Graham signs with Denver

[ClevelandBronco]

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_5370262

got him.

[ClevelandBronco]

Now, can we have Trent Green to mentor Cutler?

[unothadeal]

Sure. Can we have Champ Bailey to mentor Ty Law?

[Mile High Mania]

"The Thomas Jefferson High School graduate and former CU star signed a $30 million deal with $15 million in guaranteed money."

Good lord...

[dirk digler]

"The Thomas Jefferson High School graduate and former CU star signed a $30 million deal with $15 million in guaranteed money."

Good lord...

That was what I was thinking. That is alot of money for an average backup TE.

[ClevelandBronco]

Sure. Can we have Champ Bailey to mentor Ty Law?

Maybe. Ask again when Champ is 37.

[tk13]

Larry Johnson deserves about $40 million worth of guaranteed money in this market.

[Hammock Parties]

Larry Johnson deserves about $40 million worth of guaranteed money in this market.

Not with his knees ready to explode.

[HolmeZz]

I'm not sure why you even needed Graham.

[OnTheWarpath15]

That was what I was thinking. That is alot of money for an average backup TE.

That's a lot of money for a TE period.

$6M a year? $15M guaranteed?

To each their own.....

[DaFace]

I'm not sure why you even needed Graham.

That's kind of what I was thinking.

[OnTheWarpath15]

More than what Vernon Davis got from the Niners last year, which made him the highest paid TE in the league.......

[Logical]

Larry Johnson deserves about $40 million worth of guaranteed money in this market.Lord I hope we let him go in free agency before we give him that kind of money.:shake:

[Hammock Parties]

Lord I hope we let him go in free agency before we give him that kind of money.:shake:

Shut up bitch.

[Mile High Mania]

Well, we'll see how it all works out. I think it's a bit much on the $ side, but we'll see. Amnorix should be by soon to tell me why this is bad news.

[Hammock Parties]

Well, the Donkey Homer Force is happy about this. :rolleyes:

Antonio Gates is now the second best tight end in the AFC West. And Gonzo isn't #1 Chef trolls.

[Basileus777]

He is a very good blocker and a decent receiver, but 6 mil a year is alot for a TE that isn't anything special, especially when you have Scheffler.

[stevieray]

I'm about a year out from not taking the brunt of these stupid contracts.

[Mile High Mania]

I'm about a year out from not taking the brunt of these stupid contracts.

? Meaning, you're about a year away from not buying game tickets, etc?

[HolmeZz]

Well, the Donkey Homer Force is happy about this. :rolleyes:

Tony Gonzalez's worst year is better than Graham's best year.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Well, we'll see how it all works out. I think it's a bit much on the $ side, but we'll see. Amnorix should be by soon to tell me why this is bad news.

If you need Amnorix to tell you why paying Daniel Graham $6M a year is bad news.....

[Mile High Mania]

If you need Amnorix to tell you why paying Daniel Graham $6M a year is bad news.....

I'm just curious on the comments he'll throw out...

[BigRock]

Well, the Donkey Homer Force is happy about this. :rolleyes:
That can't be a real quote. Can it?

[Hammock Parties]

Tony Gonzalez's worst year is better than Graham's best year.

Tony Gonzalez eats pieces of shit like Daniel Graham for breakfast.

[Mile High Mania]

That can't be a real quote. Can it?

I'm sure it is... you've seen some of the crazy comments from KC fans right? All fans make crazy statements at some point.

[OnTheWarpath15]

That can't be a real quote. Can it?

From the Mane?

Probably.

[HerculesRockefell]

I'm not sure why you even needed Graham.

He's basically filling the role that Carswell had for so long, he's just faster and more athletic.

That comment about him being the best in the West is embarrassing though.

[shrek6849]

Now it's time for the annual raping of the Redskins trade.

[gcbroncos]

He is a very good blocker and a decent receiver, but 6 mil a year is alot for a TE that isn't anything special, especially when you have Scheffler.


We run a lot of 2 tight end sets and he fits us extremely well...better than most teams....he is a better than decent receiver...he has good speed and is a quite good pass catcher but you'd never know it because of Ben Watson......this signing will enable us to be more of a dual threat on running downs...scheffler is a pitiful blocker right now....

graham is considered by some the best blocking TE in the league and he was actually under-utilized in NE as of late....

6 mil is still a bit much...but who cares...it ain't my money....i just want denver to win.....

he is a big asset to our offense....

[DomCasual]

That can't be a real quote. Can it?

Bob spends more time on the Mane than most Bronco fans. He can't even post there (at least not under his own moniker), but he still parks his big ass there to lurk. If he says it was said, I probably believe it was said.

[HolmeZz]

He's basically filling the role that Carswell had for so long, he's just faster and more athletic.

Yeah, but he's not being paid like someone just filling that role.

[Hammock Parties]

He can't even post there (at least not under his own moniker), but he still parks his big ass there to lurk. .

I've posted six times in two months. I only have one account. Flame away.

[Stinger]

That can't be a real quote. Can it?

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1504265&postcount=12

[ClevelandBronco]

Tell you what guys. Y'all worry about playing us. We'll worry about paying us.

[BigRock]

All fans make crazy statements at some point.
Most definitely. But this would be one for the Crazy Hall of Fame.

[HerculesRockefell]

Yeah, but he's not being paid like someone just filling that role.

Yep, but this is the new NFL. Like the tongue-in-cheek comment about LJ getting $40M in guarantees, I'm curious what great players are going to get if they hit the market. Freeney is going to be a good example of what elite players are going to get if he signs long-term this offseason.

Back to Graham, he'll be much more active in the passing game than Carswell was. $5-6M is what I thought his deal would average, though I didn't think he'd get $15M guaranteed. Like I said here on the first day of FA, there was no question that someone would give him what he wants, we just have to wait and see if he's worth it.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Top 5 $$ for the 10-15th best TE in the league.

The market is out of control.

I think he'll be a good addition over there, but $6M per?

For a blocking TE?

[SPchief]

Bob spends more time on the Mane than most Bronco fans. He can't even post there (at least not under his own moniker), but he still parks his big ass there to lurk. If he says it was said, I probably believe it was said.


And you guys miss him so much that you've followed him over here just to talk to him.

[Steve Sewell]

That was what I was thinking. That is alot of money for an average backup TE.

Average backup TE? Or the best blocking TE in the NFL who wasn't utilized for his offensive skills because of the presence of Ben Watson?

[Stinger]

Tell you what guys. Y'all worry about playing us. We'll worry about paying us.

ROFL

You might want to worry about your D-line or lack there of first

[HerculesRockefell]

ROFL

You might want to worry about your D-line or lack there of first

Guess we just have to thank God that it's just the 5th day of FA and there's still time to address that, like in the draft when they have 4 picks on the first day.

[ClevelandBronco]

ROFL

You might want to worry about your D-line or lack there of first

"Might want to worry?" There ain't no might about it.

Hell, we passed "might want to worry" a couple seasons ago.

[Hammock Parties]

Average backup TE? Or the best blocking TE in the NFL who wasn't utilized for his offensive skills because of the presence of Ben Watson?

He's not the best blocking tight end in the league.

[DomCasual]

I've posted six times in two months. I only have one account. Flame away.

You had that quote posted here within five minutes of it being posted there. The ironic thing is that you're the king of homers. I seem to recall a thread on the Mane last offseason about Samie Parker being as good as Marvin Harrison. What's a dumber comment? Daniel Graham is better than Tony Gonzalez (granted, not the smartest comment in the world) or Samie Parker is as good as Marvin Harrison (one of the dumbest things I have ever seen posted on a football messageboard)?

Don't get me wrong - there's nothing wrong with being a homer. It's just stupid to be one whilst mocking someone else for it.

[Steve Sewell]

If you need Amnorix to tell you why paying Daniel Graham $6M a year is bad news.....

Graham lined up on the line, Scheffler in the slot, Javon Walker and Brandon Marshall at WR, Henry at RB and Cutler at QB...

What does Gunther do?

[Hammock Parties]

You had that quote posted here within five minutes of it being posted there. The ironic thing is that you're the king of homers. I seem to recall a thread on the Mane last offseason about Samie Parker being as good as Marvin Harrison. What's a dumber comment? Daniel Graham is better than Tony Gonzalez (granted, not the smartest comment in the world) or Samie Parker is as good as Marvin Harrison (one of the dumbest things I have ever seen posted on a football messageboard)?

Don't get me wrong - there's nothing wrong with being a homer. It's just stupid to be one whilst mocking someone else for it.

I never said Parker was as good as Harrison. And yes, I do lurk alot, so I saw that quote. I wasn't refuting that.

[DomCasual]

And you guys miss him so much that you've followed him over here just to talk to him.
Or we've come over here because the Mane crashes every time we make a significant offseason move.

This is one place where we don't have to worry about that, at least. :)

[HolmeZz]

Top 5 $$ for the 10-15th best TE in the league.

He's about 15th off the top of my head. Probably a little lower if I looked further.

[ClevelandBronco]

Graham lined up on the line, Scheffler in the slot, Javon Walker and Brandon Marshall at WR, Henry at RB and Cutler at QB...

What does Gunther do?

This is a trick question. No one knows what Gunther does.

[Hammock Parties]

Graham lined up on the line, Scheffler in the slot, Javon Walker and Brandon Marshall at WR, Henry at RB and Cutler at QB...

What does Gunther do?

Let Hali eat Cutler's lunch.

[Chiefs Pantalones]

Now if only Cutler can throw to him without it getting picked off. :)

[DomCasual]

I never said Parker was as good as Harrison. And yes, I do lurk alot, so I saw that quote. I wasn't refuting that.

Sometime when it won't take two hours on the Mane to search for it (with plenty of error messages in the process), I'll find it and post a link for you. The great thing about the Internet is that your dumbassery is archived for situations just like this one.

[Garcia Bronco]

Get used to seeing these kind of deals. After the sticker shocker wears away...you'll see that this is a good deal. This guy can block like dunn with better speed and better hands, is he TG...**** no..but he's smarter...that much is for sure.

[OnTheWarpath15]

He's about 15th off the top of my head. Probably a little lower if I looked further.

Lemme guess. In no particular order:

Gonzo
Gates
Crumpler
Heap
Shockey
Davis
Winslow
Witten
Clark
Cooley
McMichael


That's 11. Who am I missing?

[Hammock Parties]

Sometime when it won't take two hours on the Mane to search for it (with plenty of error messages in the process), I'll find it and post a link for you. The great thing about the Internet is that your dumbassery is archived for situations just like this one.

The great thing is that I know exactly what I said, and there was nothing homeristic about it.

[HolmeZz]

Lemme guess. In no particular order:

Gonzo
Gates
Crumpler
Heap
Shockey
Davis
Winslow
Witten
Clark
Cooley
McMichael


That's 13. Who am I missing?

LJ Smith, Heath Miller, and Ben Watson.

[milkman]

Graham lined up on the line, Scheffler in the slot, Javon Walker and Brandon Marshall at WR, Henry at RB and Cutler at QB...

What does Gunther do?

Scatch his ass and flip off a Donkey fan.

[Amnorix]

Well, we'll see how it all works out. I think it's a bit much on the $ side, but we'll see. Amnorix should be by soon to tell me why this is bad news.

Pats offered him about $4M/year per the rumor mill, but he wanted to test the market, and 5-6M/year was sort of the expectation, and this falls roughly in line with that.

He's a legitimate, starting NFL TE, and will make some unbelievable catches. He will also drop some stunningly easy ones. It's really very strange. He can make the hard look easy and the easy look hard. He can be a beast with the ball in his hands in the open field.

Pats usually just used him as a blocker, and he is a top tier blocker for a Tight End.

He does tend to miss more time than you might like due to injuries. Usually nothing severe, but he always seems to be suffering from something or other, which costs him playing time.

He is reasonably young - he's on the right side of 30.

He went to Colorado, so this is a homecoming.

errr....can't think what else to say. Good player. Very solid contributor. He'll help you win games with his blocking but won't remind anyone of Shannon Sharpe in terms of catching the ball. Good all-around guy to have on any team.

[Steve Sewell]

He's not the best blocking tight end in the league.

Many with actual football knowledge would say otherwise. But humor me...name some TE's that are better.

[Mile High Mania]

We'll find out soon if he's worth the crazy cash... it's not my money, so they can feel free to go wild.

I'm guessing the draft will be all defense.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I've got LJ Smith up there too.

Yep. That's 12. Miscounted the first post.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Yep. That's 12. Miscounted the first post.

EDIT: Heath Miller, Ben Watson.

14.

[Garcia Bronco]

"Davis
Winslow
Witten
Clark
Cooley
McMichael"

reach...none of these guys have the all around game like Graham.

[Chiefs Pantalones]

Get used to seeing these kind of deals. After the sticker shocker wears away...you'll see that this is a good deal. This guy can block like dunn with better speed and better hands, is he TG...**** no..but he's smarter...that much is for sure.

ROFL That's kind of reaching for something isn't it?

But but but...he's smarter...yeah, that's it...he's smarter!!!!

LOL, I love Donkey fans. I hope you were kidding with that.

[HolmeZz]

"Davis
Winslow
Witten
Clark
Cooley
McMichael"

reach...none of these guys have the all around game like Graham.

You're silly if you'd take Graham over any of them.

[|Zach|]

Graham lined up on the line, Scheffler in the slot, Javon Walker and Brandon Marshall at WR, Henry at RB and Cutler at QB...

What does Gunther do?
It is the NFL, you see the talent you have listed above week in and week out.

[Steve Sewell]

Let Hali eat Cutler's lunch.

Hali would just overrun the pitch out to Henry with subsequent cutback like every other KC DE has been doing for years.

[Amnorix]

graham is considered by some the best blocking TE in the league and he was actually under-utilized in NE as of late....

Agreed that he is a top-notch blocker. Definitely NOT underutilized. He was our starter, and we run tons and tons of 2 TE sets. He's an inconsistent catcher, is one thing you'll note. He'll catch some hard ones and drop some easy ones that will make you scream.

he is a big asset to our offense....

He could be, especially as a top-flight blocker and occasional pass-catcher. I will note that he can be a beast in the open field when the mood strikes.

[Hammock Parties]

Many with actual football knowledge would say otherwise. But humor me...name some TE's that are better.

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/1170/117451mkd7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Amnorix]

Tell you what guys. Y'all worry about playing us. We'll worry about paying us.

Didn't the NFL let you do that once before, which ended up with y'all cheating your way to a Super Bowl win?

Just saying...

[Steve Sewell]

It is the NFL, you see the talent you have listed above week in and week out.

So you're saying that the list I provided is just average NFL talent? Give me a break...

[HolmeZz]

It is the NFL, you see the talent you have listed above week in and week out.

Yeah, somehow Cutler, Graham, Henry, Scheffler, and Marshall are scary offensive players. ROFL

[Hammock Parties]

Hali would just overrun the pitch out to Henry with subsequent cutback like every other KC DE has been doing for years.

Get your facts straight. Last year KC's defense dominated Denver's offense.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Agreed that he is a top-notch blocker. Definitely NOT underutilized. He was our starter, and we run tons and tons of 2 TE sets. He's an inconsistent catcher, is one thing you'll note. He'll catch some hard ones and drop some easy ones that will make you scream.



He could be, especially as a top-flight blocker and occasional pass-catcher. I will note that he can be a beast in the open field when the mood strikes.

So, in a nutshell, he's the blocking version of Jerramy Stevens?

[ClevelandBronco]

It is the NFL, you see the talent you have listed above week in and week out.

Yes, we will. Fortunately for you, you'll only see that kind of talent twice a year.

[|Zach|]

So you're saying that the list I provided is just average NFL talent? Give me a break...
I am not saying they are bad but...just naming those players? Was that supposed to wow us?

This is the NFL.

The talent level of Denver's offense is something this Chiefs team will see a lot this upcoming season.

[Amnorix]

Average backup TE? Or the best blocking TE in the NFL who wasn't utilized for his offensive skills because of the presence of Ben Watson?

*cough* You did note that we were winning SBs before Watson was even drafted, and that Graham wasn't setting the world on fire with his receiving then either, right?

Here's the thing -- on any given play he can only EITHER block or catch. He can't really do both on the same play. The more you want him to be the great blocker that he is, the less chances he will have to catch it.

One rumor here is that he left partly because he wants to do more than just block a helluva lot, which may likely be true.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Yes, we will. Fortunately for you, you'll only see that kind of talent twice a year.

Yep. When we play Sandy Eggo.

[ClevelandBronco]

Didn't the NFL let you do that once before, which ended up with y'all cheating your way to a Super Bowl win?

Just saying...

It's all good. They let us keep the rings and all.

[Steve Sewell]

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/1170/117451mkd7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

OK now we want to talk about who is a homer? My god man get a clue.

[OnTheWarpath15]

*cough* You did note that we were winning SBs before Watson was even drafted, and that Graham wasn't setting the world on fire with his receiving then either, right?

If memory serves, he's never broken the 40 catch barrier in a season.

With or without Watson on the roster.

[Garcia Bronco]

ROFL That's kind of reaching for something isn't it?

But but but...he's smarter...yeah, that's it...he's smarter!!!!

LOL, I love Donkey fans. I hope you were kidding with that.

He's smarter because TG is too stupid to leave the Chiefs for a winner, or at least a team with half a chance. What do you think Gonzo would get on the open market? I think he would net 20 million in bonus money alone. You guys are lucky to have him...else you would really suck.

[dirk digler]

Average backup TE? Or the best blocking TE in the NFL who wasn't utilized for his offensive skills because of the presence of Ben Watson?

He is an average all-round TE. Very good blocker not the greatest receiver = average

[beer bacon]

Or we've come over here because the Mane crashes every time we make a significant offseason move.

This is one place where we don't have to worry about that, at least. :)

Not every team can sign the best RB in the league and the best blocking TE in the league :(

[Steve Sewell]

I am not saying they are bad but...just naming those players? Was that supposed to wow us?

This is the NFL.

The talent level of Denver's offense is something this Chiefs team will see a lot this upcoming season.

I think some of you guys stopped watching any Broncos games once Cutler started playing is my guess...

[HolmeZz]

OK now we want to talk about who is a homer? My god man get a clue.

Jason Dunn is a force.

[OnTheWarpath15]

He's smarter because TG is too stupid to leave the Chiefs for a winner, or at least a team with half a chance. What do you think Gonzo would get on the open market? I think he would net 20 million in bonus money alone. You guys are lucky to have him...else you would really suck.

He got 17 in bonus money from us.

I'm sure he's really upset over that 3 million.

[Hammock Parties]

OK now we want to talk about who is a homer? My god man get a clue.

Get a clue? How about you take your own advice. Jason Dunn is a beast in the running game. He's widely considered the best run blocking tight end in the league. He's basically a sixth offensive lineman.

[beer bacon]

Hali would just overrun the pitch out to Henry with subsequent cutback like every other KC DE has been doing for years.

With Hali starting last season, the Broncos scored 19 points in two games against us. Domination.

[|Zach|]

I think some of you guys stopped watching any Broncos games once Cutler started playing is my guess...
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/football/061231/f123195A.jpg

[Amnorix]

"Davis
Winslow
Witten
Clark
Cooley
McMichael"

reach...none of these guys have the all around game like Graham.


Welll....I won't pretend that I focus on the blocking skills of tight ends around the league, but some of those guys are better receivers, overall, than Graham. McMichael certainly is.

Graham can be a beast in the field, but on occasion he has some beastly drops. And I'm thinking that the Pats decided to use him as a blocker most of the time for good reason.

[HolmeZz]

I think some of you guys stopped watching any Broncos games once Cutler started playing is my guess...

Nah, I think we all watched you guys choke away that home game to the Niners.

[Chiefs Pantalones]

He's smarter because TG is too stupid to leave the Chiefs for a winner, or at least a team with half a chance. What do you think Gonzo would get on the open market? I think he would net 20 million in bonus money alone. You guys are lucky to have him...else you would really suck.

I'm glad we have Gonzo.

And I'm glad you have Cutler to throw balls to our secondary.

Can't wait. :)

[Hammock Parties]

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/football/061231/f123195A.jpg

ICE BURN!!!!!!!!!

[Garcia Bronco]

You're silly if you'd take Graham over any of them.

bullshit..all those guys are pretending...and all of them Houdini...because the like to disappear.

[dirk digler]

He's smarter because TG is too stupid to leave the Chiefs for a winner, or at least a team with half a chance. What do you think Gonzo would get on the open market? I think he would net 20 million in bonus money alone. You guys are lucky to have him...else you would really suck.

I like the fact that Tony or any other player would want to play on just 1 team their whole pro career.

[Chiefs Pantalones]

Welll....I won't pretend that I focus on the blocking skills of tight ends around the league, but some of those guys are better receivers, overall, than Graham. McMichael certainly is.

Graham can be a beast in the field, but on occasion he has some beastly drops. And I'm thinking that the Pats decided to use him as a blocker most of the time for good reason.

Watson is alot better than Graham, IMO, don't you think so?

[|Zach|]

I don't even think Cutler is bad...that post just...made me laugh. Listing those names like some epic post was taking place...and the melodramatic... "What is Gunther going to do?"

Bwahahaha

[OnTheWarpath15]

I think some of you guys stopped watching any Broncos games once Cutler started playing is my guess...

I watched him long enough to remind me of Jake Plummer.

That Seattle game was fantastic.

He beat up on the Arizona Cardinals.

Wow.

[BigRock]

Get a clue? How about you take your own advice. Jason Dunn is a beast in the running game. He's widely considered the best run blocking tight end in the league. He's basically a sixth offensive lineman.
$5 says he thought that picture was Tony Gonzalez.

[Mile High Mania]

*cough* You did note that we were winning SBs before Watson was even drafted, and that Graham wasn't setting the world on fire with his receiving then either, right?

Here's the thing -- on any given play he can only EITHER block or catch. He can't really do both on the same play. The more you want him to be the great blocker that he is, the less chances he will have to catch it.

One rumor here is that he left partly because he wants to do more than just block a helluva lot, which may likely be true.


Yeah, there's an article online at either the Post or RMN where he says his #'s aren't huge b/c NE used him more as a blocker and he wants to be involved more as an actual receiving TE. That was a red flag to me b/c I like the rapport b/t Cutler and Scheffler.

We'll see what happens. I like Graham and I think he has so much to offer, but a lot of that appears to be the type of stuff that he didn't like doing so much of in NE. So, who knows.

[Amnorix]

If memory serves, he's never broken the 40 catch barrier in a season.

With or without Watson on the roster.

That's probably about right.

Don't get carried away with his genius either. It's established, I believe, that he couldn't master the harder of the two TE positions that the Patriots have in their offensive. One is the X and the other the H, or somesuch (I'm in offseason mode and it's late and I'm stupid, I'll admit). One reaosn why Watson was brought in was because Graham couldn't master the one that involved the more complicated changes in sets and adjustments on the fly as a receiver.

Perhaps in a simpler offense (but I wouldn't think Denver's is simpler?!) he might do better as a receiver.

But, of course, Shanarat is no dummy, so I'd think he knows WTF he wants to dow ith Graham and whether he can handle that job or not.

[Steve Sewell]

*cough* You did note that we were winning SBs before Watson was even drafted, and that Graham wasn't setting the world on fire with his receiving then either, right?

Here's the thing -- on any given play he can only EITHER block or catch. He can't really do both on the same play. The more you want him to be the great blocker that he is, the less chances he will have to catch it.

One rumor here is that he left partly because he wants to do more than just block a helluva lot, which may likely be true.

Thats not a rumor, he actually said that about his role with the Pats to a Denver reporter, BTW. He wants to be utilized more for his offensive skills.

And I do know that you won a SB before you arrived. I don't know what the relevance of that comment was to my statement. It's not like I was attributing the Pats success to Graham alone.

I've been watching him for quite some time (Buff fan) and he definitely has offensive skills...a lot more than your run of the mill blocking TE. Add to that he is an very, very good blocker, and it makes him a really good fit for the Denver offense. Watson eclipses him in offensive category...he's incredible.

[ClevelandBronco]

I like the fact that Tony or any other player would want to play on just 1 team their whole pro career.

Especially when they're as good as Gonzo. It just feels uncomfortable the first time you see them in the wrong uniform.

Jerry Rice just never looked right as a Raider.

[dirk digler]

I think some of you guys stopped watching any Broncos games once Cutler started playing is my guess...

Yeah I watched the Chargers crush your team 48-20. Man Cutler looked awesome during that game.

I mean that whopping 188 yds passing was just incredible.

[Steve Sewell]

Get your facts straight. Last year KC's defense dominated Denver's offense.

You're comparing apples to oranges. I was referring to a period of many years. Denver didn't have the firepower last year.

[Amnorix]

Watson is alot better than Graham, IMO, don't you think so?

Receiving? Yes. And understanding the offense overall as well. Watson is basically brilliant -- he was like a biology major at Georgia and scored a 46 or somesuch absurd number on the standard test they do before the draft. The wonderlic or whatever the heck it is.

Graham's the better blocker, but Watson isn't asked to block as much either, so he has less experience at it.

Watson is faster and more athletic. Watson si basically a physical freak. We all saw that when he ran down Champ Bailey. He did a 4.4 40 and had more reps at 225 than our other 1st round pick that year -- Vince Wilfork!

*and no, NFL players don't take 'roids, honest...

[Steve Sewell]

With Hali starting last season, the Broncos scored 19 points in two games against us. Domination.

So, do you attribute this turnaround exclusively to Hali or something?

[beer bacon]

You're comparing apples to oranges. I was referring to a period of many years. Denver didn't have the firepower last year.

Your original comment was about Hali. During the only season Hali has been on our team, our defense kicked the crap out of your offense.

[Garcia Bronco]

That era of guys spending their whole career some place is about over...one or two guys a team...but that's it.

[dirk digler]

Especially when they're as good as Gonzo. It just feels uncomfortable the first time you see them in the wrong uniform.

Jerry Rice just never looked right as a Raider.

Yep. Just like it was seeing Montana as a Chief or if Elway was with some other team at the end.

I truly appreciate the fact the Tony wants to stay here for the reminder of his career even if we suck.

[Mile High Mania]

Cutler had a pretty normal rookie performance after being named the starter in the second half of the season. Overall, his #'s weren't bad. But, she showed lots of promise while making rookie mistakes.

I think he'll have a very nice 2nd season in this offense with a retooled look.

[Steve Sewell]

Nah, I think we all watched you guys choke away that home game to the Niners.

Which allowed your team to stay true to form and crap the bed in the playoffs.

[ClevelandBronco]

...Watson si basically a physical freak. We all saw that when he ran down Champ Bailey....

And blew up Champ Bailey. I thought they were going to have to bag the man.

[Amnorix]

You're comparing apples to oranges. I was referring to a period of many years. Denver didn't have the firepower last year.

I'm being honest here -- Graham isn't going to terrorize defenses unless he has something the entire Patriots staff has missed the last 5 years. He's nowhere near an elite, pro bowl type TE. Could he block less and catch, say, 70-80 balls and be very solid? Sure. But he's not going to be a Gonzo, Sharpe, Newsome, Ditka, Gates or whatever. Not even close.

He's a piece to the puzzle to having a good, balanced offense. He's not going to set your world on fire.

[HolmeZz]

Which allowed your team to stay true to form and crap the bed in the playoffs.

Eh. We've given the Colts better playoff games than you guys have. :)

[dirk digler]

Cutler had a pretty normal rookie performance after being named the starter in the second half of the season. Overall, his #'s weren't bad. But, she showed lots of promise while making rookie mistakes.

I think he'll have a very nice 2nd season in this offense with a retooled look.

Not worried about the dreaded sophomore slump?

[Mile High Mania]

Eh. We've given the Colts better playoff games than you guys have. :)

End results were losses for both...

[ClevelandBronco]

Which allowed your team to stay true to form and crap the bed in the playoffs.

True, but after that smoking turd we left on our own field the week before, I don't think we get to deliver playoff smack. We lose that pissing match at the gate.

[Amnorix]

And blew up Champ Bailey. I thought they were going to have to bag the man.

He's got what? 40+ pounds on him and is immensely isnanely strong.

The inbounds/out-of-bounds thing was really unfortunate. I wonder what would've happened if the refs had called it out of the back of the end zone. Unfortunately, we couldn't get out of our own way that game, so I'm sure we would've fumbled it again or soemthing. Ah well, nice to dream.

[Steve Sewell]

I'm being honest here -- Graham isn't going to terrorize defenses unless he has something the entire Patriots staff has missed the last 5 years. He's nowhere near an elite, pro bowl type TE. Could he block less and catch, say, 70-80 balls and be very solid? Sure. But he's not going to be a Gonzo, Sharpe, Newsome, Ditka, Gates or whatever. Not even close.

He's a piece to the puzzle to having a good, balanced offense. He's not going to set your world on fire.

I don't think any of us here said he would. But, he fits our offense perfectly, especially with all the 2 TE sets that we run.

[Amnorix]

Night all

[Chiefs Pantalones]

Cutler had a pretty normal rookie performance after being named the starter in the second half of the season. Overall, his #'s weren't bad. But, she showed lots of promise while making rookie mistakes.

I think he'll have a very nice 2nd season in this offense with a retooled look.

We're just giving you shit, I'm sure he's going to give us fits for years to come.

[Mile High Mania]

Not worried about the dreaded sophomore slump?

Always, but he appears to have his head screwed on right and they're improving the weapons around him. Hell, he's learning fast how to make his Oline happy. Cutler took them all on a trip to Costa Rica recently... the kid is making a good impression and he had some impressive moments in 2006.

[Mile High Mania]

We're just giving you shit, I'm sure he's going to give us fits for years to come.

I expect nothing less. :clap:

[Steve Sewell]

True, but after that smoking turd we left on our own field the week before, I don't think we get to deliver playoff smack. We lose that pissing match at the gate.

I don't like running playoff smack. This thread has devolved from talking about the value of Dan Graham...Bronco fans think it's great...Chief fans think the guy is average and not worth the money...it's probably somewhere in between.

[Garcia Bronco]

Hali was way above for a rookie this year

[dirk digler]

Always, but he appears to have his head screwed on right and they're improving the weapons around him. Hell, he's learning fast how to make his Oline happy. Cutler took them all on a trip to Costa Rica recently... the kid is making a good impression and he had some impressive moments in 2006.

Damn that is nice.

Impressive

[Hammock Parties]

$5 says he thought that picture was Tony Gonzalez.

Probably. He's dumb.

[Mile High Mania]

Bronco fans think it's great...Chief fans think the guy is average and not worth the money...it's probably somewhere in between.

You've just summed up every "rival fan debate/conversation" on any sports site. Everyone agrees to disagree and walks away muttering the other guy is stupid under their breath.

:)

[dirk digler]

I don't like running playoff smack. This thread has devolved from talking about the value of Dan Graham...Bronco fans think it's great...Chief fans think the guy is average and not worth the money...it's probably somewhere in between.

To be honest it is a solid signing and he probably got what he should have in this current market. I mean you look at what some of these very, very average OL FA's are getting it is ridiculous and the sad thing none of them have ever sniffed the Pro Bowl.

[SPchief]

You've just summed up every "rival fan debate/conversation" on any sports site. Everyone agrees to disagree and walks away muttering the other guy is stupid under their breath.

:)



That never happens here.

[Garcia Bronco]

I have read a couple of posts dogging Cutler...I know deep down this is QB envy on upside alone. If the guy stays healthy, Shanahan is going to grow him into a winner. He did it with Elway...he did it with freakin Jake Plummer....This kid is going to be good. The measurables are all there

[Mile High Mania]

Shanahan was on the right track with Griese, but the guy had some personal demons to deal with... he seems more mature now.

[ClevelandBronco]

I don't like running playoff smack. This thread has devolved from talking about the value of Dan Graham...Bronco fans think it's great...Chief fans think the guy is average and not worth the money...it's probably somewhere in between.

Well, I think that the Broncos' running game has sputtered, in part, because we lost Carswell. Looks like we got him back, but with a pretty good pair of hands and the added potential of a dangerous set of legs in the open field.

That's the news, and the news is good.

[Mile High Mania]

That never happens here.

Agreed.



(jackass)

[Mile High Mania]

Yeah, if Graham is everything that everyone says he is as a blocking TE ... add in our new FB with our new RB and I'm digging the potential of having a truly dominant ground game again. And, I mean "single back dominant".

If Graham and Scheffler can combine for 85 receptions 1,100 yards and 12 TDs ... greatness baby.

[dirk digler]

Well, I think that the Broncos' running game has sputtered, in part, because we lost Carswell. Looks like we got him back, but with a pretty good pair of hands and the added potential of a dangerous set of legs in the open field.

That's the news, and the news is good.

That could be but I think he has more to do with the fact that you really haven't had a good RB since Portis.

[Mile High Mania]

Portis was the last "real deal" we had at RB regarding a dominating workhorse. The others have been nice and done well, but I'm ready to see Henry kick some ass.

[Mile High Mania]

Ok, carry on... I'm going to put my large cranium on my pillow and snore.

[ClevelandBronco]

That could be but I think he has more to do with the fact that you really haven't had a good RB since Portis.

Yeah, but that might have changed this week too.

Unless Mr. Henry decides to throw a signing party. Then all bets are off.

[Chiefs Pantalones]

KFFL reports the Chiefs have agreed to trade Trent Green to the Broncos for Jay Cutler.

[Hammock Parties]

KFFL reports the Chiefs have agreed to trade Trent Green to the Broncos for Jay Cutler.

Nice deal. We need a younger backup for Brodie.

[ClevelandBronco]

KFFL reports the Chiefs have agreed to trade Trent Green to the Broncos for Jay Cutler.

I hope you got a couple of first day picks. Cutler's done shit in this league so far.

[Rausch]

Nice deal. We need a younger backup for Brodie.

And the Bronco's didn't need a pass catching TE, evidenced by*the signing of Graham.

[HerculesRockefell]

Not worried about the dreaded sophomore slump?

I'll admit I am, but I wouldn't call it a sophomore slump since he only started 5 games last year. I still expect some "rookie" mistakes through most of next year.

I was happy with how he played though, he had the best numbers among all the rookie QBs on a per game average.

[Halfcan]

Never thought he was that great-I hope he can catch passes at his feet where Cuntler will be throwing them.

[HerculesRockefell]

Eh. We've given the Colts better playoff games than you guys have. :)

Never been around more ignorant fans than I was at that 2nd playoff game in Indy. It was only followed closely by the Ravens fans that were around me at a Den-Balt game I saw in Baltimore.

[Taco John]

And the Bronco's didn't need a pass catching TE, evidenced by*the signing of Graham.



I don't personally see Graham as a need. I see him as a toy for Shanahan's two tight-end offense.

[SPchief]

I don't personally see Graham as a need. I see him as a toy for Shanahan's two tight-end offense.


"The Thomas Jefferson High School graduate and former CU star signed a $30 million deal with $15 million in guaranteed money."

So do you like wasting all that money on a toy?

[Taco John]

"The Thomas Jefferson High School graduate and former CU star signed a $30 million deal with $15 million in guaranteed money."

So do you like wasting all that money on a toy?



Who said anything about wasting that money? And what do I care about the Broncos salary cap anyway?

[Hammock Parties]

Never been around more ignorant fans than I was at that 2nd playoff game in Indy.

Ignorant Colts fans, eh? Were they scared of Denver or something?

[DomCasual]

"The Thomas Jefferson High School graduate and former CU star signed a $30 million deal with $15 million in guaranteed money."

So do you like wasting all that money on a toy?

I love this kind of comment. I admire you for being a fan of a frugal team. It shows great restraint on your part. :rolleyes:

Every time our owner opens his checkbook, I think, "Damn you! Why can't you run your organization more like the Chiefs? It would be nice to have something in SAVINGS every once in awhile!"

Seriously, good job with that. ROFL

[SPchief]

I love this kind of comment. I admire you for being a fan of a frugal team. It shows great restraint on your part. :rolleyes:

Every time our owner opens his checkbook, I think, "Damn you! Why can't you run your organization more like the Chiefs? It would be nice to have something in SAVINGS every once in awhile!"

Seriously, good job with that. ROFL



I was commenting on TJ's post about him not seeing Graham as a need. Why waste the money if he isn't needed?

[listopencil]

That's probably about right.

Don't get carried away with his genius either. It's established, I believe, that he couldn't master the harder of the two TE positions that the Patriots have in their offensive. One is the X and the other the H, or somesuch (I'm in offseason mode and it's late and I'm stupid, I'll admit). One reaosn why Watson was brought in was because Graham couldn't master the one that involved the more complicated changes in sets and adjustments on the fly as a receiver.



Yep. I've seen some write ups and charts of one of the Pats' playbook (what I was allowed to see) and it was incredibly complex. I was impressed.

[DomCasual]

I was commenting on TJ's post about him not seeing Graham as a need. Why waste the money if he isn't needed?

I understand, but I have seen a lot of that sentiment here the last few days. I think Shanahan is looking at next year and seeing one stud WR (Walker), a young guy with "upside" (Marshall), a gimpy third WR (Smith - had hip surgery today and is out 4-months minimum), and a top-notch pass catching TE (Scheffler) that can't block worth a lick. With Graham, you get a great blocking TE that is underrated as a pass catcher. Having a guy like Graham takes a lot of the pressure in the running game off of Scheffler, and a lot of the pressure in the passing game off of Marshall. You'll see a lot of two tight-end stuff next year, because the two tight end formations won't be all that different than the 4 WR formations, skill-wise.

So, in other words, I think Shanahan sees it as a need.

Personally, I would have probably bumped the offer for Kerney, because our pass rush is abysmal. But what do I know?

[FDS]

Bigfoot is going to want a raise.

PBJ FirstDownSamie PBJ

[SPchief]

Bigfoot is going to want a raise.

Parker Sucks


Who?

[SPchief]

whoa..

test

Parker Sucks

[FDS]

Those clits aren't going to suck themselves. Gee lets hope not.

PBJ FirstDownSamie PBJ

[ClevelandBronco]

Those clits aren't going to suck themselves. Gee lets hope not.

Parker Sucks

That's far and away the defining post of the offseason.

Congratulations.

Now stop bothering those of us who wish to talk (or just read) about football.

[FDS]

That's far and away the defining post of the offseason.

Congratulations.

Now stop bothering those of us who wish to talk (or just read) about football.

Dipshit

PBJ FirstDownSamie PBJ

[ClevelandBronco]

Dipshit

Exactly what I meant. Thanks for summing it up.

[FDS]

Exactly what I meant. Thanks for summing it up.


ClevelandBronco=ClevelandSteamer=no respect

dipshit

PBJ FirstDownSamie PBJ

[ClevelandBronco]

ClevelandBronco=ClevelandSteamer=no respect

dipshit

Parker Sucks

I'm enjoying your posts as well. Is there much of a problem with iceheads where you live? Just curious..

[CupidStunt]

$30 mil for a blocking TE (whose never played 16 games his entire career)? Hahahahaha.

[CupidStunt]

You guys are lucky to have him...else you would really suck.

Sounds like you and that dirty scheme.

At least we're kept above "really suck" by a legitimate player.

[The Bad Guy]

So you're saying that the list I provided is just average NFL talent? Give me a break...

What's so special about Javon Walker, Brandon Marshall, Daniel Graham or Scheffler?

Seriously? You act like they are the Rams of 1999.

Besides Walker, not one of them have put up superstar numbers ever.

Every ****ing year we hear this from Bronco fans. They throw a ton of money at some offensive player that's supposed to put them over the edge. Last year it was Walker, this year it's Graham.

[Amnorix]

Yep. I've seen some write ups and charts of one of the Pats' playbook (what I was allowed to see) and it was incredibly complex. I was impressed.


The Pats offense is among the most complex in the NFL. Not a shocker given BB, etc., but I don't think most casual fans realize that our offense, just like our defense, is incredibly complex.

One downside is that it doesn't allow easy assimilation of WRs. Guys like Donald Hayes and Bethel Johnson just can't figure out WTF they're doing out there.

[2112]

The Pats offense is among the most complex in the NFL. Not a shocker given BB, etc., but I don't think most casual fans realize that our offense, just like our defense, is incredibly complex.

One downside is that it doesn't allow easy assimilation of WRs. Guys like Donald Hayes and Bethel Johnson just can't figure out WTF they're doing out there.
Not for nothing..but that offense is the same offense Vinny Testaverde had his best season in 1998..and he's one of the dumbest QB's in recent history.
It's not as complex as the west coast offense,or the Al Saunders/San Diego shifting crap..and Brady has that love bracelet on so he knows what plays to call.

[Simply Red]

Not for nothing..but that offense is the same offense Vinny Testaverde had his best season in 1998..and he's one of the dumbest QB's in recent history.
It's not as complex as the west coast offense,or the Al Saunders/San Diego shifting crap..and Brady has that love bracelet on so he knows what plays to call.

what is a "love-bracelet?" :(

[2112]

what is a "love-bracelet?" :(
He has all the plays in a special bracelet on his wrist...it's on his left wrist
http://198.65.234.129/gallery/albums/2005_regular_season/AP_tom_brady_yells_at_ref_8654644.sized.jpg

[Infidel Goat]

"The Thomas Jefferson High School graduate and former CU star signed a $30 million deal with $15 million in guaranteed money."

Good lord...


When I read this quote, my initial reaction wasn't "That's a lot of money." My initial reaction was "he must be a smart SOB if he went to Thomas Jefferson High School," if it's the one I'm thinking of in Virginia. It's arguably the best academic high school in the country.

I wonder what he scored on the wonderlic...

[Mile High Mania]

Graham played high shool, college and now NFL ball in Denver.

[Eleazar]

Lot of money for a guy who caught 20 balls last year.

[Amnorix]

Not for nothing..but that offense is the same offense Vinny Testaverde had his best season in 1998..and he's one of the dumbest QB's in recent history.
It's not as complex as the west coast offense,or the Al Saunders/San Diego shifting crap..and Brady has that love bracelet on so he knows what plays to call.

Sure. Dumb QBs always last 20 years.

What you fail to distinguish is between pre-snap and post-snap adjustments. Post-snap are often harder, and the QB and WRs need to be on the same page. The Pats offense have probably about an average number of pre-snap and quite alot of post-snap adjustments.

I cannot begin to tell you how many times Patriots beat reporters have written so-and-so "is having trouble picking up the Patriots complex offensive scheme" in connection with some rookie or FA acquisition.

The Gruden shift, shift, and then shift some more, is a different type of offense entirely, also very complex. I'd say the super-shfiting offenses can be more complex, yes, but the Pats are above-average in overall complexity.

[Hammock Parties]

Sure. Dumb QBs always last 20 years.

LMAO

Gotta love Jets and Pats fans arguing over Vinny Testaverde. Hell, he was a Jet for a lot longer than he was a Patriot...

[Mile High Mania]

Lot of money for a guy who caught 20 balls last year.

Gotta think "big picture" man... you're not wearing the correctly shaded sunglasses. :drool:

[Amnorix]

LMAO

Gotta love Jets and Pats fans arguing over Vinny Testaverde. Hell, he was a Jet for a lot longer than he was a Patriot...


I could give a rat's ass about Vinny. Seriously. A cup of coffee with the Pats doesn't exactly make him a Patriot. The argument is about Pats offensive playbook and it's complexity. I find it hard to believe that Vinny was that dumb, given his lengthy career.

[Mile High Mania]

I could give a rat's ass about...

Off topic, this comment has always made me wonder what the hell it means. I've said it often, but what is the origin of this phrase?

I mean I've said it, but it's not like I carry around a bag of rat's asses to give each time I say it. Anyone know where this comment started?

I've also heard it used as "I could give..." or "I couldn't give..."

And, "rat's ass" has been replaced with "two shits" and other things from time to time.

Thoughts?

[2112]

Sure. Dumb QBs always last 20 years.

What you fail to distinguish is between pre-snap and post-snap adjustments. Post-snap are often harder, and the QB and WRs need to be on the same page. The Pats offense have probably about an average number of pre-snap and quite alot of post-snap adjustments.

I cannot begin to tell you how many times Patriots beat reporters have written so-and-so "is having trouble picking up the Patriots complex offensive scheme" in connection with some rookie or FA acquisition.

The Gruden shift, shift, and then shift some more, is a different type of offense entirely, also very complex. I'd say the super-shfiting offenses can be more complex, yes, but the Pats are above-average in overall complexity.
Look,Vinny was a dumb QB..what does longevity have to do with his brains?

A complex offensive scheme that is designed by a 32 year old OC?

The Patriots offense is not that complex..they just aren't predictable..you make it seem like you have to be Albert Einstein to play with Brady..almost every offense in the NFL has huge playbooks,and is complicated.

[Amnorix]

Look,Vinny was a dumb QB..what does longevity have to do with his brains?

Dumb QBs usually aren't good enough to last that long, to be honest. And BB isn't a big fan of dumb players either, while we're at it. Certainly not dumb QBs.

A complex offensive scheme that is designed by a 32 year old OC?

I'm pretty sure you are smarter than this -- this is a BB/Weis designed offense that is being RUN by a 32 year old OC. Or did we throw out our entire playbook and start over because Josh McDaniels, who grew up in our system, was elevated to OC?

The Patriots offense is not that complex..they just aren't predictable..you make it seem like you have to be Albert Einstein to play with Brady..almost every offense in the NFL has huge playbooks,and is complicated.

We're talking relative complexity.

Forget it -- this discussion just isn't interesting enough to be worth pursuing anymore, really.

[Amnorix]

Off topic, this comment has always made me wonder what the hell it means. I've said it often, but what is the origin of this phrase?

I mean I've said it, but it's not like I carry around a bag of rat's asses to give each time I say it. Anyone know where this comment started?

I've also heard it used as "I could give..." or "I couldn't give..."

And, "rat's ass" has been replaced with "two shits" and other things from time to time.

Thoughts?


Not a clue.

I read a great story about the etymology of one phrase common in the English language, which military afficianados might like.

The great British Admiral Lord Nelson was second in command of the British Fleet at the Battle of Copenhagen, in which the British engaged the Dutch. At this point, Nelson was already blind in the right eye as a result of his prior combats on behalf of the British Navy.

Nelson, of course, always was a proponent of charging into the enemy and letting the British navy's superior rate of fire win the battle. He wasn't one for elaborate tactics. Get close and destroy was his motto.

He had taken his element of the fleet in close and was heavily engaged. As I said, however, he was SECOND in command of the fleet. The old Admiral commanding the fleet thought he saw the British getting killed and raised signal flags instructing Nelson to disengage and withdraw.

Nelson ignored the signal flags for some time but then one of his lieutenant's pointed out the signal flag and asked if Nelson didn't see it.

Nelson put his handheld telescope up to his right (blind) eye and said "I can honestly say I see no flag" and ignored the signal flag.

Following the battle, he was quoted as having said that he had a blind eye as a result of his service, and had a right to use it on occassion. For the tremendous victory at Copenhagen, Nelson was elevated and given his own fleet, and led the British to victory at Trafalgar a few years later.

So the next time you "turn a blind eye" to something....

[Skip Towne]

Off topic, this comment has always made me wonder what the hell it means. I've said it often, but what is the origin of this phrase?

I mean I've said it, but it's not like I carry around a bag of rat's asses to give each time I say it. Anyone know where this comment started?

I've also heard it used as "I could give..." or "I couldn't give..."

And, "rat's ass" has been replaced with "two shits" and other things from time to time.

Thoughts?
I Googled it. It started sometime in the 20th century but nobody knows exactly where it came from.

[listopencil]

Look,Vinny was a dumb QB..what does longevity have to do with his brains?

A complex offensive scheme that is designed by a 32 year old OC?

The Patriots offense is not that complex..they just aren't predictable..you make it seem like you have to be Albert Einstein to play with Brady..almost every offense in the NFL has huge playbooks,and is complicated.



The complexity I was referring to is in the adjustments. Brady and his intended receiver have to read the D and respond identically just like every other NFL team but the possibilities on each play are incredibly diverse and rely on a huge number of "tells". Some of these tells are so slight that they border on bizarre. I remember what our play book was like when we had that outstanding O quite a few years back and the TE routes/blocking assignments that the Pats run are comparable if not more complicated. This says a lot about the Pats' receivers and I can see why they might not value certain WR's that other teams would covet, because yeah-you would have to be bright to handle that load. BTW-I already had a lot of respect for Tom Brady before I saw some of his play book but afterwards I was stunned. I don't think you have to be a genius to play with Brady...but Brady might just be one.

[Bowser]

Good sign for Denver. Graham along with Henry will make them a force with the run game.

That being said, they WAY overpaid for him.