Local writer says Memphis is a Mid Major

[HemiEd]

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/imrem.asp?id=171033

Midmajors just that … midmajors

By Mike Imrem
Daily Herald Sports Columnist
Posted Sunday, March 26, 2006


Finally, we can take our heads out of the oven and stick them out the window without hearing shrieks from down in the Valley.

The Missouri Valley Conference, that is.

For nearly two weeks it was, “Look at me! Look at me! I’m so pretty! Dance with me! I’m so talented! Buy me dinner!”

You wanted to scream back, “Oh, shut up already!”

Seriously, I don’t come back from the dentist with new false teeth and expect supermodels to fall in love with me, do I?

So why was the MVC demanding I pay attention to it?

Like, it’s great that soccer is trying to grow in the United States. It’s terrific that more and more women are competing in athletics.

But please, don’t expect me to watch either.

The same goes for the MVC, which suddenly became the country’s Most Vocal Conference. The noise was difficult to escape, especially in Chicago, after placing four teams in the NCAAs.

On the radio, Bradley coach Jim Les was talking. Down the dial, he was talking to somebody else. In USA Today, the Valley’s tournament prospects were handicapped. Southern Illinois coach Chris Lowery made a few media stops. Valley commissioner Doug Elgin was more prevalent than “Law and Order” reruns.

Stop, my ears are burning!

MVC advocates shouted that the league earned its considerable presence in the NCAAs. True. They added that it probably should have had five bids. Maybe. They insisted the league is on the way to becoming a power conference. No.

Listen, the Valley had a nice tournament run with Bradley and Wichita State making the Sweet Sixteen. Still, the league remains midmajor, which means its upside is the middle week of the three-week tourney.

Midmajors have as much chance of winning the national championship as I have of winning Wimbledon.

The NCAAs aren’t about magic. A couple of unlikely teams survive the first couple of rounds before power teams advance to the Final Four.

The tourney is a lot like the Illinois high school tournament’s old one-class system used to be. Tiny schools like Pearl City, Durand and Farmer City would show up at the regional and if they won a game it was like winning the state title.

A Valley team should feel like a champion if it wins one game, or two as Wichita State and Bradley did this year. Any midmajor representative should.

George Mason — that’s a school, not a power forward — can reach the Final Four by upsetting Connecticut today. But the Colonial Athletic Association entry reached this point essentially because it was matched against fellow midmajor Wichita in the Sweet Sixteen.

The only midmajor team in the tourney with a legitimate title shot was Memphis, which actually isn’t in a power league only because Conference USA downsized.

Otherwise it’s like when Annika Sorenstam played in a PGA Tour event. She might have had a chance to make the cut, but she never was going to win.

Midmajors don’t have the resources of power conferences: revenue from big-time football programs and ESPN exposure.

So just enjoy what you are, Missouri Valley, a nice little basketball conference. You aren’t going to suddenly begin outrecruiting the Big Ten and Big 12.

Continue being all you can be, which is this year’s best midmajor and little else.

Most of all, please stop yapping at supermodels and me as if we’re suddenly supposed to notice you.

[Ultra Peanut]

Local writer is a retard.

[Demonpenz]

continue what you will always be a horrible writer

[HemiEd]

Local writer is a retard.

agreed, I have not liked many of his articles. He was especially tough on Todd Christiansen (sp) when the Cubs drafted him.

[Skip Towne]

Local writer is a retard.
You're just mad bcause he's right.

[Ultra Peanut]

agreed, I have not liked many of his articles. He was especially tough on Todd Christiansen (sp) when the Cubs drafted him.You mean Ben Christensen, the guy who hit someone in the on-deck circle?

[Ultra Peanut]

You're just mad bcause he's right.C-USA was pants this year, but unless Cincinnati is a mid-major, we're not.

[HemiEd]

You mean Ben Christensen, the guy who hit someone in the on-deck circle?

I stand corrected, yes the Shocker pitcher. Thanks

[Hootie]

You mean Ben Christensen, the guy who hit someone in the on-deck circle?
Yeah

[Skip Towne]

C-USA was pants this year, but unless Cincinnati is a mid-major, we're not.
Yeah, Cincy is too. It's that whole "Town name" thing.

[Ultra Peanut]

Yeah, Cincy is too. It's that whole "Town name" thing.Just for clarification's sake, are UCLA and UAB mid-majors, too?

[milkman]

Just for clarification's sake, are UCLA and UAB mid-majors, too?

Louie Ville would have been a better example for this question.

UCLA, no.
UAB, yes.

[HemiEd]

Just for clarification's sake, are UCLA and UAB mid-majors, too?

I would say UAB is.

[Ultra Peanut]

(A) UAB is not a mid-major.
(B) I was responding facetiously; Skip isn't serious, either. Catch up, people.

[milkman]

(A) UAB is not a mid-major.
(B) I was responding facetiously; Skip isn't serious, either. Catch up, people.

(A)Wrong bitch.
(B)We know that, but we don't ****ing care.

[HolmeZz]

This guys seems uninformed, with a major axe to grind.

That's a lethal combo.

[HemiEd]

This guys seems uninformed, with a major axe to grind.

That's a lethal combo.

We have to live with Big 10 and Notre Dame arrogance up here from the media. If it is not Big 10 or Notre Dame, it ain't shit.

[banyon]

F this local writer

[cdcox]

Wikipedia can't decide:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-major

[Ultra Peanut]

Wikipedia articles are written by anyone with the motivation to do so. They police their articles for vandalism and inaccuracies, but a Wikipedia article on something that's entirely opinion-based is less reliable than something about the population of Cambodia or whatever.

The problem with an actual definition is that it's pretty much completely subjective, and used to describe leagues rather than teams. To me, there are 8 "major conferences" in football, and the A-10 is added to that bunch in basketball. My definition is no more right or wrong than anyone else's, in the end.

So you could call UAB, or Memphis, or Louisville, or UConn, or Duke a mid-major, and there's really no one to prove you wrong.

[Ultra Peanut]

Mid-major guru Billy Packer just said George Mason is the first mid-major to make it to the Final Four since the field expanded to 64.

That settles it. ROFL

[Pitt Gorilla]

I'm wondering what this douche thinks about G Mason winning today? Maybe he should shut up already.

[HemiEd]

Wikipedia articles are written by anyone with the motivation to do so. They police their articles for vandalism and inaccuracies, but a Wikipedia article on something that's entirely opinion-based is less reliable than something about the population of Cambodia or whatever.

The problem with an actual definition is that it's pretty much completely subjective, and used to describe leagues rather than teams. To me, there are 8 "major conferences" in football, and the A-10 is added to that bunch in basketball. My definition is no more right or wrong than anyone else's, in the end.

So you could call UAB, or Memphis, or Louisville, or UConn, or Duke a mid-major, and there's really no one to prove you wrong.

Good post, I have never thought of UAB as anything but a Mid Major. I have been trying to remember the name of the school before they called it UAB. It seems like the Shockers played them that first year with the new name.

[Ultra Peanut]

I just noticed his last line... yeah, you're so important. They really care what you think. ROFL

[Demonpenz]

better get that raquet ready

[HemiEd]

I'm wondering what this douche thinks about G Mason winning today? Maybe he should shut up already.

I was hoping for a GM victory for that reason, oh and the fact that I hate UConn.

[Thig Lyfe]

All of his paragraphs are four-word sentences.

[Skip Towne]

How long has UAB been Div. 1? Not that long it seems. I think an Iba was their first Div 1 coach.

[HemiEd]

How long has UAB been Div. 1? Not that long it seems. I think an Iba was their first Div 1 coach.

They changed their name as well, been trying to remember what used to be.

[Ultra Peanut]

Good post, I have never thought of UAB as anything but a Mid Major. I have been trying to remember the name of the school before they called it UAB. It seems like the Shockers played them that first year with the new name.UAB has been the University of Alabama at Birmingham for as long as the school has existed (about 40 years), as far as I know.

How long has UAB been Div. 1? Not that long it seems. I think an Iba was their first Div 1 coach.The great Gene Bartow* was their first coach, and quickly built them, from scratch, into a very solid program. He coached them from 1978-79 (they went D1 the next year) to 1995-96, after which Murray Bartow took over. He didn't do as well as dear old dad, and was fired in 2002 after two losing seasons in a row. They then hired Mike Anderson.

UAB has been has been to the NCAA Tournament 13 times in 26 D1 seasons. Including Murray Bartow's final two seasons, they've had 3 losing seasons in the same time span.

* Gene Bartow's Coaching Record
Central Mo. St. 3 47-21 .691
Illinois 1 8-18 .308
Memphis 4 82-32 .719
UAB 18 365-204 .641
UCLA 2 52-9 .852
Valparaiso 6 93-69 .574
Career 34 647-353 .647

[Skip Towne]

The term mid-major hasn't been around that long either.

[HemiEd]

UAB has been the University of Alabama at Birmingham for as long as the school has existed (about 40 years), as far as I know.

Maybe I was confusing the switch to Div 1 with a name change. I am pretty sure they came to the "round house" that first year and played the Shockers.

[jAZ]

The term mid-major is used to idenify one of the non-major conferences.

CUSA & Memphis/Cinci, etc are mid-majors. Get used to it.

Gonzaga is a mid-major too.

The term has less meaning in the modern era of college basketball with as much parody as there is now, but that doesn't change the fact that CUSA is a mid-major conference. It is NOT the Pac-10, Big-10, Big-12, SEC, ACC or Big East.

Stop worrying about it, and be glad they didn't decide to call the 2nd level conferences "Minor Conferences".

[Mecca]

Um.....isn't Cincy in the Big East now, same for Louisville.

[jAZ]

Easiest way to determine if a conference is a mid-major of a full major? Compare their TV contracts.

I'm not sure what CUSA's is, but I'd bet it's no where near that of the traditional major conferences.

[jAZ]

Um.....isn't Cincy in the Big East now, same for Louisville.
That doesn't mean anything. Those schools are naturally "Big" and naturally "East". It had nothing to do with the mid-major status of CUSA.

[Ultra Peanut]

The term mid-major is used to idenify one of the non-major conferences.

CUSA & Memphis/Cinci, etc are mid-majors. Get used to it.

Gonzaga is a mid-major too.

The term has less meaning in the modern era of college basketball with as much parodyIs your post a parody of one featuring someone who knows what they're talking about?

[Ultra Peanut]

By the way, the Mid-Majority.com (http://www.midmajority.com/index.php) site is pretty amusing right now. ROFL

Also, Justin, here's a look at their list of mid-majors in the dance:

Atlanta Regional
16 Southern (SWAC)
15 Penn (Ivy)
14 NW St. (SLC) ROUND OF 32
13 Iona (MAAC)
11 So. Illinois (MVC)
9 UNC Wilmington (CAA)

Oakland Regional
16 Oral Roberts (Mid-Con)
15 Belmont (A-Sun)
13 Bradley (MVC) SWEET 16
12 Kent State (MAC)
9 Bucknell (Patriot) ROUND OF 32

Washington Regional
16 Albany (America East)
15 Winthrop (Big South)
14 Murray State (OVC)
12 Utah State (WAC)
11 George Mason (CAA) FINAL 4
7 Wichita State (MVC) SWEET 16

Minneapolis Regional
16b Hampton (MEAC)
16 Monmouth (NEC)
15 Davidson (SoCon)
14 South Alabama (Sun Belt)
13 Pacific (Big West)
12 Montana (Big Sky) ROUND OF 32
11 Milwaukee (Horizon) ROUND OF 32
10 Northern Iowa (MVC)
5 Nevada (WAC)

Mid-majors do not average 15,000+ fans per game. Mid-majors do not have scads of at-large bids to the tournament in their history. The vast majority of mid-majors do not have multiple Final Four appearances in their history, and those that do tend to have had those appearances 40 or 50 years ago (the Sycamores and Bird aside).

Anyone ignorant enough to call Memphis and Cincinnati (even when they were in C-USA (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3106157&postcount=33), or the puny little Metro with mid-majors like Georgia Tech and Florida State) mid-majors should just hide and stop pretending they know anything about college basketball outside of their own team/conference.

And just for clarification's sake, mid-major is a term that sprang about 10-15 years ago to describe college basketball leagues. Leagues that average around 4 bids per year over the course of their history do not count as mid-major.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Is your post a parody of one featuring someone who knows what they're talking about?
Nice.

ROFL

[DJay23]

Memphis and Gonzaga are major teams in mid-major conferences. Take those teams out of their conferences, and it's likely we wouldn't hear much from them with the exception of their conference tourneys.

These major/mid major/minor conferences have one thing that separate them, and one thing alone. $$$MONEY$$$

The haves = major conferences
The have a littles = mid majors
The have nots = minors

[jAZ]

Is your post a parody of one featuring someone who knows what they're talking about?
This isn't the first or last time we will disagree on this. I have no expectations of getting you to agree with me or the rest of the sports world on this topic.

As I said, the classification has less meaning in the modern 1-and-done era, and the list you put together proves my point. It doesn't change the fact that CUSA gets paid in peanuts rather than dollars for their TV contracts.

[HemiEd]

I am kind of looking forward to Imrem's article tomorrow.

[tk13]

I think it is fair to classify them based on money they bring in, etc.

That said, there is also a part of it that is just the Big 6 conferences and a country club mentality. They for the most part would rather keep to themselves and not allow C-USA or the Missouri Valley to play them consistently and try to work their way into the bottom of the "major" conference picture. That just takes attention and TV money away from them. That's why you never see things like Stanford going to Missouri State or KU playing at Southern Illinois. Just watch them play... you'd have a hard time convincing me the Bradley's and George Mason's and Old Dominion's can't hold their own against KU, Arizona, UNC... you guys want to pretend the gap isn't closing, but it is. The last two years even the 15 and 16 seeds are playing the top teams tough.

[HemiEd]

You make some good points as usual tk13. It has been my observation that the Major schools avoid the Mid-Majors when possible for another reason: Competition for recruits, which has grown to be more of an issue with so many of the High School Standouts going direct to the NBA. I think this more even talent level is also contributing to the closer competitive balance we are seeing.

[Skip Towne]

Hemied and most WSU supporters see that a little differently than I do. KU doesn't want to play WSU because it is an "Everything to lose, nothing to gain" situation. After the "Battle of New Orleans" in 1981, KU relented and agreed to a home and home for I think 5 years. KU pounded the hell out of WSU all five times by an average of about 25 points. As everyone knows, you don't give a home and home series to an inferior opponent. Since WSU is only capable of competing with KU about 20% of the time, KU agreed to extend the series only if it was brought back into the parameters they used for all other opponents. I thought KU gave WSU a break by allowing them to prove their worth with that home and home contract. When WSU proved they were not an equal, KU treated them as such. WSU has a Napoleonic complex that they rightly should have. They are not one of the big boys.

[ROYC75]

I got blasted the other day for not calling Conf.USA a major or a power conf....... Guess I'm not the only one who was right ?

[Pitt Gorilla]

Hey, Skip, does anyone believe that a mid-major like George Mason can hang with the tournament teams? I know you don't.

[Ultra Peanut]

I got blasted the other day for not calling Conf.USA a major or a power conf....... Guess I'm not the only one who was right ?Again, I'm really curious how a conference with several schools who have many Final Four appearances between them and averages just under 4 NCAA bids a season is a mid-major.

If UAB falls off without Anderson, Houston fails to get over the hump and play consistently, and the rest of the teams that underachieved this year fail to return to a decent level of competition, then fine, C-USA will be a mid-major league. As it is, the teams outside the top four performed at a horrendous level and dragged the conference down to a mid-major level of performance this year. That's all you can say about the league at this point until more data comes in.

Of course, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't hoping and praying that we'll be included when the all-sports BE schools split from the I-AA and I-AAA schools in the league. We belong with UC and UL, flat out.

[Skip Towne]

Oh, and also, Hemied, I don't think KU and WSU recruit the same players at all. KU takes its pick and WSU takes what is left over. At least over the past 20 years. In fact, Wichita is not a fertile recruiting ground for as big as it is. KU hasn't had many Wichita players at all. I'm sure there are more but other than Greg Dreiling, Valentine and Steve Woodberry, I don't remember any. And Woodberry was the 6th man. Who else do you remember from Wichita? Iowa has been as good to us as Wichita has with Collison, Heinrich and LaFrentz to name a few.

[ROYC75]

Thank you for showing up and proving everyone who holds your position correct..


Fixed it for you...... :D

[ROYC75]

Nice Peanut ....... see ya changed it.

[ROYC75]

Again, I'm really curious how a conference with several schools who have many Final Four appearances between them and averages just under 4 NCAA bids a season is a mid-major.

If UAB falls off without Anderson, Houston fails to get over the hump and play consistently, and the rest of the teams that underachieved this year fail to return to a decent level of competition, then fine, C-USA will be a mid-major league. As it is, the teams outside the top four performed at a horrendous level and dragged the conference down to a mid-major level of performance this year. That's all you can say about the league at this point until more data comes in.

Of course, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't hoping and praying that we'll be included when the all-sports BE schools split from the I-AA and I-AAA schools in the league. We belong with UC and UL, flat out.


You can always change conf's like Louisville did.

[Ultra Peanut]

You can always change conf's like Louisville did.Believe me, we tried.

Instead, they went with the sexy Tampa market and the powerhouse West Central Florida Community College Kawikas.

[ROYC75]

That is what's keeping the conf. down as a major confrence....... Memphi is a good program caught up in the wrong conf.

[Skip Towne]

Hey, Skip, does anyone believe that a mid-major like George Mason can hang with the tournament teams? I know you don't.
Things are constantly changing in college basketball. The way it has been, a good mid-major can hang with a good major about 20% of the time. Where was George Mason 5 or even 10 years ago? Look them up in five years and see where they are. Where was KU 5 or 10 or 50 years ago? And where will they be 5 years from now? But guys like you see one year of success and conclude George Mason is better than KU. That the MVC is the Big XII's equal. Once in a while yes, 80% of the time no. See my post above about WSU thinking it was KU's equal. KU had to pound them for 5 years and they still wanted to be treated as equals. Not going to happen.

[DJay23]

No better way to prove you're a big boy than to put your money where your mouth is. I'd love to see KU take on all the George Mason's and Wichita States of the world.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Things are constantly changing in college basketball. The way it has been, a good mid-major can hang with a good major about 20% of the time. Where was George Mason 5 or even 10 years ago? Look them up in five years and see where they are. Where was KU 5 or 10 or 50 years ago? And where will they be 5 years from now? But guys like you see one year of success and conclude George Mason is better than KU. That the MVC is the Big XII's equal. Once in a while yes, 80% of the time no. See my post above about WSU thinking it was KU's equal. KU had to pound them for 5 years and they still wanted to be treated as equals. Not going to happen.So, it's a statistical anomaly that GM made it this far? If you throw out the WSU game, you're saying that GM had an 8/1000 chance to make it this far? Evidently, you didn't watch the game today.

[Skip Towne]

No better way to prove you're a big boy than to put your money where your mouth is. I'd love to see KU take on all the George Mason's and Wichita States of the world.
I would too. We'd lose once in a while but we would win a lot more than we lost. Hell the Richmond Spiders beat us recently at AFH. Where were the Richmond Spiders at dance time? :shrug: And were they demanding a home and home from us? Probably not but I'm sure KU would have laughed a them.

[HemiEd]

Hemied and most WSU supporters see that a little differently than I do. KU doesn't want to play WSU because it is an "Everything to lose, nothing to gain" situation..
That is exactly why KU would not play them until they had to, in the NCAA. Once they lost, they needed to avenge the loss.
After the "Battle of New Orleans" in 1981, KU relented and agreed to a home and home for I think 5 years. KU pounded the hell out of WSU all five times by an average of about 25 points.
Actually, KU did this to regain their lost stature. The fanfare was rather spectacular. I remember having a T-shirt that gave the football score from that year, and the basketball score, then it said: Baseball anyone?
I have heard you talk about the lopsided scores, I do not remember them. The team was in ruins because someone very powerful ratted on them to the NCAA for giving a coat to a player. Yep, it was hard to compete, Ted Owens.

As everyone knows, you don't give a home and home series to an inferior opponent. Since WSU is only capable of competing with KU about 20% of the time, KU agreed to extend the series only if it was brought back into the parameters they used for all other opponents..
That was a demeaning gesture and arrogant. There are a hell of a lot of KU alumni in Wichita that would enjoy the series though and pay well to see it.

I thought KU gave WSU a break by allowing them to prove their worth with that home and home contract. When WSU proved they were not an equal, KU treated them as such. WSU has a Napoleonic complex that they rightly should have. They are not one of the big boys.
Nice Spin Skip, in retrospect the Shocks should have refused the series and not given KU a chance to avenge the NCAA tourney loss.

Oh, and also, Hemied, I don't think KU and WSU recruit the same players at all. KU takes its pick and WSU takes what is left over. At least over the past 20 years. In fact, Wichita is not a fertile recruiting ground for as big as it is. KU hasn't had many Wichita players at all..
They used to be vey successful at it, but you are right they are not turning out the elite players like they did for a while. I think the last one was a head case, Quentin or something like that.
I'm sure there are more but other than Greg Dreiling, Valentine and Steve Woodberry, I don't remember any. And Woodberry was the 6th man. Who else do you remember from Wichita? Iowa has been as good to us as Wichita has with Collison, Heinrich and LaFrentz to name a few.
Greg Dreiling transferred to KU from WSU. The Shocks were starting to compete Nationaly for recruits. Two McDonalds All Americans the same year, Carr and Levingston.
I am a fan of both teams, but they are a good example of the Major/Mid Major issue.

[Skip Towne]

That is exactly why KU would not play them until they had to, in the NCAA. Once they lost, they needed to avenge the loss.

Actually, KU did this to regain their lost stature. The fanfare was rather spectacular. I remember having a T-shirt that gave the football score from that year, and the basketball score, then it said: Baseball anyone?
I have heard you talk about the lopsided scores, I do not remember them. The team was in ruins because someone very powerful ratted on them to the NCAA for giving a coat to a player. Yep, it was hard to compete, Ted Owens.


That was a demeaning gesture and arrogant. There are a hell of a lot of KU alumni in Wichita that would enjoy the series though and pay well to see it.


Nice Spin Skip, in retrospect the Shocks should have refused the series and not given KU a chance to avenge the NCAA tourney loss.


They used to be vey successful at it, but you are right they are not turning out the elite players like they did for a while. I think the last one was a head case, Quentin or something like that.

Greg Dreiling transferred to KU from WSU. The Shocks were starting to compete Nationaly for recruits. Two McDonalds All Americans the same year, Carr and Levingston.
I am a fan of both teams, but they are a good example of the Major/Mid Major issue.
I haven't had to argue with a "Wheatshocker" for years. Mainly because they are no competition 80% of the time like I said. And what does KU gain from beating a doormat? KU didn't give the Shocks a 5 year home and home to avenge the loss but to prove to them they were not an opponent that warranted a home and home. And KU did just that 5 straight, lopsided times. They gave WSU a chance to prove themselves and WSU failed miserably so were demoted to that status. What is arrogant about treating WSU any differently than any other inferior opponent? Why would WSU expect KU to keep awarding them home and home contracts when KU kept stomping them? The fact is it was good for WSU even while getting stomped because it filled their arena which they couldn't do otherwise. But t was nothing but a losing proposition for KU. WSU needs KU to fill their arena but KU doesn't need WSU to fill theirs. And you accuse me of spinning. WSU can't stay in the same arena with KU at least 80% of the time. But you are trying to spin it where they can. They CAN'T. We proved it and it's over. WSU doesn't deserve a home and home and that is exactly why they don't get it. I notice you didn't add any Wichita players to my list. How can you possibly think KU goes after the same players WSU does. That is totally ridiculous.

[HemiEd]

You are ignoring my point Skip. What were those scores? Why could they not compete? They were put on probation immediately after beating KU in the tournament. The Coach was forced out, and the program tanked. No players wanted to come there with the probation. Then KU agreed to the contract, very sporting after refusing it for something like 50 years.

As far as the players go, my point was they were starting to compete for recruits Nationaly with KU. Ted Owens was being pressured, he was on his way down. The KU program was at a low. It was never ever at the level it has been the last decade.

I noticed you did not mention anything about the Shockers also beating them in Football that year.

I hate picking on KU but the Shockers have won a National Championship more recently than KU.

[ROYC75]

You are ignoring my point Skip. What were those scores? Why could they not compete? They were put on probation immediately after beating KU in the tournament. The Coach was forced out, and the program tanked. No players wanted to come there with the probation. Then KU agreed to the contract, very sporting after refusing it for something like 50 years.

As far as the players go, my point was they were starting to compete for recruits Nationaly with KU. Ted Owens was being pressured, he was on his way down. The KU program was at a low. It was never ever at the level it has been the last decade.

I noticed you did not mention anything about the Shockers also beating them in Football that year.

I hate picking on KU but the Shockers have won a National Championship more recently than KU.

In what ? I honestly haven't a clue as to what you speak of .

[HemiEd]

In what ? I honestly haven't a clue as to what you speak of .

Baseball, and a few in Bowling IIRC. :D

[Skip Towne]

You are ignoring my point Skip. What were those scores? Why could they not compete? They were put on probation immediately after beating KU in the tournament. The Coach was forced out, and the program tanked. No players wanted to come there with the probation. Then KU agreed to the contract, very sporting after refusing it for something like 50 years.

As far as the players go, my point was they were starting to compete for recruits Nationaly with KU. Ted Owens was being pressured, he was on his way down. The KU program was at a low. It was never ever at the level it has been the last decade.

I noticed you did not mention anything about the Shockers also beating them in Football that year.

I hate picking on KU but the Shockers have won a National Championship more recently than KU.
No players wanted to go to WSU probation or no probation. KU agreed to give WSU a chance to compete on a home and home basis. And WSU got the living shit kicked out of them during the 5 years KU gave them. How many times do I have to tell you that? And it is funny you bring up football since WSU hasn't been able to field a football team in 25 years. BTW, I spent one semester at WSU and it was the most miserable time of my college career. I never saw a cheerleader or even the student union in my brief time there. When you stepped off campus you were on the "wrong side of town" . I immediately transferred to KU where there was a college atmosphere. You are making a fool of yourself trying to compare WSU to KU in basketball. Do I really have to explain it to you? Wouldn't that make me arrogant? Let's suffice it to say that KU has made the NCAA Tournament for 17 straight years. Second in the nation with that streak. Would you let me know where WSU is along that continuum? If you were talking about Duke or North Carolina I might listen but you're trying to pimp a nobody like WSU. Tell it to somebody that doesn't know better.

[HemiEd]

You are so laughable on this Skip, really. Where are these scores you mention for the fourth time?!
I was comparing the two as a Major and Mid Major, the thread topic. I do not question Roy Williams put the KU program at a very eilite level. I have really enjoyed watching those teams. Conversely, the Shockers are just starting to recover from the probation. I only hope Turgeon finishes the job, similar to what Snyder did for Football at K State.
I corrected you on the history, that is all.
1) KU would not play the Shockers under any circumstances voluntarily until they lost to them in the NCAA. If you deny this you will make a fool of yourself! They had refused any kind of matchup for many decades prior to that.
2) They then agree to play them after they are put on probation. Greg Dreiling transferred to KU, Cliff Levingston bolted for the NBA.
3) No players wanted to Play at WSU? That is hilarious, do you follow Basketball? KU wanted Carr, Dreilling and Levingston very badly. I think the Valley player of the year was wearing Black and Gold this year.

I am sorry you did not enjoy your time at 21st and Hillside, the Carneys started a pretty good business about that time on that corner. You may have heard of it, Pizza Hut.

No Student Union? I spent a lot of time there, played in the AAU pool tournament down there. They also have a bowling alley that Gordon Vadekan has built the top Bowing program in the country using. I have also been to the KU student union, it was no better.

I love to watch the Jayhawks, but wish Roy had not left.
Bill Self is not doing so good against Mid Majors in the tournament so far. He is using up a lot of those 20% you talk about. I think Roy could have probably handled them. I was hoping they would match KU and Wichita State up in the tournament this year.

Oh, and about the Football, they were not very good after the plane crash. But they did beat KU the last time they played them.

Maybe the Shockers should take the same two for one schedule approach in Baseball. The Shocks are the Major in that sport.

[Skip Towne]

You are so laughable on this Skip, really. Where are these scores you mention for the fourth time?!
I was comparing the two as a Major and Mid Major, the thread topic. I do not question Roy Williams put the KU program at a very eilite level. I have really enjoyed watching those teams. Conversely, the Shockers are just starting to recover from the probation. I only hope Turgeon finishes the job, similar to what Snyder did for Football at K State.
I corrected you on the history, that is all.
1) KU would not play the Shockers under any circumstances voluntarily until they lost to them in the NCAA. If you deny this you will make a fool of yourself! They had refused any kind of matchup for many decades prior to that.
2) They then agree to play them after they are put on probation. Greg Dreiling transferred to KU, Cliff Levingston bolted for the NBA.
3) No players wanted to Play at WSU? That is hilarious, do you follow Basketball? KU wanted Carr, Dreilling and Levingston very badly. I think the Valley player of the year was wearing Black and Gold this year.

I am sorry you did not enjoy your time at 21st and Hillside, the Carneys started a pretty good business about that time on that corner. You may have heard of it, Pizza Hut.

No Student Union? I spent a lot of time there, played in the AAU pool tournament down there. They also have a bowling alley that Gordon Vadekan has built the top Bowing program in the country using. I have also been to the KU student union, it was no better.

I love to watch the Jayhawks, but wish Roy had not left.
Bill Self is not doing so good against Mid Majors in the tournament so far. He is using up a lot of those 20% you talk about. I think Roy could have probably handled them. I was hoping they would match KU and Wichita State up in the tournament this year.

Oh, and about the Football, they were not very good after the plane crash. But they did beat KU the last time they played them.

Maybe the Shockers should take the same two for one schedule approach in Baseball. The Shocks are the Major in that sport.
You need to go find those scores for yourself, dipshit. I can't believe you are so stupid as to argue that you can say WSU basketball compares to KU. Are you really that stupid? You really want to compare KU basketball to WSU? You are a f*cking idiot. Let's see now, yeah the best BBall programs in America are Kentucky, North Carolina, Duke aannnnd Wichita State!!!. You can't reallyl be that stupid now can you? I'm sorry but you have not a leg to stand on and I will no longer discuss it with you. Get a team and come back. Wichita State won't get it.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Good article about GM.

http://cbs.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/9339281

[HemiEd]

You need to go find those scores for yourself, dipshit. I can't believe you are so stupid as to argue that you can say WSU basketball compares to KU. Are you really that stupid? You really want to compare KU basketball to WSU? You are a f*cking idiot. Let's see now, yeah the best BBall programs in America are Kentucky, North Carolina, Duke aannnnd Wichita State!!!. You can't reallyl be that stupid now can you? I'm sorry but you have not a leg to stand on and I will no longer discuss it with you. Get a team and come back. Wichita State won't get it.


Now it is name calling, I thought we were having a discussion. You do not even acknowledge any of my points. You must be up after your bedtime, or maybe you are stoned. You are the one that keeps mentioning the scores. I understand you can not get around too good on that webtv, so here they are.
-------- KU WSU
1981 --- 65 66
83-84 --- 79 69 at Lawrence
84-85--- 90 83 at KC
85-86 --- 81 56 at KC
86-87--- 49 54 at WSU

So we have 5 games, KU won 3 and the Shocks 2. Only 1 home game for the Shockers. http://www.kusports.com/basketball/history/stats_game_by_game/brown_stats_84-88.html

Now, we can quit having this discussion, you do not know shit. Better get to bed or you might fall off of a roof tomorrow.

[ROYC75]

Baseball, and a few in Bowling IIRC. :D

When did MU win a NC in baseball ? For that matter, even bowling .

[HemiEd]

When did MU win a NC in baseball ? For that matter, even bowling .

I have no idea Roy, I was talking about Wichita State.

[Pitt Gorilla]

When did MU win a NC in baseball ? For that matter, even bowling .MU Shockers? Come on.

[ROYC75]

MU Shockers? Come on.

My bad, I was thinking of MU, he was thinking WSU. We weren't on the same page........

WSU has had good baseball teams in the past. Seems as thou I'm the one that is past bedtime. Night all .

[HemiEd]

My bad, I was thinking of MU, he was thinking WSU. We weren't on the same page........

WSU has had good baseball teams in the past. Seems as thou I'm the one that is past bedtime. Night all .

89 College World Series Champs IIRC, 2 nd one other time. They have won a lot of bowling ones, but I do not keep track of those.

[tk13]

Things are constantly changing in college basketball. The way it has been, a good mid-major can hang with a good major about 20% of the time. Where was George Mason 5 or even 10 years ago? Look them up in five years and see where they are. Where was KU 5 or 10 or 50 years ago? And where will they be 5 years from now? But guys like you see one year of success and conclude George Mason is better than KU. That the MVC is the Big XII's equal. Once in a while yes, 80% of the time no. See my post above about WSU thinking it was KU's equal. KU had to pound them for 5 years and they still wanted to be treated as equals. Not going to happen.
Says a fan of a team that has lost to Bucknell, Nevada, St. Joseph, and Bradley in the last year...

Do you realize that KU is 1-4 in its last 5 games against non-"major" teams with a winning record? The only win was over a Yale team that finished 15-14.

[Demonpenz]

the nursing home needs to take away skips posting rights

[HemiEd]

I am kind of looking forward to Imrem's article tomorrow.


He wrote about the IRL driver tragic death. The man was a Northwestern grad.

He totally ignored his stupidity in the previous article.