A question for anyone who has ever used a job search firm or headhunter....

[Mosbonian]

I have, on an occasion or two, been contacted by a headhunter or search firm about employment opportunities. A couple of times when I was looking for a position I contacted them hoping that they would assist me in finding an opportunity.

A recent incident I encountered while being recruited, brought back a long-standing frustration I have had with headhunters/employment agencies that has led me to believe that they are only one small notch above 'ambulance chasing' Attorneys and sleazy Used Car Salespersons.

So...my question is this:

Have you ever encountered educational or "lack of degree" bias when working with said persons? Now I am fully aware that it was my choice to forsake getting my college degree and instead choose to "on-the-job" experience as my catalyst. But after 30 years in my industry (Credit Management) I feel that my years of experience should, at the very least, be an equalizer to a college degree. But I find more and more that the moment you advise them that you have experience and not a degree, they disappear like a hooker who finds out you have no money.

Anyone ever have any similar experiences? Or anyone want to offer an opinion as to why I am being unfair to said urchins?

mmaddog
*******

[jiveturkey]

I actually own and operate a search firm and you're right about most of the people in this industry. They're usually about as unethical as a person can be and retarded on top of it.

Before starting this company I was a contractor for a large national insurance company and I was tasked with building a new division from scratch. I had a year to hire 2500 employees nation wide and I was given just about any resource a person could ask for. I had a team of 7 people under and also managed the relationships we had with outside vendors.

Once the contract was done (under budget and before deadline) I was offered a perm job and in the last interview the question was finally asked about my educational background and when I said "none" the interview came to an end.

It's probably not the headhunter who has a bias, it's the client that he's working for.

[underEJ]

I agree it's probably client -based bias, but if the recruiter has hit that wall once or twice on a potential hire, they may be inclined to include it in their own bias as well. This too depends on the industry. I have been through in-house recruiters as well as headhunters and only once ran into the no degree problem, for a Sony company. Even then, a few phone calls on my own, got me back on the list, since I had previously worked for a smaller company they regularly farm work out to.

Do you have any contacts in the headhunter's client companies? The back door is always a help. What is the percentage of people in your position who do and don't have degrees? Having some facts to preface your education answer with might help.

[Mosbonian]

I actually own and operate a search firm and you're right about most of the people in this industry. They're usually about as unethical as a person can be and retarded on top of it.

Before starting this company I was a contractor for a large national insurance company and I was tasked with building a new division from scratch. I had a year to hire 2500 employees nation wide and I was given just about any resource a person could ask for. I had a team of 7 people under and also managed the relationships we had with outside vendors.

Once the contract was done (under budget and before deadline) I was offered a perm job and in the last interview the question was finally asked about my educational background and when I said "none" the interview came to an end.

It's probably not the headhunter who has a bias, it's the client that he's working for.

Interestingly enough, a job or two ago I was contacted about an open position by a Headhunter. He was all gung-ho about getting me an interview and wanting my resume' ASAP. Once I got him my resume' he got real quiet and even had to chase him down to talk to him. He told me the company he was searching for was requiring a degree to interview for the job.

In the meantime a friend of mine called me and told me that his company had just fired their Credit Manager and that they were looking for a qualified applicant. I sent my resume' and a week later got a call to come in for an interview. When I get to the place for the interview, guess who I ran into? Yep, you guessed it.....the very same headhunter. Talk about being shocked.....what was even better? I got the job over his candidate....the very job he said that I couldn't get an interview for because I didn't have a degree!

Know what was even more galling? A week after I started he called the company and tried to get them to pay him a fee because I was "his client". My new boss told him to get lost....

mmaddog
*******

[Taco John]

If you're not willing to party for a few years after high school while learning how to maintain at least a basic level of competency, what good are you?

[Mosbonian]

I agree it's probably client -based bias, but if the recruiter has hit that wall once or twice on a potential hire, they may be inclined to include it in their own bias as well. This too depends on the industry. I have been through in-house recruiters as well as headhunters and only once ran into the no degree problem, for a Sony company. Even then, a few phone calls on my own, got me back on the list, since I had previously worked for a smaller company they regularly farm work out to.

Do you have any contacts in the headhunter's client companies? The back door is always a help. What is the percentage of people in your position who do and don't have degrees? Having some facts to preface your education answer with might help.

In my industry more and more Credit Professionals are getting degrees...a great deal of it depends on the type of Credit work that you do....Credit Analysts are more likely to have Degrees because most of them are former Accounting students. But I see more of a trend of job consolidation where the Credit Manager gets let go and they farm the job to the Accounting Manager who has no earthly clue how to handle a Credit & Collections function.

I have found it easier to get job's using the method of direct contact. And whenever I have been in a position where I have needed the services of a search firm to assist me in staffing needs, I usually "qualify" them by asking several questions that will tell me if they have the ''degree-only" bias that makes them sometimes miss a diamond in the rough.

mmaddog
*******

[Mosbonian]

If you're not willing to party for a few years after high school while learning how to maintain at least a basic level of competency, what good are you?

I already knew I would fail miserably at Party and Be Drunk 101, so I skipped that and went directly to Work Your Ass Off 201. It meant I had to be twice as good as the guys in PABD 101, but I managed to accomplish that.

Now if i could just get past the Fraternity Brother Needs a Job 205 I might figure out how to be successful.

mmaddog
*******

[underEJ]

I have found it easier to get job's using the method of direct contact. And whenever I have been in a position where I have needed the services of a search firm to assist me in staffing needs, I usually "qualify" them by asking several questions that will tell me if they have the ''degree-only" bias that makes them sometimes miss a diamond in the rough.

mmaddog
*******


I see, you are hoping they don't exclude someone who might be valuable to you.

I have previously walked away from a company's contracted recruiter at a convention because the first question he asked me when I handed him my materials was where did you go to school? They definitely missed not just a diamond in the rough, but a top industry professional, because I took back my resume and reel before I walked away.

I may not be able to do that in the same situation today because there are tons of Computer Graphics grads these days, and I'm not nearly as rare as I once was just a short 10 years ago.

[Mosbonian]

I see, you are hoping they don't exclude someone who might be valuable to you.

I have previously walked away from a company's contracted recruiter at a convention because the first question he asked me when I handed him my materials was where did you go to school? They definitely missed not just a diamond in the rough, but a top industry professional, because I took back my resume and reel before I walked away.

I may not be able to do that in the same situation today because there are tons of Computer Graphics grads these days, and I'm not nearly as rare as I once was just a short 10 years ago.

I understand how hard it is when you didn't necessarily have the best opportunity to go to college. I have had to work hard to overcome the bias that is there in the employment field that a person is more highly qualified than most if they have that college diploma. I'm a little more open-minded....I know in certain positions a college degree is necessary.
But I also know that a college degree isn't a certainty of being a quality candidate.

mmaddog
*******

[Simply Red]

I trust you're not offering the fact that you don't have a degree. My best advice to you is fairly rudementary. First find someone who can create a resume well and extremely professional. I realize you're not in sales, however; treat every call to a prospective employer as a "sales-call" and you hear it all the time, But it is so damn true, Sell yourself! Typically if you get the interview w/o your lack of a degree being brought up means it is probably not a prerequisite. Buy a nice suit and definately wear a suit. Take your planner with a zip-style notebook, buy a nice pen, like a Waterman or even a real nice one at Walmart a professional looking one, really brand doesn't matter. Body language is a must, Never tilt your head to the side or if you nod fast it looks phony. Rest your arms on the chair arms(don't fidget). You need to do most of the talking, not them. Finally thank them for their time and simply tell them you'd like the job. I have been coached recently and happen to be in the job market myself, I have an Interview on Monday and Tuesday for a recruiting job in the Medical industry. I didn't mean to be so long-winded, I'd just like to help in anyway I can. Feel free to pm me for any questions you may have. Also one last thing get there 20 minutes early and send them a thank you letter call them in two days. I realize I probably gave you more of an answer then you were looking for, I know hunting for a job can almost be demoralizing and depressing. But I promise if you challenge yourself and make it like a game it will all pay off. Just remembered one other point; never disclose your current job salary. If they ask, you need to exaggerate it, they'll never be able to find out.

You probably know a lot of this but I just hope something I've stated will help you.

[Simply Red]

Oh and conservative tie; Dark is good solid is fine, try not to go over three colors on your tie. Navy with white or silver vertical pinstripes would be a good one to go with.

and Wingtips Florsheims are fine, but again brand isn't all that important. What you want to stay away from with a suit is a "Square Toe" shoe. You'd remind them of someone who just graduated HS subscribing to MAXIM MAG.

Sorry to go on and on. I have went through all of this before and frankly it can get down right depressing.

Know I was long winded again,

But hope I helped.

GOOD LUCK!

[jiveturkey]

Know what was even more galling? A week after I started he called the company and tried to get them to pay him a fee because I was "his client". My new boss told him to get lost....

mmaddog
*******Sounds like a typical headhunter.

[jiveturkey]

Oh and conservative tie; Dark is good solid is fine, try not to go over three colors on your tie. Navy with white or silver vertical pinstripes would be a good one to go with.

and Wingtips Florsheims are fine, but again brand isn't all that important. What you want to stay away from with a suit is a "Square Toe" shoe. You'd remind them of someone who just graduated HS subscribing to MAXIM MAG.

You wouldn't believe the percentage of people that don't know how to interview. 70% is probably not to far from the truth.

[BucEyedPea]

mmaddog,
One reason employers like someone with a degree, and this is what I have heard, is that employers find, in general, that those with the degree make better employees due to having to manage getting through college. And that they apply themselves more to a job. Many of them claim that's the difference between those w/o college. Not that it's always true of course...just something I heard.

[Simply Red]

You wouldn't believe the percentage of people that don't know how to interview. 70% is probably not to far from the truth.

Nobody wants to learn how thats why. Thats also why they'll continue to be right where they are at. What puzzles me more is all of the people out there that are unhappy with where they are but are scared to make a move to better themselves.

[Rain Man]

It's probably not the headhunter who has a bias, it's the client that he's working for.

That's what I was going to say. The guy probably has orders to deliver candidates with a specific set of qualifications, so he has to cull out anyone who doesn't fit.

[JazzzLovr]

You need to do most of the talking, not them.

:eek: It's a wonder that I've been hired as often as I have.




;)

[Mosbonian]

I trust you're not offering the fact that you don't have a degree. My best advice to you is fairly rudementary. First find someone who can create a resume well and extremely professional. I realize you're not in sales, however; treat every call to a prospective employer as a "sales-call" and you hear it all the time, But it is so damn true, Sell yourself! Typically if you get the interview w/o your lack of a degree being brought up means it is probably not a prerequisite. Buy a nice suit and definately wear a suit. Take your planner with a zip-style notebook, buy a nice pen, like a Waterman or even a real nice one at Walmart a professional looking one, really brand doesn't matter. Body language is a must, Never tilt your head to the side or if you nod fast it looks phony. Rest your arms on the chair arms(don't fidget). You need to do most of the talking, not them. Finally thank them for their time and simply tell them you'd like the job. I have been coached recently and happen to be in the job market myself, I have an Interview on Monday and Tuesday for a recruiting job in the Medical industry. I didn't mean to be so long-winded, I'd just like to help in anyway I can. Feel free to pm me for any questions you may have. Also one last thing get there 20 minutes early and send them a thank you letter call them in two days. I realize I probably gave you more of an answer then you were looking for, I know hunting for a job can almost be demoralizing and depressing. But I promise if you challenge yourself and make it like a game it will all pay off. Just remembered one other point; never disclose your current job salary. If they ask, you need to exaggerate it, they'll never be able to find out.

You probably know a lot of this but I just hope something I've stated will help you.

Simply Red:

I've probably left you with several impressions that are not true...

1) I am not actively pursuing a position. I am very happy with the position that I have now, but I am always open to listening to other offers. This headhunter actually called me.

2) I never "offer" that I don't have a degree. In fact when it is brought up, I am always up front and confirm that I have taken several college courses that are pertinent to my profession. I mostly steer them to my 30 years of experience and guide the conversations to those goals that I have achieved at each position.

mmaddog
*******

[Mosbonian]

mmaddog,
One reason employers like someone with a degree, and this is what I have heard, is that employers find, in general, that those with the degree make better employees due to having to manage getting through college. And that they apply themselves more to a job. Many of them claim that's the difference between those w/o college. Not that it's always true of course...just something I heard.

This is what I define as "educational bias" or the "this guy can't be as professional because he didn't go to college syndrome". And quite frankly is nothing but bovine feces.

Having been a Manager for approximately 25 years I can tell you that the concept that college graduates apply themselves more to a job is crap. Some of the smartest Team Members that I have had the pleasure of working with never darkened the door of a university. But they had common sense and desire that you would kill for. And another thing they didn't have that you sometimes find in college grads....the "entitlement syndrome". You know that belief that because I have the sheepskin I automatically belong to Senior Management and deserve the keys to the Company Car.

mmaddog
*******

[Mosbonian]

That's what I was going to say. The guy probably has orders to deliver candidates with a specific set of qualifications, so he has to cull out anyone who doesn't fit.

Not when the job description states "a Bachelor's Degree or an equivalent match in work experience and education"

mmaddog
*******

[Rain Man]

Not when the job description states "a Bachelor's Degree or an equivalent match in work experience and education"

mmaddog
*******

You're probably right about that.

[Mojo Rising]

Not when the job description states "a Bachelor's Degree or an equivalent match in work experience and education"

mmaddog
*******

I used to be in that line of work and they sometimes include "or equivalent experience" to accommodate other employees in the company who hold the position who don't have a degree (usually they are internal promotions.)

Good Recruiters will interview the hiring manager to get exactly what they're looking for. They will read through the descript and requirements with the manager and find out what is important and what is not.

It is likely that the Manager told the guy to only send people with degrees. If this is the case, you should be thankful that he isn't leading you on in thinking he submitted you and is awaiting feedback.

A real scumbag Recruiter would have said he sent your resume (while not really sending it) to the Manager and then strung you along. This would prevent you from pursuing the position through other avenues.

Keep in mind that when a company hires someone through an agency they pay a fee. They have much higher expectations for employees that they have to pay for (usually 20-25% of the 1st years salary) than ones they can hire directly for no fee.

HR usually likes to discourage fees also. It looks bad for an HR dept. when a Hiring Manager has to pay a fee to hire someone. It is like the Manager is saying that because HR couldn't do their job and find a suitable candidate, the company had to bear an additional cost.

Take it for what it's worth. I placed High Tech professionals in the Bay Area for about 8 years. I also worked for a year as a internal Recruiter for the largest payment processor in the world so I have a good knowledge of the industry.

I am also glad to be out of that business. Candidates think your ripping them off at every corner as do the hiring managers. I worked for reputable companies and always acted with the highest of ethics but people don't like it when you're making money off of them.

[BucEyedPea]

This is what I define as "educational bias" or the "this guy can't be as professional because he didn't go to college syndrome". And quite frankly is nothing but bovine feces.

Having been a Manager for approximately 25 years I can tell you that the concept that college graduates apply themselves more to a job is crap. Some of the smartest Team Members that I have had the pleasure of working with never darkened the door of a university. But they had common sense and desire that you would kill for. And another thing they didn't have that you sometimes find in college grads....the "entitlement syndrome". You know that belief that because I have the sheepskin I automatically belong to Senior Management and deserve the keys to the Company Car.

mmaddog
*******
You're absolutely right with the "entitlement syndrome" point in college kids. I see it all the time at the college I teach at part-time.

I have also talked with one of the heads of the Nat'l Assoc of Manufacturers in DC. He claimed that today (this was 1997/8 or so) that a college degree today
was equivalent to what a high school diploma once was.

[Mosbonian]

If this is the case, you should be thankful that he isn't leading you on in thinking he submitted you and is awaiting feedback.

A real scumbag Recruiter would have said he sent your resume (while not really sending it) to the Manager and then strung you along. This would prevent you from pursuing the position through other avenues..

Oh, I am pretty sure he is leading me on and probably never even submitted me to the company. When we do talk again I will tip him off to the telltale signs he gave me that he was lying to me in the first place.

What's even better....I called a friend of mine who is a Credit professional in the town this job is located in. I asked him if he had any skinny on what company this might be. He called one of his contacts in another of the search firms and thinks he has it nailed as to what company it is. He is getting me a name of the HR person I need to contact and forward my resume to.

mmaddog
*******

[Simplex3]

mmaddog,
One reason employers like someone with a degree, and this is what I have heard, is that employers find, in general, that those with the degree make better employees due to having to manage getting through college. And that they apply themselves more to a job. Many of them claim that's the difference between those w/o college. Not that it's always true of course...just something I heard.
This is a theory that lots of hiring managers have, though there's no evidence to back it up.

Personally I've found that college grads are about 50/50 on whether or not they are self-motivated. Nearly everyone I've hired that didn't have a college degree was a self-starter. I'm not hiring people under the $40k mark, however.

As for clothing and attire, I work in computer software and I would never wear anything nicer than khakis and a polo. If you dress up they assume you suck at your job and have to land the job by kissing butt. If you show up looking like hell they immediately believe that you must be one of those gurus they're looking for.

For a general job interview I would call ahead and ask what they wear. Wear a very nice version of whatever they wear. If they're business casual having you in a full suit isn't comfortable for anyone.

[BucEyedPea]

This is a theory that lots of hiring managers have, though there's no evidence to back it up.

Personally I've found that college grads are about 50/50 on whether or not they are self-motivated. Nearly everyone I've hired that didn't have a college degree was a self-starter. I'm not hiring people under the $40k mark, however.

As for clothing and attire, I work in computer software and I would never wear anything nicer than khakis and a polo. If you dress up they assume you suck at your job and have to land the job by kissing butt. If you show up looking like hell they immediately believe that you must be one of those gurus they're looking for.

For a general job interview I would call ahead and ask what they wear. Wear a very nice version of whatever they wear. If they're business casual having you in a full suit isn't comfortable for anyone.
Interesting info, including calling up about the clothes.

[bogie]

Here's my experience in hiring. If I'm looking for an entry level position that I hope will grow within the company, I look at college education. If I'm hiring an upper level position, I don't care about college education, I care about experience.

[bogie]

On the other hand, one of my best hires was a guy with no education and no experience but was loaded with desire.

[Bootlegged]

I actually own and operate a search firm and you're right about most of the people in this industry. They're usually about as unethical as a person can be and retarded on top of it.

Before starting this company I was a contractor for a large national insurance company and I was tasked with building a new division from scratch. I had a year to hire 2500 employees nation wide and I was given just about any resource a person could ask for. I had a team of 7 people under and also managed the relationships we had with outside vendors.

Once the contract was done (under budget and before deadline) I was offered a perm job and in the last interview the question was finally asked about my educational background and when I said "none" the interview came to an end.

It's probably not the headhunter who has a bias, it's the client that he's working for.


Coaster Recruiters, LLC?

[Simply Red]

This is a theory that lots of hiring managers have, though there's no evidence to back it up.

Personally I've found that college grads are about 50/50 on whether or not they are self-motivated. Nearly everyone I've hired that didn't have a college degree was a self-starter. I'm not hiring people under the $40k mark, however.

As for clothing and attire, I work in computer software and I would never wear anything nicer than khakis and a polo. If you dress up they assume you suck at your job and have to land the job by kissing butt. If you show up looking like hell they immediately believe that you must be one of those gurus they're looking for.

For a general job interview I would call ahead and ask what they wear. Wear a very nice version of whatever they wear. If they're business casual having you in a full suit isn't comfortable for anyone.


I'm sorry Simplex but I absolutely disagree with you. I'll always wear a suite when interviewing I think it is absolutely critical and the professional-way to present yourself including all of the details I mentioned. There may be some exceptions with some interviewers, but I'd rather look professional and not need to, then look amatuer, since most hiring mgrs. are looking at image as a contributing-factor when they hire. I would never call ahead and ask what they wear.

[Simply Red]

I'm sorry Simplex but I absolutely disagree with you. I'll always wear a suite when interviewing I think it is absolutely critical and the professional-way to present yourself including all of the details I mentioned. There may be some exceptions with some interviewers, but I'd rather look professional and not need to, then look amatuer, since most hiring mgrs. are looking at image as a contributing-factor when they hire. I would never call ahead and ask what they wear.

No offense of course Simplex. You know I like you and mean no harm. JMO.

:)

[Simplex3]

I'm sorry Simplex but I absolutely disagree with you. I'll always wear a suite when interviewing I think it is absolutely critical and the professional-way to present yourself including all of the details I mentioned. There may be some exceptions with some interviewers, but I'd rather look professional and not need to, then look amatuer, since most hiring mgrs. are looking at image as a contributing-factor when they hire. I would never call ahead and ask what they wear.
IMO you have to consider the industry, the level of job you're applying for, etc. etc. It's all a numbers game because unless you know someone on the inside you're just guessing about what the hiring manager is looking for.

[Simplex3]

Another thing I look at is "What am I willing to do for them long term?" I don't even do the interview in an attire I'm not willing to wear every day for that job. If you want me to wear a suit every day you'd better be ready to pony up.

:)

[Simply Red]

IMO you have to consider the industry, the level of job you're applying for, etc. etc. It's all a numbers game because unless you know someone on the inside you're just guessing about what the hiring manager is looking for.

Okay, industry does matter I'll give ya that. Interesting angle.

[Simply Red]

Another thing I look at is "What am I willing to do for them long term?" I don't even do the interview in an attire I'm not willing to wear every day for that job. If you want me to wear a suit every day you'd better be ready to pony up.

:)

Well as you already know; If one chooses to wear a suit and happens to get hired they'll usually clear-up what the dress-code will be moving forward. When you say "Pony-Up" what exactly do you mean?

[Simplex3]

Well as you already know; If one chooses to wear a suit and happens to get hired they'll usually clear-up what the dress-code will be moving forward. When you say "Pony-Up" what exactly do you mean?
Pony up the cash.

It's been a long, long time since I've been desperate to pay the bills, so I don't have the same motivation to get a specific job that some others do. For me the interview is a two-way street. They're hoping to find out if I can do the job, but I'm also trying to figure out if this is a place I want to work. I break a lot of the "rules" when I interview. I ask as many questions as I answer, I ask things that are typically taboo, I'll question my interviewer about their job satisfaction, etc.

The first interview I did for the job I currently hold is a good example. I really wasn't interested in the job, but I will take just about any interview as practice and because you just never know. As such I decided to try some things out and see what I could get away with.

I showed up in khakis and a polo, of course the recruiter wanted a suit and tie. There were three people interviewing me and I flat refused to answer any of the questions from one of the interviewers. A couple of times when they asked the "how would you handle X situation" I went with "I won't be doing that in this job." I didn't go with the approach of being rude, but I was certainly more "this is how it will be done" than I really am. It was interesting to watch their reactions, and obviously they liked me, they doubled their budget and changed the job description to hire me.