Anybody watching "Heavy: the Story of Metal" on VH1?

[htismaqe]

It's a 4-part documentary about the history of heavy metal music.

I love shows like this. I think everybody that loves music has a bit of nostalgia in them, even if they've outgrown a certain type of music. Beyond that, I'm a history buff (my major in college) and I take great interest in studying origins and development...the whole timeline thing...

Episode 1 was about the roots of metal. They profiled Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin and the two different schools of music that rose out of it. Then they profiled Alice Cooper and KISS and their influence on metal, the introduction of theatrics and horror elements into the music.

Episode 2 was my favorite. It was about the re-emergence of metal from near death in the late 70's and they focused on British metal. They profiled Judas Priest and Iron Maiden. They kind of did a 15-minute teaser at the end about the emerging US Los Angeles rock scene and profiled Van Halen as well as Def Leppard and the MTV thing.

[alpha_omega]

Yep...my wife sat in agony as we watched all 4 nights this week.

She kept saying..."i hate that song, i hate that band"...until they got to the part about the power ballads...then it was "I like Poison, Warrant...etc."

All in all...a very good series. I would suggest that anyone who likes or liked heavy music check it out.

[KcMizzou]

I saw parts of this the other night. It's "Metal Month" on VH1, so I'm sure it'll be on again. Good stuff.

[Reaper16]

Maybe I should watch it. I dodn't because everything else VH1 produced that had to do with metal was cringe inducing.

[Halfcan]

Sounds cool, I will have to check it out.

[Lake]

I was able to catch a few parts of a few episodes. I will have to wait until they run it in a marathon one of these afternoons or nights.

[Lake]

We are all in luck. VH1 Classic will be playing all four parts back to back starting at Noon Today. If you do not have this channel it will be on the regular VH1 begining at six Tonight.

[Demonpenz]

i really don't see alot of metal in some of these bands. To me there is one metal band. PAN ****ING TERA

[Reaper16]

i really don't see alot of metal in some of these bands. To me there is one metal band. PAN ****ING TERA
I'm hoping that this was one of your patented sarcasm posts.

[Reaper16]

This show is getting progressively worse. It's really enjoyable at times, and just boring at others. (Those times when non metal bands are being discussed, like Kiss or Van Halen) Unfortunately, hour 3 looks to be pretty much about the "hair" hard rock bands. Hour 4 needs to cover thrash, plzthx, but the synopsis mentions Korn and Limp Bizkit... not metal at all. I'm worried.

[Lake]

I watched the first two hours. I will watch the last two later on. Reap is correct it does start strong and weaken as it continues. It should have been a history of hard rock. It would have had to include punk though. I am glad that I grew up when I did. It would not have been easy to stay with metal and ignore punk or leave metal and embrace punk. I was in high school when grunge did what punk did to hair rock. I went with grunge at the time. Now as I become older I choose both. I never knew that Def Leppard was the band credited after Kiss with destroying metal. That is what happens when good things go mainstream and are polished up for the masses.

[Reaper16]

I watched the first two hours. I will watch the last two later on. Reap is correct it does start strong and weaken as it continues. It should have been a history of hard rock. It would have had to include punk though. I am glad that I grew up when I did. It would not have been easy to stay with metal and ignore punk or leave metal and embrace punk. I was in high school when grunge did what punk did to hair rock. I went with grunge at the time. Now as I become older I choose both. I never knew that Def Leppard was the band credited after Kiss with destroying metal. That is what happens when good things go mainstream and are polished up for the masses.
good post

[Reaper16]

Finally, in hour 4, they begin to cover Thrash Metal. I could produce a 4 hour documentary on the thrash movement alone. They didn't even give Metallica 20 min. Metallica - unquestionably one of the best and most important bands to ever come out of this country. They only gave passing mention to Megadeth and Slayer. They won't cover Testament, Kreator, Heathen, or any other great thrash acts.

Now they're covering GnR. Later is the obscenely non-metal rap/hard rock movement (Korn, etc). Ugh.

[Lake]

No Testament? No Sepultura? What about Pantera and Gwar? Maybe it was just too hard to try and squeeze roughly thirty-five years into four hours. Maiden did not have enough mention or time either.

[Reaper16]

No Testament? No Sepultura? What about Pantera and Gwar? Maybe it was just too hard to try and squeeze roughly thirty-five years into four hours. Maiden did not have enough mention or time either.
If hour 3 had pertained to metal at all, then we might have seen some ackknowledgement of bands like Pantera. (I was surpirsed they got no play). They could have even spent like 5 minutes a peice on death and black metal. That would have been nice.

[jlscorpio]

It was so awesome to see the 80's era Metallica. Those of us that were in on that scene were luckier than we'll ever know.

[jlscorpio]

The Sabbath/Priest/Maiden stuff was righteous too.
\m/

[Lake]

I watched the last two parts of this. The third part was the worst. The fourth was only slightly better. I did like the remark that hiprock or rap and roll uses Cookie Monster Vocals. It is funny that Quiet Riot is considered to be the band that helped usher in the L.A. Hair Metal Hard Rock Era. It is even more amusing that Motley is the group that started the Power Ballad Fad that proved to be one of the death blows to their fellow hair friends. Too much time was given to discussing Motley and QR and that type of music in general. My guess is that it is because they were all from the U.S. I have never noticed how many of these are from other countries. I thought that Tommy Lee talked up his role and their place a bit much. I was also not too happy with Axl stating that he hoped that he did not have anything in common with Maiden. Neither of those two should have been allowed to talk. It makes it even worse when I remembered that Rollins and the Misfits claimed that they chased down Motley and beat the shit out of them. It was cool that they mentioned how conservatives tried to bring them down and the PMRC. Those parental advisories are a good sign that the music is going to be great. If it does not have one I end up having to ask myself if this is really something that I would want in my home. I am left pondering if Twisted Sister looked goofier with or without all of the makeup. I also did not know and thought that maybe I picked up from the first half of this that Dio has something against Ozzy. Long live the Filthy Fifteen. Always ready to rock.

[htismaqe]

First of all, the show got progressively worse because HEAVY MUSIC GOT PROGRESSIVELY WORSE.

It's a fuggin documentary for Christ's sake. All they did was chronicle what we already knew - money-hungry record companies ****ed up metal by trying to copy and package. They did it with Elvis, the Beatles, Led Zeppelin. What they did to metal wasn't new or different.

Second, just because you guys are bigots and have a strict definition of what is and what isn't metal doesn't mean the show sucked. Music doesn't fit into nice shiny little buckets. One, they were trying to appeal to a broad audience with the show, and two, they're telling a HISTORY. Is KISS' music "metal"? Of course not. Did KISS have a PROFOUND effect on the imagery and stage shows incorporated into later metal acts? You bet your ass they did.

[Reaper16]

First of all, the show got progressively worse because HEAVY MUSIC GOT PROGRESSIVELY WORSE.

It's a fuggin documentary for Christ's sake. All they did was chronicle what we already knew - money-hungry record companies ****ed up metal by trying to copy and package. They did it with Elvis, the Beatles, Led Zeppelin. What they did to metal wasn't new or different.

Second, just because you guys are bigots and have a strict definition of what is and what isn't metal doesn't mean the show sucked. Music doesn't fit into nice shiny little buckets. One, they were trying to appeal to a broad audience with the show, and two, they're telling a HISTORY. Is KISS' music "metal"? Of course not. Did KISS have a PROFOUND effect on the imagery and stage shows incorporated into later metal acts? You bet your ass they did.
Bigot? Shiny buckets? What the **** are you talking about?

If they were truely concerned about telling the history of metal, then they wouldn't have taken an hour + of the 4 hour show to cover the distinctly not metal 80's pop/hard rock movement of LA bands like Poison. They didn't even give 15 minutes to Iron Maiden, and barely gave 15 minutes to Metallica. Forget about anything more than a passing mention for A-List thrash bands like Megadeth and Slayer. Forget about the entire forms of death, black, and doom metal; no time for actual metal when we have to talk about Limpbizkit.

I don't know why you're defending the show in lieu of it's problems. What you said was all well and good, if it was completely accurate.

And again, wtf with the bigot comment?

[htismaqe]

Bigot? Shiny buckets? What the **** are you talking about?

If they were truely concerned about telling the history of metal, then they wouldn't have taken an hour + of the 4 hour show to cover the distinctly not metal 80's pop/hard rock movement of LA bands like Poison. They didn't even give 15 minutes to Iron Maiden, and barely gave 15 minutes to Metallica. Forget about anything more than a passing mention for A-List thrash bands like Megadeth and Slayer. Forget about the entire forms of death, black, and doom metal; no time for actual metal when we have to talk about Limpbizkit.

I don't know why you're defending the show in lieu of it's problems. What you said was all well and good, if it was completely accurate.

And again, wtf with the bigot comment?

In lieu of it's problems? What problems? The fact that they didn't cover the bands you wanted them to?

Look at the bold statement. That's where the "bigot" comment came from. In YOUR definition, that's not metal. In many people's definition, that IS metal. Leaving it out is the WRONG thing to do, because that type of music had an influence on everything that came after it, good or bad. That type of music had a PROFOUND influence on bands like Metallica, or did you completely ignore the Lars Ulrich interview in the fourth episode?

We could argue all day about whether or not Limpbizkit is "metal". Frankly, I don't care, because they SUCK. But I defended the show because it WAS accurate. Of course, when you have a strict definiton of what is and is not "metal" (I've been through this with you many times over, and you know how I feel about strictly categorizing music) you're gonna be offended when a certain band was included or a certain band wasn't. I was disappointed that they didn't even mention Motorhead, particularly when they were a big influence on Metallica.

As for how much time they spent on individual bands, each show was only 60 minutes with commercials figured in. They were trying to focus on themes and movements, not bands. That's the way all good historians do it, and I thought they did a marvelous job.

As I said in my original post, I'm a historian. This is about objectivity. You may not LIKE the LA rock scene of the 80's (I certainly didn't like it either) but leaving it out would be akin to writing a book about the Civil War and leaving out slavery. None of us like it, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[htismaqe]

I just realized how incredibly confrontational my first post sounded.

That's what I get for responding first thing on the first day of the workweek.

[jspchief]

Heh. I opened this thread just to see Reaper's comments on the misuse of the term "metal".

[Reaper16]

What was covered was appropriate, but was very much disproportioned. It was a VH1 show in every way; just gloss over everything that didn't sell 4 million albums. It's not so much what was covered that irked me about the show, it was what was covered more, and what wasn't covered at all.

I will argue day and day out that my opinion has nothing to to with what is or isn't metal. It's 100% the music that the bands in question play. 100%. A lot of the bands that are not metal, but most of the unwashed masses(:)) think are, have been very much influenced by metal. This is evident in the shred guitar style of so many of Poison's ilk. But break them down by music theory and song structure, and they clearly are a hard rock band.

It's a common misconcpetion by most people that metal is just heavier hard rock. Metal takes as much from classical and jazz as it does rock. It truely is a seperate genre of music in and of itself.

And I'm not one of those metalheads that lists 4,2977 different subgenres. The only subgenres that I ackowledge are the ones that are truely different types of music yet still have a common link between them. These are:

Heavy metal
Death metal
Black metal
Thrash metal
I also recognize 3 others, becasue they're so prevalent and they are pretty distinct themselves:
Power metal
Doom metal
Progressive metal

Without going into definitions, these still can all be called metal in terms of song structure and music theory. That's it, though; anything else, "Symphonic Black Metal" for example, is just describing the band's sound. Sure, there are plenty of symphonic black bands; doesn't mean that sound gets it's own genre, because it's still black metal.
So, I don't think my genre stickling is unreasonable.

[Reaper16]

Heh. I opened this thread just to see Reaper's comments on the misuse of the term "metal".
Sould have waited about ten min.

[jspchief]

What was covered was appropriate, but was very much disproportioned. It was a VH1 show in every way; just gloss over everything that didn't sell 4 million albums. Surely you understand that television shows are made to appeal to large numbers of people. While including Pantera or Sepultura may have been more technically accurate, it would only appeal to a very small demographic.

I realize that you're right about the topic, but I'm entertained by your apparent need to continue to fight this hopeless battle. It's like asking for a kleenex and having one person constantly correct you that it's a "facial tissue".

Reaper:Metal = GoChiefs:Star Wars

[HC_Chief]

To mention Slayer in passing just proves that the producers don't know shit about metal. <i>Reign in Blood</i> is quite possibly the most perfectly written and recorded metal album of all time. Yes, it is fast, yes it is extremely dark (some would even say "evil"), but it is pure, uncut metal. THAT is metal in it's purest form IMO.

I've always been fan of punk & hardcore (thus my monicre "Hardcore Chief" - combination of two of my favorite forms of entertainment); not a big fan of "metal". There are exceptions of course... <i>Reign in Blood</i> being primary there. It is the ONLY "metal" album I took the time to learn (on guitar). Heh, I quit playing years ago; but every time I pick up a guitar the first song you will hear will be either "Jesus Saves" or "Raining Blood" :D

[Reaper16]

Surely you understand that television shows are made to appeal to large numbers of people. While including Pantera or Sepultura may have been more technically accurate, it would only appeal to a very small demographic.

I realize that you're right about the topic, but I'm entertained by your apparent need to continue to fight this hopeless battle. It's like asking for a kleenex and having one person constantly correct you that it's a "facial tissue".

Reaper:Metal = GoChiefs:Star Wars
Yeah, it's a character flaw, but I champion the cause of metal education. I will fight the good fight until metal gains some respect. I will die before that happens.

I was actually very much surprised that Pantera didn't get mentioned in hour 4. I'm not a huge fan, but they are very popular. Dimebag's percussive riffing was an immense influence on the "nu-metal" (misnomer) sound of the late 90's, and pretty much on every new hard rock and metal band today. Why? Because they were so popular. Not superstars, but accessible to every kid into metal or hard rock; much like Tool in that respect.

[Reaper16]

To mention Slayer in passing just proves that the producers don't know shit about metal. <i>Reign in Blood</i> is quite possibly the most perfectly written and recorded metal album of all time. Yes, it is fast, yes it is extremely dark (some would even say "evil"), but it is pure, uncut metal. THAT is metal in it's purest form IMO.

I've always been fan of punk & hardcore (thus my monicre "Hardcore Chief" - combination of two of my favorite forms of entertainment); not a big fan of "metal". There are exceptions of course... <i>Reign in Blood</i> being primary there. It is the ONLY "metal" album I took the time to learn (on guitar). Heh, I quit playing years ago; but every time I pick up a guitar the first song you will hear will be either "Jesus Saves" or "Raining Blood" :D
Probably because thrash metal is that beautiful synthesis between metal and punk. RiB was abrasive and fast, much like punk.
That's the beauty of thrash, I think. You're not a big metal guy, but you like thrash. I'm not a big punk guy, and I never listen to hardcore of my own volition, but I love thrash.

[HC_Chief]

Probably because thrash metal is that beautiful synthesis between metal and punk. RiB was abrasive and fast, much like punk.
That's the beauty of thrash, I think. You're not a big metal guy, but you like thrash. I'm not a big punk guy, and I never listen to hardcore of my own volition, but I love thrash.

It definitely depends on the band. Some consider Metallica "thrash"... Megatdeath, Kreator and Sepultura as well (and of course countless other bands). I'm not a fan of those groups, or that particular genre. I appreciate their talent; just can't get into it... too <i>verbose</i>, musically.

The reason I dig RiB is it is succinct. Brutal, grinding, direct. It is most definitely "metal" (which, you have already pointed out, is easily subcategorized), but unlike the aforementioned bands, the music on RiB doesn't dwell on solos and long, over-winded passages. To me, it's like metal bands are enamoured with their own work. RiB does not follow that form - it hits hard and continues, non-stop to the conclusion.

Another metal subcategory that I always liked was "mosh metal". Primary band there was Anthrax. I like "Among the Living", for the most part. The vocals were annoying to me though. Still, some great moshing/pitting riffs and beats. Almost as good as Scott Ian and Charlie's other band: Stormtoopers of Death. "Speak English or Die" is almost on par with RiB :thumb:

[htismaqe]

What was covered was appropriate, but was very much disproportioned. It was a VH1 show in every way; just gloss over everything that didn't sell 4 million albums. It's not so much what was covered that irked me about the show, it was what was covered more, and what wasn't covered at all.

I would argue that the stuff that DID sell "4 million albums" is quite significant. No, it doesn't make it GOOD, it just makes it significant. Take Quiet Riot for instance. I gotta say, they SUCK. And the fact that they sold millions of albums by covering a Slade song that they DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO COVER says alot about them. That being said, what they did in conquering the Billboard Top 40 was VERY important in the history of metal and hard rock music.

I will argue day and day out that my opinion has nothing to to with what is or isn't metal. It's 100% the music that the bands in question play. 100%. A lot of the bands that are not metal, but most of the unwashed masses(:)) think are, have been very much influenced by metal. This is evident in the shred guitar style of so many of Poison's ilk. But break them down by music theory and song structure, and they clearly are a hard rock band.

It's a common misconcpetion by most people that metal is just heavier hard rock. Metal takes as much from classical and jazz as it does rock. It truely is a seperate genre of music in and of itself.

And I'm not one of those metalheads that lists 4,2977 different subgenres. The only subgenres that I ackowledge are the ones that are truely different types of music yet still have a common link between them. These are:

Heavy metal
Death metal
Black metal
Thrash metal
I also recognize 3 others, becasue they're so prevalent and they are pretty distinct themselves:
Power metal
Doom metal
Progressive metal

Without going into definitions, these still can all be called metal in terms of song structure and music theory. That's it, though; anything else, "Symphonic Black Metal" for example, is just describing the band's sound. Sure, there are plenty of symphonic black bands; doesn't mean that sound gets it's own genre, because it's still black metal.
So, I don't think my genre stickling is unreasonable.

DISCLAIMER: This is only my opinion.

I think music theory and song structure are the most overrated terms in heavy rock/metal music. They only exist for the purposes of promoting elitism and denigrating other music that doesn't fit someone's categorization.

[htismaqe]

HC:

I think the reason Slayer got no mention is because they weren't particularly influential, and all-in-all, they weren't super-innovative either. That being said, it doesn't detract at all from RiB, which is one of the best heavy albums ever. I go back, AGAIN :D, to my original post. I watched this because I was interested in the pure, unadulterated history part of it.

Reaper:

I'm very surprised they didn't talk about Pantera or even bands like Suicidal Tendencies. Without that scene in the late 80's, bands like Korn and the like would never have existed.

[HC_Chief]

HC:

I think the reason Slayer got no mention is because they weren't particularly influential, and all-in-all, they weren't super-innovative either. That being said, it doesn't detract at all from RiB, which is one of the best heavy albums ever. I go back, AGAIN :D, to my original post. I watched this because I was interested in the pure, unadulterated history part of it.

Kewl. Any time discussions of harder music surface I like to jump in and add my two cents. Because so much of music appreciation is subjective (could argue ALL of it), I tend to apply my own historical views. Metal/thrash/hardcore/punk, in particular.

In the early 80s I liked Van Halen, but thirsted for more. Diver Down and Van Halen: Van Halen were very good, but kind of empty. Yes, EV was a GOD on guitar, but after accepting that fact and figuring out how to play "hammer-ons" and use delays (Eruption and Cathederal), it just became an exercise in "how many notes can I cram into this stanza"?

I had always been a fan of Black Sabbath... that sound is just hard to resist; but a lot of it was also very boring.

Zeppelin had its moments, but a lot of it was too "bluesy" for me... I liked the harder hitting stuff more. This has changed for me as I've grown older.... LZ is a band I can easily appreciate now; much moreso than when I was younger.

Motley Crue's "Too Fast for Love" and "Shout at the Devil" had some solid, hard-hitting bits, but the whole "fashion" part turned me off (big hair, stupid clothes, and makeup).

Tiwsted Sister had some great songs, but also fell into the fashion trap.

W.A.S.P. played up the fashion bit to gore and excess, which was entertaining, but ultimately empty.

Dio was musically superior, but too theatrical... it was too goofy. King Diamond was also in this category for me, sans the musically superior bit (fer crissakes, what happened to his testicles? That voice was AWFUL!).

Helloween? HA! Euro metal wannabes.
Grim Reaper? HA! Fat Euro metal wannabes.

Iron Maiden had some GREAT albums.... but succinct they were not. I liked "Killers" and "Number of the Beast", but "Piece of Mind" was blovious (with great album art). Same for "Powerslave".

Metallica was there... "Ride the Lightning" had some songs that were simply awesome but again, verbose.

Then there was Slayer. "Haunting the Chapel" sounded, at first, like a chainsaw to me. There was something there though, that was just... pure. "Hell Awaits" had its moments. "Reign in Blood" was perfection. Metal, for me, peaked there.

IMO RiB was VERY influential. I hear direct RiB influence in bands like Deicide, Malevolent Creation, Suffocation, and dozens of others in that genre("death metal").

There were, of course, dozens (if not hundreds) of other metal bands I sampled over the 80s & part of the very early 90s. Just note ONE thing: I have ALWAYS despised "hair metal" e.g. Poision, Whitesnake, Warrant, Cinderella, Def Leppard, etc. That entire bubblegum pop-metal genre sucked balls. It, to this day, still makes me sick to my stomach.

FYI: back in the early 80s (82 or 83) I was at the mall browsing thru the cassettes, looking for a new band to check out. I told the guy working there the style I liked: succinct, hard-hitting... he turned me on to one of my ALL TIME favorite albums: Bad Brains (self-titled). If you have a chance, CHECK IT OUT!!! I have listened to it incessantly for two plus decades :D It is <i>the</i> quintessential hardcore album.

[htismaqe]

Kewl. Any time discussions of harder music surface I like to jump in and add my two cents. Because so much of music appreciation is subjective (could argue ALL of it), I tend to apply my own historical views. Metal/thrash/hardcore/punk, in particular.

In the early 80s I liked Van Halen, but thirsted for more. Diver Down and Van Halen: Van Halen were very good, but kind of empty. Yes, EV was a GOD on guitar, but after accepting that fact and figuring out how to play "hammer-ons" and use delays (Eruption and Cathederal), it just became an exercise in "how many notes can I cram into this stanza"?

I had always been a fan of Black Sabbath... that sound is just hard to resist; but a lot of it was also very boring.

Zeppelin had its moments, but a lot of it was too "bluesy" for me... I liked the harder hitting stuff more. This has changed for me as I've grown older.... LZ is a band I can easily appreciate now; much moreso than when I was younger.

Motley Crue's "Too Fast for Love" and "Shout at the Devil" had some solid, hard-hitting bits, but the whole "fashion" part turned me off (big hair, stupid clothes, and makeup).

Tiwsted Sister had some great songs, but also fell into the fashion trap.

W.A.S.P. played up the fashion bit to gore and excess, which was entertaining, but ultimately empty.

Dio was musically superior, but too theatrical... it was too goofy. King Diamond was also in this category for me, sans the musically superior bit (fer crissakes, what happened to his testicles? That voice was AWFUL!).

Helloween? HA! Euro metal wannabes.
Grim Reaper? HA! Fat Euro metal wannabes.

Iron Maiden had some GREAT albums.... but succinct they were not. I liked "Killers" and "Number of the Beast", but "Piece of Mind" was blovious (with great album art). Same for "Powerslave".

Metallica was there... "Ride the Lightning" had some songs that were simply awesome but again, verbose.

Then there was Slayer. "Haunting the Chapel" sounded, at first, like a chainsaw to me. There was something there though, that was just... pure. "Hell Awaits" had its moments. "Reign in Blood" was perfection. Metal, for me, peaked there.

IMO RiB was VERY influential. I hear direct RiB influence in bands like Deicide, Malevolent Creation, Suffocation, and dozens of others in that genre("death metal").

There were, of course, dozens (if not hundreds) of other metal bands I sampled over the 80s & part of the very early 90s. Just note ONE thing: I have ALWAYS despised "hair metal" e.g. Poision, Whitesnake, Warrant, Cinderella, Def Leppard, etc. That entire bubblegum pop-metal genre sucked balls. It, to this day, still makes me sick to my stomach.

FYI: back in the early 80s (82 or 83) I was at the mall browsing thru the cassettes, looking for a new band to check out. I told the guy working there the style I liked: succinct, hard-hitting... he turned me on to one of my ALL TIME favorite albums: Bad Brains (self-titled). If you have a chance, CHECK IT OUT!!! I have listened to it incessantly for two plus decades :D It is <i>the</i> quintessential hardcore album.

See, to me is just too difficult to try to categorize everything.

The perfect example I can think of is the Scorpions.

Are they metal? They certainly got their start in the technical, classicly-infused, 2-guitar style of Maiden and Priest. But they also loved the sappy power ballads, ala the 80's hair bands. So are the Scorpions an 80's hair band, or are they old school metal? If you decide they're a hair band and not actually metal, where does it end? I mean, an awful lot of "Blackout" sounds like Judas Priest. If the Scorpions aren't metal, then how can Judas Priest be metal? You see where I'm going with this?

It all comes back to your very first paragraph...

[HC_Chief]

See, to me is just too difficult to try to categorize everything.

The perfect example I can think of is the Scorpions.

Are they metal? They certainly got their start in the technical, classicly-infused, 2-guitar style of Maiden and Priest. But they also loved the sappy power ballads, ala the 80's hair bands. So are the Scorpions an 80's hair band, or are they old school metal? If you decide they're a hair band and not actually metal, where does it end? I mean, an awful lot of "Blackout" sounds like Judas Priest. If the Scorpions aren't metal, then how can Judas Priest be metal? You see where I'm going with this?

It all comes back to your very first paragraph...

Scorpions = metal. Yes, they had some sappy power ballads, but I would never categorize them as a hair band.

Priest had sappy 80s power ballad "hair band" moments too... but they're also a metal act, not in the same category as Poison, Warrant, Whitesnake, etc.

Same goes for Ozzy... thought he REALLY pushed the hair band line there for a while.

[htismaqe]

Scorpions = metal. Yes, they had some sappy power ballads, but I would never categorize them as a hair band.

Priest had sappy 80s power ballad "hair band" moments too... but they're also a metal act, not in the same category as Poison, Warrant, Whitesnake, etc.

Same goes for Ozzy... thought he REALLY pushed the hair band line there for a while.

Now you're getting it.

Ozzy REALLY pushed that line..."Momma I'm Coming Home"?!?! :Lin:

Whitesnake is the one that kills me. The whole is not always the sum of the parts.

David Coverdale was in Deep Purple and came from the same lineage as Ronnie James Dio - ie. they both were frontmen in a Richie Blackmore band. In fact, he turned down a gig in 1982 to REPLACE RJD, who had just left Sabbath.

Jon Lord and Ian Paice were both in Deep Purple with Coverdale, they weren't in Whitesnake after the first couple of years though. Cozy Powell was in Richie Blackmore's Rainbow (with Ronnie James Dio, of course).

Anyway, I'm rambling. I'm gonna get started on my "6 degrees of Richie Blackmore" rant again.

[HC_Chief]

Blecch.

This discussion of syrupy gawdawful hair band music has left me feeling unclean. Time for some <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000001Q3T/sr=8-1/qid=1149017639/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-3210046-5671945?%5Fencoding=UTF8">BAD BRAINS</a>!!! :D

[htismaqe]

Blecch.

This discussion of syrupy gawdawful hair band music has left me feeling unclean. Time for some <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000001Q3T/sr=8-1/qid=1149017639/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-3210046-5671945?%5Fencoding=UTF8">BAD BRAINS</a>!!! :D

ROFL

I just can't believe that horrible POS called Whitesnake grew out of one of the best heavy bands of the 1970's. I guess it really was true that Blackmore, not Gillan, made Deep Purple, because Rainbow was pretty good too...

[Mile High Mania]

Love the VH1 series... 70's/80's was greatness. I liked everything from Sabbath to Poison... sue me.

[Reaper16]

I think you've hit most metal on the head with your term of "musical verbosity," HC. Being a progressive music fan, and conversely not a big punk listener, that is what attracted me to the form. I appreciate this musical verbosity very much, unless it gets in the way of songwriting.

Some various thoughts:
Scorpions are heavy metal.
Bad Brains are awesome
Anthrax is thrash, too. I bet you'd like most thrash, HC. Metallica, Megadeth, Heathen, etc. are examples of thrash that expanded on the form - almost a "progressive thrash" or "post-thrash" approach. Most thrash metal bands are less "verbose" and just straight in your face. Try Kreator and Overkill.

Interesting opinion on song structure and music theory, htismaqe. I know that I don't use them to denigrate anything. I see a song's structure and composition as it's genetic makeup. I'm not about to classify an animal with scales that lays eggs (rock) as a mammal (metal). That's how I see those terms; at the basic, definitionary level, there are things that actually define the genre of music.

[Bowser]

Why all the arguing over what sound makes heavy metal? Hell, throughout the show, they kept asking various artists if they could define heavy metal. Most couldn't, and none had the same answer.


And you learn something everyday. I would have sworn HC Chief was an ABBA afficianado. :D

[htismaqe]

Interesting opinion on song structure and music theory, htismaqe. I know that I don't use them to denigrate anything. I see a song's structure and composition as it's genetic makeup. I'm not about to classify an animal with scales that lays eggs (rock) as a mammal (metal). That's how I see those terms; at the basic, definitionary level, there are things that actually define the genre of music.

Yep. You want to put music into phylum, genus, and species. I just can't do it. It doesn't fit. :D

[ChiefFripp]

Everything else is just a footnote to Iron Maiden!

[htismaqe]

Everything else is just a footnote to Iron Maiden!

Every time they cut to Bruce Dickinson in the red room interviews, I thought "Hey, that's the Crocodile Hunter!". :D

[Chiefnj]

I grew up and lived on Sabbath and Ozzy and Priest and Maiden. My interest in metal began to fade just after Metallica's And Justice... That was the last great metal album (IMO).

I saw a Scorpions video the other week on VH1 classics. I still can't understand half of what he's saying in Still Loving You, but it sounds damn good.

[htismaqe]

I grew up and lived on Sabbath and Ozzy and Priest and Maiden. My interest in metal began to fade just after Metallica's And Justice... That was the last great metal album (IMO).

I saw a Scorpions video the other week on VH1 classics. I still can't understand half of what he's saying in Still Loving You, but it sounds damn good.

Sounds eerily similar to me, man...

[Reaper16]

I grew up and lived on Sabbath and Ozzy and Priest and Maiden. My interest in metal began to fade just after Metallica's And Justice... That was the last great metal album (IMO).

If you'd like, I can garuntee that your opinion will change. There have been several all-time classic metal albums released since then.