49ers New OC: Norv Turner

[booger]

49ers | Turner to be named offensive coordinator
Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:08:20 -0800

Matt Maiocco, of the Santa Rosa Press Democrat, reports the San Francisco 49ers will announce Tuesday, Jan. 17, that they have hired Norv Turner as their new offensive coordinator.

http://www.kffl.com/hotw/nfl

[Hammock Parties]

That's OK. Al is coming back.

[mlyonsd]

Thank God if this is true.

[Mecca]

I had heard he said he wanted to stay on the west coast, so I'm not surprised.

[booger]

I sure hope so.

At least Solari if not both.

[VonneMarie]

I really want Saunders back now...

[FringeNC]

I thought the 49ers were insistent last year that they were going back to their WCO roots. 49ers abandoning the WCO again after 1 year.....Bill Walsh can't be pleased.

[Mecca]

Saunders isn't coming back........he swallowed his pride for his buddy Vermiel. He isn't going to do it now.

[chief52]

I had heard he said he wanted to stay on the west coast, so I'm not surprised.

Yes, he grew up in the bay area so it makes sense.

I hope Edwards can get Saunders back. It would work I believe. Give him the offense and leave him alone.

[Ralphy Boy]

Saunders ain't coming back. We better start hoping for Mike Martz.

[jspchief]

Good. The last guy I wanted was Turner and his shitty offenses.

[chief52]

Nolan also worked under Turner with the Redskins so it makes sense.

[John Matrix]

Norv Turner is a shitty coordinator IMO...all of his success was pre-cap with some of the most loaded squads in NFL history.

[Mecca]

Norv Turner is a shitty coordinator IMO...all of his success was pre-cap with some of the most loaded squads in NFL history.

Missed his time when he took the Chargers from 22nd to 7th did ya? Or how about making the Dolphins competent on offense with Jay Fiedler at QB.......

[FringeNC]

Since when has Norv Turner run a WCO?

"Nolan says he's looking for an experienced play-caller to replace Mike McCarthy, who was officially named as the Packers head coach Thursday in Green Bay. He also wants to stay with the West Coast offense and run-dominated attack established by McCarthy last year.

One man who would satisfy all of those requirements is Norv Turner, the recently fired Raiders coach. Nolan was Turner's defensive coordinator from 1997-99 in Washington, before Nolan was fired, presumably by Turner. "

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/01/13/SPGV9GMLC61.DTL

[Chan93lx50]

That's OK. Al is coming back.

Please Lord let Gochiefs be right!

[jspchief]

Missed his time when he took the Chargers from 22nd to 7th did ya? Or how about making the Dolphins competent on offense with Jay Fiedler at QB.......

Jay Fiedler. That's part of my problem with him. He has to be the worst QB talent evaluator in the league. He consistently tries to make shitty QBs work.

[tk13]

Since when has Norv Turner run a WCO?

"Nolan says he's looking for an experienced play-caller to replace Mike McCarthy, who was officially named as the Packers head coach Thursday in Green Bay. He also wants to stay with the West Coast offense and run-dominated attack established by McCarthy last year.

One man who would satisfy all of those requirements is Norv Turner, the recently fired Raiders coach. Nolan was Turner's defensive coordinator from 1997-99 in Washington, before Nolan was fired, presumably by Turner. "

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/01/13/SPGV9GMLC61.DTL
That's because we get all caught up putting titles on things and fitting them in their little boxes. Norv basically runs what was originally called the west coast offense.

[tomahawk kid]

Didn't have my heart set on Norv, but I REALLY hope Herm starts to get some of the Offensive Staff solidified immediately.

Seems like everyone else is filling positions while we're idle.

[John Matrix]

Missed his time when he took the Chargers from 22nd to 7th did ya? Or how about making the Dolphins competent on offense with Jay Fiedler at QB.......

The Dolphins were comptetant on O b/c they had a weeded out Ricky Williams running balls out...it wasn't Norv being innovative.

The Chargers ran through Tomlinson that entire time, but still had no QB play to speak of.

I'm w/ JSP on this one...the guy does well w/ backs but can't coach or evaluate a QB to save his life...Gus Frerotte, Heath Shuler, Kerry Collins...

[chief52]

Jay Fiedler. That's part of my problem with him. He has to be the worst QB talent evaluator in the league. He consistently tries to make shitty QBs work.

He ain't the man buying the groceries, he is just preparing the meal...

[John Matrix]

Hey everyone it's the world's biggest cocksucker, Bill Parcells.

[chief52]

Hey everyone it's the world's biggest one who sucks the penis, Bill Parcells.

ROFL

[milkman]

I'm tellin' ya.

Get ready for Joe Pendry.

[tk13]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/features/1998/drz/onfootball/0924/

At its best the Walsh Offense, also known as the Cincinnati Offense, and currently mislabeled the West Coast Offense, is what you have seen the 49ers running for almost 20 years. At its worst it was what Arizona and Philadelphia showed us last Sunday night.

First, let's get our terminology straight, OK? The term "West Coast Offense" was originated by Bernie Kosar in 1993 when he came to the Cowboys. I asked him what kind of an offense they ran and he said, "You know, that West Coast Offense ... Norv Turner and Ernie Zampese from the Rams ... Don Coryell and Sid Gillman on the Chargers."

In addition to being a very heady quarterback, Bernie was obviously a serious student of football history because he had neatly wrapped up the whole progression of a system. Gillman's offense at the Chargers back in the '60s, copied by Don Coryell across town at San Diego State, then adapted again by the Chargers when Coryell became their coach in 1978, brought to the Rams in 1987 when Zampese, who had been Coryell's first lieutenant, joined the L.A. staff, where he worked with Turner, who brought the system to Dallas in '91. Split the seams with your tight end, throw timed, precision patterns to your wideouts with a lot of comebacks at 15-to-18 yards—it was vertical and very pretty to watch. It was like slicing a pie.

(That was, and is, the true West Coast Offense, and Kosar was the first person I heard label it as such.)

Meanwhile in Cincinnati a young offensive assistant named Bill Walsh had just lost his terrific rookie quarterback, Greg Cook, a big, strong-armed kid who was a cinch to rewrite all the passing records. With Walsh running the offense Cook averaged a dazzling 17.5 yards per completion in 1969; no quarterback has come near that number since then. If his career hadn't ended with a shoulder injury and Walsh had him for, say, another 10 years, who knows what kind of numbers Cook might have put up and what the system would have looked like—probably something like the great point-a-minute attacks of the Rams in the early 1950s.

But Cook was gone and in came Virgil Carter, mobile, clever, not blessed with a strong arm, but an accurate thrower, adept at reading defenses. And so Walsh developed a horizontal passing game, with rollouts and a lot of underneath stuff and optional reads and breakoff patterns, with the last read always the man closest to the QB, usually a back coming across the middle. Then in 1979 Walsh brought his Cincinnati system to San Francisco, where his quarterback was Steve DeBerg.

"He told me, 'I don't know how many games we'll win with the material we have,'" DeBerg says, "'but I do know one thing. If you run the system right, you'll complete more passes than any quarterback in the NFL.' Damned if I didn't."

A year later Joe Montana replaced DeBerg as the starter, the next year the Niners won the Super Bowl, and it was away we go, five Super Bowls with either Montana or Steve Young running the system that Walsh had originated for Virgil Carter in Cincinnati. And now everyone's calling it the West Coast Offense. What the hell ... San Diego, L.A., San Francisco, it's all West Coast, isn't it? Why be correct when you can settle on a catch phrase? So you'll forgive me, please, if I don't call it by that name. It's the Walsh system.

I'm sick of hearing how a team's ailments will immediately be cured by a new coach, or offensive coordinator, arriving to install that system. If you don't have the people to make it work, it won't work. The zone blitz will eat it up. I saw that in Week 2 when Seattle devoured Arizona, offensively coordinated by Marc Trestman, who had a brief tenure at San Francisco. I saw it again when the Cardinals played the Eagles last week. Oy, what a collection of dink passes going nowhere.

Jake Plummer, a down-the-field thrower last year, completed 21 passes, only one of them longer than 10 yards—the last one a crossing pattern to his tight end through a deserted zone. Philly's Bobby Hoying was a little better. Three of his 13 completions were longer than 10 yards. Then he got knocked out of action, and in came Rodney Peete, who got the ball downfield a little more and led the Eagles on their only scoring drive of the night.

One of the theories of the Walsh system is that you throw to your receivers short and let them run long, provided, of course, the pass catches them in full stride. If it doesn't, if they have to work at making the catch, then they get nailed right away, and you've got that four-yard completion on third and eight. The shifting spectrum of the zone blitz is designed to clog the short passing lanes. One way to combat it is to run at it, hitting the bubble created by a man dropping off the line, but it's not that easy to read. And a running game in general is something more talked about than executed. Blocking skills have eroded. The athletes on the defensive side of the ball are superior to their offensive counterparts; a man can be out of position and still make the play.

[FringeNC]

That's because we get all caught up putting titles on things and fitting them in their little boxes. Norv basically runs what was originally called the west coast offense.

Norv runs the Coryell offense. Both the Coryell offense and the Walsh offense are derived from Sid Gillman. Now everyone considers Walsh to be the "West Coast offense". This is not at all the Coryell offense.

If you want to read about the differences, here is a really good explanation:

http://www.geocities.com/epark/raiders/football-101-coryell-offense.html

[jspchief]

He ain't the man buying the groceries, he is just preparing the meal...Bullshit. Look at the groceries he bought while in head coaching positions. He got rid of Green, in favor of Gus Frerotte at Washington. He brought in Kerry Collins.

[siberian khatru]

He got rid of Green, in favor of Gus Frerotte at Washington.

No, Green replaced Frerotte. Then the Rams signed Green as a FA, and Brad Johnson became the Skins QB, threw for 4,000 yards and 26 TDs and made the Pro Bowl.

Believe it or not, Norv coached 2 Pro Bowl QBs in Washington -- Frerotte and Johnson. I can't remember how Frerotte made it -- all the NFC starters must've gotten hurt in the playoffs or something.

[FringeNC]

Good. The last guy I wanted was Turner and his shitty offenses.

Yeah, I think Turner is overrated. He runs the Martyball version of the Coryell system we run. Dallas was loaded with talent, and they never put up numbers like Saunders did here.

[chief52]

No, Green replaced Frerotte. Then the Rams signed Green as a FA, and Brad Johnson became the Skins QB, threw for 4,000 yards and 26 TDs and made the Pro Bowl.

.

Yep. Martz was the Washington QB coach and left to become the OC with the Rams. He was very familiar with Green and the Rams signed him as a free agent.

[siberian khatru]

Yeah, I think Turner is overrated. He runs the Martyball version of the Coryell system we run. Dallas was loaded with talent, and they never put up numbers like Saunders did here.

The rules were different back then, it's tough to compare.

In Norv's last 3 years at Dallas, the Cowboys finished 6th, 2nd and 2nd in scoring. In those years, only 5 teams total scored 400 or more points, never more than 2 in one year.

In the last four years (2002-05), 24 teams have scored 400 or more points -- 5 in 2002, 7 in 2003, 6 in both 2004 and 2005.

[jspchief]

All I know is, since he left the Cowboys, he's only had a top ten offense (yards) once, and a top ten scoring offense twice.

Basically, since 1994 when he left Dallas, he's had one great year, one good year, and nine mediocre/shitty years.

[PastorMikH]

So are we even looking for an OC or are we waiting to see what Saunders is going to do before we start to look?

[FringeNC]

The rules were different back then, it's tough to compare.

In Norv's last 3 years at Dallas, the Cowboys finished 6th, 2nd and 2nd in scoring. In those years, only 5 teams total scored 400 or more points, never more than 2 in one year.

In the last four years (2002-05), 24 teams have scored 400 or more points -- 5 in 2002, 7 in 2003, 6 in both 2004 and 2005.

And Norv hired Jimmy Raye and had a terrible offense these last few years.

[savedin79]

You can forget Saunders, he isnt coming back.

[chief52]

You can forget Saunders, he isnt coming back.

A lot of people are saying that and it may very well be true. But what are they basing it on? I have not read or heard anything where Saunders says he is pissed or feels slighted. Have not seen it anywhere???

[siberian khatru]

And Norv hired Jimmy Raye and had a terrible offense these last few years.

Yeah, when we were searching for a coach I said that anyone who'd ever hired Jimmy Raye should immediately be disqualified. And that includes Herm Edwards. Oh, well.

[58-4ever]

You can forget Saunders, he isnt coming back.

how the hell do you know?

[FringeNC]

Yeah, when we were searching for a coach I said that anyone who'd ever hired Jimmy Raye should immediately be disqualified. And that includes Herm Edwards. Oh, well.

That's actually a quite good criterion.

[siberian khatru]

All I know is, since he left the Cowboys, he's only had a top ten offense (yards) once, and a top ten scoring offense twice.

Basically, since 1994 when he left Dallas, he's had one great year, one good year, and nine mediocre/shitty years.

I think he'd do well here because of our offensive talent. This would be the best setup he's had since Dallas. His last full year in Washington, he had the No. 2 scoring offense with Brad Johnson at QB, Stephen Davis at RB, Albert Connell and Michael Westbrook at WR and Stephen Alexander at TE.

It's moot now, of course.

[milkman]

A lot of people are saying that and it may very well be true. But what are they basing it on? I have not read or heard anything where Saunders says he is pissed or feels slighted. Have not seen it anywhere???

So, let me ask you.

You spend 10 years at a job.
In the first 5 years or so, you get passed over for a promotion in favor of a guy less qualified than you, but you remain.

After 10 years, you again get passed over for a promotion in favor of a guy that had worked under you years before at another company.

You leave that company, go to work for another company, but return, and once again get passed over for a promotion that you've more than likely earned.

What would you do?

[Johnson&Johnson]

One man who would satisfy all of those requirements is Norv Turner, the recently fired Raiders coach. Nolan was Turner's defensive coordinator from 1997-99 in Washington, before Nolan was fired, presumably by Turner. "

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/01/13/SPGV9GMLC61.DTL


Interesting. Never knew that. Would Nolan keep Turner a year only to do that back to the guy who fired him first?

[chief52]

So, let me ask you.

You spend 10 years at a job.
In the first 5 years or so, you get passed over for a promotion in favor of a guy less qualified than you, but you remain.

After 10 years, you again get passed over for a promotion in favor of a guy that had worked under you years before at another company.

You leave that company, go to work for another company, but return, and once again get passed over for a promotion that you've more than likely earned.

What would you do?

I could understand if he were pissed. If I could get a better deal I would obviously take it. But can he get a better deal? Is he truly where he should be as an OC rather than a Head Coach?

I do not know what his plans are. Some people seem to think they do but what are they basing that on is all I was asking. I would think you would have a lot better chance of keeping an OC ( Saunders ) than getting a fired Head Coach to return a couple of years later as your DC ( Gunther )

I personally do not think Saunders should have been named the Head Coach. Do you?

[chief52]

Interesting. Never knew that. Would Nolan keep Turner a year only to do that back to the guy who fired him first?

Snyder fired Nolan. He was calling all the shots at that time. I am sure Turner had no say at that time...

[milkman]

I could understand if he were pissed. If I could get a better deal I would obviously take it. But can he get a better deal? Is he truly where he should be as an OC rather than a Head Coach?

I do not know what his plans are. Some people seem to think they do but what are they basing that on is all I was asking. I would think you would have a lot better chance of keeping an OC ( Saunders ) than getting a fired Head Coach to return a couple of years later as your DC ( Gunther )

I personally do not think Saunders should have been named the Head Coach. Do you?

I don't know if he should have been, but I would have liked him far better than Hermie.

As for Gunt, he's an idiot.

[Johnson&Johnson]

So, let me ask you.

You spend 10 years at a job.
In the first 5 years or so, you get passed over for a promotion in favor of a guy less qualified than you, but you remain.

After 10 years, you again get passed over for a promotion in favor of a guy that had worked under you years before at another company.

You leave that company, go to work for another company, but return, and once again get passed over for a promotion that you've more than likely earned.

What would you do?

I think Saunders is pissed. But based on your example of a company--

Just because you started with a company as a bookeeper and then got promoted to be an accountant, which later took another job to be a Finance Manager at another company but eventually return to your previous employer as VP or Finance. (assumming you work in a automobile plant in Detroit)

A position of Chief Operations Officer opens up in that same company. Does that mean a person who's very talented with numbers/accounting and taxes etc. must be considered a guy who knows the complete operations of the entire plant (which comprises of every single department of the factory from the production side to the administrative side and PR side?)

The point I'm trying to make is that, just cuz you excelled in one area of expertise does not necessarily transfer to being someone who can lead and motivate others? I use the example an accountant because it examplifies the offensive coordinators in their X's and O's like in accounting...if you are knowledgable of the ins and outs of IRS and tax laws, you sometimes look like a genius because you can save profitable companies lots of money. But that does not mean you can be a good leader that involves more than just one area of the entire staff.

[J Diddy]

I don't know if he should have been, but I would have liked him far better than Hermie.

As for Gunt, he's an idiot.


All your opinion, which I disagree with.

[milkman]

All your opinion, which I disagree with.

You are entitled to do so, J, and I'm not going to disparage in any way you for doing so.




Idiot :p

[milkman]

I think Saunders is pissed. But based on your example of a company--

Just because you started with a company as a bookeeper and then got promoted to be an accountant, which later took another job to be a Finance Manager at another company but eventually return to your previous employer as VP or Finance. (assumming you work in a automobile plant in Detroit)

A position of Chief Operations Officer opens up in that same company. Does that mean a person who's very talented with numbers/accounting and taxes etc. must be considered a guy who knows the complete operations of the entire plant (which comprises of every single department of the factory from the production side to the administrative side and PR side?)

The point I'm trying to make is that, just cuz you excelled in one area of expertise does not necessarily transfer to being someone who can lead and motivate others? I use the example an accountant because it examplifies the offensive coordinators in their X's and O's like in accounting...if you are knowledgable of the ins and outs of IRS and tax laws, you sometimes look like a genius because you can save profitable companies lots of money. But that does not mean you can be a good leader that involves more than just one area of the entire staff.

I get that.

But every person that has been raised to the same level was someone that no one knew with any certainty could be the person that could lead and motivate.

[Johnson&Johnson]

I get that.

But every person that has been raised to the same level was someone that no one knew with any certainty could be the person that could lead and motivate.

True. In this case, its not like Al never got considered for HC jobs around the league. But for every interview he goes to and receive no job offers kinda tell you something...

The GMs and Owners of the league must not see that leadership qualities in Al. Wasn't AL a head coach at some point in San Diego???

Going back to that example of the Detroit automobile company. Just because the retiring COO recommends the VP of Finance as his successor and that the entire accounting department (fans) sing praises for their VP doesn't neccessary gets the promotion. He would still interview with the CEO and possibly the Board of Directors. But thus far, he hasn't been offered a job.

[J Diddy]

You are entitled to do so, J, and I'm not going to disparage in any way you for doing so.




Idiot :p



Umm.

You know when you call someone an idiot, the, umm, word starts with, umm, I.


:shrug:



Oh wtf, I know you are but what am I?

[milkman]

Umm.

You know when you call someone an idiot, the, umm, word starts with, umm, I.


:shrug:



Oh wtf, I know you are but what am I?

ROFL

[milkman]

True. In this case, its not like Al never got considered for HC jobs around the league. But for every interview he goes to and receive no job offers kinda tell you something...

The GMs and Owners of the league must not see that leadership qualities in Al. Wasn't AL a head coach at some point in San Diego???

Going back to that example of the Detroit automobile company. Just because the retiring COO recommends the VP of Finance as his successor and that the entire accounting department (fans) sing praises for their VP doesn't neccessary gets the promotion. He would still interview with the CEO and possibly the Board of Directors. But thus far, he hasn't been offered a job.

Laz keeps alluding to a possibility that Al tried to get the GM in SD fired when he was HC there, so that might well have something to do with it.

It could be that Al doesn't wear his passion on his sleeve the way some HCs do, so that is seen by GMs as a weakness.

There's really no way for us to know.

[Johnson&Johnson]

Laz keeps alluding to a possibility that Al tried to get the GM in SD fired when he was HC there, so that might well have something to do with it.

It could be that Al doesn't wear his passion on his sleeve the way some HCs do, so that is seen by GMs as a weakness.

There's really no way for us to know.

Interesting that you bring that up cuz it may be so that from what transpired there put Al's name in the NFL GM's blacklist.

Anyone ballsy enough to take a shot at Al... none thus far.

I can understand if Al was turned down by one or two job interviews. But how many interviews has he been through not including this year's? Perhaps a lot of GMs are afraid of taking a chance on him and he does the expected and they want to avoid having to deal with "WE TOLD YOU SO"

[TimeForWasp]

As far as I'm concerned, it would be stupid to bring in an offensive coordinator from another team, unless it were someone who has run this specific offense , terminology and all because I think that would spell disaster for the offense running like clockwork. If we can't get Saunders back on board, then we should promote Salari, or possibly as much as I don't like Mike Marts, can't believe I even mentioned that. Or maybe someone from the Rams coaching staff.

[chief52]

As far as I'm concerned, it would be stupid to bring in an offensive coordinator from another team, unless it were someone who has run this specific offense , terminology and all because I think that would spell disaster for the offense running like clockwork. If we can't get Saunders back on board, then we should promote Salari, or possibly as much as I don't like Mike Marts, can't believe I even mentioned that. Or maybe someone from the Rams coaching staff.

I have got to agree with the Rook. The Chiefs need to keep the system regardless. The offensive terminology and philosophy needs to stay the same. If not...you might as well totally rebuild as many of the key players will be gone before they are comfortable with the new system.