swap third-round picks for Green?

[blackhawk]

Browns | Savage in no hurry on Green trade
Fri, 6 Apr 2007 14:11:27 -0700

Steve Doerschuk, of the Canton Repository, reports Cleveland Browns general manager Phil Savage is not in a hurry to try to trade for Kansas City Chiefs QB Trent Green and said that the situation may not be resolved until the weekend of the 2007 NFL Draft. It is believed Savage will not offer anything more that a fifth-round pick, however he may swap third-round picks for Green.

[Hoover]

I don't mind swaping 3rds, iut would mean we get the 3rd pick in the 3rd round.

[carlos3652]

Blah...

Hold out for the extra pick... We need extra picks... either that or swap 3rds and a 6th...

Man Green's value is moved up for a 5th... something the Dolphins dont have... I think Miami will have to offer a 4th to pry him...

[CoMoChief]

I don't mind swaping 3rds, iut would mean we get the 3rd pick in the 3rd round.

Yep. I like that. Wouldnt surprise me if they throw in a 6th or something. Carl will work something out. If anything this gives us leverage for any other team that wants to shop for Green.

[CupidStunt]

I'd prefer swapping thirds than getting a fifth-rounder or lower. Easily.

[Bowser]

I'd prefer swapping thirds than getting a fifth-rounder or lower. Easily.

Yep.

Just to sweeten the deal, we could throw our '08 seventh rounder in there.

[Hammock Parties]

You guys wouldn't rather have another player?

[58-4ever]

there's pretty good value moving that far in the 3rd round.

[htismaqe]

Swapping 3rd with the Browns would be AWESOME. Moving up 20 or so slots in the 3rd would be tremendous value for Green.

[BigMeatballDave]

I'd swap 3rds rather than take a 5th.

[StcChief]

Extra pick where? 5th no.

move up 20 slot in the 3rd yes.

[Bowser]

You guys wouldn't rather have another player?

For the chance to move up 20 spots in the third round? No.

[siberian khatru]

Swapping 3rd with the Browns would be AWESOME. Moving up 20 or so slots in the 3rd would be tremendous value for Green.

That's a 100-point jump in value in the 3rd round. That's more than two times what the Browns' No. 5 is worth.

[StcChief]

3rd round swap is the best bet. Do it Carl.

[PastorMikH]

Swap 1sts and I'd pull the trigger so fast everyone would be asking who our last QB was. Swap seconds, I'd think about it. Thirds, I don't know.


At this point I really don't see Green going anywhere until a day or two before the draft - but more likely the day of the draft. As teams start making stronger indications of who they will draft - or teams realizing the QB they were hoping would drop to them doesn't, then Green goes. Anything before that would surprise me.

[FAX]

That's a 100-point jump in value in the 3rd round. That's more than two times what the Browns' No. 5 is worth.

Although I am surely running the risk of appearing so completely ignorant that Mr. htismaqe may feel it necessary to ban me, my progeny, and every possible iteration of my username from ChiefsPlanet for all eternity, I have to ask ... what is this point system to which you are referring, Mr. siberian khatru? I am very curious.

Thank you in advance for your kind consideration and response to this humble interrogatory.

FAX

[OnTheWarpath15]

Swapping 3rd with the Browns would be AWESOME. Moving up 20 or so slots in the 3rd would be tremendous value for Green.

I mentioned in another thread yesterday that the swap of R3 picks nets the Chiefs 85 points on the trade value chart.

The only thing comparable to that would be Cleveland R4 pick, which is worth 88 points.

I'd be OK with either.....the swap in R3 is a significant jump, and getting a R4 nets us an extra player. Plus, it's better than anything Miami would realistically give us, since they are behind Cleveland in the draft order by 4-5 spots.....

[OnTheWarpath15]

Although I am surely running the risk of appearing so completely ignorant that Mr. htismaqe may feel it necessary to ban me, my progeny, and every possible iteration of my username from ChiefsPlanet for all eternity, I have to ask ... what is this point system to which you are referring, Mr. siberian khatru? I am very curious.

Thank you in advance for your kind consideration and response to this humble interrogatory.

FAX

Here you go, Mr. FAX.......

http://www.ourlads.com/nfldraftvalue.cfm

[FAX]

Hmmm. Trade value chart? Link?

EDIT: Many thanks, Mr. OnTheWarpath58.

FAX

[Hammock Parties]

The draft is a crapshoot. I'd rather have another player.

[OnTheWarpath15]

The draft is a crapshoot. I'd rather have another player.

I'm operating on the sluggish side today, but who's this other player you keep speaking of?

[Hammock Parties]

I'm operating on the sluggish side today, but who's this other player you keep speaking of?

I'd rather draft 7 players instead of 6.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I'd rather draft 7 players instead of 6.


Oh. An extra pick.

Used in the draft.

Which is a crapshoot.

[Hammock Parties]

Oh. An extra pick.

Used in the draft.

Which is a crapshoot.

It's less of a crapshoot if you draft MORE players.

[OnTheWarpath15]

It's less of a crapshoot if you draft MORE players.

I was ****ing with you.

As I said earlier, I'd be fine either way. Both options have their benefits.

[milkman]

It's less of a crapshoot if you draft MORE players.

No, that's not true.

When you're talking about extra picks in the 5th, 6th, and 7th rounds, you are really talking about crapshoot.

[Hammock Parties]

If we could move up in the second I'd probably take it. It seems to me like there's a lot of really good talent early in the 2nd round...but would be reaches in the 1st. I'd love to get Joe Staley with the Brown's 2nd.

[Hammock Parties]

No, that's not true.

When you're talking about extra picks in the 5th, 6th, and 7th rounds, you are really talking about crapshoot.

Actually I was talking about a fourth rounder. With the Chiefs draft history on the second day, I'd rather have a pick in every round.

[Tribal Warfare]

I'd prefer swapping thirds than getting a fifth-rounder or lower. Easily.


I concur

[FAX]

So, if you shoot for crap picks in the crappy rounds, the odds of shooting crap increase whereas if you crap your shot in the upper rounds, the crap you shoot for might not be as crappy? Shoot.

FAX

[Hammock Parties]

I just subscribe to the theory of not placing all your eggs in one basket.

[BigRock]

If we could move up in the second I'd probably take it. It seems to me like there's a lot of really good talent early in the 2nd round...but would be reaches in the 1st. I'd love to get Joe Staley with the Brown's 2nd.
I haven't looked at the chart, but trading 2nd round picks would probably be pretty expensive. If they're willing to swap 3rd rounders, though, Carl should at least look into it. Like you said, some really good players are going to be available there.

[Mecca]

Picking 3rd in the 3rd round is much better than getting a 5th round pick........

Moving up 20 spots there basically says you get a 2nd round talent at the top of round 3.

[the Talking Can]

Here's the 3rd round from last year....would a swap from 23 to 3 have been worth it?

just an test case

1(65) Houston Charles Spencer OG PITTSBURGH
2(66) Houston (from New Orleans) Eric Winston OT MIAMI
3(67) Green Bay Abdul Hodge ILB IOWA
4(68) St. Louis (from Denver to San Fran) Claude Wroten DT
5(69) Oakland Paul McQuistan OT WEBER STATE
6(70) Buffalo (from Tenn) Ashton Youboty CB OHIO STATE
7(71) Philadelphia (from NY Jets) Chris Gocong DE CAL POLY
8(72) Arizona Leonard Pope TE GEORGIA
9(73) Chicago (from Buffalo) Dusty Dvoracek DT OKLAHOMA
10(74) Detroit Brian Calhoun RB WISCONSIN
11(75) Green Bay (New England to Baltimore) Jason Spitz OC
12(76) NY Jets (from Philadelphia) Anthony Schlegel ILB
13(77) St. Louis Jon Alston OLB STANFORD
14(78) Cleveland Travis Wilson WR OKLAHOMA
15(79) Atlanta Jerious Norwood RB MISSISSIPPI STATE
16(80) Jacksonville (from Dallas) Clint Ingram OLB OKLAHOMA
17(81) San Diego Charlie Whitehurst QB CLEMSON
18(82) Miami Derek Hagan WR ARIZONA STATE
19(83) Pittsburgh (from Minnesota) Anthony Smith S
20(84) San Francisco (from Washington) Brandon Williams WR
21(85) Kansas City Brodie Croyle QB ALABAMA
22(86) New England David Thomas TE TEXAS
23(87) Baltimore (from NYG) David Pittman CB NORTHWESTERN ST
24(88) Carolina (from Chicago) James Anderson OLB VIRGINIA Tech
25(89) Carolina Rashad Butler OT MIAMI (FLA.)
26(90) Tampa Bay Maurice Stovall WR NOTRE DAME
27(91) Cincinnati Frostee Rucker DE USC
28(92) Dallas (from Jacks) Jason Hatcher DE GRAMBLING
29(93) St. Louis () Dominique Byrd TE USC
30(94) Indianapolis Freddie Keiaho ILB SAN DIEGO STATE
31(95) Pittsburgh () Willie Reid RS FLORIDA STATE
32(96) NY Giants () Gerris Wilkinson ILB GEORGIA TECH
33(97) NY Jets (Comp) Eric Smith S MICHIGAN STATE

[Tribal Warfare]

Here's the 3rd round from last year....would a swap from 23 to 3 have been worth it?




Yes, always a better chance in getting the BPA of that round.

[Hammock Parties]

Imagine trading up to draft the next Siavii....and then missing out on the next Jared Allen.

[Mecca]

I enjoy that GoChiefs is legit trying to say a 5th round pick is better to have than a high 3rd round pick........

[Hammock Parties]

I enjoy that GoChiefs is legit trying to say a 5th round pick is better to have than a high 3rd round pick........

That's not what I'm trying to say at all.

I'm just saying I'd rather have a draft with seven picks instead of six.

[the Talking Can]

it is possible that swapping could be worthless, if they player we choose would have (hypothetically) dropped any way....there is no way to know, of course, so who ****ing cares...

[Mecca]

If you could trade your 5th round pick to move up 20 spots in the draft you wouldn't do it........most every other team would.

[Hammock Parties]

If you could trade your 5th round pick to move up 20 spots in the draft you wouldn't do it........most every other team would.

You move up 20 spots in round three for 10 years and draft six players. I'll draft seven players each year for 10 years. We'll see who has the better team.

[milkman]

You move up 20 spots in round three for 10 years and draft six players. I'll draft seven players each year for 10 years. We'll see who has the better team.

Ther is almost no chance that you'd have the better team.

[Mecca]

He doesn't understand that high 3rd round picks pan out alot more frequently than anyone on the 2nd day does.

[orange]

I must agree with GoChiefs on this, at least until Draft Day. There's no reason today to think the player you would take at 67 is any different than the one you would take at 85. Not until the situation is much clearer does that swap mean anything.

Or, take last year as an example. If the Chiefs had made this swap and picked third in the third round, who would they have taken instead of Brodie Croyle?

[Hammock Parties]

He doesn't understand that high 3rd round picks pan out alot more frequently than anyone on the 2nd day does.

Prove it.

[Mecca]

I'm sure Boomer Grigsby is really makin the difference for the Chiefs......

Anyhow the Chiefs are a bad example because for the better part of a decade they haven't understood how to use a 2nd round pick let alone a 3rd round pick.

[the Talking Can]

I must agree with GoChiefs on this, at least until Draft Day. There's no reason today to think the player you would take at 67 is any different than the one you would take at 85. Not until the situation is much clearer does that swap mean anything.

Or, take last year as an example. If the Chiefs had made this swap and picked third in the third round, who would they have taken instead of Brodie Croyle?


see post 34

[orange]

see post 34

Sorry. Having time-warp problems here. 3/4 of the posts on that page weren't there (on my screen) when I hit "submit reply."

Anyway, given that info, does anyone think the Chiefs would have done better swapping up?

[Edit] By the way, for full disclosure, you also need to post who was available from round five on, don't you? - you know, for that extra pick.

[Hammock Parties]

Here are the players taken at 3-23 in the last 10 years:

Dedric Ward, Rashaan Shehee, Anthony Cesario, Doug Chapman, Morlon Greenwood, Chris Baker, Dave Ragone, Darrion Scott, Sione Pouha, James Anderson

Here are the players taken at 5-23 in the last 10 years:

Sean Woodson, Chris Howard, Roderick Coleman, Dante' Hall, Onome Ojo, Ramon Walker, Jordan Black, Roderick Green, Adam Kieft, Anthony Montgomery

----------------------------------------------------

Here are the players taken at 3-4 in the last 10 years:

Jay Graham, Leonard Little, Cory Hall, Ron Dugans, Sean Brewer, Saleem Rasheed, Lance Briggs, Stuart Schweigert, Courtney Roby, Claude Wroten


Which group would you take?

[Mecca]

That post is extremely confusing........

[Direckshun]

Here are the players taken at 3-23 in the last 10 years:

Dedric Ward, Rashaan Shehee, Anthony Cesario, Doug Chapman, Morlon Greenwood, Chris Baker, Dave Ragone, Darrion Scott, Sione Pouha, James Anderson

Here are the players taken at 5-23 in the last 10 years:

Sean Woodson, Chris Howard, Roderick Coleman, Dante' Hall, Onome Ojo, Ramon Walker, Jordan Black, Roderick Green, Adam Kieft, Anthony Montgomery

----------------------------------------------------

Here are the players taken at 3-4 in the last 10 years:

Jay Graham, Leonard Little, Cory Hall, Ron Dugans, Sean Brewer, Saleem Rasheed, Lance Briggs, Stuart Schweigert, Courtney Roby, Claude Wroten

Which group would you take?
ONOME OJO FTW

[Hammock Parties]

That post is extremely confusing........

The Giants confuse me. Why didn't they give Kawika Mitchell $30 million?

[Mecca]

The Giants confuse me. Why didn't they give Kawika Mitchell $30 million?

Because he sucks?

[Mecca]

Look here's the comparison of 3-23 in round 3 and round 5 last year....

Round 3

67 Green Bay Abdul Hodge MLB Iowa
68 St. Louis Claude Wroten DT Louisiana State
69 Oakland Paul McQuistan G Weber State
70 Buffalo Ashton Youboty CB Ohio State
71 Philadelphia Chris Gocong LB Cal Poly-SLO
72 Arizona Leonard Pope TE Georgia
73 Chicago Dusty Dvoracek DT Oklahoma
74 Detroit Brian Calhoun RB Wisconsin
75 Green Bay Jason Spitz G Louisville
76 N.Y. Jets Anthony Schlegel MLB Ohio State
77 St. Louis Jon Alston OLB Stanford
78 Cleveland Travis Wilson WR Oklahoma
79 Atlanta Jerious Norwood RB Mississippi State
80 Jacksonville Clint Ingram OLB Oklahoma
81 San Diego Charlie Whitehurst QB Clemson
82 Miami Derek Hagan WR Arizona State
83 Pittsburgh Anthony Smith FS Syracuse
84 San Francisco Brandon Williams WR Wisconsin
85 Kansas City Brodie Croyle QB Alabama
86 New England David Thomas TE Texas
87 Baltimore David Pittman CB Northwestern State, La

Round 5

136 New England Ryan O'Callaghan T California
137 Tennessee Terna Nande LB Miami, O.
138 Dallas Pat Watkins FS Florida State
139 Atlanta Quinn Ojinnaka T Syracuse
140 San Francisco Parys Haralson OLB Tennessee
141 Detroit Jonathan Scott T Texas
142 Arizona Brandon Johnson OLB Louisville
143 Buffalo Brad Butler T Virginia
144 St. Louis Marques Hagans WR Virginia
145 Cleveland Jerome Harrison RB Washington State
146 Baltimore Dawan Landry SS Georgia Tech
147 Philadelphia Jeremy Bloom WR Colorado
148 Green Bay Ingle Martin QB Furman
149 Minnesota Greg Blue SS Georgia
150 N.Y. Jets Jason Pociask TE Wisconsin
151 San Diego Tim Dobbins ILB Iowa State
152 Cleveland DeMario Minter DB Georgia
153 Washington Anthony Montgomery DT Minnesota
154 Kansas City Marcus Maxey CB Miami
155 Carolina Jeff King TE Virginia Tech
156 Tampa Bay Julian Jenkins DE Stanford


You can see the difference in the quality even as the 3rd round closes out....

[Hammock Parties]

Actually, I got that wrong. Instead of 5-23, it should be 4-4. Here are the 4-4 players from the last 10 years.

Henri Crockett, Az-Zahir Hakim, Anthony Parker, Na'il Diggs, Roberto Garza, Jeff Chandler, Domanick Williams, Alex Stepanovich, Ray Willis, Darnell Bing

[bsp4444]

Any chance we can see the third round from two or three years ago? It's more likely that your drafting for depth or grooming a player from the third round, not an immediate starter.

[KChiefs1]

I believe the draft value chart says the swapping of 3rd round picks is better than getting a 5th rounder for Trent.

[ct]

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/football/nfl/cleveland_browns/17046917.htm?source=rss&channel=ohio_cleveland_browns

McManamon on the Browns
Audibles aplenty as QB position remains up in air
It could be Frye, Anderson, Green, Russell or Quinn
By Patrick McManamon
Trent Green seems an unlikely addition to the Browns' quarterback position, which continues to be vexing.

The Browns have inquired about Green, but many factors stack against them.

Two league insiders said last week that Green's most likely destination is Miami, and the Browns' chances are slim at best.

Nothing seems to even be happening.

``There is nothing to report about Cleveland,'' Green's agent, Jim Steiner, said in an e-mail to the South Florida Sun-Sentinel.

The reason the Browns' odds seem slim? Most in the league believe Green wants to play for the Miami Dolphins. Quarterback coach Terry Shea is his best friend, and head coach Cam Cameron was Green's quarterback coach with the Washington Redskins when Green broke into the league.

The Dolphins originally offered the Kansas City Chiefs a seventh-round choice for Green. The Chiefs' Carl Peterson countered that he wanted a second-round pick.

And it was Peterson who went public with the Browns' interest in Green -- an obvious attempt to stir up interest league-wide, or to put pressure on the Dolphins to offer more.

That leaves the Browns with the two players who team officials insist they'd be satisfied to have as they head into the 2007 season: Charlie Frye and Derek Anderson.

Frye comes off a season in which he completed almost 65 percent of his throws, but threw 17 interceptions compared with 10 touchdowns. The Browns have a ``yeah, but'' attitude about Frye's season, though.

``There were a lot of things that ended up in Charlie's lap that could have gone a different way,'' General Manager Phil Savage said at the league's annual meetings. ``I think it's a little bit unfair to judge him off of what happened last year.''

The team insists it has lost no faith in Frye, but it would like to see him improve.

``Backing off of trying to make a play every play,'' Savage said. ``I think he pressed himself last year with trying to make a play every snap because of the way things were going.

``At that position, you have to be extremely patient and let the game come to you a little bit.''

That's a lesson many young quarterbacks have to learn. Early in his career, Brett Favre was given standing ovations in Green Bay when he threw the ball away.

But Favre started his career in 1991, and in those days players were given time. In the modern-day NFL, patience is not given to quarterbacks.

Frye ended the season talking about the Browns as ``his team'' -- it's the reason he took painkilling shots in his right wrist so he could play in the finale -- and he will not concede the starting spot to anyone.

Anderson's stock still seems to have shot up.

``When (Charlie) got hurt, Derek went in there and played pretty well for three games where people said, `Wait a minute, this guy deserves a shot to see what he can do,' '' Savage said. ``I think last August, there seemed to be a pretty large gap between those two players.

``But I would say that that gap has been narrowed.''

In his four late-season games, Anderson completed 56 percent of his throws, with five touchdowns and eight interceptions -- four in his last gam, against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

But the Browns think two of the interceptions in that game were not his fault: One went off a receiver's hands, another occurred when he was hit as the team feels he was about to make a big play.

Anderson looked good initially, as he got rid of the ball quickly and stood in the pocket a little stronger and longer than Frye. But the more he played, the more his performance seemed to level off.

``That happens with young guys,'' Browns coach Romeo Crennel said.

Then there are the draftees: JaMarcus Russell and Brady Quinn. Quinn's stock seems to be rising, and he could go second -- either to the Detroit Lions or a team that trades with them.

Russell still is believed to be headed to the Oakland Raiders, a view that gained more legs when David Carr signed with the Carolina Panthers on Friday.

The Raiders might trade for Josh McCown, but McCown and Andrew Walter might not even be as good as what the Browns have. There's some talk that the Raiders might go with can't-miss wide receiver Calvin Johnson, but as one league insider said of the Raiders: ``Nobody ever knows what that team will do.''

The Raiders could wind up with Daunte Culpepper throwing to Randy Moss just as easily as they could wind up with Russell.

``You don't know what's going to happen at No. 3,'' Savage said. ``Who's to say the quarterbacks don't go one-two? You don't know. Regardless of who the player is, they're going to be a nice fit for us one way or the other.

``There's been a lot of speculation. Are we moving down, are we moving up? What are we doing? At the end of the day, if we don't do anything, we're going to get a good player.''

Green, Part II

The Browns' interest in Green isn't surprising, but it was surprising the way it happened.

On Monday at the NFL Meetings, Savage said the Browns had discussed veteran quarterbacks but decided against going after one.

He even gave specific reasons: Green wanted to be only a starter, his arm strength was not adequate, and his lack of mobility was a problem.

``I think there's too many factors to try to integrate that into where we are,'' Savage said then.

Two days later, Savage approached Peterson about Green.

What changed?

Savage learned the Dolphins deal was not done, and he started thinking that perhaps he could get Green for a second-day draft pick.

Green can easily end the talk by telling the Browns he will not accept a restructured contract. (He's due salaries of $7.2 million, $7.7 million and $9.2 million in the next three years.)

No new contract, no trade.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I believe the draft value chart says the swapping of 3rd round picks is better than getting a 5th rounder for Trent.

Yes, by a longshot.....almost double the point value, IIRC.

The only other (realistic) comparable option would be to get Cleveland's
s R4 pick.