I like Herm's Coaching Staff other than Gunther

[Logical]

I think it is a great staff, too bad he did not give Gunther the boot.

Krumrie, Gibbs and Solari all get outstanding mentions from me. From watching the camp show it appears that Herm might in reality be our DC so that gives me some hope.

[Hammock Parties]

So...7-9?

[Mr. Kotter]

Gunther Hater. :harumph:

Come on. You just hate him cause he's an immigrant. Or cause he's a REAL man. Don't you? :hmmm:

;)

[Logical]

So...7-9?Nah I am sticking with either 8-8 or 9-7 with a few breaks. Roaf comes back and we can move that up a game, Welbourne and Roaf both come back and make it 11 wins.

[keg in kc]

Wow, I didn't realize Welbourne was such a key to our success.

[Logical]

Wow, I didn't realize Welbourne was such a key to our success.He is not but the whole line being back together as a unit is, at least IMO Keg.

[noa]

Wow, I didn't realize Welbourne was such a key to our success.


Now who are we gonna get our 'roids from?

[Halfcan]

Gun rocks and you will have to eat your words when we have a top ten D this year.

[plbrdude]

even somewhere round 15th would be sweet

[Hammock Parties]

Logical completely discounts the idea that Kevin Sampson might be an adequate replacement for Welbourne.

[Mr. Kotter]

Logical completely discounts the idea that Kevin Sampson might be an adequate replacement for Welbourne.

IMO, with what I saw at camp....Sampson is an upgrade. Not even close. Now, let's cross our fingers and hope he stays healthy.

[milkman]

Gun rocks and you will have to eat your words when we have a top ten D this year.

Gunt sucks rocks.

If this D were to actually achieve a top 10 standing, it will not be Gunts doing.
It will be Hermie's.

[noa]

Logical completely discounts the idea that Kevin Sampson might be an adequate replacement for Welbourne.

Not only that, but the guy calling the plays now understands the line better than anyone, so even if he thinks Sampson is a weak spot, he will take that into account in the playbook. I'm glad that Solari is our offensive coordinator considering all of the turmoil with the OLine right now.

[melbar]

Gun was also the Coordinator for some great D's for the Chiefs and the Raiders as well as a great D-line in S.D. and Great LB corps in Tenn. The only bad D he has ever been in charge of is this one that was decimated by the time he returned, and had bad coaches who didnt fit his style.

[kcxiv]

Gunt sucks rocks.

If this D were to actually achieve a top 10 standing, it will not be Gunts doing.
It will be Hermie's.No way. Dispite what everyone thinks, Guntharr had turned them aroundlast year. They showed alot of flashes of bieng a solid defense.

When going to a new team i always give everyone players and coaches the 3 year rule. 3 years for them to installwhat they need to, and 3 years for a player to learn the system.

[Logical]

Gun rocks and you will have to eat your words when we have a top ten D this year.

LOL I have already set it up so I give the credit to Herm not Gun and that would be the right thing to do.

[Logical]

Logical completely discounts the idea that Kevin Sampson might be an adequate replacement for Welbourne.Completely, no. But Line chemistry will suffer for 6 to 8 games if we have a new line and that will easily make 1 victory difference.

[greg63]

I think Gun is a fine DC, but then again I'm not exactly an expert on the subject.

[Moooo]

No way. Dispite what everyone thinks, Guntharr had turned them aroundlast year. They showed alot of flashes of bieng a solid defense.

When going to a new team i always give everyone players and coaches the 3 year rule. 3 years for them to installwhat they need to, and 3 years for a player to learn the system.

They still have tackling problems... I don't know how or where they get it, but this still appeared every now and again.

Whether you blame it on Gunther, is IMO a main factor in whether or not you think he's doing a good job.

Moooo

[007]

Gun rocks and you will have to eat your words when we have a top ten D this year.


slow down there buddy. You don't go from 26 to top 10 in one year unless you are Chicago.

I say somewhere between 13-17 this year.

[Hammock Parties]

IMO, with what I saw at camp....Sampson is an upgrade. Not even close. Now, let's cross our fingers and hope he stays healthy.

Wow. That's positive. I thought Welbourn was pretty good last year.

[Hammock Parties]

Completely, no. But Line chemistry will suffer for 6 to 8 games if we have a new line and that will easily make 1 victory difference.

Why?

Welbourn missed the first four games last year.

Sampson is going to have an entire training camp and preseason. And he's not going to miss the first four games.

[Chiefs Minor Satellite]

As far as I can tell Herman knows more about what he wants in a DC than you might, or any of us for that matter.

As stated by others in this thread, you might be having a dinner of crow as the season winds up. Gunther is a loser when it comes to the whole package, as in HC, but he is an able DC. With the additional influence by Herman, Cunningham might bring back a defense to make us all proud.

[milkman]

Gun was also the Coordinator for some great D's for the Chiefs and the Raiders as well as a great D-line in S.D. and Great LB corps in Tenn. The only bad D he has ever been in charge of is this one that was decimated by the time he returned, and had bad coaches who didnt fit his style.

Gunt is the greatest coattail rider in the history of the NFL.

[greg63]

slow down there buddy. You don't go from 26 to top 10 in one year unless you are Chicago.

I say somewhere between 13-17 this year.

Which would be far better then last year. ;)

[Lurch]

Gunt is the greatest coattail rider in the history of the NFL.

As someone who's coached football myself, I think you are dead wrong. He's had some talent when he's been good, but there have been many, many more NFL coaches who've had talent and pissed it down their legs. He hasn't done that. If his defenses struggled, it's because he's had to play guys like McCleon, Siavii, Bartee, and Hicks.

[Logical]

As far as I can tell Herman knows more about what he wants in a DC than you might, or any of us for that matter.

As stated by others in this thread, you might be having a dinner of crow as the season winds up. Gunther is a loser when it comes to the whole package, as in HC, but he is an able DC. With the additional influence by Herman, Cunningham might bring back a defense to make us all proud.

People who talk like this paid no attention in the 90s, Gun only had a good d every other year. Great coordinators are not inconsistent like that.

[Hammock Parties]

He hasn't done that. I

Really?

Remember when he was head coach? Our defenses were pretty mediocre. And that was with Hasty, Thomas, etc.

[Chiefs Minor Satellite]

People who talk like this paid no attention in the 90s, Gun only had a good d every other year. Great coordinators are not inconsistent like that.

Your comment is unfounded, you don't know what I was doing in the 90's. What did you not understand about "As far as I can tell Herman knows more about what he wants in a DC than you might, or any of us for that matter."

Herman sees something in Gunther that he likes, the chemistry between the two of them might result in an outcome that you don't expect.

I have heard that fried crow sucks, you might look for some other way to prepare it.

[Lurch]

People who talk like this paid no attention in the 90s, Gun only had a good d every other year. Great coordinators are not inconsistent like that.

That "inconsistency" had as much to do with schedules, FA, and injuries as anything Gun (or any coach) could have. Gun is widely respected by his peers. That matters a hell of a lot more than what some of us geeks have to say about him on a discussion forum.

[Hootie]

I used to think Logical somewhat knew what was going on, but now, I think he's just an idiot. Too bad.

[Lurch]

Really?

Remember when he was head coach? Our defenses were pretty mediocre. And that was with Hasty, Thomas, etc.

As Head Coach, he's no longer the Defensive guy, even if he was the guy. Kurt Schottenheimer, coupled with aging veterans at the end of their career and other teams learning how to game plan for the Chief's D was the issue. And that's something Gun has seemingly learned: keeping it fresh is important. Hence his willingness to adapt schemes to personnel, and to fit in with the HC's philosophy.

Just my perspective.

[Hammock Parties]

My perspective is that Gunther only had a good defense when he had a defensive head coach holding his hand.

Marty left, and so did the dominant defenses.

[Lurch]

My perspective is that Gunther only had a good defense when he had a defensive head coach holding his hand.

Marty left, and so did the dominant defenses.

And so you think his success in SD, OAK, and TN were also due more to the HC than him? Interesting.

[tk13]

Gun really wasn't that successful in any of those places other than the two good years in KC. You look at the top 10 D's Herm has been a part of compared to Gun, it's not even close.

[Hammock Parties]

Gunther wasn't a defensive coordinator in all those places.

I think he's an outstanding position coach, as evidenced by his work with Kawika Mitchell last year.

[Logical]

And so you think his success in SD, OAK, and TN were also due more to the HC than him? Interesting.He was only position coaches with those teams never a DC.

[milkman]

He was only position coaches with those teams never a DC.

Gunt was DC in Oakland in '92 and '93.
They thought so much of him that they demoted him.

[Lurch]

Gun really wasn't that successful in any of those places other than the two good years in KC. You look at the top 10 D's Herm has been a part of compared to Gun, it's not even close.

I agree Herm is a good coach. But, IMO Gun did exceptionally well when he had talent in their prime: mid 90s in KC. Otherwise, he's done pretty darn well with marginal and substandard talent. Defenses are not built in a year. It takes 2-3 years to really see the results of good coaching, IMO.

If the D suddenly "gels" this year, as I'm expecting it to, it may be in part due to Herm, but Gun will have earned the lion's share of credit (along with CP for getting those players Gun asked for.)

[Eleazar]

I agree. The coaching staff is turning out well. I might be willing to revise my prediction up to 1-15 if they prove it on the field.

[tk13]

Herm has never, ever, ever been a part of a bad defense. Ever. His defensive record is REALLY impressive. From his playing days under Vermeil to all of his assistant coaching/head coach stops.

Well, last year's Jets ranked pretty poorly, but a lot of that was that their offense was horrific behind the 4th string QB and never moved the ball. I think last year's Jets were actually the worst ranked D he's ever been a part of.

[RealSNR]

My perspective is that Gunther only had a good defense when he had a defensive head coach holding his hand.

Marty left, and so did the dominant defenses.Looks like that's what's happening with Herm, so that's positive

[Logical]

Gunt was DC in Oakland in '92 and '93.
They thought so much of him that they demoted him.Thanks for the clarification I did not know that

[jidar]

we're going 16-0
We're going to be so awesome Lil' Ronny is going to write a song about US.

[alanm]

Your comment is unfounded, you don't know what I was doing in the 90's. What did you not understand about "As far as I can tell Herman knows more about what he wants in a DC than you might, or any of us for that matter."

Herman sees something in Gunther that he likes, the chemistry between the two of them might result in an outcome that you don't expect.

I have heard that fried crow sucks, you might look for some other way to prepare it.
Ummmmmmmm..... Pie. :p

[CoMoChief]

Wow, I didn't realize Welbourne was such a key to our success.


Turley > Welbourn at RT.

But yes having Roaf back would increase our chances greatly.

[Logical]

Ummmmmmmm..... Pie. :pI have been thinking that lately as well.

[beer bacon]

Herm has never, ever, ever been a part of a bad defense. Ever. His defensive record is REALLY impressive. From his playing days under Vermeil to all of his assistant coaching/head coach stops.

Well, last year's Jets ranked pretty poorly, but a lot of that was that their offense was horrific behind the 4th string QB and never moved the ball. I think last year's Jets were actually the worst ranked D he's ever been a part of.

I was looking at the stats from the Jets 2006 pass defense, and I was pretty impressed. They were ranked #2 in total pass defense, which is not all that impressive when you realize that they also had the 3rd fewest pass attempts against them. What surprised me, is that despite being #25 in sacks with 30, they were ranked highly in most of the other pass defense stats:

Total pass defense: #2 - 172.2 ypg
Pass attempts against: 3rd fewest - 463
QB rating against: #6 - 73.1
Yards per attempt: #7 - 6.37
TDs against: #6 - 17
INTs: #5 - 21
INT to TD ratio: #4: +4
Completion percentage against: #24: 61.3%
Sacks: #25: 30

They allowed a relatively high percentage completions, but still held opponents to a very low yards per attempt, so most of those completions were for short gains.

I was also surprised they got 21 interceptions. I guess when one guy gets 10 INTs, it makes it a lot easier to reach 20+ INTs, even if teams aren't throwing on you that much.

[tk13]

And they did that with two very inexperienced 2nd day draft pick safeties, a Pro Bowl CB coming off a bad injury, and at the end of the year had a rookie CB starting opposite Law. They really had a inexperienced secondary overall besides Law and David Barrett.

And in KC we have 80 million dollars worth of starting CB's, two veteran safeties then 3 or 4 more 1st day draft pick DB's. You'd think we could make something out of that.

[Hammock Parties]

Well, the Jets did have an awful run defense. Teams didn't have to throw on them. That's probably skewing the numbers a bit but probably not enough to make a giant difference.

[Coogs]

I think it is a great staff, too bad he did not give Gunther the boot.

Krumrie, Gibbs and Solari all get outstanding mentions from me. From watching the camp show it appears that Herm might in reality be our DC so that gives me some hope.

I agree totally with this whole post. I really am beginning to think Gun came back to KC because he had an axe to grind with the whole DV thing. His throwing DV under the bus anytime he could this off-season is more to even the score than anything.

I like the fact that Herm is changing Gun' "scheme. But it scares me that Gun is tinkering with Herm's scheme, as reported in the daily Holthaus thread. Gun is moving the LB's closer to the line in Herm's cover two scheme. That worries me a lot. Might be great against the run, but visions of TO running wide open against the zone last season are comming into focus when I picture this in my mind.

[htismaqe]

slow down there buddy. You don't go from 26 to top 10 in one year unless you are Chicago.

I say somewhere between 13-17 this year.

We were 16th in scoring D last year and that's all that counts.

[htismaqe]

I agree totally with this whole post. I really am beginning to think Gun came back to KC because he had an axe to grind with the whole DV thing. His throwing DV under the bus anytime he could this off-season is more to even the score than anything.

I like the fact that Herm is changing Gun' "scheme. But it scares me that Gun is tinkering with Herm's scheme, as reported in the daily Holthaus thread. Gun is moving the LB's closer to the line in Herm's cover two scheme. That worries me a lot. Might be great against the run, but visions of TO running wide open against the zone last season are comming into focus when I picture this in my mind.

Moving the LB's closer to the LoS apparently doesn't have anything to do with pass coverage. The LB's are going to be expected to blitz, although not as much in the past.

When they're not blitzing, they'll be playing straight zone coverage, ala the Tampa 2...

Read today's update, it might make you feel better.

[stevieray]

Win as a team, lose as a team.

[greg63]

We were 16th in scoring D last year and that's all that counts.

I beg to differ; it only counts if you can consistently perform at a level that keeps the opposing team out of the end zone.

[DaneMcCloud]

I really am beginning to think Gun came back to KC because he had an axe to grind with the whole DV thing.

His coming back to KC had NOTHING to do with your quote. I had EVERYTHING to with $1 million dollars and the chance to be a D-Coordinator again.

Gunther was linebacker coach at Tennessee and in the four years after his firing in KC, he wasn't offered ONE DC position.

I think that exempifies what the "rest of the NFL" thinks of him.

[htismaqe]

His coming back to KC had NOTHING to do with your quote. I had EVERYTHING to with $1 million dollars and the chance to be a D-Coordinator again.

Gunther was linebacker coach at Tennessee and in the four years after his firing in KC, he wasn't offered ONE DC position.

I think that exempifies what the "rest of the NFL" thinks of him.

Gunther had interested from the Falcons and Jets to be their DC.

[Coogs]

Moving the LB's closer to the LoS apparently doesn't have anything to do with pass coverage. The LB's are going to be expected to blitz, although not as much in the past.

When they're not blitzing, they'll be playing straight zone coverage, ala the Tampa 2...

Read today's update, it might make you feel better.

The only real thing that makes me feel better about the defense is Herm. It seems as if he is in control of "almost" everything. It would be everything, except for Guns tinkering. He is explaining everything to the defense, right down to footwork. That seems like it would be more of a DC kind of job, but Herm is doing it.

On a side note, I listened to Bobby Bell on the 38 Sports Spot last night. He was commenting on the defense, and called Gun's D of the last couple of years a "Slant" defense. Said the LB's were always moving on a predetermined slant. And basically it was boom or bust. If the tackle was missed, it was over. Didn't sound like Bell was a big fan of the slant.

Let's hope that Gun leaves that part of the defense out of the cover two, and lets everyone just do what they are supposed to do. Avoid the confusion. If Law and Surtain are having to learn.... like rookies.... you know everyone else is too.

I also heard a bit from Holthus on the radio today, 610 this afternoon I think, and he said Hicks was having a great camp... not a good camp, but a great camp.

[Deberg_1990]

I like the fact that Herm is changing Gun' "scheme. But it scares me that Gun is tinkering with Herm's scheme, as reported in the daily Holthaus thread. Gun is moving the LB's closer to the line in Herm's cover two scheme. That worries me a lot. Might be great against the run, but visions of TO running wide open against the zone last season are comming into focus when I picture this in my mind.


What really puzzles me is why in the world Herm kept Gunther as his DC when he was hired??? I didnt realize they were so close? Plus, has Gun ever coached a Cover 2 scheme?? I just dont get why Herm didnt hire a new guy to come in here??

[keg in kc]

What really puzzles me is why in the world Herm kept Gunther as his DC when he was hired??? I didnt realize they were so close? Plus, has Gun ever coached a Cover 2 scheme?? I just dont get why Herm didnt hire a new guy to come in here??Herm tried to hire him as DC in New York a couple years back.

[CoMoChief]

Nah I am sticking with either 8-8 or 9-7 with a few breaks. Roaf comes back and we can move that up a game, Welbourne and Roaf both come back and make it 11 wins.


Turley is a better RT than Welbourn is, that is if Roaf comes back. We would only need Welbourn to back up Shields.