What's wrong with Kansas basketball?!

[sedated]

WTF?!

[Mr. Plow]

How about "You can't win them all." Every time we lose, you have someone questioning something. Maybe, just maybe, Texas Tech just played better than KU today. Ya think?

[teedubya]

i think they are just fine. You ****ing Chicken Littles need to eat a dick.

[BWillie]

That was a magnificent coaching job by Knight today. His team always plays fundamental basketball, and rarely makes mistakes. It was a gem of a game, but with that said where were the foulds and we have been playing like shit the last 3-4 games. I don't know what the deal is so I have to blame lack of focus. If you can beat #1 team Florida, blow out the #9 team in the nation, you certainly shouldn't lose that many games to unranked opponents.

[WilliamTheIrish]

It's those damn 10 game winning streaks.

[Saulbadguy]

GRCOAT

[PinkFloyd]

From the game I watched, it seemed KU just didn't really care til about the last 3 minutes...

It was like, "Oh hell, we're losing... We need to get our butt in gear"!!!

[Silock]

Yes, it is correct that you aren't going to win them all, but let's look at the facts, here.

KU has played only a handful of solid games this season. Teams like ORU, DePaul, TT, ISU, MU . . . these are no longer anomalies.

Talent level around the country is getting better and better, and KU can't just rely on pure talent to win their games for them, which is what they've been doing under Self. I don't understand what Self is trying to do with this team. There's no full-court press unless the game is on the line... but it works, and then he backs off and lets the other team back in the game. Why? Why can't he teach a proper zone perimeter defense rotation? Our guys never cover the open shot. When he goes to man-to-man, anyone that drives the basket is double teamed and leaves a shooter wide open. Why? Why can't he coach fundamentals like not leaving your feet unless the other guy does? I can't count the number of times in a game I see a KU defender go flying by after a small headfake, leaving the shooter wide open to drain a big shot. Happens numerous times every game. That's coaching.

There IS a problem. I'm not saying it can't be corrected, but all is definitely not well. I'm not saying the sky is falling, but these games are symptomatic of very, very deep problems that absolutely need to be addressed.

[sedated]

they've looked like absolute dogshit since the OkSt game. against bad opponents.

I think Collins should be starting over Robinson, but he's only had 2 good games, he could turn out just as inconsistent as the rest of 'em.

[chiefsfan987]

i think they are just fine. You ****ing Chicken Littles need to eat a dick.

I don't think its being chicken little when you factor in this team could easily be 1-3 in the Big XII. KU isn't playing well right now. We're not saying the sky is falling, just that there is something wrong with this team that really needs fixing.

[Mr. Plow]

How often is there a blowout in the KU/MU series? Rarely. It's a rivalry. It's the Big 12. Teams play close. Don't be surprised when, at least one of the KSU/KU games is close.

You can win every freakin' game by 40 points. I have felt pretty good about the team recently. They played two tough teams - one at their place which makes them tough and the other is Missouri - and won by playing a tight game.

I guess when you are constantly looking for something to be wrong, you can make up anything.

[Mr. Plow]

Yes, it is correct that you aren't going to win them all, but let's look at the facts, here.

KU has played only a handful of solid games this season. Teams like ORU, DePaul, TT, ISU, MU . . . these are no longer anomalies.

Talent level around the country is getting better and better, and KU can't just rely on pure talent to win their games for them, which is what they've been doing under Self. I don't understand what Self is trying to do with this team. There's no full-court press unless the game is on the line... but it works, and then he backs off and lets the other team back in the game. Why? Why can't he teach a proper zone perimeter defense rotation? Our guys never cover the open shot. When he goes to man-to-man, anyone that drives the basket is double teamed and leaves a shooter wide open. Why? Why can't he coach fundamentals like not leaving your feet unless the other guy does? I can't count the number of times in a game I see a KU defender go flying by after a small headfake, leaving the shooter wide open to drain a big shot. Happens numerous times every game. That's coaching.

There IS a problem. I'm not saying it can't be corrected, but all is definitely not well. I'm not saying the sky is falling, but these games are symptomatic of very, very deep problems that absolutely need to be addressed.

We have one of the best defensive teams in the country. I think I would leave the defense out the discussion.

As far as the offense goes, some days you are hitting your shots, some days you're not.

[Skip Towne]

KU has enough horses to run nearly everbody out of the gym. If they would just do it. I have no idea what Self is trying to do.

[Silock]

We have one of the best defensive teams in the country. I think I would leave the defense out the discussion.

No matter how good you are, there are always areas that need improvement.

[Deberg_1990]

WTF?!

Roy Williams > Bill Self

[Reerun_KC]

Problem is, every fan thinks KU should win each game by 40 every time out...

I dont think people are realizing that parity in College basketball is alittle closer than people think..

Hell we have had many of losses that the fans feel like we shouldnt of lost, along with many of wins we shouldnt of won...

There isnt anything wrong with KU. Yeah they have some problems, but what team doesnt? What team wins every game by 40+?

This is Big XII conference play. Whomever thought we were going to go 16-0 in conference play is ****ing stupid! We will probably drop another one or two along the way? So what? Win the Big XII tourney and make a run in March.. That is all that matters and in 3 weeks, this game means nothing.

Stop crying and enjoy the basketball games. It could be worse? Our coach could be wearing purple pull over sweaters....

[Silock]

No, the problem is that there are simple changes that could be made and this team wouldn't have to lose "so many" games and the other games wouldn't have to be as close.

It's just a product of frustration that everyone can see.

[the Talking Can]

they can't shoot

it's that simple

we could easily lose in the 1st round again

[the Talking Can]

i think they are just fine. You ****ing Chicken Littles need to eat a dick.

you said the same thing last year

and the year before that, I bet

[Skip Towne]

Problem is, every fan thinks KU should win each game by 40 every time out...

I dont think people are realizing that parity in College basketball is alittle closer than people think..

Hell we have had many of losses that the fans feel like we shouldnt of lost, along with many of wins we shouldnt of won...

There isnt anything wrong with KU. Yeah they have some problems, but what team doesnt? What team wins every game by 40+?

This is Big XII conference play. Whomever thought we were going to go 16-0 in conference play is ****ing stupid! We will probably drop another one or two along the way? So what? Win the Big XII tourney and make a run in March.. That is all that matters and in 3 weeks, this game means nothing.

Stop crying and enjoy the basketball games. It could be worse? Our coach could be wearing purple pull over sweaters....
I don't expect them to win every game by 40 points. I DO expect them to beat the ORU's and Bradley's of the world. You can stick your head back in the sand now.

[Tactical Funky]

After 10 straight wins, I'm not terribly upset at this road loss to a decent team with a great coach; personally, I hope this loss gets the attention of the team and they realize that every conference game needs their full effort.

Today was just...sloppy.

Ugh.

[doomy3]

THis same thread could be started about every one of the top teams in the country this year, even Roy's boys, who have a TON of talent. There is a lot of parity in CBB, and if you don't hit shots like KU didn't today, you will lose because the other team will always bring their A game against the KU's, NC's, Florida's, etc al

[Skip Towne]

THis same thread could be started about every one of the top teams in the country this year, even Roy's boys, who have a TON of talent. There is a lot of parity in CBB, and if you don't hit shots like KU didn't today, you will lose because the other team will always bring their A game against the KU's, NC's, Florida's, etc al
Paging William. William, please report to the KU thread.

[Reerun_KC]

I don't expect them to win every game by 40 points. I DO expect them to beat the ORU's and Bradley's of the world. You can stick your head back in the sand now.


K I will :Scanlon:

[Reerun_KC]

Paging William. William, please report to the KU thread.


Oh Boy!


Now we will have 5 pages of Bill telling us that "everyone gets up for KU"

[CoMoChief]

KU has enough horses to run nearly everbody out of the gym. If they would just do it. I have no idea what Self is trying to do.


Which is why EVERYONE will always love Roy alot more than Self. That is until Self wins a national title.

[ArrowheadHawk]

i just want to stop losing to unranked opponents i would feel better about this team if two of our three losses were to florida and okie state

[teedubya]

you said the same thing last year

and the year before that, I bet

Nah, I'm numb to it all. I have been a Jayhawk, Chiefs, Royals fan for far too long to let this shit negatively affect me anymore.

That being said, we wont lose in the 1st round this year. It will be round #2.

[ArrowheadHawk]

... It will be round #2.
quit being so optimistic

[Tactical Funky]

I love the enthusiasm.

[the Talking Can]

Nah, I'm numb to it all. I have been a Jayhawk, Chiefs, Royals fan for far too long to let this shit negatively affect me anymore.

That being said, we wont lose in the 1st round this year. It will be round #2.

that's the spirit...but I've seen nothing from this team that shows we're safe in the first round....we can't shoot....we're vulnerable

[Braincase]

It's pretty damned arrogant to bitch about KU losing their third game on a board whose population includes a bunch of KSU and Mizzou fans. Get off your damned high horse and appreciate what you've got.

And yes, I do have season tix. Now STFD and STFU. We lost to freakin' Bobby Knight. When get loss number 10, I'll bitch, but we're a damned sight short of that happnin'.

And yes, I have been drinking.

[Thig Lyfe]

i think they are just fine. You ****ing Chicken Littles need to eat a dick.

Yeah. They need to save it until KU gets eliminated in the first round of the Tournament by a community college.

[CoMoChief]

There's no reason why KU shouldnt run other teams out of the gym.

I love Sherron Collins. Needs to replace Robinson. He runs and runs and runs. KU needs more of that.

Yes Im talking about Roy ball. This team is physically built for that. No reason why we should slow it down.

[bobbything]

There is a problem with KU. Anyone who doesn't see it is in complete denial. This team (supposedly) has all this amazing talent. Two preseason conference players of the year. And neither has performed up to the hype. Since they supposedly have all these amazing players, they are not playing up to par. 2 and 4 point wins over 2 of the worst teams in the league is concerning. Sure, they've been winning, but they're playing pretty horrible en route.

Wright is awful. 36 assists and 47 turnovers up until the tonights game. Averaging under 10 points per game over the last couple of weeks. He simply cannot shoot. He's an awful shooter. Athletic ability will only take him so far.

Rush is hit or miss. He had a few shots roll in and out tonight. Unlucky. However, he's not nearly the player he was predicted to be.

Basically, this is a horrible half-court offensive team. When they're good, they're creating turnovers. Problem is, teams have realized that so long as they focus their efforts on taking care of the ball, they know that KU simply cannot beat them in a half-court set.

They're a good-to-great defensive team (when they're creating turnovers). But when opposing teams can handle the defense, KU becomes very, very average.

I don't know if it's coaching or if this team simply doesn't have the "talent" that they were advertised as having. But they'll need to figure out their half-court offense before the tourney or we'll see another early exit.

[Eleazar]

that's the spirit...but I've seen nothing from this team that shows we're safe in the first round....we can't shoot....we're vulnerable

Yeah, to give an outsider's perspective here, I have to agree with tTC.

You can have poor coaching, inconsistency, lack of focus, looking ahead to bigger games, teams that match up well with you, etc., and win through any of those things. Shooting, or at least clutch shooting, can usually bail you out. There's really no way around a poor FG%.

[ChiefaRoo]

i think they are just fine. You ****ing Chicken Littles need to eat a dick.

Yeah, the gheyhawks losing to a crappy TT team means nothing. Just move along, nothing to see hear until the March face plant.

[sedated]

chalmers was looking like the go-to-guy, but Collins has filled that roll the last couple games.

give him the start until he proves he is as inconsistant as the rest

[luv]

chalmers was looking like the go-to-guy, but Collins has filled that roll the last couple games.

give him the start until he proves he is as inconsistant as the rest
A late night sedated sighting!

[sedated]

A late night sedated sighting!

snow's a b!tch




mother nature has f*cked me yet again

[Boyceofsummer]

Yeah, the gheyhawks losing to a crappy TT team means nothing. Just move along, nothing to see hear until the March face plant.

Knight had a week to prepare his team. Knight has 880 wins. I knew this game would be tough to win. Some of you pricks need to get into coaching. And soon!

[Boyceofsummer]

I hope TT & Bobby Knight show-up again at home. What will A&M be ranked on the 24th?

[crazycoffey]

Is this a trick question???

[SithCeNtZ]

There is a problem with KU. Anyone who doesn't see it is in complete denial. This team (supposedly) has all this amazing talent. Two preseason conference players of the year. And neither has performed up to the hype. Since they supposedly have all these amazing players, they are not playing up to par. 2 and 4 point wins over 2 of the worst teams in the league is concerning. Sure, they've been winning, but they're playing pretty horrible en route.

Wright is awful. 36 assists and 47 turnovers up until the tonights game. Averaging under 10 points per game over the last couple of weeks. He simply cannot shoot. He's an awful shooter. Athletic ability will only take him so far.

Rush is hit or miss. He had a few shots roll in and out tonight. Unlucky. However, he's not nearly the player he was predicted to be.

Basically, this is a horrible half-court offensive team. When they're good, they're creating turnovers. Problem is, teams have realized that so long as they focus their efforts on taking care of the ball, they know that KU simply cannot beat them in a half-court set.

They're a good-to-great defensive team (when they're creating turnovers). But when opposing teams can handle the defense, KU becomes very, very average.

I don't know if it's coaching or if this team simply doesn't have the "talent" that they were advertised as having. But they'll need to figure out their half-court offense before the tourney or we'll see another early exit.

This post says it all. KU is simply the most over rated team in terms of individual players ever assembled on a basketball court. Each player has huge holes in their game that allow them to be completely absent in games. I just laughed in the preseason when I saw Rush and Wright as lottery picks. Who wants a PF who has a very low bball IQ, gets pushed around inside, and has no offensive game other than dunking? Who wants a SF who has no handles and has a very streaky shot? I think Julian Wright is the Mike Vick of college bball. He really doesn't have a position and he plays very inconsistently, but he always has those one or two plays a game mixed in with one great game every once in a while to convince you there is enough talent there to win with him and you keep thinking he will put it all together at some point.


This team simply can not survive 3-5 players having off nights every game. When everyone comes to play they all complement each other very well and we get games like the OSU or florida game. When everyone decides to take a night off, we get almost every other game this season.

Strangely enough, this is perhaps the only team in recent memory where I would feel better about our chances winning 2 games in the final four against big name teams than our first 2 games against 2 no name schools. This team has shown it will show up for the big games, but those first 2 rounds we won't play anyone like that.

[Skip Towne]

Yeah, the gheyhawks losing to a crappy TT team means nothing. Just move along, nothing to see hear until the March face plant.
You should know a lot about face plants you ignorant Shocker doofus. You have a lot of nerve even showing your face around here.

[Lzen]

I'm not sure why Texas Tech is not ranked in the top 25. I've thought all season that they were a top 25 team. RPI (for whatever that is worth) has them ranked at #24. I wouldn't fret too much about losing to a good team at their place. KU is not going to win the all. They will have their off days. Roy Williams teams had those off days, too. People have short memories. I'm not gonna throw Self under the bus just yet. If they lose in the first round or 2nd round of the NCAA tourney this year, I'll be ready to tar and feather him.

[Lzen]

Yeah, the gheyhawks losing to a crappy TT team means nothing. Just move along, nothing to see hear until the March face plant.
Anyone surprised to see this jackass here after a KU loss?
:rolleyes:
As much as I like Turgeon, I'm almost hoping they don't even make the tourney just to knock you down a notch.

[Lzen]

Yeah, to give an outsider's perspective here, I have to agree with tTC.

You can have poor coaching, inconsistency, lack of focus, looking ahead to bigger games, teams that match up well with you, etc., and win through any of those things. Shooting, or at least clutch shooting, can usually bail you out. There's really no way around a poor FG%.

48.4% is a poor FG shooting percentage? :shake:

[Bearcat]

I see these posts about "appreciate what you have", yet all the anti-KU people will be all over KU if they don't win the NC...

Problem is, every fan thinks KU should win each game by 40 every time out...

Win the Big XII tourney and make a run in March.. That is all that matters and in 3 weeks, this game means nothing.


It's not winning by 40 every night, and I personally didn't really care about yesterday, but there are some really good points in this thread. Self doesn't have anymore excuses about the offensive identity of this team or about motivating his (own) players.

That's the problem... you can't go on a run in March playing like this. On one hand, it's January, so it's not a big deal... OTOH, it only takes one A- game to get knocked out of the Big Dance.

[Reerun_KC]

I see these posts about "appreciate what you have", yet all the anti-KU people will be all over KU if they don't win the NC...



It's not winning by 40 every night, and I personally didn't really care about yesterday, but there are some really good points in this thread. Self doesn't have anymore excuses about the offensive identity of this team or about motivating his (own) players.

That's the problem... you can't go on a run in March playing like this. On one hand, it's January, so it's not a big deal... OTOH, it only takes one A- game to get knocked out of the Big Dance.


I agree....

[HonestChieffan]

1) Nothing. Its NCAA and no one wins every game
2) Bobby Knight aint a beginner
3)Be glad you are not Fizzou

[WilliamTheIrish]

I see these posts about "appreciate what you have", yet all the anti-KU people will be all over KU if they don't win the NC...


The anti KU people aren't the ones running their mouths with comments like "KU's 2nd team could win second place in the conference".

Reap/sow.

[Brock]

Yeah, the gheyhawks losing to a crappy TT team means nothing. Just move along, nothing to see hear until the March face plant.

Ha ha, look, a shocker fan. I guess I was wrong about how good Fluke Turgeon is.

[Reerun_KC]

Reap/sow.


You have Huggy, I wouldnt be surprised if you dont reap/sow in the near future....

[Bearcat]

The anti KU people aren't the ones running their mouths with comments like "KU's 2nd team could win second place in the conference".

Reap/sow.

Every team has idiot fans. The more you win, the more you have.

[Reerun_KC]

Every team has idiot fans. The more you win, the more you have.



Good Point...

[WilliamTheIrish]

You have Huggy, I wouldnt be surprised if you dont reap/sow in the near future....

Explain.

[CoMoChief]

The real problem with KU is that they aren't a great half court team. Generally a great shooter can bail you out if you suck at half court offense. KU doesn't have that.

This team needs to run. They are built for it. Kaun is not a good player, he's nothing more than a big body. His skills and just pure talent are sub par at best. This team is long lanky and very athletic. Wright and Arthur need to start together. Collins needs to start as well. Robinson is just playing terrible and shouldnt be starting. Good backup guy though. The guy has a motor and loves to push it.

Last night I was watching UNC vs. GaTech and I was just wondering what it would be like if Roy had this KU team. The Hi Low offense is a joke. I never understood why you want your big men to handle the ball more than they need to, especially with a guy who is as un-coordinated as Kaun is. The Carolina (or KU) secondary break allows the ball to be pushed down the court before the team has time to set up a defense. It allows the big man to set up down low setting up 1 on 1 play. With the quickness our bigmen have, Wright and Arthur would flourish.

The Hi low offense allows teams to sag down low which is what TTU did all day (great coaching job by Knight, just totally made Self look like a fool). KU needs to run run run run.

I dont expect KU to win every game, however I do believe they should take care of teams that are clearly inferior to them such as DePaul, TTU, and ORU. I would have taken a loss against Florida, personally I didn't expect them to win that game.

This is just bullshit. I really dont see how it's not coaching as the problem. KU has all the talent in the world to become a national champion. No reason why this team shouldnt run all over the gym.

Collins
Chalmers
Rush
Wright
Arthur

A little small as far as players on the blocks but this team would run run run. Get it done Self.

[Bearcat]

This is just bullshit. I really dont see how it's not coaching as the problem. KU has all the talent in the world to become a national champion. No reason why this team shouldnt run all over the gym.


I agree they need to run more, and it does come down to coaching... it comes down to having an identity on offense. It's one thing to have an offense that runs when they need to, but can also play a good half-court game.

The problem is when this team goes hi-lo, they throw it under the basket every trip down the court. Then they will stop that & start throwing up the first shot available.

Keeping the pressure on the other team is key, which means running more... they can run when they create turnovers on defense, but on your next possession if you just throw up a shot with 15 seconds on the clock or turn the ball over forcing it inside, you're letting them off the hook.

[Silock]

The anti KU people aren't the ones running their mouths with comments like "KU's 2nd team could win second place in the conference".

Reap/sow.

I don't recall ever seeing anyone saying that.

[HonestChieffan]

KU Haters are generally just a group of poor dissatisfied whiners. The fact is KU has a fantastic program, a winner coach, and tremendous history. Plus the average KU BB Fan knows Basketball and appreciates good basketball even from an opponant.

Ive been to KU Games and MU Games and the comparisons are many with the MU Crowd as rude and unappreciative as any I have ever seen. They dont deserve a winner as long as they reap such joy as thery do from the antic of the antlers and the loosers who populate that bunch.

Pile on if ya want to but its a fact. KU has a class program. Oh I didnt go to KU or MU so I dont have a dog in the fight.

[Silock]

The real problem with KU is that they aren't a great half court team. Generally a great shooter can bail you out if you suck at half court offense. KU doesn't have that.

This team needs to run. They are built for it. Kaun is not a good player, he's nothing more than a big body. His skills and just pure talent are sub par at best. This team is long lanky and very athletic. Wright and Arthur need to start together. Collins needs to start as well. Robinson is just playing terrible and shouldnt be starting. Good backup guy though. The guy has a motor and loves to push it.

Last night I was watching UNC vs. GaTech and I was just wondering what it would be like if Roy had this KU team. The Hi Low offense is a joke. I never understood why you want your big men to handle the ball more than they need to, especially with a guy who is as un-coordinated as Kaun is. The Carolina (or KU) secondary break allows the ball to be pushed down the court before the team has time to set up a defense. It allows the big man to set up down low setting up 1 on 1 play. With the quickness our bigmen have, Wright and Arthur would flourish.

The Hi low offense allows teams to sag down low which is what TTU did all day (great coaching job by Knight, just totally made Self look like a fool). KU needs to run run run run.

I dont expect KU to win every game, however I do believe they should take care of teams that are clearly inferior to them such as DePaul, TTU, and ORU. I would have taken a loss against Florida, personally I didn't expect them to win that game.

This is just bullshit. I really dont see how it's not coaching as the problem. KU has all the talent in the world to become a national champion. No reason why this team shouldnt run all over the gym.

Collins
Chalmers
Rush
Wright
Arthur

A little small as far as players on the blocks but this team would run run run. Get it done Self.

Excellent post.

[WilliamTheIrish]

Every team has idiot fans. The more you win, the more you have.

And on this board they'll pay the price for it. Just like a visiting Raider, Jet, Bengal fan.

[ChiefaRoo]

Anyone surprised to see this jackass here after a KU loss?
:rolleyes:
As much as I like Turgeon, I'm almost hoping they don't even make the tourney just to knock you down a notch.

Shut yer hole. TT is a mid tier team at best. I'm looking forward to KU going down this year.

[Brock]

Shut yer hole. TT is a mid tier team at best. I'm looking forward to KU going down this year.

And everyone is looking forward to your team not even making the NIT, so you shocker fans will crawl back under the rock you've been hiding under for 15+ years..

[ChiefaRoo]

KU Haters are generally just a group of poor dissatisfied whiners. The fact is KU has a fantastic program, a winner coach, and tremendous history. Plus the average KU BB Fan knows Basketball and appreciates good basketball even from an opponant.

Ive been to KU Games and MU Games and the comparisons are many with the MU Crowd as rude and unappreciative as any I have ever seen. They dont deserve a winner as long as they reap such joy as thery do from the antic of the antlers and the loosers who populate that bunch.

Pile on if ya want to but its a fact. KU has a class program. Oh I didnt go to KU or MU so I dont have a dog in the fight.

JR Giddens
Micah Downs
CJ Giles
program on probation

Very classy indeed.

How in the world can any KU fan be satisfied with KU's performances over the past 10 years plus? ZERO national titles after being so "classy" and after running a parade of Mickey D's AA's through Allen. As a WSU fan I know a lot about earning it the hard way and frankly KU basketball can't win the big game. Are non KU fans being too hard on KU? Not really when you consider how KU fans continually brag and genuflect and talk about how "Classy" their program is.


By the way classy left town when Roy and his "want to" moved back home to NC. Where he promptly won a Natl. Championship.

[WilliamTheIrish]

. Plus the average KU BB Fan knows Basketball and appreciates good basketball even from an opponant.....


What does the average KU bball fan know that all the rest of the CBB fans don't know?

[ChiefaRoo]

What does the average KU bball fan know that all the rest of the CBB fans don't know?

They know they're "CLASSY" and they really like smiling birds that wear colonial era shoes.

[duncan_idaho]

JR Giddens
Micah Downs
CJ Giles
program on probation

Very classy indeed.

Don't forget the history of NCAA violations... also very classy.

Anyone else find it ironic that an Illini fan is complaining about "offensive antics?"

85 percent of Mizzou fans hate the Antlers, by the way.

[HonestChieffan]

Not complaining, just pointing out a fact.

[Braincase]

Shut yer hole. TT is a mid tier team at best. I'm looking forward to KU going down this year.

TT is 14-5 and 3-1 in the Big 12 Conference. Your and idiot.

[ChiefaRoo]

TT is 14-5 and 3-1 in the Big 12 Conference. Your and idiot.
The Big 12 is not ranked highly as a conference AGAIN this year. Look at their record. It's a laundry list of cupcakes and losses against good teams. KU getting spanked by TT is a bad loss no matter how you slice it.

11-11 Sam Houston St. 9-6 (4-1) 88 79-64 W
11-13 Gardner-Webb 4-14 (3-5) 248 86-74 W
11-14 AR Little Rock 8-12 (4-6) 218 93-59 W
11-17 North Dakota St 7-6 (1-0) 127 85-81 W
11-20 at Marquette 15-4 (3-2) 32 72-87 L
11-21 at Air Force 17-2 (5-1) 8 53-67 L
11-25 at UTEP 12-7 (4-1) 142 94-77 W
11-29 at TCU 10-7 (2-3) 179 70-60 W
12-03 at Stanford 12-5 (4-3) 39 59-70 L
12-06 at Louisiana Tech 6-12 (4-2) 220 66-59 W
12-09 Centenary 7-13 (1-4) 265 98-64 W
12-16 at Arkansas 13-6 (2-3) 29 71-56 W
12-23 Bucknell 10-8 (4-1) 138 72-60 W
12-28 UNLV 15-4 (3-2) 17 66-74 L
01-01 New Mexico 11-8 (1-4) 117 70-68 W
01-06 Oklahoma 10-6 (3-2) 86 68-54 W
01-08 at Kansas St. 13-6 (3-2) 48 62-52 W
01-13 at Baylor 10-7 (1-4) 116 70-73 L
01-20 Kansas 16-3 (3-1) 20 69-64 W

[WilliamTheIrish]

Seriously, Roo. You need to get a grip. You sound like some of the more delusional KU fans on this board.
TT is a senior laden squad with two players that would be all conference in many leagues.
I see your guys took it on the chin again last night. What's up over there?

They are a good team.

[Braincase]

The Big 12 is not ranked highly as a conference AGAIN this year. Look at their record. It's a laundry list of cupcakes and losses against good teams. KU getting spanked by TT is a bad loss no matter how you slice it.

There's a reason Bobby Knight is the winningest coach in the history of Division I basketball. You're still an idiot.

[duncan_idaho]

Not complaining, just pointing out a fact.
What, that Mizzou has some bad fans? Every team has bad fans. Yes, even kU.

Just ask my friend who was hit in the back by a thrown beer bottle as he walked to his car following the football game in Lawrence two years ago.

[ChiefaRoo]

Seriously, Roo. You need to get a grip. You sound like some of the more delusional KU fans on this board.
TT is a senior laden squad with two players that would be all conference in many leagues.
I see your guys took it on the chin again last night. What's up over there?

They are a good team.

Bill, look at the RPI (above) of their opponents. They haven't performed at all on the road against top 40 RPI rated teams. Beating KU at home is their biggest win and I suspect KU isn't as good as they appear. TT has some talent but they lost to Baylor for Pete's sake.

[ChiefaRoo]

There's a reason Bobby Knight is the winningest coach in the history of Division I basketball. You're still an idiot.

So your saying he's a better coach than the toup? Ok, I'll agree with you on that.

[WilliamTheIrish]

Hey, somebody had to lose to Baylor. Thank God it wasn't my team.

God I am so happy Nancy Zimpher is the chancellor at UC.

[ChiefaRoo]

For the record I'm picking KSU to beat KU in Bramlage this year. Anyone want to bet? We'll use the Vegas line for points.

[WilliamTheIrish]

I see your guys (WSU) took it on the chin again last night. What's up over there?

'Roo?

[Brock]

'Roo?

For some odd reason he doesn't want to discuss the Schlockers.

[Saulbadguy]

Don't forget the history of NCAA violations... also very classy.

Anyone else find it ironic that an Illini fan is complaining about "offensive antics?"

85 percent of Mizzou fans hate the Antlers, by the way.
Wichita State leads both KU and K-State in the dept of major violations, IIRC.

[HonestChieffan]

But KU and KState are 4 year schools.

[ChiefaRoo]

Wichita State leads both KU and K-State in the dept of major violations, IIRC.

I don't think that's right Saul. KU has been on probation at least once in every decade since the 60's. WSU got nailed in the early 80's and that's it. Do you have any details?

[Saulbadguy]

Explain.
He can't.

[Braincase]

For the record I'm picking KSU to beat KU in Bramlage this year. Anyone want to bet? We'll use the Vegas line for points.

So you're betting K-State will cover or win? I'll bet a six K-State gets swept this year if you're betting the win. Cover? Meh.

[Skip Towne]

Wichita State leads both KU and K-State in the dept of major violations, IIRC.
Do you mean they cheat and are still a steaming turd?

[Saulbadguy]

I don't think that's right Saul. KU has been on probation at least once in every decade since the 60's. WSU got nailed in the early 80's and that's it. Do you have any details?
KU mens basketball has been on probation every decade in the 60's, so they have more major infractions in MBB than either school, but WSU has the most major infractions for the entire AD.

[WilliamTheIrish]

So you're betting K-State will cover or win? I'll bet a six K-State gets swept this year if you're betting the win. Cover? Meh.

You, me and Saul need to go that game in Manhattan together. It'd be a great time.

[Braincase]

I don't think that's right Saul. KU has been on probation at least once in every decade since the 60's. WSU got nailed in the early 80's and that's it. Do you have any details?

WSU got pounded with NCAA violations in the 70's, too. Until SMU got the death penalty, WSU was the most penalized school in NCAA history.

[Braincase]

You, me and Saul need to go that game in Manhattan together. It'd be a great time.

Last time I saw Saul, K-State had just beat KU at AFH. He then kicked me in my one remaining testicle and poured a warm Coors Light on my head. Now you get to tag team?

[Saulbadguy]

https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBi.MajorInfPackage.MI_Search_Input?p_Cmd=Go_Search

[ChiefaRoo]

'Roo?
WSU is a basketcase of fragile egos and self doubt right now. Right now they're totally psyched out and playing very, very soft on defense. I think Turg. is afraid to rip them Bobby Knight style because he's afraid they'll collapse. PJ Couisnard and Kyle Wilson are playing very well but the rest of the veterans - Sean Ogirri, Matt Brauer, Karon Bradley are stinking it up. Rumor has it Sean has girlfriend probems but I don't know if that's really an issue or not and I don't have details. The new guys Phil Thomasson looked fantastic against Syracuse and LSU but now looks like he belongs at Washburn.

Opponents have figured out how to exploit these weaknesses. They immediately double the post on an entry pass and force the guards to shoot. Normally, Sean would bury 5 to 7 threes on a team doing that but right now he's 1 for his last 13 or something close to that.

Finally, the Valley is just nails again this year and every team WSU plays is laying in the weeds for them with sellout crowds and pumped up opposition.

This team is a heck of a test for Turgeon as a coach. There are a lot of Freshmen on the bench who are taller and hungrier but they're Fresmen. I have no idea what to expect this Wed. at home against Drake.

[ChiefaRoo]

https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBi.MajorInfPackage.MI_Search_Input?p_Cmd=Go_Search

Man, I'm not going to type all that crap in Saul. Let some stat nerd do it. By the way I'm counting probation and sanctions as the same thing. I think KU leads on that by a mile. Prove me wrong.

[WilliamTheIrish]

Last time I saw Saul, K-State had just beat KU at AFH. He then kicked me in my one remaining testicle and poured a warm Coors Light on my head. Now you get to tag team?

LMAO.

Nah. I'm not that Bold and Daring. I'm just guessing that since Huggs called the fans out this week, I expect a good atmosphere for that game.

Think about it.

[Saulbadguy]

Man, I'm not going to type all that crap in Saul. Let some stat nerd do it. By the way I'm counting probation and sanctions as the same thing. I think KU leads on that by a mile. Prove me wrong.
You are wrong. WSU leads KU and K-State by 1. KU leads the mens basketball related infractions, WSU is mostly football.

[ChiefaRoo]

So you're betting K-State will cover or win? I'll bet a six K-State gets swept this year if you're betting the win. Cover? Meh.
Ok, I'll take the bet straight w/no points. I'll take the Kitties to win at least once for a six of Michelob or the equivalent and of course smack talking rights. :) Save this email guys.

[ChiefaRoo]

You are wrong. WSU leads KU and K-State by 1. KU leads the mens basketball related infractions, WSU is mostly football.

Ok, that makes sense. I'm not going to defend a football program that hasn't existed for 20 years. I just cheer for KSU during football season and snicker at the silly jayhawks and their smiling bird.

[Skip Towne]

You are wrong. WSU leads KU and K-State by 1. KU leads the mens basketball related infractions, WSU is mostly football.
They don't have enough fans to support football yet they still cheat? How funny is that?

[ChiefaRoo]

They don't have enough fans to support football yet they still cheat? How funny is that?

Oh shit Skip and his goat are here. Hi Skip, how goes the inbreeding?

[Saulbadguy]

They don't have enough fans to support football yet they still cheat? How funny is that?
Pretty similar to what happened in Lawrence a few years back.

[WilliamTheIrish]

WSU is a basketcase of fragile egos and self doubt right now. Right now they're totally psyched out and playing very, very soft on defense. I think Turg. is afraid to rip them Bobby Knight style because he's afraid they'll collapse. PJ Couisnard and Kyle Wilson are playing very well but the rest of the veterans - Sean Ogirri, Matt Brauer, Karon Bradley are stinking it up. Rumor has it Sean has girlfriend probems but I don't know if that's really an issue or not and I don't have details. The new guys Phil Thomasson looked fantastic against Syracuse and LSU but now looks like he belongs at Washburn.

Opponents have figured out how to exploit these weaknesses. They immediately double the post on an entry pass and force the guards to shoot. Normally, Sean would bury 5 to 7 threes on a team doing that but right now he's 1 for his last 13 or something close to that.

Finally, the Valley is just nails again this year and every team WSU plays is laying in the weeds for them with sellout crowds and pumped up opposition.

This team is a heck of a test for Turgeon as a coach. There are a lot of Freshmen on the bench who are taller and hungrier but they're Fresmen. I have no idea what to expect this Wed. at home against Drake.

Sitting at 3-5 right now. What kind of conference do you think it will take to get into the tourney?

Think they'll have to pull off the conference tourney championship to make it? I know you have a solid OOC record. Give me your best guess.

[Skip Towne]

Oh shit Skip and his goat are here. Hi Skip, how goes the inbreeding?
Speaking of inbreeding, how are the Shox doing? Sucking ass just as I predicted.

[ChiefaRoo]

Sitting at 3-5 right now. What kind of conference do you think it will take to get into the tourney?

Think they'll have to pull off the conference tourney championship to make it? I know you have a solid OOC record. Give me your best guess.

It depends on whether the NCAA gives 4 or 5 bids

Right now if it's only four~~
1) Mo State - Haven't been to WSU/WSU lost at Mo State
2) Creighton - Lost to WSU in Wichita/WSU hasn't been to Omaha
3) SIU - Haven't been to WSU/WSU lost at SIU
4)Northern Iowa - Beat WSU in Wichita (only home loss)/WSU hasen't been to Cedar Rapids

WSU?

Unless there is a major turnaround (which is possible) I see WSU out of the big dance unless they win the Valley Tourney in St. Louis. I wouldn't of said that 10 days ago but after losing to Illinois State and Indy State on the road they really have two bad losses on their record now.

[WilliamTheIrish]

It depends on whether the NCAA gives 4 or 5 bids

Right now if it's only four~~
1) Mo State - Haven't been to WSU/WSU lost at Mo State
2) Creighton - Lost to WSU in Wichita/WSU hasen't been to Omaha
3) SIU - Haven't been to WSU/WSU lost at SIU
4)Northern Iowa - Beat WSU in Wichita (only home loss)/WSU hasen't been to Cedar Rapids

WSU?

Unless there is a major turnaround (which is possible) I see WSU out of the big dance unless they win the Valley Tourney in St. Louis. I wouldn't of said that 10 days ago but after losing to Illinois State and Indy State on the road they really have two bad losses on their record now.

Fan base still behind Turg? They haven't turned on him? I'm only asking because it's never a far trip from the penthouse when things start going bad.

Also, what BB do you post on for Shox BBall?

[Saulbadguy]

Shockernet.net is pretty funny sometimes. Especially "ISASO" and "DaShox".

[ChiefaRoo]

Fan base still behind Turg? They haven't turned on him? I'm only asking because it's never a far trip from the penthouse when things start going bad.

Also, what BB do you post on for Shox BBall?

Only the biggest fair weather types are saying anything bad about Turg. Koch will be sold out against Drake on Wed. and the video intro will still say "Welcome to Turgeonville, population 10,500"

If you want to post on WSU's board it's - Shockernet.net

Saul is there all the time so come on by.

[Skip Towne]

Only the biggest fair weather types are saying anything bad about Turg. Koch will be sold out against Drake on Wed. and the video intro will still say "Welcome to Turgeonville, population 10,500"

If you want to post on WSU's board it's - Shockernet.com

Saul is there all the time so come on by.
Thanks for the invite, I'll stop by.

[WilliamTheIrish]

Only the biggest fair weather types are saying anything bad about Turg. Koch will be sold out against Drake on Wed. and the video intro will still say "Welcome to Turgeonville, population 10,500"

If you want to post on WSU's board it's - Shockernet.com

Saul is there all the time so come on by.

OK. Before I do that, how um..... tolerant of sarcasm and needling posters? Stuff like that.

BTW, I have two TV's going today. Anybody else watching Pitt and Marquette?

[ChiefaRoo]

Thanks for the invite, I'll stop by.

Ok, skip but try and be nice for a change. Everyone is in a bad mood over there right now.

[WilliamTheIrish]

Thanks for the invite, I'll stop by.


I figured the abuse you got here would be enough. Be sure to tell them how KU's 2nd team could win the Big 12. And the Valley. And the ACC.

[Skip Towne]

Ok, skip but try and be nice for a change. Everyone is in a bad mood over there right now.
Good, I'll get right over there and point out their shortcomings.

[WilliamTheIrish]

Good, I'll get right over there and point out their shortcomings.

LMAO Too funny.

[ChiefaRoo]

OK. Before I do that, how um..... tolerant of sarcasm and needling posters? Stuff like that.

BTW, I have two TV's going today. Anybody else watching Pitt and Marquette?

RoyalShock is the moderator. He's a very relaxed mod. Unless you post something profane or about a specific player or his family you won't get banned. Some of the posters are too literal and don't get the concept of smack so they can be a bit stuffy. That being said myself (top20shock), Rosewood, Awesome Sauce Malone all like to joke around and Subgod22 is an excellent basketball guy and is close to the program.

It only took me 10 minutes to get banned at Phog.net and all I did was make a few jokes about Jayhawk fans being ghey because some guy started a thread about how ripped KU's players were. I mean that kind of talk puts the ghey in gheyhawk :)

[Skip Towne]

I figured the abuse you got here would be enough. Be sure to tell them how KU's 2nd team could win the Big 12. And the Valley. And the ACC.
Are you still yapping? With that shit basketball program you have?. You should be apologizing for stinking up the league.

[ChiefaRoo]

Are you still yapping? With that shit basketball program you have. You should be apologizing for stinking up the league.

Yeah, skips right I heard KSU barely beat Texas Tech.

[Saulbadguy]

Don't say anything about BTK. Pretty much anything else goes.

[WilliamTheIrish]

RoyalShock is the moderator. He's a very relaxed mod. Unless you post something profane or about a specific player or his family you won't get banned. Some of the posters are too literal and don't get the concept of smack so they can be a bit stuffy. That being said myself (top20shock), Rosewood, Awesome Sauce Malone all like to joke around and Subgod22 is an excellent basketball guy and is close to the program.

It only took me 10 minutes to get banned Phog.net and all I did was make a few jokes about Jayhawk fans being ghey because some guy started a thread about how ripped KU's players were. I mean that kind of talk puts the ghey in gheyhawk :)


Phognet's just dominated by pussies like skip. They run their mouths about everything, but if you crack on phogboy, they run to the moderators. Pretty sad really. I haven't been banned there though.

I have been banned from Kstatefans.com.

[WilliamTheIrish]

Are you still yapping? With that shit basketball program you have?. You should be apologizing for stinking up the league.

Skip, go outside and adjust the cinder blocks on your trailer. Friggin Mobilehomans.

[WilliamTheIrish]

Hey Roo, I just registered. They send you a confirmation email. Is it automatic? Or do the mods verify emails before sending the confirmation?

let me know.

[HolyHandgernade]

Man you guys whine, just let the season play out. Florida lost 6 games before winning the tournament:

@ Tennessee
@ South Carolina
South Carolina
@ Arkansas
Tennessee
@ Alabama

The first two were back to back, and the last three were a string of losses as well with the Alabama game on Feb. 26th! Then they caught fire. They had just two regular season games left and then the SEC Tournament. Believe it or not, it is possible to jell late no matter how much the talent is hyped. And as for that "They should be running all the time" theory, have you guys noticed three things?

First, we get in a lot of foul trouble.
Second, we have a lot of turnovers.
Third, teams sag back on defense to prevent us from running all the time.

If we keep having to sit players down, we lose our depth to run all the ime. If we keep turning the ball over, turning up the pace is only going to exacberate the problem.

Sometimes, even with players that are just oozing talent, it takes a bit of time for it to start to jell. Anybody remember Kirk his freshman and sophomore years? Kaun has only been playing basketball a few years, I think he's doing quite well. As Captin Jack might say, some of you guys, "really need to find a girl, mate." You're obsessing on something you can't control . You have no idea what the dynamic of the team is or why the coach may do certain things. Sometimes, it takes a bit of time. Chill out, the KU team that last won it all had 11 losses!

We got 3! We have a win over Florida and blowout of OSU. Let me know if we get bounced again in the first round, then I'll evaluate "our problems".

-HH

[Silock]

And as for that "They should be running all the time" theory, have you guys noticed three things?

First, we get in a lot of foul trouble.
Second, we have a lot of turnovers.
Third, teams sag back on defense to prevent us from running all the time.

If you full-court press, you force the tempo of the game to become higher, and that leads to mistakes and defensive breakdowns. And later in the game, it plain makes the other team too tired to compete.

If we keep having to sit players down, we lose our depth to run all the ime. If we keep turning the ball over, turning up the pace is only going to exacberate the problem.

Depth is the least of KU's problems. The turnovers come from bad decision making in the half-court game, not because of the pace.

[HolyHandgernade]

And If you full court press all the time it leads to easy buckets for the other team as well. You won't pick off every pass. Half court game, huh? You mean like that half court pass thrown away near the end of the Missouri game that gave them a chance? I think you idealize a certain style and overlook its deficiencies.

-HH

[ChiefaRoo]

Hey Roo, I just registered. They send you a confirmation email. Is it automatic? Or do the mods verify emails before sending the confirmation?

let me know.

Bill, I don't really remember. I'm sure you'll get approved by tomorrow PM.

[Silock]

And If you full court press all the time it leads to easy buckets for the other team as well. You won't pick off every pass. Half court game, huh? You mean like that half court pass thrown away near the end of the Missouri game that gave them a chance? I think you idealize a certain style and overlook its deficiencies.

-HH

Yeah, it does lead to some easy buckets for the other team, but it leads to far more opportunities for your team. The benefits definitely outweight the negatives.

Call it overlooking deficiencies if you want, but look at the times KU presses versus when they don't. They really put the hurt on other teams when they dictate the game and don't let the other team dictate it to them.

[Bearcat]

And as for that "They should be running all the time" theory, have you guys noticed three things?

First, we get in a lot of foul trouble.
Second, we have a lot of turnovers.
Third, teams sag back on defense to prevent us from running all the time.

Sometimes, even with players that are just oozing talent, it takes a bit of time for it to start to jell. Anybody remember Kirk his freshman and sophomore years?

Sometimes, it takes a bit of time. Chill out, the KU team that last won it all had 11 losses!

We got 3! We have a win over Florida and blowout of OSU. Let me know if we get bounced again in the first round, then I'll evaluate "our problems".

-HH

I don't know about Florida, and it doesn't matter... I do know Syracuse wasn't ranked until late February, and was like #20 going into the tourney the year they won it all. None of it has a thing to do with Kansas.

As far as running, I don't think we should go back to Roy's style, because like you said, we already turn the ball over a lot.... I just think we get stuck saying "we're playing hi-lo for a few minutes", "we're going to push now". As previously said, we'll pressure for a few minutes, it'll work, and then we'll back off.

Quit living in the past ;) :p

I hope Self doesn't wait until we get bounced early to evaluate our problems.

[Skip Towne]

Yeah, it does lead to some easy buckets for the other team, but it leads to far more opportunities for your team. The benefits definitely outweight the negatives.

Call it overlooking deficiencies if you want, but look at the times KU presses versus when they don't. They really put the hurt on other teams when they dictate the game and don't let the other team dictate it to them.
You are correct. We have the depth to run an most teams don't. KU doesn't give up very many easy buckets while pressing. Certainly not enough to outweigh the points it creates.

[HolyHandgernade]

Yeah, it does lead to some easy buckets for the other team, but it leads to far more opportunities for your team. The benefits definitely outweight the negatives.

Call it overlooking deficiencies if you want, but look at the times KU presses versus when they don't. They really put the hurt on other teams when they dictate the game and don't let the other team dictate it to them.

The key is execution, it doesn't matter what style you use, if you don't execute it, it doesn't matter what style you use. Don't get me wrong, I like the push it up the floor brand of basketball as well. I thin people got spoiled during Williams' last two seasons. But what made that break work is that they had players who were very adept at passing the ball in the break. They weren't as athletic as this team is, but they were much better passers.

When you watch this team break, count how many passes occur. Very rarely will you see more than one. I watch all the time and I'm pleading with Mario through the TV: "Give the ball up, Julian's in the middle!"

But Mario's game is to drive it all the way and try and draw the foul. He's very good at it and converts more than he misses, but I think he would have a much easier time of it if he saw the pass earlier. Then you got to remember, most of these guys are sophomores! When Kirk and Nick were running this to perfection it was in their junior and senior years. Sometimes those nuamces take time to develop. You don't know, Self may be trying to get them to do this as well and just hasn't been able to get them to get the hang of it. If they can't get the hang of it, why on earth would you try to do it in a game? It may just be a baskeball maturity issue, not a talent or coaching issue. A smart coach isn't going to tell you (and his opponents) what his team's weaknesses are. Not only isn't it very strategic, but it might crush the confidence of young players. That's what I mean when I say you don't know all the dynamics of each team, some of these struggles are purposefully kept under wraps, which is hard at a school like KU.

Look what the players said after the game:

“We were not getting it inside. We were not moving the ball, not making the extra pass,” KU’s Russell Robinson said. “It was a chain reaction. It just wasn’t flowing. At halftime, the emphasis was to get the ball inside. We had to go to that.”

KU scored 36 points the second half, 28 the first.

The problem wasn't the lack of a full court press, it was ball movement, it was executing the game plan.

“We all played poorly the first half,” Rush said. “We weren’t getting things we normally get, fast breaks and transition points. We were not getting out and running like we usually do.”

Rush seems to think they are a running team, I don't think Self is telling them something different.

But in the second half … “We stopped worrying about things and started moving the ball,” guard Sherron Collins said. “We tried to make the extra pass and started playing as a team.”

See, it doesn't matter what the system is, if your not moving the ball, the execution falls off. Executing for entire game through an entire season is a sign of maturity, not necessarily just talent potential. Give 'em time, I think they will come around this year.

-HH

[Reerun_KC]

You, me and Saul need to go that game in Manhattan together. It'd be a great time.

Hey I wanna go....

[WilliamTheIrish]

Hey I wanna go....

Hey dude. let me see if I can round up a few tickets. Normally it's not a problem.

But I'll work on it, ok?

[Imon Yourside]

Actually our biggest problem is guys taking games off and trying to make the top 10 on sportcenter. I don't think anything Self says will help, they just have to learn to play 40 minutes every game.

[Braincase]

Ok, I'll take the bet straight w/no points. I'll take the Kitties to win at least once for a six of Michelob or the equivalent and of course smack talking rights. :) Save this email guys.


Heh heh heh. I have smack rights....

[Skip Towne]

Heh heh heh. I have smack rights....
Looks like Chiefapoo let his mouth overload his ass again.

[Lzen]

This thread is kind of funny now. Sure, at the time there were a lot of legitimate questions. But as of now, KU is playing very well, IMO. The ultimate measure, though, is whether Self can get them to win a few NCAA tourney games. This team definitely has the talent to win it all. That doesn't mean they will, but the pieces are there.

[Mr. Laz]

This thread is kind of funny now. Sure, at the time there were a lot of legitimate questions. But as of now, KU is playing very well, IMO. The ultimate measure, though, is whether Self can get them to win a few NCAA tourney games. This team definitely has the talent to win it all. That doesn't mean they will, but the pieces are there.
I still have seen that Self is better than average

The team has been more focus ... if you're gonna blame Self for that then you have to credit him for it too. Sherron Collins is doing great, in part because he ignores Self and just goes for it imo.


we'll have to wait until we fact a team with similiar talent to see if Self gets his ass handed to him again.

[Lzen]

Eh, Self is very good coach. Not a great coach by any means, but still good enough to win most games. I saw some good adjustments last night. And for those yammering for Collins to start, apparently Self was going to make him a starter. It was Collins who declined that out of respect for Rus Rob & Mario...you gotta love that kid. Self can bring in great talent. Perhaps that great talent will make up for some of his coaching shortcomings. At this point, I'll stick with my view that Self needs to prove he can win a few games beyond the 1st round this year. If this team gets bounced early, I want to see Self bounced because there will be absolutely no excuse for that. I don't think that will happen this year, though. I guess we'll see.

[teedubya]

There's no reason why KU shouldnt run other teams out of the gym.

I love Sherron Collins. Needs to replace Robinson. He runs and runs and runs. KU needs more of that.

Yes Im talking about Roy ball. This team is physically built for that. No reason why we should slow it down.

Yes. Yes. Yes. I love you.

[Lzen]

"Sherron was on a roll tonight. He was our best player. But I like the way we're doing it,'' Self said of bringing Collins in as a sub.

"It's probably not better for him, but it's certainly better for our team. I talked to Sherron about it and I said, 'You know you're playing well and you deserve a start,' and he said, 'I know, but if I did, it could screw up chemistry.'''

Collins recalled that conversation after going 8 of 11 against K-State (19-9, 8-5).

"Russell Robinson and Mario Chalmers are like big brothers to me,'' Collins said of KU's starting guards. "I don't want to mess them up by starting, and I don't want to hurt anyone's confidence. I feel good, though. I'm not hitting a wall.''

http://cjonline.com/stories/022007/haw_149775120.shtml

[leviw]

Sherron Collins is doing great, in part because he ignores Self and just goes for it imo.


Stupid statement.

"That's always what (coach Bill Self) tells me to do: just be in the attack mode," Collins said.

[Braincase]

Looks like Chiefapoo let his mouth overload his ass again.

So, what's the Planet rule on how long someone is absent before it's officially "ducking"? Chiefaroo was last logged on Monday night after the KU/K-State game, but alas, he no posty.

[htismaqe]

Where's the "nothing" option?

[HolyHandgernade]

It wasn't there which is why I didn't participate in the poll.

-HH

[ChiefaRoo]

So, what's the Planet rule on how long someone is absent before it's officially "ducking"? Chiefaroo was last logged on Monday night after the KU/K-State game, but alas, he no posty.

Ok, BC I owe you. PM me with details.

[Mr. Laz]

Stupid statement.

"That's always what (coach Bill Self) tells me to do: just be in the attack mode," Collins said.
so all the other players have just ignored him all this time?


bull .......


i still don't think Self likes to run ...... i have seen him hold out his hands and say "slow down" many,many times.

we have a big time running team when if first came and he kill that up tempo game first thing.

[Mr. Laz]

Where's the "Fans" option?

FYP

[ChiefaRoo]

Saul, you owe me. I stood up for the Kitties and they didn't take care of business at home against the Gheyhawks. Looks like a mid-major from the continental league of South Hampshire is going to have to do it in the tourney.

[leviw]

so all the other players have just ignored him all this time?


bull .......


i still don't think Self likes to run ...... i have seen him hold out his hands and say "slow down" many,many times.

we have a big time running team when if first came and he kill that up tempo game first thing.

How many players are left from "when he first came"?

They run plenty. Nobody's ignoring him.

Get over Roy.

[Braincase]

Ok, BC I owe you. PM me with details.

Done, but I don't have a clue as to when our paths might cross. I circulate between Topeka, Lawrence, & KC. If you're in the area, I'll give you a chance to drown our respective sorrows (even though I pull for the Jayhawks these days, WSU is still my alma mater, and I like to see them win.).

[jidar]

I've seen Self tell them to slow down but it's always been when they were getting a bit sloppy.
I'm sure you guys remember our turnover problems early on.
Self is doing a fine job though, that team is clicking.

[Mr. Laz]

How many players are left from "when he first came"?

They run plenty. Nobody's ignoring him.

Get over Roy.
dang ... talk about needing a decoder ring to understand someone

1. none of the players are left ..... duh. But he didn't run when they were here. In fact he hasn't run much at all except for when somebody makes a steal. At least until Collins starting taking off.

2. run plenty ..... pssft, see #1

we don't have a organized running game ... it's all free lance, when we make a steal or when Collins does it by himself.

3. Roy ... chit, as far as i'm concern Roy and that traitorous bastige Dean smith can both rot in UNC for all i care. If they ever win another game it will be 1 too many imo.

[CoMoChief]

Eh, Self is very good coach. Not a great coach by any means, but still good enough to win most games. I saw some good adjustments last night. And for those yammering for Collins to start, apparently Self was going to make him a starter. It was Collins who declined that out of respect for Rus Rob & Mario...you gotta love that kid. Self can bring in great talent. Perhaps that great talent will make up for some of his coaching shortcomings. At this point, I'll stick with my view that Self needs to prove he can win a few games beyond the 1st round this year. If this team gets bounced early, I want to see Self bounced because there will be absolutely no excuse for that. I don't think that will happen this year, though. I guess we'll see.

Great talent will make decent coaches look good. This is the case with the Jayhawks and Bill Self. But I gotta give him credit for him being able to bring in talent. Having that said it probably isn't too hard to recruit basketball players to KU.

[sedated]

I hadnt expected this thread to pop back up, after destroying the mediocre talent in the Big 12 N.

Self has done a good job with the half court offense this year. Seems we struggle more when the players are selfish (i.e. Wright)

But I'm still weary as to how well we'll play when going against a good team

[htismaqe]

FYP

Wow, you're insecure.

[leviw]

dang ... talk about needing a decoder ring to understand someone

1. none of the players are left ..... duh. But he didn't run when they were here. In fact he hasn't run much at all except for when somebody makes a steal. At least until Collins starting taking off.

2. run plenty ..... pssft, see #1

we don't have a organized running game ... it's all free lance, when we make a steal or when Collins does it by himself.

3. Roy ... chit, as far as i'm concern Roy and that traitorous bastige Dean smith can both rot in UNC for all i care. If they ever win another game it will be 1 too many imo.


I tried to make it simple in the last post, so you'd understand. I didn't work, so let's go in-depth...

1. He didn't run with the players Roy left, but you don't change your philosphy as a coach to suit three or four seniors. Self wanted to work the high-low through Simien and play ball-hawking defense on the other end. Those players never bought in, and it never worked.

Since that year, he's installed his system, and it is working. KU is playing defense like they never did under Roy. Ever. Defense may not mean anything to you, and it may not lead to the flashy, run-and-gun, 60-percent shooting style of Roy...but defense also turns in championship teams.

The high-low works, too. It's interchangeable. Essentially any player can play any position, meaning you can go big or small to match the opposition, as they did Monday to match K-Stae's smaller lineup. And it works against any defense. It creates the cuts you saw Collins make on Monday.

2. They do run, but near as much as Roy did. They don't rely on the secondary break, because the offense works. Push it (after turnovers, which they get a ton of) when it's available, otherwise, why wouldn't you instruct your players to slow it down and play what you practice?

3. Of course you don't want Roy to win another game, but you'd love for Roy's high-scoring, fast-break offense to come back to KU. Self and Roy have different styles. Roy likes to run and score points in transition, Self likes to play defense and create points. Both styles have been successful, but both are vastly different. And until you accept that, you'll never be happy.

[Mr. Laz]

1. He didn't run with the players Roy left, but you don't change your philosphy as a coach to suit three or four seniors.

3. Roy likes to run and score points in transition, Self likes to play defense and create points
so you think i'm right ...... Thanks

Self install his system which is NOT a running system.



Collin runs outside the normal Self's system


the rest of your post wasn't germane to the topic of RUNNING which is what we were talking about.

[Mr. Laz]

Wow, you're insecure.
you know that's what you were thinking .... don't deflect.

[CoMoChief]

I tried to make it simple in the last post, so you'd understand. I didn't work, so let's go in-depth...

1. He didn't run with the players Roy left, but you don't change your philosphy as a coach to suit three or four seniors. Self wanted to work the high-low through Simien and play ball-hawking defense on the other end. Those players never bought in, and it never worked.

I will agree with that, though the Hi-low offense sucks especially when you have a big man who sucks as bad as Kaun does.

Since that year, he's installed his system, and it is working. KU is playing defense like they never did under Roy. Ever. Defense may not mean anything to you, and it may not lead to the flashy, run-and-gun, 60-percent shooting style of Roy...but defense also turns in championship teams.

KU played good defense under Roy as well, it's just when you score quicker you give the other team more posessions. KU is playing good defense under Self though. Defense wins championships? This isn't the NFL. Tell that to the 2005 UNC team.

The high-low works, too. It's interchangeable. Essentially any player can play any position, meaning you can go big or small to match the opposition, as they did Monday to match K-Stae's smaller lineup. And it works against any defense. It creates the cuts you saw Collins make on Monday.

The Hi-low does work....in high school. The Hi-low does not work when you have someone like Kaun who sucks when the ball is in his hands. Why you would want the big men to handle the ball more than they need to is beyond me. You know what else works against any defense? A 4 corners motion offense. When Dean Smith attended the KU practice, Dean should have taken over the practice and implanted the KU Secondary Break.

2. They do run, but near as much as Roy did. They don't rely on the secondary break, because the offense works. Push it (after turnovers, which they get a ton of) when it's available, otherwise, why wouldn't you instruct your players to slow it down and play what you practice?

Bullshit, KU isn't a good half court offensive team. This team is physically made to run teams out of the gym.

3. Of course you don't want Roy to win another game, but you'd love for Roy's high-scoring, fast-break offense to come back to KU. Self and Roy have different styles. Roy likes to run and score points in transition, Self likes to play defense and create points. Both styles have been successful, but both are vastly different. And until you accept that, you'll never be happy.

I think most of KU fans still love Roy Williams. He is still my favorite coach. I root for UNC when I dont root for KU. That and I ****ing hate Duke. I just think Self needs to adapt more to the players he has. This teams needs to run and score from transition because they are not a good half court offensive team. KU doesn't have a solitary big man that can score. Julian Wright is more of mismatch post man because of his athleticsm. Roy liked to play defense too, people like you didn't see that. Didn't Miles lead the Big12 in steals or something like that, Collison in rebounds? etc?

[chiefqueen]

OK, count me as one that did not want to see Roy leave, but one of the problems with Roy's teams IMO has always been dribble penetration and then kick out for a wide open 3. I know that still happens under Self, but not with the frequency as it did with Roy.

[CoMoChief]

OK, count me as one that did not want to see Roy leave, but one of the problems with Roy's teams IMO has always been dribble penetration and then kick out for a wide open 3. I know that still happens under Self, but not with the frequency as it did with Roy.


Are you serious? Did you even watch any games under Roy?

[Mr. Laz]

don't know how this got transferred to "Roy"

first levi tells me my statement about Collins taking it upon himself to run "was stupid"

then he tells me i'm wrong that Self WANTS to run.

pulls a 180 and says that Bill didn't run with because he didn't want to change his system for the players he inherited.

then he completely goes off on a tangent and talks about defense and creating points.... which basically supports my original point that Bill Self is not a running type coach.

imo Russell Robinson could push the ball like Collins is ... he probably wouldn't make as many of the dipsy-doo shots ... but he could do it. From the very beginning Self told Robinson to take care of the ball and manage the game, then play good defense.

no wonder Collins doesn't want to start ... he doesn't want Self to leash him in too. He rather come off the bench and be able to freelance.

part of reason why we hit a brick wall sometimes is because we don't really have an offensive system. We don't have a plan with the fast break and secondary break and we aren't suited to play a power half court game.

we need to do better at either coaching the fast break or recruiting the power game.

[leviw]

don't know how this got transferred to "Roy"

first levi tells me my statement about Collins taking it upon himself to run "was stupid"

then he tells me i'm wrong that Self WANTS to run.

pulls a 180 and says that Bill didn't run with because he didn't want to change his system for the players he inherited.

then he completely goes off on a tangent and talks about defense and creating points.... which basically supports my original point that Bill Self is not a running type coach.

imo Russell Robinson could push the ball like Collins is ... he probably wouldn't make as many of the dipsy-doo shots ... but he could do it. From the very beginning Self told Robinson to take care of the ball and manage the game, then play good defense.

no wonder Collins doesn't want to start ... he doesn't want Self to leash him in too. He rather come off the bench and be able to freelance.

part of reason why we hit a brick wall sometimes is because we don't really have an offensive system. We don't have a plan with the fast break and secondary break and we aren't suited to play a power half court game.

we need to do better at either coaching the fast break or recruiting the power game.

You've missed my point so bad it's almost not even worth correcting...

I did say your post is stupid, because Sherron himself said Self tells him to be on the attack. He doesn't go against or ingnore what Self is telling him.

Secondly, I said KU runs plenty. I never said they run as much as Roy's teams. It would be stupid to run as much as Roy's teams. Despite the ignorance of CoMo, this team is not built to run. They are built to do what their coach wants them to do.

Collins doesn't start, because he doesn't want to screw up the team chemistry. It has nothing to do with freelance, because he runs the offense just like every other player on the team. He talked at length about this on Monday night after the game.

Also, how can you say this team doesn't have an offensive system? That doesn't even make sense. You're saying because this team doesn't run the secondary break that it doesn't have a real offensive system?

I broke down the high-low for you because it's obvious you don't understand Self's philosophy. You don't need a power halfcourt game to have success. You have to have guards who can shoot (check), players who are athletic that can penetrate and create shots (check) and players who are interchangable to create offensive mismatches (another check). You don't have to have a legitimate, powerful big man to have success in the high-low. That's why Kaun works in this, because he doesn't have to be dominant. He just has to be presence.

If this team wasn't 24-4, one of the best teams in the country and about to win its third Big 12 title under Self, your points might have merit. The fact that this team is successful just takes all the juice out your argument.

[BigRock]

The LA Times writer on Around The Horn picked Kansas to win the whole thing today. Just thought I'd mention it.

[Mr. Laz]

They are built to do what their coach wants them to do.
you're a true fan

[leviw]

you're a true fan

...and I'm right.

[Mr. Laz]

...and I'm right.
you make up the discussion as you go along ... change points or just generally make shit up.

how can you possibly have any idea about "right"


it's just not worth the time to try and keep you focused long enough to discuss it.

[leviw]

you make up the discussion as you go along ... change points or just generally make shit up.

how can you possibly have any idea about "right"


it's just not worth the time to try and keep you focused long enough to discuss it.

Come on. You're better than that.

I haven't changed one point.

And by making shit up, do you mean, like, "no wonder Collins doesn't want to start ... he doesn't want Self to leash him in too. He rather come off the bench and be able to freelance."

Oh, right, that's shit YOU made up.

[gblowfish]

They tend to taste their nads everytime they play a "B" team in the first round.

Besides that, they're fine.

[htismaqe]

you know that's what you were thinking .... don't deflect.

No, actually it wasn't. Sorry to disappoint you.

After a near decade of Steve Alford, I'd kill for your coach. Thank you very much.

[CoMoChief]

The LA Times writer on Around The Horn picked Kansas to win the whole thing today. Just thought I'd mention it.


If it was anyone other than Bill Plaschke (sp?) saying that I would believe it.

[CoMoChief]

They tend to taste their nads everytime they play a "B" team in the first round.

Besides that, they're fine.


You just mean the last 2 seasons :)

[Reerun_KC]

You just mean the last 2 seasons :)


People who hate KU have very short memories, Or really like Chickens...

[Skip Towne]

you're a dumbass
Fixed it.

[leviw]

Fixed it.

Now that's irony.

[Skip Towne]

Now that's irony.
It's the truth. Are you sure you ever watched a Roy Williams team?

[leviw]

It's the truth. Are you sure you ever watched a Roy Williams team?

Yep. A lot. I loved them most nights, on others (the ones that stick out the most) they broke my heart.

[Skip Towne]

Yep. A lot. I loved them most nights, on others (the ones that stick out the most) they broke my heart.
Since Roy got to KU when you were 4 and left when you were 18, you really didn't see that much of him. And it shows.

[leviw]

Since Roy got to KU when you were 4 and left when you were 18, you really didn't see that much of him. And it shows.

No. In all 10 years I remember, I never got a good feel for how the guy coached...or chocked when it counted...or underachieved with talent...or sucked Dean's dick.

[Skip Towne]

No. In all 10 years I remember, I never got a good feel for how the guy coached...or chocked when it counted...or underachieved with talent...or sucked Dean's dick.
What you saw when you were 9-14 doesn't count. And I'm only going to explain this to you once so pay attention. Before a OSU-KU game Sutton said he wanted to keep the game in the sixties. Roy quipped "Well, we want to play in the seventies so they can play in the 60's and we'll play in the 70's and we'll both be happy". Now, sonny boy, a team that wants to play in he 70's (which Roy's teams did) you HAVE to play defense. Which Roy's teams did. When you said they never played defense. Ever. That lit me up coming from a complete dumbass that missed 85% of Roy's games. And the Hi-Lo is a high school offense that works when you have a guy a foot taller than the other team. It sucks at this level and that is why you are seeing it less and less. I disagree with nearly everything you say and I've been watching the :KU: since 1957.

[leviw]

What you saw when you were 9-14 doesn't count. And I'm only going to explain this to you once so pay attention. Before a OSU-KU game Sutton said he wanted to keep the game in the sixties. Roy quipped "Well, we want to play in the seventies so they can play in the 60's and we'll play in the 70's and we'll both be happy". Now, sonny boy, a team that wants to play in he 70's (which Roy's teams did) you HAVE to play defense. Which Roy's teams did. When you said they never played defense. Ever. That lit me up coming from a complete dumbass that missed 85% of Roy's games. And the Hi-Lo is a high school offense that works when you have a guy a foot taller than the other team. It sucks at this level and that is why you are seeing it less and less. I disagree with nearly everything you say and I've been watching the :KU: since 1957.

And this, sir, is why 1957 makes sense, your age is getting in the way of your comprehension.

Go back and what I wrote about defense. I never ever said Roy's teams didn't play defense. I just said THIS KU team is playing defense better than Roy's teams did. And that can be backed up with statistics, which I invite you to check out.

Trust me, I've watched way more than 85 percent of Roy's games. And also, please check out Bill Self's succes in college basektball, including this season, and tell me again that the high-low doesn't work.

[CoMoChief]

What you saw when you were 9-14 doesn't count. And I'm only going to explain this to you once so pay attention. Before a OSU-KU game Sutton said he wanted to keep the game in the sixties. Roy quipped "Well, we want to play in the seventies so they can play in the 60's and we'll play in the 70's and we'll both be happy". Now, sonny boy, a team that wants to play in he 70's (which Roy's teams did) you HAVE to play defense. Which Roy's teams did. When you said they never played defense. Ever. That lit me up coming from a complete dumbass that missed 85% of Roy's games. And the Hi-Lo is a high school offense that works when you have a guy a foot taller than the other team. It sucks at this level and that is why you are seeing it less and less. I disagree with nearly everything you say and I've been watching the :KU: since 1957.


THANK YOU!!!

Im glad someone sees the Hi Low offense the same way as I do.

Theres nothing wrong with scoring as much and as fast as you can.

[CoMoChief]

And this, sir, is why 1957 makes sense, your age is getting in the way of your comprehension.

Go back and what I wrote about defense. I never ever said Roy's teams didn't play defense. I just said THIS KU team is playing defense better than Roy's teams did. And that can be backed up with statistics, which I invite you to check out.

Trust me, I've watched way more than 85 percent of Roy's games. And also, please check out Bill Self's succes in college basektball, including this season, and tell me again that the high-low doesn't work.


Then go back and compare Roy's success in college basketball with Bill Self and see what you get.

[Skip Towne]

And this, sir, is why 1957 makes sense, your age is getting in the way of your comprehension.

Go back and what I wrote about defense. I never ever said Roy's teams didn't play defense. I just said THIS KU team is playing defense better than Roy's teams did. And that can be backed up with statistics, which I invite you to check out.

Trust me, I've watched way more than 85 percent of Roy's games. And also, please check out Bill Self's succes in college basektball, including this season, and tell me again that the high-low doesn't work.
I've followed Bill Self since before you could wipe your own ass. As a player at OSU, an assistant at KU under Larry Brown to Oral Roberts U to Tulsa U to Illinois to KU. And he always starts with that stupid offense and comes off of it as he has this year. As soon as they started running they stopped losing to shitty teams. Did you notice that? Everybody else did.

[leviw]

Then go back and compare Roy's success in college basketball with Bill Self and see what you get.

It's hard to compare 14 years of coaching to 20 years. Why don't we wait until both careers are complete, then compare.

Even then, it wouldn't exactly be fair. Roy never paid his dues. He was handed a defending national championship team for his first job, thanks to his ties to Smith. Self started at ORU.

[leviw]

I've followed Bill Self since before you could wipe your own ass. As a player at OSU, an assistant at KU under Larry Brown to Oral Roberts U to Tulsa U to Illinois to KU. And he always starts with that stupid offense and comes off of it as he has this year. As soon as they started running they stopped losing to shitty teams. Did you notice that? Everybody else did.

I watched his team run that offense pretty flawlessly against K-State on Monday. According to Laz, they still aren't running. One of you Roy boys should get your story straight.

[Skip Towne]

It's hard to compare 14 years of coaching to 20 years. Why don't we wait until both careers are complete, then compare.

Even then, it wouldn't exactly be fair. Roy never paid his dues. He was handed a defending national championship team for his first job, thanks to his ties to Smith. Self started at ORU.
Self beat Roy twice while at Illinois. Once in he Dance and once in Chicago. I don't think Roy ever beat Self. I don't remember which one it was but one of Self's wins wasn't pretty from our end. They manhandled us. Think Darnell Jackson.

[leviw]

Self beat Roy twice while at Illinois. Once in he Dance and once in Chicago. I don't think Roy ever beat Self. I don't remember which one it was but one of Self's wins wasn't pretty from our end. They manhandled us. Think Darnell Jackson.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Roy beat Self in 2002 in the Sweet 16. Illinois beat KU pretty good in 2000, I think.

[Skip Towne]

Roy had a system in place whereby a player could take himself out of a game and could put himself back in after a breather. The player just flashed the "tired sign" (an upraised closed fist) and Roy took him out. It got comical at times as a player would see his replacement at the scorer's table and give the tired sign. Roy would just laugh. Roy needed that system as he ran so much and it let a tired player rest without losing many minutes. Self needs to learn from that. This team is built for speed.

[Skip Towne]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Roy beat Self in 2002 in the Sweet 16. Illinois beat KU pretty good in 2000, I think.
I don't remember that. I do remember him beating us up. Roy had talented but soft teams. As good as Collison was, he could be bullied. So could most of Roy's teams. Not so with Self of the past. He's always had enforcers like DJ. I want more of them. I like that style.

[leviw]

Roy had a system in place whereby a player could take himself out of a game and could put himself back in after a breather. The player just flashed the "tired sign" (an upraised closed fist) and Roy took him out. It got comical at times as a player would see his replacement at the scorer's table and give the tired sign. Roy would just laugh. Roy needed that system as he ran so much and it let a tired player rest without losing many minutes. Self needs to learn from that. This team is built for speed.

See, that's where I disagree. I don't think there's any reason Self should adopt anything from Roy. It's time for this coaching change and all its philosophies be accepted.

I agree this team is built for speed, but that doesn't mean they have to run all the time. They can use their defense to force turnovers and run in transition, but the speed can be used in this offense, too, as these guys show every night, most recently Sherron Collins on Monday.

[leviw]

I don't remember that. I do remember him beating us up. Roy had talented but soft teams. As good as Collison was, he could be bullied. So could most of Roy's teams. Not so with Self of the past. He's always had enforcers like DJ. I want more of them. I like that style.

That was KU's biggest problem last year. They were soft freshman, who folded when it counted. I don't see that same softness this year. Guys like Rush want to take shots when the game is on the line. That wasn't happening last year.

[Sam Hall]

Perhaps KU is peaking at the right time.

http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/story/6491650

[CoMoChief]

It's hard to compare 14 years of coaching to 20 years. Why don't we wait until both careers are complete, then compare.

Even then, it wouldn't exactly be fair. Roy never paid his dues. He was handed a defending national championship team for his first job, thanks to his ties to Smith. Self started at ORU.


First of all that wasnt the same team that won the national championship.

We could even compare what Roy has done ever since Self started coaching at Oral Roberts.

Self has never been to a final four, even with that really good Illinois team with Frank Williams and Brian Cook etc.

Sherron Collins needs to start, he pushes the ball and creates plays off of transition. Which in fact is probably the only reason we won at KSU.

[Skip Towne]

See, that's where I disagree. I don't think there's any reason Self should adopt anything from Roy. It's time for this coaching change and all its philosophies be accepted.

I agree this team is built for speed, but that doesn't mean they have to run all the time. They can use their defense to force turnovers and run in transition, but the speed can be used in this offense, too, as these guys show every night, most recently Sherron Collins on Monday.
I saw a clip of Tiger Woods the other day. The interviewer asked why he would tinker with his swing when he is already the best golfer ever. Tiger replied "To get better". No matter how good you are, you can always get better. Sometimes it means adopting another coach's idea (ala the tired system.) As good as Self is, he can get better. OK, sonny, run along now, lesson is over for tonight.

[CoMoChief]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Roy beat Self in 2002 in the Sweet 16. Illinois beat KU pretty good in 2000, I think.


Yup. It was the 2000-01 season and Drew Gooden played like a giant Vagina.

[CoMoChief]

Roy had a system in place whereby a player could take himself out of a game and could put himself back in after a breather. The player just flashed the "tired sign" (an upraised closed fist) and Roy took him out. It got comical at times as a player would see his replacement at the scorer's table and give the tired sign. Roy would just laugh. Roy needed that system as he ran so much and it let a tired player rest without losing many minutes. Self needs to learn from that. This team is built for speed.

Exactly.

[leviw]

First of all that wasnt the same team that won the national championship.

Yes, it was the team. Maybe not the players, but it was the Kansas Jayhawks.

We could even compare what Roy has done ever since Self started coaching at Oral Roberts.

Why? Did Self have a chance to win right away at Oral Roberts like Roy did at Kansas? No.

Self has never been to a final four, even with that really good Illinois team with Frank Williams and Brian Cook etc.

Please. Let's talk about all the great teams Roy didn't take to the Final Four. Poor argument.

Sherron Collins needs to start, he pushes the ball and creates plays off of transition. Which in fact is probably the only reason we won at KSU.

Sherron Collins doesn't want to start. Have you missed that whole conversation this week?

[CoMoChief]

See, that's where I disagree. I don't think there's any reason Self should adopt anything from Roy. It's time for this coaching change and all its philosophies be accepted.

I agree this team is built for speed, but that doesn't mean they have to run all the time. They can use their defense to force turnovers and run in transition, but the speed can be used in this offense, too, as these guys show every night, most recently Sherron Collins on Monday.


When you cant play half court basketball you have to score in transition. Turnovers dont just grow from trees and against decent or better teams you have many of them to score off of. As soon as the other team scores you get the ball out of the outlet and you ****in go before the opponent can set up the defense.

Thats why Kirk Hinrich is my favorite player of all time.

[leviw]

I saw a clip of Tiger Woods the other day. The interviewer asked why he would tinker with his swing when he is already the best golfer ever. Tiger replied "To get better". No matter how good you are, you can always get better. Sometimes it means adopting another coach's idea (ala the tired system.) As good as Self is, he can get better. OK, sonny, run along now, lesson is over for tonight.

Your lesson hasn't been that great. Sorry. Your argument is the "tired system".

You can be better, but why is Roy's system automatically better, especially with Self's players, which are all that remain (except Jeremy Case, a Roy recruit) on this team?

[Skip Towne]

When you cant play half court basketball you have to score in transition. Turnovers dont just grow from trees and against decent or better teams you have many of them to score off of. As soon as the other team scores you get the ball out of the outlet and you ****in go before the opponent can set up the defense.

Thats why Kirk Hinrich is my favorite player of all time.
Hinrich is right up there with the best guards KU has ever had. I know that covers a lot of ground but he fit that team with his buddy Collison as well as JoJo or any of them. AND, he could shoot the three with anybody.

[CoMoChief]

Yes, it was the team. Maybe not the players, but it was the Kansas Jayhawks.



Why? Did Self have a chance to win right away at Oral Roberts like Roy did at Kansas? No.



Please. Let's talk about all the great teams Roy didn't take to the Final Four. Poor argument.



Sherron Collins doesn't want to start. Have you missed that whole conversation this week?

Maybe not the players?!?!? Thats a retarded statement in itself, you might wanna rethink that one.

Your second argument does hold some ground however being that its KU, if Roy didnt make quota so to speak they would have canned his ass.

In the seasons 96-98 Roy did underachieve. One of those seasons they did run into a very good and hot Arizona team. Roy did have the best team on paper though. That was a choke job no doubt.

Collins doesnt wanna start?!?! Dont shit yourself, everyone wants to start, especially if youre a McD's All American looking to someday play in the NBA. Now is he being a good team mate and listening to the coach? Absolutely and it shows what kinda character the kid has got, but let me tell you this, he wants to start. Any player that is competitive as him wants to start and play and help his team as much as he can. And he should start. He's been the most consistant player for KU for the last month or so.

[Skip Towne]

Your lesson hasn't been that great. Sorry. Your argument is the "tired system".

You can be better, but why is Roy's system automatically better, especially with Self's players, which are all that remain (except Jeremy Case, a Roy recruit) on this team?
I've already dismissed you for this evening. Goodnight, n00b.

[CoMoChief]

Your lesson hasn't been that great. Sorry. Your argument is the "tired system".

You can be better, but why is Roy's system automatically better, especially with Self's players, which are all that remain (except Jeremy Case, a Roy recruit) on this team?


Because they are all freakishly athletic and can run. We have all seen what they can do when they run (except Wright lol, jk). KU is a pretty deep team especially at guard. They need to run.

[leviw]

Maybe not the players?!?!? Thats a retarded statement in itself, you might wanna rethink that one.

Your second argument does hold some ground however being that its KU, if Roy didnt make quota so to speak they would have canned his ass.

In the seasons 96-98 Roy did underachieve. One of those seasons they did run into a very good and hot Arizona team. Roy did have the best team on paper though. That was a choke job no doubt.

Collins doesnt wanna start?!?! Dont shit yourself, everyone wants to start, especially if youre a McD's All American looking to someday play in the NBA. Now is he being a good team mate and listening to the coach? Absolutely and it shows what kinda character the kid has got, but let me tell you this, he wants to start. Any player that is competitive as him wants to start and play and help his team as much as he can. And he should start. He's been the most consistant player for KU for the last month or so.

I'm not rethinking the statement. He inherited the Kansas Jayhawks. That's my point. Oral Roberts or Kansas, which job would you rather start with? Exactly.

Collins doesn't want to start because of team chemistry. He's realized, unlike some on this board, that KU is playing as well as anyone in the country right now, and it would be stupid to mess with the starting lineup. Should he be starting? Possibly, that's why Self offered to give him the job.

However, Cartier Martin has been K-State's best player all year, and he's come off the bench all but 13 of 28 games. Huggins thinking is, and I tend to think it has merit, that if you start your five best players, that's the best you're going to be all night. What's wrong with putting one of your best players, if not your best player, in the lineup once the game is five-seven minutes old. It's a burst of energy and confidence, plus your team just got that much better. Starting is just a label. Nothing more. You can play the same amount of minutes starting as you do off the bench.

[leviw]

I've already dismissed you for this evening. Goodnight, n00b.

Good. And thanks for the neg rep. Classy as always, Skip.

[Skip Towne]

Maybe not the players?!?!? Thats a retarded statement in itself, you might wanna rethink that one.

Your second argument does hold some ground however being that its KU, if Roy didnt make quota so to speak they would have canned his ass.

In the seasons 96-98 Roy did underachieve. One of those seasons they did run into a very good and hot Arizona team. Roy did have the best team on paper though. That was a choke job no doubt.

Collins doesnt wanna start?!?! Dont shit yourself, everyone wants to start, especially if youre a McD's All American looking to someday play in the NBA. Now is he being a good team mate and listening to the coach? Absolutely and it shows what kinda character the kid has got, but let me tell you this, he wants to start. Any player that is competitive as him wants to start and play and help his team as much as he can. And he should start. He's been the most consistant player for KU for the last month or so.
I saw where Collins said he didn't want to start "in deference to RussRob and Chalmers." Of course he wants to start. And I think he is better than either one of his "big brothers". I know he is when you need points at crunch time. But I'm trusting Self to keep them all happy. He's done a great job so far.

[leviw]

Because they are all freakishly athletic and can run. We have all seen what they can do when they run (except Wright lol, jk). KU is a pretty deep team especially at guard. They need to run.

You've yet to say WHY they should start running now. They're winning. They've been winning for months. Why change what's working?

You're taking the risk of messing up what's going right and messing with the players heads by instituting something they're not familiar with. Just because they are fast and athletic doesn't mean they can run for 40 minutes and be successful.

[Skip Towne]

Good. And thanks for the neg rep. Classy as always, Skip.
You really deserve more but I'm too lazy to spread some around. Maybe tomorrow.

[HolyHandgernade]

I can't remember if I read an interview or heard it on the radio, but the question was asked why more teams don't press all the time or try to run all the time after they get better players in their system. The coach answered, why do you want to play a muddy game if you have the studs on your side? Running up and down tends to equalize teams out and give teams who may not be as gifted or as big as you are a chance because it creates more open basket looks.

If you got athletes who can defend the halfcourt, why stretch 'em out and tire 'em out by extending it? Track meets actually take away from the more talented team with quick shots and/or open layups. If you have the advantage going toe-to-toe, why do you want to delete that advantage?

What you saw with Hinrich was the exception, not the rule. A senior, not freshman and sophmores. Look at this excerpt from cnnsi:

Williams has sped up the secondary break over the years in large part due to particular point guards like Jacque Vaughn and Kirk Hinrich at Kansas and Tar Heels Raymond Felton and Tywon Lawson. "Jacque was the first one who'd really push it and hide behind big guys who were just jogging back downcourt," Williams says. "Raymond got to where he would do it, and now Tywon's doing some of that. But Kirk Hinrich is still the best runner I've ever coached, and he could really finish plays."

Further, the seconday break is something Williams was well versed in and perfected. Self's style is different, why would you want your coach to implement something he's not used to? Do you really think a college coach goes out and recruits players he thinks would fit better into a different system? Do you think he goes out on the recruiting trail and says he's going to put them into a system that will be totally wrong for them? Its just an idiotic argument. It has very little to do with systems, it always boils down to execution. If you execute well, you can win at Wisconsin. Right now KU is executing better than they ever have, they are right where they need to be.

-HH

[leviw]

I can't remember if I read an interview or heard it on the radio, but the question was asked why more teams don't press all the time or try to run all the time after they get better players in their system. The coach answered, why do you want to play a muddy game if you have the studs on your side? Running up and down tends to equalize teams out and give teams who may not be as gifted or as big as you are a chance because it creates more open basket looks.

If you got athletes who can defend the halfcourt, why stretch 'em out and tire 'em out by extending it? Track meets actually take away from the more talented team with quick shots and/or open layups. If you have the advantage going toe-to-toe, why do you want to delete that advantage?

What you saw with Hinrich was the exception, not the rule. A senior, not freshman and sophmores. Look at this excerpt from cnnsi:



Further, the seconday break is something Williams was well versed in and perfected. Self's style is different, why would you want your coach to implement something he's not used to? Do you really think a college coach goes out and recruits players he thinks would fit better into a different system? Do you think he goes out on the recruiting trail and says he's going to put them into a system that will be totally wrong for them? Its just an idiotic argument. It has very little to do with systems, it always boils down to execution. If you execute well, you can win at Wisconsin. Right now KU is executing better than they ever have, they are right where they need to be.

-HH

And with that, argument over. Again, good job, HH.

[leviw]

You really deserve more but I'm too lazy to spread some around. Maybe tomorrow.

I'm fine with. Neg reps don't bother me. I'm just curious as to how I "deserve" them? Because my opinion is different than yours? Because I haven't been watching KU since 1957? Because I don't have 40,000 posts?

[Skip Towne]

I can't remember if I read an interview or heard it on the radio, but the question was asked why more teams don't press all the time or try to run all the time after they get better players in their system. The coach answered, why do you want to play a muddy game if you have the studs on your side? Running up and down tends to equalize teams out and give teams who may not be as gifted or as big as you are a chance because it creates more open basket looks.

If you got athletes who can defend the halfcourt, why stretch 'em out and tire 'em out by extending it? Track meets actually take away from the more talented team with quick shots and/or open layups. If you have the advantage going toe-to-toe, why do you want to delete that advantage?

What you saw with Hinrich was the exception, not the rule. A senior, not freshman and sophmores. Look at this excerpt from cnnsi:



Further, the seconday break is something Williams was well versed in and perfected. Self's style is different, why would you want your coach to implement something he's not used to? Do you really think a college coach goes out and recruits players he thinks would fit better into a different system? Do you think he goes out on the recruiting trail and says he's going to put them into a system that will be totally wrong for them? Its just an idiotic argument. It has very little to do with systems, it always boils down to execution. If you execute well, you can win at Wisconsin. Right now KU is executing better than they ever have, they are right where they need to be.

-HH
I never read posts that are this long. But the first part totally ignores who has depth on the bench to do the running. If you have a stable of thoroughbreds like KU has, you run. If you don't you lose to DePaul and ORU. The halfcourt, run the clock strategy is what equals teams up. Not running.

[CoMoChief]

I can't remember if I read an interview or heard it on the radio, but the question was asked why more teams don't press all the time or try to run all the time after they get better players in their system. The coach answered, why do you want to play a muddy game if you have the studs on your side? Running up and down tends to equalize teams out and give teams who may not be as gifted or as big as you are a chance because it creates more open basket looks.

If you got athletes who can defend the halfcourt, why stretch 'em out and tire 'em out by extending it? Track meets actually take away from the more talented team with quick shots and/or open layups. If you have the advantage going toe-to-toe, why do you want to delete that advantage?

What you saw with Hinrich was the exception, not the rule. A senior, not freshman and sophmores. Look at this excerpt from cnnsi:



Further, the seconday break is something Williams was well versed in and perfected. Self's style is different, why would you want your coach to implement something he's not used to? Do you really think a college coach goes out and recruits players he thinks would fit better into a different system? Do you think he goes out on the recruiting trail and says he's going to put them into a system that will be totally wrong for them? Its just an idiotic argument. It has very little to do with systems, it always boils down to execution. If you execute well, you can win at Wisconsin. Right now KU is executing better than they ever have, they are right where they need to be.

-HH

This team doesn't have the adequate big men to run the hi low offense. The shit only works in HS. You hardly see it in the NCAA at the highest levels at least. This team has a bunch of lanky skinny 6-9 mismatch swingmen who can transition like a son of a bitch if they would just do it more often. The more you run run run, the more tired the other team gets and there are VERY few teams that are as deep as KU is. It also shrinks the morale of the other team. Many Roy teams had the "kill" factor, meaning they wouldnt just beat you, they would beat the living shit out of you and would make you pay for it while doing it. I understand that Self's philosophy is different than that in slowing it down and playing good defense , but this team is physically gifted for that (Roy's) style of play.

[HolyHandgernade]

This team doesn't have the adequate big men to run the hi low offense. The shit only works in HS. You hardly see it in the NCAA at the highest levels at least. This team has a bunch of lanky skinny 6-9 mismatch swingmen who can transition like a son of a bitch if they would just do it more often. The more you run run run, the more tired the other team gets and there are VERY few teams that are as deep as KU is. It also shrinks the morale of the other team. Many Roy teams had the "kill" factor, meaning they wouldnt just beat you, they would beat the living shit out of you and would make you pay for it while doing it. I understand that Self's philosophy is different than that in slowing it down and playing good defense , but this team is physically gifted for that (Roy's) style of play.

Which is why we are 22-4? Becuse it only works in high school? Is Florida a high school team? Our big guys are lanky? Sasha and Darnell are not lanky. Wright is playing a bit out of position, but his position is already occupied by Rush. Arthur is a freshman. I see it as Self simply trying to get the most talent he can on the floor. The high postman does not have to be a tree trunk in this system, he has to be a good passer. The kill factor is just attitude that comes with experience. Roy's teams that had the kill factor were heavily upperclassmen. Fans like to see it run up and down the court. How well did that work for OU in '88? How about us against Syracuse? Its not a cure all, it works if executed well. I see this team get too excited the more they try to speed it up. They make bad passes and bad turnovers. When they execute the gameplan, it looks faster because of the execution, not because they are running more. They win consistently by double digits and have one of the top defenses in the nation. I really don't think one can ask for much more.

-HH

[CoMoChief]

Which is why we are 22-4? Becuse it only works in high school? Is Florida a high school team? Our big guys are lanky? Sasha and Darnell are not lanky. Wright is playing a bit out of position, but his position is already occupied by Rush. Arthur is a freshman. I see it as Self simply trying to get the most talent he can on the floor. The high postman does not have to be a tree trunk in this system, he has to be a good passer. The kill factor is just attitude that comes with experience. Roy's teams that had the kill factor were heavily upperclassmen. Fans like to see it run up and down the court. How well did that work for OU in '88? How about us against Syracuse? Its not a cure all, it works if executed well. I see this team get too excited the more they try to speed it up. They make bad passes and bad turnovers. When they execute the gameplan, it looks faster because of the execution, not because they are running more. They win consistently by double digits and have one of the top defenses in the nation. I really don't think one can ask for much more.

-HH


I'm sorry but I'm just gonna have to agree to disagree. You got some good points, but I just dont agree with it.

[Saulbadguy]

This thread is the shining example of why I flip you guys so much shit.

[WilliamTheIrish]

I never read posts that are this long....

Concentration goes out the door quickly after the first toke.

[Skip Towne]

Concentration goes out the door quickly after the first toke.
I didn't read this post - too long

[Reerun_KC]

Concentration goes out the door quickly after the first toke.


speaking from experience?

[leviw]

This thread is the shining example of why I flip you guys so much shit.

Shit. We deserve it.

[HolyHandgernade]

I never read posts that are this long.

Sorry, I'll sum it up: I'm right and you're wrong. :)

-HH

[Skip Towne]

Sorry, I'll sum it up: I'm right and you're wrong. :)

-HH
Can't be

[Reerun_KC]

Sorry, I'll sum it up: I'm right and you're wrong. :)

-HH


Skip wrong? Did the sun forget to come up today? Hell freeze over?

[WilliamTheIrish]

speaking from experience?

Now this post is one that skip would read. Boring, stupid, and written by an author who thinks he's making a funny.

[HolyHandgernade]

Can't be

'Tis true, ask anyone I care to know!

-HH

[Skip Towne]

Now this post is one that skip would read. Boring, stupid, and written by an author who thinks he's making a funny.
Yes, that was a quality post. Funny too.

[Jordan]

I hate Bill Self!

Granted I am an MU fan, but I think he is, and always has been, garbage.

He can recruit, but that's where his ability ends in my opinion.

He is now the worst coach in the Kansas-missouri big 12 rivalry as Huggy-Bear and Mike Anderson AKA the savior are better in my opinion.

[WilliamTheIrish]

I hate Bill Self!

Granted I am an MU fan, but I think he is, and always has been, garbage.

He can recruit, but that's where his ability ends in my opinion.

He is now the worst coach in the Kansas-missouri big 12 rivalry as Huggy-Bear and Mike Anderson AKA the savior are better in my opinion.

You'll need to cliff notes this post down to one sentence. Skip's too high to read that much text.

[Skip Towne]

You'll need to cliff notes this post down to one sentence. Skip's too high to read that much text.
Huh?

[leviw]

I hate Bill Self!

Granted I am an MU fan, but I think he is, and always has been, garbage.

He can recruit, but that's where his ability ends in my opinion.

He is now the worst coach in the Kansas-missouri big 12 rivalry as Huggy-Bear and Mike Anderson AKA the savior are better in my opinion.

Goodbye credibility.

[leviw]

Huh?

ROFL Perfect.

[CoMoChief]

I hate Bill Self!

Granted I am an MU fan, but I think he is, and always has been, garbage.

He can recruit, but that's where his ability ends in my opinion.

He is now the worst coach in the Kansas-missouri big 12 rivalry as Huggy-Bear and Mike Anderson AKA the savior are better in my opinion.


Sorry but I would take Self over Anderson anyday. You're retarded if you think otherwise. MU wanted Self when Norm retired, but boosters and other sorts of ****ed up politics at MU led to the hiring of Quit Snyder.

[chiefqueen]

Well, it seems as though some of you are gonna get your wish:
http://www2.kusports.com/news/2007/feb/22/robinson_out_saturday/

[CoMoChief]

Well, it seems as though some of you are gonna get your wish:
http://www2.kusports.com/news/2007/feb/22/robinson_out_saturday/

As far as Collins starting in his place ...HELL YES!!!!!

But it will suck donkey balls not having Robinson for depth. He provides great great depth at the G position.

[Saulbadguy]

I hate Bill Self!

Granted I am an MU fan, but I think he is, and always has been, garbage.

He can recruit, but that's where his ability ends in my opinion.

He is now the worst coach in the Kansas-missouri big 12 rivalry as Huggy-Bear and Mike Anderson AKA the savior are better in my opinion.
Mike Anderson sucks. He has alot of talent on that team and they play like shit.

[CoMoChief]

Mike Anderson sucks. He has alot of talent on that team and they play like shit.


MU has one player that is somewhat worth a shit (now at least) and thats Stefon Hannah.

Keon Lawrence is emerging but is decent at very best.

[Saulbadguy]

MU has one player that is somewhat worth a shit (now at least) and thats Stefon Hannah.

Keon Lawrence is emerging but is decent at very best.
They have 4 RSCI top 100 players on there team. Keon Lawrence, Kalen Grimes, Marshall Brown, and Leo Lyons. That is a pretty talented team overall.

[CoMoChief]

They have 4 RSCI top 100 players on there team. Keon Lawrence, Kalen Grimes, Marshall Brown, and Leo Lyons. That is a pretty talented team overall.


I dont care what they were rated in HS because all of those players are completely overrated. Jeffrey Ferguson and Kevin Young were ranked high too.

Brown is a very very very very poor version of Ricky Paulding. Freakish athleticism except unlike Paulding, Brown can't shoot.

You can make an argument that Grimes is worse than Kaun, and thats saying something.

Lawrence is emerging.

Lyons wont amount to anything while he's at MU.

I think Tiller will emerge to become a player someday.

[Pants]

I hate Bill Self!

Granted I am an MU fan, but I think he is, and always has been, garbage.

He can recruit, but that's where his ability ends in my opinion.

He is now the worst coach in the Kansas-missouri big 12 rivalry as Huggy-Bear and Mike Anderson AKA the savior are better in my opinion.

Hahaha. Good to know, but I'll take the 1st place in Big12, #6 rank in the nation and a top 3 seed in NCAA tourney with Bill Self anyway.

[sedated]

better make their f*cking free throws.

that OU game started to remind me of syracuse

[teedubya]

This thread is the shining example of why I flip you guys so much shit.

So, wait... You aren't a KU basketball fan this year? Come on, really?

[hawkchief]

I hate Bill Self!

Granted I am an MU fan, but I think he is, and always has been, garbage.

He can recruit, but that's where his ability ends in my opinion.

He is now the worst coach in the Kansas-missouri big 12 rivalry as Huggy-Bear and Mike Anderson AKA the savior are better in my opinion.

Spoken like a fan that has no understanding that being a top-flight recruiter is a huge component of being a good or great coach. Good luck with Anderson "coaching-up" a bunch of 2 and 3 stars while Self continues to "struggle" with McDonald AA players like Julian, Sherron, Brandon, Arthur, Aldrich etc, etc, etc. I guess another Big XII title this year for Self and KU just proves your point as to how much he sucks.

Enjoy Mike Anderson, you could have had Self if your joke for an athletic dpeartment wasn't so fugged up when he was available.