Why wouldn't Herm retain Gun

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

after seeing first hand what Gun's defense is capable of doing ? Our defense totally destroyed the Jets in week one. I remember after that game seeing part of Herms press conference and he stated that they couldn't stop our D. He was about to cry. Just a thought! Plus they're both of German heritage with Military type mindsets. I think somehow they might even be related.

[jidar]

In before our D's rank gets quoted.

[Chiefnj]

I think it is a big picture/little picture type analysis.

The two names thrown around the most are Gunther and Marinelli. I'm going to assume that if Gun is kept as DC he will continue with his attacking style D, and that Marinelli would implement some type of cover 2 that he is familiar with.

Short term picture. If the goal is to build off the modest success of the D this past year, it might be better to keep Gunther. Keep the system the same, let the players get comfortable with it for another year and let Herm have some influence over the players and keep them motivated on road games.

Long term picture. The Chiefs don't really have the personnel right now for a cover 2. If they switch schemes this offseason the D will probably even regress a little. A new scheme may be preferable in the long run, but you risk wasting the last years of Green, Roaf, Shields, Richardson, etc.

[dirk digler]

Because he sucks donkey balls

[harpes]

They are too much alike in alot of ways but they have total diffent philosphy. Gun has been able to run whatever he pleases and isnt the type that would like being second guess by Herm. Herm has a strong D background.

[TNTEICHER]

I'd love to keep him as a linebacker coach -- but not DC. I think the players tend to tune hime out during the year.

[Hammock Parties]

Gun has been able to run whatever he pleases and isnt the type that would like being second guess by Herm.

Are you kidding me? Gunther has shown time and again he is spineless.

[4th and Long]

Are you kidding me? Gunther has shown time and again he is spineless.
I'm glad you feel this way because the following should make you ecstatic.

ESPN radio was reporting, all day long yesterday, that Herm has every intention of retaining Gunther as the defensive coordinator.

Have a nice day! :)

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

19 of the last 20 games have not allowed a 100 yard back. Gun is 2 players away from putting this D in the top 5. ALL we need is a pass rush and That will fix our secondary.

[Fish]

Long term picture. The Chiefs don't really have the personnel right now for a cover 2. If they switch schemes this offseason the D will probably even regress a little. A new scheme may be preferable in the long run, but you risk wasting the last years of Green, Roaf, Shields, Richardson, etc.

Agreed.... this is the most important point. I'm anxious to see what happens with this. It seems right now that Herm and Gun would rub each other the wrong way, but Herm knows people want results ASAP. I know change is needed, but I'm not so sure about what change is necessary. What results would we see if Gun was allowed to hire his own asst.?

This should be interesting..............

[Fish]

Ohh and I think hiring Marinelli would be a very good start to fixing the pass rush issue...............

[Hoover]

I think it is a big picture/little picture type analysis.

The two names thrown around the most are Gunther and Marinelli. I'm going to assume that if Gun is kept as DC he will continue with his attacking style D, and that Marinelli would implement some type of cover 2 that he is familiar with.

Short term picture. If the goal is to build off the modest success of the D this past year, it might be better to keep Gunther. Keep the system the same, let the players get comfortable with it for another year and let Herm have some influence over the players and keep them motivated on road games.

Long term picture. The Chiefs don't really have the personnel right now for a cover 2. If they switch schemes this offseason the D will probably even regress a little. A new scheme may be preferable in the long run, but you risk wasting the last years of Green, Roaf, Shields, Richardson, etc.
Sir that makes to much sense, how dare you post something like that on the Planet!

[The Bad Guy]

19 of the last 20 games have not allowed a 100 yard back. Gun is 2 players away from putting this D in the top 5. ALL we need is a pass rush and That will fix our secondary.

That's all any team needs is a pass rush - the problem is finding one.

Gunther got the guys he wanted last year.

He got his shutdown corner, and what does he do? Lines him up 10 yards off the LOS and doesn't put him on the other team's best receiver.

He got his wrecking ball in Kendrell Bell. What does he do? Register the 9th most tackles on the team.

He got his "teacher on the field" Sammy Knight. While he was OK, he never wowed me.

So now Gunther needs more guys?

In that Giants game, were you at anytime confident that the Chiefs were going to stop Barber? How bout the Philly game with TO?

I had zero confidence we would.

I want a DC I can have faith in. I've lost all of mine in Gun.

[htismaqe]

I'd just like to interject that anybody that's expecting the defense to improve next year with Gunther at the helm is expecting something that's never happened before in Gunther's coaching career.

His defenses have never improved in 2 consecutive years.

[htismaqe]

19 of the last 20 games have not allowed a 100 yard back. Gun is 2 players away from putting this D in the top 5. ALL we need is a pass rush and That will fix our secondary.

Yep, he's 2 players away.

Too bad those players are Neil Smith and Derrick Thomas.

[redfan]

Gun isn't going anywhere.
Just wait until the draft!

[htismaqe]

Gun isn't going anywhere.
Just wait until the draft!

Yeah, we need another Junior Siavii in a bad way...

[Frankie]

after seeing first hand what Gun's defense is capable of doing ? Our defense totally destroyed the Jets in week one. I remember after that game seeing part of Herms press conference and he stated that they couldn't stop our D. He was about to cry. Just a thought! Plus they're both of German heritage with Military type mindsets. I think somehow they might even be related.
Yeah Edwards really LOOKS German too. :hmmm:

[Frankie]

19 of the last 20 games have not allowed a 100 yard back. Gun is 2 players away from putting this D in the top 5. ALL we need is a pass rush and That will fix our secondary.
EG-freaking-ZACTLY!

[RedThat]

Long term picture. The Chiefs don't really have the personnel right now for a cover 2. If they switch schemes this offseason the D will probably even regress a little. A new scheme may be preferable in the long run, but you risk wasting the last years of Green, Roaf, Shields, Richardson, etc.

Um, not necessarily....They dont have the Defensive line to play a cover 2.

That's what needs work, our line. I do think our LB's w/ the exception of Bell, may be suitable for a cover 2.

Surtain, and Warfield can both play zone.

My point is, I don't think changing schemes is going to necessarily involve a major defensive overhaul in personnel. It may involve 2,3 players imo.

[htismaqe]

Um, not necessarily....They dont have the Defensive line to play a cover 2.

That's what needs work, our line. I do think our LB's w/ the exception of Bell, may be suitable for a cover 2.

Surtain, and Warfield can both play zone.

My point is, I don't think changing schemes is going to necessarily involve a major defensive overhaul in personnel. It may involve 2,3 players imo.

The idea we don't have the defensive line is, IMO, pure bunk.

We need better coaching.

[Chris Meck]

Ok, I've always liked Gun as a defensive coordinator. Obviously, things didn't work out like we'd hoped, but I think there are several reasons-not making excuses, but...

the differences in Robinson's scheme and Gun's scheme are immense. Not only in attitude (although this is huge) but in personnel required to adequately run them.

Robinson's scheme, if given the proper personnel can work. You need SPEED and ball awareness in your secondary/LB corps. Smaller, quicker players. That big cushion is intended to lure the QB to throw, so the CB/S/LB can break to the ball and separate the ball from the receiver. The idea is to keep the play in front of you and stop the completion at the receiver. Problem was, GRob inherited Gun-scheme type players both physically and mentally so it never worked. 3 years of Grob turning the personnell over into his type of players have left us with personnel that don't quite fit either scheme YET. We have a mishmash of personnel whose skills don't quite mesh.

Gun always liked big, physical secondary players (Mighty Mouse was an aberration due to Carter's legal woes and injury problems) and an aggressive, attacking LB corps paired with an intense pass rush. Grob left the cupboard fairly bare for Gun in this regard.

The situation COULD have been remedied had Sims been able to remain healthy and become the dominant DT that he was projected to, but that hasn't happened. You COULD blame the front office for taking him, but every other team had him rated very high as well; so I don't. It's not like he was considered a reach. He just hasn't panned out. The only consistent pass rush threat we have is Allen; and he can't do it by himself. We need another skilled pass rusher to bookend with him, and we need more consistent interior line play. IF we could get a quality pass rush from our front four, THEN we could play tighter man coverage with our corners. The reason we don't man up and play bump and run is twofold:
1. current NFL policy is call contact very closely, so it's hard to play that way in the first place. and
2. You MUST have an effective pass rush or you're hanging your corners out to dry. Man coverage will eventually break down on a play if the QB has time to wait for his receivers to gain separation-which they WILL eventually since they know where they're going, and the corner can only react once they're 5 yards down field. Hence, the 'cushion' and more zone coverages.

I submit that Gun ran more zone (and loose-ish zone) because he HAD to, not because he WANTED to. Our line play was too inconsistent to really get aggressive in the secondary.

Surtain and Knight were good pick-ups. Bell, it appears, was not. He SHOULD have been able to make the adjustment as he does possess the physical tools, he just didn't. Again, sometimes things work out, sometimes they don't. We signed 4 FA's last year; two worked out, two didn't. I say that's about right for any team to expect in one offseason.

I think we really ARE two guys away from being a top-notch defense. I think we are ONE stud defensive line player-be it a disruptive force at DT or a bookend pass rusher DE to play opposite Allen-and an OLB that can run and hit. For the record, I think Gun recognized that last offseason, but Bell and Hall didn't play up to expectations due to either injury or just plain poor play.

If we could get a solid pass rush without blitzing, we could man-up outside, and really force the issue.

I hope they keep Gun and try again to get him what he needs. If Abraham wanted to be a Chief, that'd be one of your problem areas addressed.

Chris

[Chiefnj]

Um, not necessarily....They dont have the Defensive line to play a cover 2.

That's what needs work, our line. I do think our LB's w/ the exception of Bell, may be suitable for a cover 2.

Surtain, and Warfield can both play zone.

My point is, I don't think changing schemes is going to necessarily involve a major defensive overhaul in personnel. It may involve 2,3 players imo.

You are talking about the DL, the safeties and Bell. That's a pretty major overhaul. Plus, the team has a lot of money invested in Surtain to play him in a cover 2.

[BigChiefFan]

The idea we don't have the defensive line is, IMO, pure bunk.

We need better coaching.I agree that we need BETTER coaching, but I don't blame that on Gunther-he got to CHOOSE ONE coach-Pagac. The rest were Vermeil's and Robinson's cronies.

I also think we could use an UPGRADE on the D-line. Dalton is a solid, but AVERAGE player. Browning is average at best these days. Sims could become better than average, but has yet to show it. I also think Hicks is a solid player, but not a great pass-rusher. Allen is just the opposite-a great pass rusher, not needs alot of work on his run support.

[htismaqe]

I agree that we need BETTER coaching, but I don't blame that on Gunther-he got to CHOOSE ONE coach-Pagac. The rest were Vermeil's and Robinson's cronies.

I also think we could use an UPGRADE on the D-line. Dalton is a solid, but AVERAGE player. Browning is average at best these days. Sims could become better than average, but has yet to show it. I also think Hicks is a solid player, but not a great pass-rusher. Allen is just the opposite-a great pass rusher, not needs alot of work on his run support.

The coaches excuse is just that, an excuse.

He's worked with every one of them before, except for Guinta, and nobody forced him to come back here if he wasn't gonna have any say in his coaches.

He's got nobody to balme but himself.

As for the d-line, I think we need one more DT. Otherwise, there's quite a few defenses out there that do CONSIDERABLY better with about the same DL talent.

[htismaqe]

You are talking about the DL, the safeties and Bell. That's a pretty major overhaul. Plus, the team has a lot of money invested in Surtain to play him in a cover 2.

Surtain can play Cover 2, especially if they play Cover 2 with press man on the outside.

Cover 2 affects the safeties much more so than the CB's.

[Chiefnj]

Surtain can play Cover 2, especially if they play Cover 2 with press man on the outside.

Cover 2 affects the safeties much more so than the CB's.

My point with Surtain was that the Chiefs didn't have to pursue a top 5 corner and pay for a top 5 corner if they are going to run a cover 2.

[lefty634]

My first post here but I have been reading your thoughts for a long time. Sure seems like the offense is perfect and defense is the problem but I saw an offense that didn't score but 3 points on Buffalo. The numbers say this defense allows 20.5 points a game. If the offense is playing like they can and should they should score a TD a quarter. You can win with those numbers. Offense scored 25.2 points a game defense allowed 20.3. Fire and heart are the only thing missing (ok a player or two) and I think that comes from the head coach.........my question is Is Herm the answer?
Guess time will tell

[The Bad Guy]

Ok, I've always liked Gun as a defensive coordinator. Obviously, things didn't work out like we'd hoped, but I think there are several reasons-not making excuses, but...

the differences in Robinson's scheme and Gun's scheme are immense. Not only in attitude (although this is huge) but in personnel required to adequately run them.

Robinson's scheme, if given the proper personnel can work. You need SPEED and ball awareness in your secondary/LB corps. Smaller, quicker players. That big cushion is intended to lure the QB to throw, so the CB/S/LB can break to the ball and separate the ball from the receiver. The idea is to keep the play in front of you and stop the completion at the receiver. Problem was, GRob inherited Gun-scheme type players both physically and mentally so it never worked. 3 years of Grob turning the personnell over into his type of players have left us with personnel that don't quite fit either scheme YET. We have a mishmash of personnel whose skills don't quite mesh.

Gun always liked big, physical secondary players (Mighty Mouse was an aberration due to Carter's legal woes and injury problems) and an aggressive, attacking LB corps paired with an intense pass rush. Grob left the cupboard fairly bare for Gun in this regard.

The situation COULD have been remedied had Sims been able to remain healthy and become the dominant DT that he was projected to, but that hasn't happened. You COULD blame the front office for taking him, but every other team had him rated very high as well; so I don't. It's not like he was considered a reach. He just hasn't panned out. The only consistent pass rush threat we have is Allen; and he can't do it by himself. We need another skilled pass rusher to bookend with him, and we need more consistent interior line play. IF we could get a quality pass rush from our front four, THEN we could play tighter man coverage with our corners. The reason we don't man up and play bump and run is twofold:
1. current NFL policy is call contact very closely, so it's hard to play that way in the first place. and
2. You MUST have an effective pass rush or you're hanging your corners out to dry. Man coverage will eventually break down on a play if the QB has time to wait for his receivers to gain separation-which they WILL eventually since they know where they're going, and the corner can only react once they're 5 yards down field. Hence, the 'cushion' and more zone coverages.





That's crazy talk. These guys are paid professional athletes. I'm sick of hearing how they couldn't get G-Rob's system out of their head like they came out of the womb being trained in it.

Good lord almighty. The Broncos fired Robinson and brought in Ray Rhodes and you didn't hear these excuses.

We have 4 holdovers from G-Rob's system. Mitchell didn't experience any Robinson setbacks. Sims got hurt, Wesley and Hicks were both players that were taught by Gunther.

We have a bunch of Gunther apologists that need to pull out every excuse in the book why our defense was 25th in the NFL last year after he got his guys.

It's freaking two years later and we are still using Greg Robinson as an excuse.

How lovely.

You know what? I see the Broncos running press coverage and they didn't have a great pass rush. The Chiefs knew what their D-line was going to look like before the Surtain trade. They knew who they had and what they had to work with and what do they do?

They use a guy who has been a man-to-man career corner and put him in zone. They don't put him on the team's best receiver and they neutralize his true talents.

That's coaching. That's god awful coaching and Gunther, not the NFL's rules on contact, not Greg Robinson, Gunther.

Someone has to take the fall and I'm sick of the buck being passed to a guy who hasn't been here in two years.



I think we really ARE two guys away from being a top-notch defense. I think we are ONE stud defensive line player-be it a disruptive force at DT or a bookend pass rusher DE to play opposite Allen-and an OLB that can run and hit. For the record, I think Gun recognized that last offseason, but Bell and Hall didn't play up to expectations due to either injury or just plain poor play.

If we could get a solid pass rush without blitzing, we could man-up outside, and really force the issue.

I hope they keep Gun and try again to get him what he needs. If Abraham wanted to be a Chief, that'd be one of your problem areas addressed.

Chris

You're right. We are two guys. As Parker said, DT and Neil Smith. If only it was the mid 90's again.

We got him what this team needed. He submitted a list of his own players that he wanted because he said we could completely turn the defense around.

Sorry, I also don't want John Abraham on this team either. Putting him with Allen is a running back and offensive lines dream. He also sat out the playoffs because he was too worried about his payday.

The Chiefs got Gunther what he needed. He failed. Move on and let someone else take a shot at it. I want a coordinator that won't just talk a big game, I want him to follow through.

[htismaqe]

My point with Surtain was that the Chiefs didn't have to pursue a top 5 corner and pay for a top 5 corner if they are going to run a cover 2.

That is true. Surtain is certainly overkill for the Tampa-style Cover 2.

[RedThat]

The idea we don't have the defensive line is, IMO, pure bunk.

We need better coaching.


ROFL

Dude, cmon....the defensive line stinks

I do agree with you on the coaching part, but, we can place all the emphasis and blame on coaching. It's players too.

Lets face it, aside from Allen, I wouldn't even take most of those guys on my team....Maybe as backups thats it.

We dont have quality starters. Its simple.

[htismaqe]

ROFL

Dude, cmon....the defensive line stinks

I do agree with you on the coaching part, but, we can place all the emphasis and blame on coaching. It's players too.

Lets face it, aside from Allen, I wouldn't even take most of those guys on my team....Maybe as backups thats it.

We dont have quality starters. Its simple.

Dude, come on.

Chris Hovan is a Ryan Sims clone. He was nothing but a lazy underachiever in Minnesota, so much so that they spent ANOTHER high 1st-round on Williams.

Booger McFarland is a solid, unspectacular player.

Simeon Rice is a playmaker, but his numbers aren't appreciably better than Allen.

And Hicks sucks, but how does he compare to Greg freaking Spires?

Face it, we don't have a quality defensive coordinator. It's simple.

[Amnorix]

I can't imagine why KC would keep Gun, actually.

1. Herm had a severe problem with the Jets his first 2-3 years because his DC had a fundamentally different philosophy. It seems ot me that Gun and Herm are the same way.

2. KC's defense hasn't exactly been so stellar over the last two years that Gun is inviolate, like Monte Kiffin with the Bucs or Gregg Williams with the 'skins.

[Lzen]

19 of the last 20 games have not allowed a 100 yard back. Gun is 2 players away from putting this D in the top 5. ALL we need is a pass rush and That will fix our secondary.

I love how people always use this stat. The only problem is that it is a little deceiving. A more accurate stat would be to look up what the yards per carry were for teams in all those game. Then you might have a little different view. Yes, the rush defense has improved. But not as much as that stat suggests. And the overall defense needs to improve a lot.

[RedThat]

You are talking about the DL, the safeties and Bell. That's a pretty major overhaul. Plus, the team has a lot of money invested in Surtain to play him in a cover 2.

Sorry, I forgot to mention, we do have Keyaron Fox. I liked what I saw from him in the pre-season. we also have Kris Griffin, Shawn Barber is still here....All of those guys are better options than Bell if we are going to run a cover 2.

At least those guys got some coverage ability.

Sammy Knight can play a cover 2. Wesley is a bit questionable. But I will say, even if Gun is or was to be retained....You dont think we'd still see a bit of an overhaul?

[htismaqe]

I can't imagine why KC would keep Gun, actually.

1. Herm had a severe problem with the Jets his first 2-3 years because his DC had a fundamentally different philosophy. It seems ot me that Gun and Herm are the same way.

2. KC's defense hasn't exactly been so stellar over the last two years that Gun is inviolate, like Monte Kiffin with the Bucs or Gregg Williams with the 'skins.

That right there should tell us all something.

The ONLY people that think Gunther should be kept are CHIEFS FANS.

[Lzen]

In that Giants game, were you at anytime confident that the Chiefs were going to stop Barber?

Actually, I would say yes, early in the game. At one point Tiki Barber had something like 12 carries for 24 yards. I don't know wtf happened after that.
:shake:

[Rain Man]

Robinson's scheme, if given the proper personnel can work. You need SPEED and ball awareness in your secondary/LB corps. Smaller, quicker players. That big cushion is intended to lure the QB to throw, so the CB/S/LB can break to the ball and separate the ball from the receiver. The idea is to keep the play in front of you and stop the completion at the receiver. Problem was, GRob inherited Gun-scheme type players both physically and mentally so it never worked. 3 years of Grob turning the personnell over into his type of players have left us with personnel that don't quite fit either scheme YET. We have a mishmash of personnel whose skills don't quite mesh.



Yeah, and Hitler built the Autobahn, yet never gets credit for it.

[KCTitus]

The Chiefs got Gunther what he needed. He failed. Move on and let someone else take a shot at it. I want a coordinator that won't just talk a big game, I want him to follow through.

Bad Guy's onto something...even dating back to the Marty years, the defense had a way of letting down in big games. I think that could be attributed to Gun, Im leaning toward wholesale changes in the defensive staff.

[RedThat]

Dude, come on.

Chris Hovan is a Ryan Sims clone. He was nothing but a lazy underachiever in Minnesota, so much so that they spent ANOTHER high 1st-round on Williams.

Booger McFarland is a solid, unspectacular player.

Simeon Rice is a playmaker, but his numbers aren't appreciably better than Allen.

And Hicks sucks, but how does he compare to Greg freaking Spires?

Face it, we don't have a quality defensive coordinator. It's simple.

Ok I'll weight this out:

Hovan sucks. Hovan vs. Sims.....Um, it's pretty even.

Simeon Rice IS better than Jared Allen.

Booger McFarland IS better than Dalton.

Spires vs. Hicks....Hmmm.....that is pretty even.

Coaching...Karmelowicz, Hairston vs. Marinelli..Marinelli

It's both coaching and players.

[htismaqe]

Ok I'll weight this out:

Hovan sucks. Hovan vs. Sims.....Um, it's pretty even.

Simeon Rice IS better than Jared Allen.

Booger McFarland IS better than Dalton.

Spires vs. Hicks....Hmmm.....that is pretty even.

Coaching...Karmelowicz, Hairston vs. Marinelli..Marinelli

It's both coaching and players.

I posted this in another thread.

Allen compares favorably to Rice - he's at least 75% of the player Rice is.

Brooks is a HoFer, but DJ can be everything Brooks is - he's an almost identical type of player.

The piece we lack is Booger McFarland.

What I'm saying is this:

We have 75% of the talent that Tampa Bay has. If coaching were equal, it would stand to reason that our results would be 75% of theirs.

They're TWENTY FIVE percent of Tampa's results. That's a HUGE gap.

[Lbedrock1]

Ohh and I think hiring Marinelli would be a very good start to fixing the pass rush issue...............
You are right because Marinelli will personally rush the QB on every down.
Last I checked Marinelli has 0 sacks and 0 pressures. It is about the players.

[Boozer76]

I think it is a big picture/little picture type analysis.

The two names thrown around the most are Gunther and Marinelli. I'm going to assume that if Gun is kept as DC he will continue with his attacking style D, and that Marinelli would implement some type of cover 2 that he is familiar with.

Short term picture. If the goal is to build off the modest success of the D this past year, it might be better to keep Gunther. Keep the system the same, let the players get comfortable with it for another year and let Herm have some influence over the players and keep them motivated on road games.

Long term picture. The Chiefs don't really have the personnel right now for a cover 2. If they switch schemes this offseason the D will probably even regress a little. A new scheme may be preferable in the long run, but you risk wasting the last years of Green, Roaf, Shields, Richardson, etc.

Here's the problem. Herm did the same thing in NY. He took a 3-4 pressure D and tried to implement a 4-3 cover 2 D (all the while with Teddy Cotrell, who was a 3-4 DC). He had all the wrong pieces to implelment a 4-3, yet he did it anyway. Long term, we were continually one of the worst D's in the league until Donnie Henderson came here and used alot more 3-4 pressure over the cover 2.

[htismaqe]

You are right because Marinelli will personally rush the QB on every down.
Last I checked Marinelli has 0 sacks and 0 pressures. It is about the players.

ROFL

[Brock]

I posted this in another thread.

Allen compares favorably to Rice - he's at least 75% of the player Rice is.

Brooks is a HoFer, but DJ can be everything Brooks is - he's an almost identical type of player.

The piece we lack is Booger McFarland.

What I'm saying is this:

We have 75% of the talent that Tampa Bay has. If coaching were equal, it would stand to reason that our results would be 75% of theirs.

They're TWENTY FIVE percent of Tampa's results. That's a HUGE gap.

I would say that if you're not within 5 to 10 percent talent wise, that's a huge gap. There isn't that much difference between any two NFL teams talentwise. But other teams do capitalize on that weakness, as much as they do a cornerback who's a tenth of a second slower.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

For those of you that say Dt and Niel Smith are what we're lacking are exactly right. Back in the 90's our D was awesome when we had those two together and that's all we need now. Nobody can run on us as it is. When we get a little more push off the edge and up in the QB's face our secondary will look like a different group of people. Two players away, thats all. Gun knows it, Peterson knows it and we'll get them this offseason. You watch.

[htismaqe]

I would say that if you're not within 5 to 10 percent talent wise, that's a huge gap. There isn't that much difference between any two NFL teams talentwise. But other teams do capitalize on that weakness, as much as they do a cornerback who's a tenth of a second slower.

So we're just gonna continue to allow Gunther to fail because it's never his fault?

We went out and spent more free agent money than any other team in football last year.

EVERY player we acquired was one Gunther wanted. We acquired not one, but two former DRoY. We acquired one of the top 4 or 5 CB's in the game.

We finished 25th on defense.

I just don't understand. I've never worked for a business that would allow such a thing.

[brent102fire]

19 of the last 20 games have not allowed a 100 yard back. Gun is 2 players away from putting this D in the top 5. ALL we need is a pass rush and That will fix our secondary.

:clap: :thumb: :toast:

[Brock]

For those of you that say Dt and Niel Smith are what we're lacking are exactly right. Back in the 90's our D was awesome when we had those two together and that's all we need now. Nobody can run on us as it is. When we get a little more push off the edge and up in the QB's face our secondary will look like a different group of people. Two players away, thats all. Gun knows it, Peterson knows it and we'll get them this offseason. You watch.

You're nuts. Do you know how bad the Chiefs had to be to be able to draft high enough to get those two to begin with?

[htismaqe]

For those of you that say Dt and Niel Smith are what we're lacking are exactly right. Back in the 90's our D was awesome when we had those two together and that's all we need now. Nobody can run on us as it is. When we get a little more push off the edge and up in the QB's face our secondary will look like a different group of people. Two players away, thats all. Gun knows it, Peterson knows it and we'll get them this offseason. You watch.

ROFL

Yeah, let's just run out an buy a Hall of Fame OLB and a big-time DE. Perhaps Bill Parcells could give you the 800 number that he used to acquire his QB.

As for the MYTH that nobody can run on us - just because nobody TRIED to run on us, doesn't mean that nobody COULD. The teams that actually TRIED put up BIG yards on us. We gave up 4.1 yards per carry.

[brent102fire]

Rankings do not mean jack! Numbers are for nerds! What matters is whether your D did enough to win the game on that particular day. I think the Chiefs should have beat the Eagles, Bills and Cowboys. I think the Offense failed during the Eagles and Bills game. The D played pretty well given the cirucumstances. The Cowboys game, I think both sides of the ball tanked a few times. The D had a 2 games they got smoked in: at Denver and at NY. Other than that, I think they did a pretty damn good job without a consistent pass rush. New DT's and a new DE and I think the D will be set. Keep Gun! :clap:

[Fish]

You are right because Marinelli will personally rush the QB on every down.
Last I checked Marinelli has 0 sacks and 0 pressures. It is about the players.

That statement is inconceivably retarded.

If it's all about the players, then why do we pay coaches?

Is Ditka in the HOF because of the players?

Seriously dude...........

[htismaqe]

Rankings do not mean jack! Numbers are for nerds! What matters is whether your D did enough to win the game on that particular day. I think the Chiefs should have beat the Eagles, Bills and Cowboys. I think the Offense failed during the Eagles and Bills game. The D played pretty well given the cirucumstances. The Cowboys game, I think both sides of the ball tanked a few times. The D had a 2 games they got smoked in: at Denver and at NY. Other than that, I think they did a pretty damn good job without a consistent pass rush. New DT's and a new DE and I think the D will be set. Keep Gun! :clap:

ROFL

Keep believing!

Here's to 4 more years with no playoff wins!

Chiefs fans, 2003:

"Just get Gunther and we'll be set. Eric Hicks had 14 sacks under Gunther, we're set."

Chiefs fans, 2004:

"Just get Gunther a new CB and a new MLB and we'll be set."

Chiefs fans, 2005:

"Just get Gunther a DE and another DT and we'll be set."

What's the excuse gonna be next year, when he fails again?

ROFL

[Brock]

So we're just gonna continue to allow Gunther to fail because it's never his fault.

No, I blame Gunther almost as much as you do. I do believe the Chiefs talent on defense was good enough to be at least in the top half of the league by any measure. Considering the offense we had, it is criminal that this team didn't accomplish a lot more than they did.

[htismaqe]

That's crazy talk. These guys are paid professional athletes. I'm sick of hearing how they couldn't get G-Rob's system out of their head like they came out of the womb being trained in it.

Good lord almighty. The Broncos fired Robinson and brought in Ray Rhodes and you didn't hear these excuses.

We have 4 holdovers from G-Rob's system. Mitchell didn't experience any Robinson setbacks. Sims got hurt, Wesley and Hicks were both players that were taught by Gunther.

We have a bunch of Gunther apologists that need to pull out every excuse in the book why our defense was 25th in the NFL last year after he got his guys.

It's freaking two years later and we are still using Greg Robinson as an excuse.

How lovely.

You know what? I see the Broncos running press coverage and they didn't have a great pass rush. The Chiefs knew what their D-line was going to look like before the Surtain trade. They knew who they had and what they had to work with and what do they do?

They use a guy who has been a man-to-man career corner and put him in zone. They don't put him on the team's best receiver and they neutralize his true talents.

That's coaching. That's god awful coaching and Gunther, not the NFL's rules on contact, not Greg Robinson, Gunther.

Someone has to take the fall and I'm sick of the buck being passed to a guy who hasn't been here in two years.





You're right. We are two guys. As Parker said, DT and Neil Smith. If only it was the mid 90's again.

We got him what this team needed. He submitted a list of his own players that he wanted because he said we could completely turn the defense around.

Sorry, I also don't want John Abraham on this team either. Putting him with Allen is a running back and offensive lines dream. He also sat out the playoffs because he was too worried about his payday.

The Chiefs got Gunther what he needed. He failed. Move on and let someone else take a shot at it. I want a coordinator that won't just talk a big game, I want him to follow through.

I also agree on John Abraham.

[The Bad Guy]

For those of you that say Dt and Niel Smith are what we're lacking are exactly right. Back in the 90's our D was awesome when we had those two together and that's all we need now. Nobody can run on us as it is. When we get a little more push off the edge and up in the QB's face our secondary will look like a different group of people. Two players away, thats all. Gun knows it, Peterson knows it and we'll get them this offseason. You watch.

So basically Gun needs 2 all-pros that can rush the passer and cover someone and then we'll have a great defense?

Couldn't you say the same for every defense?

Jesus. Just listening to his apologists makes me sick to my stomach.

[The Bad Guy]

Rankings do not mean jack! Numbers are for nerds! What matters is whether your D did enough to win the game on that particular day. I think the Chiefs should have beat the Eagles, Bills and Cowboys. I think the Offense failed during the Eagles and Bills game. The D played pretty well given the cirucumstances. The Cowboys game, I think both sides of the ball tanked a few times. The D had a 2 games they got smoked in: at Denver and at NY. Other than that, I think they did a pretty damn good job without a consistent pass rush. New DT's and a new DE and I think the D will be set. Keep Gun! :clap:

The O tanked against the Cowboys? Didn't they have over 400 yards of O?

Should have, could have = Didn't.

You're right. The Chiefs should have beaten the Cowboys and Eagles. It's too bad that the defense couldn't stop anyone.

The only game on the O this year is the Bills.

[FringeNC]

You are right because Marinelli will personally rush the QB on every down.
Last I checked Marinelli has 0 sacks and 0 pressures. It is about the players.

Yeah, Charlie Weis sure improved the Notre Dame offense with all those TD passes he threw. Who knew he was such a great QB?

[The Bad Guy]

ROFL

Keep believing!

Here's to 4 more years with no playoff wins!

Chiefs fans, 2003:

"Just get Gunther and we'll be set. Eric Hicks had 14 sacks under Gunther, we're set."

Chiefs fans, 2004:

"Just get Gunther a new CB and a new MLB and we'll be set."

Chiefs fans, 2005:

"Just get Gunther a DE and another DT and we'll be set."

What's the excuse gonna be next year, when he fails again?

ROFL

The pattern is disgusting.

Every year, a new excuse.

And some posters question Carl's excuses?

They provide plenty of them right here.

[MichaelH]

That right there should tell us all something.

The ONLY people that think Gunther should be kept are CHIEFS FANS.

Exactly! :clap:

[Hammock Parties]

On the Abraham issue, I think he would be a fine fit if we switched to the Cover 2 defense.

Tampa and Indy both feature smallish defensive ends and it seems to work OK for them.

[Logical]

That right there should tell us all something.

The ONLY people that think Gunther should be kept are CHIEFS FANS deceived by the greatness that DT and Neil Smith brought to the teams not Gunther.

I think this helps your statement. A ton of Chiefs fans are not deceived and many never were.

[Chief Faithful]

ROFL

Keep believing!

Here's to 4 more years with no playoff wins!

Chiefs fans, 2003:

"Just get Gunther and we'll be set. Eric Hicks had 14 sacks under Gunther, we're set."

Chiefs fans, 2004:

"Just get Gunther a new CB and a new MLB and we'll be set."

Chiefs fans, 2005:

"Just get Gunther a DE and another DT and we'll be set."

What's the excuse gonna be next year, when he fails again?

ROFL

No excuses, the defense improved in every meaningful way last year against a tough schedule. Yet, it is obvious the defense is still needs more talent on the DLine.

Last year Denver, with a very good defense ranked exactly where you want the Chiefs to be ranked, felt the need to over-haul the DLine. No excuses, they needed more talent and went after it.

The Chiefs are improving, but they still need more talent on DL.

[Frosty]

So people feel that if we can just get all-pros in every position, then Gunther will have the defense good again?

Who the hell wouldn't? :shrug:

[StcChief]

Gun can work the D if he gets help on DLine and releases
Woods, maybe Barber.

Good coach needing some more talent. Even if kept as LB coach he's good for the team.

[Coogs]

:shrug:

Because he wants a good defense maybe? That would be my guess.

[Rausch]

I'd love to see Capers here as DC, but I don't want to see us can Gun and promote one of the D-tards on staff now...

[Chief Faithful]

So people feel that if we can just get all-pros in every position, then Gunther will have the defense good again?

Who the hell wouldn't? :shrug:

That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying the talent two years ago was the worst in the NFL and in Chiefs history and it will take more than just a few players to correct. Everything is improving talent and performance, but the talent is still lacking with depth almost non-existance.

I, like most on this board, believes Gun needs to improve his staff. Outside of Gun and Pagac I'm not impressed with the defensive staff. I would like to see Herm retain those two and replace all the rest especially those coaching the DL and secondary.

I am please with the progress the defense is making, which showed improvement at almost every position, but they are still weak on the DL and in the secondary. LB play has improved night and day over the last year. Depth is poor.

People on this site gernally have been way too generous evaluating the talent on defense the last five years. Here is my evaluations of talent:

Grobs Last Year
Woods - Horrific, backups even worse
Wesley - Below Average, backups even worse
Warfield - Average
McLeon / Bartee - Horrific
Barber - Average
Mitchell - Terrible
Fujita - Below Average
Holliday - Terrible
Browning - Average
Sims - Terrible
Hicks - Below Average
Depth - none worth a crap

Guns This Year
Wesley - Improved, average
Knight - Improved, just above average
Surtain - Improved, just above average
Warfield - Improved, above average
DJ - Improved, many rookie mistakes, but top notch talent
Bell - Declined, horrific
Kawika - Improved, developed into top 4 MLB in AFC
Allen - Improved, good pass rush poor containment
Jelly / Sims - Improved, average
Browning - Consistant average
Hicks - Consistant below average
Depth - Improved to below average

Things are still poor although much improved. Gun deserves more time and support.

[Coogs]

Things are still poor although much improved. Gun deserves more time and support.

There in lies the 64 thousand dollar question. Edwards is on board for 4 years at this point. Does he invest in the same DC because some feel he deserves more time, or does he start from the get go with the DC he wants to build a defense he feels that is necessary to get to the Super Bowl?

Even though the offense is older, I feel it would be in the best overall interest of the Chiefs for Edwards to bring in the DC he wants now. In the long run, the defense will be better. In the short run.... next year.... it can not be much worse, and could be far better. Other DC's have taken defenses from the bottom to the top in 1 year. Carolina comes to mind a few years ago.

[htismaqe]

It's pretty obvious.

Gunther is fine.

All we need to do is go out and spend $40M every offseason to get him the players he needs...

[htismaqe]

That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying the talent two years ago was the worst in the NFL and in Chiefs history and it will take more than just a few players to correct. Everything is improving talent and performance, but the talent is still lacking with depth almost non-existance.

I, like most on this board, believes Gun needs to improve his staff. Outside of Gun and Pagac I'm not impressed with the defensive staff. I would like to see Herm retain those two and replace all the rest especially those coaching the DL and secondary.

I am please with the progress the defense is making, which showed improvement at almost every position, but they are still weak on the DL and in the secondary. LB play has improved night and day over the last year. Depth is poor.

People on this site gernally have been way too generous evaluating the talent on defense the last five years. Here is my evaluations of talent:

Grobs Last Year
Woods - Horrific, backups even worse
Wesley - Below Average, backups even worse
Warfield - Average
McLeon / Bartee - Horrific
Barber - Average
Mitchell - Terrible
Fujita - Below Average
Holliday - Terrible
Browning - Average
Sims - Terrible
Hicks - Below Average
Depth - none worth a crap

Guns This Year
Wesley - Improved, average
Knight - Improved, just above average
Surtain - Improved, just above average
Warfield - Improved, above average
DJ - Improved, many rookie mistakes, but top notch talent
Bell - Declined, horrific
Kawika - Improved, developed into top 4 MLB in AFC
Allen - Improved, good pass rush poor containment
Jelly / Sims - Improved, average
Browning - Consistant average
Hicks - Consistant below average
Depth - Improved to below average

Things are still poor although much improved. Gun deserves more time and support.

Not impressed with the staff? Gun retained that staff. Even if they were forced on him, he didn't have to come back here, especially if he knew up front he'd fail because of them.

And yes, people have been too generous. Some have also just been downright wrong. For example, look at yours.

[Chris Meck]

That's crazy talk. These guys are paid professional athletes. I'm sick of hearing how they couldn't get G-Rob's system out of their head like they came out of the womb being trained in it.

I'm not emphasizing the mental aspects, but the actual TYPE of athlete. Dexter McCleon was pretty good under G-Rob (at least the first year) but entirely incapable of playing Gun's style. Why? He's TOO SMALL. He's the WRONG PHYSICAL TYPE. See?


We have 4 holdovers from G-Rob's system. Mitchell didn't experience any Robinson setbacks. Sims got hurt, Wesley and Hicks were both players that were taught by Gunther.

Mitchell is a YOUNG PLAYER. It's clear that he's getting better all the time, entirely under Gun and Pagac. I don't consider him a guy that got screwed up by 'read and react' schemes. Sims has been hurt all the time. Wesley is a headcase, and Hicks is not a bad run defender, but is NOT a good pass rush end. DJ is another young player that we can expect to get better as well, and he was pretty good as a rookie. Jared Allen as well, for that matter.

It's freaking two years later and we are still using Greg Robinson as an excuse.

How lovely.

I'm not saying that Robinson is an excuse. I'm saying that the two types of schemes required such different skill sets and physical types that we've had the wrong type of player in too many spots for either to succeed. Robinson hadn't yet gotten a full line-up of HIS type of guys and now we're back to a Gun D, and he hasn't yet gotten a full line-up of HIS type of guys. Sometimes there's not much difference in schemes and what they require of players, sometimes there is. This is one of those cases where there is.

You know what? I see the Broncos running press coverage and they didn't have a great pass rush. The Chiefs knew what their D-line was going to look like before the Surtain trade. They knew who they had and what they had to work with and what do they do?

No, I don't think they did. I don't think they figured on playing the vast majority of the season without Sims (who you'd think they were counting on to fulfill his potential) and Hall (who'd been a good pass rusher in the past filling in for Kearse.)

They use a guy who has been a man-to-man career corner and put him in zone. They don't put him on the team's best receiver and they neutralize his true talents.

I agree that this has been the result. We disagree as to WHY. You think it was on purpose, I think it was by neccessity.


You're right. We are two guys. As Parker said, DT and Neil Smith. If only it was the mid 90's again.

you mean TWO BOOKEND PASS RUSHERS? yep. I contend that neither was ever as good as when they played together.

Sorry, I also don't want John Abraham on this team either. Putting him with Allen is a running back and offensive lines dream. He also sat out the playoffs because he was too worried about his payday.

I don't know anything about sitting out of the playoffs for a payday. Lots of teams have smallish ends and do just fine against the run. In fact, MOST defensive ends are considerably smaller than the OT's that line up across from them. With a high powered offense on our side, I'd take my chances against the run if the only problem was smallish ends.

The Chiefs got Gunther what he needed. He failed. Move on and let someone else take a shot at it. I want a coordinator that won't just talk a big game, I want him to follow through.

We were better this season. Still not good enough, but better nonetheless. Whether Gun goes or not is up to Edwards, but I do think Gun has the defense on the right track.

Chris

[Rausch]

It's pretty obvious.

Gunther is fine.

All we need to do is go out and spend $40M every offseason to get him the players he needs...

I know who I'd want, who would you like to replace him?

[htismaqe]

I know who I'd want, who would you like to replace him?

I'd take any of the assistants from Tampa, Chicago, Carolina, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Jacksonville, Green Bay, Washington, Dallas, Indy, the Jets, Denver, San Diego, Seattle, Miami, Philly, Atlanta, New England, the Giants, or Buffalo before I'd hire Gunther.

[Mecca]

That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying the talent two years ago was the worst in the NFL and in Chiefs history and it will take more than just a few players to correct. Everything is improving talent and performance, but the talent is still lacking with depth almost non-existance.

I, like most on this board, believes Gun needs to improve his staff. Outside of Gun and Pagac I'm not impressed with the defensive staff. I would like to see Herm retain those two and replace all the rest especially those coaching the DL and secondary.

I am please with the progress the defense is making, which showed improvement at almost every position, but they are still weak on the DL and in the secondary. LB play has improved night and day over the last year. Depth is poor.

People on this site gernally have been way too generous evaluating the talent on defense the last five years. Here is my evaluations of talent:

Grobs Last Year
Woods - Horrific, backups even worse
Wesley - Below Average, backups even worse
Warfield - Average
McLeon / Bartee - Horrific
Barber - Average
Mitchell - Terrible
Fujita - Below Average
Holliday - Terrible
Browning - Average
Sims - Terrible
Hicks - Below Average
Depth - none worth a crap

Guns This Year
Wesley - Improved, average
Knight - Improved, just above average
Surtain - Improved, just above average
Warfield - Improved, above average
DJ - Improved, many rookie mistakes, but top notch talent
Bell - Declined, horrific
Kawika - Improved, developed into top 4 MLB in AFC
Allen - Improved, good pass rush poor containment
Jelly / Sims - Improved, average
Browning - Consistant average
Hicks - Consistant below average
Depth - Improved to below average

Things are still poor although much improved. Gun deserves more time and support.


If you really think Surtain is just above average, I suggest you call Arrowhead. That would mean all the people who think he's a top 5 corner and the contract he has are ridiculous in your view...........

[Chief Faithful]

We were better this season. Still not good enough, but better nonetheless. Whether Gun goes or not is up to Edwards, but I do think Gun has the defense on the right track.

Chris

To me that is the bottom line.

[Coogs]

I'd take any of the assistants from Tampa, Chicago, Carolina, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Jacksonville, Green Bay, Washington, Dallas, Indy, the Jets, Denver, San Diego, Seattle, Miami, Philly, Atlanta, New England, the Giants, or Buffalo before I'd hire Gunther.


Add Mike Singletary from the 49ers to that list, and I concur!

[Chief Faithful]

If you really think Surtain is just above average, I suggest you call Arrowhead. That would mean all the people who think he's a top 5 corner and the contract he has are ridiculous in your view...........

Maybe it was the Guinta influence, but I wasn't particularly impressed with his play this season.

[Coogs]

Maybe it was the Guinta influence, but I wasn't particularly impressed with his play this season.

Guinta.... Is that like the French pronunciation of Gun?

[Chief Faithful]

Not impressed with the staff? Gun retained that staff. Even if they were forced on him, he didn't have to come back here, especially if he knew up front he'd fail because of them.



IMO it was the same thing that killed Gun the HC - inherited poor assistants whom he did not replace. Maybe someday we will learn why.

[Calcountry]

That right there should tell us all something.

The ONLY people that think Gunther should be kept are CHIEFS FANS.This exchange between you and Amno begged this question in my mind: IF Brady started sucking ass, like Bret Farve, would the Patriots put up with his chit for 2 whole fuggin seasons?