Chiefs aren't crazy, just greedy

[The Poz]

Yeah I know, another Trent to Miami thread. Tough!

http://www.realfootball365.com/nfl/articles/2007/03/chiefs-arentcrazy-greedy300307.html

When the news broke recently that the Kansas City Chiefs are looking to acquire a second-round draft pick in exchange for veteran quarterback Trent Green, some were understandably puzzled.

My colleague here at RealFootball365.com, Hugo Guzman, characterized the Chiefs as "flat-out insane" and "zany" for demanding a high pick for such an old player.

Alain Poupart of DolphinDigest.com had this to say about Kansas City GM Carl Peterson:

"Hello! Earth to Carl! Anybody home?"

"Come on, get serious. A second-round pick for a quarterback every team knows is done in Kansas City?"

Oh, believe me, Alain, Carl is serious. He's getting very serious about this deal. He's so serious, in fact, that he's going to hold onto Green as long as it takes to get what he wants.

That doesn't mean, however, that Peterson is necessarily demanding a second-round pick. This is simply the art of negotiation unfolding.

The Dolphins offered a seventh-round pick in exchange for Green last week. The Chiefs would be better off keeping Green on the roster if that's all they can get for him.

Peterson will gladly meet Miami somewhere in the middle -- say, the fourth round. But he's got the Dolphins right where he wants them.

Green and the Dolphins had all but agreed to a contract a week ago. It was then that Peterson upped the ante. He knows it's pretty much Green or bust at this point for Miami.

Miami wants to win now. Why else would it sign the 30-year-old Joey Porter, improving an already old defense? Green is just another extension of that.

David Carr isn't a realistic option. He'd have to learn the offense that Green has already mastered, which is why Miami head coach Cam Cameron wants the 14-year veteran. Peterson will continue to dangle the carrot in front of the Dolphins' nose.

And now, things get really dicey for Miami. With the Detroit Lions and, recently, the Cleveland Browns entering the picture, there's substantial competition for Green's services. That's only a good thing for the Chiefs, and only a bad thing for Miami.

If Miami loses out on Green, where does the team turn? The offense will be a mess without him, especially if the Dolphins draft Brady Quinn and are forced to play him immediately.

It usually takes a season for the receivers in the Coryell offense (Cameron's system) to get acclimated. With Green, that transition is smoother. Without him, it's a disaster in the making. Carr won't help, and neither will a rookie.

The Dolphins will have no choice but to play ball the way Peterson wants them to. Given the fact Detroit has four fifth-round draft choices (one of which came from the Dolphins), Miami may be at a disadvantage at the bargaining table, especially since it doesn't have a pick in the fifth round.

Wouldn't it be ironic if Detroit acquired Green with one of Miami's picks?

I don't see the Dolphins letting that happen -- especially since Green has already stated Miami is his preferred destination. Peterson will give Green what he wants, and give Miami its quarterback -- for the right price, even if it takes a little longer.

So, no, the Chiefs and Peterson haven't lost their minds. They're just following the principles of basic economics. Supply is low, demand is high. The price has gone up.

[Phobia]

Pretty decent article from Gochiefs.

I love the Hugo Guzman name. Maybe that should be in his new name thread.

[Huffman83]

Trent is at least worth a 4th round pick. Peterson is at least doing his job (for a change) by stirring bullshit. Because really....we know that Trent is barely worth a 4th round pick.

[Wile_E_Coyote]

McNair was for a 4th. That looks like a mistake

[Mile High Mania]

I hope the writer asked for a reach around from Carl after typing that...

[Sure-Oz]

I would be happy with a 5th rounder but what we can for him. I still think he can be as solid as he was with some protection.

[Mr. Laz]

Good .... i'm glad Carl is being greedy.



maybe this once his greed can work FOR US.



as long as he knows when to stop being greedy and take the best deal.

[Mr. Laz]

I hope the writer asked for a reach around from Carl after typing that...
pretty sure goatcheese asks carl for a reach around on a regular basis without any need for an article.

[Chiefnj]

Send Green and Dante (a WR familiar with the system) to Miami for a 4th rounder this year and conditional pick next year dependent upon the play of each.

[Skip Towne]

This has GoChiefs written all over it. Nobody else on here reads that rag.

[penguinz]

Send Green and Dante (a WR familiar with the system) to Miami for a 4th rounder this year and conditional pick next year dependent upon the play of each.
We might be better off just shipping Dante off to a circus for midgets.

[orange]

From the fan comments on the page:

"Preposterous. There are 7.2 million reasons Trent Green won't be playing in Detroit, Cleveland or Kansas City this year, and Randy Mueller of the Dolphins certainly knows this. None of this is anything but smoke until TG starts talking contract with any of the above."

[L.A. Chieffan]

Who cares? Either we trade him for a mid-round pick or he stays and is a valuable asset off the bench and with tutoring Croyle.
It's pretty much a win-win.

[penguinz]

From the fan comments on the page:

"Preposterous. There are 7.2 million reasons Trent Green won't be playing in Detroit, Cleveland or Kansas City this year, and Randy Mueller of the Dolphins certainly knows this. None of this is anything but smoke until TG starts talking contract with any of the above."
Word is he already has a contract worked out with Miami it is jut a matter of compensation to the Chiefs at this point.

[Chiefnj]

Who cares? Either we trade him for a mid-round pick or he stays and is a valuable asset off the bench and with tutoring Croyle.
It's pretty much a win-win.

He's not staying unless he takes a pay cut. Plus, there is no way in hell Herm wants Green sitting on the bench.

[orange]

Word is he already has a contract worked out with Miami it is jut a matter of compensation to the Chiefs at this point.

Exactly. Which is why Miami isn't concerned with any so-called interest shown by Detroit or Cleveland or whatever other team Peterson throws into the mix next.

[Wile_E_Coyote]

Like Surtain, it will be draft day or the day before

[Mr. Laz]

Exactly. Which is why Miami isn't concerned with any so-called interest shown by Detroit or Cleveland or whatever other team Peterson throws into the mix next.

Chiefs need to go to Green and say "If you want to get traded now then help us get more back in trade ... start taking to other teams so Miami with raise their offer. You win, We win ... and we can both move on"


something like that ..... unless Peterson has already told Trent to STFD and ST.FU of course.

[orange]

Chiefs need to go to Green and say "If you want to get traded now then help us get more back in trade ... start taking to other teams so Miami with raise their offer. You win, We win ... and we can both move on"


something like that ..... unless Peterson has already told Trent to STFD and ST.FU of course.

Except Trent will be a Dolphin and it will be in his competitive interest if the Dolphins screw the Chiefs, right?

[Mr. Laz]

Except Trent will be a Dolphin and it will be in his competitive interest if the Dolphins screw the Chiefs, right?
not if we hold him so long that he doesn't have time to learn Miami's offense and gel before the regular season.


if we hold him long enough, he value to Miami drops like a rock for this year .... and Trent only has so many years left.

Green has a vested interest in getting to his new team ASAP so he can be a viable guy for them THIS year.

[orange]

The Chiefs will only hold him till his salary counts against the cap. Isn't that early June?

Green is a long time veteran familiar with Cam Cameron's system. He won't need much time to acclimate.

[htismaqe]

The Chiefs will only hold him till his salary counts against the cap. Isn't that early June?

Green is a long time veteran familiar with Cam Cameron's system. He won't need much time to acclimate.

August.

[penguinz]

The Chiefs will only hold him till his salary counts against the cap. Isn't that early June?

Green is a long time veteran familiar with Cam Cameron's system. He won't need much time to acclimate.You are right. He will develop chemistry with his wide receivers overnight.
:shake:

[Mr. Laz]

The Chiefs will only hold him till his salary counts against the cap. Isn't that early June?

Green is a long time veteran familiar with Cam Cameron's system. He won't need much time to acclimate.
we have plenty of cap room ....... we can hold him all the way through until we have make roster cuts.

this is the kind of stuff you do to help your team get better.

a 100k worth of cap space to hold Green through training camp with be worth it if it helps us get a higher draft pick.


besides holding on to Green longer also protects us in case of injury to Huard/Croyle.

not to mention it sends a message to the rest of the league ..... we will do whatever it takes to get a better deal, so just give it to us to begin with.

[stlchiefs]

Interesting, throughout the whole article and all the talk about Miami's QB options, NO mention of Culpepper?

[orange]

"Under the NFL's agreement with the NFLPA, (with a few rare exceptions) the salary cap effects of guaranteed payments to players are prorated over the term of a contract. A $10 million dollar signing bonus on a four year contract counts as $2.5 million towards the cap during each of those four years. If a player retires, is traded, or is cut before June 1st, all remaining bonus is applied to the salary cap for the current season. If after June 1st, the current cap is unchanged, and the next year's cap must absorb the entire remaining bonus."

If TG is cut or traded after June 1, his whole CURRENT bonus counts against next year's KANSAS CITY CHIEFS cap, regardless of what his new employer-friendly contract with Miami (or whoever) calls for.

[htismaqe]

"Under the NFL's agreement with the NFLPA, (with a few rare exceptions) the salary cap effects of guaranteed payments to players are prorated over the term of a contract. A $10 million dollar signing bonus on a four year contract counts as $2.5 million towards the cap during each of those four years. If a player retires, is traded, or is cut before June 1st, all remaining bonus is applied to the salary cap for the current season. If after June 1st, the current cap is unchanged, and the next year's cap must absorb the entire remaining bonus."

If TG is cut or traded after June 1, his whole CURRENT bonus counts against next year's KANSAS CITY CHIEFS cap, regardless of what his new employer-friendly contract with Miami (or whoever) calls for.

We have the cap space to absorb it.

[orange]

... And of course, any draft picks acquired after the draft will be by necessity FUTURE draft picks (hence, less valuable and of no current use). I hope the reason for this is obvious...

[Mr. Laz]

"Under the NFL's agreement with the NFLPA, (with a few rare exceptions) the salary cap effects of guaranteed payments to players are prorated over the term of a contract. A $10 million dollar signing bonus on a four year contract counts as $2.5 million towards the cap during each of those four years. If a player retires, is traded, or is cut before June 1st, all remaining bonus is applied to the salary cap for the current season. If after June 1st, the current cap is unchanged, and the next year's cap must absorb the entire remaining bonus."

If TG is cut or traded after June 1, his whole CURRENT bonus counts against next year's KANSAS CITY CHIEFS cap, regardless of what his new employer-friendly contract with Miami (or whoever) calls for.
actually i believe they changed some of that


to encourage trades they have changed it to allow teams to treat trades like cuts. The team can then choose how to allocate the signing bonus impact to their salary cap.

40%/60% ... 50%/50% ..... 60%/40% options for current year and next year.


i don't know the specifics of what is required .... but the Chiefs still have plent of cap room. IIRC the chiefs didn't even use all their cap room last year. They didn't spend more because the Hunts didn't want to spend more 'actual cash'

TG's signing bonus is already spent ... it's only a matter of when it counts on the books.

imo that's worth a better draft pick, it's part of the rebuilding process.

[ct]

Somebody w/ nflpa.org access please look up Trent's signing bonus. Once he is traded/released, NONE of the salary matters, only the remaining bonus (for his last 3 years).

[Mr. Laz]

... And of course, any draft picks acquired after the draft will be by necessity FUTURE draft picks (hence, less valuable and of no current use). I hope the reason for this is obvious...
less valuable .... yes

but for a team building for the future, the same real team value.


but trading for a "future pick" ... teams often get a higher pick. 1 round of value for each year payment is deferred in the general rate.


so by trading Trent Green after the draft we could actually get a pick 1 round higher than we would this year.


we aren't winning this year anyway ... so a 3rd pick next year holds almost the same value as a 4th round pick this year FOR US.

[Mr. Laz]

Somebody w/ nflpa.org access please look up Trent's signing bonus. Once he is traded/released, NONE of the salary matters, only the remaining bonus (for his last 3 years).
i don't think they include the signing bonus information on NFLpa.org


wasn't it 8 million dollars?



IIRC Green got 8 and Tony got 10 million .. or was it priest?

[ct]

$8M does ring a bell, let's go with that for arguments sake.

$8M over 7 years = $1.14M per year.

There is 3 years left on the contract, so if all that were to roll up to '07, we're looking at $3.42M cap hit. This compared to his $7.2 BASE SALARY for 2007, we're shaving quite a bit. I

If we can split that over 2 years, it's even better.

[Warrior5]

Send Green and Dante (a WR familiar with the system) to Miami for a 4th rounder this year and conditional pick next year dependent upon the play of each.

Add Hicks and Sims to the package...how could Miami say no?

[Mr. Laz]

$8M does ring a bell, let's go with that for arguments sake.

$8M over 7 years = $1.14M per year.

There is 3 years left on the contract, so if all that were to roll up to '07, we're looking at $3.42M cap hit. This compared to his $7.2 BASE SALARY for 2007, we're shaving quite a bit. I

If we can split that over 2 years, it's even better.
yep ... bottom line is that we can do whatever is better for the team.


holding Green for a higher pick and for insurance in case of injury seems to be the best thing imo.


if another team loses a veteran QB to injury, Trent Green's value could skyrocket.

[alanm]

Except Trent will be a Dolphin and it will be in his competitive interest if the Dolphins screw the Chiefs, right?
No.. You're confusing Green, who is a stand up guy, with Plummer who bent you guys over the table by retiring. ROFL

[htismaqe]

$8M does ring a bell, let's go with that for arguments sake.

$8M over 7 years = $1.14M per year.

There is 3 years left on the contract, so if all that were to roll up to '07, we're looking at $3.42M cap hit. This compared to his $7.2 BASE SALARY for 2007, we're shaving quite a bit. I

If we can split that over 2 years, it's even better.

Bingo.

We're on the hook for his base salary once the GAMES START. So we don't have to cut him until late August.

[ct]

Bingo.

We're on the hook for his base salary once the GAMES START. So we don't have to cut him until late August.

Although it wouldn't be the best 'team chemistry' thing to do, but as of right now, we are so far under the cap for this year, we can keep him at current salary, and still have plenty to sign our rookies and/or late FA fill-in guys. That's a pretty slim chance we would do that I think, but we can, and Carl knows it.

[orange]

We're on the hook for his base salary once the GAMES START. So we don't have to cut him until late August.

... or whenever you actually want to use that $7.2 million cap room to sign players who will actually play for the Chiefs. It's a hard cap - you have to be under it at all times, even before the pay checks are cut.

[Edit] I wrote this before I saw the coryt post above (too many windows open at once).

Do you really think staying well under the cap is the way to win? Is that SOP for the Chiefs?

[ct]

... or whenever you actually want to use that $7.2 million cap room to sign players who will actually play for the Chiefs. It's a hard cap - you have to be under it at all times, even before the pay checks are cut.

[Edit] I wrote this before I saw the coryt post above (too many windows open at once).

Do you really think staying well under the cap is the way to win? Is that SOP for the Chiefs?

Obviously nothing we've done the last 35 years is the way to win, so I'm game for anything.

[htismaqe]

Obviously nothing we've done the last 35 years is the way to win, so I'm game for anything.

Exactly.

[ChiefaRoo]

This has GoChiefs written all over it. Nobody else on here reads that rag.

Skip I thought we agreed. I wouldn't bust your balls and you wouldn't speak. Your pushing it. :)

[TEX]

The whole "Win Now" thing sounds all too familiar...I'm betting that Green will end up in Miami but he won't "win now" - it's gonna take awhile. It might not ever happen because he's not the same QB and their OL is not that good.

[KcMizzou]

The whole "Win Now" thing sounds all too familiar...I'm betting that Green will end up in Miami but he won't "win now" - it's gonna take awhile. It might not ever happen because he's not the same QB and their OL is not that good.Shhhhhhhh

[Hammock Parties]

Wow. I'm famous.

[Hammock Parties]

I hope the writer asked for a reach around from Carl after typing that...

Heh. I tried not to be too complimentary. Believe me, I've seen worse. You have to admit Carl is doing a pretty good job this offseason tho.

[Toad]

$8M does ring a bell, let's go with that for arguments sake.

$8M over 7 years = $1.14M per year.

There is 3 years left on the contract, so if all that were to roll up to '07, we're looking at $3.42M cap hit. This compared to his $7.2 BASE SALARY for 2007, we're shaving quite a bit. I

If we can split that over 2 years, it's even better.

With all the restructuring, it's hard to keep track, but I wrote down a few years back that Trent signed a 7 year deal in 03 with a signing bonus of $12.6mm. 12.6/7 = $1.8mm per year. Using that math, it rolls up to $5.4mm cap hit. His Base salary is $7.7mm in 2008, FYI.

[Toad]

not if we hold him so long that he doesn't have time to learn Miami's offense and gel before the regular season.


if we hold him long enough, he value to Miami drops like a rock for this year .... and Trent only has so many years left.

Green has a vested interest in getting to his new team ASAP so he can be a viable guy for them THIS year.

Right.

Plus, this is my own speculation, but I've got to think that 2nd rounder that Miami held Carl up for a couple of years ago for Surtain is still eating at him. Considering that history, the 7th Miami offered is a spit in his face. I think Carl's ego would rather let Trent rot on the roster than let Miami get him for basically nothing.

[Brock]

... or whenever you actually want to use that $7.2 million cap room to sign players who will actually play for the Chiefs. It's a hard cap - you have to be under it at all times, even before the pay checks are cut.

The Chiefs aren't going to sign any expensive free agents this year. Probably not next year either.

[Phobia]

Except Trent will be a Dolphin and it will be in his competitive interest if the Dolphins screw the Chiefs, right?
I'm guessing players don't really concern themselves too much with the pick compensation side of the business other than to stroke their ego. From what I understand about Green, his ego doesn't really need a stroking. I think he's pretty content with what he has and who he is at this point in his life.

[orange]

http://www.miamiherald.com/588/story/57753.html

Agent: Green's talks have only been with Fins
BY BARRY JACKSON
bjackson@MiamiHerald.com


"Although Cleveland and Detroit have expressed interest in Chiefs quarterback Trent Green, his representative has spoken only to the Dolphins, and trade discussions are ongoing between Miami and Kansas City, agent Jim Steiner said Thursday.

The Dolphins this week have remained intent on waiting out the Green situation instead of making a bid for quarterback David Carr, who was released by the Houston Texans last week. The Dolphins have expressed interest in Carr but have not made an offer or scheduled a visit. Carr is expected to visit next week with Carolina, which also will meet with former Dolphin Joey Harrington, and Seattle.

Although Green and the Dolphins have agreed on what he would be paid if he comes to Miami, the Dolphins have refused to meet the Chiefs' asking price of a second-round pick.

''They've had conversations, but it's going very slowly,'' Steiner said of the Dolphins and Chiefs.

Unless a team is willing to pay Green's $7.2 million salary next season -- which is unlikely -- then Green hypothetically could dictate where he ends up by refusing to negotiate a restructured contract with a team other than Miami, which is his first choice. But the Chiefs have not received any such ultimatum from Green, who -- with Carr on the market -- appears willing to consider all options.

Steiner and the Chiefs also have discussed the possibility of Green being released -- something that could happen by late April if he hasn't been traded."