WTF: Sex Change at 12 years old

[Rooster]

Unhappy as a boy, Kim became youngest ever transsexual at 12

By Bojan Pancevski in Vienna, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 1:12am GMT 29/01/2007

A boy of 12 is believed to have become the world's youngest sex change patient after convincing doctors that he wanted to live the rest of his life as a female.

The boy - originally called Tim, but now known as Kim - has started to receive hormone treatment, in preparation for the operation that will eventually complete the sex change.

Tim was diagnosed as a transsexual two years ago, when doctors and psychiatrists concluded that his claims to be "in the wrong body" were so deeply felt that he required treatment. The therapy involves artificially arresting male puberty, with a series of potent hormone injections before the administration of female hormones to initiate the development of features such as breasts.

Now aged 14, and officially registered as a female, Kim looks like a typical girl of her age. She dresses in fashionable clothes, has long blonde hair and blue eyes and dreams of moving to Paris to become a fashion designer. Her parents, who initially assumed their son was going through a temporary phase, eventually grew accustomed to seeing him as a girl.

The family's full identity has not been made public. But Kim's father, known as Lutz P. – speaking to the German publications Der Spiegel and Stern – said that as a child, the boy liked to play with Barbie dolls, enjoyed wearing dresses and, from the age of two, insisted that he was a girl. "We saw Kim as a girl, but not as a problem. Our life was surprisingly normal."

Kim reacted badly to the first signs of puberty, he said. "At that stage we realised that she was terrified of growing facial hair and her voice breaking."

Kim's parents consulted psychiatrists across Germany. Some condemned their support of their child's desire to undergo a sex change, or suggested that Kim be kept under observation in a closed psychiatric ward. But others agreed that the child should receive therapy, because growing up to be a man would have damaged her personality.

Dr Bern Meyenburg, the head of a clinic for children and adolescents with identity disturbances at Frankfurt University, concluded that the child was serious. He wrote in his diagnosis: "Kim is a mentally well-developed child who appears happy and balanced. There is no doubt of the determined wish, that was already detectable since early childhood. It would have been very wrong to let Kim grow up to be a man. It is rare to have such a clear-cut case."

Kim is reportedly fully accepted by her fellow school pupils and teachers. The costs of the procedure are being covered by health insurance, as the condition qualifies as an illness.

Dr Achim Wuesthof, an endocrinologist specialising in children and adolescents, who is treating the teenager at a clinic in Hamburg, said the procedure had been a success so far. Speaking to The Sunday Telegraph, he said that even though under-16s were not permitted to undergo a sex change in other countries, he and his colleagues felt that in this case it had been best to start earlier. He said: "To the best of my knowledge, Kim is the youngest sex change patient in the world. According to German law, two independent psychiatrists must confirm that the child is indeed transsexual and approve the sex change. Once that has been done, it is best to start as early as possible.

"Transsexuals experience the onset of puberty, and the physical changes it brings, as a serious trauma. But there is a general lack of empathy with cases like Kim's, mostly because people know little about the condition. Imagine a man that suddenly starts growing breasts or a woman that starts growing a beard against their will – that is how Kim and people like her experience puberty.

"They are not freaks, nor do they suffer mental illness. They are simply trapped in the wrong bodies. That is why it is best to help them as early as possible and reduce the trauma for them and their families."

The problem that Dr Meyenburg and other psychiatrists faced was distinguishing a true transsexual personality from a temporary gender identity crisis. Dr Meyenburg quoted an example of a 15-year-old girl who wanted to change her sex, but who revealed during counselling that she had suffered brutal sexual abuse by her father – a case for psychological, rather than hormonal therapy.

Should Kim change her mind before the surgery, the procedure could be reversed. Doctors admit that the treatment involves a risk, however, and that its effects on children as young as Kim are not fully understood.

For legal reasons, the final stage – cosmetic surgery to remove the male genitalia – cannot take place until Kim is 18. Britain's youngest transsexual is Angel Paris-Jordan, who was granted an operation on the NHS at the age of 17.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/28/wkim28.xml

[pikesome]

Britain's youngest transsexual is Angel Paris-Jordan, who was granted an operation on the NHS at the age of 17.



I'm not trying to get his thrown into the DC but look at the bolded part.

[banyon]

This is all kinds of f***ed up.

Serious medical malpractice right there. Definitely shouldn't have been on the taxpayer's bill.

[StcChief]

What happens when your saddled with a 2" pecker.

[Reaper16]

This thread is worthless without pics.

[Eleazar]

This is all kinds of f***ed up.

Serious medical malpractice right there. Definitely shouldn't have been on the taxpayer's bill.

Don't worry, as soon as we get socialist health care, sex changes will be taxpayers' responsibility in the US too.

Maybe even cosmetic surgery. After all, why should the poor be denied access to the best that the medical profession has to offer? Lipo for everyone! Send the bills to Uncle Sam.

[noa]

Don't worry, as soon as we get socialist health care, sex changes will be taxpayers' responsibility in the US too.


Now we know why Hillary supports universal health care.

[crazycoffey]

Vienna Austria, what a freakin liberal country.

Dammit Liberals.

[ChiTown]

Enter UltraPeanut in 3, 2, 1............

[Ultra Peanut]

BOOYA

[acesn8s]

I bet Dad is proud of his son now.

[Simply Red]

This thread is worthless without pics.


Sick bastard!

Funny though!

ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

[Ultra Peanut]

She was spared many, many years of utterly unnecessary torment. Good for her. I wish I'd been brave enough to do something about it when I was twelve instead of waiting until I was twenty to even admit it to anyone else.

Lots of MtF transsexuals went the vigilante route as teenagers and managed to sneak hormones into their systems, delaying/altering the course puberty enough that they didn't get so many wonderfuly masculinized features, and they're now living much more happily than they would have otherwise been. I can do nothing but congratulate them for beating the ****ed-up system.

[BIG_DADDY]

I can do nothing but congratulate them for beating the ****ed-up system.

Please define what makes the system ****ed-up?

[BIG_DADDY]

When I was 12 I felt like a wolf trapped in a mans body. Every time people looked at me and called me human I felt uncomfortable. I just wanted to tell them, I'm a wolf, I'm not human. At night I would lay in bed and cry and ask god, why did you do this to me? Sometimes I would wake up and find myself eating out of the dogs dish. TO this very day I still piss on trees outside and have hurt my back several times trying to lick my own balls.

[crazycoffey]

I'm a lesbian in a man's body.

[StcChief]

When I was 12 I felt like a wolf trapped in a mans body. Every time people looked at me and called me human I felt uncomfortable. I just wanted to tell them, I'm a wolf, I'm not human. At night I would lay in bed and cry and ask god, why did you do this to me? Sometimes I would wake up and find myself eating out of the dogs dish. TO this very day I still piss on trees outside and have hurt my back several times trying to lick my own balls.

That wasn't a Wolf it was a horn dog..... :p

ROFL It makes just as much sense....

A freakin' 12 yo doesn't know sh1t about this.

This is prime example of why we want to have a European HC system here.... NOT.

[acesn8s]

That wasn't a Wolf it was a horn dog..... :p

ROFL It makes just as much sense....

A freakin' 12 yo doesn't know sh1t about this.

This is prime example of why we want to have a European HC system here.... NOT.
Hillary will save us.

[Stinger]

This thread is worthless without pics.
http://www.drudgereport.com/sc.jpg


From the Drudge report

[Reaper16]

http://www.drudgereport.com/sc.jpg


From the Drudge report
Why does she have socks on her hands? Is she getting into the whole domesticated housewife thing, too?
Good. If you're going to be a woman, then you'd better be prepared to go all the way with it.

[Eleazar]

A freakin' 12 yo doesn't know sh1t about this.

This is prime example of why we want to have a European HC system here.... NOT.

I am glad my parents didn't let me make a lot of permanent, life-altering decisions all by myself at age 12...

[banyon]

That makes sense, some loony European moron approved this ridiculous operation, so that means that poor people here who have legitimate medical issues should continue to be denied treatment.

[go bo]

the operation is not ridiculous...

it's an established medical procedure...

with good results, sfaik...

[Donger]

That makes sense, some loony European moron approved this ridiculous operation, so that means that poor people here who have legitimate medical issues should continue to be denied treatment.

"Denied treatment?" The doctors and nurses should just work for free?

[Braincase]

Gender identity is a very complicated thing. We have the physical, the psychological and sexual issues to deal with.

My gender identity is that I am physically male, I am psychologically male, and sexually I prefer women, making me heterosexual.

The problem is that society wants everybody to follow that norm. We impress it on all as "Right", when in reality there are any number of known and unknown factors that affect gener identity. There are those that are physically male, psychologically male, but choose a male partner. There are those, like this poor kid, that identify themselves as being psychologically female despite being physically male. This creates a tremndous conflict and source of depression and anxiety to the point of being suicidal or worse.

Yeah, it's too bad that nature screwed up and made this kid a victim. Don't pile on, 'cause this kid has enough to deal with. UP does too, as have others on the board. I try to empathize, and I hope that this same sort of conflict doesn't happen to any of my kids or grandkids or any other kid I know, but the reality of it is that it does happen.

Then the real problem lies not so much in the treatment of the condition, but in society's ability to accept it.

[banyon]

"Denied treatment?" The doctors and nurses should just work for free?

Yeah that's what I said. :shake:

[Donger]

Yeah that's what I said. :shake:

Well, you say that they are being denied treatment. Why are they being denied treatment?

[banyon]

Well, you say that they are being denied treatment. Why are they being denied treatment?

They are denied routine medical care by virtue of their poverty.

I am denied a yacht by virtue of my income.

The first situation is undesirable, the latter...eh, I don't like yachts anyway.

[Donger]

They are denied routine medical care by virtue of their poverty.

I am denied a yacht by virtue of my income.

The first situation is undesirable, the latter...eh, I don't like yachts anyway.

So, they should be afforded something they can't afford?

[banyon]

So, they should be afforded something they can't afford?

Are you in some sort of semantic games mood today?

It was an expression. And it's almost time for the KU game, so I can't play today.

Obviously I am for universal coverage and you are not due to your experiences with the British system. I respectfully disagree.

The post which started this was just my opinion that I thought people claiming this transgender chicanery represents some sort of evidence that universal coverage can't work were off base. The word "denied' was just an expression, I didn't intend it in a physical, but more of an abstract sense of the word.

We have plenty of threads in the other forum to keep up our ranting at each other. :)

BTW, In that one thread, I looked everywhere for some data on comparative doctor pay and came up with bupkus. I'm still interested in finding something that shows the disparity though.

[BIG_DADDY]

I don't think anyone is taking me seriously.

[boogblaster]

Over-payment for services, medical or other is a disease in this country..as far as some 12 year old kid getting his balls whacked is fricking sick ....

[Thig Lyfe]

I wonder what Believer thinks about this.

[Donger]

Holy crap... me, too. I didn't know I was a wolf, though.

If you lick your own balls, you've made a commitment.

[booger]

with or without peanut butter?








Here Fido!

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Gender identity is a very complicated thing. We have the physical, the psychological and sexual issues to deal with.

My gender identity is that I am physically male, I am psychologically male, and sexually I prefer women, making me heterosexual.

The problem is that society wants everybody to follow that norm. We impress it on all as "Right", when in reality there are any number of known and unknown factors that affect gener identity. There are those that are physically male, psychologically male, but choose a male partner. There are those, like this poor kid, that identify themselves as being psychologically female despite being physically male. This creates a tremndous conflict and source of depression and anxiety to the point of being suicidal or worse.

Yeah, it's too bad that nature screwed up and made this kid a victim. Don't pile on, 'cause this kid has enough to deal with. UP does too, as have others on the board. I try to empathize, and I hope that this same sort of conflict doesn't happen to any of my kids or grandkids or any other kid I know, but the reality of it is that it does happen.

Then the real problem lies not so much in the treatment of the condition, but in society's ability to accept it.

This is an excellent post that fully sums up my thoughts on the issues as well. We live in a society that preaches the illusion of binary sexual identity to such an extent that to be anything else is to be null, a non-human. There is a plethora of excellent literature on the subject, if anyone cares to inquire...

[booger]

When I was 12 I felt like a wolf trapped in a mans body. Every time people looked at me and called me human I felt uncomfortable. I just wanted to tell them, I'm a wolf, I'm not human. At night I would lay in bed and cry and ask god, why did you do this to me? Sometimes I would wake up and find myself eating out of the dogs dish. TO this very day I still piss on trees outside and have hurt my back several times trying to lick my own balls.

Kinda like Michael J. Fox in teenwolf?


I bet that's why you didn't post in the what animals are you afraid of thread.

[RealSNR]

If this happened in America, I'd say "yeah, excellent. Good for Tim/Kim. You were able to make the best of a bad hand and give mother nature the middle finger. Nice going."

It's wrong that people have to pay for that operation, though.

[Donger]

That doesn't apply if someone else licks my balls... does it?

Not according to my wife.

[Ultra Peanut]

Transsexuals have two options, basically:

1) Transition and live life in the gender role they're actually, get this, comfortable in. EWWWWW, GROSS!
2) Therapy, and only therapy. This has the added benefit of ending up in a massive number of suicides by the patients. WOOHOO, less freaks to potentially make you uncomfortable!

This is an excellent post that fully sums up my thoughts on the issues as well. We live in a society that preaches the illusion of binary sexual identity to such an extent that to be anything else is to be null, a non-human. There is a plethora of excellent literature on the subject, if anyone cares to inquire...****ING GROSS DUDE EWWWWW LOONY WHACKO PERVERSEWWWWWWWWWWWWW

It's wrong that people have to pay for that operation, though.Yes, because someone's core being and how they experience every single ****ing day of their life is a total non-issue.

[Ultra Peanut]

the operation is not ridiculous...

it's an established medical procedure...

with good results, sfaik...water u sum kinda faggot!!!!!!

[go bo]

no, i'm too fat to be a pillow biter...

i think the doctors and her parents are doing the right thing in this case by going along with the kid's wishes before the onset of puberty...

more power to her, i say...

[Ultra Peanut]

The earlier, the better. The thing that's impossible for those who haven't experienced it to realize is that, in a lot of cases, you already know exactly what you want. The problem is, unless you're completely socially retarded, you've noticed all of the signals saying how horrible and wrong it is for you to feel the way you feel for your entire life up to that point, making it extremely difficult to do anything other than bottle up and be miserable.

Do you people think someone just wakes up one day and says, "Hurrrr, I'd love to be a part of an irrationally feared group that people know next to nothing about! The high suicide rates are a bonus!"

Life is enough of a bitch without that sort of burden, and the quicker you cast it off, the better you are. Until society progresses to the point where kids can feel open about it and at least delay puberty until they're "sure," countless people will continue to suffer and many will kill themselves simply because it looks like a better alternative than either living a complete lie and never being able to be honest with anyone, or reaching the point where you're able to be open too late and being unable to fit into the role you would have found yourself comfortably fitting into if the situation had been different (sure, some people are able to transition at later ages than others; it's a matter of pure chance, basically, but the unlucky ones who look like linebackers are pretty much ****ed when it comes to just blending in).

Letting kids take control of their gender identities at an early age, and not looking down upon or scorning them for doing so, would quite literally save many, many lives.

But saving lives is less important than making sure a bunch of woefully uninformed others don't feel icky about it, I guess.

[BIG_DADDY]

Yes, because someone's core being and how they experience every single ****ing day of their life is a total non-issue.

So if someone's core being is so ****ing upset about having a penis they should get their ass up early every day for a few years and save the money they need to get the operation.

People making their own personal issues everyone else's problem is BS. In SF the tax payers have to pay for sex changes. That is wrong any way you look at it. MOF it's completely ****ing assinine.

[StcChief]

So if someone's core being is so ****ing upset about having a penis they should get their ass up early every day for a few years and save the money they need to get the operation.

People making their own personal issues everyone else's problem is BS. In SF the tax payers have to pay for sex changes. That is wrong any way you look at it. MOF it's completely ****ing assinine.

Wouldn't castration be just as successful?

The Europeifican of Kalifornia....

[crazycoffey]

I had two by the time I was 12.

[J Diddy]

I had two by the time I was 12.

couldn't make up your mind, eh?

:)

[BIG_DADDY]

Wouldn't castration be just as successful?

The Europeifican of Kalifornia....

I'll tell you Cali gets a bad rap. SF and LA just kill us with the amount of left of Stalin liberals they have there. I am in the Silicon Valley where I would say the majority are conservative. They would never even attempt that type of legislation in the mass majority of California.

[Ultra Peanut]

So if someone's core being is so ****ing upset about having a penis they should get their ass up early every day for a few years and save the money they need to get the operation.Waking up early every day is definitely enough to give an average person enough income to provide the extra $20,000+ it would require. Nobody ever struggles to make ends meet, or anything. And if they do, **** 'em. They're obviously just lazy.

This is, of course, without going into the high cost of hormones, which aren't covered under most insurance plans here in the good ol' US of A.

People making their own personal issues everyone else's problem is BS. In SF the tax payers have to pay for sex changes. That is wrong any way you look at it. MOF it's completely ****ing assinine.Well, I guess can't argue with that, then. You did use bold text, after all.

Wouldn't castration be just as successful?It's expert insight like this that makes me realize how silly I am for thinking it actually requires the slightest bit of knowledge about something to comment on it.

[StcChief]

I'll tell you Cali gets a bad rap. SF and LA just kill us with the amount of left of Stalin liberals they have there. I am in the Silicon Valley where I would say the majority are conservative. They would never even attempt that type of legislation in the mass majority of California.

Yeah. The "blue" counties think they own the States of Cali,Ill,Mass,NY.Wash,Ore.....

Ask the out-staters (country folks) or down-staters (in Ill) ....

They in general would just as soon divorce the city from their state.

[BIG_DADDY]

Letting kids take control of their gender identities at an early age, and not looking down upon or scorning them for doing so, would quite literally save many, many lives.



I don't care what people do as long as I don't have to pay for it. Letting kids choose their sex is insanity IMO though. I would never let my kid do that.

[Ultra Peanut]

I don't care what people do as long as I don't have to pay for it. Letting kids choose their sex is insanity IMO though. I would never let my kid do that.Far better for them to be miserable or even kill themselves because they feel it's their only option rather than to let them assert some degree of control over the direction of their entire lives!

[J Diddy]

Waking up early every day is definitely enough to give an average person enough income to provide the extra $20,000+ it would require. Nobody ever struggles to make ends meet, or anything. And if they do, **** 'em. They're obviously just lazy.

This is, of course, without going into the high cost of hormones, which aren't covered under most insurance plans here in the good ol' US of A.

Well, I guess can't argue with that, then. You did use bold text, after all.

It's expert insight like this that makes me realize how silly I am for thinking it actually requires the slightest bit of knowledge about something to comment on it.

When you start paying for my problems, I'll start paying for yours.

[Taco John]

Over-payment for services, medical or other is a disease in this country..as far as some 12 year old kid getting his balls whacked is fricking sick ....



Actually, the article says he's only getting hormone treatment at this point. He'll have the choice to get the operation performed when he's 18.

[RNR]

Well debate aside I am glad it is not my son!

[Mr. Kotter]

The earlier, the better. The thing that's impossible for those who haven't experienced it to realize is that, in a lot of cases, you already know exactly what you want. The problem is, unless you're completely socially retarded, you've noticed all of the signals saying how horrible and wrong it is for you to feel the way you feel for your entire life up to that point, making it extremely difficult to do anything other than bottle up and be miserable.

Do you people think someone just wakes up one day and says, "Hurrrr, I'd love to be a part of an irrationally feared group that people know next to nothing about! The high suicide rates are a bonus!"

Life is enough of a bitch without that sort of burden, and the quicker you cast it off, the better you are. Until society progresses to the point where kids can feel open about it and at least delay puberty until they're "sure," countless people will continue to suffer and many will kill themselves simply because it looks like a better alternative than either living a complete lie and never being able to be honest with anyone, or reaching the point where you're able to be open too late and being unable to fit into the role you would have found yourself comfortably fitting into if the situation had been different (sure, some people are able to transition at later ages than others; it's a matter of pure chance, basically, but the unlucky ones who look like linebackers are pretty much ****ed when it comes to just blending in).

Letting kids take control of their gender identities at an early age, and not looking down upon or scorning them for doing so, would quite literally save many, many lives.

But saving lives is less important than making sure a bunch of woefully uninformed others don't feel icky about it, I guess.So. What happens at the age of 25, if she changes her mind....and she realizes she fugged up, and she really is a he? :shrug:

I mean, does society get to pay for an operation to change her back also?

What then, Dr. Freud?

[Ultra Peanut]

So. What happens at the age of 25, if she changes her mind....and she realizes she fugged up, and she really is a he? :shrug:Do you often have trouble figuring out which gender you identify with?

And Freud? Seriously? What's next, the name of some random Bulgarian television star?

[Mr. Kotter]

Do you often have trouble figuring out which gender you identify with?
No, but then....I'm normal.

Are you saying that is not possible, even likely, given the psychological profile of these kids? :shrug:

Ms. Marin Yonchev

[Ultra Peanut]

No, but then....I'm normal.

Are you saying that is not possible, even likely, given the psychological profile of these kids? :shrug:So if the psychological profile is, "I'm this. I know I'm this."

But society says, "You're that. I know you're that."

Then clearly, the stupid sideshow freak is confused.

[Mr. Kotter]

So if the psychological profile is, "I'm this. I know I'm this."

But society says, "You're that. I know you're that."

Then clearly, the stupid sideshow freak is confused.FTR, I'm not invoking the "stupid sideshow freak" label....nor would I.

But after 15 years, at a high school of 2,000 kids.....I've seen a handful come through my classes over the years. A couple would fit the profile...I'm hypothesizing.

Know what I mean, Ms. Marin Yonchev?

[Reaper16]

FTR, I'm not invoking the "stupid sideshow freak" label....nor would I.

But after 15 years, at a high school of 2,000 kids.....I've seen a handful come through my classes over the years. A couple would fit the profile...I'm hypothesizing.

Know what I mean, Ms. Marin Yonchev?
No one doing it for attention, which does happen in high schools, is going to go through with hormone treatments, let alone a full operation. Professionals will be able to ascertain the validity of each case.
True gender confusion would be pretty rare, I'd think.

Mostly, you get a case of having a definite gender identity that doesn't match up with the physical gender. Little confusion there.

But surely, you're not saying that because there is the slim possibility of someone changing their mind post-op that the operation practice shouldn't happen in the first place? That's a slippery slope.

[Mr. Kotter]

No one doing it for attention, which does happen in high schools, is going to go through with hormone treatments, let alone a full operation. Professionals will be able to ascertain the validity of each case.
True gender confusion would be pretty rare, I'd think.

Mostly, you get a case of having a definite gender identity that doesn't match up with the physical gender. Little confusion there...
I'd agree, generally, with that. But surely, you're not saying that because there is the slim possibility of someone changing their mind post-op that the operation practice shouldn't happen in the first place? That's a slippery slope.
I'm not saying that at all. However, I would question the ethics of medical and psychological professionals allowing a 12 year old to enter into something like this.....without serious and substantial consideration, and research. In a socialistic healthcare system, I really question whether that sort of rigorous standard was observed in this case.

[BIG_DADDY]

So if the psychological profile is, "I'm this. I know I'm this."

But society says, "You're that. I know you're that."

Then clearly, the stupid sideshow freak is confused.

Far better for them to be miserable or even kill themselves because they feel it's their only option rather than to let them assert some degree of control over the direction of their entire lives!

OK, not to be a dick but this is ridiculous. Psychological profile? LMAO Look, if you are born with a dick you're a dude period. If me currently BIG DADDY was born being a woman I would embrace that regardless of personal sex prefferences. I always said I was a lesbian trapped inside a mans body anyway. :) Personally I feel much more sorry for a person having to grown up butt ugly or frail than someone that says they are something they are not. You are what you are. If you choose to be something else that's just fine but don't do it on tax payer coin.

As far as saving lives goes people take their own lives for many reasons many of which I would put before this issue. When I left home at 16 I left with 30 something k in my pocket that I had saved working throughout my youth. If a kid really wants to **** himself up he can go out and work till he has the money. I am sure they would take half down on your 20k to do the procedure.

In short there are people with real problems out there. They have real health issues and would do anything to be given the perfectly healthy body you have and are going to **** up. They are fighting a battle just to live. They are not people who would ever consider taking their own life. With all the money that is needed in this world to make life better for humanity in general to say people like yourself should be able to do this type of procedure on tax payer coin is beyond selfish IMO.

[RealSNR]

Yes, because someone's core being and how they experience every single ****ing day of their life is a total non-issue.Woah, easy there. I completely undestand where you're coming from. I just think universal healthcare for any operation is BS. I don't want to pay for Grandma Sweetheart's breast cancer chemotherapy or a 12-year old's new hormone treatment. It's just wrong

[Reaper16]

In a socialistic healthcare system, I really question whether that sort of rigorous standard was observed in this case.
Completely valid concern. Glad we don't have to worry about it here.

[StcChief]

Completely valid concern. Glad we don't have to worry about it here. YET
FYP.

[Redrum_69]

See Hootie...theres hope for you yet....

[Baby Lee]

no, i'm too fat to be a pillow biter...
go bear?

[Baby Lee]

So if the psychological profile is, "I'm this. I know I'm this."

But society says, "You're that. I know you're that."

Then clearly, the stupid sideshow freak is confused.
That reminds me, is Anne Heche still gay? ;)

[Eleazar]

You are what you are. If you choose to be something else that's just fine but don't do it on tax payer coin.


That is what I feel, basically. If you want to live as something else, then that's wonderful, go ahead. Do it and be happy. But why should the government pay for, essentially, cosmetic surgery? I don't understand. I'm seriously not trying to deride anyone's choices, I'm just saying I don't understand why there should be a difference in policy.

[BIG_DADDY]

That is what I feel, basically. If you want to live as something else, then that's wonderful, go ahead. Do it and be happy. But why should the government pay for, essentially, cosmetic surgery? I don't understand. I'm seriously not trying to deride anyone's choices, I'm just saying I don't understand why there should be a difference in policy.

Exactly, that's what it is. It's just a body, the one you were given to live in while you are here. To believe that body is what and who you are must really suck ass. It must be hell to be UP if that's what he really thinks. What you really are is so much more. It has nothing to do with what's between your legs.

[HMc]

so....is UP a she-male...or a gay dude?

[Eleazar]

so....is UP a she-male...or a gay dude?

I don't know the details. And really, whoever UP is, e has been around here for a very long time and is cool and well liked by all. I was just trying to make a rational point on the issue without emotional arguments and such.

[BIG_DADDY]

I don't know the details. And really, whoever UP is, e has been around here for a very long time and is cool and well liked by all. I was just trying to make a rational point on the issue without emotional arguments and such.

Funny thing is he is the only one calling himself names here. Talk about trying to be a victim. I am a live and let live guy in general. When it comes down to using the suicide threat to force society to support your lifestyle though you can't even come close to justifying that with me. You're going to do it, do it. There are too many people out there fighting for life that would do anything just to be in his position and have a healthy body. It kind of reminds me of an old skit I saw years ago where a guy held a gun to his own head and demanded people give him their money or he would blow his own brains out. That's some friggen twisted logic there.

[Reaper16]

Funny thing is he is the only one calling himself names here. Talk about trying to be a victim.
To be fair, when you're tossing around stuff like "Look, if you're born with a dick you're a dude, period." you can't fully absolve yourself from the blame train.

[Ultra Peanut]

LMAO Look, if you are born with a dick you're a dude period. Hey, scientific and psychological community! Attention, millions of transsexuals! **** your Dutch noise! Big Daddy has spoken!

How can anyone ever hope to argue with your credentials?

In short there are people with real problems out there. They have real health issues and would do anything to be given the perfectly healthy body you have and are going to **** up. They are fighting a battle just to live. They are not people who would ever consider taking their own life.Thanks for your expert advice. It's such a relief to know that the 17+ years I've spent going through all of this never actually happened!

I don't understand.I'm just going to quote this. You don't understand, and that's fine.

One way I saw someone put it was comparing a person's gender identity to the spleen, or some other internal organ. You don't notice it unless something's out of whack; when someone with a male gender identity is born in a male body, it's paid no mind. When someone with a female gender identity is born in a male body, the alarm bells go off.

To believe that body is what and who you are must really suck ass. It must. You tell me.

When it comes down to using the suicide threat to force society to support your lifestyle though you can't even come close to justifying that with me. You're going to do it, do it.Oh, shit! Are you on the Patrick Henry College debate team? Your reading comprehension is spectacular!

I'm not saying, "PAY FOR MY HORMONES AND SURGERY OR I'LL KILL MYSELF!" I'm saying that a massive percentage of transsexuals end up killing themselves, and that fostering an environment in which young transsexuals have a chance to be honest and open without fear of scorn and ridicule, as well as enabling them to at the very least delay the onset of puberty, would lead to far less ruined and prematurely ended lives.

But then, it's not a real problem in your learned opinion, so all of this is moot.

[HMc]

so which bits have you got and which ones do you want?

[BIG_DADDY]

Hey, scientific and psychological community! Attention, millions of transsexuals! **** your Dutch noise! Big Daddy has spoken!

How can anyone ever hope to argue with your credentials?

I'm sure they make a lot of money giving those controversial opinions as well. I am just giving you mine. I was unaware that we all needed to have certain credentials to post our opinions on this board. If that was the case we wouldn't have many people posting here. I'm telling you right now that if I died today and the same person I am right now was reborn a woman tomorrow I would embrace what I had become. I would just hope I was hot and not ugly. Would I prefer coming back a guy, sure. It's just a body though, there are certain benefits to being either sex. That's all I'm saying. I personally believe we are much more than just our bodies and there are several reasons I believe that to be true.

[BIG_DADDY]

Thanks for your expert advice. It's such a relief to know that the 17+ years I've spent going through all of this never actually happened!



That has nothing to do with what I just posted.

[Eleazar]

One way I saw someone put it was comparing a person's gender identity to the spleen, or some other internal organ. You don't notice it unless something's out of whack; when someone with a male gender identity is born in a male body, it's paid no mind. When someone with a female gender identity is born in a male body, the alarm bells go off.


So where does the gender identity come from, if not from something physiological...?

[Mr. Kotter]

I'm sure they make a lot of money giving those controversial opinions as well. I am just giving you mine. I was unaware that we all needed to have certain credentials to post our opinions on this board. If that was the case we wouldn't have many people posting here. I'm telling you right now that if I died today and the same person I am right now was reborn a woman tomorrow I would embrace what I had become. I would just hope I was hot and not ugly. Would I prefer coming back a guy, sure. It's just a body though, there are certain benefits to being either sex. That's all I'm saying. I personally believe we are much more than just our bodies and there are several reasons I believe that to be true.

I'd bet your Girly thread would probably have hairy armed, wide-shouldered, and "stouter" women though....:(

[BIG_DADDY]

Oh, shit! Are you on the Patrick Henry College debate team? Your reading comprehension is spectacular!

I'm not saying, "PAY FOR MY HORMONES AND SURGERY OR I'LL KILL MYSELF!" I'm saying that a massive percentage of transsexuals end up killing themselves, and that fostering an environment in which young transsexuals have a chance to be honest and open without fear of scorn and ridicule, as well as enabling them to at the very least delay the onset of puberty, would lead to far less ruined and prematurely ended lives.

But then, it's not a real problem in your learned opinion, so all of this is moot.

Hey dude you're the one that's making this personal, I'm just trying to talk about the subject in general. To force society to pay for sex changes because some people wanting those changes may commit suicide is not a basis for passing this legislation is all I am saying, especially with tons of people fighting for their lives out there. We don't pony up to save a bunch of them. What makes this very expensive proceedure a priority? I am curious what the continued health cost is after having the change as well. I'll bet there are all kinds of issues.

In short UP you are the one that keeps victimizing yourself throughout this thread with words like freak and the like. I never did that I just was discussing the subject. Personally I think that the great majority of us are much bigger freaks than we will ever let on. Chill

[BIG_DADDY]

To be fair, when you're tossing around stuff like "Look, if you're born with a dick you're a dude, period." you can't fully absolve yourself from the blame train.

When political correctness has reached a level where we no longer want to address reality for what it is because we might offend somebody it has become complete insanity.

Bottom line is he came out of his mother with a dick hanging and on his birth certificate it has him identified as being a dude. I know these doctors are not the "experts" he wants indentifying him but it is what it is. If acknowledging the obvious and concurring with these doctors is "vicitimizing" him IYO I don't really know what to say.

[BIG_DADDY]

I'd bet your Girly thread would probably have hairy armed, wide-shouldered, and "stouter" women though....:(

Hopefully I would be blessed with the ability to make the pages of the girly thread one day. It's the whole hot lipstick lesbian trapped in a man's body thing. :)

[StcChief]

Put these transsexuals that do kill themselves up for 'Darwin' awards. the gene pool has been improved.

I'm not buying any of their psycho bable GROW UP and be who you are.

[Ultra Peanut]

Woah, easy there. I completely undestand where you're coming from. I just think universal healthcare for any operation is BS. I don't want to pay for Grandma Sweetheart's breast cancer chemotherapy or a 12-year old's new hormone treatment. It's just wrongGrandma Sweetheart's a bitch, anyways.

I never brought up the issue of national health care, but I do admit that I take offense to someone arguing that my situation is less important than, say, someone's bum leg simply because you can't see mine from the outside.

That has nothing to do with what I just posted.Either it's a real problem, or it's not. If it's not a real problem, what the hell have I and countless others been going through?

So where does the gender identity come from, if not from something physiological...?There's no smoking gun at this point. All that is completely known is that transgendered people are found from pretty much every type of sociological, racial, economic, and environmental background. The current leading theories deal with hormones in the mother's body affecting development of the brain before birth, and/or a literal case of female brains ending up in male bodies, or the inverse. The early studies regarding examinations of transsexuals' brains seem to verify that the latter theory is at least somewhat on the mark, though again, this is something that only began to be truly studied over the last half of the 20th century.

Bottom line is he came out of his mother with a dick hanging and on his birth certificate it has him identified as being a dude. I know these doctors are not the "experts" he wants indentifying him but it is what it is. If acknowledging the obvious and concurring with these doctors is "vicitimizing" him IYO I don't really know what to say.The doctors identified me as a physical male. I'm all too aware that they were right. They didn't really bother trying to ascertain my gender identity, because conversations and psychological examinations in babies are made somewhat difficult due to the whole language barrier thing.

The issue isn't about whether or not a body is male or female, it's about whether someone's gender identity is such. Not that I expect you to have any insight or information on the matter, because it's far outside your realm of expertise and experience. And as I said to Cochise, that's completely fine.

It only becomes a problem when you begin making bold, wholly ignorant statements with nothing to back it up other than your ill-informed opinion.

Put these transsexuals that do kill themselves up for 'Darwin' awards. the gene pool has been improved.Yeah, seriously. I mean, why would any of them feel ashamed, afraid, and alone due to their circumstances? With such loving, supportive people like you out there, how could they feel like they could never actually live anything remotely resembling a life?

I'm not buying any of their psycho bable GROW UP and be who you are."It's what's on the inside that counts! Unless you're different in some way than most other people!"

Your idiotic statement leads me to my final point: Either you believe the body's not the be-all end-all (1) (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3745973&postcount=80), or you believe the body determines everything (2) (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3746023&postcount=85). Which one is it, BD?

People transition physically because it, ideally, enables them to finally be treated as the gender they've always felt themselves to be. If one could experience life as desired without such a trying, complex, expensive process, don't you think it would be avoided?

[StcChief]

Good luck with your Problem UP what ever it is....

Psychological, too many drugs, or hormonal, lack of testrone, etc....

our society doesn't need to be paying to have sex change operations.

[BIG_DADDY]

Your idiotic statement leads me to my final point: Either you believe the body's not the be-all end-all (1) (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3745973&postcount=80), or you believe the body determines everything (2) (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3746023&postcount=85). Which one is it, BD?

People transition physically because it, ideally, enables them to finally be treated as the gender they've always felt themselves to be. If one could experience life as desired without such a trying, complex, expensive process, don't you think it would be avoided?

I couldn't be more clear, it's just a body, it's not an identity. If god put me in a woman's body I would embrace what I was, pure and simple. I have said it over and over throughout this thread, you just choose to ignore it. I would prefer being a guy but if was put in a woman's body I could have a lot of fun being a woman. Each sex has it's distinct advantages.

You need to quit being so insulting as well. I have been real civil with you because I know you have a lot of feelings on this subject but I am getting tired of it.

[Reaper16]

I couldn't be more clear, it's just a body, it's not an identity. If god put me in a woman's body I would embrace what I was, pure and simple. I have said it over and over throughout this thread, you just choose to ignore it. I would prefer being a guy but if was put in a woman's body I could have a lot of fun being a woman. Each sex has it's distinct advantages.

Maybe. You seem to have a good idea for yourself, but that doesn't mean everyone would react the way you do. All I'm saying is that it's probably not that simple for everyone.

I think UP's beef with your position comes from the way you've been suggesting that "just accepting what body you have because there are advantages either way" is a mantra that everyone should follow. That seems like an erroneous, and somewhat ignorant if I may be blunt, stance to take. And that's okay, because you haven't experienced this sort of thing. Proclaiming that you're a lipstick lesbian in a man's body, though, kind of trivializes the whole ordeal.

[BIG_DADDY]

Maybe. You seem to have a good idea for yourself, but that doesn't mean everyone would react the way you do. All I'm saying is that it's probably not that simple for everyone.

I think UP's beef with your position comes from the way you've been suggesting that "just accepting what body you have because there are advantages either way" is a mantra that everyone should follow. That seems like an erroneous, and somewhat ignorant if I may be blunt, stance to take. And that's okay, because you haven't experienced this sort of thing. Proclaiming that you're a lipstick lesbian in a man's body, though, kind of trivializes the whole ordeal.

Why is that? I would have loved to have been a drop dead gorgeous lipstick lesbian in America. I would have the world by the huevos and would have never had to work. UP said himself ever sense he was young he wanted to be a little girl. The only difference is he is willing to disfigure himself and pump his body full of hormones and risk his health in order to accomplish it and wants you and me to pay for it.

Bottom line is I believe our bodies are nothing more than the vessel we are living in while we are here. UP believes his body is what he is. I fully support his decision to believe that way and recreate himself any way he wants as long as he is not using my money to do it. Remember I am a Libertarian. I fully support anyones right to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights.

You know what's funny is that people here go on and on about how dangerous using a little roids is but don't say jack shit here because it's politically incorrect. We are talking massive hormonal change.

[Eleazar]

You know what's funny is that people here go on and on about how dangerous using a little roids is but don't say jack shit here because it's politically incorrect. We are talking massive hormonal change.

That's an interesting point. I would guess there is probably not a hell of a lot of scientific data to see what damage you might be doing to yourself over a lifetime of trying to change yourself chemically into a member of the opposite sex.

[BIG_DADDY]

That's an interesting point. I would guess there is probably not a hell of a lot of scientific data to see what damage you might be doing to yourself over a lifetime of trying to change yourself chemically into a member of the opposite sex.

Can you imagine the outrage that would be shown to me wanting all of you to support a lifetime of steroid use so I could feel like more of a man?

[Redrum_69]

Dont let believer see this thread...they'd sprain their brain trying to come up with the bible verse

[Ultra Peanut]

Why is that? I would have loved to have been a drop dead gorgeous lipstick lesbian in America. I would have the world by the huevos and would have never had to work. UP said himself ever sense he was young he wanted to be a little girl.Wow, you hit the nail on the head! When I was four years old, I said to myself, "Self, I wish I were a drop dead gorgeous lipstick lesbian! That would make things so much easier, and being female just seems so convenient!"

Bottom line is I believe our bodies are nothing more than the vessel we are living in while we are here. UP believes his body is what he is. People interact with you in different ways depending on your appearance. I have always identified as a female, for whatever reason, and would love nothing more than to have people treat me as such without question. Guess what, though: It's not going to happen without a lot of work on my behalf. Until then, I'm "he" this and "him" that. Do you know how it feels to have every reference to yourself sting, as some sort of defiant denial of your very being? Do you know how it feels to fear that no one will ever truly know who you are?

That's why allowing someone in that 12-15 range to stop puberty from making decisions they may not want is an extremely good thing. That's why society as a whole having the slightest bit of understanding -- rather than saying, "your body says you're (this), deal with it!" -- is an extremely good thing. It keeps them from having even more obstacles on an already treacherous road.

"Disfiguring yourself" is currently the best option most transsexuals have, because as stated earlier, suicide rates among those who attempt to deal with the issue with therapy and therapy alone are very, very high.

I'm sure it's because they're all just shallow fools rather than the fact that every relationship and interaction they ever experience in their lives rings hollow.

[ClevelandChief]

Why does she have socks on her hands? Is she getting into the whole domesticated housewife thing, too?
Good. If you're going to be a woman, then you'd better be prepared to go all the way with it.


Maybe he forgets and still uses his socks for "other" things....


In related news, if I was 15 I'd do him/her.

[Amnorix]

If the kid has identified himself as a female since age 2, then I'm not sure what the parents and kids and doctors have done here is totally insane.

That said, I'm not a big fan of state funding of sex change therapy and/or surgery. Ultimately, the state isn't responsible for fixing every problem in people's lives, and just becaues they can't afford to fix it themselves doesn't mean it suddenly and automatically becomes the government's problem.

I support limited universal health care, because I view our current system as insane, dysfunctional, and teetering towards a breakdown. I havent' analyzed the heatlh care industry closely, and don't know where to draw the lines, but the kind of universal health care I would support would not likely include this kind of situation. Even if being in the wrong body causes lots of stress, etc., which may well be true, I don't view it as the government's problem to fix (no pun intended).

[BIG_DADDY]

Wow, you hit the nail on the head! When I was four years old, I said to myself, "Self, I wish I were a drop dead gorgeous lipstick lesbian! That would make things so much easier, and being female just seems so convenient!"



You have to quit twisting things if you want to be taken seriously. I said I would have loved to been born gorgeous female. The lipstick lesbian part would have been my choice. None of that had anything to do with you just my preference if I had been born in a female body.

[Chiefnj]

If the kid has identified himself as a female since age 2, then I'm not sure what the parents and kids and doctors have done here is totally insane.

That said, I'm not a big fan of state funding of sex change therapy and/or surgery. Ultimately, the state isn't responsible for fixing every problem in people's lives, and just becaues they can't afford to fix it themselves doesn't mean it suddenly and automatically becomes the government's problem.

I support limited universal health care, because I view our current system as insane, dysfunctional, and teetering towards a breakdown. I havent' analyzed the heatlh care industry closely, and don't know where to draw the lines, but the kind of universal health care I would support would not likely include this kind of situation. Even if being in the wrong body causes lots of stress, etc., which may well be true, I don't view it as the government's problem to fix (no pun intended).

Would you say the child has a form of mental illness?

[Walter]

Holy wow, dudes and dudettes.

[Amnorix]

Would you say the child has a form of mental illness?

I'm not sure whether this situation is a mental illness or more like homosexuality, which I do not view as a mental illness.

"Deviant" sexual behavior, whether it relates to what one DOES in the bedroom or what one wants to be, sexually, is open to alot of room for debate. Whether it's normal, deviant or a mental illness is how the rest of society categorizes them.

Male homosexuality in ancient Greece -- accepted and normal. Male homoesexuality in America in the 1950s? Criminal conduct and total social ostracization. Male homosexuality in 2007, accepted in theory, but usually frowned upon by huge elements of society.

Female homosexuality in 2007 by those same huge elements -- often it's a :thumb:

Cross-dressing
anal sex
oral sex
pedophelia
BDSM
homosexuality
gender "confusion" or whatever it's called

Which of these are innocent if done by consenting individuals, and which are criminal, insane, or legitimate?

Pedophilia is the only one that I think of as being automatically illegal, because it involves someone who CANNOT consent, because they're too young to consent. Everything else is up for debate.

You may laugh about anal sex or oral sex, but in many states, one or the other was illegal until as recently as 25 or 30 years ago, and in some states they still are illegal.

[BIG_DADDY]

People interact with you in different ways depending on your appearance. I have always identified as a female, for whatever reason, and would love nothing more than to have people treat me as such without question. Guess what, though: It's not going to happen without a lot of work on my behalf. Until then, I'm "he" this and "him" that. Do you know how it feels to have every reference to yourself sting, as some sort of defiant denial of your very being? Do you know how it feels to fear that no one will ever truly know who you are?

That's why allowing someone in that 12-15 range to stop puberty from making decisions they may not want is an extremely good thing. That's why society as a whole having the slightest bit of understanding -- rather than saying, "your body says you're (this), deal with it!" -- is an extremely good thing. It keeps them from having even more obstacles on an already treacherous road.

"Disfiguring yourself" is currently the best option most transsexuals have, because as stated earlier, suicide rates among those who attempt to deal with the issue with therapy and therapy alone are very, very high.

I'm sure it's because they're all just shallow fools rather than the fact that every relationship and interaction they ever experience in their lives rings hollow.

1. Of course people interact with people different based upon their appearance. That applies to everyone and there many people with many very real issues but I wouldn't condone society paying to make those changes happen. What's next, little Betty Sue has no boobs so guys are not attracted to her and we all need to foot the bill? I am sure she would like to be treated like Jesse Jane but that just isn't going to happen until she saves up enough money to make it happen. Truth is she will probably never look the way she wants or be treated the way she would like but she can give it a shot on her own coin. Same applies to you. You think cutting your penis off and taking hormones is going to get you treated the way you want? Not gonna happen. Now you will just be a dude with a sex change. Even if you manage to manipulate your appearance to look attractive what are you going to do, not tell the guy your going out with? Do you think if guys know they will treat you like a woman? Can you have a baby? No, you're just a guy with a sex change who will be treated like a freak instead of being treated like a dude unless you are will to try and live a complete lie. JMO

2. Know who you are? This gets back to what I was talking about before. You are who you are and that has very little to do with the vessel that you're living in IMO. This is a basic fundamental difference we have with each other. I think we just need to agree to disagree on this. Suffice to say if I thought all I was was this flesh I am living in I would be depressed no matter what.

3. Is the suicide rate for people disfiguring themself any better?

[BIG_DADDY]

I support limited universal health care, because I view our current system as insane, dysfunctional, and teetering towards a breakdown. I havent' analyzed the heatlh care industry closely, and don't know where to draw the lines, but the kind of universal health care I would support would not likely include this kind of situation. Even if being in the wrong body causes lots of stress, etc., which may well be true, I don't view it as the government's problem to fix (no pun intended).

The current system is broke. Show me universal health care that is where they are getting better medical attention than we are here.

I agree cosmetic surgery should not be covered if we had it.

[Chief Nute]

Is there anyway that we could turn this into a poop thread? I am more qualified to talk about poop. I know nothing about sex changes.

This is just boring and weird.