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Frankie
01-07-2007, 02:37 PM
As great as LJ is, it is obvious that he does not see the holes (if any) as well as Priest did. He seems to hit the line were he expects the hole to develope, never changing directions if the original hole is not there. Why don't the Chiefs line him up a step or two farther back and hand the ball to him farther from the LOS to help him see that there might be a way around the pile? It looks like many times the pile is dense in the middle and he still hits it for no gain. What do y'all think?

Hammock Parties
01-07-2007, 02:38 PM
I think we need some ****ing blockers. LJ averaged over a full yard better than Priest in 2005.

FAX
01-07-2007, 02:38 PM
I think he's tired as hell. No legs.

FAX

KcMizzou
01-07-2007, 02:40 PM
I think he's tired as hell. No legs.

FAXYep. I'm afraid Mecca was right about his number of carries this season.

stevieray
01-07-2007, 02:41 PM
See the San Diego game.

Honestly, I don't know how bad he wanted it yesterday...if he thought the gameplan was crap again, it wouldn't surprise me that he half-assed it, considering what we've seen and heard from him in the past. Alot of today's players do think they are bigger than the team and game.

melbar
01-07-2007, 02:41 PM
Actually he useually follows his blocks and waits for the lanes to develop (i believe Priest taught him because he didnt year 1) but Indys game plan was to create piles in the middle of the line and we didnt move around them. Screnes would have been great a little earlier in the game.

the Talking Can
01-07-2007, 02:41 PM
I think he's tired as hell. No legs.

FAX


I agree


plus he's moody....sometimes he runs...sometimes he runs like his ass is on fire....the difference is noticeable

Son of Logical
01-07-2007, 02:42 PM
You can't put him back further for risk of him losing yards, but you are right. He doesn't look for daylight. He just runs to where the hole is supposed to be. He is not the same guy was, Priest's game was all about being slippery. He would squeeze through cracks, and turn -1 yard, into positive 7. LJ is more the homerun hitter. If there is a whole he will get you 10 or 80. But no hole=No gain. Honestly I never want to see him run a sweep again. It seems like he always just gets strung out, but that could be the O-line.

TinyEvel
01-07-2007, 02:43 PM
I agree


plus he's moody....sometimes he runs...sometimes he runs like his ass is on fire....the difference is noticeable

I agree with this.

Some games, he ws like a zombie, others he pwned.

Hammock Parties
01-07-2007, 02:43 PM
Are people honestly calling LJ into question after the year he had?

I think he's incredible given the way our oline played this year. I've seen him make something out of nothing all year.

jspchief
01-07-2007, 02:44 PM
I think his field vision is average at best. He just has too many plays for 0 yards to convince me otherwise.

The guy's strengths are once he gets some steam under him. Give him two yards of room andd he'll make it 5 or 50. But don't expect him to make two out of nothing.

stevieray
01-07-2007, 02:46 PM
Yep. I'm afraid Mecca was right about his number of carriers this season.

I don't buy that. How many of those carries end up for short yardage, or running into a pile?

Remember how LJ would punsih tacklers and his body language screamed intimidation...that wasn't there yesterday..he was acknowledging tacklers for their efforts.

There just wasn't a lot of fire on the sideline yesterday...players weren't pumping each other up...

I was front row on the 40, right behind the Chiefs bench.

Simplex3
01-07-2007, 02:46 PM
He's cooked. Nothing left. As for Goatcheeze's theory of no holes, Denver has proved that your RB doesn't need to be anything special when the holes are huge.

Besides, I don't remember Barry Sanders having huge holes. He got a few yards every year.

the Talking Can
01-07-2007, 02:47 PM
Are people honestly calling LJ into question after the year he had?

I think he's incredible given the way our oline played this year. I've seen him make something out of nothing all year.

nobody is saying he isn't great....pay attention for once in your life

edit

ok, somebody is saying that...lol

jspchief
01-07-2007, 02:48 PM
Are people honestly calling LJ into question after the year he had?

I think he's incredible given the way our oline played this year. I've seen him make something out of nothing all year.Yea. I am.

Carrying the ball a million times certainly demonstrates his toughness. But that has nothing to do with field vision.

He has his strengths, but I'm doubting he's the next great RB like I once thought. He's looking more like the next Curtis Martin than the next Jim Brown.

Hammock Parties
01-07-2007, 02:49 PM
As for Goatcheeze's theory of no holes, Denver has proved that your RB doesn't need to be anything special when the holes are huge.
.

Denver fans have been lamenting the fact that they don't have an elite back for years now. It's hurt their offense.

HemiEd
01-07-2007, 02:51 PM
See the San Diego game.

Honestly, I don't know how bad he wanted it yesterday...if he thought the gameplan was crap again, it wouldn't surprise me that he half-assed it, considering what we've seen and heard from him in the past. Alot of today's players do think they are bigger than the team and game.

This playoff game interrupted his move to NY. I want Priest back.

siberian khatru
01-07-2007, 02:52 PM
I recall mid-season threads/posts about how it appeared that LJ was getting even better because his vision and patience had improved.

I'm thinking it's more about blocking and fatigue.

blsilks
01-07-2007, 02:53 PM
As great as LJ is, it is obvious that he does not see the holes (if any) as well as Priest did. He seems to hit the line were he expects the hole to develope, never changing directions if the original hole is not there. Why don't the Chiefs line him up a step or two farther back and hand the ball to him farther from the LOS to help him see that there might be a way around the pile? It looks like many times the pile is dense in the middle and he still hits it for no gain. What do y'all think?

Well we have no Roaf so the Chiefs can't run left like they used to so its not fair to compair the larry johnson of this year to the priest holmes of previous years. Larry proved last year that with Willie he can carry the ball half as much and get the same amount of yards. This year a major problem is been the BLACK HOLE on the offensive line also known has Jordan Black. This guy got pawned over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Also the guys up front might be starting to show their age. It might be time to overhall this offense.

FAX
01-07-2007, 02:54 PM
I'm unsure if carrying the ball 5000 times in a season proves your skill as a runner, Mr. GoChiefs. More indicative of the fact that you're a tough little bastage.

But when you're worn, you play in spurts. You have to. Give more effort at certain times and less effort at other times. That's what it looked like to me, at least. "Oh great, here's another run up the middle call coming in from the sidelines. Whatever."

FAX

Frankie
01-07-2007, 02:55 PM
See the San Diego game.

Honestly, I don't know how bad he wanted it yesterday...if he thought the gameplan was crap again, it wouldn't surprise me that he half-assed it, considering what we've seen and heard from him in the past. Alot of today's players do think they are bigger than the team and game.
For better or worse THERE IS a bit of "Leon" in LJ.

Easy 6
01-07-2007, 02:55 PM
He may have gotten a 'lil disgruntled with the plan, but the fact is, the plan SUCKED & he very rarely had anywhere to go.

NO WAY!!!

NO WAY!!!

NO WAY I BLAME THIS ON LARRY.

We wouldnt even have BEEN there were it not for LJ.

Theres too many fingers pointing in all the wrong directions today.

Easy 6
01-07-2007, 02:56 PM
it's more about blocking and fatigue.

Frankie
01-07-2007, 02:57 PM
Actually he useually follows his blocks and waits for the lanes to develop (i believe Priest taught him because he didnt year 1) but Indys game plan was to create piles in the middle of the line and we didnt move around them. Screnes would have been great a little earlier in the game.
That's what I was thinking. But LJ should also recognize that if there's a pile in the middle, then the edges must be soft. Hence if the handoff is farther back he has a better view and time to make that decision.

Frankie
01-07-2007, 02:59 PM
You can't put him back further for risk of him losing yards, but you are right. He doesn't look for daylight. He just runs to where the hole is supposed to be. He is not the same guy was, Priest's game was all about being slippery. He would squeeze through cracks, and turn -1 yard, into positive 7. LJ is more the homerun hitter. If there is a whole he will get you 10 or 80. But no hole=No gain. Honestly I never want to see him run a sweep again. It seems like he always just gets strung out, but that could be the O-line.
I so loved those Priest sweeps!

FAX
01-07-2007, 03:01 PM
I recall mid-season threads/posts about how it appeared that LJ was getting even better because his vision and patience had improved.

I'm thinking it's more about blocking and fatigue.

That about covers it.

Clearly, if LJ can't run the ball 8,421 times a year with passionate energy and our 5 oline guys can't block 9 or 10 defensive guys, he needs to be sent to the Giants last time I checked.

FAX

Frankie
01-07-2007, 03:02 PM
This playoff game interrupted his move to NY. I want Priest back.
LOL. I want Priest back too. No hating on LJ though.

Frankie
01-07-2007, 03:09 PM
He may have gotten a 'lil disgruntled with the plan, but the fact is, the plan SUCKED & he very rarely had anywhere to go.

NO WAY!!!

NO WAY!!!

NO WAY I BLAME THIS ON LARRY.

We wouldnt even have BEEN there were it not for LJ.

Theres too many fingers pointing in all the wrong directions today.
The spirit of this thread is not pointing fingers at LJ. I just wanted to know if he does see the softer edges when the middle is a pile of humanity. If he does and does not take advantage of them, then here's something he needs to improve.

jspchief
01-07-2007, 03:11 PM
The spirit of this thread is not pointing fingers at LJ. I just wanted to know if he does see the softer edges when the middle is a pile of humanity. If he does and does not take advantage of them, then here's something he needs to improve.He doesn't run outside well. When his shoulders aren't parallel to the line of scrimmage, he is a very average back.

There's a reason we only call downhill running plays. Other than his one pause/cutback move, he's one dimensional in how he runs.

Hammock Parties
01-07-2007, 03:13 PM
He doesn't run outside well. When his shoulders aren't parallel to the line of scrimmage, he is a very average back.

There's a reason we only call downhill running plays. Other than his one pause/cutback move, he's one dimensional in how he runs.

This is getting retarded. He's the second-best RB in the league.

Brock
01-07-2007, 03:15 PM
He doesn't run outside well. When his shoulders aren't parallel to the line of scrimmage, he is a very average back.

There's a reason we only call downhill running plays. Other than his one pause/cutback move, he's one dimensional in how he runs.

When the Chiefs still had Roaf, they used Johnson in much the same way they used Priest Holmes. He caught 33 passes in 9 games last year, and only 41 in 16 games this year. This team can't run on the perimeter anymore, but it isn't because Johnson can't do it. He just can't do it without proper blocking.

Frankie
01-07-2007, 03:15 PM
He has his strengths, but I'm doubting he's the next great RB like I once thought. He's looking more like the next Curtis Martin than the next Jim Brown.I agree. So far anyway. The difference between good-great RBs and the great-legendary ones is that the latter make quick decisions to take advantage of their 'B' opportubity when 'A' is closed.

Hammock Parties
01-07-2007, 03:17 PM
When the Chiefs still had Roaf, they used Johnson in much the same way they used Priest Holmes. He caught 33 passes in 9 games last year, and only 41 in 16 games this year. This team can't run on the perimeter anymore, but it isn't because Johnson can't do it. He just can't do it without proper blocking.

I'm glad someone else is saying it. Our line used to kill people on the stretch play. It's turned into nothing at present.

FAX
01-07-2007, 03:18 PM
He doesn't run outside well. When his shoulders aren't parallel to the line of scrimmage, he is a very average back.

There's a reason we only call downhill running plays. Other than his one pause/cutback move, he's one dimensional in how he runs.

I think there's a lot of truth to that, Mr. jspchief. Plus, our O-line does not appear to have the speed and mobility they exhibited in years past.

DV's scheme included stretching the field sideline to sideline with the run game. A brilliant plan if you have linemen who can get out and run on the edges. It's one of the things that made our red-zone offense so effective. Perhaps age and weak-ass tackles have inhibited this approach. I'm not sure we executed more than a handful of decent stretch plays or screens this year.

FAX

jspchief
01-07-2007, 03:20 PM
This is getting retarded. He's the second-best RB in the league.No he's not. He's the second most productive RB in the league this year.

And to be honest, your support of him does little to add any real legitimacy to the discussion. You've pretty much proven that you'll attach yourself to the scrotum of whatever Chiefs player is your flavor of the week. Damon Huard, Parker, Tynes...the list goes on.

Mr. Laz
01-07-2007, 03:20 PM
it's a little of all of it

offensive line doesn't dominate ... and alot of bigger back struggle if people get to them before the line of scrimmage.

Tired legs ... you can bet LJ is dragging a bit.


LJ is immature ... mentally he's not very strong

not really a polished running back ... his vision isn't great. i think following TRich to the hole helped him. As Wilson gets better reading and finding the hole, it will help LJ.

Hammock Parties
01-07-2007, 03:21 PM
No he's not. He's the second most productive RB in the league this year.


Eh, whatever. I doubt even LT could have gained 1,800 yards behind this line.

Name a better RB besides LT.

I can't believe the disrespect LJ is getting around here today. It's absolutely disgusting.

jspchief
01-07-2007, 03:23 PM
When the Chiefs still had Roaf, they used Johnson in much the same way they used Priest Holmes. He caught 33 passes in 9 games last year, and only 41 in 16 games this year. This team can't run on the perimeter anymore, but it isn't because Johnson can't do it. He just can't do it without proper blocking.First off my response was to Frankie's question about him bouncing to the outside when the middle is cluttered, so stretch plays don't really factor in to what I was saying.

That being said, he's never been as effective as Priest running to the edges, and without Roaf and T-Rich making a path for him he's just not very good on the edges.

Frankie
01-07-2007, 03:23 PM
When the Chiefs still had Roaf, they used Johnson in much the same way they used Priest Holmes. He caught 33 passes in 9 games last year, and only 41 in 16 games this year. This team can't run on the perimeter anymore, but it isn't because Johnson can't do it. He just can't do it without proper blocking.
Yep.

Frankie
01-07-2007, 03:26 PM
That being said, he's never been as effective as Priest running to the edges, and without Roaf and T-Rich making a path for him he's just not very good on the edges.That's why in my book I really prefer a great Priest over a great LJ.

jspchief
01-07-2007, 03:27 PM
Eh, whatever. I doubt even LT could have gained 1,800 yards behind this line.

Name a better RB besides LT.

I can't believe the disrespect LJ is getting around here today. It's absolutely disgusting.I'll amend my statement to say that IMO LJ has yet to prove he's the second best RB in the league. This season reminded me a lot of Curtis Martin's entire career... stats due to quantity moreso than quality.

As for what's disgusting, I'd say your total inability to be objective about Chiefs players is pretty disgusting. You completely refuse to acknowledge that LJ has any weakness. You're just a homer.

ChiefsLV
01-07-2007, 03:29 PM
He doesn't run outside well. When his shoulders aren't parallel to the line of scrimmage, he is a very average back.

There's a reason we only call downhill running plays. Other than his one pause/cutback move, he's one dimensional in how he runs.


I call BS. Go and look at the tape from last season. We were tearing teams up with that same sweep we were running with Priest in. That was our bread and butter.

Hammock Parties
01-07-2007, 03:29 PM
As for what's disgusting, I'd say your total inability to be objective about Chiefs players is pretty disgusting. You completely refuse to acknowledge that LJ has any weakness. .

I'll do it right now. He's an average blocker at best. He's an average receiver at best.

I also think we've yet to see the best from LJ. This was his first full season as a starter.

2,000 YARDS IN '07!

As for the rest of the players, I'm objective as hell. I've been calling out the offensive line all year long. I jumped off Tynes' bandwagon a couple weeks ago.

Deberg_1990
01-07-2007, 03:44 PM
As great as LJ is, it is obvious that he does not see the holes (if any) as well as Priest did.

Dude just had back to back 1700+ yards seasons.....


The best Priest ever did was 1615. LJ is great, but hes not Superman. Lets give the Indy D some credit for stepping up yesterday and the Chiefs O-line some lack of credit for stepping down.


LJ will be fine.

jspchief
01-07-2007, 03:53 PM
I call BS. Go and look at the tape from last season. We were tearing teams up with that same sweep we were running with Priest in. That was our bread and butter.That just reinforces my point that he's an average runner on the outside.

Without the first ballot LT and Pro Bowl FB, he's suddenly no longer able to run to the edges.

Easy 6
01-07-2007, 03:59 PM
Dude just had back to back 1700+ yards seasons.....


The best Priest ever did was 1615. LJ is great, but hes not Superman. Lets give the Indy D some credit for stepping up yesterday and the Chiefs O-line some lack of credit for stepping down.


LJ will be fine.

That should wrap it up nicely.

ChiefsLV
01-07-2007, 04:25 PM
That just reinforces my point that he's an average runner on the outside.

Without the first ballot LT and Pro Bowl FB, he's suddenly no longer able to run to the edges.

I blame coaching and offensive line for that before I blame LJ. LJ has shown he could make those kind of runs in the past. And it's not like he just did it once our twice, we were running those sweeps when the defense knew they were coming, and they were still unable to stop it.

jspchief
01-07-2007, 04:56 PM
I blame coaching and offensive line for that before I blame LJ. LJ has shown he could make those kind of runs in the past. And it's not like he just did it once our twice, we were running those sweeps when the defense knew they were coming, and they were still unable to stop it.Yea. Because he had people out there blocking for him. That's exactly my point. It's not LJ it's the blocking.

I'm not saying he has to do it alone, but a RB that is good at running on the edges can do it without a probowl LT and FB on occasion.

LJ has his strengths, running to the outside is not one of them. He's average at it, and frankly he's been below average this year.

ChiefsLV
01-07-2007, 06:07 PM
Yea. Because he had people out there blocking for him. That's exactly my point. It's not LJ it's the blocking.

I'm not saying he has to do it alone, but a RB that is good at running on the edges can do it without a probowl LT and FB on occasion.

LJ has his strengths, running to the outside is not one of them. He's average at it, and frankly he's been below average this year.

I don't think it's fair to judge LJ's outside running ability when we've had a carousel of tackles in this year, none of which have shown they should remain starters. From what he has shown in the past with the bread and butter sweep play of the Vermeil era, I think LJ is a good outside runner, even though it was with Roaf and Richardson. When Black and Welbourne are being pushed into the backfield, you aren't going to be able to run the sweeps and offtackles successfully. Not fair to judge when the blocking is subpar.

jspchief
01-07-2007, 06:16 PM
I don't think it's fair to judge LJ's outside running ability when we've had a carousel of tackles in this year, none of which have shown they should remain starters. From what he has shown in the past with the bread and butter sweep play of the Vermeil era, I think LJ is a good outside runner, even though it was with Roaf and Richardson. When Black and Welbourne are being pushed into the backfield, you aren't going to be able to run the sweeps and offtackles successfully. Not fair to judge when the blocking is subpar.Well maybe you and I are talking about different things.

But when I say "player X does this well" or "player Y does this poorly" I'm referring to what his individual strengths are regardless of the players around him. Barry Sanders' strength was creating yards that didn't exist. Ladanian's Tomlinson's strength is his balance and vision. Larry Johnson's strength is his speed and power once he gets going.

If the only time LJ runs well to the outside is when he has good blocking, IMO you can't say he runs well on the outside. You might say he follows blockers well or has good patience.

IMO this year made it abundantly clear that running east/west is a weakness for him. He's tentative, slow, and goes down easy. That's the reason the play calls all ran up the gut even when everyone on the planet knew they were going up the gut. It's the same reason we don't use Green in the bootleg... it's not his strength.

bc48
01-07-2007, 09:32 PM
Say what you will but Larry is only the 3rd RB in NFL history to rush for 1700 yards or more 2 years in a row (Dickerson and Terrel Davis are the others ) and I might add it is his 1st 2 years of hauling the rock . Jim Brown never did it , Payton never did it , Sanders never did it etc , etc .... Average at best ??????????