Can the Chiefs do it? Even with a first year head coach?

[kcirnamffoh]

I've never been one to pick any team to go all the way with a first year HC. Why should I think any different about the 2006 Chiefs? I can only think of ONE first year HC who's ever won the SB (there's probably one of two more, any help?). Jon Grunden with the Bucs. He inherited perhaps the best defense ever assembled.

Ironically, he played against the team he coached for the previous four years, therefore, the Raiders were also in with a first year HC, as well. The odds of that were enormous. Two first year coaches in the SB. Winning the SB with a first year HC "bucs" the odds.

KC's window of opportunity could close this year. So many veterans on their last legs. Green, not withstanding, will be nothing without Shields, Roaf and Kennison. Gonzalos will begin to descend just the same. The defense has been patched together into what possibly could be a top ten. This seems to be a season for the Chiefs when it has to be done NOW or more of same in the future...mediocrity.

First year HC coming in with a seemingly one year window?

What are the odds?

[greg63]

I've never been one to pick any team to go all the way with a first year HC. Why should I think any different about the 2006 Chiefs?...

You shouldn't.

[Taco John]

What are the odds?


Well, the books I've looked at have the KC odds at 15-1... But I'm pretty sure they haven't noticed that it's Herm who is your coach yet... :)

[Rausch]

First year HC coming in with a seemingly one year window?

What are the odds?

Herm isn't a first year HC and our window isn't only 1 year...

[greg63]

Herm isn't a first year HC and our window isn't only 1 year...

Yep!

[kcirnamffoh]

Let me rephrase that. First year with the HC. You know what I meant. Do the Chiefs have what it takes to do it?

Why shouldn't this be considered as the last year of opportunity? Chiefs have one of the oldest teams. An offense, so formidible has crucial veterans now in their last seasons of productivity. Replacements are youthful. The days of number one offense are numbered after this season if they can even do it with a "first year" OC.

Doesn't look good. Edwards would be coach of the decade to pull this off. There's also the intangible. Playoff experience. Very few if any teams who haven't won at least a playoff game in recent seasons make a champion. Why would the Chiefs be any different? This year or next.

[Halfcan]

Cause we have CRED!

[Halfcan]

St Louis did it with a stock, boy as QB. Tampa was the joke of the NFL. Every year, some team pulls it together and wins it all.

Why can't it be the Chiefs??

[58-4ever]

St Louis did it with a stock, boy as QB. Tampa was the joke of the NFL. Every year, some team pulls it together and wins it all.

Why can't it be the Chiefs??

because everyone on here wouldn't have so much to bitch about.

[KCChiefsMan]

didn't jon gruden win it all in his first year with the bucs?

[greg63]

St Louis did it with a stock, boy as QB. Tampa was the joke of the NFL. Every year, some team pulls it together and wins it all.

Why can't it be the Chiefs??


Hey works for me bud, but I gotta see it to believe it. :thumb:


Well, I'm dozing off in front of my monitor so I'm turning in.


Nite Planet!

[Deberg_1990]

If we can generate a consistant pass rush, stop teams on critical 3rd downs and sign Ty Law, this team could go deep into the playoffs. Definately.

[Rausch]

Let me rephrase that. First year with the HC. You know what I meant. Do the Chiefs have what it takes to do it?

His coaching decisions warrant a thread of all their own but he's a damn good scout of draft talent (I'd say similar to Cowher) and he's a very good motivator.

He upset the Colts (yeah, guess someone had to) and damn near beat the Steelers (lost by a fg) who went to the AFC Championchip game that year.

Both of those teams were average, at best, during the regular season.

Herm has been BETTER in the playoffs than the regular season.

I'm ready for that kind of fortune-inversion...

[tk13]

Our window is more than one year because Larry Johnson's "window" is more than one year. Our defense will get better. We're going to become a more physical team. We have a stud RB and good young defensive players... we won't go down the tubes. Just don't burn LJ out.

[Over-Head]

I think someone threw a rock through our window out in Oaktown :(

[dj56dt58]

because everyone on here wouldn't have so much to bitch about.
You underrate us....

[alanm]

didn't jon gruden win it all in his first year with the bucs?
Gruden did. George Seifert did with the Niners and I believe Switzer did with the Cowboys as well. That is win a SB in their 1st year as HC. Probably someone else as well.

[milkman]

If we can generate a consistant pass rush, stop teams on critical 3rd downs and sign Ty Law, this team could go deep into the playoffs. Definately.

If we can generate a consistent pass rush, and stop teams on critical 3rd gowns, then this team won't need Ty Law.

[chiefsfaninNC]

There are still too many questions to get too excited yet.

Coaching: Although I feel that Herm will be a better HC than the cry baby, how will the offense fair without Al Saunders.

Offense: Can LJ stay healthy carrying the ball 50 times a game, and will he keep his motivation now that he has been crowned the starter. Can receivers hang onto the ball this year? Can the OL stay healthy since most are nearing Skip's age?

Defense: Our achilles heel and biggest question. Can Tamba contribute immediately and have a Jared Allen like season. Will Sims finally contribute? Can the DL be better against the run and provide a pass rush. What about the Defensive Backs? Will we bring in another corner? Can they learn to cover anyone?

[StcChief]

[quote=chiefsfininNC Offense: Can LJ stay healthy carrying the ball 50 times a game[/quote]
They better not be running him anywhere near that.
35 tops.

Remains to be see if Tamba has DE push to be major factor like Allen on other DE. I'm Optomistic.
Rotation of
DTs Edwards,Allen,Dolton,Browning,Sims
Should be better up front.

LBs - DJ,Bell,Mitchell, BUs Fox,Scanlon,Grigsby
If the rust is off Bell and he is completely ready much better.

CB - Surtain, Battle, Walls, Sapp, Hodge,
Maxey, TyLaw?
Overall improvement with Better D minded coaching.

S - Knight, Wesley, Bartee, Pollard, Page

Hopefully Pollard can make good improvement
Challenge Wesley

Woods gone....


We should make the playoffs, anything can happen then.

[Adept Havelock]

Jon Grunden with the Bucs. He inherited perhaps the best defense ever assembled.


:rolleyes:

I was unaware the Bucs fielded the defense of the '76 Steelers, '85 bears, '00 Ravens, "Gang Green" of the '89-'91 Eagles, '69 Chiefs, '62 Packers, '71 Vikings, or '77 Cowboys.

Gruden won the SB because he was in R. Gannon's head the entire game. :thumb:

[Lzen]

I don't see why not. This team should've been in the playoffs last year. In pretty much any other year, a 10-6 team makes the playoffs. There were a couple games that I can think of that this team should've won, as well. I know, "shoulda, coulda, woulda, etc.". Herm should be able to do what DV couldn't - improve the defense enough to make this team more complete and become a serious challenger.

I know a lot of folks are concerned about the offense with Al Saunders gone. I'm not so concerned and here's why. We've seen veteran groups excel in the NFL (and other sports) with a new coach despite that coach being mediocre or worse as a coach. For proof, just look at the Raiders in Callahan's first year. I think the Chiefs offense has been together long enough to continue to be one of the best in the league no matter who is the coordinator.

[ck_IN]

<i>Gruden did. George Seifert did with the Niners and I believe Switzer did with the Cowboys as well. That is win a SB in their 1st year as HC. Probably someone else as well.</i>

The difference is that those teams were all loaded. This team isn't. Our Oline is ancient. We do have a stud RB but our WR's are questionable. Our DT rotation is weak. The DE's should be better and the LB's should be fine. However the DB's are still a question. Knight is one of the slowest safety's in the game. Surtain should cover one side but who cover's the other? Which Wesley will show up?

This team is a few years from a serious SB run. By then age will have caught up with the current roster.

[CupidStunt]

How's coaching such a hugeeee question? Replacing Vermeil with a donut would've been an upgrade.

[FloridaMan88]

How's coaching such a hugeeee question? Replacing Vermeil with a donut would've been an upgrade.

Yeah because Vermeil took 2 different teams to the Super Bowl and won the Super Bowl with one of those teams, but any "donut" can do that :shake:

I'll take Vermeil/Al Saunders over the proven failure that is Martyball anyday.

[jspchief]

In pretty much any other year, a 10-6 team makes the playoffs. This was only the fourth time in NFL history that a team with ten wins did not make the post season.

I'm not saying the '05 Chiefs were a Super Bowl team, but the were certainly play-off caliber. I don't think Edwards has to reinvent the wheel to make this team a serious post-season threat. If we get half the gain in defensive improvement that we got last year, and a more consistent effort from the entire team, there's no reason to think we can't win the division and be a tough play-off opponent.

I doubt we'll be in the Superbowl, but I don't think it's overly optimistic to expect a play-off berth, and even a play-off win.

[Skip Towne]

Yeah because Vermeil took 2 different teams to the Super Bowl and won the Super Bowl with one of those teams, but any "donut" can do that :shake:

I'll take Vermeil/Al Saunders over the proven failure that is Martyball anyday.
You're retarded. Vermiel was a complete bust as the Chiefs coach. One playoff appearance in 5 years and zero playoff wins. THAT is proven failure.

[FloridaMan88]

You're retarded. Vermiel was a complete bust as the Chiefs coach. One playoff appearance in 5 years and zero playoff wins. THAT is proven failure.

Completely rebuilding a team, including building one of the most dominant offenses in the league is a "proven failure"?

[milkman]

Completely rebuilding a team, including building one of the most dominant offenses in the league is a "proven failure"?

If he completely rebuilt the team, then we'd have a defense in KC now, to go along with that oofense.

So, yes he failed.

[jspchief]

Completely rebuilding a team, including building one of the most dominant offenses in the league is a "proven failure"?In regards to what Vermeil did for KC, he's no better than Marty Schottenheimer. The only difference is he did it with offense instead of defense.

My personal opinion is they were both good coaches that brought us great eras of Chiefs football, but neither was able to accomplish top tier success.

[FloridaMan88]

In regards to what Vermeil did for KC, he's no better than Marty Schottenheimer. The only difference is he did it with offense instead of defense.

My personal opinion is they were both good coaches that brought us great eras of Chiefs football, but neither was able to accomplish top tier success.

Maybe then it wasn't Vermeil, or Marty for that matter who was the "complete failure", but instead it is the one constant during both of those coach's tenures in KC... Carl Peterson who is the "complete failure".

[CupidStunt]

Yeah because Vermeil took 2 different teams to the Super Bowl and won the Super Bowl with one of those teams

And how many of those teams reside in Kansas City, MO?

I could give a shit what he did a decade ago or MULTIPLE decades ago.

[greg63]

Maybe then it wasn't Vermeil, or Marty for that matter who was the "complete failure", but instead it is the one constant during both of those coach's tenures in KC... Carl Peterson who is the "complete failure".Neither coach, nor Peterson for that matter, did enough to get the talent needed on both sides of the ball. IMO

[FloridaMan88]

And how many of those teams reside in Kansas City, MO?

I could give a shit what he did a decade ago or MULTIPLE decades ago.


The 2000 Super Bowl was a decade ago?

For the people who call Vermeil a complete failure in KC and want to blame everything that happened the past 5 years on Vermeil the fact is Vermeil was successful in his two other previous coaching jobs, in terms of winning playoff games and taking the Eagles and the Rams to the Super Bowl.

Vermeil's main failure in KC, was the same failure that Marty and even Gunther had in KC... their inability to overcome Peterson's incompetence.

[Bob Dole]

Defense: Our achilles heel and biggest question. Can Tamba contribute immediately and have a Jared Allen like season.

Bob Dole's gut says Hali won't contribute much until his 2nd year, after he's put on some mass.

Bob Dole hopes he is wrong.

[milkman]

The 2000 Super Bowl was a decade ago?

For the people who call Vermeil a complete failure in KC and want to blame everything that happened the past 5 years on Vermeil the fact is Vermeil was successful in his two other previous coaching jobs, in terms of winning playoff games and taking the Eagles and the Rams to the Super Bowl.

Vermeil's main failure in KC, was the same failure that Marty and even Gunther had in KC... their inability to overcome Peterson's incompetence.

Dick succeeded in in both Philly and StL because they were NFL bottom feeders for years, and had high draft picks for a number of years before he got there.

In KC, he had to be a part of the rebuilding process, and he, along with Carl, and the defensive coaching staff failed on that side of the ball.

[chiefsfan1963]

The 2000 Super Bowl was a decade ago?

For the people who call Vermeil a complete failure in KC and want to blame everything that happened the past 5 years on Vermeil the fact is Vermeil was successful in his two other previous coaching jobs, in terms of winning playoff games and taking the Eagles and the Rams to the Super Bowl.

Vermeil's main failure in KC, was the same failure that Marty and even Gunther had in KC... their inability to overcome Peterson's incompetence.

great post!
:clap:

DV has left a much better team than Marty ever did for his successor.

I believe Herm will continue where DV left off, but will focus more on our D and leave the O alone. I believe their is a good group of young players starting to show their value and our window of opportunity is no longer a factor.

A lot of credit will have to go to DV if Herm can get the chiefs to the playoffs and beyond this season.

[milkman]

great post!
:clap:

DV has left a much better team than Marty ever did for his successor.

I believe Herm will continue where DV left off, but will focus more on our D and leave the O alone. I believe their is a good group of young players starting to show their value and our window of opportunity is no longer a factor.

A lot of credit will have to go to DV if Herm can get the chiefs to the playoffs and beyond this season.

Did he really?

Didn't Gunt go 9-7 in his first season as HC with pretty much the same team that Marty left, and just miss the playoffs?

[chiefsfan1963]

Did he really?

Didn't Gunt go 9-7 in his first season as HC with pretty much the same team that Marty left, and just miss the playoffs?

stop kidding yourself. it's embarrassing. :rolleyes:

[milkman]

stop kidding yourself. it's embarrassing. :rolleyes:

In other words, you don't have an answer.

So, unless you have some worthwhile comment to add, go **** yourself.

[FAX]

First year coach. Smirst smear smoach.

Half of our offensive line could be assistant coaches on most teams. I'm going full on homer this year. Our schedule looks good to me.

FAX

[htismaqe]

The 2000 Super Bowl was a decade ago?

For the people who call Vermeil a complete failure in KC and want to blame everything that happened the past 5 years on Vermeil the fact is Vermeil was successful in his two other previous coaching jobs, in terms of winning playoff games and taking the Eagles and the Rams to the Super Bowl.

Vermeil's main failure in KC, was the same failure that Marty and even Gunther had in KC... their inability to overcome Peterson's incompetence.

Carl Peterson gave Dick Vermeil EVERY player he asked for, except for Tyler Brayton.

Nice try, but Dick Vermeil is to blame for Dick Vermeil's failure here.

[htismaqe]

Bob Dole's gut says Hali won't contribute much until his 2nd year, after he's put on some mass.

Bob Dole hopes he is wrong.

Bob Dole IS wrong. :D

According to Larry Johnson Senior, Hali at 275 is at his ideal playing weight. He actually played 10 pounds heavier as a junior, playing inside.

Come training camp, he'll show that he can start right away.

[Bob Dole]

Bob Dole IS wrong. :D

According to Larry Johnson Senior, Hali at 275 is at his ideal playing weight. He actually played 10 pounds heavier as a junior, playing inside.

Come training camp, he'll show that he can start right away.

Bob Dole hopes you're right.

[Over-Head]

The 2000 Super Bowl was a decade ago?

For the people who call Vermeil a complete failure in KC and want to blame everything that happened the past 5 years on Vermeil the fact is Vermeil was successful in his two other previous coaching jobs, in terms of winning playoff games and taking the Eagles and the Rams to the Super Bowl.

Vermeil's main failure in KC, was the same failure that Marty and even Gunther had in KC... their inability to overcome Peterson's incompetence.

EXACTLY!
KC has the same fundamental problem we have in Oakland.Someone who just won’t listen.
Had Al listened to Chuckie we’d have a 4th Lombardie sitting in the window.
Instead we have a coach he fired years ago, who hired someone even more incompetent as he is, then added a shaky QB, who has some of the best receivers out there to make look stupid.
Oh yeah can you say 4-12 season AGAIN?:banghead:
When will Al just roll over and die?:deevee:

[Chief Roundup]

Can the DL be better against the run

Uh man we were awfully good against the run last year considering that we faced the majority of the top backs in the league.

[milkman]

Uh man we were awfully good against the run last year considering that we faced the majority of the top backs in the league.

No we weren't.

We were just so pathetic against the pass that teams didn't feel the need to actually test our run D.

Against a team that had to rely on their RB in the Giants and Tiki Barber, we were every bit as pathetic against the run as against the pass.

[CupidStunt]

For the people who call Vermeil a complete failure in KC and want to blame everything that happened the past 5 years on Vermeil the fact is Vermeil was successful in his two other previous coaching jobs, in terms of winning playoff games and taking the Eagles and the Rams to the Super Bowl.

But such a fact has no relevance on what he did in KC.

Chief fans don't (or shouldn't) give a crap what he did in other cities.

I'm not going to forgive his mediocre tenure here because he won elsewhere.

[Chief Roundup]

No we weren't.

We were just so pathetic against the pass that teams didn't feel the need to actually test our run D.

Against a team that had to rely on their RB in the Giants and Tiki Barber, we were every bit as pathetic against the run as against the pass.

We were the 7th ranked rushing D allowing 98.1 yds per game.
Break down per game.
Jets 20 for 57 long of 11 yds
Raiders 15 for 59 long of 18 yds
Denver 22 for 154 long of 44 yds and 39 yds
Eagles 13 for 29 long of 8 yds
Redskins 25 for 91 long of 13 yds
Dolphins 14 for 94 long of 65 yds
Chargers 20 for 79 long of 15 yds
Raiders 20 for 98 long of 13 yds
Bills 24 for 69 long of 13 yds
Texans 16 for 75 long of 15 yds
Patriots 10 for 43 long of 12 yds
Denver 18 for 93 long of 15 yds
Cowboys 27 for 123 long of 28 yds
Giants 31 for 228 long of 55 yds - Barber the only single rusher over 100 with 220 yds.
Chargers 19 for 78 long of 20 yds
Bengals 18 for 28 long of 7 yds

Sure there milkman the only game you can throw up is the Giants game and as I noted above it is the only game that we gave up 100+ yds to a single rusher.

[htismaqe]

We were the 7th ranked rushing D allowing 98.1 yds per game.
Break down per game.
Jets 20 for 57 long of 11 yds
Raiders 15 for 59 long of 18 yds
Denver 22 for 154 long of 44 yds and 39 yds
Eagles 13 for 29 long of 8 yds
Redskins 25 for 91 long of 13 yds
Dolphins 14 for 94 long of 65 yds
Chargers 20 for 79 long of 15 yds
Raiders 20 for 98 long of 13 yds
Bills 24 for 69 long of 13 yds
Texans 16 for 75 long of 15 yds
Patriots 10 for 43 long of 12 yds
Denver 18 for 93 long of 15 yds
Cowboys 27 for 123 long of 28 yds
Giants 31 for 228 long of 55 yds - Barber the only single rusher over 100 with 220 yds.
Chargers 19 for 78 long of 20 yds
Bengals 18 for 28 long of 7 yds

Sure there milkman the only game you can throw up is the Giants game and as I noted above it is the only game that we gave up 100+ yds to a single rusher.

1) You started your post with a useless statistic -- yards per game are meaningless by themselves.

2) The average NFL game is about 130 plays - 65 per side. We faced 20 or more rushes only 8 times, and faced 25 rushes or more only 3 times.

We averaged 98.1 yards per game because teams didn't have to, or didn't feel the need to, run on us.

[jspchief]

1) You started your post with a useless statistic -- yards per game are meaningless by themselves.

2) The average NFL game is about 130 plays - 65 per side. We faced 20 or more rushes only 8 times, and faced 25 rushes or more only 3 times.

We averaged 98.1 yards per game because teams didn't have to, or didn't feel the need to, run on us.
I think both of you guys are making it too black and white with the use of statistics

Yes, we saw a reduced number of attempts, but so did a lot of good run defenses. Part of it surely was our poor pass D, but to claim it had nothing to do with our run defense is dishonest IMO. Even if we had seen a more avg attempts against, we still would have been around middle of the league in yds per game.

This team was greatly improved against the run. There were a lot of games where we stoned the other team save one or two tackles. I don't think it's that large of a gap to close to eliminate the occasional big runs that kept our run D from being great.

Statistics aside, this team was tough against the run. I saw it week after week. The NYG game is the only one where we looked truly aweful.

[milkman]

I think both of you guys are making it too black and white with the use of statistics

Yes, we saw a reduced number of attempts, but so did a lot of good run defenses. Part of it surely was our poor pass D, but to claim it had nothing to do with our run defense is dishonest IMO. Even if we had seen a more avg attempts against, we still would have been around middle of the league in yds per game.

This team was greatly improved against the run. There were a lot of games where we stoned the other team save one or two tackles. I don't think it's that large of a gap to close to eliminate the occasional big runs that kept our run D from being great.

Statistics aside, this team was tough against the run. I saw it week after week. The NYG game is the only one where we looked truly aweful.

I agree, to an extent, that the defense improved against the run, but I also think that the stats are misleading to some extent.

To claim that we were "awfully good against the run" is a little too enthusiastic.

[htismaqe]

I think both of you guys are making it too black and white with the use of statistics

Yes, we saw a reduced number of attempts, but so did a lot of good run defenses. Part of it surely was our poor pass D, but to claim it had nothing to do with our run defense is dishonest IMO. Even if we had seen a more avg attempts against, we still would have been around middle of the league in yds per game.

This team was greatly improved against the run. There were a lot of games where we stoned the other team save one or two tackles. I don't think it's that large of a gap to close to eliminate the occasional big runs that kept our run D from being great.

Statistics aside, this team was tough against the run. I saw it week after week. The NYG game is the only one where we looked truly aweful.

Actually, I'm just using stats to support what I observed on the field. I saw a team that could play very disciplined in stretches but broke down at the worst possible times. I saw a team that lacked focus and at times, looked like like they lacked heart.

Yes, they were improved against the run. But they weren't GOOD.

[Chief Roundup]

I agree, to an extent, that the defense improved against the run, but I also think that the stats are misleading to some extent.

To claim that we were "awfully good against the run" is a little too enthusiastic.
I suppose you would like awfully improved against the run. If you take that one game against the Giants and take away just 50 yds from the total and it puts us in the top 5 against the run.
That is IMO awfully good against the run. Maybe that is just because of what I have seen from our D in the past. I do believe if anyone would of told the Planet that our D would of been ranked anywhere in the top 10 in any category they would of been laughed at and run off the Planet as well.

[htismaqe]

I suppose you would like awfully improved against the run. If you take that one game against the Giants and take away just 50 yds from the total and it puts us in the top 5 against the run.
That is IMO awfully good against the run. Maybe that is just because of what I have seen from our D in the past. I do believe if anyone would of told the Planet that our D would of been ranked anywhere in the top 10 in any category they would of been laughed at and run off the Planet as well.

If, if, if, and if.

Bullshit.

You can't just throw out the parts of the performance that you don't like...

[jspchief]

If, if, if, and if.

Bullshit.

You can't just throw out the parts of the performance that you don't like...I wouldn't exactly use one bad game as a statement on the entire D either. It's not like anyone looks at the Buffalo game as evidence that our offense sucks.

[milkman]

I suppose you would like awfully improved against the run. If you take that one game against the Giants and take away just 50 yds from the total and it puts us in the top 5 against the run.
That is IMO awfully good against the run. Maybe that is just because of what I have seen from our D in the past. I do believe if anyone would of told the Planet that our D would of been ranked anywhere in the top 10 in any category they would of been laughed at and run off the Planet as well.

No, I would like that "We improved against the run, but there's still work to do."

Like Parker said, you can't just simply throw out the games you don't like.

That Giant game exposed the fact that there is still a good deal of room for improvement.

The YPC stat also indicate the need for continued improvement.

The stats you use to support your side of the issue are fair indicators that we are on the path of improvement.

We appear to be on the right path, and there's hope we'll continue down that path.