Anyone want to talk Football anymore

[Believer]

This has been a great site since the playoff game.

Since everything else posted here has been non-football related I might as well say it:

Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior. He is the way, the truth, and the life.


Now watch the complaints "This doesnt have anything to do with football!!!!"

hahaha

[Simplex3]

No.

[boogblaster]

Pray for two OLmen two DTackles at least one fast LBer two WRers and that Green comes out of his slump and leads us to the Promise-Land .....

[Stewie]

I punted work on Friday. Does that count?

[Baby Lee]

Do you honestly view your role as a witness for Christ to consist merely of "hey, I told them he's the savior, not my fault if they didn't listen?"


Really?

[Simplex3]

Do you honestly view your role as a witness for Christ to consist merely of "hey, I told them he's the savior, not my fault if they didn't listen?"


Really?
I'd tell him to crucify himself but I think he may have already. :shrug:

[Sully]

What do you mean, "Lord and Savior?"

[Believer]

Do you honestly view your role as a witness for Christ to consist merely of "hey, I told them he's the savior, not my fault if they didn't listen?"


Really?

and when did I say:

"My role as a witness for Christ consists of merely "hey, I told them he's the savior, not my fault if they didnt listen."

you kind of just made that definition of me up.

[Sully]

When I take communion, am I really eating Jesus?

[Believer]

When I take communion, am I really eating Jesus?

lessee,

no, that would be symbolism.

[Ebolapox]

lessee,

no, that would be symbolism.

the catholics say you're wrong... and they were the first church this side of the dark ages, the true church of christ (ignoring the fact that jesus was a JEW)

[cdcox]

the catholics say you're wrong... and they were the first church this side of the dark ages, the true church of christ (ignoring the fact that jesus was a JEW)

And the Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc.

Not to mention Jesus.

The teaching that the the Lord's Supper is only symbolic is a recent innovation in the Church.

[Believer]

the catholics say you're wrong... and they were the first church this side of the dark ages, the true church of christ (ignoring the fact that jesus was a JEW)

im not Catholic.

[Sully]

lessee,

no, that would be symbolism.

That's weird. Some Christians believe that I am. Are those Christians not real Christians?

[Believer]

And the Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc.

Not to mention Jesus.

The teaching that the the Lord's Supper is only symbolic is a recent innovation in the Church.

religion does this. symbolism. ritual.

Belief is about where your heart is. Its not about eating a wafer.

otherwise, the other 99.99% of the time you are not eating communion, are you without Christ?

[FDS]

V

[Believer]

That's weird. Some Christians believe that I am. Are those Christians not real Christians?

Not at all, as long as they believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

[Sully]

im not Catholic.

So is "your" Christianity the only Christianity?
Is everyone else going to hell?

[Mr. Laz]

attention whore

[Believer]

So is "your" Christianity the only Christianity?
Is everyone else going to hell?

No. Not as long as they believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

[Sully]

What if someone believes Jesus was the son of God, but also that God revealed God's self in other ways to other people.

DOes that make me not a Christian?

[Believer]

What if someone believes Jesus was the son of God, but also that God revealed God's self in other ways to other people.

DOes that make me not a Christian?

mmm, not sure what you are saying. Can you be more specific?

[Sully]

mmm, not sure what you are saying. Can you be more specific?

I'm not sure what's unspecific about what I posted.

[cdcox]

religion does this. symbolism. ritual.

Belief is about where your heart is. Its not about eating a wafer.

otherwise, the other 99.99% of the time you are not eating communion, are you without Christ?

Here is what Jesus says about what comes from the heart of man (Mark 7:20-23):

He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "

I'll trust what God gives to me in the sacrament, rather than what is in myown sinful heart.

[Stewie]

Where's Herm's 3-and-out when we need one?

[Brock]

I believe "Believer" is about to be schooled in scripture.

[Simply Red]

Dont listen to any of these people around here Believer.


Rock on with your bad self!

[Believer]

alright then, just trying to have an open discussion with you.

i'll try to interpret what you said then.

If you are saying you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and have accepted him in your life, you are indeed a Christian.

If you happen to believe other religions offer salvation, or that there are other ways to Heaven, you might be incorrect and following some false teachings, but you are still a Christian.

lets just say I wouldnt go to your church, but you have your Salvation in Christ and you are indeed a Christian.

I have no problems with other denominations, whether they be Catholic , Baptist, Episcopal, Lutheran, Pentecostal etc, although I dont really believe in "denominations" because we are supposed to be one boy of Christ, each bringing our own gifts and talents into the church.

the key is, have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, do you believe and trust in Him?

the rest of it is all religious ritual and symbolism.

Now, sure, there are some hardcore, Bible-belt,Evangelicals who will disagree with me. Thats fine. thats why I didnt stay at the Southern Baptist Church in South Carolina we were going to when I first got Saved. They were too hung up on their prejudices (anti-Catholic etc etc)

the Lord made it very simple. He didnt put the robber next to Him on the Cross through a laundry list of requirements before saying to Him "You will be in paradise with me today" He didnt make the woman at the well go through a ceremony.
Their faith is Him was what mattered.

If you have that Faith then you are a Christian.

[robags0817]

the best part abot jesus christ for me is no matter what you believe he is or isn't The son of god. You have to admit one thing we have already proven that he walked the earth and did exist. Now the thought that a "human being" who walked the earth 2000 years ago claimed to be GOD, and started his own religion. You can belive in him or not, but if you take the stance that he is not Son of God, how cool is it that he has fooled millions and millions of people for over 2000 years.

[Sully]

alright then, just trying to have an open discussion with you.

i'll try to interpret what you said then.

If you are saying you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and have accepted him in your life, you are indeed a Christian.

If you happen to believe other religions offer salvation, or that there are other ways to Heaven, you might be incorrect and following some false teachings, but you are still a Christian.

lets just say I wouldnt go to your church, but you have your Salvation in Christ and you are indeed a Christian.

I have no problems with other denominations, whether they be Catholic , Baptist, Episcopal, Lutheran, Pentecostal etc, although I dont really believe in "denominations" because we are supposed to be one boy of Christ, each bringing our own gifts and talents into the church.

the key is, have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, do you believe and trust in Him?

the rest of it is all religious ritual and symbolism.

Now, sure, there are some hardcore, Bible-belt,Evangelicals who will disagree with me. Thats fine. thats why I didnt stay at the Southern Baptist Church in South Carolina we were going to when I first got Saved. They were too hung up on their prejudices (anti-Catholic etc etc)

the Lord made it very simple. He didnt put the robber next to Him on the Cross through a laundry list of requirements before saying to Him "You will be in paradise with me today" He didnt make the woman at the well go through a ceremony.
Their faith is Him was not mattered.

If you have that Faith then you are a Christian.


So in what way has Jesus "saved" us?

[Believer]

Here is what Jesus says about what comes from the heart of man (Mark 7:20-23):

He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "

I'll trust what God gives to me in the sacrament, rather than what is in myown sinful heart.

So, what you are saying is, your relationship with Him, what you believe about Him, whats in your heart doesnt matter.
As long as you eat a wafer or and/or get sprinkled with water, thats what He wants?

You misinterpret the scripture.

Whats in mans heart is naturally sin. But we can repent of that sin, and accept Jesus Christs payment on the Cross for our sin, and the Holy Spirit will come dwell in our hearts.

Its not about religion, its about relationship.

[Sully]

Which version of the Bible is the literally inerrant one?

[Believer]

So in what way has Jesus "saved" us?

How about this, instead of remaining mysterious about what you believe, how about you tell me what Jesus is to you?
What was his role in the Bible, any version you would like?

[Believer]

How did Jesus Save us?

From John 3:16-18

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

[rad]

Saw a doc'y on Evangelical Christianity the other night. What a bunch of psychos. Especially Falwell- he needs to get over himself.

What made me laugh is that the pastor that the doc'y centered around got convicted of pedophilia and sodomy. He even admitted to it to his congregation. Religion is such a racket.

[Believer]

Saw a doc'y on Evangelical Christianity the other night. What a bunch of psychos. Especially Falwell- he needs to get over himself.

What made me laugh is that the pastor that the doc'y centered around got convicted of pedophilia and sodomy. He even admitted to it to his congregation. Religion is such a racket.


yeah, when they make those documentaries they always are sure to pick out the whackos like Falwell or show bizarre stuff like the CHristian Wrestling Federation. And when she is listening to the radio its never to the mainstream Pastors its always the crazy ones screaming "You're gonna burn in Hell!!!!!"

Not once in that film did she show a Pastor teaching on Jesus Christ. Not once did they show just regular people loving the Lord.

I dont disagree with everything Michael Moore says but he does film with an agenda in mind and this lady did so as well.

and btw, New Life Church is much, much bigger than one Pastor, but by focusing on just the Pastor, when he did slip up, it was an effective way of discouting the 50,000 people and the incredible ministry they do at that church.

[cdcox]

the rest of it is all religious ritual and symbolism.

If you have that Faith then you are a Christian.

The question is, "how do you get faith?" The Bible teaches that Faith comes from:

1. Hearing the word of God (Romans 10: 14,17):

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

2. Baptism

(Mark 16:16)
Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved.

(John 3:5)
No one can enter the the kindom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

(Acts 2:37-38):

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


(1 Peter 3:20):

Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

3. Holy Communion

"Drink of it, all of you; this cup is the new testament, in my blood, which is shed for you for the forgiveness of sin."



What you are calling ritual and symbolism are the very micracles of God that make faith possible.

[cdcox]

So, what you are saying is, your relationship with Him, what you believe about Him, whats in your heart doesnt matter.
As long as you eat a wafer or and/or get sprinkled with water, thats what He wants?

You misinterpret the scripture.

Whats in mans heart is naturally sin. But we can repent of that sin, and accept Jesus Christs payment on the Cross for our sin, and the Holy Spirit will come dwell in our hearts.

Its not about religion, its about relationship.

No, what I believe is important. But faith does not come from me. It is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8) Faith is not possible without the work of the Holy Spirit. And according to the Bible, the Holy Spirit works through hearing the Word of God, Baptism, and the Lord's Supper. These are the means of grace. The Bible does not describe any way of getting faith apart from these miracles that God gives the Church.

[DaFace]

My only complaint is that you titled this thread as you did. I opened it up thinking that it actually WOULD be a football thread, only to find your typical BS. You can post stuff like this all you want (within reason), but at least title it in such a way that people can move along if they're not interested.

[cdcox]

Whats in mans heart is naturally sin. But we can repent of that sin, and accept Jesus Christs payment on the Cross for our sin, and the Holy Spirit will come dwell in our hearts.



You have the order wrong. You cannot provide one Bible passage that shows a person comming to faith a part from hearing the Word of God. You hear the Word of God, the Holy Spirit comes through that Word, and enables you to repent and beleive in Christ. Faith is God's work, not ours.

[Bugeater]

My only complaint is that you titled this thread as you did. I opened it up thinking that it actually WOULD be a football thread, only to find your typical BS. You can post stuff like this all you want (within reason), but at least title it in such a way that people can move along if they're not interested.
Well, there is the mouse-over preview thingy, but I agree nonetheless. It's obvious this guy just enjoys being controversial.

[Bwana]

:shake:

[Simplex3]

I'd like to take back my first post in this thread and go with this one:

.

[Taco John]

As a Christian, it offends me when other Christians try to Push Jesus Christ like he's a vaccuum cleaner that you have to buy now or miss the special deal. They hurt the religion when they act like such fools, and aren't really witnessing to anybody. That method of "witnessing" is nothing more than a self important pat on their own back, and is truly a hollow gesture.

[Ultra Peanut]

DON'T MESS WITH FOOTBALL!

http://imgred.com/http://kei.iichan.net/blood/src/1148926713620.jpg

[2112]

Believer

There is nothing wrong with being religious..but..you are like a ****ing broken record on here..all of your posts are either..''get saved today''..or..you guys are always picking on me for talking about Jesus..I have yet to read one of your posts that does not include whining or religion...maybe..just maybe if you would broaden your posting criteria,everybody would stop ''picking on you''.

[Believer]

You have the order wrong. You cannot provide one Bible passage that shows a person comming to faith a part from hearing the Word of God. You hear the Word of God, the Holy Spirit comes through that Word, and enables you to repent and beleive in Christ. Faith is God's work, not ours.

exactly. its not our work. Baptism is a crucial act of obediance and communion is as well. But it is not how we are Saved. None of it is through our actions or works. It is through what Christ did on the Cross.
And it is through our acceptance of that gift.

And I agree, one needs to hear, that is why it is important to share the Gospel. God speaks to us through people, we cannot rely on a burning bush. When a person is witnessed to, when we hear the word of God spoken from an annointed Pastor, the Holy Spirit goes to work in us.
We can choose to accept or reject what the Lord is trying to say to us.

But once we accept that gift of Salvation and believe in Jesus Christ we are with Him and He is in us. The rest of it is obediance.

We have more in common than not. One must hear. And one must accept.

But if you believe in Jesus Christ, not just believe he "exists", but believe on Him, trust in Him, put your faith in Him, you are a Christian.

the rest of it is important, but on this much you can rely.

[Believer]

Believer

There is nothing wrong with being religious..but..you are like a ****ing broken record on here..all of your posts are either..''get saved today''..or..you guys are always picking on me for talking about Jesus..I have yet to read one of your posts that does not include whining or religion...maybe..just maybe if you would broaden your posting criteria,everybody would stop ''picking on you''.

ok, Herm should have stayed with Huard.

How was that?

[Simplex3]

Believer

There is nothing wrong with being religious..but..you are like a ****ing broken record on here..all of your posts are either..''get saved today''..or..you guys are always picking on me for talking about Jesus..I have yet to read one of your posts that does not include whining or religion...maybe..just maybe if you would broaden your posting criteria,everybody would stop ''picking on you''.
You should have gone with "F**k off and go away" as your advice.

[2112]

ok, Herm should have stayed with Huard.

How was that?
You're a waste of time..how's that?

[Ultra Peanut]

ok, Herm should have stayed with Huard.

How was that?
http://imgred.com/http://www.coinfacts.com/half_cents/1837_half_cent_token_rev.jpg

[Believer]

As a Christian, it offends me when other Christians try to Push Jesus Christ like he's a vaccuum cleaner that you have to buy now or miss the special deal. They hurt the religion when they act like such fools, and aren't really witnessing to anybody. That method of "witnessing" is nothing more than a self important pat on their own back, and is truly a hollow gesture.

As a Christian, where do you place Jesus Christ in your life? Just in the quiet places? Church on Sunday?
that has been the problem with most Christians, an unwillingness to do what the Bible commanded of us.

[2112]

You should have gone with "F**k off and go away" as your advice.
Yep

[BucEyedPea]

Anyone want to talk Football anymore?

football

the lord giveth the football
the lord taketh the football away

[NewChief]

As a Christian, where do you place Jesus Christ in your life? Just in the quiet places? Church on Sunday?
that has been the problem with most Christians, an unwillingness to do what the Bible commanded of us.

Matthew 20:12
And this I say unto you, he who spammeth the Bulletin Board shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Ultra Peanut]

the best part abot jesus christ for me is no matter what you believe he is or isn't The son of god. You have to admit one thing we have already proven that he walked the earth and did exist. Now the thought that a "human being" who walked the earth 2000 years ago claimed to be GOD, and started his own religion. You can belive in him or not, but if you take the stance that he is not Son of God, how cool is it that he has fooled millions and millions of people for over 2000 years.:spock:

[Bowser]

Jesus can't help but NOT save!

[NewChief]

In all seriousness, Believer, I'd like to comment on your method of witnessing. In my opinion, the most effective witness is in the way one lives one's life. People look upon the believer and they see that there is something different about him/her. They then find out that the difference is Christ. The problem with witnessing online, especially in your case, is that people don't really know anything about you except that you like to martyr yourself, draw attention to your religious beliefs, hate Trent Green, and love Damon Huard. There's not a lot in there that really makes you a person to emulate. Contrast this with a poster like PastorMike who walks the walk online as well as, I assume, offline. He provides a quiet witness through his example here on the board.

I'm sure you'll continue to do your thing, and that's fine. If witnessing is your prime objective, though, I think you need to reconsider your methods.

[Taco John]

As a Christian, where do you place Jesus Christ in your life? Just in the quiet places? Church on Sunday?
that has been the problem with most Christians, an unwillingness to do what the Bible commanded of us.


Matthew 6 : 5-6 (King James Version)

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.


6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

[Smed1065]

This has been a great site since the playoff game.

Since everything else posted here has been non-football related I might as well say it:

Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior. He is the way, the truth, and the life.


Now watch the complaints "This doesnt have anything to do with football!!!!"

hahaha

No I do not. I am a die hard and went to Indy, did you?

So I like football but shut up. Thank you!

I saw Red there and many others from the Planet but did not meet you IIRC.

[|Zach|]

Ha, now Believer is going out of his\her way to be offended.

Nice.

[Bowser]

Ha, now Believer is going out of his\her way to be offended.

Nice.

He's here to enlighten us, you insensitive heathen prick.

[cdcox]

exactly. its not our work. Baptism is a crucial act of obediance and communion is as well. But it is not how we are Saved. None of it is through our actions or works. It is through what Christ did on the Cross.
And it is through our acceptance of that gift.


Baptism and communion are God's work, not ours. God saves us through Baptism (I was baptized as an infant and had no doing in it). God forgives sins through communion. I view faith as a product of God's will exercised through his church, not individual human will. I don't have much use for "acceptance" or "decision" language because it is not how God speaks of faith in the Bible.

[Ebolapox]

heh heh... I can't help but believe (HEH) that whoever believer really is (multiple account?), he's laughing at all the controversy he's stirring up

[Jilly]

Do you think "Christ" was just his last name? Like Smith or Roberts?

[Jilly]

If God is so good, how could God send people to hell?

[Jilly]

Do you think maybe people just made a mistake and killed Jesus?

[Bwana]

He's here to enlighten us, you insensitive heathen prick.

ROFL

[Simplex3]

If God is so good, how could God send people to hell?
Wow. With a comment that deep this is going to get interesting fast.

[|Zach|]

He's here to enlighten us, you insensitive heathen prick.
http://tn3-2.deviantart.com/fs9/300W/i/2006/074/9/c/Righteous_Smiting_by_luminous_scapegoat.jpg

[ChiefsLV]

Should we create a religion forum for Believer? I was expecting this to be a football thread by its title, although I admit I was skeptical, since it was created by Believer.

[Simplex3]

Should we create a religion forum for Believer? I was expecting this to be a football thread by its title, although I admit I was skeptical, since it was created by Believer.
So far today I've only had one glass of OJ, one bowl of Fiber One cereal, and 24 oz of water. How about you?

[stevieray]

If God is so good, how could God send people to hell?

people send themselves by the choices they make.

[ChiefsLV]

So far today I've only had one glass of OJ, one bowl of Fiber One cereal, and 24 oz of water. How about you?

A bowl of cereal and a glass of water. Tonight I'm hitting up one of those great Vegas buffets though. I'll make it all up there.

[Simplex3]

A bowl of cereal and a glass of water. Tonight I'm hitting up one of those great Vegas buffets though. I'll make it all up there.
Sweeeeet. I went a grabbed some cheese and crackers with some juice. Not sure what I'm eating tonight.

[Jilly]

people send themselves by the choices they make.

Then what does "saving" mean? are you telling me because I make a bad choice, God doesn't "Save" me?

[Simplex3]

Then what does "saving" mean? are you telling me because I make a bad choice, God doesn't "Save" me?
Nobody really cares about any of this. We want to know what you had for breakfast and what you're eating for dinner.

[|Zach|]

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[Jilly]

Nobody really cares about any of this. We want to know what you had for breakfast and what you're eating for dinner.

oh,
ummm,
I had a cinnamon roll for breakfast....and chili for dinner at my church - which I will be sure to just not eat the crackers as I might be eating Jesus.

[ChiefaRoo]

Jesus, is staying at my house this weekend. We're going out tonight to pick up chicks and to get fooked up. He's quite the wingman as all he has to do is wave his hand across the face of any hot chick and she goes for me. I love this guy plus he's my personal savior too.

[Calcountry]

ok, Herm should have stayed with Huard.

How was that?What? No faith in Green?

[Spott]

Jesus, is staying at my house this weekend. We're going out tonight to pick up chicks and to get fooked up. He's quite the wingman as all he has to do is wave his hand across the face of any hot chick and she goes for me. I love this guy plus he's my personal savior too.


Another good thing about going out drinking with Jesus is the whole water to wine thing. Talk about a cheap way to get drunk.

[007]

V

Remember, remember, the fifth of November.

[ChiefaRoo]

Another good thing about going out drinking with Jesus is the whole water to wine thing. Talk about a cheap way to get drunk.

I prefer to buy him anything he wants to drink because it's the right thing to do. I mean, if you date a massage therapist you just don't ask for a back rub everytime she comes over. I mean, that would just be selfish. The same goes for Jesus.

[Bugeater]

I started off this morning with a cup of coffee and a cinnamon bun, and I had a chicken sandwich a while ago. Tonight it's bratwurst and beer.

[Believer]

In all seriousness, Believer, I'd like to comment on your method of witnessing. In my opinion, the most effective witness is in the way one lives one's life. People look upon the believer and they see that there is something different about him/her. They then find out that the difference is Christ. The problem with witnessing online, especially in your case, is that people don't really know anything about you except that you like to martyr yourself, draw attention to your religious beliefs, hate Trent Green, and love Damon Huard. There's not a lot in there that really makes you a person to emulate. Contrast this with a poster like PastorMike who walks the walk online as well as, I assume, offline. He provides a quiet witness through his example here on the board.

I'm sure you'll continue to do your thing, and that's fine. If witnessing is your prime objective, though, I think you need to reconsider your methods.

thats assuming that this is my entire life, what you read here on Chiefsplanet. If that was the case, i might see your point.

We dont know what any of us do when we arent online, I can assure you I try to fill my life with the Christian walk. But while im here, I dont wish to hint here or hint there, not when there is truth to be told.

[NewChief]

thats assuming that this is my entire life, what you read here on Chiefsplanet. If that was the case, i might see your point.

We dont know what any of us do when we arent online, I can assure you I try to fill my life with the Christian walk. But while im here, I dont wish to hint here or hint there, not when there is truth to be told.

You miss my point entirely, but that's okay. Continue on.

[Believer]

Then what does "saving" mean? are you telling me because I make a bad choice, God doesn't "Save" me?

Sin has condemned us. God has provided a way to Salavation. Jesus Christ died on the Cross to pay the penalty for your sin. By accepting that Jesus is the Son of God, and died for your sins, you have Salavation.

If you choose to reject him, then you dont.

[Phobia]

thats assuming that this is my entire life, what you read here on Chiefsplanet. If that was the case, i might see your point.

We dont know what any of us do when we arent online, I can assure you I try to fill my life with the Christian walk. But while im here, I dont wish to hint here or hint there, not when there is truth to be told.
You've employed your method long enough to know if it's effective or not. I'm curious, had much success? Had anybody come to church with you? Had anybody inquire about more information?

[Believer]

What? No faith in Green?

No, I have faith in Jesus, not Trent Green or any other football player.

[Spott]

I prefer to buy him anything he wants to drink because it's the right thing to do. I mean, if you date a massage therapist you just don't ask for a back rub everytime she comes over. I mean, that would just be selfish. The same goes for Jesus.

That's a good point. I never thought about it that way. I guess that would be like bringing a friend with me that needs saving every time we hang out. Next time I'll buy him the beers.

[Spott]

Damn, it looks like no salavation for me.

[Believer]

Baptism and communion are God's work, not ours. God saves us through Baptism (I was baptized as an infant and had no doing in it). God forgives sins through communion. I view faith as a product of God's will exercised through his church, not individual human will. I don't have much use for "acceptance" or "decision" language because it is not how God speaks of faith in the Bible.

We are not Saved by Baptism. If you had no doing in it then you werent Born Again. Jesus said "You must be Born Again". You have to have made a conscience decision to accept Christ. A baby has no capacity to make that choice. But once we get to the age where we are capable of making that decision, we must do so. It is not done for us.


"That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” I John 1:9

the following is from the author David Stewart and it sums it up pretty well:

What Does It Mean To Be Born Again?

This term first appears in the Bible in John chapter three...

"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." -John 3:1-7

To understand this Biblical term, it is necessary to understand that there are TWO BIRTHS. The "first" birth is the PHYSICAL BIRTH when you were born into this world from your mother and father. When the Bible speaks of being "born of water," it is speaking about the physical birth (NOT baptism). The "second" birth is a SPIRITUAL BIRTH, which means to be born of the "Spirit" (God's Holy Spirit). This raises a couple of questions: Why does a person need to be born spiritually?...and, What is a "spiritual" birth?

The Bible teaches that man is created in the image of God. God manifests Himself to mankind in the Persons of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Likewise, mankind is composed of a body, soul, and spirit. Our body is the "tent" you could say of the soul and spirit (the body is a temporary dwelling place). Our soul is composed of the heart (to feel), the mind (to think), and the will (to decide). Our spirit is dead in sin when we are born; that is, we are born void of God. No person is ever born with God. The only exception is the Lord Jesus Christ Who came as God in the flesh (1st Timothy 3:16). Our spirit is dead in trespasses and sin the Bible says...

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" -Ephesians 2:1,2

The unsaved person cannot understand God...

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." -1st Corinthians 2:14

The reason why you need to be "spiritually" born is because you have never been spiritually born to begin with. So when the Bible speaks of being "born again," it actually means "born for the second time." You were born physically into this world, but you were born without the Spirit of God in your soul (spiritually dead). Yes, God created you, but He gave you a freewill to decide for yourself where you will spend eternity. God never forces anyone to accept Christ as their Saviour, He simply offers a warm invitation to anyone who wants to have their sins forgiven and go to heaven. Salvation is a free gift paid for by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, but we must accept it or it WILL be forever forfeited when we leave this world (die).

To be "spiritually" born means that God's Holy Spirit "quickens" (or makes alive) your dead spirit. When you invite the Lord Jesus Christ into your heart, asking Him to forgive all your sins, then God the Father and God the Son come into your heart in the form of God the Holy Spirit (John 14:23). The "Holy Spirit" is "God with us."

I have God living in my soul, the Holy Spirit of God. I am not God, but I have God living in my heart. The Holy Spirit of God guides me, comforts me, teaches me, rebukes me, chastises me, convicts me, encourages me, empowers me, loves me, strengthens me, and so much more. The Holy Spirit of God uses the Word of God to do these things. This is why it is critically important for every believer to live in their Bible (and make sure you have a reliable Bible, I only use the King James, not the "new" King James either!). A person cannot understand the Bible without the presence of the Author...God is the Author. When you become born again (or born for the second time), then God will come into your heart (never to leave -Hebrews 13:5) and you will understand many new things for the first time in your life...

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." -2nd Corinthians 5:17

It is ONLY through the Precious Word of God that anyone can be born-again! The second birth is very different from the first birth. Surely, no one can born into this world again physically...there is no turning back the hands of time. However, you most certainly can be born again spiritually into God's family through the Spirit of Christ ("But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" -Romans 8:9). The way we become "born again" is found in the Word of God...

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." -1st Peter 1:23

We are born again by the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:1,14: Revelation 19:13). The following statement sums it up pretty good...

If you're born once, then you die TWICE; If you're born twice, then you die ONCE.

If you don't invite Jesus Christ into your heart and become a born again Christian, then you will burn in hell-fire for all eternity (John 3:18, 36; Revelation 20:15; 21:8).

The GOOD NEWS (the gospel) is that it is very EASY to partake of the second birth, the spiritual birth. God came down to this earth 2,000 years ago and took upon Him the form of a man, that man was the Lord Jesus Christ (1st Timothy 3:16). Literally, the Godhead became incarnate (Colossians 2:9). Jesus was born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14). Jesus never sinned one time (2nd Corinthians 5:21). Jesus died, was buried and rose again after three days (1st Corinthians 15:1-4). Jesus shed His blood for our many sins (Colossians 1:14).

There are a few things you must know to be saved:

1. You are a sinner (Romans 3:10,23).

2. You deserve to go to hell to pay for your sins (Romans 6:23; Revelation 21:8).

3. Jesus Christ, God in the flesh (God's Son), died upon the cross to pay for your sins (John 3:16-18; Romans 5:8).

If you believe that Jesus is the Saviour (the Christ) Who paid for your sins, and you realize your sinful condition enough to see your need for a Saviour, then you are ready to be born again. All that remains for you to do is to personally ask Jesus Christ to forgive your sins and to come into your heart as your own personal Saviour. It matters not exactly what you pray, just as long as you realize these two main truths:

1. You are a sinner!

2. Jesus is the Saviour!

You might pray something like this...

Dear Jesus, I know that I am a hell-deserving sinner. I believe that you are the Son of God, the Saviour, Who died upon the cross to pay for my sins. I now believe upon You as my personal Saviour, and ask you to please forgive me of all my sins. Please save me and take me to heaven when I die. Amen.

If you sincerely asked Jesus to forgive your sins, then you are now part of God's family. You could have just prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner." The thief on the cross simply asked Jesus to "remember" him, and Jesus most certainly did. There is nothing "magic" about the words you pray, it is your faith (trust) in Jesus Christ that saved you. It is your faith that caused you to call upon Jesus to forgive you of your sins and take you to heaven. God wants to save you more than you could ever want to be saved. If you were sincere, then you are now a born-again Christian. Thank God!

Salvation is very simple. We are sinners, and Jesus is the Saviour. You see friend, there is no religion involved here, ONLY Jesus. Salvation is NOT found in a religion, but in a Person---The Lord Jesus Christ.

May God bless you,

David J. Stewart

[Iowanian]

I'm a regular chuch goer....you're going to run people away from Church.

[Spott]

So David J. Stewart is Jesus? Or is he God? Too much gawd-damned reading involved to decipher WTF is going on.

[RJ]

Matthew 6 : 5-6 (King James Version)

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.


6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.



Well played.

[Believer]

I'm a regular chuch goer....you're going to run people away from Church.

its not about going to church. If people who go to church cant handle talk of Jesus Christ being Lord then they are going to church for the wrong reasons.

[Spott]

I go to church to pick up women.

[Believer]

So David J. Stewart is Jesus? Or is he God? Too much gawd-damned reading involved to decipher WTF is going on.

oh come on, it wont hurt your brain too much too read something.

David Stewart is an author who put a very good explanation together.
You dont need to be God to do that.

[Believer]

I go to church to pick up women.

well there you go. pick up women. have a fun life.

And then be seperated from God for eternity.

Just have your eyes open to the choices you make.

[Spott]

I'm already in hell. It's called being a Chiefs fan.

[Iowanian]

its not about going to church. If people who go to church cant handle talk of Jesus Christ being Lord then they are going to church for the wrong reasons.

Its not the material....its the delivery of your pitches that leaves a little to be desired.

Its no worse than the "converters" that knock on my door and want to talk about their version of religion while I'm trying to do something else.

Deeds go alot further than words.

[cdcox]

born of water and of the Spirit = Holy Baptism as the second birth has been the teaching of the Church since its beginning. Was it wrong all that time?

Only in the last few hundred years, and principally in America has it been interpreted born of water = born by your mother and born of the spirit = decision for Christ as two sepreate births.

[Iowanian]

This is rich. Didn't you just decide you were a religious nut a year or two ago? This is where I ponder posting something that will cause some confession time later.
its not about going to church. If people who go to church cant handle talk of Jesus Christ being Lord then they are going to church for the wrong reasons.

I don't think you act like an asspipe because of your beliefs.....I'm guessing that was ingrained in your character a long time before you memorized some passages.

[Believer]

born of water and of the Spirit = Holy Baptism as the second birth has been the teaching of the Church since its beginning. Was it wrong all that time?

Only in the last few hundred years, and principally in America has it been interpreted born of water = born by your mother and born of the spirit = decision for Christ as two sepreate births.

this is an old disagreement of interpretations between Catholics and Evangelicals and neither one of us will budge, im sure.

If you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Bible is the word of God then this is a big diversion.

[Believer]

Its not the material....its the delivery of your pitches that leaves a little to be desired.

Its no worse than the "converters" that knock on my door and want to talk about their version of religion while I'm trying to do something else.

Deeds go alot further than words.

well, i think you'd rather to skip over a post on website than actually have me over to your house, a practice i dont agree with myself.

this is not your personal space and property as your home is, and its a ridiculous comparison.

[Baby Lee]

As a Christian, where do you place Jesus Christ in your life? Just in the quiet places? Church on Sunday?
that has been the problem with most Christians, an unwillingness to do what the Bible commanded of us.
Must've missed the 'thou shalt annoy people on BBSs' commandment.

More importantly, must've missed how you managed to reconcile; all you gotta do is believe, and unwillingness to obey commandments is a problem.

I personally come from a 'faith without works is dead faith' background. But you appear to come from the 'just accept and it's a done deal' crowd, only you pull out adherence to commandment when it reinforces the point you're making at the moment.

[KurtCobain]

you ****ing sinners

[Iowanian]

So bver,
How long have you been so Superio....I mean, dedicated to your religion?

a year or two?

[Baby Lee]

By accepting that Jesus is the Son of God, and died for your sins, you have Salavation.
Which is very helpful when digesting fibrous foods.

[BWillie]

Religion is built by people, not by gods. There is not a god. Religion is utilized by homo sapiens to lessen the fear of death and to provide purpose and meaning to life. Religion makes humans feel special. This is why I don't have a problem with religion used in this context, the problem lies when people push their beliefs and kill each other because they believe they are the righteous ones. It is very bothersome when people try to push their religious beliefs on you. I was downtown the other night, and had a confrontation with a "party ends in hell guy". He kept badgering me about how I was going to hell because I was getting intoxicated and trying to screw dirty whores, so I got two chicks to make out in front of me, boy was he pissed.

Here's the thing, if you want to use religion to make yourself feel special and warm inside, by all means do it. If you want to use religion to give your life meaning and to offer values and guidelines that you believe makes you a better person then by all means do that. But stop freaking preaching to me about this BS.

This is the bottom line. You are not special. You are particles of matter. The reason you "think" and "feel" is because of electrical impulses in your brain, that is all. There is one purpose in life, and that is for energy to flow from one area of greater concentration to an area of lesser concentration. This is why the universe is expanding. The goal of all matter and energy is to reach the heat death of the universe. After the big bang, the universe will continue to expand until all energy has been evenly dispersed. At this time of the heat death of the universe, nothing will ever occur again. Nothing will ever move again. Life will not exist. This is the goal of life itself. In fact, you do not even have free will. Everything you do can be solved in a long complicated equation if enough information was present. What I am doing at this instant, the energy I am using and releasing is just a manner to use up all the free energy in the universe. It was predetermined trillions of years ago and there is nothing I can do about it. I do not have control of my actions albeit I may think I do. That is life, it doesn't make you feel all special inside does it? Well, that is why human's reject it and seek religion in it's absense. You can't argue with Physics. You may say, oh that is a Theory, ya well, Gravity is a theory too. Go jump off of a mountain, see if you hit the ground or not.

[Bowser]

So bver,
How long have you been so Superio....I mean, dedicated to your religion?

a year or two?

Is he a Charger fan?

[Believer]

Must've missed the 'thou shalt annoy people on BBSs' commandment.

More importantly, must've missed how you managed to reconcile; all you gotta do is believe, and unwillingness to obey commandments is a problem.

I personally come from a 'faith without works is dead faith' background. But you appear to come from the 'just accept and it's a done deal' crowd, only you pull out adherence to commandment when it reinforces the point you're making at the moment.

wow, what a leap!

when did I say works dont count?

Faith is what bring us Justification. Because we have Salvation, we then do the good works. But its not the works that bring the Salvation.

Read Romans. We are released from the Law of Sin by our acceptance of Christ. We are not to Sin, but we are no longer condemned by it.

[SCChief]

Matthew 6 : 5-6 (King James Version)

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.


6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Far be it from me to agree with Taco... but I agree.

Believer, how do you feel about this? Yes, we are to witness, through word and through deed. But there is danger inherent in assuming moral superiority. We are all sinners. When you are so brazen, you appear to be arguing from a position of assumed superiority. Not only does it not serve His purpose (by alienating everyone reading the message, believers and non-believers alike), but it is arrogant.

[Sully]

How about this, instead of remaining mysterious about what you believe, how about you tell me what Jesus is to you?
What was his role in the Bible, any version you would like?

Don't get pissy with me.
You brought it up. If you are uncomfortable with answering questions concerning your faith, then don't post misleadingly titled threads on the board.

You opened yourself up to questions, so answer them.


Now...

Was Mary a virgin?

[Eleazar]

I love when we have these anti-heroes on BBSs, doing more to drive people away than anything else.

Maybe Believer is a faux character, and someone is presenting a caricature. Doing a masterful job of it...

[RNR]

No, I have faith in Jesus, not Trent Green or any other football player.
Ok I got here late, so this is about football? You guys singed Jesus!!! man if Al isnt giving me enough trouble you guys sign Jesus!!! man my team is really screwed now! That has to put you guys over the cap! what are the numbers? huge signing bonus I'm sure! Man this sucks!

[Sully]

Are you trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?

[Spott]

Ok I got here late, so this is about football? You guys singed Jesus!!! man if Al isnt giving me enough trouble you guys sign Jesus!!! man my team is really screwed now! That has to put you guys over the cap! what are the numbers? huge signing bonus I'm sure! Man this sucks!


Don't worry too much. We only brought him in to replace Lawrence Tynes.

[RNR]

Don't worry too much. We only brought him in to replace Lawrence Tynes.
Oh sure thats how it starts! next thing you know he is laying healing hands on everyone! Man this sucks!

[Spott]

Oh sure thats how it starts! next thing you know he is laying healing hands on everyone! Man this sucks!


Don't worry, even Jesus would be jinxed if he played for the Chiefs.

[Simply Red]

This thread is showing signs of having another gear, or perhaps; found its burst.

[Spott]

Oh sure thats how it starts! next thing you know he is laying healing hands on everyone! Man this sucks!

BTW, I heard we are negotiating with Tom Cruise. Once we get him, he will be unstoppable.

[RNR]

BTW, I heard we are negotiating with Tom Cruise. Once we get him, he will be unstoppable.
No way you guys fit that under the cap! only Denver can pull that off!

[El Jefe]

Believer, and no man cometh unto the father but by me". That is a very good passage of scripture. I believe it with my whole heart, are you just posting that to be stupid.

[JohninGpt]

BTW, I heard we are negotiating with Tom Cruise. Once we get him, he will be unstoppable.
Sure we could have god (Tom's the one with the little g not the big G) on our side, but he has something cooking with Dan Snyder. It may take quite a few souls to lure him away.

[Sully]

How many souls are we under the cap?
Keep in mind, the cap is going up this offseason

[JohninGpt]

How many souls are we under the cap?
Keep in mind, the cap is going up this offseason
I don't know, but dealing with Snyder may be a deal with the :evil:.

[Bwana]

Ok I got here late, so this is about football? You guys singed Jesus!!! man if Al isnt giving me enough trouble you guys sign Jesus!!! man my team is really screwed now! That has to put you guys over the cap! what are the numbers? huge signing bonus I'm sure! Man this sucks!
Heh! Nice:LOL:

[RJ]

Ok I got here late, so this is about football? You guys singed Jesus!!! man if Al isnt giving me enough trouble you guys sign Jesus!!! man my team is really screwed now! That has to put you guys over the cap! what are the numbers? huge signing bonus I'm sure! Man this sucks!



Sure, it's great we signed Jesus but if we don't get a deep threat receiver it won't matter, we'll just burn Him out. Despite His great onfield talents and much-needed clubouse presence, if all we get is a steady diet of Jesus left, Jesus right, Jesus up the middle the defenses will just put 8 in the box and we're screwed. Without some imaginative play calling and a top 5 D this is nothing more than a way for Carl to keep the seats filled. It's a big name signing but I don't see how it gets us to the SB unless he's going to play all 22 positions and kick.

[Phobia]

You've employed your method long enough to know if it's effective or not. I'm curious, had much success? Had anybody come to church with you? Had anybody inquire about more information?
I think he may have missed my post. Will you please answer these questions?

[Sully]

Sure, it's great we signed Jesus but if we don't get a deep threat receiver it won't matter, we'll just burn Him out. Despite His great onfield talents and much-needed clubouse presence, if all we get is a steady diet of Jesus left, Jesus right, Jesus up the middle the defenses will just put 8 in the box and we're screwed. Without some imaginative play calling and a top 5 D this is nothing more than a way for Carl to keep the seats filled. It's a big name signing but I don't see how it gets us to the SB unless he's going to play all 22 positions and kick.

I have a feeling that unlike Grbac, Jesus CAN throw it and catch it.

[JohninGpt]

...but if we don't get a deep throat receiver...
Check the porn and pancakes thread, something may be available.

[RNR]

Sure, it's great we signed Jesus but if we don't get a deep threat receiver it won't matter, we'll just burn Him out. Despite His great onfield talents and much-needed clubouse presence, if all we get is a steady diet of Jesus left, Jesus right, Jesus up the middle the defenses will just put 8 in the box and we're screwed. Without some imaginative play calling and a top 5 D this is nothing more than a way for Carl to keep the seats filled. It's a big name signing but I don't see how it gets us to the SB unless he's going to play all 22 positions and kick.
Oh sure he floods the field our DBs tread water while Jesus walks into endzone untouched! Man this is bullshit!

[RJ]

Oh sure he floods the field our DBs tread water while Jesus walks into endzone untouched! Man this is bullshit!



Yeah, maybe, but what about when it's 3rd and 10 and they throw a 7 YARD sideline pass to Jesus?? I mean, how smart do you have to be? Throw the ball 10 yards!! It's Jesus, for God's sake! Get him the ball past the marker......he's gonna catch it, right? But you just know that's what will happen.

One good thing about having Jesus on your team, though, is that if he fumbles he can turn that one football into like a thousand footballs, which really confuses the other team and the refs.

[Believer]

Far be it from me to agree with Taco... but I agree.

Believer, how do you feel about this? Yes, we are to witness, through word and through deed. But there is danger inherent in assuming moral superiority. We are all sinners. When you are so brazen, you appear to be arguing from a position of assumed superiority. Not only does it not serve His purpose (by alienating everyone reading the message, believers and non-believers alike), but it is arrogant.

Not at all. I agree, we are all sinners. I have sin as well. All people do.
And we are condemned by it. But Jesus sacrifice paid the price of our sin. Our Salvation is not by being better, but is by accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

there is no superiority by me or any other Christian. The superior is Gods

[Believer]

Believer, and no man cometh unto the father but by me". That is a very good passage of scripture. I believe it with my whole heart, are you just posting that to be stupid.


what?? is who posting what?

are you saying you believe that scripture? or you dont?

[Believer]

I think he may have missed my post. Will you please answer these questions?

I have no idea. Neither do you. Its not about getting people to contact me about coming to my church.

The truth isnt about numbers. How many souls did Job save?

[Believer]

Don't get pissy with me.
You brought it up. If you are uncomfortable with answering questions concerning your faith, then don't post misleadingly titled threads on the board.

You opened yourself up to questions, so answer them.


Now...

Was Mary a virgin?

Yes, I do believe she was. What do you think about the virginity of Mary?

[Simplex3]

For the love of God, don't you have church in the morning?

[Phobia]

I have no idea. Neither do you. Its not about getting people to contact me about coming to my church.

The truth isnt about numbers. How many souls did Job save?

I'm not asking you to boast, I'm simply wondering how effective your ministry is. If you're not saving souls, taking them to church, or at least getting inquiries then maybe you could entertain a different approach?

I've been talking about my faith on this board for less than 6 months and have had multiple inquiries, general comments, and have taken 8 people I met directly (and indirectly) on this site to my church with me with 2 more scheduled to attend next month. I've been aggressive with one person because I have a special burden for him and time is of the essence. With that exception, I've been pretty laid back with everybody else.

I'm not saying that to boast. I'm suggesting that maybe your methods are flawed. I don't have all the answers but I know that I'm a whole lot less abrassive than you are.

[BWillie]

Believer has yet to respond to my logic as of yet.

[ChiefaRoo]

This thread has lost its burst. It wanted to shift gears but then someone ground the stick trying to shift from 4th to 5th.

[Believer]

Believer has yet to respond to my logic as of yet.
You mean your wanting to get intoxicated and to "screw whores"?

Sorry if I dont feel a need to consider your intellectual thoughts on the matter.

[BWillie]

You mean your wanting to get intoxicated and to "screw whores"?

Sorry if I dont feel a need to consider your intellectual thoughts on the matter.

Well, when you want to, let me know. I'll be more than happy to speak to you about physics. While you are at Church tomorrow. I will be sleeping in, waking up at about noon and enjoying the good life.

[Ultra Peanut]

Yes, I do believe she was. What do you think about the virginity of Mary?She was a dirty, dirty whore!

[HMc]

Christianity never had any burst.

[RedThat]

No doubt this is a very touchy subject.

I have nothing against it. I think religion is a great subject. But I do find it to be a controversial topic.

I don't like when I see people post ignorant stuff about Christ on here. Im referring to people who post pictures about Jesus in an ignorant way. That stuff is not funny. And its downright ignorant. jmo

[Phobia]

No doubt this is a very touchy subject.

I have nothing against it. I think religion is a great subject. But I do find it to be a controversial topic.

I don't like when I see people post ignorant stuff about Christ on here. Im referring to people who post pictures about Jesus in an ignorant way. That stuff is not funny. And its downright ignorant. jmo

I agree. Most of these guys are decent, respectable people. I think they're just doing it to push Believer's buttons, not to disparage Christ.

[Ultra Peanut]

I don't like when I see people post ignorant stuff about Christ on here. Im referring to people who post pictures about Jesus in an ignorant way. That stuff is not funny. And its downright ignorant. jmoI hope you're not talking about me. Jesus is my co-pilot.

http://imgred.com/http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f354/Erazzmatazz/Macros/annoyingjesus038ly-1.jpg

[Bugeater]

Hmmm....I'm not in any condition to catch up on this thread right now, but judging from Believer's rep things haven't gone well for him.

[Halfcan]

This has been a great site since the playoff game.

Since everything else posted here has been non-football related I might as well say it:

Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior. He is the way, the truth, and the life.


Now watch the complaints "This doesnt have anything to do with football!!!!"

hahaha

How can you Mock God?

[Halfcan]

You are going to get a lightning bolt up your ass.

[RedThat]

If God is so good, how could God send people to hell?

hmmmm....I think that is a decent question, but, imo, it sounds like you're placing the blame on God, which is wrong.

I think a better question to ask, would be, why did God create the earth and all living things upon the earth, and allow it to be placed into the hands of the wicked one? Satan.

But either way, I think we're both wrong, you know why? because we are questioning Gods wisdom.

*I will comment, mind you, these are my opinions and beliefs, I think LIFE itself is a true testament of "will". What I mean by that is, DO YOU REALLY WANT THE HOLY SPIRIT TO DWELL IN YOUR HEART, AND TO ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR! OR, WILL YOU CONDEMN THAT, AND DEFEAT YOURSELF BY FALLING INTO THE TRAP OF SIN?

Life is a challenge, you know why? because everyday that goes by, we see a lot of EVIL in our society. As a matter of fact, we are surrounded by it everywhere. You see it with your own eyes. Here is an example of what im talking about, this is absolutely true, there are 2 driving forces in this world, Money, and sex. You see this. Everyday. Are these evil? absolutely. Money is a great example, you need it to survive. Its just a matter of you asking yourself, do I need money to survive? To just get by? Or, do I need it to be secure? To make it feel good about myself?
Sad enough, a lot of people would say, I need it to be secure, to make it feel good about myself. So what happens? people become greedy from it. They get rich.

How do rich people get rich? It's simple, by oppressing the poor. Making slaves from the poor to satisfy their own greed. People kill, steal for money, sell their bodies for sex to make a buck. You see the temptation money does for some people? There is no question, money creates evil thoughts and acts in people. It's proven.

And how about sex? Isn't that supposed to be for those who get married? For the one you love? Instead, we have people using each other for sexual purposes. For entertainment. Why? because it's a pleasurable thing for a lot of people. I think that can also be looked upon as greed. Because it's using someone for pleasure, self satisfaction. Is that right? no. It's lust, and adultery. It's like there is no feeling to that, because sex is supposed to have a meaning. I think God created it to reserve it for that special one in your life, the one you will love and be with to make "one". Sex imo, is also here to make human beings descend. We have choices, do we keep ourselves pure and clean(virgins) and savour ourselves for that special one? Or do we go around having sex with different people one by one? See. Sex can show its good form or evil form? it's a matter of choosing.

You see all this going on in our society. We are trapped by it. Daily. And I think that itself, alters our state of mind somewhat. How many times do we as human beings share evil thoughts? How many times do we think of doing wrong, then do it? Lots. And you know something? It's called tempatition. I think we are being tempted to do wrong. Evil is right by our doorstep. It digs right into the core of our lives. That is the problem. It's just a matter of us doing it or not? That is where satan comes in. Imo, you do right, you better your chances of allowing the holy spirit to dwell in your heart and to worship the Lord. Or, you do wicked, and worship satan?

I think satan and his cast of demons are on the earth right now. I believe in that. We have our free will. Imo, God gave us that. It's true because we are entitled to our own freedom of choices in this so called life. The only problem is, satan knows that. That is why there is wrong. To tempt us to do it. And imo, that is why you see we have sooo many choices to do things on earth, either in a form of righteousness or evil? satan just adds evil here on earth. That is why I think there is a domination of wickedness going on in our world, to better our chances to do evil. To take us away from God. It's to show you have a choice, to do what is righteous, or to do what is wrong(evil).

Life has to have its purpose, there has to be some sort of significance or meaning to it? I think it's pointless to just live, and then die. If thats the case, then why are we here? I believe in such a thing called "life everlasting". To me, that is, giving yourself to the Lord, placing your trust in him, and doing what is righteous and just. Obeying his Laws and commands. Believing in Christ, and accepting him as our saviour. We do these things, imo, we will be rewarded with an everlasting life.

Or, you can give yourself to evil, become a hopeless sinner, sell yourself to the devil, and be rewarded with death. We have choices, this is why I believe LIFE is a true testament of "will". How bad do you really want God in your heart? no matter of all the evil surroundings in this world, how bad do you really want God to be in your heart?

Imo, I dont think its in the LORDS will to send people to hell. If anything, he is giving us a chance to repent from evil, and to do what is righteous and just, and to serve him, obey him with almight. that way we can have an everlasting life. Or like I said earlier, we can just give in to evil, and sell ourselves to satan? Thats what i mean by testament of "will". To really see what you want, and who you want, and how bad. Life is a test.


*I believe everything, and anything in life starts and ends with God

[Halfcan]

Can you give me the cliff notes version of that post Red Bull?

[luv]

Can you give me the cliff notes version of that post Red Bull?
Cliff notes: God doesn't send people to hell. We choose to go.

[RedThat]

Religion is built by people, not by gods. There is not a god.

Ok. I got some questions for you. How do you know there is not a god?

How do you know that? How do you go abouts in explaining how this earth is so well perfectly shaped, absolutely perfect, and casts upon nothing? How? That can't be an accident. I, myself am absolutely intrigued by that! Probably, the BEST scientests in the world can't even figure that out?

There is a God. No way can you have all these planets so perfect and casted upon nothing. It's not just the Earth, you have the whole solar system and the universe. Everything. SO PERFECT! The sun, the moon, the stars, people, who knows? maybe aliens, or other forms of life on other planets?

*Creations have to start from somewhere? I believe there is a God. That is my choice. I think it all started from somewhere?

I know a creation starts from something? That is common sense. Take a tree for example, it is created because you planted a seed, right?

Well, lets say at one time there was no universe? No planets? No forms of existing life? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Lets say, just saying. Nothing was here? Can absolutely nothing create something? No. I believe there is a God. Its all starts with God.

[Ultra Peanut]

I think a better question to ask, would be, why did God create the earth and all living things upon the earth, and allow it to be placed into the hands of the wicked one? Satan.Exactly. God is all-powerful, yet he insists on playing some ridiculous game that has an apparent end result of billions of souls suffering for eternity without his presence.

[Bwana]

You mean your wanting to get intoxicated and to "screw whores"?

Sorry if I dont feel a need to consider your intellectual thoughts on the matter.

[Baby Lee]

BTW, I heard we are negotiating with Tom Cruise. Once we get him, he will be unstoppable.
Does Tom wear Dante's uniform, or are the pants too long?

[Believer]

I'm not asking you to boast, I'm simply wondering how effective your ministry is. If you're not saving souls, taking them to church, or at least getting inquiries then maybe you could entertain a different approach?

I've been talking about my faith on this board for less than 6 months and have had multiple inquiries, general comments, and have taken 8 people I met directly (and indirectly) on this site to my church with me with 2 more scheduled to attend next month. I've been aggressive with one person because I have a special burden for him and time is of the essence. With that exception, I've been pretty laid back with everybody else.

I'm not saying that to boast. I'm suggesting that maybe your methods are flawed. I don't have all the answers but I know that I'm a whole lot less abrassive than you are.

So me coming here and saying Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior bothers you because you see it as competition or something?
I still have no idea you would have a problem with such a proclamation.

look, im glad you have brought people to church with you. I have no idea what kind of church it is. All I know is you've cut me down for my efforts, you've assumed this is all I do in my walk, and instead of agreeing that Jesus is Lord, you've helped to attack that position.

Im not impressed at the methods or teaching ive read from you.

[Believer]

I agree. Most of these guys are decent, respectable people. I think they're just doing it to push Believer's buttons, not to disparage Christ.

so its ok for disrespectful images of Jesus to be posted in order to go after a guy proclaiming the Lordship of Christ. That is decent in your mind.
You would defend that before defending the name of Jesus Christ.

You are a prime example that some of Jesus Christs biggest enemies are in the church.

[Eleazar]

Hmm. Believer seems to dislike Phobia...

[Jenson71]

Hmm. Believer seems to dislike Phobia...

No, it's Jesus that dislikes Phobia, Cochise.

[luv]

Hmm. Believer seems to dislike Phobia...
:hmmm:

[Believer]

Hmm. Believer seems to dislike Phobia...

I dont know him enough to like or dislike him, but I dislike what he's doing here. Saying he's a Christian and going after someone who proclaims Jesus as Lord and defending people who post anti-Jesus images as "decent".

thats not the kind of Christian I would want to count on.

Christians who choose the world over their brothers and sisters In Christ are like wolves in sheeps clothing.

[SPchief]

I dont know him enough to like or dislike him, but I dislike what he's doing here. Saying he's a Christian and going after someone who proclaims Jesus as Lord and defending people who post anti-Jesus images as "decent".

thats not the kind of Christian I would want to count on.

Christians who choose the world over their brothers and sisters In Christ are like wolves in sheeps clothing.


I have a feeling that believer is going to be outed tonight.

[|Zach|]

I dont know him enough to like or dislike him, but I dislike what he's doing here. Saying he's a Christian and going after someone who proclaims Jesus as Lord and defending people who post anti-Jesus images as "decent".

thats not the kind of Christian I would want to count on.

Christians who choose the world over their brothers and sisters In Christ are like wolves in sheeps clothing.
Ha, separating yourself and putting yourself above those you deem not Christian like.

I am trying to think of something more unChristian.

[Believer]

Ha, separating yourself and putting yourself above those are you deem not Christian like.

I am trying to think of something more unChristian.

how about defending anti-Jesus pictures and cartoons?

[Jenson71]

how about defending anti-Jesus pictures and cartoons?

Hey Believer, I'm just trying to get an honest reponse here. My post has no hidden harm in it. Here it is:

What readings and gospel did you hear today at mass?

[|Zach|]

I have a feeling that believer is going to be outed tonight.
Funny you mention that.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3624182&postcount=122

[|Zach|]

how about defending anti-Jesus pictures and cartoons?
Example?

[Believer]

Funny you mention that.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3624182&postcount=122

yeah, and where exactly did that go? nowhere.

[|Zach|]

While Believer was on a pedestal Jesus went to the bars...he went to the brothels. Trying to spread his message to people who were obviously in need of it.

But Believer is above that.

[Eleazar]

ROFL Yes.... several different active IDs this time. At least two, maybe three or more.

[Believer]

Hey Believer, I'm just trying to get an honest reponse here. My post has no hidden harm in it. Here it is:

What readings and gospel did you hear today at mass?

it was on these parables:
Luke 15
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
1Now the tax collectors and "sinners" were all gathering around to hear him. 2But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them."

3Then Jesus told them this parable: 4"Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.' 7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

The Parable of the Lost Coin
8"Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins[a] and loses one. Does she not light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.' 10In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

The Parable of the Lost Son
11Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. 12The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them.

13"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' 20So he got up and went to his father.
"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.[b]'

22"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. 24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

25"Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27'Your brother has come,' he replied, 'and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'

28"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'

31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "

[Believer]

While Believer was on a pedestal Jesus went to the bars...he went to the brothels. Trying to spread his message to people who were obviously in need of it.

But Believer is above that.

how would you know where I go to witness?

besides, do you think this is a higher level than those places? Are you judging people in bars or brothels and thinking you are any better?

now who is being judgemental and arrogant.

[Believer]

Example?

read the threads yourself.

[Jenson71]

it was on these parables:

So you have three different readings, or does the preacher just talk about them the same time?

[|Zach|]

read the threads yourself.
I didn't think you had any proof.

[Believer]

So you have three different readings, or does the preacher just talk about them the same time?

what point are you trying to make? You asked what the sermon was on and I told you, it was about those three parables.

[Smed1065]

Ok. I got some questions for you. How do you know there is not a god?

How do you know that? How do you go abouts in explaining how this earth is so well perfectly shaped, absolutely perfect, and casts upon nothing? How? That can't be an accident. I, myself am absolutely intrigued by that! Probably, the BEST scientests in the world can't even figure that out?

There is a God. No way can you have all these planets so perfect and casted upon nothing. It's not just the Earth, you have the whole solar system and the universe. Everything. SO PERFECT! The sun, the moon, the stars, people, who knows? maybe aliens, or other forms of life on other planets?

*Creations have to start from somewhere? I believe there is a God. That is my choice. I think it all started from somewhere?

I know a creation starts from something? That is common sense. Take a tree for example, it is created because you planted a seed, right?

Well, lets say at one time there was no universe? No planets? No forms of existing life? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Lets say, just saying. Nothing was here? Can absolutely nothing create something? No. I believe there is a God. Its all starts with God.

I might get blasted but I can ask the same type question, who created God?

I am not saying I am right or you are wrong but it is in the same venue as your question.

Which came first?

The chicken or the egg?

I actually believe it is more a state of heart, mind and conscious. The biggest problem I have with religion is the body count and persecution of people because you are suppose to have free will.

Can all the religions be right?

Does that mean only 1 religion is right?

Are the other religions going to hell because they believed but chose the wrong map for guidance or worshiping because of family influence?

Choosing to worship the wrong God?

Thats why I believe it is more than just a religion. It is a combination of intent and actions. IMO.

Guess we can move this thread now...
:hmmm:

[Jenson71]

what point are you trying to make? You asked what the sermon was on and I told you, it was about those three parables.

Whoa boy, settle down. I told you, I have no hidden agenda. I didn't ask you what the sermon was on. I asked what the readings and gospel that you had today were. I'm Catholic, we do things differently (better).

[Believer]

I didn't think you had any proof.

hmmmm, how about post #149 where he calls them decent and respectable people. Post #150 is a nice example of the decent and respectable people.

[Believer]

Whoa boy, settle down. I told you, I have no hidden agenda. I didn't ask you what the sermon was on. I asked what the readings and gospel that you had today were. I'm Catholic, we do things differently (better).

i have no clue what you are still getting at.

semantics. sermon. reading. gospel. It was regarding using these readings to show how we need to reach out to the lost.

what was your "reading" and "gospel" on?

[|Zach|]

hmmmm, how about post #149 where he calls them decent and respectable people. Post #150 is a nice example of the decent and respectable people.
So you get angry when people put blanket statements on you saying we don't really know what you do or who you are offline but you can do the same thing to others?

You can better with every single post.

[DaFace]

What I think is interesting is that I can think of at least four "prayer request" threads that have come through the Planet in the past few months. Strangely, Believer hasn't posted in a single one of them. :hmmm:

[|Zach|]

What I think is interesting is that I can think of at least four "prayer request" threads that have come through the Planet in the past few months. Strangely, Believer hasn't posted in a single one of them.
Of course not. Believer is to religion what Milli Vanilli is too music.

A total fake.

[Believer]

So you get angry when people put blanket statements on you saying we don't really know what you do or who you are offline but you can do the same thing to others?

You can better with every single post.

the man defended the people posting anti-Jesus images. thats pretty clear cut.
any Christian knows you dont disrespect the Lord.

[SPchief]

What I think is interesting is that I can think of at least four "prayer request" threads that have come through the Planet in the past few months. Strangely, Believer hasn't posted in a single one of them. :hmmm:


He's to busy spreading the gospel of God. Duh

[|Zach|]

the man defended the people posting anti-Jesus images. thats pretty clear cut.
any Christian knows you dont disrespect the Lord.
The man defended that Psicosis cartoon before it was posted.

Phil is incredible.

[Believer]

Of course not. Believer is to religion what Milli Vanilli is too music.

A total fake.

right, like if i posted on a prayer request it wouldnt turn it into a free-for-all. That is a situation I purposely avoided.
people on this site have shown themselves to be disrespectful enough that they would trash someones prayer request thread just to attack me and i didnt want to risk that out of concern for the thread starter.

[Believer]

The man defended that Psicosis cartoon before it was posted.

Phil is incredible.

duh! i was using that as an example of the type of garbage that gets posted here.

with that, goodnight.

[|Zach|]

right, like if i posted on a prayer request it wouldnt turn it into a free-for-all. That is a situation I purposely avoided.
people on this site have shown themselves to be disrespectful enough that they would trash someones prayer request thread just to attack me and i didnt want to risk that out of concern for the thread starter.
Other people post prayer requests and it isn't a free for all....in the least. It happens all the time.

Maybe that "its not the message but messenger" thing has some validity too it?

[Jenson71]

i have no clue what you are still getting at.

semantics. sermon. reading. gospel. It was regarding using these readings to show how we need to reach out to the lost.

what was your "reading" and "gospel" on?

We have two readings. These are usually Paul's letters. Then we have a reading from the Gospel. After the Gospel, the priest gives his homily.

[Bugeater]

right, like if i posted on a prayer request it wouldnt turn it into a free-for-all. That is a situation I purposely avoided.
people on this site have shown themselves to be disrespectful enough that they would trash someones prayer request thread just to attack me and i didnt want to risk that out of concern for the thread starter.
:rolleyes:

[SPchief]

right, like if i posted on a prayer request it wouldnt turn it into a free-for-all. That is a situation I purposely avoided.
people on this site have shown themselves to be disrespectful enough that they would trash someones prayer request thread just to attack me and i didnt want to risk that out of concern for the thread starter.


I'm pretty sure you are wrong about this tom

[Believer]

Other people post prayer requests and it isn't a free for all....in the least. It happens all the time.

Maybe that "its not the message but messenger" thing has some validity too it?

it has validity in that people do indeed have issues with me, thats more about them than it is about me.

Im not concerned with being popular, im concerned with speaking the truth.

Jesus and His disciples were not popular. they were killed in a grisly way.
too many Christians are about "fitting in".

If i posted on a prayer thread people would be so busy taking pot shots it would ruin the tone of the thread.

[Jenson71]

what point are you trying to make? You asked what the sermon was on and I told you, it was about those three parables.

By the way, you're a terrifically pleasant person to talk to. Thanks.

[Believer]

By the way, you're a terrifically pleasant person to talk to. Thanks.

no, thank YOU.

[Jenson71]

no, thank YOU.

For what?

[|Zach|]

it has validity in that people do indeed have issues with me, thats more about them than it is about me.

Im not concerned with being popular, im concerned with speaking the truth.

Jesus and His disciples were not popular. they were killed in a grisly way.
too many Christians are about "fitting in".

If i posted on a prayer thread people would be so busy taking pot shots it would ruin the tone of the thread.
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[luv]

If i posted on a prayer thread people would be so busy taking pot shots it would ruin the tone of the thread.
I think people have more respect for others than you give them credit for. Lack of faith in the charity of others?

[Simply Red]

http://i54.tinypic.com/2pqq4pt.gif

[Bowser]

Hey, a Tom account that's not banned!

[listopencil]

lessee,

no, that would be symbolism.



Well fuck that then. I was only doing the communion thing because I thought I was getting away with cannibalism.

[CrazyPhuD]

Looks like it's time to make this a football thread!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/may/22/sir-alex-ferguson-manchester-united-barcelona

Sir Alex Ferguson sets his sights on European domination for United
Manchester United's record 19th league title is old news – it is in Europe the manager plays out his most romantic visions

Paul Hayward
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 22 May 2011 00.07 BST

Assuming his path to the prime minister's job had been blocked by a great statesman, the cabinet post Sir Alex Ferguson the politician would have wanted is foreign secretary. With his love of travel, French wine and American history, Manchester United's manager has always been outward looking, as befits a man raised around the docksides of Govan, from where the big ships set off on their adventures.

United's 19th league title passed into the records last weekend and is already old news. Domestic power relocated from Anfield to Old Trafford and then attention shifted to an even grander objective. The annexation of English football was always the most pressing concern for Ferguson in his daily working life but Europe is where he plays out his most romantic visions.

The continent is where he attends Uefa coaching seminars and shares ideas with his fellow grandees from France, Germany, Italy and Spain; Europe is where he turns up for press conferences and is not deterred by the babble of voices he does not recognise. The Champions League is the clearest measure of his ambition to be regarded as a grand old man of the world game and not only someone who can regularly put one over on Liverpool or Chelsea.

So now the personal opportunity presents itself to draw level with Bob Paisley, the only manager to win three European Cups, with Liverpool, in 1977, 1978 and 1981. Another, more distant, hope would be to bring United (who now have three) level with Liverpool on five. Victory over Barcelona on Saturday night and one more win before he stops would satisfy every possible retirement wish.

The boy who crept into Hampden Park to see Real Madrid extinguish Eintracht Frankfurt 7-3 in the classic European Cup final of 1960 still has the light of that day in his eyes. Ferguson would concur with his old friend, the late Sir Bobby Robson, who said: "The Champions League is really an extension of international football. In Europe the football feels better, smells better, stretches the mental faculties more.

"In the Premier League most opponents start out with faults and fallibilities that will reveal themselves over the 90 minutes. A manager is paid to spot and expose those frailties. In Europe – in the Champions League – you are testing yourselves against the best teams in each league. There is no soft underbelly."

Finding points of weakness in the world's best club side is Ferguson's final challenge in the year of his 12th Premier League conquest. On Saturday at Wembley, United will try to reverse the script of Rome 2009, when a side who finished with Cristiano Ronaldo, Wayne Rooney, Carlos Tevez and Dimitar Berbatov all on the pitch conceded a 10th minute goal to Samuel Eto'o and a second to Lionel Messi with 20 minutes left. Like United, Barcelona, for whom Messi is now a force of nature, won their first European title at the home of English football.

By a peculiar twist Ferguson's overseas expeditions often feature a Spanish dimension. His first conquest outside these isles came with Aberdeen's 1983 European Cup Winners' Cup win over Real Madrid. Twenty years ago, he broke his duck with United on the continent against Johan Cruyff's Barcelona, with a 2-1 victory in the same, now defunct, competition.

In that match in Rotterdam, Ferguson fielded 10 British starters plus an Irishman, Denis Irwin, and packed his bench with five English replacements. Mike Phelan, his assistant coach, was among those who went home wearing medals. "It was a major step forward," Ferguson says. "Lee Sharpe was coming through, so was Giggsy [Ryan Giggs]. We had Sparky [Mark Hughes] and Choccy [Brian McClair], [Paul] Ince and [Bryan] Robson and, soon after, we bought Paul Parker, Andrei Kanchelskis and Peter Schmeichel. Those were fundamental purchases that gave us a really strong group."

Eight years later in Barcelona, where United beat Bayern Munich with two goals in stoppage time to bring Ferguson the first of his two European Cups, Schmeichel (Denmark) Jaap Stam (Netherlands) and Ronny Johnsen (Norway) were the central rearguard in a semi-homegrown team that made European champions of David Beckham, Giggs, Gary Neville and Nicky Butt.

Cosmopolitanism then swept the club, from Juan Sebastián Verón through to Ronaldo, Edwin van der Sar, Nemanja Vidic, Patrice Evra, Tevez, Berbatov and now Javier Hernández, the Mexican forward who best exemplifies the club's new policy of spotting world-class talent under the age of 23 and feeding it through the university of Carrington.

Paisley, who spent 44 years at Anfield as player, physio, coach and manager, won his three European Cups in a four-year period with a core of players. Ray Clemence, Phil Neal, Phil Thompson, Ray Kennedy and Terry McDermott played in all three winning teams. Alan Hansen, Graeme Souness, Jimmy Case, Kenny Dalglish and Emlyn Hughes collected two of the three medals.

Ferguson's span would be 1999-2011 – 12 years – with three distinct teams: at the start of that period, 2008 (against Chelsea in Moscow) and next weekend. By the time he crossed the Rubicon at Camp Nou with the late assistance of Teddy Sheringham and Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, Ferguson had just won his eighth league title as a manager: three with Aberdeen and five with United.

It was in Barcelona that he delivered his most rousing oration, telling his players at half-time, after Bayern Munich's sixth-minute goal: "At the end of this game, the European Cup will be only six feet away from you and you'll not even be able to touch it if we lose. And for many of you that will be the closest you will ever get. Don't you dare come back in here without giving your all."

From that day United acquired a modern European grounding that permitted an escape from the shadow of 1968, Munich and the Busby Babes, a level of attainment Ferguson's teams could not claim to have matched. Even in the years of near misses and the agonising 2002 semi-final defeat to Bayer Leverkusen, 1999 sustained the evolution from 4-4-2 to a more tactically varied and multinational approach.

Before the Schalke semi-final, Ferguson said: "This is where we should be. The expectation has always been high with regard to the European scene and you do get envious of other clubs' great record in Europe. We are trying to gain parity with that. You look at Real Madrid, Milan, Bayern Munich, Ajax and Liverpool. We really need to progress quickly to get to that level and the present group have enough experience in Europe now."

In Rome two years ago, Ferguson accused his players of stopping to watch the beautiful Barcelona passing carousel. There will be no popcorn this time. Alan Shearer says: "What this team has is that they know how to win a game. It doesn't necessarily have to be pretty. That's been the difference between them and Chelsea and Arsenal. When United haven't played well they've still won games and dug them out. I think Saturday's game will be tight. Really tight."

"The Manchester United of 1999 had talent by the bundle but there was nothing about them that I admired or valued more than their team spirit," Ferguson wrote in his memoirs, connecting then and now. London may be the venue, but Europe is his milieu.

[Bugeater]

So this did end up being another Tom Cash account?

[LiveSteam]

Praise the Lord/GO BIG RED
I walk threw the valley of death. I will/ GO BIG RED
Now I lay me down to sleep I pray the lord/GO BIG RED
Jesus loves me this I know for the / GO BIG RED
Vengeance is mine sayeth the/GO BIG RED
I will cast down upon thee, with fire & HUSKER POWER

[factortobe]

how about them chiefs they are by far the best nfl team ever!!!

[Ugly Duck]

If you are saying you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and have accepted him in your life, you are indeed a Christian.

http://media.adamdodson.org/var/resizes/Religion/christianity.jpg

[Simply Red]

how about them chiefs they are by far the best nfl team ever!!!

believer?

[beach tribe]

it has validity in that people do indeed have issues with me, thats more about them than it is about me.

Im not concerned with being popular, im concerned with speaking the truth.

Jesus and His disciples were not popular. they were killed in a grisly way.
too many Christians are about "fitting in".

If i posted on a prayer thread people would be so busy taking pot shots it would ruin the tone of the thread.

Dude, Bullshit.

You've been reading the responses to rapture threads about some whacko that claimed today was the end of ****ing days, and it got your radical ass so pissed off, that you confused this place with the type filled with people who would piss on a prayer request. There's probably a lot that might even say one just in case, no matter where the basis of their beliefs lie.

Fuck off with that shit.

[beach tribe]

Not to mention, you state that you didn't start a prayer request thread, because you thought you would be dodging "pot shot", but then start a thread that seemingly invites "pot shot".

Way to take the feelings from the thought of your dead loved one, and create something negative. If you would have in fact, started a prayer request thread, you would have received some prayers, and would have not taken any "pot shots" (there may be a stray temporary classless drunkard or two) instead you're just creating bad vibrations.
Get it together man.

[Rausch]

it has validity in that people do indeed have issues with me, thats more about them than it is about me.

I don't even know who you are...

[milkman]

Dude, Bullshit.

You've been reading the responses to rapture threads about some whacko that claimed today was the end of ****ing days, and it got your radical ass so pissed off, that you confused this place with the type filled with people who would piss on a prayer request. There's probably a lot that might even say one just in case, no matter where the basis of their beliefs lie.

**** off with that shit.

You do realize the post you quoted is from '07, right?

[Dave Lane]

You do realize the post you quoted is from '07, right?

And the OP is from Tom Cash. So really discussing anything to do with this thread / post is completely meaningless.

[Simply Red]

I'm not sure it was really TC, It was never stated that that was verified nor denied. TMK

[Rausch]

And the OP is from Tom Cash. So really discussing anything to do with this thread / post is completely meaningless.

Dave Lane - Buzzkill...

[loochy]

I thought that the Raptors were supposed to come yesterday. I waited inside my house with a tranquilizer gun, a shotgun, and a cattle prod hoping that these Raptors weren't the ones that knew how to open doors. Then I was worried that some Raptors would be able to jump up to my 3rd story balcony and get in that way. However, the Raptors didn't come yesterday so I'm safe now.

[Rausch]

I thought that the Raptors were supposed to come yesterday. I waited inside my house with a tranquilizer gun, a shotgun, and a cattle prod hoping that these Raptors weren't the ones that knew how to open doors. Then I was worried that some Raptors would be able to jump up to my 3rd story balcony and get in that way. However, the Raptors didn't come yesterday so I'm safe now.

Fool.

One drop of raptor blood (assuming you mean the dinos and not the $3itty NBA team) and the whole apt. complex goes feral and meat hungry.

But if it was the NBA team I'd still load a shotgun. They aren't real good at opening doors but their cries will drive you nuts...

[Frazod]

http://i54.tinypic.com/2pqq4pt.gif

What the fuck is wrong with you that you'd bump this? Seriously.

:shake: