Rick Gosselin's Combine Report

[Sam Hall]

He looks at five areas:

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/columnists/rgosselin/stories/030407dnspogosselin.2b7bf6d.html

[Tribal Warfare]

:fire:Ohh yes, Jarrett will be ours :fire:

:rockon:

[keg in kc]

Interesting little read.

[htismaqe]

Sounding more and more like Patrick Willis worked himself into the 15-20 range, out of our reach...

[Hammock Parties]

Damn. 4.45...

[Mr. Laz]

:fire:Ohh yes, Jarrett will be ours :fire:

:rockon:
still don't know why you wanna take a WR when the chiefs don't want to emphasize the passing game.

[Tribal Warfare]

still don't know why you wanna take a WR when the chiefs don't want to emphasize the passing game.

BPA

[Mr. Laz]

BPA
oh come on ... taking the BPA doesn't make a guy jump up and down like a kid on christmas morning.


you WANT jarrett for some reason :shrug:

[Tribal Warfare]

oh come on ... taking the BPA doesn't make a guy jump up and down like a kid on christmas morning.


you WANT jarrett for some reason :shrug:


:spock:

[Mr. Laz]

:spock:
i didn't mean "want" that way .... doofus. LMAO


but you've been hyped for Jarrett for awhile now ... just curious about why. I'm not against him.

[RedThat]

still don't know why you wanna take a WR when the chiefs don't want to emphasize the passing game.

I don't think that matters Laz. Even if we do emphasize on the running game, you still need a WR in this league don't you?

Even some of the better running teams like Pittsburgh have WRs.

[Mr. Laz]

I don't think that matters Laz. Even if we do emphasize on the running game, you still need a WR in this league don't you?

Even some of the better running teams like Pittsburgh have WRs.
so which do you trust more.....

Herm Edwards to evaluate and develop a wide receiver

or

Herm Edwards to evaluate and develop a guy for defense



since apparently our talent evaluation goes up and strength almost completely based on the strength and weaknesses of our current Head Coach i would rather Edwards just stick with what he knows.

let him build a great defense ...... then we can fire him and hire an offense Head Coach so we can start drafting offense again.

Maybe if we continue flip-flopping Head coaches we will finally be able to field a complete team.

[ChiefsCountry]

so which do you trust more.....

Herm Edwards to evaluate and develop a wide receiver

or

Herm Edwards to evaluate and develop a guy for defense



since apparently our talent evaluation goes up and strength almost completely based on the strength and weaknesses of our current Head Coach i would rather Edwards just stick with what he knows.

let him build a great defense ...... then we can fire him and hire an offense Head Coach so we can start drafting offense again.

Maybe if we continue flip-flopping Head coaches we will finally be able to field a complete team.

Edwards did draft Santana Moss & Jerricho Cotchery, two better receivers than Vermeil found with us. Also he developed Coles.

[OnTheWarpath15]

so which do you trust more.....

Herm Edwards to evaluate and develop a wide receiver

or

Herm Edwards to evaluate and develop a guy for defense



since apparently our talent evaluation goes up and strength almost completely based on the strength and weaknesses of our current Head Coach i would rather Edwards just stick with what he knows.

let him build a great defense ...... then we can fire him and hire an offense Head Coach so we can start drafting offense again.

Maybe if we continue flip-flopping Head coaches we will finally be able to field a complete team.

WR's historically take the longest to develop in the NFL.

Last four years, WR's drafted after pick 15:

Santonio Holmes
Matt Jones
Mark Clayton
Roddy White
Michael Clayton
Michael Jenkins
Rashaun Woods
Bryant Johnson

Who stood out in their rookie year? Hell, who stands out NOW?

[Mr. Laz]

Edwards did draft Santana Moss & Jerricho Cotchery, two better receivers than Vermeil found with us. Also he developed Coles.
he then traded both coles and Moss because he couldn't do anything with them.

Moss exploded AFTER he got away from Edwards


Coles left and then returned

[Mr. Laz]

WR's historically take the longest to develop in the NFL.

Last four years, WR's drafted after pick 15:

Santonio Holmes
Matt Jones
Mark Clayton
Roddy White
Michael Clayton
Michael Jenkins
Rashaun Woods
Bryant Johnson

Who stood out in their rookie year? Hell, who stands out NOW?
what does that have to do with the Chiefs ability to draft/develop a good one?

[OnTheWarpath15]

what does that have to do with the Chiefs ability to draft/develop a good one?

It has to do with every teams ability to draft/develop a good one.

In most cases, it takes 3+ years to start to see a return on drafting a WR in R1.

Most people here aren't looking to develop one, they're looking for someone to step in right away. That isn't likely to happen, IMO.

[Mr. Laz]

It has to do with every teams ability to draft/develop a good one.

In most cases, it takes 3+ years to start to see a return on drafting a WR in R1.

Most people here aren't looking to develop one, they're looking for someone to step in right away. That isn't likely to happen, IMO.
i'm not disagreeing with you

but i still would rather Edwards stick to what he knows

[OnTheWarpath15]

i'm not disagreeing with you

but i still would rather Edwards stick to what he knows

We're on the same page.

I would not be surpised one bit to see our R1 be Daymeion Hughes, CB, California.

[milkman]

It has to do with every teams ability to draft/develop a good one.

In most cases, it takes 3+ years to start to see a return on drafting a WR in R1.

Most people here aren't looking to develop one, they're looking for someone to step in right away. That isn't likely to happen, IMO.

Not me.

I want to draft a guy who has the chance to develop into a true #1 target by the time we get a real head coach.

3 years is perfect.

[Mr. Laz]

Not me.

I want to draft a guy who has the chance to develop into a true #1 target by the time we get a real head coach.

3 years is perfect.
in 3 years, any WR prospect could be ruined. The first 3 years are crucial.


Defensive head coaches - draft defense
Offensive Head coaches - draft offense

[2112]

Edwards did draft Santana Moss & Jerricho Cotchery, two better receivers than Vermeil found with us. Also he developed Coles.
He then let Coles go(after promising him,''as long as i'm HC,you're going to be a Jet'')..he then trades Moss for Coles(The Jets needed them both)in one of the dumbest trades ever..and Herm let Cotcherry rot on the bench in favor of Justin McCareins for 3 years..

Herm loves Defensive backs..he always said..''you can't have enough DB'S""

Like Laz said,let him stick to defense.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Not me.

I want to draft a guy who has the chance to develop into a true #1 target by the time we get a real head coach.

3 years is perfect.

I think you are the exception, not the rule. I think a lot of folks around here expect us to take Jarrett, Meacham or Bowe and have them make big contributions THIS year.

Anyway, I'd be with you, if there was a sure-fire, can't-miss out there other than Calvin Johnson.

Are Jarrett, Meacham and Bowe the next Andre Johnson, Roy Williams and Lee Evans?

Or are they the next Troy Williamson, Charles Rogers and Rashaun Woods?

I personally don't trust the Chiefs to "develop" a WR.

[Tribal Warfare]

I personally don't trust the Chiefs to "develop" a WR.


Kind of like finding a feature back after the years of RBC. Sly Morris had a chance to the "goto" guy, but got injured and faded away. Never, discount the BPA nomatter the spot.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Kind of like finding a feature back after the years of RBC. Sly Morris had a chance to the "goto" guy, but got injured and faded away. Never, discount the BPA nomatter the spot.

I don't discount the BPA theory, but who's to say the BPA will be a WR when we pick? I'm just of the opinion (and hope) that there will be a player available who can make an immediate impact at #23....

[Tribal Warfare]

I don't discount the BPA theory, but who's to say the BPA will be a WR when we pick? I'm just of the opinion (and hope) that there will be a player available who can make an immediate impact at #23....


When someone produces like Jarrett has in big games then suddenly slips it's usually due to combine/Pro Day workouts.

[milkman]

in 3 years, any WR prospect could be ruined. The first 3 years are crucial.


Defensive head coaches - draft defense
Offensive Head coaches - draft offense

Marty was here for 10 years.

Using this philosophy, we'd have really been ****ed on offense.






Oh, wait.
Never mind.

[Mecca]

It has to do with every teams ability to draft/develop a good one.

In most cases, it takes 3+ years to start to see a return on drafting a WR in R1.

Most people here aren't looking to develop one, they're looking for someone to step in right away. That isn't likely to happen, IMO.

It will most likely take about 3 years for this team to make the moves needed to really contend so what's the problem?

[Skyy God]

He then let Coles go(after promising him,''as long as i'm HC,you're going to be a Jet'')..he then trades Moss for Coles(The Jets needed them both)in one of the dumbest trades ever..and Herm let Cotcherry rot on the bench in favor of Justin McCareins for 3 years..

Herm loves Defensive backs..he always said..''you can't have enough DB'S""

Like Laz said,let him stick to defense.

This is a lot of revisionist history, at least with respect to Cotchery.

First, last year was Cotchery's 3rd, so he sat for 2. Second, the Jets traded a 2nd for McCareins. Was Herm going to play McCareins or a rookie 4th rounder? Third, how do you know he was even ready to play? WRs take time to develop.

Nice try.

[2112]

This is a lot of revisionist history, at least with respect to Cotchery.

First, last year was Cotchery's 3rd, so he sat for 2. Second, the Jets traded a 2nd for McCareins. Was Herm going to play McCareins or a rookie 4th rounder? Third, how do you know he was even ready to play? WRs take time to develop.

Nice try.
Herm told Cotcherry himself in 2005 training camp(his second year) that he was going to be involved more in the offense,not start..and once again he was full of shit...he hardly ever got involved in the offense..

So I guess it was just a fluke that 2 guys(Cotchery and B Thomas) flourished after Herm left?but were ''not ready'' for years under Herm?

I can understand that reasoning.

[Mecca]

Just for the record Bryan Thomas looks good now because he's suited to play in a 3-4. In a 4-3 he's pretty worthless......whoever made that pick for a 4-3 was pretty stupid.

[2112]

Just for the record Bryan Thomas looks good now because he's suited to play in a 3-4. In a 4-3 he's pretty worthless......whoever made that pick for a 4-3 was pretty stupid.
He was picked as a ''John Abraham Clone'' to quote Herm at the time of that draft..

That's it..sorry for the hijacking Mecca

[DaneMcCloud]

So I guess it was just a fluke that 2 guys(Cotchery and B Thomas) flourished after Herm left?but were ''not ready'' for years under Herm?I can understand that reasoning.

Well considering Cotchery was a rookie in 2004 and the Jets went through 27 QB's in 2005, it not inconcievable that he had a breakthrough in 2006 with Pennington as the starter for 17 games.

I have no idea if Herm's coaching staff can properly develop a WR but at this point, you've given me no reason to assume that it's impossible.

[Mr. Laz]

jesus fellow Chiefs fans ....... how many times do we have to learn this same lesson?

we've watch Head Coaches try and draft to fix the "other" side of the ball over and over again. It's like dumping money down a toilet and flush over and over again.

Slow and painful to watch all that money get clumped and clogged but you know it's still going down eventually.

until Carl decides to sack up and take charge, put together a personnel group that can draft on both sides of the ball, we need to just stick with the Head Coach's specialty.

[Miles]

He then let Coles go(after promising him,''as long as i'm HC,you're going to be a Jet'')..he then trades Moss for Coles(The Jets needed them both)in one of the dumbest trades ever..and Herm let Cotcherry rot on the bench in favor of Justin McCareins for 3 years..

Herm loves Defensive backs..he always said..''you can't have enough DB'S""

Like Laz said,let him stick to defense.

Cotchery broke out last season in his third year. Yeah thats not a fairly common occurrence and completely dependent on the HC.

When they let Coles "go", the Redskins made a very strong play with a lot of cash and had to give up draft picks since he was a RFA. You act like they just let him walk.

[Tribal Warfare]

jesus fellow Chiefs fans ....... how many times do we have to learn this same lesson?

we've watch Head Coaches try and draft to fix the "other" side of the ball over and over again. It's like dumping money down a toilet and flush over and over again.

Slow and painful to watch all that money get clumped and clogged but you know it's still going down eventually.

until Carl decides to sack up and take charge, put together a personnel group that can draft on both sides of the ball, we need to just stick with the Head Coach's specialty.



and reach and reach !!!!! I'll reiterate always go for the BPA

[RedThat]

so which do you trust more.....

Herm Edwards to evaluate and develop a wide receiver

or

Herm Edwards to evaluate and develop a guy for defense



since apparently our talent evaluation goes up and strength almost completely based on the strength and weaknesses of our current Head Coach i would rather Edwards just stick with what he knows.

let him build a great defense ...... then we can fire him and hire an offense Head Coach so we can start drafting offense again.

Maybe if we continue flip-flopping Head coaches we will finally be able to field a complete team.

I don't believe in that. I just think that a player that comes out of the draft is either good or not regardless whether the team he is playing for has either an offensive minded or defensive minded coach. The player either has it or not to perform in the NFL. Thats the way I look at it.

But, Im thinking about this team in general, when I look at our WR corps it needs a lot of work. I think it is one of the most questionable positions on our team. I like Kennison, I think he is a servicable receiver, but thats it. He been pretty solid, but outside of him, who do we have? Samie Parker ain't showing that he has the potential to be a dependable receiver. Dante Hall is a role player at best. Rod Gardner is basically a reject from the Skins. And I hope that the Chiefs aren't going to depend only on Jeff Webb to compete for a starting spot.

It is rare that 6th, 7th round picks become effective WRs on teams. This position is incredibly thin. And I don't care if youre a running team, eventually there comes a time when you have to drop back and pass the football, but who do we have outside of Tony G to catch the football? Teams are gonna double up Tony G most of the time anyway.
Teams aren't gonna lose sleep gameplanning on how to stop Kennison.
If we don't have anyone else reliable to make plays, I dont care what anyone says, our passing game won't be effective, and will face the consequences.

Laz, we need another guy that can make plays. And we havent had a playmaking WR here in a loooong time. Been years. WR is 1 position this team has neglected in years past. And Im at least hoping for a change there. Yeah I know Herm knows defense in all, but, I'd rather prefer the Chiefs think "team" instead of just drafting with what Herm knows best. What Im saying is, if you see a WR sitting there at 23, and he happens to be the BPA, you take the WR. You gotta think about the team, instead of what just Herm knows.

*If we don't have that WR, I think our passing game is gonna suffer a bit. We need another guy there. It always helps.

[2112]

When they let Coles "go", the Redskins made a very strong play with a lot of cash and had to give up draft picks since he was a RFA. You act like they just let him walk.


That's not correct, they didn't franchise Coles that year(don't ask me why)and Coles was the obvious choice to franchise..when asked why they didn't franchise Coles..Bradway and Herm said..''well,the Redskins weren't suppose to sign him''..the Jets got almost nothing in return when they lost Coles.

[Mecca]

That's not correct, they didn't franchise Coles that year(don't ask me why)and Coles was the obvious choice to franchise..when asked why they didn't franchise Coles..Bradway and Herm said..''well,the Redskins weren't suppose to sign him''..the Jets got almost nothing in return when they lost Coles.

Yea getting the Redskins first rounder.....that's nothing. Now blowing the pick that's your fault but you had 2 first rounders in the top 15 that year.

[Mr. Laz]

I don't believe in that. I just think that a player that comes out of the draft is either good or not regardless whether the team he is playing for has either an offensive minded or defensive minded coach.

then why has our success seem to have had a complete correlation with the Head coach?

with a defensive Head coach, our offense has always sucked. The offensive players we draft seem to never work out. Yet our defensive players seem to exceed expectations.

Enter Vermeil .......... complete reversal. The offensive players start jelling and the defensive players turn to chit.

Enter Edwards ......... boom, defense starts to step up and the league leading offense goes into the dumper. Now you can make all the excuses you want about injuries and age, but the reality is the team turns on a dime depending on what type of head coach we have.


So believe or don't believe all you want ..... but results our results. I don't want Herman Edwards dumping pick after pick down the crapper on offense(like Vermeil did on defense) just to try an make up for an inability to deal with that side of the ball.


Herm should use his eye for defensive talent and ability to develp then and draft what he knows. Give us a top 5 defense.

[2112]

Yea getting the Redskins first rounder.....that's nothing. Now blowing the pick that's your fault but you had 2 first rounders in the top 15 that year.
Ugghh..you're right..that year we traded 2 number 1 picks to move up to draft D-Slob :shake:

I'm wrong on that one.

[Brock]

So believe or don't believe all you want ..... but results our results. I don't want Herman Edwards dumping pick after pick down the crapper on offense(like Vermeil did on defense) just to try an make up for an inability to deal with that side of the ball.


Herm should use his eye for defensive talent and ability to develp then and draft what he knows. Give us a top 5 defense.

Edwards hasn't been bad at picking offensive talent either, if you want to give him credit for Santana Moss, Cotchery, Lamont Jordan and maybe a few others. His drafts have all been very defense oriented, however.

[milkman]

then why has our success seem to have had a complete correlation with the Head coach?

with a defensive Head coach, our offense has always sucked. The offensive players we draft seem to never work out. Yet our defensive players seem to exceed expectations.

Enter Vermeil .......... complete reversal. The offensive players start jelling and the defensive players turn to chit.

Enter Edwards ......... boom, defense starts to step up and the league leading offense goes into the dumper. Now you can make all the excuses you want about injuries and age, but the reality is the team turns on a dime depending on what type of head coach we have.


So believe or don't believe all you want ..... but results our results. I don't want Herman Edwards dumping pick after pick down the crapper on offense(like Vermeil did on defense) just to try an make up for an inability to deal with that side of the ball.


Herm should use his eye for defensive talent and ability to develp then and draft what he knows. Give us a top 5 defense.

I tend to think that the reason we suck on one side of the ball or the other has as much to do with the fact that the HC, whether Marty or Dick, hired crappy coordinators and coaches on the side of the ball that the HC didn't specialize in.

They (the assistants) were suckass coaches, and they couldn't evaluate talent.

[Mr. Laz]

Edwards hasn't been bad at picking offensive talent either, if you want to give him credit for Santana Moss, Cotchery, Lamont Jordan and maybe a few others. His drafts have all been very defense oriented, however.
but neither Moss,Cotchery or Jordan had real success until they got away from Edwards

Moss - Washington
Jordan - both Jets and Oakland
Cotchery - after edwards left


it's as much to do with "usage and development" as it does evaluation imo


cothery
year Team ------- GM GS REC YD Coach
2004 New York Jets 12 00 06 060 Edwards
2005 New York Jets 16 01 19 251 Edwards
2006 New York Jets 16 16 82 961 Mangini

Moss

year Team ------ GM GS REC YD Coach
2001 New York Jets 05 00 02 040 Edwards
2002 New York Jets 15 03 30 433 Edwards
2003 New York Jets 16 12 74 1105 Edwards
2004 New York Jets 15 14 45 838 Edwards
2005 Washington Re 16 16 84 1483 Gibbs
2006 Washington Re 14 14 55 790 Gibbs

Jordan
year Team -------- GM GS Ru YD Coach

2001 New York Jets 16 00 39 292 Edwards
2002 New York Jets 14 00 84 316 Edwards
2003 New York Jets 16 00 46 190 Edwards
2004 New York Jets 16 00 93 479 Edwards
2005 Oakland Raiders 14 14 272 1025 Turner
2006 Oakland Raiders 09 08 114 434 Shell

[RedThat]

then why has our success seem to have had a complete correlation with the Head coach?

with a defensive Head coach, our offense has always sucked. The offensive players we draft seem to never work out. Yet our defensive players seem to exceed expectations.

Enter Vermeil .......... complete reversal. The offensive players start jelling and the defensive players turn to chit.

Enter Edwards ......... boom, defense starts to step up and the league leading offense goes into the dumper. Now you can make all the excuses you want about injuries and age, but the reality is the team turns on a dime depending on what type of head coach we have.


So believe or don't believe all you want ..... but results our results. I don't want Herman Edwards dumping pick after pick down the crapper on offense(like Vermeil did on defense) just to try an make up for an inability to deal with that side of the ball.


Herm should use his eye for defensive talent and ability to develp then and draft what he knows. Give us a top 5 defense.

Imo, I think, usually most coaches in the league specialize on 1 side of the ball or have a different set of beliefs on how they want to build a team, or what they think is best to help them win games. I think those little things alone have an influence that shape up how a team is built, and describe "what the team is", how there gonna play. Basically, what Im saying is, it doesn't fail, most times when you get a new head coach, your team gets an identity shift. And so many things are gonna change. That just the nature of it, thats how it is when a new head coach takes over a football team.

When we had Vermeil, we were an offensive team. now that we have Herm, were a running team trying to win with a cover 2 defense. Change in belief, change in philosophy on how to win. Sure all these little things are gonna effect something in our football team? We'll gain in 1 area, drop in the next. Thats just how it is I guess?

But that is a good question you asked Laz, I don't how to answer it?Maybe when a new head coach takes over a football team he probably focuses on 1 side of the ball more than the other? thats what it seems like anyway.

Drafting though, I think, a lot of it, most of it anyway, is scouting. I don't think we have the greatest scouting staff to be honest with you. Lately we've been ok at drafting, and I hope that can continue.

But Im with on the defense. I would imagine we would have more of an advantage there. Since Herm has a defensive background. It would probably help in terms of analyzing, scouting, judging talent on that side of the ball. Im for drafting defense too. But a good football player is a good football player, regardless of where he plays. If it's defense, great. If it's offense, great. Anyway, that player can help our team, Im all for it.