the job.
If you want more 7-9,8-8,9-7 seasons, give Saunders the job.
If you want change, don't give Saunders the job.

[stevieray]

.


i don't have to accept jack ... carl is a big fat @##hole.

so, I guess the right word would be tolerate...

it's still funny though.

we aren't part of any equation.

[Mr. Laz]

so, I guess the right word would be tolerate...

it's still funny though.

we aren't part of any equation.
yep ...

so my dislike and your support for Carl both don't mean jack.

[the Talking Can]

"He says the Chiefs are very sorry Derrick Blaylock is gone. They say that Larry Johnson can't do nearly as many things as Blaylock. They must reconfigure a lot of packages minimize Johnson's short-comings. Gantz says Johson can run, but there's a lot more to the game than just running the rock."


clearly Gantz is on the ball....we should listen to him...

[stevieray]

yep ...

so my dislike and your support for Carl both don't mean jack.

I've never said I supported Carl...'cause like you said, it doesn't mean jack.

but it is nice to see you realize that all of the bashing doesn't matter either.

[Coogs]

LJ is making a strong case for being the best damn offensive player in the whole NFL.

If Holmes is still healthy, LJ hardly sees the field.

Just say no to AS.

[B_Ambuehl]

If you really want to be rid of Peterson, you would want a new coach. Saunders is just going to give us more of what we've had the last 5 years... barely good enough. He'll ensure this team stays competitive enough that Peterson keeps his job.

If you want status quo, give Saunders the job.
If you want more 7-9,8-8,9-7 seasons, give Saunders the job.
If you want change, don't give Saunders the job.


Are you saying that the way to get rid of Peterson is to bring in coaches who will do *worse* then Saunders would so that CP will eventually be run off?

[FringeNC]

Wow Larry Johnson cant do somethings that blaylock can?


I dont see that now

I don't see that our O is any better now that we don't have a running back who is a consistent threat in the passing game. LJ is a stud, no doubt. He still has some work to do in the passing game, though. But we did set an NFL record last year for 1st downs. Yeah, I know, Roaf was out this....but regardless, our O is no better now. Holmes and Blaylock are no slouches.

[the Talking Can]

LJ is making a strong case for being the best damn offensive player in the whole NFL.

If Holmes is still healthy, LJ hardly sees the field.

Just say no to AS.

right..AS isn't giving LJ the ball 25 times a game....he didn't call LJ's # against Denver in the fourth...etc....he obviously doesn't recognize his talent

[B_Ambuehl]

BTW, those comments about them changing the packages last summer with LJ were due to his blocking. Funny that many feel his blocking ended up costing this team a win and a playoff spot.

[the Talking Can]

BTW, those comments about them changing the packages last summer with LJ were due to his blocking. Funny that many feel his blocking ended up costing this team a win and a playoff spot.

no, it would be funny if people were dense enough to actually believe that....

[FringeNC]

So we want Al Saunders because him and Carl disagree on everything?



All other things equal, that indeed is a positive. The last thing I want is another situation like with Gun where Carl was calling blitz packages from the press box.

[Frankie]

I have always tried to have an even view of CP. Haven't crapped all over him like some of you have, and haven't approved of some of his stuff. However if an obvious choice like Saunders is pushed aside in favor of Edwards or someone like that, Peterson will be deep in this Chief fan's crapper. If Mr Peterson's ego can't accept a HC with balls, then maybe he needs to go himself.

[FringeNC]

no, it would be funny if people were dense enough to actually believe that....

Is our O better with Holmes/Blaylock or Johnson? The answer is not obvious to me.

[Mr. Laz]

grbac
green
johnson

[Coogs]

right..AS isn't giving LJ the ball 25 times a game....he didn't call LJ's # against Denver in the fourth...etc....he obviously doesn't recognize his talent


If Holmes is still healthy, Holmes is the starter and LJ comes off the bench. And this is nothing against Holmes. Best offensive player in the NFL being a backup is just wrong.

And right now, we still have LJ going to the bench on 3rd downs. :shake:

The threat of LJ on 3rd and 6 or so still has to be honored. Play action with LJ and use him as a receiver instead of just using him as a blocker in the drop back scheme.

[the Talking Can]

Is our O better with Holmes/Blaylock or Johnson? The answer is not obvious to me.

I had no idea that was the question.

[FringeNC]

I had no idea that was the question.

Well, what's your opinion?

[Coogs]

BTW, those comments about them changing the packages last summer with LJ were due to his blocking. Funny that many feel his blocking ended up costing this team a win and a playoff spot.

It's also funny that some feel it was AS's play calling on that same 1st and goal series that may end up costing this team a win and a playoff spot. :hmmm:

[Mr. Laz]

If Holmes is still healthy, Holmes is the starter and LJ comes off the bench. And this is nothing against Holmes. Best offensive player in the NFL being a backup is just wrong.

And right now, we still have LJ going to the bench on 3rd downs. :shake:

The threat of LJ on 3rd and 6 or so still has to be honored. Play action with LJ and use him as a receiver instead of just using him as a blocker in the drop back scheme.
you gotta figure that IF priest comes back that he will be our 3rd down/goal line back.

he's better blocking and catching .... and he seems to be able to sneak through into the endzone better too.


i imagine that larry johnson gets 2/3 of the total carries though

[Coogs]

you gotta figure that IF priest comes back that he will be our 3rd down/goal line back.

he's better blocking and catching .... and he seems to be able to sneak through into the endzone better too.


i imagine that larry johnson gets 2/3 of the total carries though

I would agree that you gotta figure that.

Point being however that if Holmes doesn't get hurt, the best offensive player in the NFL is still a backup.

[Mr. Laz]

I would agree that you gotta figure that.

Point being however that if Holmes doesn't get hurt, the best offensive player in the NFL is still a backup.
that's what has to happens when you have the 2 best RB's in the league on the same team. :D

[the Talking Can]

Well, what's your opinion?

the answer is: it doesn't matter

AS has created a #1 ranked O with both, and if we had a defense worth a shit either could take us deep into the playoffs....but my comment was about people being stupid enough to think that one play in the Dallas game is the reason we're not in the playoffs...

[B_Ambuehl]

It's also funny that some feel it was AS's play calling on that same 1st and goal series that may end up costing this team a win and a playoff spot.

Well, if you're gonna use the facts as a basis to argue, over the last 4 years there are 31 other teams who evidently had worse play calling then that. :) That's using both the offensive and redzone stats as reference points and you know what they say about the stats....they don't lie.

[MahiMike]

Damn it Carl!!!!! :cuss:

[Redcoats58]

If there is any coach that earned the head coach position it's Saunders. Until I read this I didn't want Saunders as the next HC but now I've changed my mind. You could say that Saunders has had more production out of this offense with some of the mediocre players we have then anyone else in the NFL. I think we really need to push the firecarlpeterson.com webpage. Peterson is the thorn in the Chiefs side.

[FringeNC]

I read a rumor somewhere that Clark Hunt is going to have a lot of say about the next coach. Perhaps he likes Al. Perhaps CP would quit if Al was hired. Dreaming, I know...

[Redcoats58]

I read a rumor somewhere that Clark Hunt is going to have a lot of say about the next coach. Perhaps he likes Al. Perhaps CP would quit if Al was hired. Dreaming, I know...

I would love this scenario.

[Frankie]

If there is any coach that earned the head coach position it's Saunders. Until I read this I didn't want Saunders as the next HC but now I've changed my mind. You could say that Saunders has had more production out of this offense with some of the mediocre players we have then anyone else in the NFL. I think we really need to push the firecarlpeterson.com webpage. Peterson is the thorn in the Chiefs side.It's funny. I'm also fast changing my position on Peterson after reading this. I've wanted AS as HC all along. Now I may have to join you in the fire-Peterson movement too.

[Frankie]

I would love this scenario.Me too. Hope Clark is on Saunders' side.

[Brock]

I think Peterson will end up hiring Saunders. If Saunders wants to stay, that is. The Rams have him on speed dial.

[stevieray]

Clark has to be more involved if this organization is ever going to get over the hump.

High money contracts ultimately glaze over the desire to win for some players. They get paid very well when they lose, while we pay to watch it.

I hope Clark is on the sideline of every game next season, even if briefly.

[Mr. Laz]

The Rams have him on speed dial.
ya think so?

i always got the impression that the lambs didn't really think Saunders was HC material. :shrug:

[Johnson&Johnson]

If you want status quo, give Saunders the job.
If you want more 7-9,8-8,9-7 seasons, give Saunders the job.
If you want change, don't give Saunders the job.


I agree.

You are always the one thats got your head screwed on straight. Some of the things I read from Chiefs fan here are shocking. Many does not have the ability to see things beyond the 1st level of our problems.

[cdcox]

that's what has to happens when you have the 2 best RB's in the league on the same team. :D

Priest, even when healthy at the beginning of the season, is no longer an elite back in this league. The fact that he was starting in front of LJ says loads about DV/AS ability to evaluate talent.

[BigMeatballDave]

Funny that many feel his blocking ended up costing this team a win and a playoff spot.You must be talking about the Dallas game. You can place the blame squarely on the _efense for that loss. If your D cannot hold an opponent in crunchtime, you do not deserve a play-off berth. All we had to do was stop them on that drive, and NOONE would've talking about the missed LJ block. Blaming LJ for missing the play-offs, while he's rushed 1500+ yards, is just plain ****ing stoopid...

[B_Ambuehl]

Well of course you could blame the defense yet at the same time if Priest or Richardson were in the game there's no way the Chiefs give up a sack and 80 yard fumble to a Scott Fujita and lose the football game. It's just funny that this was brought up by talked about during the offseason and came to fruition vs Dallas. The same thing also happened vs Buffalo but nobody talks about it because themedia didn't pick up on it....but I did. :) It's been so bad that the Chiefs have to take LJ out on anything except for play action passing.

[tk13]

Yeah, no surprise there. Carl has even said things in the media before to kinda insinuate him and Al don't get along. I have zero faith Al will even be considered.

And as much as people wanna complain about it, he was right about LJ's blocking all along. We had an all world RB and a great 3rd down type back, we had the luxury of trying to motivate LJ to learn how to block before putting him in. I don't think Al hates him though, heck, right now he's using LJ at a record pace... Al has proved a lot to me by doing that, he's not let his ego get in the way one bit, and he's using our best weapon to win us ballgames... we never ran Priest this hard.

That said, Al even took the time to go out to Penn State this offseason to talk to LJ's dad and LJ and try to straight things out. He's made the effort, a lot of coaches would not do that, and they don't have to like each other, just co-exist.

And you'd be real hard pressed to convince me there's anyone in the entire freaking universe that is more sick of watching our defense ruin everything our offense has accomplished...

I'm not sure Al is my #1 pick for a head coach, but he's definitely in the top 5, and it's going to piss me off to no end if Carl doesn't even consider him. Everybody goes on about this coordinator, and that coordinator, when we've got maybe the best coordinator in the entire league on our OWN TEAM, a guy who has been a part of some incredibly successful offenses and has a great resume. I think the guy deserves a shot, somewhere. If not here, I hope he gets it, and does well.

[htismaqe]

CP has had like one good draft pick in the last 5 or 6 years and Derrick Johnson doesn't really count. How many defensive tackles has he drafted?

ROFL

That's the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard. DICK VERMEIL was the guy that wanted Ryan Sims. He spent 3 or 4 days in NC talking to his old buddy John Bunting.

When draft picks work, Dick Vermeil drafted them. When they suck, it must have been Peterson.

Fact is, Peterson has ALWAYS deferred to his coaches. It's pretty easy to see when you compare Marty's drafts to Gunther's and Vermeil's -- the coaches got the guys they wanted.

[htismaqe]

Well of course you could blame the defense yet at the same time if Priest or Richardson were in the game there's no way the Chiefs give up a sack and 80 yard fumble to a Scott Fujita and lose the football game. It's just funny that this was brought up by talked about during the offseason and came to fruition vs Dallas. The same thing also happened vs Buffalo but nobody talks about it because themedia didn't pick up on it....but I did. :) It's been so bad that the Chiefs have to take LJ out on anything except for play action passing.

Richardson was beaten later in the Dallas game and was beaten again this weekend against SD. The difference is that Trent didn't drop the ball.

To say it NEVER would have happened is pure, unadulterated bullshit.

[Mr. Laz]

Yeah, no surprise there. Carl has even said things in the media before to kinda insinuate him and Al don't get along. I have zero faith Al will even be considered.

And as much as people wanna complain about it, he was right about LJ's blocking all along. We had an all world RB and a great 3rd down type back, we had the luxury of trying to motivate LJ to learn how to block before putting him in. I don't think Al hates him though, heck, right now he's using LJ at a record pace... Al has proved a lot to me by doing that, he's not let his ego get in the way one bit, and he's using our best weapon to win us ballgames... we never ran Priest this hard.

That said, Al even took the time to go out to Penn State this offseason to talk to LJ's dad and LJ and try to straight things out. He's made the effort, a lot of coaches would not do that, and they don't have to like each other, just co-exist.

And you'd be real hard pressed to convince me there's anyone in the entire freaking universe that is more sick of watching our defense ruin everything our offense has accomplished...

I'm not sure Al is my #1 pick for a head coach, but he's definitely in the top 5, and it's going to piss me off to no end if Carl doesn't even consider him. Everybody goes on about this coordinator, and that coordinator, when we've got maybe the best coordinator in the entire league on our OWN TEAM, a guy who has been a part of some incredibly successful offenses and has a great resume. I think the guy deserves a shot, somewhere. If not here, I hope he gets it, and does well.

well said :clap:

[jspchief]

Are you saying that the way to get rid of Peterson is to bring in coaches who will do *worse* then Saunders would so that CP will eventually be run off?No.

I'm saying Saunders will likely give us the same thing we had under the Vermeil era. We'll have a team that's good enough to give us hope every year, and keep enough fans in the stands to keep Peterson's job.

However, going in a different direction gives us a lot better chance at change. A new coach could be terrible, which would hopefully finally get Peterson fired. A new coach be awesome, building a great team, in which case I don't care about Peterson. Or a new coach could build another middle of the road Marty/Vermeil team.

Bringing in a new coach gives this team a lot more opportunity for change, IMO. Part of the risk is negative change, but even that has the potential silver lining of getting CP fired. Worst case scenario is probably mediocrity once again.

Like I said, if you're content with the middle of the road football we've seen for the last 15+ years, then Saunders is your man. But if you're like me, and ready for something different, then we need to look elsewhere. i realize the risk, but even if the next coach is a failure, I have my theory on why that would be better in the long run.

[htismaqe]

ya think so?

i always got the impression that the lambs didn't really think Saunders was HC material. :shrug:

So far he's been linked to KC and Detroit.

We're in elite company.

[htismaqe]

Yeah, no surprise there. Carl has even said things in the media before to kinda insinuate him and Al don't get along. I have zero faith Al will even be considered.

And as much as people wanna complain about it, he was right about LJ's blocking all along. We had an all world RB and a great 3rd down type back, we had the luxury of trying to motivate LJ to learn how to block before putting him in. I don't think Al hates him though, heck, right now he's using LJ at a record pace... Al has proved a lot to me by doing that, he's not let his ego get in the way one bit, and he's using our best weapon to win us ballgames... we never ran Priest this hard.

That said, Al even took the time to go out to Penn State this offseason to talk to LJ's dad and LJ and try to straight things out. He's made the effort, a lot of coaches would not do that, and they don't have to like each other, just co-exist.

And you'd be real hard pressed to convince me there's anyone in the entire freaking universe that is more sick of watching our defense ruin everything our offense has accomplished...

I'm not sure Al is my #1 pick for a head coach, but he's definitely in the top 5, and it's going to piss me off to no end if Carl doesn't even consider him. Everybody goes on about this coordinator, and that coordinator, when we've got maybe the best coordinator in the entire league on our OWN TEAM, a guy who has been a part of some incredibly successful offenses and has a great resume. I think the guy deserves a shot, somewhere. If not here, I hope he gets it, and does well.

How many coordinators have success as head coach of the SAME team they were coordinator of? There's got to be some reason it's so rare.

[htismaqe]

No.

I'm saying Saunders will likely give us the same thing we had under the Vermeil era. We'll have a team that's good enough to give us hope every year, and keep enough fans in the stands to keep Peterson's job.

However, going in a different direction gives us a lot better chance at change. A new coach could be terrible, which would hopefully finally get Peterson fired. A new coach be awesome, building a great team, in which case I don't care about Peterson. Or a new coach could build another middle of the road Marty/Vermeil team.

Bringing in a new coach gives this team a lot more opportunity for change, IMO. Part of the risk is negative change, but even that has the potential silver lining of getting CP fired. Worst case scenario is probably mediocrity once again.

Like I said, if you're content with the middle of the road football we've seen for the last 15+ years, then Saunders is your man. But if you're like me, and ready for something different, then we need to look elsewhere. i realize the risk, but even if the next coach is a failure, I have my theory on why that would be better in the long run.

Good post.

This is what it comes down to for me:

We tried this before. We elevated a successful coordinator to HC and it was a miserable failure.

Al Saunders may be a great coach some day. I'm just tired of the status quo. It's time to do something new, no matter how risky.

[BigMeatballDave]

Well of course you could blame the defense yet at the same time if Priest or Richardson were in the game there's no way the Chiefs give up a sack and 80 yard fumble to a Scott Fujita and lose the football game. It's just funny that this was brought up by talked about during the offseason and came to fruition vs Dallas. The same thing also happened vs Buffalo but nobody talks about it because themedia didn't pick up on it....but I did. :) It's been so bad that the Chiefs have to take LJ out on anything except for play action passing.The dude is gonna end up 1600+ rushing yards. How about bitching about something OTHER than something that produces results on the field. Our D sucks, and is inconsistant. Period. THAT is what is keeping us out of the play-offs. They laid a GIGANTIC ****ing egg in NY. If we had no LJ, we'd be sitting at 4-11...

[tk13]

How many coordinators have success as head coach of the SAME team they were coordinator of? There's got to be some reason it's so rare.
Is it that rare? George Seifert was very successful in San Fran. Mike Sherman made his impression Green Bay pretty much, he's been pretty successful. Bill Callahan's team flamed out, but not before he took them to a Super Bowl, something we could only dream of at this point. Mike Martz isn't my favorite coach, but he's had success. Same thing as Mike Tice, don't like him, but he's had more success than we've had. Even Bill Belichick coached in New England, went away for a couple years, then came back, his ties with the organization as an assistant playing a role there, and he's been pretty successful. I don't think there's really any hard evidence to say taking over a team you were already a coordinator for is a recipe for disaster.

[BigMeatballDave]

Good post.

This is what it comes down to for me:

We tried this before. We elevated a successful coordinator to HC and it was a miserable failure.

Al Saunders may be a great coach some day. I'm just tired of the status quo. It's time to do something new, no matter how risky.Well said...
:clap:

[tk13]

Good post.

This is what it comes down to for me:

We tried this before. We elevated a successful coordinator to HC and it was a miserable failure.

Al Saunders may be a great coach some day. I'm just tired of the status quo. It's time to do something new, no matter how risky.
That's just a defeatist attitude. We did it before and it didn't work, so it can't work again. Thinking with your emotions instead of your brain.

[FringeNC]

How many coordinators have success as head coach of the SAME team they were coordinator of? There's got to be some reason it's so rare.

As I have mentioned before, it rarely happens because coaches are fired, they don't retire...

George Seifert was pretty darn successful...Mike Martz was successful...what's his name in Oakland was successful following Gruden....

I actually bet the hit rate of assistants being promoted and being successful is higher than than fresh starts being successful. Just a guess, though.

[FringeNC]

The dude is gonna end up 1600+ rushing yards. How about bitching about something OTHER than something that produces results on the field. Our D sucks, and is inconsistant. Period. THAT is what is keeping us out of the play-offs. They laid a GIGANTIC ****ing egg in NY. If we had no LJ, we'd be sitting at 4-11...

With Priest/Blaylock/Johnson last year, we were better on offense. Our passing yards are down. We set a record for first downs last year. Think about that -- an NFL record for first downs --pretty amazing -- without LJ being the featured back.

Now to be fair, we'd have to take the games Roaf missed out of the equation. But my point is that LJ doesn't make this offense -- Saunders, Solari, and the OL make this offense go.

[BigMeatballDave]

With Priest/Blaylock/Johnson last year, we were better on offense. Our passing yards are down. We set a record for first downs last year. Think about that -- an NFL record for first downs --pretty amazing -- without LJ being the featured back.

Now to be fair, we'd have to take the games Roaf missed out of the equation. But my point is that LJ doesn't make this offense -- Saunders, Solari, and the OL make this offense go.I still do not think a healthy Priest rushes for 1600 yards this season even if he's carrying the load. Just look at the YPC of each back...

[htismaqe]

That's just a defeatist attitude. We did it before and it didn't work, so it can't work again. Thinking with your emotions instead of your brain.

No, it's not a defeatist attitude at all. Just because it didn't work before doesn't mean it can't work now.

Get this straight - I DON'T REALLY CARE ABOUT RESULTS.

I don't want to TRY anything we've TRIED before.

I don't want to elevate a coordinator, and I don't want to hire somebody else's Super Bowl coach.

I want to START FRESH. Clean slate.

[tk13]

No, it's not a defeatist attitude at all. Just because it didn't work before doesn't mean it can't work now.

Get this straight - I DON'T REALLY CARE ABOUT RESULTS.

I don't want to TRY anything we've TRIED before.

I don't want to elevate a coordinator, and I don't want to hire somebody else's Super Bowl coach.

I want to START FRESH. Clean slate.
That's a great attitude to have. We haven't tried this before... looking through the history books I don't see one season that Al Saunders was the head coach of the Kansas City Chiefs.

[htismaqe]

That's a great attitude to have. We haven't tried this before... looking through the history books I don't see one season that Al Saunders was the head coach of the Kansas City Chiefs.

Twist the words however you want.

Hiring Al Saunders to be HC says one thing to me:

This team thinks the last 5 years were a SUCCESS and they want to try and continue it.

THAT is a great attitude to have, especially if you don't care about every winning a playoff game.

[tk13]

Twist the words however you want.

Hiring Al Saunders to be HC says one thing to me:

This team thinks the last 5 years were a SUCCESS and they want to try and continue it.

THAT is a great attitude to have, especially if you don't care about every winning a playoff game.
I don't think that's true at all. You're just being emotional again. You think Al would call the last 5 years a total success? You really think so? And you think Al would just carry on dong the same things DV did? I don't think so at all. Al's coached under Coryell, Marty, and DV... that's about as wide a range as you can get. I consider Al a unique individual, independent of all of those different coaches. And he's been successful with all of them.

With any team, Chiefs or otherwise, hiring Al means Al was a success, and he was. That's like saying you don't wanna hire Ron Rivera because his team's offense sucked and kept them from being successful.

[Mr. Laz]

I still do not think a healthy Priest rushes for 1600 yards this season even if he's carrying the load. Just look at the YPC of each back...
but to be fair almost ALL of priest carries were without Willie roaf.


Larry became starter and was more suited to run inside which helped him have success without roaf AND THEN roaf came back which allowed him to start running outside too.


not a fair comparison really

[FringeNC]

but to be fair almost ALL of priest carries were without Willie roaf.


Larry became starter and was more suited to run inside which helped him have success without roaf AND THEN roaf came back which allowed him to start running outside too.


not a fair comparison really

I think he's probably right about LJ having a higher YPC than Priest would have. That doesn't tell the whole story if yards per passsing attempt are down because Larry can't block as well as Priest, though.

Even with Roaf at full strength, our O was no better this year than last year.

I'm not bashing Larry at all. Saunders molds the offense around the strength of his players. Larry is a better runner, and Priest is a better blocker/receiver.

[jspchief]

How many coordinators have success as head coach of the SAME team they were coordinator of? There's got to be some reason it's so rare.How many coordinators have become head coach of the same team and improved that team? None that I can think of. A few may have been able to keep the boat afloat for a few more years, but I can't think of any that actually made the team better. Guys like Sherman and Callahan, Al Groh, etc. may have been able to drag out what the team already had, but they didn't make the team any better.

It's tempting to bring Saunders in to try and keep this offense in tact, but IMO the coach won't be the factor. Age will.

This offense is loaded with guys that are either fading or going to retire in the next year or two. We aren't going to be able to sign Saunders to just a two year contract. So in 2007 when half our O-line has retired, Gonzo has slowed enough to be rendered ineffective (if that hasn't happened already), and Green has lost his touch. We'll still have Saunders trying to rebuild something that's foundation has crumbled.

Saunders will make us all go down with the ship, while a new guy will be building a new ship.

[Coogs]

Priest, even when healthy at the beginning of the season, is no longer an elite back in this league. The fact that he was starting in front of LJ says loads about DV/AS ability to evaluate talent.

AS was the one who convinced the War Room that we needed to draft Kris Wilson. One can only imagine where our team would be without that 2nd round draft steal.

[Hammock Parties]

Saunders is overrated.

Our offense won't drop off without him as long as we keep the key players.

[jjchieffan]

Lets look at the next 5 years. Most likey the offense will remain intact that long, with the exception of Shields. In those 2 years, we are still legitimate contenders if AS is made head coach. After that, depending on draft choices and free agent moves, we more than likely move into rebuilding. If AS is not retained, a new system comes into play, and those 2 years go down the tube. Without AS, I say our record is no better than 6-10 next year. Is that what you really want? maybe you do. We might get a couple of top 5 draft picks in the next five years and rebuild with them. It worked 17 years ago when Carl and Marty came to town, but we still fell short in the end. We also did not have a top offense the year before. AS is the only choice that makes sense. Hopefully, CP will be showed the door by Clark. Side note, Are there any legitimate GM candidates out there to replace the king? Would Clark take it over? And would he be good at it if he did? I dont know much about him.

[tk13]

Saunders is overrated.

Our offense won't drop off without him as long as we keep the key players.
Overrated? How so?

[jjchieffan]

If Saunders is so overrated, then lets just bring back Jimmy Raye. Thats what I thought. Saunders is a difference maker. His offense is very explosive. I wonder what would have happened had Marty given him the chance instead of Raye when he was here. I bet we would have had a couple of more playoff wins

[Mr. Laz]

If Saunders is so overrated, then lets just bring back Jimmy Raye. Thats what I thought. Saunders is a difference maker. His offense is very explosive. I wonder what would have happened had Marty given him the chance instead of Raye when he was here. I bet we would have had a couple of more playoff wins
marty had the best oline in the league for years and we still sucked on offense.

back then we had the philosophy that we didn't need a good QB or RB ... just defense.


now we have a great offense with vermeil but they keep saying "we only need a top 20 defense"



coaches make a huge difference ... the question is can Saunders keep making the difference without Vermeil with him?

[tk13]

I don't think he's overrated. He's been a successful coach everywhere he's ever been.

Just look at our offense and what it was built out of. We took a veteran QB who'd been a starter just once a few years back for 15 games that was coming off a serious knee injury. We took a veteran RB who'd been a starter just once and wasn't highly thought of. We got a steal for a LT in Roaf that everybody thought was washed up. We have a pro-bowl left guard that was a converted fullback. We took Olin Kreutz' backup center in Chicago, and turned him into one of the best centers in football. We have a converted guard at RT. We took a washed up #1 pick that had been dumped by 4 or 5 teams and turned him into a 1000 yard reciever. We have a 4th round pick in his 2nd year at the other receiver. We took a converted RB and turned him into a decent #3 WR and one of the best return men in the game.

I don't think people even appreciate how amazing it is that we built this offense, especially in such an unconventional way. For Al to help turn these guys into maybe the best offense of the last 5 years is really quite amazing. The only team that can compete with us is the Colts, and they have #1 picks all over the field. We actually did it through player evaluation and development. I think it's pretty impressive.

[Hammock Parties]

He's overrated. An injury to Roaf made his offense look pedestrian.

[FringeNC]

He's overrated. An injury to Roaf made his offense look pedestrian.

Jordan Black was terrible, far below average, as much below average as Roaf is above average.

[Hammock Parties]

Jordan Black was terrible, far below average, as much below average as Roaf is above average.

Yep, so let's continue to run our offense as if Roaf was in there. :rolleyes:

Saunders is a good OC, but not HC material.

[tk13]

Nothing like trying to void a successful 30 year coaching career as overrated over about 4-5 games in one season with a LT who'd never played there before. Great work.

[Hammock Parties]

Nothing like trying to void a successful 30 year coaching career as overrated over about 4-5 games in one season with a LT who'd never played there before. Great work.

I didn't say he wasn't a good OC. He is. I hope he stays.

He's not HC material. That much is clear from his gross mishandling of Larry Johnson.

[keg in kc]

It's a moot point, Peterson won't hire Saunders, there's a grudge of some kind there. Which means this is probably the last year of the offense as we know it. Al will get a job somewhere else as a HC, whether it's college or pro.

[FringeNC]

Yep, so let's continue to run our offense as if Roaf was in there. :rolleyes:

Saunders is a good OC, but not HC material.

Huh? We didn't. We ran a lot more shorter route pass patterns, and we still were pretty good. I didn't see the Buffalo game (only complete Chiefs game I have missed in the Vermeil era), but evidently Green did his best impression of 2005 Favre that game. Blame Green's poor throws and decisions on Saunders if you want.

[tk13]

I didn't say he wasn't a good OC. He is. I hope he stays.

He's not HC material. That much is clear from his gross mishandling of Larry Johnson.
I think he's been proven right about Larry Johnson, he struggles at blocking. I would agree he hasn't done a good job at handling him, but "gross" is a bit overdramatic, and he's actually made an effort to rectify the situation, as opposed to a lot of coaches that would be total assholes about it and never do anything to admit their mistake. I think how he's handled Larry Johnson is exactly why I've come around at him being a head coach someday.

[Hammock Parties]

Huh? We didn't. We ran a lot more shorter route pass patterns, and we still were pretty good. I didn't see the Buffalo game (only complete Chiefs game I have missed in the Vermeil era), but evidently Green did his best impression of 2005 Favre that game. Blame Green's poor throws and decisions on Saunders if you want.

Dude, we were pedestrian against Oakland, Denver, Philly, Washington, San Diego, New York....

[FringeNC]

Dude, we were pedestrian against Oakland, Denver, Philly, Washington, San Diego, New York....

Even with Roaf out, and Black in, we were still in the top 10 in offense...top 6 I think...hardly pedestrian...if that's pedestrian, what is our D?

[Hammock Parties]

Even with Roaf out, and Black in, we were still in the top 10 in offense...top 6 I think...hardly pedestrian...if that's pedestrian, what is our D?

We were top 10 in offense if you toss in some of the better games....anyway, who cares?

Saunders won't be the head coach and we'll be a better team because of it.

I can think of a lot better paths for this team to take than hiring another 60-year old head coach.

We need someone young and hungry.

[Hammock Parties]

Besides, he's English. You know he'd immediately cut Lawrence Tynes. :cuss:

[jjchieffan]

I didn't say he wasn't a good OC. He is. I hope he stays.

He's not HC material. That much is clear from his gross mishandling of Larry Johnson.

Was that AS not using LJ, or would that fall on DV? And besides, as we have seen, his blocking still needs improvement. That probably was the biggest factor in not using him as much. Hardly reason to say AS is not HC material imo. Frankly, that is about as good of a reason to not make him HC as any I have seen here, and it doesnt hold water. I dont guess it matters, since, apparently, you and CP seem to be on the same page, It would appear that you will get your wish, and someone else, unfortunately, will get the job.

[stevieray]

Larry Johnson doesn't make or break Al Saunders.

[jspchief]

I guess my question is, what exactly has Saunders done to make anyone think he can fix this team? What aspect of coaching is better than Vermeil at?

[jjchieffan]

I guess my question is, what exactly has Saunders done to make anyone think he can fix this team? What aspect of coaching is better than Vermeil at?

WHat has Saunders done to make anyone think he cant fix this team is my question. We dont know what he would be better than Vermeil at until we guve him the chance.

[Hammock Parties]

We should stop debating this nonsense. Saunders isn't our new HC.

[tk13]

I guess my question is, what exactly has Saunders done to make anyone think he can fix this team? What aspect of coaching is better than Vermeil at?
We probably aren't going to hire a coach that's better than Vermeil. I think you're going to be able to say this with anybody we hire.

[jspchief]

We should stop debating this nonsense. Saunders isn't our new HC.Fine by me.

I can live with him getting the job, but I would much rather get the rebuilding started now rather than in two years when it's critical.

But I agree that he'll not get the job. Then all the Saunder-baters can start their boo-hoo campaign for the next 9 months.

[jspchief]

We probably aren't going to hire a coach that's better than Vermeil. I think you're going to be able to say this with anybody we hire.Better than a losing record and only one (losing) play-off appearance in 5 years? It's not like that's a lofty goal.

[Hammock Parties]

We probably aren't going to hire a coach that's better than Vermeil.

Bullshit. If we can't hire someone that is capable of making the playoffs more than once in five ****ing years, blow up Arrowhead stadium.

[Hammock Parties]

Then all the Saunder-baters can start their boo-hoo campaign for the next 9 months.

:shake:

I can see the threads now if our offense has a bad game.

"WE SHOULD HAVE KEPT AL"

[tk13]

I'm not advocating him getting the job, I think he should be considered though. I think he deserves another shot somewhere. If Gregg Williams deserves another shot, Al Saunders sure as hell deserves another shot.

But I don't think we'd have to go a massive rebuilding job either though. We're young on the defensive side of the football, and Waters/Wiegmann/Black/Welbourn make up a decent 4/5ths of the line. Just need a WR and a LT, we're good to go.

Some of you people are way too eager to trash everything and spend another 3 years starting from scratch. I think you're all nuts. All that will accomplish is wasting LJ's best years and the last few good years of Gonzalez's career.

[Hammock Parties]

We don't have to trash anything. If Al can swallow his pride, he should stay as the offensive coordinator.

[tk13]

Better than a losing record and only one (losing) play-off appearance in 5 years? It's not like that's a lofty goal.
I'm talking accomplishment-wise. You asked what has Al proven he can bring to the table that's better than Vermeil. You'll be able to say that with anyone we hire...

Saunders: Waited 20 years to prove he can be a HC again... great offensive mind, unproven in building an entire team.

Carroll: Had some success at the NFL level, considered too rah-rah by some though for the NFL. Will want complete control of football operations most likely.

Stoops: Won with other people's recruits, not quite as good since they left, doesn't have the NFL experience other college coaches do.

Ron Rivera: Very young in terms of coaching experience, is getting talked up based on one good year with a defense with numerous Dick Jauron draft picks.

Gregg Williams: Team fell apart in first HC gig, players questioned him, may have learned from that (could say the same with Saunders) but apparently has no interest in coming to KC though.

Butch Davis: Totally lost control in Cleveland, quit, made lots of bad decisions, poor draft picks, team didn't trust him at all.

[keg in kc]

We don't have to trash anything. If Al can swallow his pride, he should stay as the offensive coordinator.In all likelihood his choices are a $2 million paycheck somewhere as a head coach, college or pro, or 1.5 million to stay here as OC. Staying wouldn't be swallowing his pride, it would be swallowing Carl's.

[jjchieffan]

We don't have to trash anything. If Al can swallow his pride, he should stay as the offensive coordinator.

Would you? He has ran the nfl's best offense for 5 years, and has turned down HC opportunities in the past for this team. He was already passed over by CP for Gunther when Marty left. As much as I would like to see AS stay with this team, If he gets passed over again, and someone else offers, he would be a fool not to leave, even just to be OC somewhere else. If CP is too arrogant to see what he has in AS, then that is one more reason why Clark needs to get a new GM

[DTLB58]

I'm talking accomplishment-wise. You asked what has Al proven he can bring to the table that's better than Vermeil. You'll be able to say that with anyone we hire...

Saunders: Waited 20 years to prove he can be a HC again... great offensive mind, unproven in building an entire team.

Carroll: Had some success at the NFL level, considered too rah-rah by some though for the NFL. Will want complete control of football operations most likely.

Stoops: Won with other people's recruits, not quite as good since they left, doesn't have the NFL experience other college coaches do.

Ron Rivera: Very young in terms of coaching experience, is getting talked up based on one good year with a defense with numerous Dick Jauron draft picks.

Gregg Williams: Team fell apart in first HC gig, players questioned him, may have learned from that (could say the same with Saunders) but apparently has no interest in coming to KC though.
Butch Davis: Totally lost control in Cleveland, quit, made lots of bad decisions, poor draft picks, team didn't trust him at all.

Curious, where did you hear that Willimams has no interest in coming to KC?

[DTLB58]

Bullshit. If we can't hire someone that is capable of making the playoffs more than once in five ****ing years, blow up Arrowhead stadium.

:clap:

[milkman]

Curious, where did you hear that Willimams has no interest in coming to KC?

You haven't been paying attention, have you?

[jjchieffan]

Curious, where did you hear that Willimams has no interest in coming to KC?

I think that is coming from this board. Somebody, (MOHillbilly I think), says he knows him, and was told by Williams that he is not interested.

[RealSNR]

So leaving Al with the best offensive guard in the game, a (should be) Pro Bowl Center, some good depth at tackle and guard, the best RB in the game, a #1 WR and a QB who still have a couple years left in them, one of the best FBs in the game, one of the best TEs in the game, a young and talented #2 receiver, and more decision-making power = a shitty offense?

Cripes, we gave Al Tony Gonzalez and Will Shields and said "Create an offense that would make Don Coryell cream in his pants." That's exactly what he did. He brought in the players he wanted, kept the players he wanted, and through out the ones who were of no use to him. In less than two seasons, we made the best offense in football.

You don't think he'll be able to make this offense younger and just as good as it was before?

[Logical]

No, it's not a defeatist attitude at all. Just because it didn't work before doesn't mean it can't work now.

Get this straight - I DON'T REALLY CARE ABOUT RESULTS.

I don't want to TRY anything we've TRIED before.

I don't want to elevate a coordinator, and I don't want to hire somebody else's Super Bowl coach.

I want to START FRESH. Clean slate.That statement in bold might be the most irrationale statement I have ever seen you make Parker. So as long as it is a coach who has not coached in the NFL before even if he was a loser at the college level you don't care.

[Logical]

Twist the words however you want.

Hiring Al Saunders to be HC says one thing to me:

This team thinks the last 5 years were a SUCCESS and they want to try and continue it.

THAT is a great attitude to have, especially if you don't care about every winning a playoff game.OK I understand this statement, it is much clearer.

[Logical]

Evidently there are a lot of people who are willing to overlook the fact that our offense is not scoring well now. It seems some people still consider this a top offense just because it generates a lot of yards.

Folks it is all about points and it will be a miracle if we get 400 this year, the two previous years we had 483 and 484 more than 80 points more than we scored this year. Folks that is 5 points a game on average less.:banghead:

[Hammock Parties]

Yep...like I said if Saunders was so effing great he would have made adjustments when Roaf went down.

[Skip Towne]

Yep...like I said if Saunders was so effing great he would have made adjustments when Roaf went down.
Yep, and LJ's ypc went up w/o Roaf and Wellbourn not because of but in spite of AS. His play calling is mystifying.

[FringeNC]

Evidently there are a lot of people who are willing to overlook the fact that our offense is not scoring well now. It seems some people still consider this a top offense just because it generates a lot of yards.

Folks it is all about points and it will be a miracle if we get 400 this year, the two previous years we had 483 and 484 more than 80 points more than we scored this year. Folks that is 5 points a game on average less.:banghead:

Our offense is not as good as last year. We set an NFL record for first down last year. The reason scoring is off from the Greg Robinson years is that Greg's D forced a lot more turnovers than Gunther's do.

[jspchief]

The reason scoring is off from the Greg Robinson years is that Greg's D forced a lot more turnovers than Gunther's do.Wrong. The reason our scoring is off is because our red zone performance has dropped off a cliff. It has nothing to do with turnovers and everything to do with settling for FGs where we used to get TDs.

There are a lot of reasons for our red zone performance dropping off IMO. The biggest is the loss of Priest Holmes. Say whatever you want about LJ being the better back, but no one had an eye for the endzone like Holmes. Another reason is Tony Gonzalez. He just isn't the guy he used to be. His hands aren't as good and he isn't as fast. He's no longer a threat inside the 20 like he once was.

This offense is on the decline. It might be masked by a stud young RB, but it's happening. The age of these guys is catching up. One of these days it's going be the the Gannon led Raiders where the drop-off becomes dramatic. Then we'll be stuck with Al Saunders trying to make Todd Collins do what Green did, Kris Wilson do what Gonzo did, and Jordan Black do what Roaf did. And when it fails the team will be stuck with a bunch of guys Saunders brought in to try and keep the flame burning a few years longer.

[ChiefsFanatic]

I thought his name was Ganz, not Gantz.

[FringeNC]

Wrong. The reason our scoring is off is because our red zone performance has dropped off a cliff. It has nothing to do with turnovers and everything to do with settling for FGs where we used to get TDs.

There are a lot of reasons for our red zone performance dropping off IMO. The biggest is the loss of Priest Holmes. Say whatever you want about LJ being the better back, but no one had an eye for the endzone like Holmes. Another reason is Tony Gonzalez. He just isn't the guy he used to be. His hands aren't as good and he isn't as fast. He's no longer a threat inside the 20 like he once was.

This offense is on the decline. It might be masked by a stud young RB, but it's happening. The age of these guys is catching up. One of these days it's going be the the Gannon led Raiders where the drop-off becomes dramatic. Then we'll be stuck with Al Saunders trying to make Todd Collins do what Green did, Kris Wilson do what Gonzo did, and Jordan Black do what Roaf did. And when it fails the team will be stuck with a bunch of guys Saunders brought in to try and keep the flame burning a few years longer.

Yep. Our Red Zone performance is down. But we got a ridiculous number of turnovers in 2003, which inflated our scoring.

[Hammock Parties]

Yep. Our Red Zone performance is down. But we got a ridiculous number of turnovers in 2003, which inflated our scoring.

Then how do you account for last year?

[htismaqe]

Lets look at the next 5 years. Most likey the offense will remain intact that long, with the exception of Shields. In those 2 years, we are still legitimate contenders if AS is made head coach. After that, depending on draft choices and free agent moves, we more than likely move into rebuilding. If AS is not retained, a new system comes into play, and those 2 years go down the tube. Without AS, I say our record is no better than 6-10 next year. Is that what you really want? maybe you do. We might get a couple of top 5 draft picks in the next five years and rebuild with them. It worked 17 years ago when Carl and Marty came to town, but we still fell short in the end. We also did not have a top offense the year before. AS is the only choice that makes sense. Hopefully, CP will be showed the door by Clark. Side note, Are there any legitimate GM candidates out there to replace the king? Would Clark take it over? And would he be good at it if he did? I dont know much about him.

You act as if keeping Al Saunders is a guarantee.

It's most certainly not.

Al could very well gut the defense and we'd still be rebuilding. Or even more, he COULD gut the offense, effectively killing any argument that he gives continuity to the offense.

It's quite simple - you have no idea what Al Saunders would do as head coach.

[htismaqe]

I thought his name was Ganz, not Gantz.

Yeah, it was discussed last summer, when this guy's talk with Ganz was posted here the first time.

[milkman]

Wrong. The reason our scoring is off is because our red zone performance has dropped off a cliff. It has nothing to do with turnovers and everything to do with settling for FGs where we used to get TDs.

There are a lot of reasons for our red zone performance dropping off IMO. The biggest is the loss of Priest Holmes. Say whatever you want about LJ being the better back, but no one had an eye for the endzone like Holmes. Another reason is Tony Gonzalez. He just isn't the guy he used to be. His hands aren't as good and he isn't as fast. He's no longer a threat inside the 20 like he once was.

This offense is on the decline. It might be masked by a stud young RB, but it's happening. The age of these guys is catching up. One of these days it's going be the the Gannon led Raiders where the drop-off becomes dramatic. Then we'll be stuck with Al Saunders trying to make Todd Collins do what Green did, Kris Wilson do what Gonzo did, and Jordan Black do what Roaf did. And when it fails the team will be stuck with a bunch of guys Saunders brought in to try and keep the flame burning a few years longer.

I'm not on the Al Saunders bandwagon.

But if Al were hired, I'm not overly concerned with the scenario you've described playing out.

There was an article about Al that was posted to the planet about 3-4 months ago, and one thing he made fairly clear is that he learned the mistake of trying to extend the life of an aging team, and trying to continue doing the things that had been working before with less talented players.

I, of course, am paraphrasing.

He said that was his biggest mistake in his first opportunity as a HC.

[htismaqe]

I don't think that's true at all. You're just being emotional again. You think Al would call the last 5 years a total success? You really think so? And you think Al would just carry on dong the same things DV did? I don't think so at all. Al's coached under Coryell, Marty, and DV... that's about as wide a range as you can get. I consider Al a unique individual, independent of all of those different coaches. And he's been successful with all of them.

With any team, Chiefs or otherwise, hiring Al means Al was a success, and he was. That's like saying you don't wanna hire Ron Rivera because his team's offense sucked and kept them from being successful.

I wouldn't mind Ron Rivera at all. He's never coached for the Chiefs, which is prerequisite #1 on my list.

[tk13]

I wouldn't mind Ron Rivera at all. He's never coached for the Chiefs, which is prerequisite #1 on my list.
I know. Thank God you aren't making that decision. That's one of the most illogical things I've ever heard.

[htismaqe]

I'm not on the Al Saunders bandwagon.

But if Al were hired, I'm not overly concerned with the scenario you've described playing out.

There was an article about Al that was posted to the planet about 3-4 months ago, and one thing he made fairly clear is that he learned the mistake of trying to extend the life of an aging team, and trying to continue doing the things that had been working before with less talented players.

I, of course, am paraphrasing.

He said that was his biggest mistake in his first opportunity as a HC.

Which further reinforces my previous point. There's just as good a chance that Al keeps this offense going as there is that he starts fresh...

[htismaqe]

I know. Thank God you aren't making that decision.

Yeah, lord knows that we should prepare for the next 5 years of futility by hiring someone that's well-versed in being mediocre...

[jspchief]

I'm not on the Al Saunders bandwagon.

But if Al were hired, I'm not overly concerned with the scenario you've described playing out.

There was an article about Al that was posted to the planet about 3-4 months ago, and one thing he made fairly clear is that he learned the mistake of trying to extend the life of an aging team, and trying to continue doing the things that had been working before with less talented players.

I, of course, am paraphrasing.

He said that was his biggest mistake in his first opportunity as a HC.That would seem to blow a hole in the reason many people want to keep him around.

Maybe he knows better than to try and cling to an aging team, but I have a hard time believing he'd be capable of saying good-bye to some of these guys when the time comes. I don't want to be clinging to an ineffective Trent Green for nostalgia's sake.

[tk13]

Yeah, lord knows that we should prepare for the next 5 years of futility by hiring someone that's well-versed in being mediocre...
You don't know if Al is going to be mediocre though. You have absolutely no clue. You are just making an assumption. You could sit here and talk until your head fell off of your shoulders, and it would not make your point any more logical.

I wouldn't call Al's job here the last 5 years mediocre either really.

[milkman]

That would seem to blow a hole in the reason many people want to keep him around.

Maybe he knows better than to try and cling to an aging team, but I have a hard time believing he'd be capable of saying good-bye to some of these guys when the time comes. I don't want to be clinging to an ineffective Trent Green for nostalgia's sake.

I think the reason that most Al Bandwagoners are on that bandwagon is because he won't start to rebuild next season, and possibly two.

[FringeNC]

Then how do you account for last year?

We had a better offense last year. More red zone opportunities + higher conversion rate....

Here's a stat for you. Through 14 games, Cinci had 11 more red zone opportunities than we did, despite virtually identical total offenses. Why? Look at the ridiculous number of turnovers Cincy has gotten...like we did in 2003.

2004 was the high mark for this offense. We averaged quite a bit more yards per game, and did have better red zone performance.

[jspchief]

You don't know if Al is going to be mediocre though. You have absolutely no clue. Neither do you.

We are all expressing opinions based on nothing but our own guesses and assumptions.

I guess the biggest difference to me is that some people believe that Al can fix this team, while I believe he can't.

I don't expect some new coach to come in and fix our current team. I expect him to build his own team.

Look at the teams that are in the play-offs this year. How many of them are built from a young nucleus, and how many of them are extensions of a crumbling empire?

Joe New Coach won't win us the Superbowl next year. But in 2008, we might have something that resembles the '06 Bengals, rather than something that resembles the '06 Rams.

[tk13]

We also had better special teams coverage/blocking in 2003.

[jspchief]

I think the reason that most Al Bandwagoners are on that bandwagon is because he won't start to rebuild next season, and possibly two.I agree.

And that's why I'm against Saunders. I think the rebuilding process needs to be started sooner. We have a decent young nucleus on defense IMO, and I don't think we can wait until they want their big money contracts to start replacing our aging offense.

[milkman]

I agree.

And that's why I'm against Saunders. I think the rebuilding process needs to be started sooner. We have a decent young nucleus on defense IMO, and I don't think we can wait until they want their big money contracts to start replacing our aging offense.

I agree with you, which is the primary reason I'm not on the Al Bandagon.

[FringeNC]

We also had better special teams coverage/blocking in 2003.

And Dante Hall hasn't returned many this year.

[htismaqe]

You don't know if Al is going to be mediocre though. You have absolutely no clue. You are just making an assumption. You could sit here and talk until your head fell off of your shoulders, and it would not make your point any more logical.

I wouldn't call Al's job here the last 5 years mediocre either really.

And you have absolutely no clue that he won't be mediocre. You don't know if he'll continue with this offense or not.

It's ALL assumption.

However, most in the "Keep Al" camp are treating their assumptions as foregone conclusions.

I never said my argument was logical.

This team is SICK. When you excise an abcess, you inevitably have to remove some of the good tissue with the bad. Al's only crime was that he was associated with Dick Vermeil.

And for me, that's enough to make me not want him.

[htismaqe]

Neither do you.

We are all expressing opinions based on nothing but our own guesses and assumptions.

I guess the biggest difference to me is that some people believe that Al can fix this team, while I believe he can't.

I don't expect some new coach to come in and fix our current team. I expect him to build his own team.

Look at the teams that are in the play-offs this year. How many of them are built from a young nucleus, and how many of them are extensions of a crumbling empire?

Joe New Coach won't win us the Superbowl next year. But in 2008, we might have something that resembles the '06 Bengals, rather than something that resembles the '06 Rams.

:clap:

[tk13]

Neither do you.

We are all expressing opinions based on nothing but our own guesses and assumptions.

I guess the biggest difference to me is that some people believe that Al can fix this team, while I believe he can't.

I don't expect some new coach to come in and fix our current team. I expect him to build his own team.

Look at the teams that are in the play-offs this year. How many of them are built from a young nucleus, and how many of them are extensions of a crumbling empire?

Joe New Coach won't win us the Superbowl next year. But in 2008, we might have something that resembles the '06 Bengals, rather than something that resembles the '06 Rams.
I never once claimed to know that Al was going to succeed. I don't, he could be a miserable failure.

But I wasn't the one making the claim he was mediocre. You can't accuse me of something I didn't assume. All I've said is he deserves a shot. If guys like Gregg Williams and Ron Rivera deserve a shot, then Al Saunders deserves a shot, somewhere.

And I'll say what I've said before. We aren't a crumbling empire. I don't think we have 10 years left or anything, but this is not anything close to a crumbling empire. We have four offensive linemen for sure Waters/Wiegmann/Black/Welbourn... and it's no guarantee Roaf will retire, he's said he wants to play.

Everybody seems to be dumping on Gonzalez... he's 29 years old. He only needs 3 catches and 81 yards to reach the third best totals of his entire career. Considering his two best seasons ahead of this one have been 100 catch, 1200 yard type seasons, that's not too shabby. It's not like Gonzo has gone in the tank.

But, if you wanna scrap this team and wait until '08 to win you might as well completely dismantle it, because you're probably gonna waste the rest of Gonzo's prime and LJ's best years in the process. I don't expect a new coach to come here and completely clean house like DV did, whether it's Al or not. That has no bearing on this discussion to me. That's not why I'd be interested in Al, because we have to get better, we wouldn't be "extending" anything, just hiring an accomplished coach, just like we would be if we hired Rivera or Childress or whoever.

[tk13]

This is like arguing with two women. I never made any claims that he'd be successful, only that he has a good resume and is not any less deserving of a head coaching job than anybody else that's been named on this thread.

Other people make an assumption, I call them out for it, and then they somehow turn it on me making an assumption I never made. This got messed up somewhere.

[Logical]

The main reason I want to see Al gone is a new Head Coach from outside the organization may have some leverage and we might see the entire coaching staff swept away. I think that is crucial to our effort to get a fresh start.

[stevieray]

So now we're down to getting a new HC and new Coordinators, scrapping this old offense and hoping it's rebuilt by 2008?

[Logical]

So now we're down to getting a new HC and new Coordinators, scrapping this old offense and hoping it's rebuilt by 2008?I don't know about that Stevie, the age of our offensive players is more the issue than the coordinator in that regard. Salary cap due to their time under contract will be far too negative to keep them all around even if they are able to still perform. We let the window get away from us, thus the 5 point game average score drop this year, it will only get worse until the rebuilding occurs.

[jspchief]

I never once claimed to know that Al was going to succeed. I don't, he could be a miserable failure.

But I wasn't the one making the claim he was mediocre. You can't accuse me of something I didn't assume.I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm just stating the simple fact that every one of us is talking out of our asses at this point. Surely you understand that what htis is saying is his opinon? I don't think he's trying to pass it off as fact any more than you are trying to claim Saunders is guranteed to be a successful head coach.

Hitsmaqe thinks Al will be mediocre.
You think he will be good.
etc, etc, etc.

It's all based on personal opinions. You act like Htis' opinion is so ludicrous because it's not based in fact, but it's not like anyone else's opinion is based any more in fact.

[htismaqe]

I never once claimed to know that Al was going to succeed. I don't, he could be a miserable failure.

It's not about success. It's about people (not necessarily you) assuming that hiring Al = keeping THIS offense intact. It's anything but a guarantee.

But I wasn't the one making the claim he was mediocre. You can't accuse me of something I didn't assume. All I've said is he deserves a shot. If guys like Gregg Williams and Ron Rivera deserve a shot, then Al Saunders deserves a shot, somewhere.

I never said Al was mediocre. Al was part of a TEAM of coaches that was mediocre. That TEAM needs to go. Football is more than just a little about mentality and this team has a loser mentality. If several of us view hiring Al as trying to continue the existing regime, you can damn bet several of the players look at it that way too.

[htismaqe]

So now we're down to getting a new HC and new Coordinators, scrapping this old offense and hoping it's rebuilt by 2008?

Who's to say Al won't take this offense in a new direction? Mike Martz did it in St. Louis.

[tk13]

I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm just stating the simple fact that every one of us is talking out of our asses at this point. Surely you understand that what htis is saying is his opinon? I don't think he's trying to pass it off as fact any more than you are trying to claim Saunders is guranteed to be a successful head coach.

Hitsmaqe thinks Al will be mediocre.
You think he will be good.
etc, etc, etc.

It's all based on personal opinions. You act like Htis' opinion is so ludicrous because it's not based in fact, but it's not like anyone else's opinion is based any more in fact.
But, I never claimed he would be good. I don't know that. I think he has a good resume of success that is comparable to any coach we'll interview though.

[jspchief]

So now we're down to getting a new HC and new Coordinators, scrapping this old offense and hoping it's rebuilt by 2008?Sort of, yes.

For instance, a new coach could look at bringing in a young QB right away, and he would get to learn under Green for a few years. I don't think Saunders would bring in true competition for the QB spot.

A new coach could look at the players that don't fit his defensive schemes, and start getting rid of some of them.

"Rebuild" isn't a dirty word. It's going to have to happen. But if we start early enough, we won't end up like the Titans, where it all hits at once because they put it off in favor of prolonging their "almost there" team.

[stevieray]

I don't know about that Stevie, the age of our offensive players is more the issue than the coordinator in that regard. Salary cap due to their time under contract will be far too negative to keep them all around even if they are able to still perform. We let the window get away from us, thus the 5 point game average score drop this year, it will only get worse until the rebuilding occurs.

ha! like the rebuilding guarantees success?

The next regime will be just as scrutinized and thrown under the bus the first chance that presents itself.

You need to read IdahoJims article on this offense being "old".

Five points a game? You can't expect the same production in different seasons. It's still one of the NFL's best.

OTOH, my gut says big shakeup at Arrowhead, it will be intersting to see how it plays out.

[jspchief]

But, I never claimed he would be good. I don't know that. I think he has a good resume of success that is comparable to any coach we'll interview though.The fact that you think he deserves a shot at head coach sort of implies that you think he'd be good.

Unless you're telling me you want the Chiefs to consider a guy that you don't think will be good.

[FringeNC]

It's not about success. It's about people (not necessarily you) assuming that hiring Al = keeping THIS offense intact. It's anything but a guarantee.



I never said Al was mediocre. Al was part of a TEAM of coaches that was mediocre. That TEAM needs to go. Football is more than just a little about mentality and this team has a loser mentality. If several of us view hiring Al as trying to continue the existing regime, you can damn bet several of the players look at it that way too.

What's this psycho babble about the team having a loser mentality? Does Trent Green Does LJ? Does Roaf? I think not.

Almost all of us agree that the problem is the D. I guess it all boils down to whether you consider DV/AS responsible for the putrid D because of the supposed soft ship they run or whatever. You do hold them responsible for the D; I don't. Nor do I give Tony Dungy credit for having a great offense in Indy. I think he has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[htismaqe]

Sort of, yes.

For instance, a new coach could look at bringing in a young QB right away, and he would get to learn under Green for a few years. I don't think Saunders would bring in true competition for the QB spot.

A new coach could look at the players that don't fit his defensive schemes, and start getting rid of some of them.

"Rebuild" isn't a dirty word. It's going to have to happen. But if we start early enough, we won't end up like the Titans, where it all hits at once because they put it off in favor of prolonging their "almost there" team.

Rebuild IS a dirty word in KC. I think most people would rather be 10-6 every year than do what it really takes to win it all...

[jspchief]

ha! like the rebuilding guarantees success?

Nope. It doesn't guarantee success.

The only things guaranteed is that these guys will continue to age, that aging will at some point affect their productivity, that they will get very expensive as they age, and that they will need to be replaced at some point due to any combination of the above factors.

We can start rebuilding the dam now, or we can wait until after the hurricane.

[htismaqe]

ha! like the rebuilding guarantees success?

The next regime will be just as scrutinized and thrown under the bus the first chance that presents itself.

You need to read IdahoJims article on this offense being "old".

Five points a game? You can't expect the same production in different seasons. It's still one of the NFL's best.

All the next regime has to do is WIN.

You act as if this current coaching staff (or the staff before it) doesn't DESERVE the criticism they get.

[FringeNC]

Rebuild IS a dirty word in KC. I think most people would rather be 10-6 every year than do what it really takes to win it all...

So Indy is probably going to win it this year because they have recently rebuilt?

CP had the easiest job of any GM. All he had to do was put a top 20 D on the field, and he has failed. And you think we'd be better off letting him start from scratch?

[htismaqe]

What's this psycho babble about the team having a loser mentality? Does Trent Green Does LJ? Does Roaf? I think not.

Almost all of us agree that the problem is the D. I guess it all boils down to whether you consider DV/AS responsible for the putrid D because of the supposed soft ship they run or whatever. You do hold them responsible for the D; I don't. Nor do I give Tony Dungy credit for having a great offense in Indy. I think he has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Tony Dungy ABSOLUTELY gets credit for the offense in Indy. That offense (which ranked as high as 2nd in points under Mora) won exactly zero playoff games.

Dungy's attitude and approach to the game is infectious

There's more to football than X's and O's. Saying Dungy deserves no credit for what's happened to Indy's offense since he arrived is absolutely ludicrous. The only thin more stupid is suggesting that this horrible D is somehow NOT Vermeil's fault.

[stevieray]

All the next regime has to do is WIN.

You act as if this current coaching staff (or the staff before it) doesn't DESERVE the criticism they get.

Not at all.

We either are in for a complete shake up, or stick with current coaches.. I think the true rebuild starts after next season.

[stevieray]

Rebuild IS a dirty word in KC. I think most people would rather be 10-6 every year than do what it really takes to win it all...


Ironic, I think of Cowher.

[htismaqe]

So Indy is probably going to win it this year because they have recently rebuilt?

CP had the easiest job of any GM. All he had to do was put a top 20 D on the field, and he has failed. And you think we'd be better off letting him start from scratch?

Everything is so black and white with you.

Indy put the pieces in place when they had back-to-back Top 5 draft picks. They only got those by REBUILDING. They had to go through some 3-win seasons to get those picks.

And then all they needed was the right coach to put it all together.

[jspchief]

So Indy is probably going to win it this year because they have recently rebuilt?

CP had the easiest job of any GM. All he had to do was put a top 20 D on the field, and he has failed. And you think we'd be better off letting him start from scratch?Yes. They brought in Dungy and rebuilt the defense and tweaked the offense.

And what would you rather do? Hire Saunders who will constantly be at odds with CP? Every time Saunders wants a guy, Peterson will be the guy that has to approve it. You act like the fact that Saunders will disagree with Peterson will somehow make Peterson fold to him. CP's still going to be the guy calling the shots. I'd just as soon have him calling the shots for a coach that he actually believes in.

[htismaqe]

Ironic, I think of Cowher.

And he's won how many Super Bowls?

[jspchief]

Ironic, I think of Cowher.You misspelled Marty.

[stevieray]

And he's won how many Super Bowls?

not my point, he's been consistant for years and can't get over the hump, yet he keeps his job.

[milkman]

You misspelled Marty.

No, he misspelled Clone.

[FringeNC]

Yes. They brought in Dungy and rebuilt the defense and tweaked the offense.

And what would you rather do? Hire Saunders who will constantly be at odds with CP? Every time Saunders wants a guy, Peterson will be the guy that has to approve it. You act like the fact that Saunders will disagree with Peterson will somehow make Peterson fold to him. CP's still going to be the guy calling the shots. I'd just as soon have him calling the shots for a coach that he actually believes in.

We have been constantly trying to rebuild our D to no avail.

Of course it's my opinion, but with DV or AS in charge, and a new DC, I think we are a playoff team. I just can't understand why you guys want to throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. Why not just clean house on the defensive side of the ball?

[jspchief]

We have been constantly trying to rebuild our D to no avail.

Of course it's my opinion, but with DV or AS in charge, and a new DC, I think we are a playoff team. I just can't understand why you guys want to throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. Why not just clean house on the defensive side of the ball?Why does Dick Vermeil get a pass for this defense? He's the Head Coach. The boss. He is ultimately to blame for the entire team that steps on the field. He's had two shots at building this defense and has failed at both attempts.

[FringeNC]

Everything is so black and white with you.

Indy put the pieces in place when they had back-to-back Top 5 draft picks. They only got those by REBUILDING. They had to go through some 3-win seasons to get those picks.

And then all they needed was the right coach to put it all together.

When's the last time Indy had a 3 win season? It's not that had to build a respectable D.

[htismaqe]

We have been constantly trying to rebuild our D to no avail.

Of course it's my opinion, but with DV or AS in charge, and a new DC, I think we are a playoff team. I just can't understand why you guys want to throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. Why not just clean house on the defensive side of the ball?

You act as if Vermeil has had one and only one defensive coordinator since he arrived.

We've had Robinson and Cunningham, two DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED defensive philosophy, and yet the results are the same.

This team is soft. They lack effort. They lack urgency.

They act EXACTLY like a team that's been treated with kid gloves at every turn. A group of players that's never been told that they'll lose they're job if they don't perform...

[htismaqe]

When's the last time Indy had a 3 win season? It's not that had to build a respectable D.

Football has both offense and defense.

Indy would have never had the offense that Dungy had nothing to do with if they hadn't won 6 games combined in 97 and 98. Those two seasons netted Manning and James.

Because we built our offense with older players, through free agency, we don't have the same ability to do with our defense what Indy did with theirs.

[Traveller]

How many coordinators have success as head coach of the SAME team they were coordinator of? There's got to be some reason it's so rare.

Just because nobody has mentioned him, Parcells was the DC of the Giants before taking over as Head Coach.

Pretty awesome example, but rare as mentioned by htismaqe.

[jspchief]

When's the last time Indy had a 3 win season? It's not that had to build a respectable D.1998

What is the nucleus of that team? Manning and James came from 3 win seasons.

That was a long time ago, but that's exactly the point. They built the young offense, and then added the defense to complete the puzzle.

We already missed our chance to complete the puzzle with this offense. Now we have a young defense to build on for a foundation. We can start adding offensive pieces to the puzzle and could have another contender in a few years.

[FringeNC]

Why does Dick Vermeil get a pass for this defense? He's the Head Coach. The boss. He is ultimately to blame for the entire team that steps on the field. He's had two shots at building this defense and has failed at both attempts.

One shot. Gun was not his move. How many head coaches were former OCs or DCs? Quite a few. How much impact does Tony Dungy have on the offense? How involved is Andy Reid in the D? How many DCs have Holmgren and Shanahan been through? I don't think it is a stretch to say in today's NFL that the head coach is a specialist in either O or D, and relies on a coordinator for the other side of the ball.

Vermeil should have fired Robinson after 2002. That was a mistake. I don't fault him for hiring Robinson. He had a good run at Denver. CP is completely responsible for the Gunther debacle.

We have one piece of the puzzle in place -- perhaps the best OC in the business.....You win in this league through coaching, given the salary cap constraints. I say it's a lot easier to find one good coordinator than two.

[jspchief]

One shot. Gun was not his move. How many head coaches were former OCs or DCs? Quite a few. How much impact does Tony Dungy have on the offense? How involved is Andy Reid in the D? How many DCs have Holmgren and Shanahan been through? I don't think it is a stretch to say in today's NFL that the head coach is a specialist in either O or D, and relies on a coordinator for the other side of the ball.

Vermeil should have fired Robinson after 2002. That was a mistake. I don't fault him for hiring Robinson. He had a good run at Denver. CP is completely responsible for the Gunther debacle.

We have one piece of the puzzle in place -- perhaps the best OC in the business.....You win in this league through coaching, given the salary cap constraints. I say it's a lot easier to find one good coordinator than two.Whether Vermeil chose Cunningham or not, he still chose to coach the team that Gun was the D-coord of.

Whether Vermeil's mistake was choosing the wrong guy in Robinson, or allowing someone else to choose the wrong guy in Cunningham, he's still to blame. He had the choice to refuse Peterson's choice of Gun. By sitting back and allowing Peterson to make the choice, he essentially agreed to it.

It doesn't matter if it was his doing, or if it happened because he allowed Peterson to dictate which coaches he would have.

Besides, who chose the position coaches on our defense?

[FringeNC]

You act as if Vermeil has had one and only one defensive coordinator since he arrived.

We've had Robinson and Cunningham, two DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED defensive philosophy, and yet the results are the same.

This team is soft. They lack effort. They lack urgency.

They act EXACTLY like a team that's been treated with kid gloves at every turn. A group of players that's never been told that they'll lose they're job if they don't perform...

The same could have been said about Indy before this year. That their D sucked because Dungy was soft or whatever. They have been quite similar to us these last few years...just not QUITE as bad on D, but almost.

[RealSNR]

Just because nobody has mentioned him, Parcells was the DC of the Giants before taking over as Head Coach.

Pretty awesome example, but rare as mentioned by htismaqe.You could also make a case for Mike Martz. He's had 3 playoff teams in his six years as Rams HC, including one team that made it to the SB. They could've/should've/would've won that game, they were the easy favorites against a young Pats team.

[jspchief]

You could also make a case for Mike Martz. He's had 3 playoff teams in his six years as Rams HC, including one team that made it to the SB. They could've/should've/would've won that game, they were the easy favorites against a young Pats team.Mike Martz is Barry Switzer. He took over a Superbowl team, and was able to not f*ck it up too much right away.

He didn't take over a team and make it better. He just rode the gravy train that Vermeil built him.

We don't need someone like that. We need someone that actually makes the team better.

[FringeNC]

Maybe Herm will bring this fantastic OC with him.

[RealSNR]

Mike Martz is Barry Switzer. He took over a Superbowl team, and was able to not f*ck it up too much right away.

He didn't take over a team and make it better. He just rode the gravy train that Vermeil built him.

We don't need someone like that. We need someone that actually makes the team better.Not necessarily.

1999- Vermeil wins Super Bowl

Early 2000- Martz is hired

Beginning of 2000 season- Rams are winning using offense, defense blows. Defense implodes against Chiefs. Messy mid-season change of coordinators

2001 season- Massive FA upgrade

2001 playoffs- Superbowl loss

Vermeil's leftover champs were 7-9 the very next season. The new and improved Rams were under Martz.

[jspchief]

Maybe Herm will bring this fantastic OC with him.Ironic that you blame Herm for his Coordinators in the same thread that you excuse Vermeil for his. :shake:

[FringeNC]

Ironic that you blame Herm for his Coordinators in the same thread that you excuse Vermeil for his. :shake:

If Herm had the #1 D in the league, and Heimerdinger was forced down Herm's throat, we might have similar situations.

Anyway, my point was nothing related to Herm in the first place. The point was obvious, yet misunderstood by you: that we should be thankful as hell for having Saunders. Shake your head to that all you want.

[Frankie]

I don't think he's overrated. He's been a successful coach everywhere he's ever been.

Just look at our offense and what it was built out of. We took a veteran QB who'd been a starter just once a few years back for 15 games that was coming off a serious knee injury. We took a veteran RB who'd been a starter just once and wasn't highly thought of. We got a steal for a LT in Roaf that everybody thought was washed up. We have a pro-bowl left guard that was a converted fullback. We took Olin Kreutz' backup center in Chicago, and turned him into one of the best centers in football. We have a converted guard at RT. We took a washed up #1 pick that had been dumped by 4 or 5 teams and turned him into a 1000 yard reciever. We have a 4th round pick in his 2nd year at the other receiver. We took a converted RB and turned him into a decent #3 WR and one of the best return men in the game.

I don't think people even appreciate how amazing it is that we built this offense, especially in such an unconventional way. For Al to help turn these guys into maybe the best offense of the last 5 years is really quite amazing. The only team that can compete with us is the Colts, and they have #1 picks all over the field. We actually did it through player evaluation and development. I think it's pretty impressive.
Rep. Great observation.

[htismaqe]

One shot. Gun was not his move. How many head coaches were former OCs or DCs? Quite a few. How much impact does Tony Dungy have on the offense? How involved is Andy Reid in the D? How many DCs have Holmgren and Shanahan been through? I don't think it is a stretch to say in today's NFL that the head coach is a specialist in either O or D, and relies on a coordinator for the other side of the ball.

Vermeil should have fired Robinson after 2002. That was a mistake. I don't fault him for hiring Robinson. He had a good run at Denver. CP is completely responsible for the Gunther debacle.

We have one piece of the puzzle in place -- perhaps the best OC in the business.....You win in this league through coaching, given the salary cap constraints. I say it's a lot easier to find one good coordinator than two.

There are absolutely zero facts to support that. Everything said and done by the team indicates that Vermeil was 100% behind the hiring of Gunther.

[htismaqe]

If Herm had the #1 D in the league, and Heimerdinger was forced down Herm's throat, we might have similar situations.

Anyway, my point was nothing related to Herm in the first place. The point was obvious, yet misunderstood by you: that we should be thankful as hell for having Saunders. Shake your head to that all you want.

We should be thankful as hell for 1 playoff appearance and no playoff wins?

His offenses put up gaudy stats, yep. You want to pinpoint blame on one person (Gunther) when this TEAM has failed on many occasions.

It's amazing that Chiefs fans have become so used to losing that now they're thankful for being ranked #1 in total offense, as if it really means anything...

[Frankie]

Yep...like I said if Saunders was so effing great he would have made adjustments when Roaf went down.

I was at the dollar theater a couple of nights back. What I thout was 4 quarters in my pocket turned out to be 3 quarters and a nickle. If I were so effing creative I would have made adjustments and obtained a ticket with the 80 cents that I had. Damn I'm so bad! I can't do the impossible!

:rolleyes:

[Logical]

Not at all.

We either are in for a complete shake up, or stick with current coaches.. I think the true rebuild starts after next season.Probably correct, I predict we will be lucky to win 8 if we keep the same players this offseason.

[htismaqe]

I was at the dollar theater a couple of nights back. What I thout was 4 quarters in my pocket turned out to be 3 quarters and a nickle. If I were so effing creative I would have made adjustments and obtained a ticket with the 80 cents that I had. Damn I'm so bad! I can't do the impossible!

All you had to do was admit that you were 20 cents short and go to the matinee instead of insisting on going opening night...

[Frankie]

I wouldn't mind Ron Rivera at all. He's never coached for the Chiefs, which is prerequisite #1 on my list.
Somebody else's one year wonder is green grass and our own solid coaching talent is dirt. :hmmm:

[Logical]

All you had to do was admit that you were 20 cents short and go to the matinee instead of insisting on going opening night...ROFL

[htismaqe]

Somebody else's one year wonder is green grass and our own solid coaching talent is dirt. :hmmm:

Yeah, don't flush that turd. You might want to dig through it first, there might be a diamond in it...

[BigMeatballDave]

Yep...like I said if Saunders was so effing great he would have made adjustments when Roaf went down.I really like the brainstorm he had to keep our reception leader in to block when Roaf went down. Nevermind the fact that we have about the best blocking TE in football in Jason Dunn...
:rolleyes:

[Frankie]

I think the reason that most Al Bandwagoners are on that bandwagon is because he won't start to rebuild next season, and possibly two.I think the reason most fire sale advocates are on the "discard everything" bandwagon is they blindly assume that a "rebuilding" is in order. That IMO is stupid. We have a proven offensive system and an ascending young "D." If Roaf comes back for another year or two we need only to replace Shields. I love Will Shields, but between him and Roaf, I consider Shields more easily replaceable. We are actually in a good position to avoid wholesale changes (rebuilding) and just keep replacing the cogs in the machine that are about to get rusty in the next few years.

[jspchief]

I think the reason most fire sale advocates are on the "discard everything" bandwagon is they blindly assume that a "rebuilding" is in order. That IMO is stupid. We have a proven offensive system and an ascending young "D." If Roaf comes back for another year or two we need only to replace Shields. I love Will Shields, but between him and Roaf, I consider Shields more easily replaceable. We are actually in a good position to avoid wholesale changes (rebuilding) and just keep replacing the cogs in the machine that are about to get rusty in the next few years.Who are the "fire sale" people that want to "discard everything"?

I haven't seen someone post that yet.

[Frankie]

This is like arguing with two women. I never made any claims that he'd be successful, only that he has a good resume and is not any less deserving of a head coaching job than anybody else that's been named on this thread.

Other people make an assumption, I call them out for it, and then they somehow turn it on me making an assumption I never made. This got messed up somewhere.Exactly my sentiment. It's damn frustrating.

[Logical]

I think the reason most fire sale advocates are on the "discard everything" bandwagon is they blindly assume that a "rebuilding" is in order. That IMO is stupid. We have a proven offensive system and an ascending young "D." If Roaf comes back for another year or two we need only to replace Shields. I love Will Shields, but between him and Roaf, I consider Shields more easily replaceable. We are actually in a good position to avoid wholesale changes (rebuilding) and just keep replacing the cogs in the machine that are about to get rusty in the next few years.

Yes but not for the reasons you think. The salary cap will force our hand, we must rid ourselves of a boatload which will prevent us from improving the defense much if any while further degrading the offense. Time to start building now.

[Frankie]

The main reason I want to see Al gone is a new Head Coach from outside the organization may have some leverage and we might see the entire coaching staff swept away. I think that is crucial to our effort to get a fresh start.If we are to accept the notion of CP's ego, then he will not bring in any HC who will have any "leverage."

[Logical]

If we are to accept the notion of CP's ego, then he will not bring in any HC who will have any "leverage."

Depends, if he brings in a name like has been mentioned they probably at a minimum will be given their own coaching staff. I dislike Carl but I think as long as he is not promoting from within he will allow that to happen.

[Tribal Warfare]

I think as long as he is not promoting from within he will allow that to happen.

Does that include Herman Edwards?

[Rausch]

Yes but not for the reasons you think. The salary cap will force our hand, we must rid ourselves of a boatload which will prevent us from improving the defense much if any while further degrading the offense. Time to start building now.

You wait until early April and you'll see that we are NOT going to have a money problem.

Shields is gone, give that hope up. Same with Holmes. TRich will restructure. Kennison will restructure. Woods, McCleon, and Barber will be cut. Dunn will restructure or be cut. Wilbourn and Siavii will be cut. Hicks will restructure or be cut.

[Hammock Parties]

Probably correct, I predict we will be lucky to win 8 if we keep the same players this offseason.

I don't. I think we have as much talent as most any of the playoff teams.

And Mitchell, DJ, Parker, LJ, Fox and others are only going to improve.

I'd like to see us bring in a defensive line upgrade through free agency and have a solid draft this offseason. I'd be happy with that.

[BigMeatballDave]

You wait until early April and you'll see that we are NOT going to have a money problem.

Shields is gone, give that hope up. Same with Holmes. TRich will restructure. Kennison will restructure. Woods, McCleon, and Barber will be cut. Dunn will restructure or be cut. Wilbourn and Siavii will be cut. Hicks will restructure or be cut.Welbourn cut? I figured he'd replace Shields. Who knows?

[Frankie]

Rebuild IS a dirty word in KC. I think most people would rather be 10-6 every year than do what it really takes to win it all...We "rebuilt" throughout the '70s and the '80s. No thank you. Going in that direction takes you off course for much longer than you think most of the time. Oakland keeps "rebuilding." Arizona keeps "rebuilding." New Orleans keeps "rebuilding." We have earned a team that does not need rebuilding, only servicing. I, for one, cannot afford the frustration of another decade or more of "rebuilding." I can handle the frustration of having a team close enough to the top every year that in any season there is a viable chance that given the right brakes we might brake through.

[Rausch]

Welbourn cut? I figured he'd replace Shields. Who knows?

I don't think that's the plan at all.

Now, that move is JMO. The guy has failed to live up to each and every expectation we've had.

Peterson is not all peaches and forgiveness like DV when it comes to production and paycheck....

[Logical]

Does that include Herman Edwards?Yes but I hope it is not him.

[jspchief]

We "rebuilt" throughout the '70s and the '80s. No thank you. Going in that direction takes you off course for much longer than you think most of the time. Oakland keeps "rebuilding." Arizona keeps "rebuilding." New Orleans keeps "rebuilding." We have earned a team that does not need rebuilding, only servicing. I, for one, cannot afford the frustration of another decade or more of "rebuilding." I can handle the frustration of having a team close enough to the top every year that in any season there is a viable chance that given the right brakes we might brake through.Goes back to what I said earlier... if you're satisfied with the status quo, Saunders is your man.

[Frankie]

Just because nobody has mentioned him, Parcells was the DC of the Giants before taking over as Head Coach.So was Marty with the Browns. He also was pretty successful with them. Far more than his old boss.

[Tribal Warfare]

Yes but I hope it is not him.


I concur

[Logical]

You wait until early April and you'll see that we are NOT going to have a money problem.

Shields is gone, give that hope up. Same with Holmes. TRich will restructure. Kennison will restructure. Woods, McCleon, and Barber will be cut. Dunn will restructure or be cut. Wilbourn and Siavii will be cut. Hicks will restructure or be cut.I completely agree that Shields will be gone. I think Dunn already makes only the veteran minimum, he shopped himself and as I recall only got a signing bonus out of it so restructuring is not likely. I agree with the rest, but don't think that will have us pursuing any new talent in free agency. You watch other than some minor nobodies we won't play in free agency again just like in 2004.

[Frankie]

1998

What is the nucleus of that team? Manning and James came from 3 win seasons.
They thought long and hard about taking the QB that SD took in that draft. They could have pissed on their 3 win privilage just as easily. They just rolled the dice on the two QBs that were pegged to go first in the draft and hit snakes eyes. You guys think going 3-13 will guarantee the next Manning or Palmer. Rebuilding is a risky business. It might be YEARS before we are even back to the level we are now.

[Frankie]

You wait until early April and you'll see that we are NOT going to have a money problem.

Shields is gone, give that hope up. Same with Holmes. TRich will restructure. Kennison will restructure. Woods, McCleon, and Barber will be cut. Dunn will restructure or be cut. Wilbourn and Siavii will be cut. Hicks will restructure or be cut.
I agree. Except I think Wellbourn and possibly Siavii will be kept.

[Frankie]

I don't. I think we have as much talent as most any of the playoff teams.

And Mitchell, DJ, Parker, LJ, Fox and others are only going to improve.

I'd like to see us bring in a defensive line upgrade through free agency and have a solid draft this offseason. I'd be happy with that.
I agree with that.

[jspchief]

They thought long and hard about taking the QB that SD took in that draft. They could have pissed on their 3 win privilage just as easily. They just rolled the dice on the two QBs that were pegged to go first in the draft and hit snakes eyes. You guys think going 3-13 will guarantee the next Manning or Palmer. Rebuilding is a risky business. It might be YEARS before we are even back to the level we are now.Bill Polian was booed that year for choosing Manning over Leaf. The following year he was booed for choosing Edgerinn James over Ricky Williams. They had a GM that made the right choices.

Does an early pick guarantee you a great player? Of course not.

But that doesn't change the fact that some of the best teams in the league this year are coming off of poor seasons and rebuilding projects. Sometimes a trip to the gutter can reap rewards down the road.

Besides, I don't think anyone is suggesting tanking the next two years for good draft picks. It's more a matter of not wanting to be a team that tried to hold on to the magic for too long. A new head coach isn't going to run off the 8 pro-bowlers on our offense, nor is he going to screw them up. But he will be able to start building the foundation for the next Chiefs era while taking advantage of whatever is left of those guys.

My biggest fear with Saunders is simply that he won't know how to, or be able to, let go of some of these aging vets when the time comes. There will be a day where guys like Green and Gonzo are no longer good enough, or are just too expensive. I'm also worried that Saunders will pull a Martz and try to keep the system intact with lesser players that know the system, instead of adjusting the system to fit new players.

[Frankie]

Yes but I hope it is not him.
AMEN!

[Frankie]

Goes back to what I said earlier... if you're satisfied with the status quo, Saunders is your man.
You call it "status quo," I call it keeping ready to jump through the first open door. I want to stay near that door.

[jspchief]

You call it "status quo," I call it keeping ready to jump through the first open door. I want to stay near that door.The door has opened once in the last five years, and we didn't make it through.

[Rausch]

Bill Polian was booed that year for choosing Manning over Leaf. The following year he was booed for choosing Edgerinn James over Ricky Williams. They had a GM that made the right choices.

Does an early pick guarantee you a great player? Of course not.



That said Peterson has been amazing over the last 5 years.

J. Allen, DJ, LJ, Dante, Parker, Trade for Green, trade for MeatRoaf, K. Mitchell, trade for Surtain, B. Sapp, Blaylock, Colquitt, etc.

He's signed guys like Kennison (considered an afterthought, became a top 5 all time Chiefs WR), Knight, Weigman, Watters (a rookie FA FB turned PB G), Holmes, and Dunn...

And, of course, who could forget Rich Scanlon?...

[Rausch]

The door has opened once in the last five years, and we didn't make it through.

LJ just stuck his foot in the door...

[Logical]

That said Peterson has been amazing over the last 5 years.

J. Allen, DJ, LJ, Dante, Parker, Trade for Green, trade for MeatRoaf, K. Mitchell, trade for Surtain, B. Sapp, Blaylock, Colquitt, etc.

He's signed guys like Kennison (considered an afterthought, became a top 5 all time Chiefs WR), Knight, Weigman, Watters (a rookie FA FB turned PB G), Holmes, and Dunn...

And, of course, who could forget Rich Scanlon?...Did you and Stevie become love bunnies or something?

[Redcoats58]

I'm not understanding how a guy(Saunders)that has done nothing but succeed is being labeled as mediocre. If Saunders gets the job he could very well hire his own pick of assistants and could be a great head coach.

I'm thinking the other choices of head coaches are the bigger crap shoots.

Saunders has done all we could expect of him and if his performance as an offensive coordinator translates to his head coaching we could be in for a great run.

Because he has fielded one of the most dominant offenses the last few years I believe getting rid of him is a mistake. Now this is also under the assumption that Saunders will rid of some of the Vermeil cling-ons. If that doesn't happen then I don't want him.

I also believe another problem we will have if we get a new head coach is that CP will let them bring in their own assistants but he won't let them replace Gunther. Gunther has had more then enough time to field a respectable defense but has failed.

[htismaqe]

We "rebuilt" throughout the '70s and the '80s. No thank you. Going in that direction takes you off course for much longer than you think most of the time. Oakland keeps "rebuilding." Arizona keeps "rebuilding." New Orleans keeps "rebuilding." We have earned a team that does not need rebuilding, only servicing. I, for one, cannot afford the frustration of another decade or more of "rebuilding." I can handle the frustration of having a team close enough to the top every year that in any season there is a viable chance that given the right brakes we might brake through.

And there it is.

The REAL reason Frankie wants to hand the job to Saunders.

FEAR.

[htismaqe]

I don't. I think we have as much talent as most any of the playoff teams.

And Mitchell, DJ, Parker, LJ, Fox and others are only going to improve.

I'd like to see us bring in a defensive line upgrade through free agency and have a solid draft this offseason. I'd be happy with that.

Yep.

Our offense has a couple of years left. Our defense is young.

[htismaqe]

Bill Polian was booed that year for choosing Manning over Leaf. The following year he was booed for choosing Edgerinn James over Ricky Williams. They had a GM that made the right choices.

Does an early pick guarantee you a great player? Of course not.

But that doesn't change the fact that some of the best teams in the league this year are coming off of poor seasons and rebuilding projects. Sometimes a trip to the gutter can reap rewards down the road.

Besides, I don't think anyone is suggesting tanking the next two years for good draft picks. It's more a matter of not wanting to be a team that tried to hold on to the magic for too long. A new head coach isn't going to run off the 8 pro-bowlers on our offense, nor is he going to screw them up. But he will be able to start building the foundation for the next Chiefs era while taking advantage of whatever is left of those guys.

My biggest fear with Saunders is simply that he won't know how to, or be able to, let go of some of these aging vets when the time comes. There will be a day where guys like Green and Gonzo are no longer good enough, or are just too expensive. I'm also worried that Saunders will pull a Martz and try to keep the system intact with lesser players that know the system, instead of adjusting the system to fit new players.

Yet another excellent post.