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Mr. Laz
04-03-2006, 01:41 PM
Building NFL fortunes

Across the U.S., the NFL has touted public/private partnerships to build or renovate stadiums. But the deals largely rest on the backs of taxpayers and fans

By JOSH PETER
New Orleans Times-Picayune
The sales pitch came straight out of the NFL's playbook.

It was November 2000, and the Chicago Bears wanted $400 million from taxpayers to help pay for the renovation of Soldier Field. But there was little support among state lawmakers, who questioned the wisdom of giving a private company so much public money for a project that would further enrich the team's ultrawealthy owners.

The Bears prevailed, thanks to a familiar promise.

Like NFL teams across the country, the Bears proposed a public/private partnership, and pledged to pay their fair share – $200 million – toward the $632 million stadium project. Chicago Mayor Richard Daley heralded the Bears' generosity.

"Really remarkable," he told a local newspaper. "Unheard of."

Under pressure from the team to act, the Illinois legislature approved the deal within 72 hours, and the NFL stadium boom surged on. So did a myth about taxpayer-financed stadium deals. What's truly remarkable about the Bears' $200 million contribution is that less than $30 million will come directly from the team's owners.

Yet the Bears aren't alone.

Trumpeting the concept of partnership to win public support, NFL owners have secured $4.4 billion in taxpayer dollars since 1995 for 21 new or renovated stadiums. Though teams have represented their combined contribution as about $2 billion, a Times-Picayune study shows their actual out-of-pocket expenses were no more than half that.

Here's why:

1. Building NFL fortunes

2. Bank of NFL; Sure, if teams can secure taxpayer money

3. Critics question league's tax-exempt activities


• An NFL program loans teams up to $150 million for a new stadium. A key component of the program is the business model driving each loan: Most of it is not repaid by the borrowing team, but from the visiting team's cut of club-seat money. The visiting team still makes more money, for a simple reason: Once the public pays for a new stadium, the team charges fans significantly more to get in. The loan program virtually mandates it, according to NFL documents obtained by the newspaper. One condition of loan approval requires the borrowing team to show that the visiting team will enjoy increased revenue in the new stadium, the documents reveal.

• Teams raise millions by selling personal seat licenses, a one-time fee many clubs charge fans for the right to purchase premium season tickets. PSLs have been used to generate more than $70 million that teams count as their contribution to new stadium deals. Yet while NFL clubs ask taxpayers to help pay for stadiums, the teams do not pay taxes on PSL sales. The deals are constructed so that the PSL money is collected through tax-exempt government agencies. The agencies are public entities, but the money they collect counts toward the teams' share of stadium costs.

• Though the public owns the stadiums, teams on average control more than 90 percent of the revenue through long-term leases. Once the stadium opens, the amount of money directly invested by NFL teams is quickly recouped, often within a few years – thanks to lucrative luxury boxes, club seats and considerably higher ticket prices. Taxpayers, however, typically are committed to up to 30 years of debt payments.

To critics, the NFL stadium deals place too much financial burden on taxpayers and fans.

"I'm not anti-Chicago Bears, but look," said William Black, an Illinois state representative from Danville who opposed the deal. "The taxpayers are building a stadium for a family of millionaires, so millionaire players can play, and the average taxpayer can't even afford a seat. There's something wrong with this picture."

The NFL views the picture differently.

"Stadium projects are the result of public/private partnerships and not club requests for taxpayer money," league spokesman Greg Aiello said. "The clubs and their communities sit down and discuss what makes sense in their particular market, based on their respective assessment of the benefits and the burdens."

Responding to criticism that owners overstate their financial contribution and much of the money comes from ticket-buying fans, the league said the source of private money is not an issue.

"All NFL revenue is ultimately derived from the fans," Aiello said.

One stadium finance expert agreed with that assessment but said that when teams are seeking taxpayer support, they aren't so forthright about where the private portion will come from.

"Teams don't pay anywhere near what the public sector is paying, and there's all kind of accounting shenanigans that really disguise and misrepresent their actual contribution," said Robert Baade, an economics professor at Lake Forest (Ill.) College who has done extensive studies of stadium finance. "It's part of the apparatus of persuasion to convince the skeptical public that it is a good thing, that the team is shouldering a fair portion of the financial burden, which we know is inaccurate."

Scared cities

In the feverish push for stadium deals – 21 new or renovated stadiums have won approval since 1995 – the details behind the numbers often go overlooked in the face of the NFL's popularity.

Owners threaten to move franchises unless they get a new stadium. Competing cities hungry for an NFL franchise drive up the ante with taxpayer dollars. No market is immune from the forces at the heart of the league's $6 billion stadium-building run.

The Los Angeles area saw two teams, the Rams and Raiders, leave after refusing to bend on new stadium proposals. Minneapolis and San Diego are under pressure to build new facilities or risk losing their franchises. The Indianapolis Colts agreed to back off demands for a new stadium in exchange for a deal similar to what the New Orleans Saints got last year. The state of Louisiana bought time to study the stadium issue when it agreed to give the Saints $186 million over 10 years to stay in the Superdome.

Even Chicago, a vital television market to the NFL, buckled. Citing new stadiums across the league, the Bears said they needed one to compete – or they might be forced to leave town.

"Which is just pure baloney," said Black, who pointed out the team's long history in a city the size of Chicago makes it unlikely the franchise ever would move.

"The team's late owner, George Halas, is widely regarded as the father of the NFL," he said.

But according to Black, when anybody suggested public meetings, or a referendum, or simply slowing down for analysis, the Bears said there wasn't time. The NFL loan money might dry up, Black said he recalls hearing.

"Well, I've been in the General Assembly for 15 years," he said, "and any time I hear that malarkey, nine times out of 10 the plan will not stand scrutiny."

Scrutiny reveals why the Bears were so eager for the $632 million renovation that will include two major parking garages and 17 acres of parkland.

The largest part of the team's $200 million share is a $100 million loan from the NFL – although very little of the money will be repaid by the Bears.

Essentially functioning as a bank, the NFL has raised money for the loan program by issuing league-backed bonds, which has led some experts to raise questions. The NFL is a nonprofit organization exempt from federal taxes, and Internal Revenue Service rules restrict such groups from profiting their members or holding an unfair advantage over taxpaying businesses offering the same services.

"It's taking advantage of the generosity of the IRS," said Neil deMause, co-author of "Field of Schemes," a book showing how public funding of stadiums results in private gain.

The NFL counters by saying all taxable revenue is taxed at the team level. The league's loan program does not compete with other businesses, such as banks, because the NFL lends money to its members only, Aiello said.

The program, called G-3, began in 1999 – in part to keep the New England Patriots from moving to Hartford, Conn. – and borrowing owners couldn't ask for a better repayment plan. Most of the loan is repaid with money from the visiting team's 34-percent share of club-seat money. Sports economist Andrew Zimbalist referred to the loans as "almost free money" for the borrowing owner.

The second-largest part of the Bears' contribution is $70 million from personal seat licenses, which are sold to fans at prices ranging from $900 to $10,000 each. The money from the PSLs counts as the Bears' contribution, but the team does not collect the money – or pay taxes on it. Fans are told to make checks payable to a public agency, the Lakefront Improvement Fund, an arrangement that saves the Bears millions of dollars.

While the NFL is tax-exempt, its teams are not. If the Bears, for example, collected the PSL money directly, the team could owe roughly $25 million in taxes based on the standard corporate tax rate of 35 percent.

The balance of the Bears' contribution to the $632 million project is about $30 million. When the renovation is complete, stadium experts estimate, the team will enjoy about $35 million more per year in revenue. Based on that figure, it will take only one season for the Bears to recoup their actual investment in the stadium.

That stands in contrast to the public, which will be paying off $400 million in bonds for the next 30 years.

Bears spokesman Scott Hagel defended the team's contribution. The PSL money should count as part of the Bears' share, since the team agreed to dedicate the money toward the stadium, he said.

"To people who say the team isn't paying anything, that's where I say, 'Baloney,' " he said. "Every revenue stream the team has, if you're giving that up, you're giving up money, from the organization's standpoint."

Hagel also said the Bears assumed the project's greatest risk because the team must sell advertising, luxury suites and tickets to generate the projected income.

Yet the team benefits from remarkable fan interest that reduces such risk. The Bears have sold out every home game since 1984 – despite eight losing seasons during that stretch – and thousands of fans are on the waiting list for season tickets.

Illinois taxpayers aren't alone in facing long-term stadium debt. Over the next 30 years, taxpayers in NFL cities face more than $2 billion in interest payments on bonds used to raise public money for NFL stadiums. That figure does not include the $4.4 billion in tax money dedicated to the projects.

Meanwhile, of the $2 billion the teams say they're investing in stadiums, about $1 billion comes from NFL loans and PSLs – both derived from revenue collected from fans.

The NFL says it's irrelevant to break down money generated by its loan program and PSLs. "Those are monies that, if not contributed to the stadium projects, could otherwise be kept by the clubs and should be viewed as the equivalent of club contribution," Aiello said.

Stadium-finance experts dispute that point, saying it is the substantial increase in revenue from the new stadiums that repays the loans and produces the PSL money. Without the new facilities, they say, there would be no such revenue for the teams to keep.

Path to millions

To get their stadium deals, NFL teams simply follow the blueprint developed over the past decade. No team altered stadium financing as significantly as the Carolina Panthers.

In 1993, the Panthers became the first team to sell personal seat licenses – and raised $160 million. NFL owners took notice of the whopping dollars and something else: The federal government hit the team with a $50 million tax bill.

Said one NFL executive, who requested anonymity: "A critical financial component had to be addressed."

The challenge Figure out a way to sell PSLs to fans without having to pay taxes on the money.

The blueprint emerged in St. Louis, where in 1995 the city sold $75 million in PSLs in an effort to lure the Rams from Los Angeles. Because the government sold the PSLs, taxes were avoided – even though the money directly benefited the Rams by paying for the team's relocation costs.

The IRS scrutinized the deal. It passed muster, and the word was out: Taxes were a nonissue as long as the money flowed through a government agency and was spent on a publicly owned stadium or relocation costs.

A golden goose was born.

"The Rams model is the one everyone focuses on," the NFL executive said.

More than $600 million in PSL money has been raised for stadium projects on behalf of NFL teams. Applying a federal tax rate of 35 percent, those teams have avoided more than $200 million in federal taxes, according to tax experts. While teams could recoup the tax payment, it would require 30 years of deductions, experts said.

No matter how the NFL does the math, it's clear who's shouldering stadium costs: The public pays one huge share, and fans pay another.

Paul Allen, the Microsoft billionaire who owns the Seattle Seahawks, pledged $100 million toward the team's new stadium and persuaded the public to pick up the difference: $300 million.

When stadium costs exceeded estimates, Allen's share increased to $130 million – less than half of it from his own pocket. The Seahawks received a $60 million loan from the NFL and $20 million in PSL money, reducing Allen's direct share to $50 million. Revenue estimates show he'll recoup that within a few seasons in the new stadium, while the public faces debt payments of almost $600 million over 20 years.

The Seahawks referred questions to a public-relations firm, which did not respond to requests for comment.

In Philadelphia, Eagles owner Jeffrey Lurie promised to pay $255 million, while getting taxpayers to pay $245 million for the team's new stadium. The Eagles' portion includes a $130 million NFL loan and $70 million in PSL money, reducing Lurie's out-of-pocket costs to $55 million.

Eagles spokesman Ron Howard declined to comment on the Philadelphia deal but pointed out the Baltimore Ravens contributed even less for their new stadium.

Aiello said the NFL's proof that the deals are fair is "based on the fact that more than 21 new or substantially renovated stadiums have been built or are on line to be built as the result of successful public/private partnerships."

In each new stadium, increased ticket prices will play a key role in repaying an NFL loan, while still guaranteeing a net increase in money for visiting owners. "Increases in the visiting-team share generated by the new or renovated stadium must meet the standards set forth in the guidelines" governing the loan program, according to league documents.

Players also benefit, since the salary cap is tied to league revenue.

"The owners win and the players win," said Tom DePaso, staff counsel for the NFL Players Association. "When there's more money, everybody wins."

Big winners

No one wins bigger than NFL owners.

New stadiums not only bring a substantial jump in cash flow, they also dramatically increase the value of a franchise – sometimes doubling it.

Art Modell, owner of the Baltimore Ravens, cashed in on a publicly-financed stadium. In 1996, the year after Modell moved the Browns from Cleveland to Baltimore for the promise of a new stadium, Financial World magazine estimated the team's value increased 23 percent to $201 million.

Three years later Modell reportedly got $275 million for less than half of the team. Modell sold 49 percent to businessman Stephen Bisciotti, along with the option to buy the remaining 51 percent after the 2003 season. Bisciotti plans to use that option, which reportedly will cost him another $325 million.

Modell's total take: $600 million for a team he bought in 1961 for less than $4 million ($23.7 million in 2002 dollars, adjusted for inflation).

Such astonishing profits that stem from publicly-financed stadiums have drawn scrutiny from political leaders such as Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., and Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass. But so far, legislative efforts aimed at increasing the NFL's contribution to new stadiums have been blocked. That, according to critics, has left taxpayers vulnerable to deals that heavily favor NFL owners.

"The way stadium deals are financed, this is not illegal," said Allen Sanderson, an economics professor at the University of Chicago. "It's just these guys are very clever in terms of being able to take full advantage of the tax laws and in some cases favorable legislation.

"I wish it didn't happen."

jspchief
04-03-2006, 01:44 PM
Why is it these owners feel they have to make money on their businesses? They are all rich, they should be looking for ways to lose money.

jspchief
04-03-2006, 02:03 PM
I have two problems with this article.

1. "The fans pay a huge share". Name me one business where the customer doesn't foot the bill. That's how business works. The writer makes it sound like it's some kind of screw job, when it's no different than a price increase at the grocery store to pay for their expansion. The "fan" (customer) is always responsible for the cost of doing business, otherwise the business fails.

2. He ignores the fact that the owner is sacrificing future profits to pay off the NFL loan. Whether he is taking the money directly from his bank account, or forfeiting a mandatory increase in ticket price, it's still ultimately owners' money that is being used to pay back the loan.

The only real outrageous thing I see in the article is the way PSLs are being sold tax free, and that sounds like it's a creature of city governments more than the NFL.

shaneo69
04-03-2006, 02:42 PM
I have two problems with this article.

1. "The fans pay a huge share". Name me one business where the customer doesn't foot the bill. That's how business works. The writer makes it sound like it's some kind of screw job, when it's no different than a price increase at the grocery store to pay for their expansion. The "fan" (customer) is always responsible for the cost of doing business, otherwise the business fails.

The grocery stores have to keep their prices at a reasonable level, or else people will find a different grocery store to shop at. Most cities have more than one grocer in town, which causes competition. NFL owners have no competition; they can raise their ticket prices without fear that a Chiefs fan will stop buying Chiefs tickets and start buying Rams tickets.

Also, I haven't heard of many tax increases that are used to fund new grocery stores.

jspchief
04-03-2006, 02:59 PM
The grocery stores have to keep their prices at a reasonable level, or else people will find a different grocery store to shop at. Most cities have more than one grocer in town, which causes competition. NFL owners have no competition; they can raise their ticket prices without fear that a Chiefs fan will stop buying Chiefs tickets and start buying Rams tickets.

Also, I haven't heard of many tax increases that are used to fund new grocery stores. That's absurd. It's not "professional football dollars". It's "entertainment dollars". And when the Chiefs get too expensive, people start spending those entertainment dollars elsewhere. Every year fans stop buying tickets because it's become too expensive.

Where do you think the money comes from to build that grocery store? It comes from the "fans". The people that spend their money on the product that store is selling.

As for tax increases building grocery stores, I guess you've never heard of the government giving out tax credits and abatements to stimulate economic growth. When a government uses tax breaks to lure in corporations and stimulate the economy, they are essentially spending future tax dollars to get those companies to build in their city (not unlike an NFL owner spending future ticket profits on a stadium renovation).

If you want to claim this is some big scam, then I have bad news for you. Not only is it happening everywhere with pro sports franchises, it's happening everywhere with government generated economic stimulus. The same type of stimulus that brought in the company that you or your neighbor works for right now.

You've also never seen a city build a museum or park with tax dollars in an effort to improve quality of life for it's residents. Governments routinely spend tax money to make their town/city/state a better place to live. 10 years from now, when the Chiefs are in LA, the KC government will spending your tax money trying to figure out why everyone is moving away and how in the hell they can make people want to live in a dumpy midwestern city on the Kansas/Missouri border.

ct
04-03-2006, 03:43 PM
man jsp, you really are cranky today

Hydrae
04-03-2006, 05:52 PM
2. He ignores the fact that the owner is sacrificing future profits to pay off the NFL loan. Whether he is taking the money directly from his bank account, or forfeiting a mandatory increase in ticket price, it's still ultimately owners' money that is being used to pay back the loan.


An NFL program loans teams up to $150 million for a new stadium. A key component of the program is the business model driving each loan: Most of it is not repaid by the borrowing team, but from the visiting team's cut of club-seat money. The visiting team still makes more money, for a simple reason: Once the public pays for a new stadium, the team charges fans significantly more to get in. The loan program virtually mandates it, according to NFL documents obtained by the newspaper. One condition of loan approval requires the borrowing team to show that the visiting team will enjoy increased revenue in the new stadium, the documents reveal.

mcan
04-03-2006, 05:59 PM
man jsp, you really are cranky today


He's just making sense...


This article fits this mold: Get specific. The more specific you are, the less people will look at the big picture. You get really close and look at everything with a microscope and use dark and sinister language, and all of the sudden, going out to check your mail looks like a conspiracy.

And when the person accused says, "Hey, look at the big picture," it looks like they're trying to dodge the issue. But really, they just don't care about what you're saying because to them, YOU'RE a loony. They're just going out to check the mail, and you're calling them a crook.

Stadiums are publicly funded because teams bring people into the market. If the Chiefs/Royals left, a lot of people wouldn't want to live here. So, we keep them happy by footing the bill for places for them to play... NICE places. In fact, if our places are only nice, and other places are REALLY NICE, then they'll leave. So we have to make them really nice. Yes, they get rich off of really nice facilities, but that's not wrong. In fact, that's the whole point they started the damned league. The city wins, the team wins, the players win, the fans win. In fact, the only people who lose are taxpayers who don't like the NFL and work at a mom and pop shops where the owner and all the customers HATE the NFL, but he still has to pay taxes on the stadium. So, here... Meet Earl... He's the one guy...

The fact that PSLs aren't taxed only HELPS the situation... Why the hell would ANYBODY involved want the federal government taking money from the pool used to build a stadium that is only there to help the local government keep NFL teams? That would just mean the fans would be getting double dipped.

Mr. Laz
04-03-2006, 06:05 PM
man jsp, you really are cranky today
he's pretty much always cranky


i have the "cranky" reputation ... he has the "cranky" reality :p

cookster50
04-03-2006, 06:40 PM
I have two problems with this article.

1. "The fans pay a huge share". Name me one business where the customer doesn't foot the bill. That's how business works. The writer makes it sound like it's some kind of screw job, when it's no different than a price increase at the grocery store to pay for their expansion. The "fan" (customer) is always responsible for the cost of doing business, otherwise the business fails.



I have to reply to this. There is a huge difference. The fan isn't the only one paying this tax, EVERY FREAKING RESIDENT OF THE FREAKING COUNTY would be paying it! NOT EVERYONE IS A FAN!!! If you want to put something on the ballot that would be a user fee only, I'm sure it would pass with no problems. That will never happen, but that would be the only way that only the "fan" would be paying for it.

cookster50
04-03-2006, 06:43 PM
Oh, and I'm not saying taxpayers shouldn't build stadiums, that is not reality. I live in reality. I'm just trying to make the point that you are saying the fan pays for it, well, it is more than just the fan.

jspchief
04-03-2006, 07:11 PM
I have to reply to this. There is a huge difference. The fan isn't the only one paying this tax, EVERY FREAKING RESIDENT OF THE FREAKING COUNTY would be paying it! NOT EVERYONE IS A FAN!!! If you want to put something on the ballot that would be a user fee only, I'm sure it would pass with no problems. That will never happen, but that would be the only way that only the "fan" would be paying for it.From a narrow point if view, that's true. but you have to look at the reason cities use tax dollars on pro sports teams in the first place. It's about building an overall better quality of life. The customer in this case isn't just Chiefs fans, that's a lot of money for a small portion of the population. It's residents of Jackson county and Kansas City. The product they are buying is a city that is desireable to live in.

Here's a good article that touches on what a team brings to a city, and what the government has in mind when they put this kind of tax money into a privately owned pro franchise.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/special_packages/stadiums/14133380.htm

shaneo69
04-03-2006, 08:11 PM
That's absurd. It's not "professional football dollars". It's "entertainment dollars". And when the Chiefs get too expensive, people start spending those entertainment dollars elsewhere. Every year fans stop buying tickets because it's become too expensive.

Where do you think the money comes from to build that grocery store? It comes from the "fans". The people that spend their money on the product that store is selling.

As for tax increases building grocery stores, I guess you've never heard of the government giving out tax credits and abatements to stimulate economic growth. When a government uses tax breaks to lure in corporations and stimulate the economy, they are essentially spending future tax dollars to get those companies to build in their city (not unlike an NFL owner spending future ticket profits on a stadium renovation).


St. Louis reality: Schnucks and Dierbergs are the big grocery chains in St. Louis. Schnucks had an old ('70's) store in Eureka, MO. The Wal-Mart in Eureka switched to a "Super" Wal-Mart, selling groceries at lower prices than Schnucks, but without the variety. In order to compete, Schnucks built a brand new store in Eureka and closed their old store. I guarantee you that the Eureka government gave them no tax incentives to build a bigger, more modern store. And they couldn't raise their prices too much or else people would simply drive the extra half mile to Super Wal-Mart. Grocery stores do not get the same benefits as sports teams. You may think all businesses are similar, but you'd be wrong.

Another St. Louis reality: the baseball Cardinals wanted a new stadium to replace Busch. The St. Louis voters told them to f*ck off. With the Illinois side of the Mississippi river offering major incentives to build the new stadium on that side of the river, the Cardinals' owners proved that not all owners are cheap-ass, greedy, unloyal bastards and decided to build the stadium in downtown St. Louis using their own money, for the most part. In addition, on the land that the old Busch stood (which is now a big hole), they are building two blocks' worth of new development to include residential, retail, and bars and restaurants. So I have no sympathy for poor Lamar's plight.

jspchief
04-03-2006, 08:46 PM
Another St. Louis reality: the baseball Cardinals wanted a new stadium to replace Busch. The St. Louis voters told them to f*ck off. With the Illinois side of the Mississippi river offering major incentives to build the new stadium on that side of the river, the Cardinals' owners proved that not all owners are cheap-ass, greedy, unloyal bastards and decided to build the stadium in downtown St. Louis using their own money, for the most part. In addition, on the land that the old Busch stood (which is now a big hole), they are building two blocks' worth of new development to include residential, retail, and bars and restaurants. So I have no sympathy for poor Lamar's plight.The Cardinals came asking for a stadium on the heels of St Louis building a new football stadium to lure the Rams. A project that was paid for 90% by taxes. There was no way they were going to pony up again for the baseball team only 8 years later. It's an entirely different scenario than what exists with the TSC.

It's not about "poor Lamar's plight". He can pay for it himself. But he doesn't have to. Some city somewhere is going to be willing to do what Jackson county and KC is not willing to do. He's not going to start making stupid business decisions based on you calling him greedy.

The idea that these owners should just throw their money around just because they have a bunch of it is idiotic. They are doing this for the same reason you go put in your 40 hours a week. To make money.

shaneo69
04-03-2006, 09:03 PM
The idea that these owners should just throw their money around just because they have a bunch of it is idiotic. They are doing this for the same reason you go put in your 40 hours a week. To make money.

I don't buy the "this is Lamar's business" argument. His business was oil. I would hope at some point Lamar would look around and say, you know, KC has treated me pretty well for the past 43 years. Maybe it's time I gave a little back, without having some ulterior motive.

But to be honest, after giving Carl/Lamar my season ticket money for 17 years before finally getting the f*ck out, I really don't want to see those bastards get a dime more from this community. At this point, I'd rather see Gretz huff 'n puff on the official website about how Lamar now has every right to take the team elsewhere than hear about the smart decision Jackson County made in giving Lamar/Carl everything they wanted to help them make more money off KC.

Hammock Parties
04-03-2006, 09:06 PM
I don't buy the "this is Lamar's business" argument. His business was oil.

Lamar's DADDY'S business was oil.

Lamar's business has been the AFL/Chiefs

shaneo69
04-03-2006, 09:12 PM
Lamar's DADDY'S business was oil.

Lamar's business has been the AFL/Chiefs

All I know is...the best decision the St. Louis voters ever made was to tell Bidwell to f*ck off. At this point, I wouldn't say Lamar's any better of an owner than Bidwell.

Mark M
04-03-2006, 09:13 PM
Actually, Lamar's business is underground storage, amusement parks (at one time) professional sports, et al.

The guy's pretty diversified.

Not that it matters. He and Glass should put a bit more into the deal, IMHO.

MM
~~:shrug:

ChiefsCountry
04-03-2006, 09:45 PM
All I know is...the best decision the St. Louis voters ever made was to tell Bidwell to f*ck off. At this point, I wouldn't say Lamar's any better of an owner than Bidwell.

Are you a dumb a$$? Lamar founded a league, named the Super Bowl, won a Super Bowl, pushed the 2 point conversion in. Name one thing that Bidwell has done.

Ozarks-Chiefs-Fan
04-03-2006, 09:54 PM
All I know is...the best decision the St. Louis voters ever made was to tell Bidwell to f*ck off. At this point, I wouldn't say Lamar's any better of an owner than Bidwell.

man your bitter