Saturn Aura Green Line - the Lowest Priced Hybrid

[recxjake]

Saturn Aura Green Line - the Lowest Priced Hybrid

-Certified for $1,300 Tax Credit

-New hybrid starts at $22,695; receives official EPA ratings of 28 mpg city/35 mpg highway

Detroit -- Saturn announced today that the new 2007 Aura Green Line hybrid’s MSRP will start at $22,695 (including destination charge), making it the lowest-priced hybrid on the market for 2007.

In addition to its value-focused price, the Internal Revenue Service has certified that Aura Green Line buyers will qualify for a tax credit of $1,300.

“The Aura Green Line is a great value among the hybrids in the mid-size car segment,” said Saturn General Manager Jill Lajdziak. “With a starting sticker price over $2,000 less than any mid-sized hybrid sedan and a $1,300 tax credit, it makes true hybrid fuel savings available to more people than ever before.”

The Aura Green Line’s EPA fuel economy rating of 28 mpg in the city and 35 mpg on the highway represents up to a 30 percent improvement in EPA combined fuel economy compared to the non-hybrid Aura XE model (depending on driving conditions).

The Aura is assembled at the General Motors Fairfax Plant in Kansas City , Kan. , and Green Line hybrid models are beginning to arrive at Saturn retail facilities.

The hybrid system in the Aura combines sophisticated controls with a precise electric motor/generator mated to a 2.4-liter engine. The system delivers fuel economy gains by providing electric power assist during acceleration, through early fuel cut-off during deceleration with torque smoothing and by shutting the engine off at idle. The system also captures electrical energy through regenerative braking. The vehicle’s hybrid powertrain produces 164 horsepower (122 kW) at 6400 rpm and 159 lb.-ft. (215 Nm) of peak torque at 5000 rpm.

Saturn’s new hybrid sedan is based on the all-new Aura midsize sedan, which garnered the 2007 North American Car of the Year award. The Green Line features the same comprehensive safety package that earned Aura a full five stars in government frontal and side-impact crash tests, placing it among the safest vehicles available. (Visit safercar.gov for details.) Key standard features include dual-stage front, side head-curtain and front-seat thorax protection air bags; StabiliTrak electronic stability control; four-wheel disc brakes with ABS; and GM’s OnStar safety and security system.

The Aura Green Line is one of four hybrids that Saturn has announced. The 2007 Vue Green Line, which debuted last summer using the same hybrid technology as the Aura Green Line, provides the highest EPA estimated highway fuel economy of any SUV at 32 mpg.

In 2008, Saturn will offer the Vue Green Line with the first front-wheel-drive application of GM’s new, 2-mode hybrid system that is expected to deliver up to a 45-percent improvement in combined city and highway fuel economy compared with the non-hybrid Vue.

A plug-in hybrid that has the potential to achieve double the fuel efficiency of any current SUV, is also in development for the Vue. This hybrid SUV will use a modified version of GM’s 2-mode hybrid system and plug-in technology. A Lithium-ion battery pack, when ready, along with highly efficient electronics and powerful electric motors, will achieve even greater increases in fuel economy.


The base Aura starts at 21,000... This Hybrid starts at 22,600

Thats 1,600 bucks more for the hybrid... Then subtract the 1,300 tax credt.....

Yea, that would 300 bucks more for they Hybrid version

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayS...=2&docid=34380

[recxjake]

The Toyota Camry starts at 26,200

33 City, 34 Highway

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calc...=Camry%20Hybrid

[Donger]

The Toyota Camry starts at 26,200 and gets 38 MPG on the Highway... FYI

So, the Camry's a better deal?

[jAZ]

Good looking car, but it gets the same gas milage as many other full-fuel vehicles.

Edmunds agrees there's not much "there" there.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/AutoshowArticles/articleId=117733

What is it?
2007 Saturn Aura Green Line

What's special about it?
It might sound like a subway line to the suburbs, but the Aura Green Line is nothing more than a hybrid version of the 2007 Saturn Aura sedan that debuted earlier this year. Unlike the Toyota Prius, however, or the GMC Yukon hybrid which also debuted at this year's L.A. auto show, the Aura hybrid is a mild hybrid.

You see, the Aura has both a gasoline engine and an electric motor like other hybrids, but it can't propel itself on electric power alone. Instead, the Aura Green Line merely uses its electric motor-generator for extra juice on acceleration. The extra power is in addition to the 164-horsepower four-cylinder gas engine. A four-speed automatic is the only transmission.

Like most other hybrids, the Aura Green Line also shuts down its gas engine at stops to conserve fuel and uses regenerative braking to charge its batteries. GM's mild hybrid system also allows the Aura Green Line to retain all of its accessory power even when the gas engine is off. This applies to the air-conditioning as well as the radio, so sitting in traffic in the summer won't turn the Aura into a sauna.

According to Saturn, the cumulative effect of all the Green Line's hybrid help is 25-percent better mileage than a standard Aura XE. That would put the Green Line's EPA numbers around 25 city and 36 highway, which are slightly better than a four-cylinder Honda Accord with an automatic. If this sounds worth it to you, the Aura Green Line will go on sale next spring for around $23,000.

What's Edmunds' take?
Saturn is taking steps in the right direction with the fuel-efficient(er) Aura Green Line. It's still going to be a tough sale, however, as competitive vehicles are posting close to the same fuel economy numbers with gasoline-only engines. — Mike Schmidt

[recxjake]

Good looking car, but it gets the same gas milage as many other full-fuel vehicles.

Edmunds agrees there's not much "there" there.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/AutoshowArticles/articleId=117733

What is it?
2007 Saturn Aura Green Line

What's special about it?
It might sound like a subway line to the suburbs, but the Aura Green Line is nothing more than a hybrid version of the 2007 Saturn Aura sedan that debuted earlier this year. Unlike the Toyota Prius, however, or the GMC Yukon hybrid which also debuted at this year's L.A. auto show, the Aura hybrid is a mild hybrid.

You see, the Aura has both a gasoline engine and an electric motor like other hybrids, but it can't propel itself on electric power alone. Instead, the Aura Green Line merely uses its electric motor-generator for extra juice on acceleration. The extra power is in addition to the 164-horsepower four-cylinder gas engine. A four-speed automatic is the only transmission.

Like most other hybrids, the Aura Green Line also shuts down its gas engine at stops to conserve fuel and uses regenerative braking to charge its batteries. GM's mild hybrid system also allows the Aura Green Line to retain all of its accessory power even when the gas engine is off. This applies to the air-conditioning as well as the radio, so sitting in traffic in the summer won't turn the Aura into a sauna.

According to Saturn, the cumulative effect of all the Green Line's hybrid help is 25-percent better mileage than a standard Aura XE. That would put the Green Line's EPA numbers around 25 city and 36 highway, which are slightly better than a four-cylinder Honda Accord with an automatic. If this sounds worth it to you, the Aura Green Line will go on sale next spring for around $23,000.

What's Edmunds' take?
Saturn is taking steps in the right direction with the fuel-efficient(er) Aura Green Line. It's still going to be a tough sale, however, as competitive vehicles are posting close to the same fuel economy numbers with gasoline-only engines. — Mike Schmidt

It's what they call a "mild hybrid".... 30% improvement over the regular version for very little more money.

35 MPG + a great starting price + a tax credit = a very good deal

[recxjake]

So, the Camry's a better deal?

No

[morphius]

So, the Camry's a better deal?
Actually, yes as he left out that the Camry is listed as 40mpg City...

[Donger]

Actually, yes as he left out that the Camry is listed as 40mpg City...

Yes, plus I'll bet the Camry's resale doesn't plummet like that GM piece of junk's does.

[recxjake]

Actually, yes as he left out that the Camry is listed as 40mpg City...

It would take you a decade to make up the cost difference between the Camry and Aura.

[Saulbadguy]

Still too expensive.

[recxjake]

Yes, plus I'll bet the Camry's resale doesn't plummet like that GM piece of junk's does.

Acutally, It has a great resale value...

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/saturn/aura/100715083/resalevalues.html

And the whole piece of junk line doesn't fit anymore... Toyota recalled more cars and trucks then GM did last year (percent of how many built)

[Eleazar]

Until the Saturn can match the Camry's depreciation profile, it would probably never be a better deal over the span of time that most people drive a car. The Camry is going to take back most if not all of the sale price difference in gas mileage and difference in value when you're ready to sell it.

Not to mention reliability in all likelihood. Yes... I'd buy a GM vehicle with a brand new type of engine in it.... :rolleyes:

[Saulbadguy]

Acutally, It has a great resale value...

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/saturn/aura/100715083/resalevalues.html

And the whole piece of junk line doesn't fit anymore... Toyota recalled more cars and trucks then GM did last year (percent of how many built)
Resale value for a car that was just released?

[morphius]

Yes, plus I'll bet the Camry's resale doesn't plummet like that GM piece of junk's does.
I'm just trying to figure out how GM screwed up a system that is supposed to gain energy back with city braking.

[recxjake]

Resale value for a car that was just released?

The Aura has been out for a year now...

[Saulbadguy]

The Aura has been out for a year now...
How many people sell their car after owning it for one year?

[Donger]

Acutally, It has a great resale value...

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/saturn/aura/100715083/resalevalues.html

And the whole piece of junk line doesn't fit anymore... Toyota recalled more cars and trucks then GM did last year (percent of how many built)

It would be interesting to see that four to five years out. I would be stunned if it is even close.

So, the Camry is a few grand more, has better MPG and will end up being worth more over time.

I'm sold.

[Eleazar]

Resale value for a car that was just released?

What, lots of people buy a new car and are worried about what the resale will be in 1 year. ROFL

[recxjake]

This is a step in the right direction... In just two years the plug in hybrids will be out, then Hydrogen...

[Eleazar]

In just two years the plug in hybrids will be out, then Hydrogen...

That will up the Aura's resale value, I'm sure.

[morphius]

Standard $19,000 Camry gets 24/33, so one could say that it will take you 20 years to make your money back by only getting 4/2 mpg better with the hybrid Saturn.

[Donger]

Camry Hybrid

City: 40 mpg
Hwy: 38 mpg

GM Turd

City: 20-28 mpg
Hwy: 28-35 mpg

[recxjake]

Standard $19,000 Camry gets 24/33, so one could say that it will take you 20 years to make your money back by only getting 4/2 mpg better with the hybrid Saturn.

Have you been in 19,000 Camry? It's junk

[Donger]

This is a step in the right direction... In just two years the plug in hybrids will be out, then Hydrogen...

Just be quiet.

[morphius]

Have you been in 19,000 Camry? It's junk
LOL! Sure it is...

[recxjake]

Camry Hybrid

City: 40 mpg
Hwy: 38 mpg

GM Turd

City: 20-28 mpg
Hwy: 28-35 mpg


ROFL... I forgot....

The numbers on the current Toyota website are with the OLD EPA ratings.....

Here are the new ones!

33 City, 34 Highway

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectEngine.jsp?year=2007&make=Toyota&model=Camry%20Hybrid

[jiveturkey]

Have you been in 19,000 Camry? It's junkHave you ever been in any Saturn? They basically blow up once you come into contact with anything other than wind.

My wife got rear ended in her 97 Camry (cheap version) by a Saturn and the Saturn crumbled into almost nothing. The Camry barely met the $500 deductible.

[recxjake]

Have you ever been in any Saturn? They basically blow up once you come into contact with anything other than wind.

My wife got rear ended in her 97 Camry (cheap version) by a Saturn and the Saturn crumbled into almost nothing. The Camry barely met the $500 deductible.

Have you seen the new Saturns?

The Aura won car of the year.

Face it the Aura is thousands cheaper and gets better highway MPG

[jAZ]

It's what they call a "mild hybrid".... 30% improvement over the regular version for very little more money.

35 MPG + a great starting price + a tax credit = a very good deal
If the "regular version" needs tax credits and hybrid technology to catch up to many other standard design vehicles, maybe the problem is the "regular version".

[recxjake]

ROFL... I forgot....

The numbers on the current Toyota website are with the OLD EPA ratings.....

Here are the new ones!

33 City, 34 Highway

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectEngine.jsp?year=2007&make=Toyota&model=Camry%20Hybrid

The Aura was tested with the new standards.....

Aura 28/35
Camry 33/34

[morphius]

Have you seen the new Saturns?

The Aura won car of the year.

Face it the Aura is thousands cheaper and gets better highway MPG
Again, hybrid technology only really does you any good if you are in the city, 1 mpg highway doesn't make out for cheaping out on the technology to get 5 mpg less in the city.

[Donger]

ROFL... I forgot....

The numbers on the current Toyota website are with the OLD EPA ratings.....

Here are the new ones!

33 City, 34 Highway

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectEngine.jsp?year=2007&make=Toyota&model=Camry%20Hybrid

Right, so the city MPG for the Camry is still way better and the "new MPG" from the government on the Aura aren't out yet, correct?

[recxjake]

Again, hybrid technology only really does you any good if you are in the city, 1 mpg highway doesn't make out for cheaping out on the technology to get 5 mpg less in the city.

The base Aura starts at 21,000... This Hybrid starts at 22,600

Thats 1,600 bucks more for the hybrid... Then subtract the 1,300 tax credt.....

Yea, that would 300 bucks more for they Hybrid version

[recxjake]

Right, so the city MPG for the Camry is still way better and the "new MPG" from the government on the Aura aren't out yet, correct?

No, the Aura was tested with the new testing standards....

[Donger]

No, the Aura was tested with the new testing standards....

Do you have a link to those data?

"After three years, Toyota's models retain 52 percent of their value, versus 43 percent for GM, according to the Automotive Lease Guide. That's a big reason the Toyota Camry has been America's favorite car for the past five years, outselling GM's No. 1 car, the Chevy Impala, by 35 percent in 2006."

[Dayze]

I think I remember reading somewhre that the tax credit on say, a Hummer H2 is something lik 4 times (or some extremly large figure) higher than the tax credit one would get if they owned a hybrid. I think the credit for the H2 was based on weight....??

Again, not sure of the exact figures, but it was eye-opening for sure. the Credit seemed to be a lot more than the hybrids, etc...

[Stewie]

-New hybrid starts at $22,695; receives official EPA ratings of 28 mpg city/35 mpg highway


By those numbers I'd stay away from a hybrid. What's the benefit of 28/35 and paying nearly $23K for a mediocre car? And who knows about reliability on a hybrid by GM?

[StcChief]

Let's see how many kinks are in these cars in 5 years.

My guess Toyota will still be worth thousands more resale

[recxjake]

Do you have a link to those data?

They just tested it... They have been using the new standards for months now.

[recxjake]

By those numbers I'd stay away from a hybrid. What's the benefit of 28/35 and paying nearly $23K for a mediocre car? And who knows about reliability on a hybrid by GM?

Mediocre car?... do you mean the 2007 car of the Year....

The technology was designed by BMW, Chrysler and GM...

[recxjake]

Do you have a link to those data?

"After three years, Toyota's models retain 52 percent of their value, versus 43 percent for GM, according to the Automotive Lease Guide. That's a big reason the Toyota Camry has been America's favorite car for the past five years, outselling GM's No. 1 car, the Chevy Impala, by 35 percent in 2006."

GM's resale values are going up due to better quality and huge reduction in fleet cars (Rentals, Corporations)

The Camry sales are misleading... they count the Solara sales as well (a 2 door Camry)... GM could do that as well with Monte Carlo... but they don't.

[Stewie]

Mediocre car?... do you mean the 2007 car of the Year....

The technology was designed by BMW, Chrysler and GM...

Are you talking about this 2007 Car of the Year?

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2006/112_news061122_car_of_the_year_2007_toyota_camry

I want a 2007 car that's reliable in 2011 or 2012.

[recxjake]

Are you talking about this 2007 Car of the Year?

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2006/112_news061122_car_of_the_year_2007_toyota_camry

I want a 2007 car that's reliable in 2011 or 2012.

That is ONE opinion... The Aura won the award from 40+ auto journalists

Detroit - At a press conference today to kick off the North American International Auto Show, the Saturn Aura was named the North American Car of the Year. The award is presented annually by a jury of 49 prominent automotive journalists from throughout the United States and Canada.

"We're extremely pleased that the Aura has been named the North American Car of the Year," said Jill Lajdziak, general manager for Saturn. "The Aura is an important step in our ongoing product revitalization plan, and this award is proof that our efforts are paying off."

The Aura features the design found on all new Saturn vehicles, with a bold chrome-bar grille and sharp lines with flowing surfaces. It also exhibits the brand's new attention to detail on the interior as well, with tight gaps and improved materials over past Saturn vehicles.
The uplevel Saturn Aura XR marks the first use of the new HydraMatic 6T70 transmission, the first six-speed automatic in a front-wheel-drive vehicle from GM. This transmission is mated to the 3.6L dual overhead cam V6, producing 252 peak horsepower for a sporty driving experience.
In addition to its design and driving character, the panel recognized Aura for its overall value. The Aura XE starts at just $20,995, and comes with a long list of standard features that includes a 224-horsepower 3.5L V6 engine, six airbags, four-wheel disc brakes with ABS and GM's OnStar Safety and Security system.

With its long list of standard safety equipment, the Aura's safety credentials rate among the best in the industry. It earned five stars - the highest rating possible - in all four metrics from the federal government's new car assessment program.

In addition to the powertrain upgrade, the XR adds standard StabiliTrak electronic stability control, 18-inch alloy wheels, heated front seats and remote vehicle ignition. The XR starts at $24,995.
Saturn will add a Green Line model this spring, featuring a 2.4L, four-cylinder engine mated to an electric motor generator. This affordable hybrid will start at under $23,000, and will get a 25% improvement in fuel economy over the Aura XE.
The Aura went on sale at Saturn retailers in August 2006. Saturn sold more than 5,800 Auras in December 2006.

The judges had this to say:
Lindsay Brooke, Automotive Engineering International: "A stiff body structure, suspension nicely balanced between ride compliance and handling, responsive DOHC V6 and smooth-shifting 6-speed automatic make the Aura more fun to drive than Toyota's Camry."

John Davis, Motor Week: "A striking and entertaining family sedan alternative to Camry and Accord. Excellent interior that is original, yet mainstream."

Matt DeLorenzo, Road and Track: "The Saturn Aura is a breakthrough car for General Motors. The exterior styling, interior upgrades and drive train, especially the 3.6L V6 with the 6-speed automatic, come together as a complete package. The road manners are solid, the interior is beautiful, and the overall fit and finish is top-notch. Add in a competitive price structure that keeps the sticker below $30,000 and you have a world-class family sedan."

Denis Duquet, Le Guide de l'Auto: "This sedan proves that things have changed at Saturn in a very positive and quite spectacular way."

Ken Gross, Playboy - Hemispheres: "This smart Euro-styled sedan could lead a Saturn turnaround. It's well-thought out, very nicely styled, entertaining to drive and thoughtfully priced."

[morphius]

Are you talking about this 2007 Car of the Year?

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2006/112_news061122_car_of_the_year_2007_toyota_camry

I want a 2007 car that's reliable in 2011 or 2012.
I have to wonder if anyone actually puts anything behind the "car of the year" from all the different magazines, other then the manufacturers so that they can put it in their ads?

I can't think of one time when I have considered them when looking at cars.

[Stewie]

I have to wonder if anyone actually puts anything behind the "car of the year" from all the different magazines, other then the manufacturers so that they can put it in their ads?

I can't think of one time when I have considered them when looking at cars.

I agree. I was pointing out that there is more than one "Car of the Year" award. I especially don't like the JD Powers "initial quality" rating. Huh? The bumpers, doors, and hoods are straight! For $20K+, shouldn't they be?

I usually stick to Consumer Reports for a less biased rating.

[htismaqe]

I've owned a Saturn and I've owned a Toyota, both with sticker prices within 5% of each other.

In terms of quality, there's no comparison.

[Donger]

GM's resale values are going up due to better quality and huge reduction in fleet cars (Rentals, Corporations)

The Camry sales are misleading... they count the Solara sales as well (a 2 door Camry)... GM could do that as well with Monte Carlo... but they don't.

I really only posted that to show how the manufacturers compare with regards to their products maintaining their value. GM drops another 10% over the same time frame. So, there goes your "savings" on a better car.

I have noticed that there are fewer GM cars on the rental lots, however. That's great, since I won't drive them.

[Eleazar]

I have noticed that there are fewer GM cars on the rental lots, however. That's great, since I won't drive them.

I noticed two different times yesterday, Nissans that had the little Enterprise "E" sticker on the back. Never seen that before.

[Stewie]

I noticed two different times yesterday, Nissans that had the little Enterprise "E" sticker on the back. Never seen that before.

I travel alot and rent cars from National. They have really widened their selection of vehicles to drive, both domestic (whatever that is) and foreign. I always try different cars when I can. The car that's been the most fun is the Ford Mustang, but it has a really funky/weird dash. The least desirable car I've rented is the Chevy HHR. The blind spots in that vehicle are down right dangerous. The nicest was a Maxima. Actually, the Ford Fusion was a fun little car, too.

[SALEEN 209]

All I hear about is toyota quality ROFL Give me a break my inlaws bought 2 camrys nothing but trouble. First the rotors went out then the transmission then it started leaking oil, Thats camry #1. The other one had an unlocateable knock in the engine and cpu problems. Also the body style hasnt changed in 10 years or so it has just been adjusted. To me its just a boring car my grandma would drive. But thats just me.

[Logical]

How many people sell their car after owning it for one year?Mainly GM owners who are fed up.

[recxjake]

I've owned a Saturn and I've owned a Toyota, both with sticker prices within 5% of each other.

In terms of quality, there's no comparison.

What year was the Saturn? They were junk prior to 2005.

[recxjake]

I noticed two different times yesterday, Nissans that had the little Enterprise "E" sticker on the back. Never seen that before.

Its a very bad business to get into... they basically give the cars to the rental agencies... and take them back for free after a certain period of time. This is what was really dragging down GM resale values....

GM was making to many cars, giving the excess to rental agencies... etc.

They have significantly reduced the number of these types of sales... Instead of just keeping that plants at full production, they are reducing to acutal needs, which in turns raises the resale value.

[morphius]

What year was the Saturn? They were junk prior to 2005.
And you told us that the interior of the Impala was crap and that the latest redesign was awesome, only to tell us a year later that it was crap and that next years model is great. We could say the same about the way you pimped the Malibu and are trashing it now.

[recxjake]

And you told us that the interior of the Impala was crap and that the latest redesign was awesome, only to tell us a year later that it was crap and that next years model is great. We could say the same about the way you pimped the Malibu and are trashing it now.

I really like the new Impala... very underrated...

The current Malibu is fugly... The new one comes out in June! It's beautiful.... On the same frame as the Aura.. will offer a hybrid as well.

[Stewie]

Its a very bad business to get into... they basically give the cars to the rental agencies... and take them back for free after a certain period of time. This is what was really dragging down GM resale values....

GM was making to many cars, giving the excess to rental agencies... etc.



I disagree. It's a great marketing tool. I travel alot to Phoenix and it's unbelievable how many cars are rented. The smart OEMs don't dump their crap on rental agencies, they give them good cars that renters say, "Hey, this is a great car. I might consider this as a future purchase." GM just dumped their crappy cars on the rental agencies because there was no where else for them to go. Just an observation from an experienced traveler.

[recxjake]

I disagree. It's a great marketing tool. I travel alot to Phoenix and it's unbelievable how many cars are rented. The smart OEMs don't dump their crap on rental agencies, they give them good cars that renters say, "Hey, this is a great car. I might consider this as a future purchase." GM just dumped their crappy cars on the rental agencies because there was no where else for them to go. Just an observation from an experienced traveler.

I agree it can be a marketing tool... but it's bad for the consumer, and bad for business.... They make NO money on these cars, and it lowers resale value.

[Donger]

I agree it can be a marketing tool... but it's bad for the consumer, and bad for business.... They make NO money on these cars, and it lowers resale value.


Profitability per Vehicle

Source: 2005 Harbour Report

GM: Loses $2,331 per vehicle

Toyota: Makes $1,488 per vehicle

[recxjake]

Profitability per Vehicle

Source: 2005 Harbour Report

GM: Loses $2,331 per vehicle

Toyota: Makes $1,488 per vehicle

Old numbers... GM is profitable again.

[recxjake]

Vehicle Production Started in U.S.
Source: GM & Toyota
GM:
1908
Toyota:
1986

Brands Sold in North America
Source: GM & Toyota
GM:
Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, HUMMER, Pontiac, Saab, Saturn

Toyota:
Toyota, Lexus, Scion, Hino

Best-Selling Vehicle in U.S.
Source: GM & Toyota

GM:
Chevrolet Silverado
680,768 sold in 2004

Toyota:
Toyota Camry
426,990 sold in 2004

U.S. Sales in 2005
Source: Autodata
GM:
4,454,386, down 4.3% from 2004
Toyota:
2,260,296, up 10.1% from 2004

U.S. Market Share
Source: First nine months of 2005, Harbour Consulting
GM:
26.8%
Toyota:
13%

Vehicle Production in North America 2005
Source: GM & Toyota
GM:
4,856,000
Toyota:
1,558,828

Profitability per Vehicle
Source: 2005 Harbour Report
GM:
Loses $2,331 per vehicle
Toyota:
Makes $1,488 per vehicle

Net Income in the First 9 Months of 2005
Source: Harbour Consulting
GM:
$4.15 billion loss from North America operations off-set by profits in Europe and Asia for an overall loss of $3.8 billion
Toyota:
$7.89 billion (¥921.7 billion, converted at 116.81 yen to $1)

Number of Plants in North America
Source: GM & Toyota
GM:
77, all unionized. Plans to close 12 facilities by 2008 (see press release).
Toyota:
12, three unionized in Long Beach, Calif., Fremont, Calif., and Tijuana, Mexico.

Average Plant Capacity Utilization
Source: Harbour Report 2005
GM:
85%
Toyota:
107% using overtime workers

Production Time per Vehicle
Source: 2005 Harbour Report
GM:
34.3 hours, 2.5% improvement since 2003
Toyota:
27.9 hours, 5.5% improvement since 2003

North American Workforce
Source: GM & Toyota, Dec. 2005
GM:
White collar: 36,000
Production: 106,000.
Retirees: 460,000

Toyota:
White collar: 17,000 Production: 21,000 Retirees: 1,600

Average Hourly Salary for Non-Skilled, Assembly Line Worker
Source: Center for Automotive Research
GM:
$31.35/hour
NOTE: Includes idle workers still on payroll and those on protected status.
Toyota:
$27/hour
NOTE: Includes year-end bonus.

Health Care Costs per Vehicle in 2004
Source: 2005 Harbour Report & A.T. Kearny Inc.
GM:
$1,525
Toyota:
$201

Average Labor Cost per U.S. Hourly Worker
Source: GM & Toyota
GM:
$73.73
Toyota:
$48

Worldwide Sales in 2005
Source: GM & Toyota
GM:
9.2 million
Toyota:
8.2 million

Global Market Share in 2005
Source: Automotive News, GM & Toyota
GM:
14.2%, down from 14.6% in 2002
Toyota:
12% up from 10.6% in 2002

Worldwide Vehicle Production Projected for 2005
Source: 2005 Harbour Report
GM:
9 million

Manufacturing operations in 32 countries, vehicles sold in 200 countries

Toyota:
8.4 million

Manufacturing operations in 26 countries and regions, vehicles sold in over 170 countries

These numbers are from 05, but are interesting.

[Fairplay]

I like how some of these companys (namely GM) are pumping the 100,000 drive train warrenty.

How many people have you known whose drive train fails before that?

[Donger]

Old numbers... GM is profitable again.

I thought that the still posted a loss from North American auto operations in Q4?

[recxjake]

I thought that the still posted a loss from North American auto operations in Q4?

I don't remember, it was close on either side... but the company as a whole is back in black.

[recxjake]

I like how some of these companys (namely GM) are pumping the 100,000 drive train warrenty.

How many people have you known whose drive train fails before that?

There is much more to it then just that... and compare that to everyone else... it is a very good

[Fairplay]

There is much more to it then just that... and compare that to everyone else... it is a very good



What else is there to it, pray tell.

[Donger]

I don't remember, it was close on either side... but the company as a whole is back in black.

Honestly, I hope that GM can turn things around. They made some monumentally stupid business decisions that have bitten them on the ass, and they've been paying for it since.

[Mosbonian]

All I hear about is toyota quality ROFL Give me a break my inlaws bought 2 camrys nothing but trouble. First the rotors went out then the transmission then it started leaking oil, Thats camry #1. The other one had an unlocateable knock in the engine and cpu problems. Also the body style hasnt changed in 10 years or so it has just been adjusted. To me its just a boring car my grandma would drive. But thats just me.

I call BULLSHIT .....

1)I have had 2 Camry's.....never had anything remotely close to the problems that you infer, nor have I heard of anyone that I knew who drive a Camry have that much trouble. I am sure that not every car Toyota makes is perfect....but I think you are recxjake's best friend trying to further his propoganda.

2) While the body style hasn't changed drastically as much as it did from 1992 to 1993, it has still made subtle changes that continues to make it attractive beyond the normal mechanical reasons.

3) Boring....hardly....unless of course you are related to Evil Knievel.

mmaddog
*******

[SALEEN 209]

I call BULLSHIT .....

1)I have had 2 Camry's.....never had anything remotely close to the problems that you infer, nor have I heard of anyone that I knew who drive a Camry have that much trouble. I am sure that not every car Toyota makes is perfect....but I think you are recxjake's best friend trying to further his propoganda.

2) While the body style hasn't changed drastically as much as it did from 1992 to 1993, it has still made subtle changes that continues to make it attractive beyond the normal mechanical reasons.

3) Boring....hardly....unless of course you are related to Evil Knievel.

mmaddog
*******Wow what a great response. You dont even know me but all the sudden I am full of it and someones bestfriend. What I said was true I have no reason to lie about it. Just because you had a good camry dosent mean everyone else has,(RECALLS). Also no matter what you say they are boring and that is why the sales have slowed in recent years.

[recxjake]

Honestly, I hope that GM can turn things around. They made some monumentally stupid business decisions that have bitten them on the ass, and they've been paying for it since.

Donger, they are turning things around... They are making better quality cars and trucks. They are working very hard on fuel efficiency.... Design is the top priority. Resale value is going up.

But look at this thread.... GM makes an award winning car, Has better fuel mileagle then then the Camry and is 3,000 bucks cheaper... but not one person said... wow, good job GM, nice car.... Instead, like usual it turned into a hate GM thread. I'm not sure what more GM can do.

[Donger]

I'm not sure what more GM can do.

It's quite simple: produce stylish, reliable, comparably priced cars. If they do that, I've no doubt they will regain profitability. They got arrogant. The need to EARN their customers' trust back.

[morphius]

Donger, they are turning things around... They are making better quality cars and trucks. They are working very hard on fuel efficiency.... Design is the top priority. Resale value is going up.

But look at this thread.... GM makes an award winning car, Has better fuel mileagle then then the Camry and is 3,000 bucks cheaper... but not one person said... wow, good job GM, nice car.... Instead, like usual it turned into a hate GM thread. I'm not sure what more GM can do.
Get back to us when they are done "turning" and actually get there...

[Mosbonian]

Wow what a great response. You dont even know me but all the sudden I am full of it and someones bestfriend. What I said was true I have no reason to lie about it. Just because you had a good camry dosent mean everyone else has,(RECALLS). Also no matter what you say they are boring and that is why the sales have slowed in recent years.

You're right I don't know you....but your post said enough. It shows that you have done very little in the way of research on the reliability and dependability of the Camry. You're posting your opinion based on 2 Camry's supposedly owned by your in-laws.....I can tell you that my opinion is based on owning 2 Camry's...having at least 5 other friends who have owned Camry's also and have had no problems with their autos. Plus, one of those same friends works for a Rental Car operation that uses Camry's in their fleet.

Please at least be a little more enlightened before posting and you might not get a response like mine.

mmaddog
*******

[DomerNKC]

Donger, they are turning things around... They are making better quality cars and trucks. They are working very hard on fuel efficiency.... Design is the top priority. Resale value is going up.

But look at this thread.... GM makes an award winning car, Has better fuel mileagle then then the Camry and is 3,000 bucks cheaper... but not one person said... wow, good job GM, nice car.... Instead, like usual it turned into a hate GM thread. I'm not sure what more GM can do.But look at this thread.... GM makes an award winning car (there are numerous "cars of the year" most are sold to the neediest bidder., Has better fuel mileagle then then the Camry (this has been disputed in this thread. By the way it gets 1 mpg better on the highway but is 5 mpg less in town. sounds like the Camry has better fuel economy to me.and is 3,000 bucks cheaper(with much higher depreciation)... but not one person said... wow, good job GM, nice car ( surprise surprise, the public is now used to the GM smoke and mirrors. .... Instead, like usual it turned into a hate GM thread. I'm not sure what more GM can do. For starters they can quit talking about making a better car, and just make one already. It seems that every year the song remains the same, "last year we were wrong, but this year we have turned it all around. I, for one, would love to have an American Company build the best cars in the world. It just isn't true. We used to make the best, but the "big three" rested on their laurels and let the Japanese sit at the table. Now they are kicking your asses. Instead of rolling up your sleeves and tightening your belts to improve, you just want to bullshit your way out of it. Keep burrying your head in the sand and GM will be owned by Toyota. It is probably too late. By the way, Welcome to the Hybrid race but like most attempts by GM it is again too little and much much too late.

[Otis99]

The Aura Green Line’s EPA fuel economy rating of 28 mpg in the city and 35 mpg on the highway

I thought this was a mistake when I first read it. Hell, my fire breathing LS1-powered Firebird could get 30 MPG on the highway from a 346 cubic inch block. That's the best they can do with a smaller engine plus hybrid technology to boot?

This new car has "me too" written all over it. It's a step in the right direction but I don't see any real innovation here, let alone technology that's on par with what you can buy from other companies.

There are many comparable cars out there that can do better than 28/35 without the benefit of hybrid technology. The government's latest fuel economy ratings can be downloaded here:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/FEG2007.pdf

(Which, I might add, rates the Camry hybrid at 40/38 if that helps settle that argument)

[htismaqe]

What year was the Saturn? They were junk prior to 2005.

That seems to a recurring theme with you.

[Logical]

Donger, they are turning things around... They are making better quality cars and trucks. They are working very hard on fuel efficiency.... Design is the top priority. Resale value is going up.

But look at this thread.... GM makes an award winning car, Has better fuel mileagle then then the Camry and is 3,000 bucks cheaper... but not one person said... wow, good job GM, nice car.... Instead, like usual it turned into a hate GM thread. I'm not sure what more GM can do.
If you would stop pimping them at every chance maybe people would give them a chance. Your pimping is so annoying no one is going to care.

[Fairplay]

Im going to worship GM cars from now on.

Im building a shrine to my nieghbors GM car as we speak.

[morphius]

That seems to a recurring theme with you.
Exactly what I have been saying! Next year I expect to hear that the 2006's were pieces of junk.

[The Big Lebowski]

I own a Saturn and let me tell you, this thing is a piece of crap. It was nice the first year. It's crap now. I was bamboozled.

[StcChief]

wow, good job GM, nice car.... Instead, like usual it turned into a hate GM thread. I'm not sure what more GM can do. It's real simple Rex...

Build a car that lasts more than 100K mile warantee, that will NOT $50/trip you to death, hence is reliable.

Roger Smith GM was one of the reasons for GM down fall.
From a speech. by Lee Iococca
[quote]First there was Roger Smith, the head of General Motors, addressing the National Press Club. In his entire speech text of 16 pages, not once did he refer to his company's products. Mr. Smith spoke only of dollar matters -- sales, profits and profit-sharing. Sitting in the audience filled with prosperous auto dealers, and auto lobbyists, I wondered whether he was the company's chief accountant instead of Its chief executive officer.[/quotel]
link -> http://www.nader.org/template.php?/archives/780-Iacocca-Warns-Public-of-Danger-in-GM-Toyota-Deal.html

Even with the Toyota Corolla/Prism run it couldn't save GM.


Trying to bounce back is tough when your company reputation has been failing your customers since 1970.

[ChiefsfaninPA]

GM still makes cars? :hmmm:

[Slick32]

Toyota Prius - 40-50 MPG. I've yet to see anyone beat that.

[Slick32]

It would take you a decade to make up the cost difference between the Camry and Aura.

It would take you 15 minutes to make up the difference in depreciation. Plus you can buy a Camry with the Hybrid option.

[Slick32]

What, lots of people buy a new car and are worried about what the resale will be in 1 year. ROFL

I've known people that drive their Camry's until they fall apart, nearly 300,000 miles. I've also known people that will trade every year to keep a current model. Makes it good for us'ns that buy used cars and drive them until they can't be driven anymore.

[Otis99]

Build a car that lasts more than 100K mile warantee, that will NOT $50/trip you to death, hence is reliable.


The 100k warranty only covers engine+trans, which GM has in recent years done a great job with. Don't think it covers anything else once you get out of the 3/36 warranty (though there may be a rust/corrosion warranty). You don't hear as much about GM and head gasket failures or transmissions taking a crap after 40k miles anymore, I think they've improved quality a lot in those areas.

However - I'd like to see them extend that warranty to cover electrical problems. My Firebird, my friend's Silverado, another friend's Camaro, they all had factory stereos that crapped out after a couple of years. In fact, I'd like to see a GM product with 100,000 miles on it that never had an electrical problem of some kind.

[Slick32]

The Aura was tested with the new standards.....

Aura 28/35
Camry 33/34

You probably haven't owned a car yet and have been sold a bill of goods.

A Toyota, any Toyota, has better road life than any GM vehicle. I've owned NEW GM's and NEW Toyota's as well as used cars manufactured by both. The fact that GM has not adopted the build them to last philosophy that Toyota has.

I have had 3 New Camry's. Mileage has been:
300,000 miles with a 1987 - Totaled with life still in the car. $4,000 Insuracne payment from the lady's insurance that hit the car.
155,000 miles with a 1991 - Totaled with plenty of life still in the car. $5,000 totaled insurance from my insurance company - Bambi was not insured.
188,000 miles with a 2000 - Still driving.

1998 Corolla - 165,000 miles Bought used for $8,000 Traded 4 years later for a 2002 Prius, got $8,000 for the trade-in.

On all of them we have done normal maintenance and little else.

1977 Chevy - 52,000 miles, normal maintenance. New Transmission, engine overhaul, wheel bearings, shocks, brakes, 4 mufflers and zero resale value.

Rexie, I just don't think you have an objective view of the world.

[recxjake]

I thought this was a mistake when I first read it. Hell, my fire breathing LS1-powered Firebird could get 30 MPG on the highway from a 346 cubic inch block. That's the best they can do with a smaller engine plus hybrid technology to boot?

This new car has "me too" written all over it. It's a step in the right direction but I don't see any real innovation here, let alone technology that's on par with what you can buy from other companies.

There are many comparable cars out there that can do better than 28/35 without the benefit of hybrid technology. The government's latest fuel economy ratings can be downloaded here:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/FEG2007.pdf

(Which, I might add, rates the Camry hybrid at 40/38 if that helps settle that argument)


Those are not current figures... those were from the old testing standards... The Camry Hybrid gets 33/34, Aura 28/35

[recxjake]

You probably haven't owned a car yet and have been sold a bill of goods.

A Toyota, any Toyota, has better road life than any GM vehicle. I've owned NEW GM's and NEW Toyota's as well as used cars manufactured by both. The fact that GM has not adopted the build them to last philosophy that Toyota has.

I have had 3 New Camry's. Mileage has been:
300,000 miles with a 1987 - Totaled with life still in the car. $4,000 Insuracne payment from the lady's insurance that hit the car.
155,000 miles with a 1991 - Totaled with plenty of life still in the car. $5,000 totaled insurance from my insurance company - Bambi was not insured.
188,000 miles with a 2000 - Still driving.

1998 Corolla - 165,000 miles Bought used for $8,000 Traded 4 years later for a 2002 Prius, got $8,000 for the trade-in.

On all of them we have done normal maintenance and little else.

1977 Chevy - 52,000 miles, normal maintenance. New Transmission, engine overhaul, wheel bearings, shocks, brakes, 4 mufflers and zero resale value.

Rexie, I just don't think you have an objective view of the world.

I'm not sure what your GM product from 30 years ago has to do with how they are makig the cars and trucks today.

[jjjayb]

I'm not sure what your GM product from 30 years ago has to do with how they are makig the cars and trucks today.

Or what a toyota from 10 years ago has to do with today. Toyota's quality is slipping seriously in the last 5 years. The number of recalls they have been issuing is incredible. They had more recalls last year than the number of vehicles they built. THAT is what you guys call quality? Toyota is truly living off of an old reputation that was earned when they weren't building the number of cars they are now. Welcome to the real world toyota.

[SALEEN 209]

You're right I don't know you....but your post said enough. It shows that you have done very little in the way of research on the reliability and dependability of the Camry. You're posting your opinion based on 2 Camry's supposedly owned by your in-laws.....I can tell you that my opinion is based on owning 2 Camry's...having at least 5 other friends who have owned Camry's also and have had no problems with their autos. Plus, one of those same friends works for a Rental Car operation that uses Camry's in their fleet.

Please at least be a little more enlightened before posting and you might not get a response like mine.

mmaddog
*******Ive been in the auto industy for 20 years at all levels I think I am qualified to write my response. I have worked for toyota and GM both. What i wrote about styling changes came from Toyotas people. It came in a satisfaction report that we had to breakdown for our boss.
Also before we go any further have any of you even went to look at any of the cars your downing or are you just going buy the reports. Because you do know reports are just like opinions. My advice is form you own by real life experiences not reports.

[htismaqe]

Or what a toyota from 10 years ago has to do with today. Toyota's quality is slipping seriously in the last 5 years. The number of recalls they have been issuing is incredible. They had more recalls last year than the number of vehicles they built. THAT is what you guys call quality? Toyota is truly living off of an old reputation that was earned when they weren't building the number of cars they are now. Welcome to the real world toyota.

I wonder how much of it has to do with actually building cars in the US?

Having worked for a GM sub-contractor, I've seen the quality of worker they attract...

[Mosbonian]

Ive been in the auto industy for 20 years at all levels I think I am qualified to write my response. I have worked for toyota and GM both. What i wrote about styling changes came from Toyotas people. It came in a satisfaction report that we had to breakdown for our boss.
Also before we go any further have any of you even went to look at any of the cars your downing or are you just going buy the reports. Because you do know reports are just like opinions. My advice is form you own by real life experiences not reports.

If you have been working in the industry for 20 years and write the response you first wrote....go back and look at it and tell me that is a response from someone who has been "in the business" for 20 years.

As for your last paragraph.....yes I have driven something other than a Toyota...my wife had a Ford Van, a Plymouth MiniVan, and a Dodge Grand Caravan in the time that I owned my 1991 Toyota Camry. All three were pieces of crap that we bought new that cost us more "under warranty" than my Camry did in the 10 years I owned it.

mmaddog
*******

[Mosbonian]

Or what a toyota from 10 years ago has to do with today. Toyota's quality is slipping seriously in the last 5 years. The number of recalls they have been issuing is incredible. They had more recalls last year than the number of vehicles they built. THAT is what you guys call quality? Toyota is truly living off of an old reputation that was earned when they weren't building the number of cars they are now. Welcome to the real world toyota.

You been drinking from the same punch bowl as recxjake?

mmaddog
*******

[Slick32]

Or what a toyota from 10 years ago has to do with today. Toyota's quality is slipping seriously in the last 5 years. The number of recalls they have been issuing is incredible. They had more recalls last year than the number of vehicles they built. THAT is what you guys call quality? Toyota is truly living off of an old reputation that was earned when they weren't building the number of cars they are now. Welcome to the real world toyota.

What you might try to let sink into your head is that more Toyotas are built in the US now than there were 10 years ago. My first Camry was built in Japan and imported. My second one was built in Kentucky. I can only assume that the third one was built in the U.S. The biggest problem I've had with my second Camry was it wasn't built well enough to stop bambi from coming through the winshield at 65 mph. The third one hasn't had any problems, it's a 2000 and I've got 188,000 on it. The recalls that we have had have been minor in nature and mostly have had to do with parts that were defective and had little to do with operational conditions. i.e. seat belt guides to keep the belt off of your neck.

[Fairplay]

Anyone know where i can get a centerfold type of picture of the GMC Envoy?

[morphius]

What you might try to let sink into your head is that more Toyotas are built in the US now than there were 10 years ago. My first Camry was built in Japan and imported. My second one was built in Kentucky. I can only assume that the third one was built in the U.S. The biggest problem I've had with my second Camry was it wasn't built well enough to stop bambi from coming through the winshield at 65 mph. The third one hasn't had any problems, it's a 2000 and I've got 188,000 on it. The recalls that we have had have been minor in nature and mostly have had to do with parts that were defective and had little to do with operational conditions. i.e. seat belt guides to keep the belt off of your neck.
I also think people can look past recalls if the car doesn't have other things going wrong with it as well and still manage to last a good time. Sure it is frustrating taking your vehicle in, but at least it isn't something that is coming out of your wallet.

[SALEEN 209]

If you have been working in the industry for 20 years and write the response you first wrote....go back and look at it and tell me that is a response from someone who has been "in the business" for 20 years.

As for your last paragraph.....yes I have driven something other than a Toyota...my wife had a Ford Van, a Plymouth MiniVan, and a Dodge Grand Caravan in the time that I owned my 1991 Toyota Camry. All three were pieces of crap that we bought new that cost us more "under warranty" than my Camry did in the 10 years I owned it.

mmaddog
*******What about it? If you can read between the lines who do you think told them to buy the camrys? :hmmm: .Also you drove Ford dodge and plymouth. Are any of them GM? NO you also bought them when? In the 90s worst time for american made cars. You also didnt answer the final question. Have you went out and looked at the new cars other than Toyota?

[SALEEN 209]

You been drinking from the same punch bowl as recxjake?

mmaddog
*******I think you need to do more looking around maddog what he is saying is true. Toyota spent i think 3 billion buying off bad engine defects Go to detroitfreepress.com and look for it. Toyota also recalled more cars last year than they produced.

[morphius]

What about it? If you can read between the lines who do you think told them to buy the camrys? :hmmm: .Also you drove Ford dodge and plymouth. Are any of them GM? NO you also bought them when? In the 90s worst time for american made cars. You also didnt answer the final question. Have you went out and looked at the new cars other than Toyota?
The problem is that the 70's, 80's and 90's were the worst time for American cars. People can see a trend. I mean heck, the biggest GM lackey says that Saturn's sucked before 2005. It is going to take more then 2 years of "maybe" good cars before people forget the 30+ years of complete crap that they tried to force on us when they were more worried about their profit margin then keeping customers happy.

[Slick32]

The problem is that the 70's, 80's and 90's were the worst time for American cars. People can see a trend. I mean heck, the biggest GM lackey says that Saturn's sucked before 2005. It is going to take more then 2 years of "maybe" good cars before people forget the 30+ years of complete crap that they tried to force on us when they were more worried about their profit margin then keeping customers happy.

It isn't so much that the times were not great for GM and the other producers of American cars, the problem lies in the fact that when the world was seeing there was a problem with the oil supply the Big 3 kept making the giant SUV's along with other inefficient vehicles. The foreign manufacturers started looking at more fuel effecient vehicles and better engineered components.

How many years did Toyota have Hybrids before the others started moving in that direction? Even now the impetitus behind the American made Hybrids is not extended gas mileage but more of an performance issue. The MPG is still far lower than the Honda or Toyota.

It's just a personal observation, but the Big 3 are only looking to keep us dependant on foreign oil and to keep making the oversized vehicles. They are producing more vanity vehicles than practical vehicles.

[SALEEN 209]

The problem is that the 70's, 80's and 90's were the worst time for American cars. People can see a trend. I mean heck, the biggest GM lackey says that Saturn's sucked before 2005. It is going to take more then 2 years of "maybe" good cars before people forget the 30+ years of complete crap that they tried to force on us when they were more worried about their profit margin then keeping customers happy.I am not trying to discount the last 30 years and I agree it will take more than 2 years to win over the past mistakes. My point is if you do not try the product how do you know if it is good or not? You dont. The recalls and things that are going on with toyota is what happend to the big three just think about it.

[morphius]

I am not trying to discount the last 30 years and I agree it will take more than 2 years to win over the past mistakes. My point is if you do not try the product how do you know if it is good or not? You dont. The recalls and things that are going on with toyota is what happend to the big three just think about it.
I don't know, Toyota is fixing the issues, back in the day the American car companies would have ignored it until the government forced them to do it and the cars would already be rusting pieces of junk by then.

I have owned GM, Toyo, Mazda, Ford, and Nissan, and actually looked at cars in 2005 from all the makers. Ford didn't have anything I even wanted to look at, Mazda's was too small, the GM didn't have child safety locks, most amazing sign of stupidity I have seen in years.

[SALEEN 209]

I don't know, Toyota is fixing the issues, back in the day the American car companies would have ignored it until the government forced them to do it and the cars would already be rusting pieces of junk by then.

I have owned GM, Toyo, Mazda, Ford, and Nissan, and actually looked at cars in 2005 from all the makers. Ford didn't have anything I even wanted to look at, Mazda's was too small, the GM didn't have child safety locks, most amazing sign of stupidity I have seen in years.Which car didnt have child safety locks?

[morphius]

Which car didnt have child safety locks?
The Impala, I know it is a little thing, but my son is a bit too damn ornery.

[Slick32]

I don't know, Toyota is fixing the issues, back in the day the American car companies would have ignored it until the government forced them to do it and the cars would already be rusting pieces of junk by then.

I have owned GM, Toyo, Mazda, Ford, and Nissan, and actually looked at cars in 2005 from all the makers. Ford didn't have anything I even wanted to look at, Mazda's was too small, the GM didn't have child safety locks, most amazing sign of stupidity I have seen in years.

I go quite a bit of traveling and have rented most of the American models, I have yet to find any I would consider buying. I have owned a Nissan, wasn't really impressed with the quality. I have owned two older Honda's, they were OK, but not the same quality as the Camry's.

[SALEEN 209]

The Impala, I know it is a little thing, but my son is a bit too damn ornery.I fully understand I cant say i have seen the impala but next time I see one i will look.

[morphius]

I fully understand I cant say i have seen the impala but next time I see one i will look.
The dealer let me take it home and when I was looking over the comparison sheets I had put together I noticed it didn't have that. I took it back a couple of days early. The interior was blah, but the size was nice and with the employee discount at the time it was tempting, but it was amazing something like that was the show stopper. The dealers even went back to check to see if what I was seeing was correct, or if it was a feature they could add, and just had to say sorry. They mentioned that the Malibu had it, but that was smaller then the Camry and the Altima, and I wasn't going to get anything smaller then the Altima as that was what we were replacing and filled it up often on trips.

[Otis99]

Toyota spent i think 3 billion buying off bad engine defects Go to detroitfreepress.com and look for it. Toyota also recalled more cars last year than they produced.

Got a source on that engine recall? Hey, at least Toyota owned up to it. My Firebird had piston slap that GM refused to admit, which was a widespread problem on the LS1. My Neon went through 3 head gaskets due to crappy engine design by Dodge that they refused to cover under warranty (a chronic problem on any 2.0L Dodge from the mid-90s).

For whatever it's worth, I don't think it's fair to blame automakers TOO much for recalls. They happen. It's when they refuse to admit there is a systemic problem with a particular model of vehicle and refuse to fix it as well that you have a problem.

I'm sure that most automakers "recall more cars than they produce", whatever that means. Does a faulty dome light count as a recall or are you talking about real problems like "engine might catch fire due to faulty fuel lines"? If Toyota sucks so bad, what are the numbers on other manufacturers?

[Silock]

It would take you a decade to make up the cost difference between the Camry and Aura.

At least the Toyota will last that long.

[Silock]

Have you been in 19,000 Camry? It's junk

Coming from the GM standpoint, that's a laughable statement.

[Silock]

All I hear about is toyota quality ROFL Give me a break my inlaws bought 2 camrys nothing but trouble. First the rotors went out then the transmission then it started leaking oil, Thats camry #1. The other one had an unlocateable knock in the engine and cpu problems. Also the body style hasnt changed in 10 years or so it has just been adjusted. To me its just a boring car my grandma would drive. But thats just me.

Sounds like bad luck to me. Isolated incidents can't dispute the overall trend that Toyotas last much longer than GMs.

[Silock]

Toyota Prius - 40-50 MPG. I've yet to see anyone beat that.

Don't worry... I'm sure Rex will be in here any minute to tell you that it doesn't matter because the Prius is a POS and the Saturn is a better car.

[Silock]

Those are not current figures... those were from the old testing standards... The Camry Hybrid gets 33/34, Aura 28/35

How is that better mileage?? That's worse in the city, where the hybrid is supposed to actually do something, and marginally better on the highway. For mixed driving, the Camry is going to beat the pants off the Aura.

Still, I'm not really sure why this is strictly a Toyota vs GM thing. My Honda 4 cylinder gets 32 city, 38 highway, runs 13s in the quarter mile, was built in 2002 and will still sell for 65% of the value that I purchased it at (bought for $22k, will sell for $14k as it sits now). It's fast, gets great gas mileage, has leather, 6 speed, has had zero recalls and zero issues whatsoever that required any kind of maintenance other than brake pads and oil changes, and has great resale value. I couldn't really ask for more from a car right now.

[morphius]

How is that better mileage?? That's worse in the city, where the hybrid is supposed to actually do something, and marginally better on the highway. For mixed driving, the Camry is going to beat the pants off the Aura.

Still, I'm not really sure why this is strictly a Toyota vs GM thing. My Honda 4 cylinder gets 32 city, 38 highway, runs 13s in the quarter mile, was built in 2002 and will still sell for 65% of the value that I purchased it at (bought for $22k, will sell for $14k as it sits now). It's fast, gets great gas mileage, has leather, 6 speed, has had zero recalls and zero issues whatsoever that required any kind of maintenance other than brake pads and oil changes, and has great resale value. I couldn't really ask for more from a car right now.
'Cause bringing up Toyota gets under his skin the most :D

[Mosbonian]

What about it? If you can read between the lines who do you think told them to buy the camrys? :hmmm: .Also you drove Ford dodge and plymouth. Are any of them GM? NO you also bought them when? In the 90s worst time for american made cars. You also didnt answer the final question. Have you went out and looked at the new cars other than Toyota?

Have I gone (not went)out and looked at other cars than Toyota....absolutely. Many times.....but each time I come back to Toyota....for price and dependability. The only thing, IMO, that GM makes well is trucks.

Oh....and recxjake, before you tout how well GM is doing, you might want to take a peek at their 10-K they recently filed. Seems like they are just as good at accounting as they are at making quality cars....

http://biz.yahoo.com/seekingalpha/070319/29983_id.html?.v=1

mmaddog
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