U.S. History Poll

[Jenson71]

Pick Three. Discuss.

[CHENZ A!]

I only play Powerball occasionally, never any of the other stuff.

[milkman]

Pick three what?

[Jenson71]

Pick three what?

Three areas of U.S. history you find most interesting.

[Joie]

Only 3?

[crazycoffey]

someone needs help deciding what to write about for college paper????

[milkman]

Oh, a poll.

I don't do polls.

Good luck.

[crazycoffey]

Oh, a poll.

I don't do polls.

Good luck.


He should ask for help from GC, I hear he does poles

[plbrdude]

the era of good feelings. any others need not apply. although i don't know when this era was, you can't go wrong with good feelings.

[Stinger]

American Revolution, Jefferson Era, and WWII

[Donger]

Easy.

[Frazod]

Certainly the three periods I've read about the most would be the Revolutionary War, the Civil War and World War II.

Must have strife and lots of bloodshed, apparently.

[Stinger]

Must have strife and lots of bloodshed, apparently.

Well now we know why you are a Chief fan.

[ChiefsCountry]

The 3 I find most intresting are the Civil War, WWII, and Vietnam.

[BucEyedPea]

The Great Awakening...The American Enlightenment
The American Revolution Era
The Forming of a Constitution...Washington Era

I hate when WWII is referred to as the "Greatest Generation."
They're not...they never questioned anything!!!!

No doubt they did make a lot of sacrifices and in many other ways they were great...but the "greatest?" Nope! I reserve that distinction for our Founders— men who not only sacrificed,some lost their homes and family... but who were also men of ideas, who questioned things. Ideas, not bullets mark the forward progress of man.

[Jenson71]

The Great Awakening...The American Enlightenment
The American Revolution Era
The Forming of a Constitution...Washington Era

I hate when WWII is referred to as the "Greatest Generation."
They're not...they never questioned anything!!!!

No doubt they did make a lot of sacrifices and in many other ways they were great...but the "greatest?" Nope! I reserve that distinction for our Founders— men who not only sacrificed,some lost their homes and family... but who were also men of ideas, who questioned things. Ideas, not bullets mark the forward progress of man.

For argument's sake...I will counter that their idea was defeat tyranny in the Pacific and Europe. And the absense of tyranny and promotion of democracy seems to be a forward progress of man, imo.

Also for argument's sake...World War II showed history what real democracy (realizing that America is not pure democracy, but the popular term for it....perhaps the term "polyarchy" would fit best, but the point is understood) could do. The founder's idea of democracy...rich white men ruling everything, is not something we would consider democracy today.

Here were my 3:
1. The Forming of a Constitution...Washington Era
2. World War I....Wilson Presidency
3. Roaring Twenties...Prohibition....The Rise of Organized Crime

[ChiefaRoo]

I want to live in the Captain Kirk era so I can phaser aliens.

[RealSNR]

I can't believe you forgot The Guilded Age you dumb****.

And westward expansion?

You missed a lot

[Frazod]

The Great Awakening...The American Enlightenment
The American Revolution Era
The Forming of a Constitution...Washington Era

I hate when WWII is referred to as the "Greatest Generation."
They're not...they never questioned anything!!!!

No doubt they did make a lot of sacrifices and in many other ways they were great...but the "greatest?" Nope! I reserve that distinction for our Founders— men who not only sacrificed,some lost their homes and family... but who were also men of ideas, who questioned things. Ideas, not bullets mark the forward progress of man.

If they had questioned things more, we'd be CONVERSING IN GERMAN RIGHT NOW. Consider that. :shake:

[BucEyedPea]

If they had questioned things more, we'd be CONVERSING IN GERMAN RIGHT NOW. Consider that. :shake:

I never meant WWII was not a legit war, we were directly attacked.
That one was easy. People signed up.

I said they never questioned "anything!"

[Frazod]

I never meant WWII was not a legit war, we were directly attacked.
That one was easy. People signed up.

I said they never questioned "anything!"

I assume you mean they weren't the enlightened dope smoking hippy wastoids of the 60s.

The Baby Boomers had the luxury of questioning things because by and large they had it incredibly easy and had lived lives of comfort and security, provided by your non-questioning WWII generation. That generation also grew up during the Great Depression, and the main question many of them asked was "Is my family going to starve to death?" Later the question was "Am I going to die storming this beach?"

When you're hanging on by your fingertips, you don't go waiving your arms around.

[BucEyedPea]

The Founder's idea of democracy...rich white men ruling everything, is not something we would consider democracy today.
Fixed just a tiny part of your post.

Well, their idea of democracy is the one I happen to share:

"A pure democracy is a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person."— MADISON

I prefer to use the term representative republic.

[007]

Space Race.

[BucEyedPea]

I assume you mean they weren't the enlightened dope smoking hippy wastoids of the 60s.

The Baby Boomers had the luxury of questioning things because by and large they had it incredibly easy and had lived lives of comfort and security, provided by your non-questioning WWII generation. That generation also grew up during the Great Depression, and the main question many of them asked was "Is my family going to starve to death?" Later the question was "Am I going to die storming this beach?"

When you're hanging on by your fingertips, you don't go waiving your arms around.
They had books, newspapers and magazines though but no tv. When the war came they were also employed again.

Ever think about what suffering and losses those educated men of means who founded our country underwent? If we had lost they would have been executed for treason. They didn't have to do this either, they coulda played it safe. Their station in life was one of means. Yet they questioned and they fought.

Here's a list of those who signed the Declaration of Independence:

•Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags.

•Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward.

•Vandals or soldiers or both, looted the properties of Ellery, Clymer, Hall, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.

•At the Battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis, had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. The owner quietly urged General George Washington to open fire, which was done. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.

•Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.

•John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his grist mill were laid waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home after the war to find his wife dead, his children vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart.


http://www.connecticutsar.org/articles/price_paid.htm

[Jenson71]

I can't believe you forgot The Guilded Age you dumb****.

And westward expansion?

You missed a lot

The Gilded Age could go under "Big Business"

Westward Expansion could go under Age of Jackson. Or Antebellum/Age of Reason. I think it was very prominent during Polk's presidency.

Of course, Other works too. :)

[Frazod]

They had books, newspapers and magazines though but no tv. When the war came they were also employed again.

Ever think about what suffering and losses those educated men of means who founded our country underwent? If we had lost they would have been executed for treason. They didn't have to do this either, they coulda played it safe. Their station in life was one of means. Yet they questioned and they fought.

Here's a list of those who signed the Declaration of Independence:

•Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags.

•Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward.

•Vandals or soldiers or both, looted the properties of Ellery, Clymer, Hall, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.

•At the Battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis, had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. The owner quietly urged General George Washington to open fire, which was done. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.

•Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.

•John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his grist mill were laid waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home after the war to find his wife dead, his children vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart.


http://www.connecticutsar.org/articles/price_paid.htm

I never said anything about the founding fathers. Although I will note that, as with all wars, generally the people who do the deep thinking aren't the same ones who do the bloody dying.

[BucEyedPea]

I never said anything about the founding fathers. Although I will note that, as with all wars, generally the people who do the deep thinking aren't the same ones who do the bloody dying.
I didn't say you said anything about the Founders for that matter. I did. I was just comparing them because I consider them to be more worthy of the "greatest generation" which I said earlier. In this case some of thinkers did fight. Also Harry Truman knew war as did others.

[Bugeater]

So what Jefferson was saying was "Hey! You know, we left this England place because it was bogus. So if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too." Yeah?

[Jenson71]

The forming of a Constitution and the Washington era are very interesting to me. There's a lot of drama in the anti-/federalists at the forming and passing of the constitution. And Washington's cabinet is composed of some very accomplished people that are worth understanding. The fueds between Jefferson and Hamiliton and Adams are cool to learn about.

This was also the time of the French Revolution, which also seemed to help create a bigger wedge between people in America. Who do we support? Freedom lovers or radicals?

It's interesting that some people thought Washington was related to corruption as he was leaving his second term, and actually didn't like The Father of Our Country.

[Miles]

Space Race.

Good one. Some very interesting stuff there.

[BucEyedPea]

The fueds between Jefferson and Hamiliton and Adams are cool to learn about.

I've read several Washington biographies that tell about these fueds and how it tore Washington apart personally as he loved both men. Funny because I love Jefferson's ideas but a biography personalizes these men. I have to admit I really wound up hating him as a person. He was so think skinned!

On the other hand, he was at the CC he was in France. It's speculation but I wonder what would have happened had he been there and when ratification took place? I wonder if the whole Virginia contingent would have failed to ratify and doomed the whole thing if he refused to.

[Frazod]

Adams - great man, honest but vain, hypersensitive and unpleasant.

Hamilton - brilliant man, great leader and administrator, but a poor politician.

Jefferson - unprincipled, cowardly scoundrel, but a masterful politician and manipulator. One of the most unsavory weasels in American history.

[Jenson71]

On the other hand, he was at the CC he was in France. It's speculation but I wonder what would have happened had he been there and when ratification took place? I wonder if the whole Virginia contingent would have failed to ratify and doomed the whole thing if he refused to.

BUT....even if Viriginia had failed to ratify...wouldn't there still have been 10 states that DID ratify, passing the required 9 to make it official? Or are you thinking Jefferson's/Virginia's refusal would have affected outside states?

<---- not an expert on this history.

[Jenson71]

Jefferson - unprincipled, cowardly scoundrel, but a masterful politician and manipulator. One of the most unsavory weasels in American history.

I would guess you agree with his agrarian focus though, no?

I like Jefferson, but I haven't read THAT much about him, so my opinion probably doesn't amount to much. He was smart but seems to not be able to make up his mind on some key issues.

[BucEyedPea]

BUT....even if Viriginia had failed to ratify...wouldn't there still have been 10 states that DID ratify, passing the required 9 to make it official? Or are you thinking Jefferson's/Virginia's refusal would have affected outside states?

<---- not an expert on this history.
First, now that you quoted me, I see a typo that changes what I meant. I meant to say Jefferson was not at the CC.

My understanding is that the Virginia contingent was a key contingent as it was one of the most influential. If it failed to ratify, NY may have followed suit. It was narrowly approved by Virginia anyway. The Constitution overall was fiercly debated in its day. It was the diminuative and shy Madison that prevailed over the charismatic Patrick Henry in Virginia by promising to add a "Bill of Rights." If this was the atmosphere overall, and in particular Virginia, I can just imagine the emotional sparks Jefferson would have brought and what would have happened knowing his views as well.

[Frazod]

I would guess you agree with his agrarian focus though, no?

I like Jefferson, but I haven't read THAT much about him, so my opinion probably doesn't amount to much. He was smart but seems to not be able to make up his mind on some key issues.

Within the past couple of years I've read biographies of Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin and Hamilton, as well as several other books about the period. Jefferson was a SCUMBAG. It is a national disgrace that he is so favorably regarded, generally by people who know absolutely nothing about him. He was a lying, unprincipled, cowardly, backstabbing worm. Plaguerized most of the language in the Declaration of Independence. Preached fiscal responsibility yet lived far beyond his means during his entire life and died massively in debt. Ran like a scalded dog from the British when he was governor of Virginia. Hired others to publicly attack his enemies, then feigned ignorance of said attack. Unjustly ruined the reputations of Hamilton and Adams, and pretty much anybody else who disagreed with him. Basically committed treason during his tenure as Secretary of State by negotiating with the French contrary to Washington's directives. Washington didn't speak to Jefferson during the final two years of his life, as he had finally tired of Jefferson's backstabbing crap. Jefferson did not even attend Washington's funeral.

If you're looking for a good biography, read Ron Chernow's Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton was a giant among midgets. Unfortunately, he died prematurely and was outlived by his enemies, who did much to ruin his reputation.

[BucEyedPea]

LOL at frazod's post. I never knew all that.

I think there is a difference between personality as in being personable and one's ideas. Jefferson was a great thinker....but he definitely was a weasel.

Washington, though, was admirable, imo. There's three types of biographies on him: those who smear him as a womanizer to the other extreme. He was more in between the two. He was human but really a good man. I have to give him credit for maintaining sanity at the end of the war. It coulda wound up like the French Revolution m as many wanted revenge and the heads of the Tories. But due to his efforts mainly, he ended it all and moved on. Thought it was a great move.

[boogblaster]

Clearly our history has been stormy ..Led by ass-holes who would sell their souls for power..Show me a honest man and he'll be broken down from hard work, stress, nagging spouce, early health problems, but proud that he did it and survived..Clearly we've came along way but with sacrifices behond print..Hopefully our children will have a chance to better this world without having to sell-out to the current power structure .....

[Frazod]

The ONLY thing Jefferson ever did that truly benefitted the country was brokering the Louisiana Purchase. Of course, that was HUGE, and alone nearly makes up for everything else he did.

But not quite.

[BucEyedPea]

Jenson are you aware that there was correspondence between Jefferson and Madison where they thought their mail was being tampered with during The Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798?

The more things change, the more they remain the same.

[Miles]

If you're looking for a good biography, read Ron Chernow's Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton was a giant among midgets. Unfortunately, he died prematurely and was outlived by his enemies, who did much to ruin his reputation.

Sounds like an interesting read. Hamilton has always seemed like a bit of a badass.

Hopefully I will get around to "To the Last Man" that you suggested this weekend.

[Jenson71]

Jenson are you aware that there was correspondence between Jefferson and Madison where they thought their mail was being tampered with during The Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798?

The more things change, the more they remain the same.

I was not aware of that particular situation. But I do know how Jefferson hated that Act, and understandably so, as some of his fellow Republicans were being sent to jail on it and all. "Reign of Witches"

[BucEyedPea]

The ONLY thing Jefferson ever did that truly benefitted the country was brokering the Louisiana Purchase. Of course, that was HUGE, and alone nearly makes up for everything else he did.

But not quite.
LMAO You're crackin' me up!

Bony almost took back the offer.

Anyhow, I love this document...complete with Bony's signature.
Just look at the casing that thing is in.

LA Purchase (http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/american_originals/loupurch.html)


In case it doesn't come in above (http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=true&doc=18)

[Jenson71]

The ONLY thing Jefferson ever did that truly benefitted the country was brokering the Louisiana Purchase. Of course, that was HUGE, and alone nearly makes up for everything else he did.

But not quite.

Not a Cavalier fan, Frazod?

[pikesome]

I hate when WWII is referred to as the "Greatest Generation."
They're not...they never questioned anything!!!!



They also spawned the Boomers, reason enough to send them to crappy nursing homes in Florida without their driver's licences.

[Frazod]

Not a Cavalier fan, Frazod?

Oops. That whole University of Virginia thing slipped my mind. :D

[CHIEF4EVER]

The Revolution - Against all odds we got our freedom.
The Washington Era - We formed our Constitution.

AAAAaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnd, the one you forgot.....

The War of 1812 - We nearly lost our new country but gritted out a win and our final sovereignty.

[Frazod]

The Revolution - Against all odds we got our freedom.
The Washington Era - We formed our Constitution.

AAAAaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnd, the one you forgot.....

The War of 1812 - We nearly lost our new country but gritted out a win and our final sovereignty.

Yeah, the War of 1812. One of Jefferson's big things was a very minimal standing army. He also gutted the fledgling navy that Adams had built.

Then Jefferson's No. 1 lackey, Madison, declared war on England WHILE WE BASICALLY HAD NO ARMED FORCES. As a reward for that bit of dumbassery, Madison got to flee Washington DC right before the British burnt it to the ground. We were damned lucky to survive that disastrous mess.

Madison was a stiff, introverted runt with no interpersonal skills, who had no business whatsoever being President, but he was Jefferson's hand-picked successor. People always talk about his work on the Federalist Papers (with Hamilton, a loyal friend whom he betrayed at the behest of Jefferson) and the Constitution, but his stint as president is not fondly remembered.

[Jenson71]

I'm reading a good deal about Jefferson and his thoughts on the Missouri Compromise of 1820. Him and Adams had such foresight. Jefferson was extremely worried about the issue. He hated seeing slavery being protected and expanding (but in MO he wanted it to expand), and then this rolled around, he labeled it "the knell of the union". It certainly pushed it.

[BucEyedPea]

Madison was a stiff, introverted runt with no interpersonal skills, who had no business whatsoever being President, but he was Jefferson's hand-picked successor. People always talk about his work on the Federalist Papers (with Hamilton, a loyal friend whom he betrayed at the behest of Jefferson) and the Constitution, but his stint as president is not fondly remembered.

Yah, well he also wrote most of the Constitution and is considered the "Father of the Constitution." I bet ya' like his intellect. Hamilton was the big govt type. They shoulda' kicked him to the curb! :p

You have your country and ratified Constitution because Madison saved the day on seeing that it got ratified by Virginia.

Like I posted before, ideas and intellect don't equate into to the most personable people. I love Madison's ideas much more than Hamilton even it he was a nerd.

[ClevelandBronco]

I went with the War Between the States (I thought you guys from Missouri didn't use "The Civil War") and the Roaring-Twenties/Prohibition/Rise-of-organized-crime options.

Somehow I lost my focus and went with The War to End All Wars and/or The Great Conflict (later WWI, though only after we experienced the sequel — WWII), but while that tragedy is an absolutely fascinating aspect of world history, it wasn't really all that interesting from a U.S. history perspective.

If you'd award me a mulligan, I'd sub out WWI and sub in the Vietnam era, to account for its greater impact on U.S. history.

I agree with Shelby Foote, who said that any understanding of the U.S. today had to be fundamentally based on an understanding of the Civil War. It was the event that changed the way we speak. Before the war, you would say "The United States are..."; after the war, you'd say "The United States is..." We became a singular power (more than a plural collection of States) because of what happened to cause and conclude that war.

I just personally enjoy the "romanticism" (if you will) of the rise of organized crime. It makes for great cinema, at least.

The Vietnam era was another cultural redefinition that is second only to the Civil War period, IMO. And what a mixed bag it was, with some important vital advances as well as a good share of unfortunate unintended consequences.

[ClevelandBronco]

Adams - great man, honest but vain, hypersensitive and unpleasant.

Hamilton - brilliant man, great leader and administrator, but a poor politician.

Jefferson - unprincipled, cowardly scoundrel, but a masterful politician and manipulator. One of the most unsavory weasels in American history.

20 years ago I would have jumped all over you for that post.

Now I've read enough (and aged enough) to agree with you.

Good working summary, although I'd give a nod to the broad (but unfocused) genius of Jefferson's talents.

[Frazod]

20 years ago I would have jumped all over you for that post.

Now I've read enough (and aged enough) to agree with you.

Good working summary, although I'd give a nod to the broad (but unfocused) genius of Jefferson's talents.
Same here. Jefferson's despicable nature and conduct really seems to be American History's dirty little secret. It really is shameful that he has a face on Rushmore, a monument on the Mall, and cities named after him in several states; that in itself is a monument to our own gullability. I can never remember any teacher I ever had saying anything negative about him. But it's hard to admire the people he f#cked over and/or betrayed (Washington, Hamilton, Adams) and maintain any respect for him.

Historians have long speculated why Jefferson burned all of his personal correspondence. I think the really easy answer is either (a) shame or (b) a continued effort to cover his weasel tracks. Perhaps (c), all of the above. He was probably as dishonest with himself as he was everybody else.

[Jenson71]

I don't think it was ALL his correspondence. Do you know when she burned his letters to his wife? Was it after he died, or was it perhaps because of Hemmings relationship? Maybe it was just his shy nature and did not believe anyone needed to see that side of him.

Jefferson was a flawed man, there's no doubt about it. But he also had a good amount of great ideas, to go along with those mistakes (Embargo Act, etc). Those ideas need to be remembered and practiced.

[ClevelandBronco]

Same here. Jefferson's despicable nature and conduct really seems to be American History's dirty little secret. It really is shameful that he has a face on Rushmore, a monument on the Mall, and cities named after him in several states; that in itself is a monument to our own gullability. I can never remember any teacher I ever had saying anything negative about him. But it's hard to admire the people he f#cked over and/or betrayed (Washington, Hamilton, Adams) and maintain any respect for him.

Historians have long speculated why Jefferson burned all of his personal correspondence. I think the really easy answer is either (a) shame or (b) a continued effort to cover his weasel tracks. Perhaps (c), all of the above. He was probably as dishonest with himself as he was everybody else.


My eighth grade history teacher (circa 1972 or so) was such a true believer that we were required to speak the words "Mr. Thomas Jefferson" when Jefferson was mentioned in class. Failure to refer to him as such resulted in a five percent reduction in your reported grade.

Before anyone younger than my own 47 years argues that my teacher could have been challenged, permit me to say that you're delusional if you think that I, any student or any parent I knew would consider challenging a teacher in the early 1970s. It just wasn't done.

[luv]

Is it surprising that The Depression came after the era of the start of organized crime?

[ClevelandBronco]

Do you know when he burned his letters to his wife? Was it after he died...?

Yes, he burned those letters after he died.

(Please forgive me. I couldn't resist...)

[ClevelandBronco]

Is it surprising that The Depression came after the era of the start of organized crime?

I doubt that you can show a credible cause and effect relationship between those two events. I'm certainly willing to listen if you have any evidence that you'd like to present.

[Jenson71]

Yes, he burned those letters after he died.

(Please forgive me. I couldn't resist...)

:) Fixed it.

[luv]

I doubt that you can show a credible cause and effect relationship between those two events. I'm certainly willing to listen if you have any evidence that you'd like to present.
I can't. I'm not too great at debate anyway.

[luv]

Sorry. I didn't mean to kill the thread with a lame side comment. I'll let you intellectual types get back to your conversing.

[Jenson71]

What three did you pick, luv?

[luv]

What three did you pick, luv?
I never was too great at history. I always seemed to get all of the boring history teachers.

Anyway, I chose the Revolution (fighting for freedom), the Civil War (fighting for freedom), and the Great Depression (how important economy is to well-being).

[Jenson71]

I never was too great at history. I always seemed to get all of the boring history teachers.

Anyway, I chose the Revolution (fighting for freedom), the Civil War (fighting for freedom), and the Great Depression (how important economy is to well-being).

Great choices. It's hard to argue against fighting for one's freedom. That's too bad about your history teachers. Mine still coached football, but they were still great.

[CoMoChief]

WWII, Civil War, Colonial America

[luv]

Great choices. It's hard to argue against fighting for one's freedom. That's too bad about your history teachers. Mine still coached football, but they were still great.
Mine all spent more time talking about their experience in whatever war they were in than what they were fighting for or how it pertained to history. I had one who graded on a curve. There would have to be some kiss ass student who got everything right. I worked my butt off in that class to get a C. I read The Crime of the Century to do a book report on for that class. It was the only thing I did halfway. I read the first three and last three chapters of the book, wrote the book report off what I knew of it, and got an A- on it. Go figure.

[Fishpicker]

Civil war Era, Vietnam Era, The Wild West. In particular I think the history of Buffalo Bill's Wild West is interesting.