Bonds Is Still A Giant

[PinkFloyd]

LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla. -- The Giants agreed in principle on Thursday to re-sign slugger Barry Bonds for the 2007 season, said a source with knowledge of the negotiations.
The deal, pending Bonds passing the requisite physical, is believed to be one year for $16 million, and guarantees that Bonds will continue his pursuit of Hank Aaron's Major League all-time home run record in his familiar No. 25 San Francisco uniform.

Bonds goes into 2007 with 734 homers, only 21 behind Aaron's magic 755. He hit his 715th to pass Babe Ruth into second place on the all-time list on May 28 at AT&T Park against the Rockies.

Giants officials, and Bonds' agent, Jeff Borris, were traveling on Thursday and could not be reached to comment.

But the source said Bonds, who will turn 43 midway through the 2007 season, was happy with the outcome of the nearly six weeks of negotiations since he filed for free agency after the end of the World Series.

[Dave Lane]

Would that be just his head or the whole deal?

Dave

[Sure-Oz]

He is better off, every other teams fans hate him.

[PinkFloyd]

I really figured here would be a Angel or A's player this year..

I was wrong...

[BWillie]

Since when did the NL start having a DH? How is he going to field? I haven't seen this reported yet, I would of swore Bonds would go American League so he wouldn't have to field and hurt his precious knee.

[Mecca]

Since when did the NL start having a DH? How is he going to field? I haven't seen this reported yet, I would of swore Bonds would go American League so he wouldn't have to field and hurt his precious knee.

Everytime he speaks he always says he wants to play in the field and takes pride in that.

[PinkFloyd]

Since when did the NL start having a DH? How is he going to field? I haven't seen this reported yet, I would of swore Bonds would go American League so he wouldn't have to field and hurt his precious knee.

I really thought so also... It's posted at www.royals.com

[PinkFloyd]

And also at www.mlb.com

[Ebolapox]

Bonds, at the press conference, simply said "I'd just like to thank my steroids for being so great."

<img src="http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlny/bonds_press_conference_022205_4.jpg">

[Halfcan]

I would love to see Bluto Bonds break his leg and miss the record. Giants paid 16 mil for that roided out pos. If they keep Big Mac and Sammy out of the Hall-Bluto should NEVER get in.

Hank will always be the HR king.

[Mojo Rising]

At 41 he hit around .270 and 20+ homeruns. At 42 they gave him $16 mil. The Giants are a joke. They have cobbled together a team this year of Rich Aurelia and Dave Roberts to join Bonds. They might not even win 70 games this year. Looks like the NL West is LA's again. Ever since the Dodgers swiped the Giants Assist GM last year LA has been on the rise and the Giants on the fall!

Here's to the Giants spending nearly 20% of their budget on on a washed up 42 year old soon to be convict (the Grand Jury is still preparing an indictment.)

[Mecca]

If you go look at his stats after he returned from the DL he was still a very good player.....he's still extremely valuable just for the 400+ OPB he'll bring.

[BWillie]

At 41 he hit around .270 and 20+ homeruns. At 42 they gave him $16 mil. The Giants are a joke. They have cobbled together a team this year of Rich Aurelia and Dave Roberts to join Bonds. They might not even win 70 games this year. Looks like the NL West is LA's again. Ever since the Dodgers swiped the Giants Assist GM last year LA has been on the rise and the Giants on the fall!

Here's to the Giants spending nearly 20% of their budget on on a washed up 42 year old soon to be convict (the Grand Jury is still preparing an indictment.)

You do realize he was the league leader in on base percentage last year don't you?

[Mecca]

You do realize he was the league leader in on base percentage last year don't you?

If he's not hitting 70 HR's my god he must suck.......the absolute hate people have for him is funny...

[Halfcan]

I think the hate people have for him is very natural.

First off he has always been a total D#ck to the fans and everyone else.

He is a liar, cheater, drug abuser that has tarnished the game.

So far Bluto has stolen records and made millions, while never getting caught.

He has let his best friend go to prison to save his own ass.

[Mecca]

I think the hate people have for him is very natural.

First off he has always been a total D#ck to the fans and everyone else.

He is a liar, cheater, drug abuser that has tarnished the game.

So far Bluto has stolen records and made millions, while never getting caught.

He has let his best friend go to prison to save his own ass.

If you don't think a ton of players were on roids in the last decade, I don't know what you were looking at.......just because he was the best in the steroid era doesn't make him the worst offender.......he was a great player before roids.

[Halfcan]

At 41 he hit around .270 and 20+ homeruns. At 42 they gave him $16 mil. The Giants are a joke. They have cobbled together a team this year of Rich Aurelia and Dave Roberts to join Bonds. They might not even win 70 games this year. Looks like the NL West is LA's again. Ever since the Dodgers swiped the Giants Assist GM last year LA has been on the rise and the Giants on the fall!

Here's to the Giants spending nearly 20% of their budget on on a washed up 42 year old soon to be convict (the Grand Jury is still preparing an indictment.)

Pretty easy to tell when he started juicing up- you go from 3o HR's to 73-then back to 20.

[Halfcan]

If you don't think a ton of players were on roids in the last decade, I don't know what you were looking at.......just because he was the best in the steroid era doesn't make him the worst offender.......he was a great player before roids.

He was an excellent player-many considered one of the best. But now his records mean nothing-Zero-and he should NEVER get in the HOF.

[Mecca]

He was an excellent player-many considered one of the best. But now his records mean nothing-Zero-and he should NEVER get in the HOF.

Then basically no one who played over the last 10 years should make it because virtually the whole league was juiced up....

[BWillie]

He was an excellent player-many considered one of the best. But now his records mean nothing-Zero-and he should NEVER get in the HOF.

I think Bonds would of been the best player of all time without roids, but I guess now we will never know. As is though, I have to say Bonds is definitely the best player of all time..with the aid of chemical wizardry, but then again, half of all the good home run hitters the last decade were too.

[Halfcan]

Then basically no one who played over the last 10 years should make it because virtually the whole league was juiced up....

Good point- I think we will see what will happen if Big Mac is snubbed by the HOF. If Sammy, Mac, Rafeal-don't make it, Bluto Big Head won't either.

[Halfcan]

I think Bonds would of been the best player of all time without roids, but I guess now we will never know. As is though, I have to say Bonds is definitely the best player of all time..with the aid of chemical wizardry, but then again, half of all the good home run hitters the last decade were too.

Sorry best player status will always go to Ty Cobb, then Ruth, Honus Wagner.

[Mecca]

I find it odd how people seem to think because someone played 100 years ago that makes them better.

[Mojo Rising]

Pretty easy to tell when he started juicing up- you go from 3o HR's to 73-then back to 20.

This a classic from the 10 Spot on CNNSI.

2. Barry Bonds showed up at baseball's winter meetings in Disney World on Wednesday to jump-start contract talks. Alas, the huge-headed slugger was mobbed by kids who assumed he was a Disney character.

I am pretty surprised right now at how many SF callers on the (in the 5th largest market we only have 1 sports radio channel...travesty) sports radio call in shows are anti-re-signing Bonds. This is after they all stood by him last year.

The Giants tried to sign Lee and Pierre and didn't even get a whiff. They failed at the Man Ram trade too. No one wanted Bonds or the Giants this year. They are stuck with each other.

[Thig Lyfe]

Dammit Dayton! :cuss:

[Halfcan]

I find it odd how people seem to think because someone played 100 years ago that makes them better.

Name 3 better. Honus played when the ball was made out of cloth. I can't imagine how hard he would hit todays baseballs- same with Ruth.

[Halfcan]

Since Ty was the first player in the Hall-that should say something.

[Halfcan]

Ty, Ruth and Wagner-were also 1-3 in the HOF. Ty batted over .367 for 24 years and held basically every record. Just saying.

[Frazod]

I find it odd how people seem to think because someone played 100 years ago that makes them better.

I find it odd how people seem to think somebody who played 100 years ago is somehow worse just because we can't watch their highlights on SportsCenter. Cobb was the best. His career batting average is untouchable, and he routinely played through injuries that would land modern players on the DL and keep them there (in an age lacking the benefits of modern treatment and drugs, legal or otherwise). Bonds couldn't hold his jock.

[Halfcan]

I find it odd how people seem to think somebody who played 100 years ago is somehow worse just because we can't watch their highlights on SportsCenter. Cobb was the best. His career batting average is untouchable, and he routinely played through injuries that would land modern players on the DL and keep them there (in an age lacking the benefits of modern treatment and drugs, legal or otherwise). Bonds couldn't hold his jock.

Nice point Faz- Ty once had his appendix taken out. The doctor was a shady dude that butchered the job. The next day, Ty played. The stitches burst stealing home, and he had blood all over his uniform. He lost so much blood he almost died-but keep playing. He spent the next two days in a hospitol then went out and played not missing a game.

People forget Ruth was an almost unhittable pitcher-some say the best fastball next to Walter Johnson. If Ruth had the Killer instinct of Ty-the HR record would be over 1000.

[Halfcan]

Honus knocked the hide off the ball so often they would have to call the game to find more baseballs.

Ty said Honus was one of the best he ever saw.

[whoppy]

i wish an earthquake would swallow him and the entire raiders org.!

[Frazod]

Just think what Ruth could have done in the modern era, with trainers and dieticians.

[Logical]

Just think what Ruth could have done in the modern era, with trainers and dieticians.

If he would have listened, it is my understanding he was noted for not taking advice and not taking care of himself. But yes

[Frazod]

If he would have listened, it is my understanding he was noted for not taking advice and not taking care of himself. But yes

Things are quite different now. He wouldn't be allowed to wash down 10 hotdogs with a keg of beer and then jog out on to the field. :D

[Halfcan]

I wonder how many times Skip saw him play-lol

[teedubya]

I have to say the best player of all-time was Satchel Paige... now best NON pitcher... probably Ty Cobb.

[Mecca]

I find it odd how people seem to think somebody who played 100 years ago is somehow worse just because we can't watch their highlights on SportsCenter. Cobb was the best. His career batting average is untouchable, and he routinely played through injuries that would land modern players on the DL and keep them there (in an age lacking the benefits of modern treatment and drugs, legal or otherwise). Bonds couldn't hold his jock.

If Cobb played today all anyone would talk about is what a dick the guy is.......seeing as these days if you are a great player people care more about how you act......

This board would be littered with posts about how he's an ass and everyone hates him.

[ptlyon]

Bonds Is Still A Giant

Ya - a giant POS

[Deberg_1990]

I think the hate people have for him is very natural.

He is a liar, cheater, drug abuser that has tarnished the game.

So far Bluto has stolen records and made millions, while never getting caught.




If you take out a couple of lines, you could be talking about Mark McGwire as well.......

[Eleazar]

If you go look at his stats after he returned from the DL he was still a very good player.....he's still extremely valuable just for the 400+ OPB he'll bring.

Eventually people are going to stop walking him.

[StcChief]

Good chance for all fans to BOO BARRY again 2007.

[BIG_DADDY]

Personally I am glad he stayed a Giant. Might as well see the record broken in a Giants uniform because the team ain't going anywhere anytime soon.

[Frazod]

If Cobb played today all anyone would talk about is what a dick the guy is.......seeing as these days if you are a great player people care more about how you act......

This board would be littered with posts about how he's an ass and everyone hates him.

You are quite correct; he was a monster. He was reviled by his own teammates, opposing players and all fans outside of Detroit. But I doubt if Cobb could overcome his madness and hatred of pretty much everything to play in today's PC world.

None of this, however, changes the FACT that he was the best player to ever step on a field.

[L.A. Chieffan]

Please. Bonds is nowhere near the greatest player ever with or without roids. (how many world series titles does Bonds have?) Neither is Cobb.
If you look at all the stats no one can compare to Babe Ruth, trust me. As a crazy old baseball stat head I've realized if you compare eras and pitching stats, Ruth is the MAN

[kcxiv]

Please. Bonds is nowhere near the greatest player ever with or without roids. (how many world series titles does Bonds have?) Neither is Cobb.
If you look at all the stats no one can compare to Babe Ruth, trust me. As a crazy old baseball stat head I've realized if you compare eras and pitching stats, Ruth is the MAN
I cant really agree with your logic there. It takes a team to win a series. 1 person cannot do it on his own.

[Eleazar]

You are quite correct; he was a monster. He was reviled by his own teammates, opposing players and all fans outside of Detroit. But I doubt if Cobb could overcome his madness and hatred of pretty much everything to play in today's PC world.

None of this, however, changes the FACT that he was the best player to ever step on a field.

He hit over .300 for 24 consecutive seasons. Even in the era of weak pitching we have today no one will ever do that again.

It's not like he had some inflated OBP built from intentional walks, people pitching around him, lineup protection, or places where the foul pole is 300 feet away. He worked in an era when baseball was played in cavernous places and where a high home run total was 10. The place where the Braves used to play in Boston, the foul poles were even like 400 feet away. Pitchers could go after hitters like they can't do today.

[L.A. Chieffan]

I cant really agree with your logic there. It takes a team to win a series. 1 person cannot do it on his own.
Well I wasn't really saying Bonds isn't the greatest player ever just because he hasn't won a title, it was just a reminder. Also, I couldn't pass up the chance to diss bonds.

[BIG_DADDY]

Please. Bonds is nowhere near the greatest player ever with or without roids. (how many world series titles does Bonds have?) Neither is Cobb.
If you look at all the stats no one can compare to Babe Ruth, trust me. As a crazy old baseball stat head I've realized if you compare eras and pitching stats, Ruth is the MAN

Your opinion doesn't mean anything when it comes to Barry, after all you're a Dodgers fan. LMAO

[L.A. Chieffan]

Your opinion doesn't mean anything when it comes to Barry, after all you're a Dodgers fan. LMAO
Preciesly. That is why it means EVERYTHING. :)
I've had my voice go hoarse many nights from shouting "BARRY SUCKS" at the top of my lungs for 9 innings.

[kcxiv]

I am a Dodger fan, and i dont hate Bonds, but i can care less about him.



Cant wait to see Schmidt pitch in San Fran this comming up year.

[L.A. Chieffan]

LOVE the Schmidt signing. We really need another stick though. Have you heard the rumors Penny for Vernon Wells?

[kcxiv]

LOVE the Schmidt signing. We really need another stick though. Have you heard the rumors Penny for Vernon Wells?
Nope, i havent done much research on it,i need to get into the gear of the rumors and signings though. Last i heard they were trying to Manny, but i dont think that will happen. Dodgers never go for a legit power hitter. I know they just signed Saito to a 1 year deal, wonder if they keep Gagne? i know he's injury prone, but i reallly like the guys attitude. Crazy ****ing Canadian.

[L.A. Chieffan]

Yeah I've always liked Gagne, even when he was a starter. Haven't heard much about him signing with anybody though, doesn't sound like there's much intrest out there for a guy whos pitched like 2 innings in the past 3 seasons.
The Manny rumor was kiling me for a few days as well. I heard Matt Kemp and a couple other big prospects for him. To be honest I'd rather have Wells I think, he'll cost less and will act a lot less crazy.

[kcxiv]

ITs LA, they need a little Crazyness. Because right now, the city of LA belongs to the Lakers. Dodgers need to get that shit back somehow. 1988 was a long time ago. Not that i mind the Lakers doing well, becuase well i watch just about very Laker game lol.

I just read a article where it said that Gagne was goign to sign by thursday with someone, and its friday. I think Boras is bluffing. He's just trying to get the best deal, i cant blame him, but Ned called his bluff. I also read where they only wanted to offer Gagne 1 mil in Gaurantee'd money and the rest would be incentives. I dont think he's that confident in his arm right now.

[Mojo Rising]

Well I wasn't really saying Bonds isn't the greatest player ever just because he hasn't won a title, it was just a reminder. Also, I couldn't pass up the chance to diss bonds.


How could he ever have won a title? He's an SF Giant. They have never won a Championship!!!!!

[BWillie]

So you really think that if Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth came and played in the league right now they would still be that good? Are you joking? What type of logic and reasoning do you use to come to that conclusion? Lets look at this one at a time.

1) The population of the US in the time of Cobb and Ruth in the 1920's and 1930's was about 115 million. The population of the US now? Over 300 million. What does this mean? There is almost three times the pool to chose from for good players. This means there is a much, much, much greater of a chance that there will be better players. There is about 200 million more people to chose from, thus making the chance of having greater players right now even more of a probability.

2) The MLB was founded in 1903. Many people did not even know about the opportunties that baseball had to offer while growing up. Which most likely equates to less people being given the chance to play the game. Today: Baseball players make a shitload of money, which is more of an incentive to be good and to pursue it as a career. There is opportunties to play baseball for just about anyone. Look at little league, just about every child plays little league at one point or another in their life.

3) MLB is now global. Japan, China, Costa Rica, Puerto Rica, and the list of countries goes on. This only adds more into the talent pool of possible players, making it even more of a chance for greater players to come out of this mix. Do you think any Japs played baseball in the 20's? Hardly.

4) Now for the unfair argument. Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth would be weaklings compared to any athlete of our era. Ty Cobb was 170 pounds. However, he was without modern weight training and nutritional knowledge which makes this an unfair argument. Because if Cobb and Ruth were around today, they would most definitely utilize this knowledge and technology. If you transplanted the Royals into the 30's, they would most likely win the world series. The same thing goes especially with the NFL. Teams now, would totally crush the teams of the 40's and 50's. Those teams had 200 pound O lineman. They would get eaten up alive.

Think about it.

[Frazod]

So you really think that if Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth came and played in the league right now they would still be that good? Are you joking? What type of logic and reasoning do you use to come to that conclusion? Lets look at this one at a time.

1) The population of the US in the time of Cobb and Ruth in the 1920's and 1930's was about 115 million. The population of the US now? Over 300 million. What does this mean? There is almost three times the pool to chose from for good players. This means there is a much, much, much greater of a chance that there will be better players. There is about 200 million more people to chose from, thus making the chance of having greater players right now even more of a probability.

2) The MLB was founded in 1903. Many people did not even know about the opportunties that baseball had to offer while growing up. Which most likely equates to less people being given the chance to play the game. Today: Baseball players make a shitload of money, which is more of an incentive to be good and to pursue it as a career. There is opportunties to play baseball for just about anyone. Look at little league, just about every child plays little league at one point or another in their life.

3) MLB is now global. Japan, China, Costa Rica, Puerto Rica, and the list of countries goes on. This only adds more into the talent pool of possible players, making it even more of a chance for greater players to come out of this mix. Do you think any Japs played baseball in the 20's? Hardly.

4) Now for the unfair argument. Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth would be weaklings compared to any athlete of our era. Ty Cobb was 170 pounds. However, he was without modern weight training and nutritional knowledge which makes this an unfair argument. Because if Cobb and Ruth were around today, they would most definitely utilize this knowledge and technology. If you transplanted the Royals into the 30's, they would most likely win the world series. The same thing goes especially with the NFL. Teams now, would totally crush the teams of the 40's and 50's. Those teams had 200 pound O lineman. They would get eaten up alive.

Think about it.

1. That's nice. So, why haven't we had 1,000 different players bat over 300 for their entire careers? Why, with so many more players AND steroids, has Ruth's homerun record been broken by only TWO people?

2. Opportunities in baseball back in the day? You are aware that the vast majority of professional atheletes didn't get paid jack shit. Most had to work other jobs during the offseason just to scrape by. Only the major stars became wealthy, and then only if they worked at. Old time ballplayers weren't the pampered multimillionaires of today by any stretch.

3. See 1 above. Big f#cking deal.

4. You defeat your own argument by admitting that Cobb and Ruth, if alive and playing today, would enjoy the benefits of modern medicine and training. This would, of course, make their numbers that much better. As for the notion of the time traveling Royals beating the crap out of everybody, let me remind you that in baseball, more than any other sport, a player's God-given ability is more important than size or conditioning. This explains why Babe Ruth could eat like a pig and drink like a fish and still hit dinger after dinger, but Michael Jordan, one of the most well conditioned atheletes on the planet, couldn't hit shit just a few years ago. Am I supposed to believe that Ruth was in better shape than Jordan? Not likely.

Mr. Spock called. You're giving logic a bad name. He wants you to stop.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I've never understood this argument. There is no way you could compare players across the different eras. It might be fun to do so, but there is no way you can reach an objective conclusion. There are too many variables. Cobb and Ruth have great great numbers, but how many people honestly played baseball back then? The talent pool is a fraction of what it is now, especially with the explosion of baseball talent in Latin America and Asia. This is just another iteration of the chicken and egg argument.

[Frazod]

I've never understood this argument. There is no way you could compare players across the different eras. It might be fun to do so, but there is no way you can reach an objective conclusion. There are too many variables. Cobb and Ruth have great great numbers, but how many people honestly played baseball back then? The talent pool is a fraction of what it is now, especially with the explosion of baseball talent in Latin America and Asia. This is just another iteration of the chicken and egg argument.

I wonder if people will disrespect players like Jeter and Pujols like this 100 years from now? :shake:

['Hamas' Jenkins]

1. That's nice. So, why haven't we had 1,000 different players bat over 300 for their entire careers? Why, with so many more players AND steroids, has Ruth's homerun record been broken by only TWO people?

2. Opportunities in baseball back in the day? You are aware that the vast majority of professional atheletes didn't get paid jack shit. Most had to work other jobs during the offseason just to scrape by. Only the major stars became wealthy, and then only if they worked at. Old time ballplayers weren't the pampered multimillionaires of today by any stretch.

3. See 1 above. Big f#cking deal.

4. You defeat your own argument by admitting that Cobb and Ruth, if alive and playing today, would enjoy the benefits of modern medicine and training. This would, of course, make their numbers that much better. As for the notion of the time traveling Royals beating the crap out of everybody, let me remind you that in baseball, more than any other sport, a player's God-given ability is more important than size or conditioning. This explains why Babe Ruth could eat like a pig and drink like a fish and still hit dinger after dinger, but Michael Jordan, one of the most well conditioned atheletes on the planet, couldn't hit shit just a few years ago. Am I supposed to believe that Ruth was in better shape than Jordan? Not likely.

Mr. Spock called. You're giving logic a bad name. He wants you to stop.

1. Because the art of pitching, along with modern scouting methods, has developed greatly. The speed that pitchers can throw today dwarfs what people threw at in the early 20th century. This has a double effect, as it also increases the difficulty of hitting off-speed pitches.

2. The mere fact that they had other jobs leads to two things: 1, less time to play baseball, and therefore 2) less skill at the game as a result of lack of practice. Joe Meatpacker isn't going to have nearly as much on his fastball if he's logging sides of beef up 10 flights of stairs or cutting ice in the winter months.

3. We haven't had anyone hit .400 in over 50 years either, but more people play baseball than ever, and studies have been done (Pujols at WashU, for example) that show reaction time is just as good in today's athletes as athletes of bygone eras. Therefore, if the hitters are just as good but put up worse numbers, why are the numbers lower? Either the pitching is better, the equipment has made it harder on hitters, scouting reports have made it tougher, defenders are faster and thus can track down more would-be hits, or some combination of the above. I'm going with the combination.

4. Michael Jordan had not played organized baseball in almost 20 years and after 18 months (I'm not talking about his initial struggles w/ the Barons) was an above average player in the Arizona league (where he was hitting close to .300). Every other professional baseball player most likely had been playing for close to 20 straight years...there is a huge difference there.

[Frazod]

1. Because the art of pitching, along with modern scouting methods, has developed greatly. The speed that pitchers can throw today dwarfs what people threw at in the early 20th century. This has a double effect, as it also increases the difficulty of hitting off-speed pitches.

2. The mere fact that they had other jobs leads to two things: 1, less time to play baseball, and therefore 2) less skill at the game as a result of lack of practice. Joe Meatpacker isn't going to have nearly as much on his fastball if he's logging sides of beef up 10 flights of stairs or cutting ice in the winter months.

3. We haven't had anyone hit .400 in over 50 years either, but more people play baseball than ever, and studies have been done (Pujols at WashU, for example) that show reaction time is just as good in today's athletes as athletes of bygone eras. Therefore, if the hitters are just as good but put up worse numbers, why are the numbers lower? Either the pitching is better, the equipment has made it harder on hitters, scouting reports have made it tougher, defenders are faster and thus can track down more would-be hits, or some combination of the above. I'm going with the combination.

4. Michael Jordan had not played organized baseball in almost 20 years and after 18 months (I'm not talking about his initial struggles w/ the Barons) was an above average player in the Arizona league (where he was hitting close to .300). Every other professional baseball player most likely had been playing for close to 20 straight years...there is a huge difference there.
This is the last point for point I'm doing tonight.

1. If the pitching was so shitty back in the day, why didn't EVERYBODY put up numbers like Cobb and Ruth?

2. I'm not really up with your correlation here, although I will admit that the fact that early pitchers logged dramatically more innings than modern pitchers. I also believe early players were far, far tougher, mainly because they had to be. No modern training or medicine, no fat bank accounts to fall back on when their playing days were over. Griffey will sit for two weeks over a hangnail - Cobb played the day after he had his appendix removed.

3. Again, see 1 above. If everybody's improving, we should still have the more standouts today that we did then. We simply don't.

4. I just used Jordan as an example to dispute Willie, who seems to think that conditioning and athelecism is enough. If you can find a time machine and line up the 1927 Yankees against the 2005 Royals, sorry, but my money's on New York.

This is all a moot point anyway, since none of this shit can ever be proven one way or another. You just don't know if Cobb could hit Carpenter because he'll never get the chance to do so.

But I personally believe he could. And none of you will convince me otherwise.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

This is the last point for point I'm doing tonight.

1. If the pitching was so shitty back in the day, why didn't EVERYBODY put up numbers like Cobb and Ruth?

2. I'm not really up with your correlation here, although I will admit that the fact that early pitchers logged dramatically more innings than modern pitchers. I also believe early players were far, far tougher, mainly because they had to be. No modern training or medicine, no fat bank accounts to fall back on when their playing days were over. Griffey will sit for two weeks over a hangnail - Cobb played the day after he had his appendix removed.

3. Again, see 1 above. If everybody's improving, we should still have the more standouts today that we did then. We simply don't.

4. I just used Jordan as an example to dispute Willie, who seems to think that conditioning and athelecism is enough. If you can find a time machine and line up the 1927 Yankees against the 2005 Royals, sorry, but my money's on New York.

This is all a moot point anyway, since none of this shit can ever be proven one way or another. You just don't know if Cobb could hit Carpenter because he'll never get the chance to do so.

But I personally believe he could. And none of you will convince me otherwise.


The point with 3 is that there isn't that much variance within human beings and modern training proves that. We don't have standouts because everyone is really f*cking good. Look at world-class sprinters. The difference between first and last place in the 100m finals is hundreths of a second as measured over a distance of 100 meters. That is very, very close. The mere fact that there was such a gap between those players leads me to believe (but not know) that most of those players weren't getting the most of their ability, or that those with the most ability weren't necessarily playing baseball.

[Mojo Rising]

This is the last point for point I'm doing tonight.

1. If the pitching was so shitty back in the day, why didn't EVERYBODY put up numbers like Cobb and Ruth?

2. I'm not really up with your correlation here, although I will admit that the fact that early pitchers logged dramatically more innings than modern pitchers. I also believe early players were far, far tougher, mainly because they had to be. No modern training or medicine, no fat bank accounts to fall back on when their playing days were over. Griffey will sit for two weeks over a hangnail - Cobb played the day after he had his appendix removed.

3. Again, see 1 above. If everybody's improving, we should still have the more standouts today that we did then. We simply don't.

4. I just used Jordan as an example to dispute Willie, who seems to think that conditioning and athelecism is enough. If you can find a time machine and line up the 1927 Yankees against the 2005 Royals, sorry, but my money's on New York.

This is all a moot point anyway, since none of this shit can ever be proven one way or another. You just don't know if Cobb could hit Carpenter because he'll never get the chance to do so.

But I personally believe he could. And none of you will convince me otherwise.

If you are saying that Cobb and Ruth, with todays (non-Bonds legal) training could be All-Stars vs. todays MLB'rs then I would probably agree with you. They were All-Stars vs. the best of what was available to everyone.

If you are saying that Ruth and Cobb (in their early century condition) could hit Gagne in 2004 you are wrong.

You say that we don't have as many standouts and you're wrong. Because athletes are so much more specialized today we can afford to have a 9th inning closer have 50+ saves in a season (didn't happen back then), stolen bases, strikeouts.

The reason the hitters are breaking .400 is that the pitchers aren't advancing athletically also.

[Crush]

**** YOU BONDS!!!!! YOU NO GOOD POS!!!!! I HOPE YOU ACHIEVE THE SMALLEST BALLS IN THE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!