GRETZ: Battle Gone; More to Come

[Coogs]

I know everyone knows Battle is toast, Just thought I would post the article in a new thread.

_____________________________________________________________

GRETZ: Battle Gone; More to Come
Aug 11, 2006, 7:57:03 AM by Bob Gretz - FAQ


RIVER FALLS, WI – It will not go down as one of the more earth-shaking personnel moves in recent Chiefs history.



But the decision to release cornerback Julian Battle on Friday certainly caught the attention of his once fellow teammates.

And there will be more “surprises” in the coming days and weeks as Herm Edwards begins to pull out the weeds in the Chiefs roster.

“Just not good enough,” was Edwards’ reply when asked why Battle was released. “We did it now so he would have a better opportunity of catching on somewhere else.”

A spot was needed with the signing of quarterback Jeff Smoker, but there were others on the roster that could have been sent packing at this time. The decision to waive Battle was done to send the message that Edwards has stressed from Day One in Kansas City: he doesn’t want the players to feel too comfortable about their status.

Battle was one of those players who felt very comfortable. The Chiefs attempted to trade him on Friday. Actually, it’s the second time in the last few weeks they floated his name on the NFL grapevine hoping for a nibble. When they signed veteran cornerback Ty Law the week that training camp starters, Battle expressed his displeasure and asked to be traded.

They found no takers then, and none this week, so he was released.

The fact that Battle actually thought he was tradable was a symptom of his biggest problem: he thinks he’s good enough. Yet, the fourth-year pro has done nothing during his time with the Chiefs to show he could be a contributing player to the defense. His season last year was wiped out by an Achilles’ tendon injury in mini-camp. But he rehabbed and was at 100 percent through the off-season program and during two weeks of training camp.

Battle’s biggest problem was his lack of consistency. There have been times since he joined the Chiefs when he showed flashes of ability. Physically, he might be as gifted a cornerback as Dale Carter.

But the times when he displayed that ability were few and far between. He could not carry it from one play to another. Even in practice, he would handle coverage well on one play, then he would come back on the next play and completely forget about what he learned just 30 seconds earlier. Plus, he’s prone to penalties. Last Friday night in the practice against the Minnesota Vikings, on his first play of one-on-one pass coverage, he was flagged for holding by the NFL game officials who were working the affair.

Edwards isn’t going to put up with that type of inconsistency. That’s one of the major reasons that cornerback Eric Warfield was sent packing in the off-season. This defense is built on a foundation of strong, consistent fundamentals. Battle never figured that out.

His release is another defensive draft failure for the Chiefs. Battle was a third-round pick in 2003, a first-day choice and he joins recent first-day busts like DT Eric Downing (3rd-round, 2001), DT Eddie Freeman (2nd-round, 2002) and DT Junior Siavii (2nd-round, 2004), who remains missing in action in this training camp and could be the next weed pulled from the roster.

When Dick Vermeil was the head coach, his approach to player evaluation could be characterized as: we’ve seen you perform at least once, so we believe you have the ability to do it again and we’ll work with you to make that happen.

Edwards attitude is: do it once, then show me you can do it again, and again, and again, and then I’ll believe you can play.

Julian Battle never came close to achieving that performance level.

The opinions offered in this column do not necessarily reflect those of the Kansas City Chiefs.

[shaneo69]

It was all Vermiel's fault.

[Eleazar]

I kind of can see Battle's perspective, since he lost all of last season to injury and probably felt like when Law was brought in, he lost his chance to earn a spot in the lineup. I'm sure he'll get another chance somewhere.

[Frazod]

So apparently, if you suck, Edwards will shitcan you. A refreshing change of pace from the last idiot who called the shots.

[BigRedChief]

So apparently, if you suck, Edwards will shitcan you. A refreshing change of pace from the last idiot who called the shots.

Now if Bartee gets cut the cycle will be complete.

[Bwana]

So apparently, if you suck, Edwards will shitcan you. A refreshing change of pace from the last idiot who called the shots.

Which is why Junior Siavii and Eric Hicks can't be resting all that well at night. Siavii naver has brought jack to the table and Hicks has been missing in action for years.

[Hammock Parties]

So apparently, if you suck, Edwards will shitcan you. A refreshing change of pace from the last idiot who called the shots.

Herm sucks. Just listen to the Jets fans. :rolleyes:

[Lzen]

We already know Hicks has lost his starting spot. That is nice. He's a backup where he should've been the past few years.

Too bad about Battle, but I understand Herm's reasoning. Sounds good to me. There's a new sheriff in town. :)

[Messier]

It was all Vermiel's fault.


Most of it was.

[shaneo69]

So apparently, if you suck, Edwards will shitcan you. A refreshing change of pace from the last idiot who called the shots.

Don't get me wrong. I totally blame Vermiel for hanging on to these chumps for so long.

But for Gretz to blame Vermiel for all the draft failures is typical Carl/Gretz.

[MOhillbilly]

dale carter? dale carter was a hundred dollar bill athlete w/ a 2 c head.

whats the guys name that got cut again?

[chop]

Come on guys, eventually Edwards is going to form bonds with certain players and it's going to be hard for him to release them when it's time. If they have performed for him in the past, he'll probably give them the benefit of the doubt when their skills start to fade. This is a new coach that has no bonds with the Chiefs current players so he's going to make the choices to get rid of some easier than Vermeil would have been able to do it.

[hawkchief]

Most of it was.

Funny how King Carl takes credit for the few good picks, and blame for all the busts fall on Vermeil. Every draft day, Carl is on TV touting the picks, but when they tank, he's nowhere to be seen and has his puppet Gretz hang it on the ex-coach.

[ck_IN]

<i>I totally blame Vermiel for hanging on to these chumps for so long.

But for Gretz to blame Vermiel for all the draft failures is typical Carl/Gretz</i>

As a rule CP gives his coaches the players they ask for. If we got Battle I've no doubt it was because DV in his infinite genious wanted Battle.

Just another of the typical picks from Dicks magical mystery draft.

[dirk digler]

So apparently, if you suck, Edwards will shitcan you. A refreshing change of pace from the last idiot who called the shots.

I like it

[Eleazar]

I can't wait to see what will happen if we cut Hicks, Siavii, Bartee, etc., all in the same day. Edwards will get a ticker tape parade around here. (well, except from the officers of GERM WARFARE)

[InChiefsHeaven]

Herm is supossedly a more Rookie\young guy friendly coach, and it seems our rookies are pouring it on really well in camp, at least Pollard and Page...Tamba is supposedly looking good as well. This is good news to have a youth movement in KC. I just hope the hype is followed up with performance...we'll see on Saturday.

[ct]

...

Edwards isn’t going to put up with that type of inconsistency. That’s one of the major reasons that cornerback Eric Warfield was sent packing in the off-season. This defense is built on a foundation of strong, consistent fundamentals. Battle never figured that out.

...

This statement has Greg Wesley written all over it! And Ryan Sims too.

[jspchief]

But for Gretz to blame Vermiel for all the draft failures is typical Carl/Gretz.Please show me where in that article Gretz blames Vermeil for the draft failures.

[shaneo69]

Please show me where in that article Gretz blames Vermeil for the draft failures.

"His release is another defensive draft failure for the Chiefs. Battle was a third-round pick in 2003, a first-day choice and he joins recent first-day busts like DT Eric Downing (3rd-round, 2001), DT Eddie Freeman (2nd-round, 2002) and DT Junior Siavii (2nd-round, 2004), who remains missing in action in this training camp and could be the next weed pulled from the roster.

When Dick Vermeil was the head coach, his approach to player evaluation could be characterized as: we’ve seen you perform at least once, so we believe you have the ability to do it again and we’ll work with you to make that happen."

[jspchief]

"His release is another defensive draft failure for the Chiefs. Battle was a third-round pick in 2003, a first-day choice and he joins recent first-day busts like DT Eric Downing (3rd-round, 2001), DT Eddie Freeman (2nd-round, 2002) and DT Junior Siavii (2nd-round, 2004), who remains missing in action in this training camp and could be the next weed pulled from the roster.

When Dick Vermeil was the head coach, his approach to player evaluation could be characterized as: we’ve seen you perform at least once, so we believe you have the ability to do it again and we’ll work with you to make that happen."OK, so that says he held onto the failures for too long (which is clearly the truth), but nowhere do I see it blaming Vermeil for the failures.

[shaneo69]

OK, so that says he held onto the failures for too long (which is clearly the truth), but nowhere do I see it blaming Vermeil for the failures.

I took Gretz' quote to mean that when Vermiel was evaluating players for the draft, if he saw a player do something great in college, he wanted the guy because he thought he could coach him to do great things on a consistent basis in the pros. Hence, it was Vermiel's fault for talking Carl into drafting them.

[jspchief]

I took Gretz' quote to mean that when Vermiel was evaluating players for the draft, if he saw a player do something great in college, he wanted the guy because he thought he could coach him to do great things on a consistent basis in the pros. Hence, it was Vermiel's fault for talking Carl into drafting them.OK, then we are reading it different ways. I took the comment about Vermeil to mean he held onto these guys too long, as compared to Edwards who's not afraid to jettison a guy that isn't getting it done.

I saw the two paragraphs as making individual points.

[shaneo69]

As a rule CP gives his coaches the players they ask for. If we got Battle I've no doubt it was because DV in his infinite genious wanted Battle.

Just another of the typical picks from Dicks magical mystery draft.

Carl's the GM. If we've drafted poorly, he's the guy to blame. I don't care who the coach wanted, it's ultimately the GM's responsibility. When Carl showed some balls in 2003, he got a good player.

Even if Vermiel really wanted Siavii in 2004, or if Gunther wanted Siavii, it doesn't matter. It's still Carl's fault for drafting him.

[Chief Faithful]

Sounds like Battle was born to be a Raider. Extremely talented, hugh ego, and can't produce on the field consistantly.

I like the way Edwards is weeding the team of guys with the entitlement mentality even if they are all world talent. First Warfield, now Battle, next Saivii. I'm sure Sims is feeling the heat.

[DTLB58]

I can't wait to see what will happen if we cut Hicks, Siavii, Bartee, etc., all in the same day. Edwards will get a ticker tape parade around here. (well, except from the officers of GERM WARFARE)

I can't wait for that day to come, then Herm will be on the right path of truly turning this team around.

[Kerberos]

I can't wait for that day to come, then Herm will be on the right path of truly turning this team around.

Sounds to me like he is already peddling down the right path.

Lets see who gets cut between now and the season opener. I believe that if he starts cutting people that some think were doing a decent job will make the rest work even harder to keep from getting cut. I hope his reverse psychology has some merrit.


.

[Mr. Laz]

Which is why Junior Siavii and Eric Hicks can't be resting all that well at night. Siavii naver has brought jack to the table and Hicks has been missing in action for years.

as soon as Savaii gets healthy enough to cut ... he's gone imo.


why cut him now and have to pay a settlement.

[|Zach|]

I think you folks that are expecting Hicks to get released are going to be dissapointed.

Eric Hicks will be a big part of this defense in '06

[jspchief]

I think you folks that are expecting Hicks to get released are going to be dissapointed.

Eric Hicks will be a big part of this defense in '06I think he will be too. Maybe not big as in "productive", but big as in "number of snaps".

Hali will likely see about 50% of the snaps at most. And even if he wins the starting job on day 1, Hicks will still be the #2 DE.

[|Zach|]

I think he will be too. Maybe not big as in "productive", but big as in "number of snaps".

Hali will likely see about 50% of the snaps at most. And even if he wins the starting job on day 1, Hicks will still be the #2 DE.
Yup.

[ck_IN]

<i>Carl's the GM. If we've drafted poorly, he's the guy to blame. I don't care who the coach wanted, it's ultimately the GM's responsibility. When Carl showed some balls in 2003, he got a good player.</i>

And that year he went against his coaches wishes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing CP from our pitiful drafts. All I'm saying is DV and his scouts told CP to get player X and for the most part that's the player that CP drafted.

Should CP have been more diligent before drafting the likes of Downing, Freeman, Minnis, Battle, etc? Probably. But those were the guys that DV and his staff wanted. The bulk of the blame goes squarely to Dick.

[htismaqe]

And that year he went against his coaches wishes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing CP from our pitiful drafts. All I'm saying is DV and his scouts told CP to get player X and for the most part that's the player that CP drafted.

Should CP have been more diligent before drafting the likes of Downing, Freeman, Minnis, Battle, etc? Probably. But those were the guys that DV and his staff wanted. The bulk of the blame goes squarely to Dick.

Yep.

[Mr. Laz]

Yep.
and the decision to keep giving his coaches the power to screw up the draft is who's fault?

[hawkchief]

and the decision to keep giving his coaches the power to screw up the draft is who's fault?

Amen.

[|Zach|]

Technicians work hard at the Chiefs lab to study the draft and its empirical nature.

http://static.flickr.com/23/91982384_4b7d673d87.jpg?v=0

http://static.flickr.com/86/205210589_3afd7069b7.jpg?v=0

[Eleazar]

I think you folks that are expecting Hicks to get released are going to be dissapointed.

Eric Hicks will be a big part of this defense in '06

I agree, I didn't mean that. I was just envisioning the mood of celebration if all the defensive pariahs were cut at once.

[Idahored]

and the decision to keep giving his coaches the power to screw up the draft is who's fault?

That's what you hire a coach for. There are very few GM's that make all the draft decisions. Most give the coach a large part of the responsibility. Otherwise why not just have a GM and assistant coaches. There are some exceptions to this, but they are few and not always successful. I have no problem with Carl letting his coaches pick the players they want for their system.

[htismaqe]

and the decision to keep giving his coaches the power to screw up the draft is who's fault?

Um, that's his job.

[Coogs]

Which is why Junior Siavii and Eric Hicks can't be resting all that well at night. Siavii naver has brought jack to the table and Hicks has been missing in action for years.

Yesterday afternoon on 610, I heard an interview with Holthus (I just caught the end of the interview, so I am not 100% sure it was him, but it sure sounded like him). Anyway, he said Hicks is having a great camp, not a good camp, but a great camp. If this is true, this is good news for our side I would think.

[Mr. Laz]

Um, that's his job.
uh ... no it's not

his job is to win games ... not make his coaches feel good about themselves.


if a coach is good at selecting talent then he should let them

if a coach isn't ... then he shouldn't

[CosmicPal]

“Just not good enough,” was Edwards’ reply when asked why Battle was released. “We did it now so he would have a better opportunity of catching on somewhere else.”



He has no chance of getting on anywhere. ROFL

Think about it- we were one of the worst passing D's the past few seasons and if you're not good enough to make this squad, then I don't think you have a "better" opportunity anywhere else.

Damn, that's harsh.

I'm surprised by Battle's release, 'cause I would have figured Bartee would have been the first to go. Who knows, maybe Edwards has finally gotten Bartee to turn his head around and look at the ball now. :shrug:

[|Zach|]

He has no chance of getting on anywhere. ROFL

Think about it- we were one of the worst passing D's the past few seasons and if you're not good enough to make this squad, then I don't think you have a "better" opportunity anywhere else.

Damn, that's harsh.

I'm surprised by Battle's release, 'cause I would have figured Bartee would have been the first to go. Who knows, maybe Edwards has finally gotten Bartee to turn his head around and look at the ball now. :shrug:
As sad as the no INT schtick is Battle has actually gone on the field and made a few plays here and there...he isn't consistant enough to be a player for us I wouldn't mind if he got cut but the guy has done some good things during his time...you can't say the same for Battle.

[htismaqe]

uh ... no it's not

his job is to win games ... not make his coaches feel good about themselves.


if a coach is good at selecting talent then he should let them

if a coach isn't ... then he shouldn't

His job isn't to win games. He's a GENERAL manager.

His job is to hire people to win games. And that assumes that winning games is even part of the company charter handed down by the owner. Given what we've seen over the last 20 years, I'm gonna guess that winning games isn't priority #1.

[hawkchief]

uh ... no it's not

his job is to win games ... not make his coaches feel good about themselves.


if a coach is good at selecting talent then he should let them

if a coach isn't ... then he shouldn't

Careful, Laz. You are about to be labeled as making merely dumbass and stupid comments, by the board mods. It's important that we revere Carl and all that he does here on CP. Carl is a terrific GM, and we shouldn't ever question how he so effectively runs the Chiefs.

[htismaqe]

Yesterday afternoon on 610, I heard an interview with Holthus (I just caught the end of the interview, so I am not 100% sure it was him, but it sure sounded like him). Anyway, he said Hicks is having a great camp, not a good camp, but a great camp. If this is true, this is good news for our side I would think.

His job is on the line.

FINALLY.

[htismaqe]

Careful, Laz. You are about to be labeled as making merely dumbass and stupid comments, by the board mods. It's important that we revere Carl and all that he does here on CP. Carl is a terrific GM, and we shouldn't ever question how he so effectively runs the Chiefs.

ROFL

Laz knows what he's talking about. Comments like his rarely elicit anything other than further discussion.

Comments like yours above, however, generally elicit the comments you refer to.

Maybe that's because you really are a dumbass.

[Baby Lee]

When Dick Vermeil was the head coach, his approach to player evaluation could be characterized as: we’ve seen you perform at least once, so we believe you have the ability to do it again and we’ll work with you to make that happen.

Edwards attitude is: do it once, then show me you can do it again, and again, and again, and then I’ll believe you can play.
Not speaking specifically to the Battle situation, but I actually prefer the DV approach to the Herm approach here.
Players are the vessels, coaches are the ones to fill the vessel.
Analogize this to sculpting
DV's approach - give me the best marble in the land and I'll sculpt 'David.'
Herm's? - sculpting's hard. that piece of rock over there looks pretty much like a man. Stick it in my museum.

[Mr. Laz]

His job isn't to win games. He's a GENERAL manager.

His job is to hire people to win games. And that assumes that winning games is even part of the company charter handed down by the owner. Given what we've seen over the last 20 years, I'm gonna guess that winning games isn't priority #1.

i really can't argue that ... as sad as it makes me



i guess i should of said "Peterson's job SHOULD BE to win games" :sulk:

[htismaqe]

Not speaking specifically to the Battle situation, but I actually prefer the DV approach to the Herm approach here.
Players are the vessels, coaches are the ones to fill the vessel.
Analogize this to sculpting
DV's approach - give me the best marble in the land and I'll sculpt 'David.'
Herm's? - sculpting's hard. that piece of rock over there looks pretty much like a man. Stick it in my museum.

I like that analogy, but I'd take it one step further.

DV's approach - give me the best CLAY in the land and I'll sculpt 'David'.

I prefer Herm's approach because clay is soft.

[|Zach|]

Not speaking specifically to the Battle situation, but I actually prefer the DV approach to the Herm approach here.
Players are the vessels, coaches are the ones to fill the vessel.
Analogize this to sculpting
DV's approach - give me the best marble in the land and I'll sculpt 'David.'
Herm's? - sculpting's hard. that piece of rock over there looks pretty much like a man. Stick it in my museum.
heh, I like that...to continue it though...

DV made some David's....but when they were not David's he would keep them around and wait for them to look like David's and try to convince us they were David's...

Herm knows a shitty piece of art when he is working with one and he will throw it out for a new sculpture.

ROFL

[Halfcan]

Barttee, Slavil, and Simms are next.

[RedandGold]

Not speaking specifically to the Battle situation, but I actually prefer the DV approach to the Herm approach here.
Players are the vessels, coaches are the ones to fill the vessel.
Analogize this to sculpting
DV's approach - give me the best marble in the land and I'll sculpt 'David.'
Herm's? - sculpting's hard. that piece of rock over there looks pretty much like a man. Stick it in my museum.

Unfortunately, in terms of drafting talent, it was more like this:

DV - I saw a bit of light flash off of that turd. I will pick it up and love it and make it my own. It will turn into a diamond if I hug it enough.

Herm - I don't want any turds on my team

[|Zach|]

Barttee, Slavil, and Simms are next.
Simms? Hardly.

[dirk digler]

heh, I like that...to continue it though...

DV made some David's....but when they were not David's he would keep them around and wait for them to look like David's and try to convince us they were David's...

Herm knows a shitty piece of art when he is working with one and he will throw it out for a new sculpture.

ROFL

I like that

[Baby Lee]

I like that analogy, but I'd take it one step further.

DV's approach - give me the best CLAY in the land and I'll sculpt 'David'.

I prefer Herm's approach because clay is soft.
But clay is fungible, and talent isn't.
This is the 00's, the old story of getting a bunch of average Joes to play with heart and grit and take on the world is now a relic of a bygone era.
You want a championship these days, you gotta do it like Phil Jackson, and assemble the guys with the most physical gifts you can fit under one roof, then go to work making them fit the mold of a consistent, successful team.
No coach on earth can make a player faster, taller, or stronger.
He CAN make him smarter and more disciplined.

[Halfcan]

Simms? Hardly.

Only because we have noone else. I have not heard much about this guy except he was running with the 2nd and 3rd unit.

[dirk digler]

But clay is fungible, and talent isn't.
This is the 00's, the old story of getting a bunch of average Joes to play with heart and grit and take on the world is now a relic of a bygone era.
You want a championship these days, you gotta do it like Phil Jackson, and assemble the guys with the most physical gifts you can fit under one roof, then go to work making them fit the mold of a consistent, successful team.
No coach on earth can make a player faster, taller, or stronger.
He CAN make him smarter and more disciplined.

I disagree especially with football. The NE Patriots weren't the most gifted teams, heck they had 2-3 white guys playing LB's. :)

[Baby Lee]

Unfortunately, in terms of drafting talent, it was more like this:

DV - I saw a bit of light flash off of that turd. I will pick it up and love it and make it my own. It will turn into a diamond if I hug it enough.

Herm - I don't want any turds on my team
MY point, and it's more of a theoretical on than a specific application, is that it's the coach's job to knock the clods of turd off and reveal the flash.
The level of TALENT is a variable that a coach cannot change.
Accepting less TALENT because it's easier to COACH just opens the door for another coach to amass more TALENT than you possess.
Then you end up with a team consisting of 52 Hicks and Brownings.

[Messier]

Only because we have noone else. I have not heard much about this guy except he was running with the 2nd and 3rd unit.


And the first. I think they (media) made that a bigger deal than it really was. Edwards said they are going to rotate the four DT's (Sims, Dalton, Reed and Edwards). I like that idea, but they all must stay healthy for it to work.

[Rausch]

No coach on earth can make a player faster, taller, or stronger.
He CAN make him smarter and more disciplined.

I think we're finding out now that in the current NFL you can't make them smarter or more disciplined.

You have the desire to develop that mentality when you get to the NFL level or you don't...

[keg in kc]

Careful, Laz. You are about to be labeled as making merely dumbass and stupid comments, by the board mods. It's important that we revere Carl and all that he does here on CP. Carl is a terrific GM, and we shouldn't ever question how he so effectively runs the Chiefs.Yeah, that's the planet. One big Carl Peterson love fest. He's the man. We all love him.

PPL 2006!

[ChiefFan31]

I look forward to the day when they cut Bartee and Siavii.

Siavii, shitty attitude plus crap production.

William "ball hawk" Bartee, just dont got it, IMHO

Hicks is needed to spell and mentor Hali, gone in 07

Sims, he will make it just because we need that son of a bitch to step up so badly and show consistentcy. If we had more talent and the DT position, he would be kicked to the curb this year, IMO.

[RedandGold]

MY point, and it's more of a theoretical on than a specific application, is that it's the coach's job to knock the clods of turd off and reveal the flash.
The level of TALENT is a variable that a coach cannot change.
Accepting less TALENT because it's easier to COACH just opens the door for another coach to amass more TALENT than you possess.
Then you end up with a team consisting of 52 Hicks and Brownings.


Of course, I was just being facetious, and I actually agree with your premise here. I just have to disagree a bit with the application of Vermeil vs. Herm.

Yes, it's the coaches job to get the most of the players on the roster, and no, you can't coach natural, physical ability. Underachievers at the collegiate level are great late-round picks, and I have no problem with trying to "coach up" these types of athletes.

My problem was that we wasted too many high draft picks during the DV era on these types of projects, and it hurt the team as a result. If Downing, Freeman, Siavii, Wilson, Battle, etc. were late-round picks, it wouldn't be a problem if they didn't work out. The problem is that we passed on talent that performed at the collegiate level to reach on "projects".

When we drafted Battle, he had all of the tangible assets we wanted in a CB. Unfortunately, he didn't have the mental aspect that would make him reach his potential. I seriously doubt that he would have been cut if he was truly a better player than the CBs that we plan on keeping.

We all know that the NFL has been littered with players possessing all of the physical tools necessary to be stars, but could never reach their potential due to the mental aspect of the game (see E. Grbac). All of the coaching in the world wouldn't turn Elvis into Joe Montana, and I think it's safe to say the 49'ers understood that as well.

Herm is recognizing which players are coachable and which ones are not, and he is simply weeding out the ones that are not.

[htismaqe]

But clay is fungible, and talent isn't.
This is the 00's, the old story of getting a bunch of average Joes to play with heart and grit and take on the world is now a relic of a bygone era.
You want a championship these days, you gotta do it like Phil Jackson, and assemble the guys with the most physical gifts you can fit under one roof, then go to work making them fit the mold of a consistent, successful team.
No coach on earth can make a player faster, taller, or stronger.
He CAN make him smarter and more disciplined.

See, I feel that's PRECISELY what Vermeil did (and did not) do.

He tried to coach up guys that weren't faster, taller, or stronger. And in the process, he made them LESS disciplined because they didn't feel like they had to earn anything, let alone their starting job.

To add to the analogy, sculpting rock requires a hammer and chisel. When sculpting clay, you have to handle it with kid gloves for fear you ruin it...

[melbar]

Battle was also a Robinson pick.

[Chief Faithful]

Not speaking specifically to the Battle situation, but I actually prefer the DV approach to the Herm approach here.
Players are the vessels, coaches are the ones to fill the vessel.
Analogize this to sculpting
DV's approach - give me the best marble in the land and I'll sculpt 'David.'
Herm's? - sculpting's hard. that piece of rock over there looks pretty much like a man. Stick it in my museum.

I prefer Herman's approach, if they can play then they can play day one. No need to sculpt shit when you can sculpt marble.

[Chief Faithful]

Remember, Battle could not beat out McCleon or Bartee as a rookie, but Sapp got on the field. Battle was not good enough to get on the field with the worst defense in the NFL and Edwards doesn't think he is good enough after 3 years of sculpting. Sounds to me like a good release.

[ct]

DV got us 1 playoff game, an embarrasing loss at home. I see a pretty decent chance that Herm can at least match that in his 1st year. For me, speaking just for right now, Herm wins.

But I'll give DV this, he made this Chiefs organization competitive again, after we were in a sad sad state when he took over.

[Rooster]

To add to the analogy, sculpting rock requires a hammer and chisel. When sculpting clay, you have to handle it with kid gloves for fear you ruin it...

Damn that was deep. :clap:

[keg in kc]

I'm starting to see Vermeil as a bridge between the kind of thug team that Marty had and the kind of team that Edwards appears to want to build.

Marty went for talent over character with a defensive (aggressive, violent) attitude, Vermeil went for character over talent with an offensive (cerebral) attitude, and Edwards appears to want both talent and character with a return to defensive attitude.

And by defensive attitude, I mean the mindset of the team, not necessarily an emphasis on defense. I think the team will be tougher and more violent on both sides of the ball. For instance, I see Larry Johnson as a player with a defensive attitude, although he's a running back...

Either way, while Vermeil did improve the character of the team, and help us recover from a salary cap hell in 2001, ultimately, we're headed for another salary cap hell in the next 2 years, and the end result of his 5 years here was failure, every bit as much as Marty and Gun's tenure.

[KCTitus]

His job isn't to win games. He's a GENERAL manager.

His job is to hire people to win games. And that assumes that winning games is even part of the company charter handed down by the owner. Given what we've seen over the last 20 years, I'm gonna guess that winning games isn't priority #1.

While I agree his job isnt to 'win' games...that's for the coaches and more to the point the PLAYERS, I do disagree that this team doesnt have winning as it's top priority.

Ive heard him say time after time that winning is exactly their priority, but they just havent succeeded in that.

The draft is a crapshoot and KC's had more than their fair share of duds, but it's obvious that they do draft to fill holes/weaknesses in the club.

[htismaqe]

While I agree his job isnt to 'win' games...that's for the coaches and more to the point the PLAYERS, I do disagree that this team doesnt have winning as it's top priority.

Ive heard him say time after time that winning is exactly their priority, but they just havent succeeded in that.

The draft is a crapshoot and KC's had more than their fair share of duds, but it's obvious that they do draft to fill holes/weaknesses in the club.

Let me rephrase my last sentence.

Considering what we've seen the last 20 years, winning is the top priority ONLY if it doesn't interfere with making money...

[chief2000]

Blame goes to Carl for allowing power to Vermeil.

Carl again.

[KCTitus]

Let me rephrase my last sentence.

Considering what we've seen the last 20 years, winning is the top priority ONLY if it doesn't interfere with making money...

LOL...I still disagree. I point to the truckloads of money and draft picks forfeited for players like Chester McGlockton, Lew Bush, Gray, et al. Overpaying for FA's is a Lexicon staple.

Again, the team, front office all want to win...they've just sucked at putting together the pieces to get it done.

[htismaqe]

LOL...I still disagree. I point to the truckloads of money and draft picks forfeited for players like Chester McGlockton, Lew Bush, Gray, et al. Overpaying for FA's is a Lexicon staple.

Again, the team, front office all want to win...they've just sucked at putting together the pieces to get it done.

Thanks for reminding me...

[RealSNR]

See, I feel that's PRECISELY what Vermeil did (and did not) do.

He tried to coach up guys that weren't faster, taller, or stronger. And in the process, he made them LESS disciplined because they didn't feel like they had to earn anything, let alone their starting job.

To add to the analogy, sculpting rock requires a hammer and chisel. When sculpting clay, you have to handle it with kid gloves for fear you ruin it...Wow, we're all a bunch of ****ing poets

[teedubya]

As sad as the no INT schtick is Battle has actually gone on the field and made a few plays here and there...he isn't consistant enough to be a player for us I wouldn't mind if he got cut but the guy has done some good things during his time...you can't say the same for Battle.


you cant say anything nice about Battle, please dont say anything at all.

[|Zach|]

Woops, the first one should read Bartee.

[Cormac]

I'm starting to see Vermeil as a bridge between the kind of thug team that Marty had and the kind of team that Edwards appears to want to build.

Marty went for talent over character with a defensive (aggressive, violent) attitude, Vermeil went for character over talent with an offensive (cerebral) attitude, and Edwards appears to want both talent and character with a return to defensive attitude.

And by defensive attitude, I mean the mindset of the team, not necessarily an emphasis on defense. I think the team will be tougher and more violent on both sides of the ball. For instance, I see Larry Johnson as a player with a defensive attitude, although he's a running back...

Either way, while Vermeil did improve the character of the team, and help us recover from a salary cap hell in 2001, ultimately, we're headed for another salary cap hell in the next 2 years, and the end result of his 5 years here was failure, every bit as much as Marty and Gun's tenure.


Good post.

[KCTitus]

Thanks for reminding me...

Hey, what are friends for? :D

Ive always wondered if you 'ranked' draft classes among the teams how well Carl would fare against other teams. I dont have the inclination nor time to go through the time consuming task of putting all of that together to see how it worked out, but I wouldnt be too suprised if KC was in the average/mean of teams.

I did hear on the radio the other day someone talking about Buffalo and how Donahoe has totally decimated the Bills. Donahoe was a sexy GM pick that got trumpeted around here when there was speculation that Carl was on the outs...while I dont follow Buffalo, one thing I do know is that team is a mess right now.

That said...4 more years, after this one, and everyone's dream will come true. I look forward to see how things pan out.

[ChiefaRoo]

I think we're finding out now that in the current NFL you can't make them smarter or more disciplined.

You have the desire to develop that mentality when you get to the NFL level or you don't...


I agree. Battle was inconsistant at Tennessee when he was there and even after making it to the NFL he showed NOTHING. The only play I can even remember him making is the block he made for Dantes run back against the donks.

[rocks]

Thank the Gods of Football that the POS is gone!

[jlscorpio]

Lemme see if I got this right...if a guy sucks, you cut him??? What a freakin' concept, and a refeshing one at that!!! HERE, HERE!!!

[DaWolf]

Just keep in mind that with Herm's approach a player like Dante Hall also would have been cut long before he was able to blossom. It cuts both ways...

[huskerdooz]

Hopefully with Herm as HC, the Chiefs will actually draft CB's that have played the position in college and have the necessary skills to play the position in the pros. Both Battle and Bartee should have been drafted as Safeties. They actually may have turned into productive players if that had happened. Other than Dale Carter, name 1 college Safety that we've drafted as a CB that has panned out. Count me in the minority but I still have hope that Bartee can be converted to a Safety. With the drafting of Pollard and Paige, it may be too late for it to happen with the Chiefs though.

[RINGLEADER]

Now if Bartee gets cut the cycle will be complete.


Agreed. When -T is gone we'll know there has been a change in the player personnel thinking of the Chiefs...