Herm Edwards

[Alphaman]

Did anyone see Herm in the lockerroom on the CBS post game show?

1) He said something along the lines of "What's been good about coaching you guys this year is that you always fought hard". Sounded alot like a farewell speech.

2) He then switched into motivation mode where he said "What matters is that we are undefeated in 2006. That's all that matters."

3) Boomer, Marino and Sharpe all talked about how hard the players played for him. They said it was a sign of how good of a motivator he is and how is players respect him.

I think he'd be a fabulous selection as our next HC.

[htismaqe]

Sounds alot like Dick Vermeil.

We need discipline. I don't really want the players to be "friends" with the coach anymore...

[Alphaman]

Sounds alot like Dick Vermeil.

We need discipline. I don't really want the players to be "friends" with the coach anymore...

How did you get lack of discipline out of that?

[htismaqe]

How did you get lack of discipline out of that?

Herm Edwards has always been considered a "players" coach. Most people feel his strength is motivation and his weakness is loyalty to inept coordinators.

Sounds alot like Vermeil.

[Hoover]

Did anyone see Herm in the lockerroom on the CBS post game show?

1) He said something along the lines of "What's been good about coaching you guys this year is that you always fought hard". Sounded alot like a farewell speech.

2) He then switched into motivation mode where he said "What matters is that we are undefeated in 2006. That's all that matters."

3) Boomer, Marino and Sharpe all talked about how hard the players played for him. They said it was a sign of how good of a motivator he is and how is players respect him.

I think he'd be a fabulous selection as our next HC.
It didn't sound like a farewell speach to me. Herm is OK, and a hell of a cheerleader, but I would rather go a different direction.

[Alphaman]

Herm Edwards has always been considered a "players" coach. Most people feel his strength is motivation and his weakness is loyalty to inept coordinators.

Sounds alot like Vermeil.

Interesting.

1) I'll ask the same question: How do you get lack of discipline out of that?

2) Loyalty to inept coordinators? In another thread against Herm Edwards, someone used as an argument that Herm is NOT loyal to coordinators. They said he's had 3 OCs and 2 DCs in his 5 year tenure.

Interesting.

[tomahawk kid]

Comment #2 makes me think he's staying.

To me, it sounds more and more like Herm's staying put.......

[Alphaman]

It didn't sound like a farewell speach to me. Herm is OK, and a hell of a cheerleader, but I would rather go a different direction.

That's fair. People hear and see things differently. What direction would you prefer to go in and why?

[Alphaman]

Comment #2 makes me think he's staying.

To me, it sounds more and more like Herm's staying put.......

I agree that statement sets him up to return. I think he will stay in NY if he gets the extension he's asked for. If not, he won't.

[htismaqe]

Interesting.

1) I'll ask the same question: How do you get lack of discipline out of that?

2) Loyalty to inept coordinators? In another thread against Herm Edwards, someone used as an argument that Herm is NOT loyal to coordinators. They said he's had 3 OCs and 2 DCs in his 5 year tenure.

Interesting.

1) I got it from this:

Boomer, Marino and Sharpe all talked about how hard the players played for him. They said it was a sign of how good of a motivator he is and how is players respect him.

2) I mispoke. I didn't mean "loyalty". More that he has a group of guys that he's worked with in the past that he gives jobs to, even though they aren't very good.

[Alphaman]

1) I got it from this:

Boomer, Marino and Sharpe all talked about how hard the players played for him. They said it was a sign of how good of a motivator he is and how is players respect him.

2) I mispoke. I didn't mean "loyalty". More that he has a group of guys that he's worked with in the past that he gives jobs to, even though they aren't very good.

1) I don't see how you get lack of discipline from that, but you are entitled to your opinion. Trust me, I'm not engaging in this conversation to try to change your mind, just to understand your opinion.

2) That's fair. I don't like that he used Hackett and Jimmy Raye. I do like the attitude of Donnie Henderson (I'd like him to be our DB coach under Gun). However, I think he would promote someone from this staff to be OC and keep the same offensive scheme rather than going to the west coast offense he's tried to run in NY.

[RedThat]

Herm Edwards has always been considered a "players" coach. Most people feel his strength is motivation and his weakness is loyalty to inept coordinators.

Sounds alot like Vermeil.

They are somewhat similar in their approach. I just want to add that, I think Herm is more competitive, and confident as a coach. I think he is the kinda coach that would give us that edge mentally. Thats what this team needs, a little bit more of a killer instinct to put us over the top. He could bring that to the table. he is not as soft as Vermeil, which is a good thing. Plus, he is a defensive minded coach! If we do happen to get him, I hope he is intellegent enough to realize we've had the top offense in the league the last 4 years, and don't mess it up!

[Mecca]

1) I don't see how you get lack of discipline from that, but you are entitled to your opinion. Trust me, I'm not engaging in this conversation to try to change your mind, just to understand your opinion.

2) That's fair. I don't like that he used Hackett and Jimmy Raye. I do like the attitude of Donnie Henderson (I'd like him to be our DB coach under Gun). However, I think he would promote someone from this staff to be OC and keep the same offensive scheme rather than going to the west coast offense he's tried to run in NY.

I'm sorry man, Gun's gotta go.

[htismaqe]

1) I don't see how you get lack of discipline from that, but you are entitled to your opinion. Trust me, I'm not engaging in this conversation to try to change your mind, just to understand your opinion.

2) That's fair. I don't like that he used Hackett and Jimmy Raye. I do like the attitude of Donnie Henderson (I'd like him to be our DB coach under Gun). However, I think he would promote someone from this staff to be OC and keep the same offensive scheme rather than going to the west coast offense he's tried to run in NY.

1) My opinion was formed from far more than just that one quote. That quote just fits with what I've read before.

2) Herm had problems on defense too, and fought hard to keep Cottrell at one point.

Regardless, I think we could do alot worse than Edwards. I just have some concerns is all...

[Alphaman]

1) My opinion was formed from far more than just that one quote. That quote just fits with what I've read before.

2) Herm had problems on defense too, and fought hard to keep Cottrell at one point.

Regardless, I think we could do alot worse than Edwards. I just have some concerns is all...

1) Can you paraphrase some of the things you've heard to enlighten me?

2) Ted Cottrell is regarded as a very good DC. Fighting hard to keep him is not a negative as I see it.

[TRR]

I can't stand Herm Edwards. He's a rah-rah coach that continues to underachieve season after season after season. People can blame injuries, misfortunate, etc...on Edwards failures. The point is, I don't want him anywhere near Kansas City.

[htismaqe]

1) Can you paraphrase some of the things you've heard to enlighten me?

2) Ted Cottrell is regarded as a very good DC. Fighting hard to keep him is not a negative as I see it.

I've just read and heard from alot of places that Herm is a "player's coach", that he treats them more like peers than subordinates.

[Mecca]

I can't stand Herm Edwards. He's a rah-rah coach that continues to underachieve season after season after season. People can blame injuries, misfortunate, etc...on Edwards failures. The point is, I don't want him anywhere near Kansas City.

The Jets still went to the playoffs in the last 4 years more than we did.......and they aren't any more talented.

[FringeNC]

I posted it on another thread, but when Gretz was talking about coaches, I didn't get the feeling that the Herm Edwards thing was a done deal at all.

[Mecca]

I posted it on another thread, but when Gretz was talking about coaches, I didn't get the feeling that the Herm Edwards thing was a done deal at all.

Um yea, he's still under contract. Even if it is, you don't want to get hit with tampering.

[Alphaman]

I'm sorry man, Gun's gotta go.

I'm concerned about whether Gun is all passion and no strategy. However, there are two facts that give me optimism for Gun:

1) The run defense GREATLY improved this year. They had 2 games this year where they failed in stopping the run (@ Denver and @ NY Giants). But they did end the year in the top 10 against the run and the last 2 games they faced 2 top 5 RBs (Tomlinson and Rudy Johnson) and gave them nothing. Gun said that we would first stop the run.

2) If you remember Vermeil said he went to Gun and wanted him to not ask the CBs to do things they couldn't do. That was to match up one on one at the line of scrimmage. Vermeil wanted the guys to play 5 to 10 yards off the line to keep them from getting exposed. I think that is a major reason why the passing defense suffered. I think Surtain and Warfield can play press coverage. I don't think McCleon and Washington can. I also don't think Guinta and Dean can teach it. I think Herm prefers press coverage and will allow Gun to employ it. I think Henderson can teach it. I think Herm would allow Gun to get rid of McCleon.

That's alot of I thinks so it is just my speculation.

[Mecca]

When Gun was a good DC we had hall of fame talent on the field. Most any coordinator would get it done with that.

The games we played where the team had an inept QB and had to run, we didn't stop it. I think alot of us stopping the run was teams knew they could just chuck it around on us. It was better, but when you're completely selling out to stop the run and giving up giant pass plays in the process is it really an improvement in overall defense?

[Alphaman]

I can't stand Herm Edwards. He's a rah-rah coach that continues to underachieve season after season after season. People can blame injuries, misfortunate, etc...on Edwards failures. The point is, I don't want him anywhere near Kansas City.


I won't try to change your opinion of him, but how does 3 playoff appearances in his first 4 years equate to underachieving, especially when he's in the same division as the dynasty known as the NE Patriots during that timeframe?

[FringeNC]

I won't try to change your opinion of him, but how does 3 playoff appearances in his first 4 years equate to underachieving, especially when he's in the same division as the dynasty known as the NE Patriots during that timeframe?

How's Herm going to improve the D? He's not a D guru.

[Herzig]

When Gun was a good DC we had hall of fame talent on the field. Most any coordinator would get it done with that.


Derrick Thomas is the only defensive Hall of Famer(only a matter of time), but I can't think of any others. Can you?

[Mecca]

Well, Herm was a defensive coach before being a head coach.........

[Mecca]

Derrick Thomas is the only defensive Hall of Famer(only a matter of time), but I can't think of any others. Can you?

2 elite pass rushers, 2 elite corners, a corner playing free safety then add in great LB talent. I think you could have made that defense rank well calling the plays. If you have 2 elite pass rushers and 2 top corners, you can do anything you want on defense.

[htismaqe]

I'm concerned about whether Gun is all passion and no strategy. However, there are two facts that give me optimism for Gun:

1) The run defense GREATLY improved this year. They had 2 games this year where they failed in stopping the run (@ Denver and @ NY Giants). But they did end the year in the top 10 against the run and the last 2 games they faced 2 top 5 RBs (Tomlinson and Rudy Johnson) and gave them nothing. Gun said that we would first stop the run.

2) If you remember Vermeil said he went to Gun and wanted him to not ask the CBs to do things they couldn't do. That was to match up one on one at the line of scrimmage. Vermeil wanted the guys to play 5 to 10 yards off the line to keep them from getting exposed. I think that is a major reason why the passing defense suffered. I think Surtain and Warfield can play press coverage. I don't think McCleon and Washington can. I also don't think Guinta and Dean can teach it. I think Herm prefers press coverage and will allow Gun to employ it. I think Henderson can teach it. I think Herm would allow Gun to get rid of McCleon.

That's alot of I thinks so it is just my speculation.

Actually the run defense wasn't dramatically improved. Going into the New York game we were 19th in the league in yards per carry and 4th in the league in rushing attempts against.

The reason we "appeared" good was because teams weren't trying to run against us.

[Alphaman]

When Gun was a good DC we had hall of fame talent on the field. Most any coordinator would get it done with that.

The games we played where the team had an inept QB and had to run, we didn't stop it. I think alot of us stopping the run was teams knew they could just chuck it around on us. It was better, but when you're completely selling out to stop the run and giving up giant pass plays in the process is it really an improvement in overall defense?

Outside of @ Denver and @ NY Giants who did we not stop. We sold out completely to stop the run last year and didn't get it done. Gun improved the the play of Kawika Mitchell. He improved the run defense of Jared Allen. He improved the play of Ryan Sims.

Tomlinson, Portis, Curtis Martin, Rudy Johnson, Ronnie Brown, Julius Jones are all guys who have put up big numbers against various teams. The Chiefs shut them down.

If a team can run on you, they will do it. That will demoralize a team.

[FringeNC]

Well, Herm was a defensive coach before being a head coach.........

Yeah, but he's not recognized as being some type of hands on guy on D. I don't think hiring Herm would be a disaster (like Stoops), but if we're not hiring someone like Williams who is known as D guru, how are we going to make big strides on D?

[Mecca]

Outside of @ Denver and @ NY Giants who did we not stop. We sold out completely to stop the run last year and didn't get it done. Gun improved the the play of Kawika Mitchell. He improved the run defense of Jared Allen. He improved the play of Ryan Sims.

Tomlinson, Portis, Curtis Martin, Rudy Johnson, Ronnie Brown, Julius Jones are all guys who have put up big numbers against various teams. The Chiefs shut them down.

If a team can run on you, they will do it. That will demoralize a team.

Ronnie Brown had something like 9 carries for 95 yards on us......

[FringeNC]

Actually the run defense wasn't dramatically improved. Going into the New York game we were 19th in the league in yards per carry and 4th in the league in rushing attempts against.

The reason we "appeared" good was because teams weren't trying to run against us.

Exactly.

[Alphaman]

Actually the run defense wasn't dramatically improved. Going into the New York game we were 19th in the league in yards per carry and 4th in the league in rushing attempts against.

The reason we "appeared" good was because teams weren't trying to run against us.

Even 19th in the league in ypc is a dramatic improvement over where we were under G-Rob. How did that ypc look in the last half of the season (not including the NYG game, I agree we were horrible in that game).

One more thing about teams abandoning the run. We only had 2 blowouts this year that forced teams out of the run. Philly and Cincy (won one and lost one).

The other 14 games were relatively close and most NFL coaches would want to balance run and pass.

[Mecca]

Yeah, but he's not recognized as being some type of hands on guy on D. I don't think hiring Herm would be a disaster (like Stoops), but if we're not hiring someone like Williams who is known as D guru, how are we going to make big strides on D?

You're viewing head coaching wrong. It takes more than being a great coordinator to be a good head coach. Gregg Williams is an excellent DC, but I got a friend who's a Bills fan who'd tell you Herman Edwards smokes him as a head coach.

[Alphaman]

Ronnie Brown had something like 9 carries for 95 yards on us......

True. Most of that came on one breakout run, but he got nothing else in that game. Neither did Ricky Williams. But that run counts. So I'll give you 3 RBs had big games against us. The other 13 did not.

[htismaqe]

Even 19th in the league in ypc is a dramatic improvement over where we were under G-Rob. How did that ypc look in the last half of the season (not including the NYG game, I agree we were horrible in that game).

Well, compare it to 2003.

First, if you're going to take the Giants game out of the statistical sample, you have to take the 2003 Denver away game out of the sample too. That's only fair. I prefer to leave them in, since the games were both against good teams on the road.

This year's defense:

4.25ypc, 25th in the league

2003 defense:

5.17ypc, 32nd in the league

Better than bad does not equal good.

[htismaqe]

True. Most of that came on one breakout run, but he got nothing else in that game. Neither did Ricky Williams. But that run counts. So I'll give you 3 RBs had big games against us. The other 13 did not.

The result was the same in 2003. We did reasonably well stopping the run early in the season.

Eventually, you get exposed for what you really are. They did in 2003, and they did again this year.

[Eleazar]

No... please no...

[Alphaman]

Well, compare it to 2003.

First, if you're going to take the Giants game out of the statistical sample, you have to take the 2003 Denver away game out of the sample too. That's only fair. I prefer to leave them in, since the games were both against good teams on the road.

This year's defense:

4.25ypc, 25th in the league

2003 defense:

5.17ypc, 32nd in the league

Better than bad does not equal good.

That's a fair analysis. A 1 ypc improvement is huge, btw. I'd still be interersted in a comparison of the last half of the year. Remember, the Chiefs had 6 new starters to start the year. It definitely takes some time to get players to gel.

All that being said, you are correct in your ypc assesment. That being said, I think it does say something when you finish in the top 10 in rush yards per game.

[Alphaman]

The result was the same in 2003. We did reasonably well stopping the run early in the season.

Eventually, you get exposed for what you really are. They did in 2003, and they did again this year.

They got exposed in the NY Giants game, but shut the other 7 teams down the last half of the season.

[Mecca]

That's a fair analysis. A 1 ypc improvement is huge, btw. I'd still be interersted in a comparison of the last half of the year. Remember, the Chiefs had 6 new starters to start the year. It definitely takes some time to get players to gel.

All that being said, you are correct in your ypc assesment. That being said, I think it does say something when you finish in the top 10 in rush yards per game.

It doesn't when teams are just chucking it all over the field on you.

[cdcox]

All this analysis of the run game is fine, but the fact that our secondary does not cover anyone down the field is inexcusable. While Palmer was in, he hit open receivers 3 times with pressure in his face. Kinta over threw everything, there by saving the D from further exposure. Without changes in coverage scheme and very likely secondary personnel we just don't have any chance of being a average defense.

[htismaqe]

That's a fair analysis. A 1 ypc improvement is huge, btw. I'd still be interersted in a comparison of the last half of the year. Remember, the Chiefs had 6 new starters to start the year. It definitely takes some time to get players to gel.

All that being said, you are correct in your ypc assesment. That being said, I think it does say something when you finish in the top 10 in rush yards per game.

Yes it does say something.

It says that you have a great offense that puts pressure on the other team to abandon the run.

It also say you have a piss poor pass defense.

[Alphaman]

It doesn't when teams are just chucking it all over the field on you.

Valid point. I just don't think that is the only reason. Remember this too:

The Chiefs were 4th in the league in defensive fumbles recovered with 15, and led the league with 33 forced fumbles. That is an indication of physical tackling.

[Alphaman]

All this analysis of the run game is fine, but the fact that our secondary does not cover anyone down the field is inexcusable. While Palmer was in, he hit open receivers 3 times with pressure in his face. Kinta over threw everything, there by saving the D from further exposure. Without changes in coverage scheme and very likely secondary personnel we just don't have any chance of being a average defense.


I go back to this on the pass defense:

If you remember Vermeil said he went to Gun and wanted him to not ask the CBs to do things they couldn't do. That was to match up one on one at the line of scrimmage. Vermeil wanted the guys to play 5 to 10 yards off the line to keep them from getting exposed. I think that is a major reason why the passing defense suffered. I think Surtain and Warfield can play press coverage. I don't think McCleon and Washington can. I also don't think Guinta and Dean can teach it. I think Herm prefers press coverage and will allow Gun to employ it. I think Henderson can teach it. I think Herm would allow Gun to get rid of McCleon.

That's alot of I thinks so it is just my speculation.

[Deberg_1990]

I really feel that Herm Edwards would be a decent choice for this team. He could be another Tony Dungy IMO. Basically Dungy came in and left the offense alone and rebuilt the defense. If Edwards does the same thing, who knows what could happen next year?

[cdcox]

I go back to this on the pass defense:

If you remember Vermeil said he went to Gun and wanted him to not ask the CBs to do things they couldn't do. That was to match up one on one at the line of scrimmage. Vermeil wanted the guys to play 5 to 10 yards off the line to keep them from getting exposed. I think that is a major reason why the passing defense suffered. I think Surtain and Warfield can play press coverage. I don't think McCleon and Washington can. I also don't think Guinta and Dean can teach it. I think Herm prefers press coverage and will allow Gun to employ it. I think Henderson can teach it. I think Herm would allow Gun to get rid of McCleon.

That's alot of I thinks so it is just my speculation.

IF that were true, and Gunther had prolonged shouting matches with Vermeil on multiple occasions but Vermiel held is ground, you might give Gunther a grade of incomplete. But before you give Gunther the grade of incomplete, you have to say that Vermeil was a blithering idiot who could not tell his dinner from his feces.

[FringeNC]

You're viewing head coaching wrong. It takes more than being a great coordinator to be a good head coach. Gregg Williams is an excellent DC, but I got a friend who's a Bills fan who'd tell you Herman Edwards smokes him as a head coach.

I'd agree with you in general....but I think the Chiefs are in a unique situation. Record-setting offenses over the past four years, and no defense. We have to get someone in here to straighten out the D.

[GOODBYECHEIFS]

Chiefs sucks ass..........

[Bwana]

Chiefs sucks ass..........

Run along retard.

[The Bad Guy]

I can't stand Herm Edwards. He's a rah-rah coach that continues to underachieve season after season after season. People can blame injuries, misfortunate, etc...on Edwards failures. The point is, I don't want him anywhere near Kansas City.

Underachieve?

Are you serious?

How has he been an underachiever? He has had his teams in the playoffs three out of five years - with the Patriots in the same division over that time.

I'm sorry, you can hate Herman Edwards all you want, but to hate him because he's an "underachiever" is pure and simple bullshit.

[The Bad Guy]

Chiefs sucks ass..........

It might help if you could spell Chiefs you ****ing retard.

[tk13]

I think his teams are usually pretty disciplined. The Jets are always one of the league leaders in fewest penalties. He is a rah-rah guy but I don't think his teams have anything close to the attitude/loose ship problems that a coach like Marucci seems to have. I think our guys would play hard for him.

I read a quote from Herm about that though, he's from a military background and all, but at the same time, he says people equate yelling=discipline... and how it doesn't always work that way, yelling can just equal... yelling.

[htismaqe]

I think his teams are usually pretty disciplined. The Jets are always one of the league leaders in fewest penalties. He is a rah-rah guy but I don't think his teams have anything close to the attitude/loose ship problems that a coach like Marucci seems to have. I think our guys would play hard for him.

I read a quote from Herm about that though, he's from a military background and all, but at the same time, he says people equate yelling=discipline... and how it doesn't always work that way, yelling can just equal... yelling.

That makes me feel better.

And he validates how I feel about Gunther.

[Hammock Parties]

Herm would keep Gunther.

[Hammock Parties]

Speaking of Gunther, looks like he wants to be head coach:

http://www.cjonline.com/photogalleries/2006/01/02_chiefs/images/05.jpg

[htismaqe]

Herm would keep Gunther.

There's zero factual evidence to support that.

[Hammock Parties]

There's zero factual evidence to support that.

C'mon. They are part of Marty's good ole boys network. I don't see a logical reason to think it wouldn't happen.

Wasn't Herm Gunthers DBs coach? If so, that is hilarious if he were to actually come here as head coach.

[htismaqe]

C'mon. They are part of Marty's good ole boys network. I don't see a logical reason to think it wouldn't happen.

Wasn't Herm Gunthers DBs coach? If so, that is hilarious if he were to actually come here as head coach.

Sure, there's a speculative connection there. But to say Herm WOULD retain Gunther, well that's a speculative connection.

[mlyonsd]

Speaking of Gunther, looks like he wants to be head coach:

http://www.cjonline.com/photogalleries/2006/01/02_chiefs/images/05.jpg

LOL, that struck me kinda funny.

[Alphaman]

Sure, there's a speculative connection there. But to say Herm WOULD retain Gunther, well that's a speculative connection.

As much as htismaqe and I disagree, I'm inclined to agree with him on this one. I think Herm would consider bringing Donnie Henderson with him to be his DC. Of course I think it would make the defensive staff much stronger if he kept Gun as DC, brought Henderson as his DB coach and brought his DB coach as an assistant DB coach.

Demotions yes, but a demotion is better than no job.

To htismaqe point, Gun would have to change his style from yelling to coaching and motivating. I think Herm would give him the freedom (and personnel) to play press coverage with the CBs (i.e. no McCleon).

[siberian khatru]

Gun would have to change his style from yelling to coaching and motivating.

Heh. Guess I'm not the only one.

[the Talking Can]

Herms and his DC use the Tampa Cover 2...i think...I'm not sure if that would translate into our CBs playing more press coverage...

[RedThat]

ROFL

This is funny, I just thought Id mention, we're all talking about Herm as if he is going to be here. Meanwhile, nothing shows, there is no word about the Jets talking about him being outta town.