LJ is no Priest Holmes

[Logical]

At least Priest could be relied on to hold on to the ball 98% of the time.

[|Zach|]

At least Priest could be relied on to hold on to the ball 98% of the time.
2003 Colts playoff game. My ass.

[JBucc]

Yeah and his TD celebration was cooler

[DomerNKC]

and i dont recall priest waiting for the fourth quarter to run hard.

[Logical]

2003 Colts playoff game. My ass.I believe that was only 1 fumble

[MichaelH]

Couldas, wouldas and shouldas. Priest is gone to that big nacho in the sky.

[morphius]

I seem to remeber him fumbling twice in a game, and getting a lot of his yards late in the game...

[|Zach|]

I believe that was only 1 fumble
And I believe we win that game without it. I never forgave him for that.

[TRR]

LJ needs to hold on to the football. Bottom line. He has put the ball on the floor way too much in the last 2 seasons. It has become an issue. If I was Herman Edwards, I would rip his *ss in the locker room, and tell him to hold on to the ball, or he can pout on the bench for the next half.

[dirk digler]

And I believe we win that game without it. I never forgave him for that.

Cmon Zach yes it was a big turnover but the D didn't make 1 freaking stop. If you score 30+ pts in a playoff game you should win.

The D screwed us not Priest

['Hamas' Jenkins]

And I believe we win that game without it. I never forgave him for that.

Yeah, because it's not like he set a Chiefs postseason record for rushing yardage in that game. I also seem to remember him forgetting to get pressure on Manning on every third down too. And he persuaded the refs to throw that O-PI call on Tony when he caught a touchdown in the North Endzone. That motherf*cker.

[teedubya]

How many times has L.J. fumbled this year? 3-4? I dont recall.

Its getting ludicrous. I dont dig it at all.

[Hootie]

it needs to stop; but this thread is stupid.

[CupidStunt]

Holmes never had blocking HALF this bad.

Get a f*cking grip.

[PastorMikH]

Cmon Zach yes it was a big turnover but the D didn't make 1 freaking stop. If you score 30+ pts in a playoff game you should win.

The D screwed us not Priest




BINGO!

[|Zach|]

He obviously wasn't the only problem...I am not trying to make that point.

My point is simple. He holds on to the ball. We win.

I don't see how anybody can doubt that.

[KCinNY]

LJ's blocking is still pretty terrible also.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

He obviously wasn't the only problem...I am not trying to make that point.

My point is simple. He holds on to the ball. We win.

I don't see how anybody can doubt that.

You are also placing him as the locus of blame for the loss, and that's bullshit, total bullshit. He single-handedly kept us in that game.

[Hootie]

LJ's blocking is still pretty terrible also.
wtf are you talking about?!

He had three very nice pass blocks in the first half...the sack occurred because huard didn't step up in the pocket.

[KCinNY]

wtf are you talking about?!

He had three very nice pass blocks in the first half...the sack occurred because huard didn't step up in the pocket.

No, that sack happened because the saftey went right through LJ.

[dirk digler]

He obviously wasn't the only problem...I am not trying to make that point.

My point is simple. He holds on to the ball. We win.

I don't see how anybody can doubt that.

If the D makes 1 stop we win

I don't see how anybody can doubt that.

[|Zach|]

You are also placing him as the locus of blame for the loss, and that's bullshit, total bullshit. He single-handedly kept us in that game.
So you agree with my main point.

I am not saying he is the only reason we lost.

[Hootie]

people...

why the **** are we talking about the 2003 playoff loss?

STFU and worry about this game. Jesus Christ. You're all a bunch of negative faggots.

[Logical]

To be clear I am only ragging on LJ for his fumbling not for any other reason. He is now an adequate blocker but he got beat by Wilson that one time. Everyone will get beat on occasion.

[DomerNKC]

Chester McGlocton thinks lj takes too many plays off.

[PastorMikH]

Priest - 6 years with the Chiefs (68 games). 8293 yards of production -11 fumbles. 1 fumble for every 754 yards of O.

LJ - 4 years with the Chiefs (35 games). 3517 total yards of production - 6 fumbles. 1 fumble for every 586 yards of production (through the first half today).

[JohnnyV13]

Priest was BETTER than 98% ball security. In 2072 career touches, Priest has 12 total fumbles (reg. season). That's around .6 of one percent, an outstanding ball security rate. Or, to put it another way, Holmes averaged 174 touches before he lost the ball.

With the chiefs, he was even better than his career average. In KC, he averaged 190 touches before losing the ball.

[Deberg_1990]

Hes the thing. Priest would not have the fumbling problems like LJ has had these past few weeks. But LJ has far more breakaway ability and Priest would not have made that much yardage on the screen pass. You have to take the good with the bad.

[KC Jones]

They are different backs.

Priest was better at:
protecting the ball
catching the ball
getting tough yards in tight situations
pass protection

LJ is better at:
break away speed
getting extra yards after he's downfield a bit

Behind a better O-line I'd rather have LJ because he can destroy teams if he has the openings. Behind the current O-line Holmes would fair better because he's a bit shiftier/smaller and can really squeeze through tight openings.

Pointless argument though, because Holmes is done.

[ROYC75]

Holmes never had blocking HALF this bad.

Get a f*cking grip.

But Holmes was twice the blocker LJ is ......... LJ is horrible at blocking & pass protection.

[Logical]

Right now I just hope LJ is alright, that tackle by the face mask was brutal.

[Marcellus]

Holmes was already a vet when he came to KC. LJ is fumbling too much but he is still younger.

He will get better.

I am more concerned with WHEN he fumbles.It always seems to be deep in the KC end of the field or in the red zone.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

They are different backs.

Priest was better at:
protecting the ball
catching the ball
getting tough yards in tight situations
pass protection

LJ is better at:
break away speed
getting extra yards after he's downfield a bit

Behind a better O-line I'd rather have LJ because he can destroy teams if he has the openings. Behind the current O-line Holmes would fair better because he's a bit shiftier/smaller and can really squeeze through tight openings.

Pointless argument though, because Holmes is done.

Interesting argument, however, because w/ PH, we don't give them 10 points, but w/ LJ we don't get that huge screen or that man beast td reception.

[eChief]

On the first fumble Huard never got the ball into LJ, it was a fumble but it wasn't the total fault of LJ.

The second fumble was questionable. They didn't see enough evidence to turn the play around, but then on all of the replay's I saw there wasn't a good shot of LJ being down before the ball came loose.

If the O-line could block just a little LJ might have had a few more yards, he basically never got beyond the box. Did anyone notice if he went into the line looking for a hole or just went into the pre-programmed hole?

[Demonpenz]

WEll atleast it wasn't fujita

[htismaqe]

I am more concerned with WHEN he fumbles.It always seems to be deep in the KC end of the field or in the red zone.

Yeah.

[PastorMikH]

Hes the thing. Priest would not have the fumbling problems like LJ has had these past few weeks. But LJ has far more breakaway ability and Priest would not have made that much yardage on the screen pass. You have to take the good with the bad.



If LJ protected the ball like Priest did, he'd still have his breakaway ability without the fumbles. Like I said in a post now burried on the game thread, Priest used to put the ball in the middle of his gut and wrap both arms around it until he got into the open field. LJ usually has the ball tucked in one arm when he hits the pile.

AND whether LJ was down or not on the second fumble doesn't matter. If he'd hold onto the ball until he gets up and then tosses it to the refs there's no question. But sometimes he puts the ball down on the turf pretty quickly after going down.

[PastorMikH]

Holmes was already a vet when he came to KC. LJ is fumbling too much but he is still younger.

He will get better.

I am more concerned with WHEN he fumbles.It always seems to be deep in the KC end of the field or in the red zone.


Holmes only had 4 fumbles in his career (32 games) before coming to KC.

[Deberg_1990]

If LJ protected the ball like Priest did, he'd still have his breakaway ability without the fumbles.



I agree with you. I wish he would work harder on the basic fundementals of his game more. There are a few players on this team that need work on that. Parker, Kennison.......Its frustrating to me...UGH!!! Those litte things are what seperates champions from pretenders....

[boogblaster]

LJ isnt no PH but PH isnt no LJ either..LJ and Tynes won that game today....

[jspchief]

LJ led the league in fumbles lost last year, and is on pace to do it again this year with even more fumbles lost.

It's a problem. God bless him for that long screen to give us the win, but he also gave the Cards 10 points off his fumbles.

Someone needs to start working with him on it. Tiki Barber was fumble prone his entire career, and finally someone taught him to hold on to the ball and he's been solid since. It's time for the coaching staff to put some serious effort into teaching him to take a hand-off and hold on to the f*cking ball once he gets it.

[ROYC75]

FTR, on that screen pass, when Rolle went to tackle him LJ couldn't use his right arm to stiff arm the guy, it was occupied by the ball. The whole damn run, LJ had the ball in his right hand, which clearly should have been in his left hand allowing the use of the right hand.

He needs to be taught this, could have prevented the face mask / neck injury.

[PastorMikH]

FTR, on that screen pass, when Rolle went to tackle him LJ couldn't use his right arm to stiff arm the guy, it was occupied by the ball. The whole damn run, LJ had the ball in his right hand, which clearly should have been in his left hand allowing the use of the right hand.

He needs to be taught this, could have prevented the face mask / neck injury.

I think I remember hearing that they have tried to work with LJ to switch the ball like he's supposed to. He just won't do it.

[TRR]

LJ led the league in fumbles lost last year, and is on pace to do it again this year with even more fumbles lost.

It's a problem. God bless him for that long screen to give us the win, but he also gave the Cards 10 points off his fumbles.

Someone needs to start working with him on it. Tiki Barber was fumble prone his entire career, and finally someone taught him to hold on to the ball and he's been solid since. It's time for the coaching staff to put some serious effort into teaching him to take a hand-off and hold on to the f*cking ball once he gets it.Jamal Lewis lost more fumbles last season than Larry Johnson.

At any rate, it is a concern. When running, LJ carries the ball away from his hip, and any time he gets hit while doing that, there is a 90% chance he is going to lose the football. He puts it out there for everyone to swipe at it.

Hopefully this is corrected.

[Pants]

And I believe we win that game without it. I never forgave him for that.

Yeah, sure was on Priest's shoulders, that one. I mean the D did all they possibly could, and he had to go **** it up...

[Imon Yourside]

And I believe we win that game without it. I never forgave him for that.


We also could have won that game if we had gotten a stop somewhere in those 15 manning possessions.

[donkhater]

LJ led the league in fumbles lost last year, and is on pace to do it again this year with even more fumbles lost.

It's a problem. God bless him for that long screen to give us the win, but he also gave the Cards 10 points off his fumbles.

Someone needs to start working with him on it. Tiki Barber was fumble prone his entire career, and finally someone taught him to hold on to the ball and he's been solid since. It's time for the coaching staff to put some serious effort into teaching him to take a hand-off and hold on to the f*cking ball once he gets it.
I thought it was pretty obvious last year after the Oakland game:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=2721550#post2721550

But I've been told I'm the dumbest poster on the planet, so what do I know?

[Calcountry]

people...

why the **** are we talking about the 2003 playoff loss?

STFU and worry about this game. Jesus Christ. You're all a bunch of negative pillowbiters.Because it is Hamas, terrorizing a thread again with his inciteful debates.

:rolleyes:

[Wichita Lineman]

I've said it before and I'll say it again Larry Johnson is not worth all the hype. The dude cannot get the ball in the end zone on short yardage and he refuses to block hard in fact I think he's somewhat like Randy Moss in that he seems to take off on certain plays if he's not getting the ball. The homers can sing his praise all they want but he's not as good as he gets credit for.

[CupidStunt]

They are different backs.

Priest was better at:
protecting the ball
catching the ball
getting tough yards in tight situations
pass protection


Catching the ball?

Holmes isn't half the receiver Johnson is.

Holmes caught a ton of balls in Al Saunders' offense but he didn't do nearly as much with it as Johnson does.

[Brock]

Catching the ball?

Holmes isn't half the receiver Johnson is.

Holmes caught a ton of balls in Al Saunders' offense but he didn't do nearly as much with it as Johnson does.


That's ****ing hilarious.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Because it is Hamas, terrorizing a thread again with his inciteful debates.

:rolleyes:

You know Lloyd, just when I think you can't get any dumber, you go and do something like showing a complete inability to see who brought up the playoff fumble first, which displays a near infantile lack of reading comprehension skills


AND TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!

[CupidStunt]

That's ****ing hilarious.

The stats say otherwise.

LJ's career ELEVEN-POINT-SEVEN (freaking 11.7, ffs) career average says otherwise.

Shit, the dude is tearing it up this year at a pace Holmes couldn't even dream of sniffing.

[CoMoChief]

2003 Colts playoff game. My ass.


You really can't think of any other time he fumbled the ball. That just happened at the worst possible time. Priest held on to the ball 98% of the time. LJ needs to secure the ball better.

[Deberg_1990]

. The dude cannot get the ball in the end zone on short yardage

Yea, thats why he had 20 rushing TD's last year. WTF????

[PastorMikH]

Catching the ball?

Holmes isn't half the receiver Johnson is.

Holmes caught a ton of balls in Al Saunders' offense but he didn't do nearly as much with it as Johnson does.


I sure wished the NFL had a stat for dropped passes.

FWIW, LJ is averaging 2 yards more than Priest per catch (Priest 9.6, LJ 11.7). Priest racked up 2,360 yards receiving in KC over the time he played here. That's more than Faulk put up in StL in the same time period and Priest played 8 less games. LJ has the speed to outrun everyone once he is past the defense. Priest was better at getting past the defenders.


'Course I realize that on today's internet Stats aren't really a reliable factor to make comparisons between players.

[PastorMikH]

The stats say otherwise.

LJ's career ELEVEN-POINT-SEVEN (freaking 11.7, ffs) career average says otherwise.

Shit, the dude is tearing it up this year at a pace Holmes couldn't even dream of sniffing.


Dude. for the stats to back up what you say, Priest would have to average 5.85 yards per catch.

[PastorMikH]

As for the complaints about Priest fumbling in the playoff game, Priest fumbled in 3 games at KC that KC lost.

11/29/01 against Philly
9/22/02 against NE
1/11/04 against Indy


That's pretty remarkable IMO.

[Deberg_1990]

All this debate is nonsense. Apples and Oranges.

They are two completely different backs with a different set of skill sets. Priest (god love him) isnt here anymore. LJ is still an ascending player. He will learn as he goes along.

[donkhater]

As for the complaints about Priest fumbling in the playoff game, Priest fumbled in 3 games at KC that KC lost.

11/29/01 against Philly
9/22/02 against NE
1/11/04 against Indy


That's pretty remarkable IMO.
I thought he lost a fumble vs. Carolina or Houston in '04 as well. In fact I seem to remember he uncharacteristically fumbled quite a bit in '04.

[donkhater]

I thought he lost a fumble vs. Carolina or Houston in '04 as well. In fact I seem to remember he uncharacteristically fumbled quite a bit in '04.
I guess I should have checked first.

He fumbled twice against Atlanta and twice against Indy in back-to-back games in '04. KC dominated both those games so no one really remembers. But I guess it's because it was 2 times, two games in a row that it seemed like it was a big problem that year.

[FringeNC]

I don't remember Priest coming out on third downs very often, like Larry Johnson does.

Overall, Holmes was the better player because of his blocking and pass-catching.

Having to take LJ out on third down tells the defense it is going to be a pass for sure.

[tk13]

That was something John Madden was actually pretty astute about. I remember him talking about Larry Johnson before he really blew up, and he agreed he's going to be a really good player, but his one complaint was Madden thought he exposed the ball a little too much and could be fumble prone. That might be catching up with him a little this year. It has to be fixed. Turnovers are never good, but if we're going to rein it in and play the way Herm wants us to play, we can't keep losing the turnover battle every week. We might be 3-1 right now and looking great if we could just win the turnover battle.

[PastorMikH]

That was something John Madden was actually pretty astute about. I remember him talking about Larry Johnson before he really blew up, and he agreed he's going to be a really good player, but his one complaint was Madden thought he exposed the ball a little too much and could be fumble prone. That might be catching up with him a little this year. It has to be fixed. Turnovers are never good, but if we're going to rein it in and play the way Herm wants us to play, we can't keep losing the turnover battle every week. We might be 3-1 right now and looking great if we could just win the turnover battle.


3-1 with Trent still playing. The reason he was scrambling in the first place was his teamates weren't making the plays.

[PastorMikH]

I thought he lost a fumble vs. Carolina or Houston in '04 as well. In fact I seem to remember he uncharacteristically fumbled quite a bit in '04.



In '04 he had 4 fumbles. Oddly enough they came back to back (2 per game) to Atlanta and Indy in October of '04. We won both games though so I did not include them as I was looking for games Holmes might recieve blame for losing because of a fumble.

[Raiderhater]

I've said it before and I'll say it again Larry Johnson is not worth all the hype. The dude cannot get the ball in the end zone on short yardage and he refuses to block hard in fact I think he's somewhat like Randy Moss in that he seems to take off on certain plays if he's not getting the ball. The homers can sing his praise all they want but he's not as good as he gets credit for.


Smoke dope much?

[PastorMikH]

I've said it before and I'll say it again Larry Johnson is not worth all the hype. The dude cannot get the ball in the end zone on short yardage and he refuses to block hard in fact I think he's somewhat like Randy Moss in that he seems to take off on certain plays if he's not getting the ball. The homers can sing his praise all they want but he's not as good as he gets credit for.



Even though I'm frustrated with LJ right now I would say that either. He is one of the top backs in the game. The thread is about LJ compared to Holmes. Holmes was an exceptional RB that could have been among the best ever had he been able to stay healthy.

LJ needs to learn to protect the ball, catch the ball a bit better, work on goalline touchdowns, a bit more improvement on pass blocking, and even when the D is keying on him, find a way to produce. If LJ could do those things and stay healthy, he'll earn the right to be called better than Priest.