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View Full Version : Jason Whitlock, please stop pretending...


KC Kings
04-16-2007, 09:38 AM
Jason,
For your own sake, please stop the facade. Everybody on this board has heard your radio shows, read your columns, and watched you on ESPN. Some love you, some hate you, and some love to hate you, but regardless of personal feelings everybody here reads your work. Do you think that anybody that has listened to your radio show or read your column actually believe that you are sincere about this? You had great timing with being the first black reporter to blast Jackson and Sharpton after the Imus ordeal, and now you are riding the waves to put yourself in front of one of the biggest national audiences on Oprah, the most influential person in America.

Maybe you were trying to find humor, but a lot of your statements, opinions, and shows have contained a lot of prejudice and sexist material. Just because you are wearing your church clothes and have a Sunday school attitude now, are we supposed to believe that you are any better than Sharpton or Jackson? You would be fine if this happened 20 years ago, but now that we are in the age of IT all of the skeletons in your closet are easily accessible, and will make you look like a hypocritical fool trying to make a buck off of race issues.

I know that you and your boys at the Star are frantically at work trying to get rid of all the evidence of your blatant hypocrasy, (your All-Star Sunday hangover story has already been removed from the Stars webpage, as others have noticed http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/04/12/jason-whitlock-one-last-round-for-mr-chitlins/ ), but you can't cover up all of your past. Here are just a few gems of yours from the past couple of years.


I never knew what a halfa-n!gga was, or knew that it could be used as a derogatory comment until I heard it on your show. Sure you "ran the caller off", (who happened to be a good friend of yours), but you got a good laugh out of it and made it clear you ended the call just to CYA.

My white friends and I got a good chuckle as you reffered to the black women in Vegas as "Baby's mommas on income tax refund vacations"
http://sports.aol.com/whitlock/_a/mayhem-main-event-at-nba-all-star/20070220103009990001

I especially like all of your KC Star articles talking about your favorite things, BBQ and strippers. As much as you talked and wrote about strippers, there has to be a lot more evidence out there "Strippers are as much a part of sports as cheerleaders are"
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/whitlock/030508.html

Another great example for black children everywhere in this article. Cursing and hungover from Crown. Sounds like 50 Cent.
"I'm not a big drinker, but it was a tradition for my team to lose and for me to drown my sorrows in Crown Royal and then stumble in and talk about it on the radio."http://thebiglead.com/?p=1038

You are all of sudden against gangsta rap, but YOU added yourself as a friend to gangsta rappers 57th Rouge Dog Villians.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=88750724
Perhaps young black kids can go out to your friends space and listen to "Let's get F*cked Up", and they hit the Crown Royal.

Not only are you friends with gangsta's, you help gangsta rappers such as Tech N9ne negativley unfluence more people by promoting their studio. Drinkin... and smokin... and humpin... and lovin it.
"When Jason Whitlock, a sportswriter for the Kansas City Star and sometimes sports reporter on ESPN commissioned 5150 to produce all the music for his radio show the opportunity allowed 5150 to reach a larger more mainstream audience and aided in its being recognized as a legitimate fixture in the rap hip/hop production industry"
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=80492393

[Edit: This was Scoop Jackson not Whitlock. We could replace this with his slamming David Chapelle for making money off of racial jokes, long after Chapelle gave up millions and ended his Comedy Central contract due that exact issue. ] Telling young black kids that they had a better chance at being a NBA player than a sports writer. That is good stuff! Forget learning how read and write, work on your ball handling skills...
http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/060713



I guess your degrading sexual comments towards women don't affect young black women since you perfer white white women. That blue bunny better watch out. I can't tell if you are horny or hungry.
http://www.wearethepostmen.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/whitlockladies.jpg http://sportsmed.starwave.com/media/other/2003/0130/photo/bunnies_i.jpg

Mr. Laz
04-16-2007, 09:45 AM
somebody put waaaaaaaay too much effort into Jason whitlock.

Eleazar
04-16-2007, 09:48 AM
:rolleyes:

Phobia
04-16-2007, 09:48 AM
Hey, I'm pulling for Whitlock but I said this last week.

StcChief
04-16-2007, 09:50 AM
JW Ride the outrage wave,

Because you won't be ridden by any of those chicks.

acesn8s
04-16-2007, 09:51 AM
You should just ignore him.(Whitlock) I do.

Demonpenz
04-16-2007, 09:55 AM
you know i will look past some of the shit because whitlocks opionion resembles my own

stlchiefs
04-16-2007, 09:58 AM
That explains my thinking Demon

duncan_idaho
04-16-2007, 09:59 AM
Kings,

It was Scoop Jackson that wrote the ESPN column telling black kids they had a better chance to be athletes than sports writers (check your link - that's who it goes to). Whitlock blasted him repeatedly for that - and it's probably part of the reason he no longer works for ESPN (he also had issues with Jackson - someone he thinks perpetuates negative black stereotypes - taking on the legacy of Ralph Wiley, Whitlock's hero).

Pitt Gorilla
04-16-2007, 10:00 AM
I'm curious as to how you know that Jason prefers "white white women?" I would assume that you're not concluding that based upon two pictures.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 10:02 AM
Sounds like something I've been saying all along.

Jason Whitlock is far too stupid to realize that the people he's pandering too hate his Black ass as much as they do the rappers they're conveniently targeting.

chagrin
04-16-2007, 10:03 AM
You should email him directly this post dude

vailpass
04-16-2007, 10:08 AM
Looks like somebody has become a full time hater/stalker.
Whitlock must have spoke the truth pretty close to where you live to make you go to these lengths.

KC Kings
04-16-2007, 10:09 AM
I'm curious as to how you know that Jason prefers "white white women?" I would assume that you're not concluding that based upon two pictures.

I don't need to email him. He posts here occasionaly, and has borrowed ideas for stories from here more than once. He did the Today show last week, Oprah today, he is ALL over the national media right now. If I was in his shoes I certainly wouldn't take the time to read a post from some unknown internet user.

I am not saying that he latest articles aren't dead on, but he is riding the wave only now that he can make it profitable and in order to due so has to ignore his own past.

The white woman remark is meant to be sarcastic, not fact. Jason's friends and callers regularly teased him about only liking white women.

KC Kings
04-16-2007, 10:13 AM
Looks like somebody has become a full time hater/stalker.
Whitlock must have spoke the truth pretty close to where you live to make you go to these lengths.
Not a hater or a stalker. I read the sports page and listen to sports radio so I have heard a lot of Whitlock over the years. I spent 30 minutes writing the post. I guess that time could have been spent reading/commenting on the masterbation to kitten deaths post, or reading old anger management emails?

vailpass
04-16-2007, 10:17 AM
Not a hater or a stalker. I read the sports page and listen to sports radio so I have heard a lot of Whitlock over the years. I spent 30 minutes writing the post. I guess that time could have been spent reading/commenting on the masterbation to kitten deaths post, or reading old anger management emails?

LMAO Absolutely correct. Any of that would have at least added some value instead of just playing into the "Jason aint a brotha' cuz he dare speak truth about the real problems within part of the black community and the hypocrisy of Sharpton and Jesse" crap.

Phobia
04-16-2007, 10:23 AM
I've met Kings. I would say this post doesn't hit anywhere close to home for him.

He's recognizing the same hipocrisy I mentioned last week but he took the time to research and present facts.

I don't know how Whitlock really feels about all this but I do know that he's an opportunist. He's really rolling with this opportunity. I also don't feel there's anything wrong with being an opportunist but I would caution him to tread carefully given what information is readily available on him.

vailpass
04-16-2007, 10:34 AM
I've met Kings. I would say this post doesn't hit anywhere close to home for him.

He's recognizing the same hipocrisy I mentioned last week but he took the time to research and present facts.

I don't know how Whitlock really feels about all this but I do know that he's an opportunist. He's really rolling with this opportunity. I also don't feel there's anything wrong with being an opportunist but I would caution him to tread carefully given what information is readily available on him.

J Whit's job is not to establish credibility; that is the job of self-proclaimed moral leaders like Bighead Sharpton and Jesse.
JWhit's job is to produce a buzz with his stories, to get people to read his stuff, which raises circulation and advertising shares and JWhit's pay check.
Every word Kings or anyone else speaks about JWhit, positive or negative, is music to his ears as it all serves the purpose intended.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 10:37 AM
To be an Uncle Tom indeed.

And let me qualify that...
That's certainly not because he's calling for Black accountability.
It's because he's a hypocrite and perpetuates the self-hatred he claims to despise. It's because he won't tell the real story and only ever gives the "bootstrap" sermon.

He's a clown. With zero credibility and a reputation much to spoiled to be sitting on a soapbox.

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2007, 10:37 AM
Sounds like someone is afraid Jason has....even if it's opportunistically, touched a nerve....and found his calling. Heh.

You go, Jason. Screw these haters who seem to think that although we've tolerated and stood by as pop culture has deteriorated....that somehow means we shouldn't aspire for higher standards.

Fight the good fight, Mr. Whitlock. :clap:

To be an Uncle Tom indeed.

So it's official now....heh. I knew it wouldn't take long.

"You diagree with me, so you must not be one of us...." What a load of crap....ROFL

Micjones
04-16-2007, 10:41 AM
Comedy.

Whitlock hasn't said anything that hasn't already been an ongoing conversation in Black communities longer than he's been alive. Thing is, it isn't newsworthy when we're talking amongst ourselves.

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2007, 10:43 AM
Comedy.

Whitlock hasn't said anything that hasn't already been an ongoing conversation in Black communities longer than he's been alive. Thing is, it isn't newsworthy when we're talking amongst ourselves.
Yeah, there may be an on-going conversation.....but it's always played second fiddle to the whining of entitlement rhetoric, and playing the victim card. Now maybe it will get the attention--and passion it deserves. This is something that we can do to help oursleves--without some government program needed to implement it.

:clap:

Micjones
04-16-2007, 10:44 AM
"You diagree with me, so you must not be one of us...." What a load of crap....ROFL

I went back and qualified my commentary.

And it hasn't nothing to do with the fact that we disagree.
It's about the fact that he's giving America a very lopsided view of what truly ails Black America. And because he's in no position to sit on a soapbox because of his soiled reputation. AND because he has long been cozying up to what he claims to despise.

All because he's an opportunist.

I've followed his career longer than most of you.
I know he's been on this path for quite some time.

He isn't who most of you think he is, but if you're just as slow to buy into this "he's telling the truth to Black Americans" bit well then... So be it.

I KNOW better.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 10:45 AM
Yeah, there may be an on-going conversation.....but it's always played second fiddle to the whining of entitlement rhetoric, and playing the victim card.

I'm sure you know from personal experience.
Because I'm certain you've been privy to such conversations.

No, you just buy into the hype because you're incapable of thinking on your own.

There's startling information available that would change your mind, but you have it set in your mind that Blacks would rather identify themselves as victims.

Despite the mountains of information to the contrary.

So carry on. Darkness awaits.

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2007, 10:46 AM
....It's about the fact that he's giving America a very lopsided view of what truly ails Black America.....

Your own failure to discuss or outline what YOU see as the "real issues"....gives you little crediblity on the topic. You only come off as a hater...

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2007, 10:49 AM
I'm sure you know from personal experience.
Because I'm certain you've been privy to such conversations.

No, you just buy into the hype because you're incapable of thinking on your own.

There's startling information available that would change your mind, but you have it set in your mind that Blacks would rather identify themselves as victims.

Despite the mountains of information to the contrary.

So carry on. Darkness awaits.

Make your argument, for Pete's sake. You keep referring to it....but you refuse to make your points. Rather, you only offer glittering generalities....and ambiguity, which so far has told us nothing about what YOU see as the issues. Some links would be nice.

I assure you, I'll take the time to read them....although I may have to do so later. I'll happily read them, and get back to you on them.

You seem to be all blather, though....so far anyway. Where is the substance?

Micjones
04-16-2007, 10:49 AM
Your own failure to discuss or outline what YOU see as the "real issues"....gives you little crediblity on the topic. You only come off as a hater...

You've got me there Kotter.

The fact that I've chosen not to have such a difficult conversation online, with YOU, means I'm no more credible than Whitlock.

That's about as silly as the rest of your commentary.
I don't owe you anything.

Phobia
04-16-2007, 10:50 AM
To be an Uncle Tom indeed.

And let me qualify that...
That's certainly not because he's calling for Black accountability.
It's because he's a hypocrite and perpetuates the self-hatred he claims to despise. It's because he won't tell the real story and only ever gives the "bootstrap" sermon.

He's a clown. With zero credibility and a reputation much to spoiled to be sitting on a soapbox.

He must have some credibility to be landing spots on national news shows and Oprah. That alone gives him plenty of credibility.

Maybe if he could survive a gunshot wound from a drive-by or something - then he'd have the appropriate credibility.

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2007, 10:52 AM
You've got me there Kotter.

The fact that I've chosen not to have such a difficult conversation online, with YOU, means I'm no more credible than Whitlock.

That's about as silly as the rest of your commentary.
I don't owe you anything.

You don't owe me anything.

However, Jason has expressed his view, in writing.

If you are unable to do the same, it's because of one of two reasons: you are a coward, or you are full of shit.

So, which is it?

Micjones
04-16-2007, 10:52 AM
Make your argument, for Pete's sake. You keep referring to it....but you refuse to make your points.

This is how I know you are truly incapable of digesting the information I have to present. You don't realize that such a conversation doesn't lend itself to this kind of communication.

This isn't about what ails Black America.
This thread is about Jason Whitlock and his irresponsible journalism and the fact that he's playing opportunist.

You seem to be all blather, though....so far anyway. Where is the substance?

And despite your multiple claims that you're genuinely interested your commentary suggests you're as close-minded as some of the other people who frequent this forum.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 11:01 AM
He must have some credibility to be landing spots on national news shows and Oprah.

He's antagonizing highly decorated Black activists.
That's all that's necessary for most of the media outlets he's been featured on as of late. He presents a very different view from that of Sharpton, Jackson and a handful of others of that ilk.

His rants aren't new to our communities.
It's the tone of his commentary that's different.

Again, and many of you will never buy in, but there will always be a place for Jason Whitlock and Bill Cosby. There will always be a soapbox for them to sit or stand on to speak out against their own with sweeping generalizations and racial bias... Why? Because they validate the opinions of certain people who don't look like them.

Don't believe me?
Ask yourself when the last time was that you saw someone on the Today show that presented a broader picture of what ails Black America... I'll wait.

You won't hear that.
Because people don't want to come to terms with that.

They'd rather believe that everything is fair and that there are no practices in play that are effecting Black America. So that's a speech you'll rarely ever hear on the kinds of forums and outlets Whitlock's been on.

Furthermore, Television is about ratings.
And it's a bandwagon type of medium. Oprah and virtually every other show he's been on are just trying to "keep up with the Joneses". That's hardly an establishment or acknowledgment of his credibility.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 11:03 AM
However, Jason has expressed his view, in writing.

And obviously his credibility to stand as a so-called authority on the matter is being called into question. He has a platform, sure... But what does that matter when he has no integrity?

If you are unable to do the same, it's because of one of two reasons: you are a coward, or you are full of shit.

So, which is it?

I'm just uninterested in trying to simplify such a discussion on a message board. But trust me I've been having these conversations on a daily basis. It's a part of my everyday life. Believe that or don't...

Personally, it's of no consequence to me.

Ultra Peanut
04-16-2007, 11:11 AM
GOODBYE SHITTY "NEWS" STORY

Phobia
04-16-2007, 11:12 AM
He's antagonizing highly decorated Black activists.

Highly decorated? How so?

I have a few issues with Whitlock's credibility but the see-saw tilts heavily in his favor (for more reasons than just fat) going up against "highly decorated Black activists" like Sharpton and Jackson.

vailpass
04-16-2007, 11:14 AM
He must have some credibility to be landing spots on national news shows and Oprah. That alone gives him plenty of credibility.

Maybe if he could survive a gunshot wound from a drive-by or something - then he'd have the appropriate credibility.

I recall one of Oprah's big guests was the author who fabricated parts of his childhood and sold them as truth in his best selling novel. Oprah had him on because he was a liar.
I've seen David Duke and the Westboro Baptist Church on the national news.
Credibility a requirement to speak with Oprah or the national media? Not so much.
Beinc a character of interest to the viewing public? Seems like that is the requirement and JWhit has made himself a character of interest.

vailpass
04-16-2007, 11:15 AM
To be an Uncle Tom indeed.

And let me qualify that...
That's certainly not because he's calling for Black accountability
It's because he's a hypocrite and perpetuates the self-hatred he claims to despise. It's because he won't tell the real story and only ever gives the "bootstrap" sermon.

He's a clown. With zero credibility and a reputation much to spoiled to be sitting on a soapbox.

Are you referring to Sharpton, Jesse, or both here? Whichever it is I agree with you wholeheartedly.

ROYC75
04-16-2007, 11:16 AM
I've met Kings. I would say this post doesn't hit anywhere close to home for him.

He's recognizing the same hipocrisy I mentioned last week but he took the time to research and present facts.

I don't know how Whitlock really feels about all this but I do know that he's an opportunist. He's really rolling with this opportunity. I also don't feel there's anything wrong with being an opportunist but I would caution him to tread carefully given what information is readily available on him.

Maybe Jason wants to be the NEW Al or the NEW JESSIE ?
:hmmm:

Phobia
04-16-2007, 11:17 AM
Maybe jason wants to be the NEW Al or NEW JESSIE ?
:hmmm:
I really, really, really doubt that.

ROYC75
04-16-2007, 11:19 AM
I really, really, really doubt that.


I agree, from meeting him once before, it's not his bag, just throwing some sillyness into the mix.

KC Kings
04-16-2007, 11:22 AM
LMAO Absolutely correct. Any of that would have at least added some value instead of just playing into the "Jason aint a brotha' cuz he dare speak truth about the real problems within part of the black community and the hypocrisy of Sharpton and Jesse" crap.

Where did I ever say that Jason wasn't a brother? I simply provided proof that he is hypocrytically pointing out the hypocrasy of others. Do some Google searches on Whitlock. From my post you can tell that I have and it really amazing how widespread this story is. A search for "Jason Whitlock" & "Race" returns 89,000 links, and only 3 of those are about his failed marathon attempts. While I don't know Jason, I know he comes here and has written about this site in the past. I didn't type anything I wouldn't feel comfortable saying directly to him.

Does it matter that he doesn't practice what he preaches as long as he gets a good message across? Maybe not, as long as the evidence will continue to be removed, but in 30 minutes I was able to provide proof that Jason supports, or has supported in the recent past, everything that he is now speaking up against. Do you think that Sharpton's and Jackson's staff, or anybody else won't be able to do the same thing? He's featured on AOL.com, CNN.com, FoxNews.com, The Today Show, Oprah, and hundreds of other media outlets. I am not saying that I think his message is wrong, I just don't understand why a person would try to become a spokeperson for something, when there is so much documented evidence that could easily discredit them.

But you are right, I have a lot more experience with masterbation so maybe I should stick to what I know.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 11:22 AM
Highly decorated? How so?

Regardless of the popular opinions that prevail in some areas of this country they are two of the most long-standing activists in our communities.

I have a few issues with Whitlock's credibility but the see-saw tilts heavily in his favor (for more reasons than just fat) going up against "highly decorated Black activists" like Sharpton and Jackson.[/QUOTE]

I really don't care that he's gone after Sharpton and Jackson.

What I care about is the lopsided view he's providing mainstream America of what ails the Black community.

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2007, 11:22 AM
And obviously his credibility to stand as a so-called authority on the matter is being called into question. He has a platform, sure... But what does that matter when he has no integrity?



I'm just uninterested in trying to simplify such a discussion on a message board. But trust me I've been having these conversations on a daily basis. It's a part of my everyday life. Believe that or don't...

Personally, it's of no consequence to me.

I harbor no ill-will toward you, man. You seem bright, and eloquent. And it's a topic I'm highly intested in. So, personally, I'd love to hear what you have to say. I'm sure others would too.

I'm sure it's of no consequence; it's just a football discussion board, sure. I was just hoping to gain some understanding or insight that you might have to offer.

How about links to folks that echo your thoughts? Is that asking too much?

Micjones
04-16-2007, 11:23 AM
Are you referring to Sharpton, Jesse, or both here? Whichever it is I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I'm not an apologist for either.
You're missing the forest for the trees.

This isn't about his loathing of those two people.

Phobia
04-16-2007, 11:26 AM
What I care about is the lopsided view he's providing mainstream America of what ails the Black community.

That's fair. Obviously the problems go much deeper than rap music, Jesse Jackson, and Al Sharpton.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 11:28 AM
I harbor no ill-will toward you, man. You seem bright, and eloquent. And it's a topic I'm highly intested in. So, personally, I'd love to hear what you have to say. I'm sure others would too.

I'm sure it's of no consequence; it's just a football discussion board, sure. I was just hoping to gain some understanding or insight that you might have to offer.

How about links to folks that echo your thoughts? Is that asking too much?

I haven't freelanced in about 3 years so honestly there isn't much record of my own material online.

I did go briefly into one of the problems in Black communities and that dealt with the issue of education.

I harbor no ill-will toward you either Kotter. Please understand that.
I'm neither a victim or a hater and antagonist of White America.
I want nothing more than for us to be able to dialogue with one another in an honest and open way. That's my sincerest hope.

But we can no longer tow old worn out rhetoric that doesn't get to the heart of the real issues. That... I have no interest in.

If you'd rather believe Black folks just want to play the victim...
You can walk around in that darkness on your own. I'd rather be progressive with like-minded people.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 11:30 AM
That's fair. Obviously the problems go much deeper than rap music, Jesse Jackson, and Al Sharpton.

EXACTLY.

Sharpton and Jackson are fallible and have made many mistakes during their tenure as activists. But honestly, who hasn't?

The reputations of many journalists and politicians who are equally as popular are just as soiled. That isn't the real issue anyway.

Neither is Rap music.
That's as lame as anything I've ever heard.

No... Let's break this down and really begin the dialogue.

Baby Lee
04-16-2007, 11:33 AM
I'm just uninterested in trying to simplify such a discussion on a message board. You are uninterested in trying to simplify your discussion? Who says it needs simplifying. Sounds more like you lack the confidence to express yourself in a coherent an convincing manner.
But trust me I've been having these conversations on a daily basis.
Why did I just get a vision of Coconut Sid and Sweet Dick Willie on the corner?

Phobia
04-16-2007, 11:34 AM
Hopefully Oprah will dig deeper with Jason this afternoon. It's the first time I'll have watched Oprah with interest.

Baby Lee
04-16-2007, 11:35 AM
I want nothing more than for us to be able to dialogue with one another in an honest and open way. That's my sincerest hope.
I thought you were utterly uninterested.

pikesome
04-16-2007, 11:36 AM
What I care about is the lopsided view he's providing mainstream America of what ails the Black community.

Maybe I missed something in all this but I don't think Whitlock is saying that Rap music is all that ails the "Black Community".

Phobia
04-16-2007, 11:40 AM
Maybe I missed something in all this but I don't think Whitlock is saying that Rap music is all that ails the "Black Community".

True. I think everybody would acknowledge that it's a contributing factor to the thug mentality.

pikesome
04-16-2007, 11:42 AM
Maybe it would be best to look at the issue and see if there's a problem than discrediting the messenger.

Even if Whitlock is being a hypocrite I'm don't see how he's wrong. The strength of his position has nothing to do with him as a person. The most popular rap has lyrics that single out a group (women) and lyrically marginalizes them, victimizes them and degrades them while very visibly profiting from this mistreatment. That ought to be the issue not whether Jason Whitlock has been a saint his whole life.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 11:47 AM
You are uninterested in trying to simplify your discussion? Who says it needs simplifying. Sounds more like you lack the confidence to express yourself in a coherent an convincing manner.

I'm sure that's what it is. I haven't already expressed myself coherently.
[/sarcasm]

That's never once been a fear of my own.
I'm far too well-versed, well-researched and well read.
Apart from that. I live it on a daily basis.

I just wonder if I can cut through the folly that some people seem trapped in. And at this point I'm pretty sure where I should plant seeds and who'll be inviting of them.

Certain people in this forum are incorrigible.
Certain people not unlike yourself.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 11:48 AM
I thought you were utterly uninterested.

I'm not just talking about the posters here at CP.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 11:49 AM
True. I think everybody would acknowledge that it's a contributing factor to the thug mentality.

Perhaps, but certainly no more so than images perpetuated by Hollywood, video games and a dozen other forms of media.

Phobia
04-16-2007, 11:52 AM
Perhaps, but certainly no more so than images perpetuated by Hollywood, video games and a dozen other forms of media.I disagree. I think it's a more serious issue. Some of these "stars" are the role-models of black children in their formative years. But Hollywood is certainly not blameless. They put these guys on pedestals as well. It's a bad situation spinning out of control and I don't know that it can ever be completely reined in.

Baby Lee
04-16-2007, 11:55 AM
I'm sure that's what it is. I haven't already expressed myself coherently.
[/sarcasm]

That's never once been a fear of my own.
I'm far too well-versed, well-researched and well read.
Apart from that. I live it on a daily basis.

I just wonder if I can cut through the folly that some people seem trapped in. And at this point I'm pretty sure where I should plant seeds and who'll be inviting of them.

Certain people in this forum are incorrigible.
Certain people not unlike yourself.
So you're unwilling to drop knowledge unless everyone is willing to nod and thank your for the education. Coherence you may have [apparently we'll never know], convincing certainly remains as a concern.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 11:55 AM
Maybe it would be best to look at the issue and see if there's a problem than discrediting the messenger.

Certainly. And the message itself is flawed.
It's not informed by truth.

It's a thumbnail view of what ails Black America.

The most popular rap has lyrics that single out a group (women) and lyrically marginalizes them, victimizes them and degrades them while very visibly profiting from this mistreatment.

And I would ask you to take a moment to see exactly the dispensation of that brand of Rap music. That's who is genuinely profiting from such.

Furthermore, that kind of misogyny-charged lyricism doesn't represent all of Rap music.

And we could lob similar objections at Hollywood, but I haven't heard those charges in the general discourse.

That ought to be the issue not whether Jason Whitlock has been a saint his whole life.

None of us can lay a claim to perfection, but certainly he should have a bit more integrity on the issues in question. That's where the hypocrisy lies. And perhaps we should separate the message from the messenger, but when the messenger isn't credible...Perhaps...the message isn't either?

Micjones
04-16-2007, 11:57 AM
I disagree. I think it's a more serious issue.

Fair enough, but when with the executives (who 99% of the time don't resemble the rappers in question) who've made such music fashionable be held accountable?

Micjones
04-16-2007, 12:01 PM
So you're unwilling to drop knowledge unless everyone is willing to nod and thank your for the education.

No, I'm simply unwilling to try to have such an immense discussion on this site.

You have no idea that I've both planned and formulated a summit on these very issues for the first weekend in May.

This is a conversation you have face-to-face where there is context and body language available to all parties involved.

It's too big a discussion to have in this forum.
Just take me at my word...

Coherence you may have [apparently we'll never know], convincing certainly remains as a concern.

Dumber people have convinced some of you so...

Baby Lee
04-16-2007, 12:03 PM
It's too big a discussion to have in this forum.
Just take me at my word...
I'll take you at your word that you have views. The validity of those views remain suspect until you voice them.
Dumber people have convinced some of you so...
You have no idea what I am or am not convinced of, or anything about what I think, because you refuse to deign us with a discussion, so. . .

Micjones
04-16-2007, 12:05 PM
So seeing how I'm so unconvincing and incapable of presenting my views coherently...

Why do you continue to have this exchange?

Because you know better...

Bugeater
04-16-2007, 12:08 PM
No, I'm simply unwilling to try to have such an immense discussion on this site.
But you'll willingly drop 20 posts in a thread trying to avoid the discussion. Makes sense to me. :rolleyes:

Phobia
04-16-2007, 12:08 PM
Fair enough, but when with the executives (who 99% of the time don't resemble the rappers in question) who've made such music fashionable be held accountable?

99% of the time? Seriously? It's my understanding that many of these big rappers have their own labels and control their own music. Am I mistaken?

Baby Lee
04-16-2007, 12:10 PM
So seeing how I'm so unconvincing and incapable of presenting my views coherently...

Why are you continue to have this exchange?

Because you know better...
As it stands right now, your position is 'Whitlock has it wrong and I have the right answers, trust me.'
Everyone on here sees that and says 'whatever.'
You already are at zero position regarding your argument because you refuse to voice it.
What would I have to gain in engaging you other than to get a discussion going?
I'm just itching to get schooled by some ephemeral argument heretofore unenounced?

Baby Lee
04-16-2007, 12:11 PM
99% of the time? Seriously? It's my understanding that many of these big rappers have their own labels and control their own music. Am I mistaken?
Pentavorate.

FAX
04-16-2007, 12:12 PM
Mr. Baby Lee by three lengths.

Rounding the 1/16th pole.

FAX

Micjones
04-16-2007, 12:14 PM
99% of the time? Seriously? It's my understanding that many of these big rappers have their own labels and control their own music. Am I mistaken?

Yes.

Most of the labels founded by Rap acts are merely imprints and have no real power. They are distributed and managed by larger conglomerates.

NewChief
04-16-2007, 12:15 PM
99% of the time? Seriously? It's my understanding that many of these big rappers have their own labels and control their own music. Am I mistaken?

I could be wrong, but I think most of the labels you're talking about (probably labels like Death Row) are usually subsidiaries of a larger corporation. They aren't independent labels (as in artist owned) in the traditional sense of the word.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 12:16 PM
But you'll willingly drop 20 posts in a thread trying to avoid the discussion. Makes sense to me. :rolleyes:

You're helping my argument here ACTB.

The discussion on what ails Black America cannot be compartmentalized to fit into 20 posts.

KC Kings
04-16-2007, 12:16 PM
Perhaps, but certainly no more so than images perpetuated by Hollywood, video games and a dozen other forms of media.

True, but there is more than one kind of thug mentality. Most of the time people hit on the thug mentality where young kids think that it is cool to smoke/sell drugs, be in a gang, etc... The other thug mentality is where white America sees gangsta rap, and starts to have the mentality that all blacks are thugs. I agree that Hollywood has a lot to with that, but are most trends started with music rather than movies?

This is no where near a perfect world, but it is getting much better. If you are black, you can assume that something is prejudice but most of the time it doesn't come out as blatant racism. You don't get the "behind the scenes" view of racism and prejudice that you get when you are in an all white setting. I am a middle class guy that lives in a middle class white neighborhood. I have a family of rednecks. I work in a white collar corporate environment. I get to see a variety of behind the scenes racism and prejudice that is most of the time hidden from the general public. I can say for certain, that with each new generation, prejudice and racism is getting better (going away). You may not be able blame everything on rap and hip-hop, but today's rap message certainly isn't making things any better.

pikesome
04-16-2007, 12:19 PM
Certainly. And the message itself is flawed.
It's not informed by truth.

It's a thumbnail view of what ails Black America.

In what way is it a flawed message? The songs don't exist? They're being taken out of context? It's a small percent of rap? A small percent of Blacks listening? I have difficulty identifying where the message is wrong or even off a bit. While many other issues are out there too, this one seems to be fairly sound.

And I would ask you to take a moment to see exactly the dispensation of that brand of Rap music. That's who is genuinely profiting from such.


Does it matter who is profiting? Jay-Z, Puff Daddy, Suge Knight have all profited handsomely. What is their excuse for this? The getting out of the ghetto excuse isn't good enough here either.

Furthermore, that kind of misogyny-charged lyricism doesn't represent all of Rap music.

I don't think anyone is saying it is. The complaint is that this kind of rap does exist with very little real complaint from Sharpton or Jackson or the "Black Community".

And we could lob similar objections at Hollywood, but I haven't heard those charges in the general discourse.

Even at its worse, mainstream Hollywood isn't as bad as what makes it on to the Billboard charts.



None of us can lay a claim to perfection, but certainly he should have a bit more integrity on the issues in question. That's where the hypocrisy lies. And perhaps we should separate the message from the messenger, but when the messenger isn't credible...Perhaps...the message isn't either?

This is the argument taken by those with no leg to stand on. It shouldn't matter if Mother Theresa or Pol Pot made these comments. Listen and weigh it for yourself. I can't think of one person who's words should be taken at face value just because they said them.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 12:20 PM
As it stands right now, your position is 'Whitlock has it wrong and I have the right answers, trust me.'
Everyone on here sees that and says 'whatever.'

On the contrary...
You're not obligated to believe that I'm qualified. Honestly, that's my last concern. But certainly you could take a moment to acclimate yourself to the truth.

You already are at zero position regarding your argument because you refuse to voice it.
What would I have to gain in engaging you other than to get a discussion going?
I'm just itching to get schooled by some ephemeral argument heretofore unenounced?

This has nothing at all to do with my own abilities, but rather with truth.
What effort have you exhausted in wisening up about the issues in question?

Phobia
04-16-2007, 12:21 PM
Yes.

Most of the labels founded by Rap acts are merely imprints and have no real power. They are distributed and managed by larger conglomerates.
So who do you hold accountable? The white guy living large because he's a VP at a giant record label or somebody else? I think that's the problem here - a lack of accountability.

pikesome
04-16-2007, 12:25 PM
Yes.

Most of the labels founded by Rap acts are merely imprints and have no real power. They are distributed and managed by larger conglomerates.

They are forced to make hateful, violent music? Even if your statement applies in full to every rap imprint it doesn't seem to be a good excuse.

Whitlock's point, I think, isn't about rap artists so much as it's about the fact that people put up with this crap from part of the population while coming down like a ton of bricks on other parts.

On edit:

After looking a bit it would seem that Death Row, at least, got it's start controlled entirely by Blacks, not one white person involved. And under the kind of circumstances that gives Rap an even worse name.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 12:30 PM
True, but there is more than one kind of thug mentality. Most of the time people hit on the thug mentality where young kids think that it is cool to smoke/sell drugs, be in a gang, etc... The other thug mentality is where white America sees gangsta rap, and starts to have the mentality that all blacks are thugs. I agree that Hollywood has a lot to with that, but are most trends started with music rather than movies?

I think blame can be assigned to television, to film, to music and more importantly to American culture.

Women in this country have been commodified longer than any of us have been around.
Much longer than Rap has existed.

This is no where near a perfect world, but it is getting much better. If you are black, you can assume that something is prejudice but most of the time it doesn't come out as blatant racism.

Indeed.

I can say for certain, that with each new generation, prejudice and racism is getting better (going away). You may not be able blame everything on rap and hip-hop, but today's rap message certainly isn't making things any better.

The messages in the majority of mainstream Rap music certainly, but again not even that is a full representation of the music. I'm a Rap artist myself and my music couldn't be further from what can be heard on Corporate Radio. Ask yourself why that is...

Because Corporate America refuses to invest itself in that which does not objectify women, glorify violence and perpetuate negative imagery. And that's across the board. That goes much deeper than music.

Some people make the objectification of women out to be an exclusive trademark of the Rap genre. That's rather disingenuous. What we should be looking at is the decay of our moral fabric as a whole. Superficiality in our culture (overall) is much more responsible than any one factor (Rap music).

I hate to break it to you, but the negative imagery in any form of music is really just a window into the consensus of American culture and the views therein.

NewChief
04-16-2007, 12:32 PM
I love the chicken and the egg debate of marketing. Do people market hateful, violent, and misogynistic rap because it sells, or does it sell because people market it?

If kids wanted to buy positive rap that is all about doing good and respecting women, I guarantee a label would pick it up.

So what causes kids to want to buy the crap they do? Then you go back to the fact that they want to buy it because it's marketed to them as cool. It's an endlessly circular thing without a clear point of origin.

Bugeater
04-16-2007, 12:32 PM
You're helping my argument here ACTB.

The discussion on what ails Black America cannot be compartmentalized to fit into 20 posts.
OK, let me get this straight. It's such a huge complicated problem that we shouldn't even try to discuss it. Fine, I'll ignore it then. It doesn't affect me anyway.

Phobia
04-16-2007, 12:33 PM
I'm a Rap artist myself and my music couldn't be further from what can be heard on Corporate Radio. Ask yourself why that is...
Because you have no skillz? You've never been shot?

You aren't dating a supermodel?

Baby Lee
04-16-2007, 12:35 PM
Because Corporate America refuses to invest itself in that which does not objectify women, glorify violence and perpetuate negative imagery. And that's across the board. That goes much deeper than music.
Yeah, Corrine Bailey Raye is way thugged out.

NewChief
04-16-2007, 12:36 PM
Yeah, Corrine Bailey Raye is way thugged out.

She'll probably be coming out with a grill and corn rows next tour ala Erykah.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 12:39 PM
In what way is it a flawed message?

Because it only takes thought of a couple of different factors.

The songs don't exist?

Sure they do.
There are also songs that are much more substantive in form.
Based on that information are you prepared to exonerate the artform?

I have difficulty identifying where the message is wrong or even off a bit. While many other issues are out there too, this one seems to be fairly sound.

Sure it's difficult.
Because somewhere you've reconciled the fact that Blacks haven't been critical themselves of such imagery. And that labels and those who are truly profiting from these images aren't responsible for the dispensation of these images. And that the objectification of women is somehow a trademark of Rap music absent from the rest of our other culture.

I understand.

Does it matter who is profiting? Jay-Z, Puff Daddy, Suge Knight have all profited handsomely.

Sure they have, but nothing at all like those behind them.

I don't think anyone is saying it is. The complaint is that this kind of rap does exist with very little real complaint from Sharpton or Jackson or the "Black Community".

And this, sir, is where your commentary and lack of research is failing you. I have said time without number that Sharpton and Jackson have spoken out against negative imagery in Rap music for more than a decade. You simply haven't done your homework. Sharpton spoke to the media and to the public one week prior (to the Imus incident) in opposition of a recent event involving a particular Rap artist.

Here's the irony in all of this. That was nowhere to be found on mainstream news outlets... Why? Because it isn't newsworthy.

Even at its worse, mainstream Hollywood isn't as bad as what makes it on to the Billboard charts.

You're kidding, right?

This is the argument taken by those with no leg to stand on. It shouldn't matter if Mother Theresa or Pol Pot made these comments. Listen and weigh it for yourself. I can't think of one person who's words should be taken at face value just because they said them.

I've taken everything Whitlock said into consideration, but much of the information necessary to form an effective evaluation isn't available to his readership. That's where the problem lies. Because then one has to wonder why that information isn't available... And that, sir, goes back to credibility.

KC Kings
04-16-2007, 12:42 PM
I hate to break it to you, but the negative imagery in any form of music is really just a window into the consensus of American culture and the views therein.

Do you mean a window into the consensus of the intended listener? The general consensus of America is that Bush is not affective and that we should no longer be in Iraq. You would not want to make music about this intended for the Country and Western audience. Just ask the Dixie Chicks.

Would you agree that country singers sing about drinking, fighting, patriotism, church and blue collar/farm life because that is the general consensus of the intended audience of what country life is?

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2007, 12:45 PM
On the contrary...
You're not obligated to believe that I'm qualified. Honestly, that's my last concern. But certainly you could take a moment to acclimate yourself to the truth. ...

....This has nothing at all to do with my own abilities, but rather with truth...

What conference in May, are you talking about? Seriously. Could any of us attend?

I know communicating this way has limitations, but couldn't we try?

Or, how about some links to websites which share the your perspective? Surely that's not asking a lot....

If it is, give me a few hints as to the names of people....or key terms or words....I can use in a Google search. Heck, THAT should be easy enough...I'd think. There would be too much to wade through efficiently, if I just type "urban sociological issues perpetuating poverty and racism" or some such shot-in-the-dark.

:shrug:


Help me out here, man. :hmmm:

cdcox
04-16-2007, 12:46 PM
Fair enough, but when with the executives (who 99% of the time don't resemble the rappers in question) who've made such music fashionable be held accountable?

You way overestimate the level of influence that an executive can have on the market, in any field.

If the artists don't make the music, the execs can't push it.

If people don't buy it, the execs won't promote it.

The market is everything and can't be controlled. The execs just sit back and watch the direction it is going and then profit from it, no matter which way it goes.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 12:46 PM
Yeah, Corrine Bailey Raye is way thugged out.

Poor misguided soul.

Rae is signed to EMI.
That label houses everything from Yellowcard, to Radiohead, to Smokie Norful. There's room on that label for every form of music imaginable.

BUT...
They are home to only about 7 Rap acts of note.
And guess what? They all endorse the themes we've been discussing...

Micjones
04-16-2007, 12:47 PM
So who do you hold accountable? The white guy living large because he's a VP at a giant record label or somebody else? I think that's the problem here - a lack of accountability.

I hold everyone involved accountable.

Phobia
04-16-2007, 12:49 PM
I believe that even the biggest of Black apologists would admit that the thug image is a bigger problem within the Black community than it is in any other segment of the population.

The "artists" are mostly Black, I presume.

But it's everybody else's fault - including white executives within the record companies.

Why are the fingers being pointed everywhere but at Black folks, Mr. Micjones?

I'm willing to own the problem even though I'm a white dude. I'm willing to do everything in my power (which isn't significant) to help in this situation. I'm even willing to point the finger at the white executives at the record label. But I'm also pointing the finger at the Black community as well. They've embraced that thug lifestyle. They support it. They seem to like it. It's a problem for ALL of us but where are the answers? I don't know what the answers are, but I'm pretty sure pointing the finger at everybody else isn't the answer.

Baby Lee
04-16-2007, 12:49 PM
Poor misguided soul.

Rae is signed to EMI.
That label houses everything from Yellowcard, to Radiohead, to Smokie Norful. There's room on that label for every form of music imaginable.

BUT...
They are home to only about 7 Rap acts of note.
And guess what? They all endorse the themes we've been discussing...
OIC, you meant to say 'Corporate America, except EMI.'

What sinister reason do the power mongers at this venerable institution have for not signing you to a phat K?

For that matter, which white overlord is behind the fashion trend of prison garb?

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2007, 12:50 PM
Micjones.....come on man, a couple of web sites. You've piqued my interest here.

Throw me a bone, man. :shrug:

Bugeater
04-16-2007, 12:51 PM
What conference in May, are you talking about? Seriously. Could any of us attend?

I know communicating this way has limitations, but couldn't we try?

Or, how about some links to websites which share the your perspective? Surely that's not asking a lot....

If it is, give me a few hints as to the names of people....or key terms or words....I can use in a Google search. Heck, THAT should be easy enough...I'd think. There would be too much to wade through efficiently, if I just type "urban sociological issues perpetuating poverty and racism" or some such shot-in-the-dark.

:shrug:


Help me out here, man. :hmmm:
The discussion on what ails Black America cannot be compartmentalized to fit into the internet. /Micjones

Deberg_1990
04-16-2007, 12:51 PM
They've embraced that thug lifestyle. They support it. They seem to like it.


They have embraced it because of simple economics. It has made many many young black men alot of $$$$$$.

Its been an easy way for alot of these guys to overcome poverty.

Phobia
04-16-2007, 12:53 PM
I hold everyone involved accountable.

I'm not seeing that in your responses here. Sorry.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 12:55 PM
They are forced to make hateful, violent music?

They are if they're under contract, absolutely,

Whitlock's point, I think, isn't about rap artists so much as it's about the fact that people put up with this crap from part of the population while coming down like a ton of bricks on other parts.

And I would ask you exactly how you know what issues are being discussed in Black communities? I don't know what's being bandied in your home...

I can tell you that it's been an ongoing conversation for the 30 plus years of Rap's existence. I know that from personal experience.

After looking a bit it would seem that Death Row, at least, got it's start controlled entirely by Blacks, not one white person involved. And under the kind of circumstances that gives Rap an even worse name.

*Sigh*

You simply aren't trying here...

Suge Knight founded the label, but they were distributed by its parent company Interscope. Which Knight had no hand in.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 12:57 PM
I'm not seeing that in your responses here. Sorry.

I suppose that's your ballgame then.

If you haven't been a privy to it then it must not exist.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 01:01 PM
If kids wanted to buy positive rap that is all about doing good and respecting women, I guarantee a label would pick it up.

Declining sales are proof that audiences are tired of the music that's being dispensed by Corporate Radio. Audiences have long been interested in more substantive acts. They simply aren't being sponsored by the conglomerates. Because their message isn't conducive to overall media which bares out the negative imagery.

There can be no market for more enlightening Rap music when the culture itself is rife with misogyny. Hello?

Micjones
04-16-2007, 01:03 PM
OK, let me get this straight. It's such a huge complicated problem that we shouldn't even try to discuss it. Fine, I'll ignore it then. It doesn't affect me anyway.

It's too complicated for a message board...
Pay attention.

It's an ongoing conversation for me. One I have everyday with people who are interested in growth and in change.

What good would I do myself or any of you to create what would certainly become a 50-page thread with certain people unwilling to see things any differently?

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2007, 01:03 PM
Micjones.....come on man, a couple of web sites. You've piqued my interest here.

Throw me a bone, man. :shrug:Come on, Micjones..... help a cracka brutha out, man!!! :cuss:

-- Love, Tom Willis



Well we're movin on up,
To the east side.
To a deluxe apartment in the sky.
Movin on up
To the east side.
We finally got a piece of the pie.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 01:04 PM
Kotter, did you miss the nugget I gave you in another thread that addressed the resegregation of the public school system?

There's something for you to chew on...

I mean... Dude... Think about it...
This thread itself (which began on the back of a Whitlock rebuttal piece) is already 7 pages long. And that's as specific as a topic can get...

Do you honestly believe we can hash this all out on CP?

Phobia
04-16-2007, 01:05 PM
I suppose that's your ballgame then.

If you haven't been a privy to it then it must not exist.

I can only comment on what I see and know. You seem to be making excuses for Blacks and fingerpointing whitey - to me. Maybe that's my issue but I really don't think so. I try to be fair (unless I'm being sarcastic) in all of my commentary. I think I'm being fair.

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2007, 01:06 PM
Kotter, did you miss the nugget I gave you in another thread that addressed the resegregation of the public school system?

There's something for you to chew on...

Sorry, I must have missed it...or overlooked it. Come again? Or can you get me to the thread? :hmmm:

Micjones
04-16-2007, 01:07 PM
I can only comment on what I see and know. You seem to be making excuses for Blacks and fingerpointing whitey - to me.

That's a gross oversimplification of all I've said, but you're convinced of that so unfortunately there's nothing I can do to change your mind.

Maybe that's my issue but I really don't think so.

I think it is. And I would offer our first exchange for your consideration...

Bugeater
04-16-2007, 01:08 PM
It's too complicated for a message board...
Pay attention.

It's an ongoing conversation for me. One I have everyday with people who are interested in growth and in change.

What good would I do myself or any of you to create what would certainly become a 50-page thread with certain people unwilling to see things any differently?
Perhaps you need to pay attention, Kotter was asking you for an alternative to having it on the board. And what makes you think people here aren't interested in growth and change? You've been here all of two months, what do you know about the people here? But alas, you're right, it's a hopeless battle. No sense in fighting it if everyone isn't going to see things you're way.

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2007, 01:08 PM
...Do you honestly believe we can hash this all out on CP?

No, we can't hash ALL of it out here.

I'd love to have some reading material....names, websites, or links to material so I can understand what you are alluding to....I'm the type that WILL wade through the material conscientiously too. :hmmm:

OnTheWarpath15
04-16-2007, 01:09 PM
What good would I do myself or any of you to create what would certainly become a 50-page thread with certain people unwilling to see things any differently?

Nice cop out.

And you seem to have no problem taking threads to the 100+ post mark just by running around in circles. What's a few more pages to actually get a straight answer from you?

Kotter, you're never gonna get an answer from this guy.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 01:10 PM
Sorry, I must have missed it...or overlooked it. Come again? Or can you get me to the thread? :hmmm:

Umm...

I think it might've been the thread on Whitlock's piece.
Don't hold me to that though. I'm not certain.

OnTheWarpath15
04-16-2007, 01:11 PM
Perhaps you need to pay attention, Kotter was asking you for an alternative to having it on the board. And what makes you think people here aren't interested in growth and change? You've been here all of two months, what do you know about the people here? But alas, you're right, it's a hopeless battle. No sense in fighting it if everyone isn't going to see things you're way.

And there's the bottom line.

Baby Lee
04-16-2007, 01:11 PM
What good would I do myself or any of you to create what would certainly become a 50-page thread with certain people unwilling to see things any differently?
I have a dream . . . errr, I would have a dream if it weren't so difficult to put into words, and if I thought these trifling fools would listen.

pikesome
04-16-2007, 01:11 PM
Because it only takes thought of a couple of different factors.
Sure they do.
There are also songs that are much more substantive in form.
Based on that information are you prepared to exonerate the artform?


There aren't "other factors" to account for. The lyrics, culture and attitude in the subset of rap songs being mentioned is wrong. End of story. No amount of arguing or reasoning or excusing will make it otherwise. You can't treat women like sexual playthings, animals or possessions.

Sure it's difficult.
Because somewhere you've reconciled the fact that Blacks haven't been critical themselves of such imagery. And that labels and those who are truly profiting from these images aren't responsible for the dispensation of these images. And that the objectification of women is somehow a trademark of Rap music absent from the rest of our other culture.

I understand.

Don't go thinking you know my mind here. I know many who have been critical. My boss in the Navy was a big Al Green era fan, he used to have "discussions" with some of the other blacks in my office because he didn't like Tupac. The albums still sell however. Blacks still buy them. I'll bet the Rutgers BBall team has the kind of albums on discussion. Do they have any right to be offended if they subsidize that kind of treatment of there own free will? These are the topics up for discussion.

To the bold part: Why then are these people and their message tolerated? If it doesn't accurately portray black culture it probably ought to be marginalized.


Sure they have, but nothing at all like those behind them.


So SS prison guards don't deserve punishment because their bosses "made" them? This argument has been use many times in many other contexts, it doesn't hold up well.


And this, sir, is where your commentary and lack of research is failing you. I have said time without number that Sharpton and Jackson have spoken out against negative imagery in Rap music for more than a decade. You simply haven't done your homework. Sharpton spoke to the media and to the public one week prior (to the Imus incident) in opposition of a recent event involving a particular Rap artist.

Here's the irony in all of this. That was nowhere to be found on mainstream news outlets... Why? Because it isn't newsworthy.


Quit putting thoughts under my name. I never said Sharpton or Jackson are wholly guilty of Whitlock's claims, just that they can't be dismissed because Jason hasn't been a saint himself. There's no "homework" to do, the offending rap exists, it's message is wrong, it hasn't gone away. It's not really important who has or hasn't tried to fix it in the past, fix it now. And this applies to others besides Al and Jesse.

Jason seems to feel that Al and Jesse aren't getting it done and should let someone else lead. Seems like a decent position to me. If you aren't happy with the leadership change it.





You're kidding, right?

Not at all. Would you provide an example that's worse than "Back That Ass Up" lyrics?


I've taken everything Whitlock said into consideration, but much of the information necessary to form an effective evaluation isn't available to his readership. That's where the problem lies. Because then one has to wonder why that information isn't available... And that, sir, goes back to credibility.

What are we missing? You don't make songs about treating women like sexual possessions and you don't buy albums with those songs on them. Did I miss something?

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2007, 01:12 PM
Kotter, did you miss the nugget I gave you in another thread that addressed the resegregation of the public school system?

There's something for you to chew on...

I mean... Dude... Think about it...
This thread itself (which began on the back of a Whitlock rebuttal piece) is already 7 pages long. And that's as specific as a topic can get...

Do you honestly believe we can hash this all out on CP?
Do the following links meet with your approval then; I mean, I want them to be representative of the paradigm you bring to the table....

http://www.civilrightsproject.harvard.edu/research/deseg/reseg_schools02.php

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/aug1999/rese-a23.shtml

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Oct05/Knopp1015.htm

http://www.abanet.org/irr/hr/Fall05/resegregation.html

If they are fair, I'll start there; what do you think?

Micjones
04-16-2007, 01:13 PM
Perhaps you need to pay attention, Kotter was asking you for an alternative to having it on the board.

Do some research. Talk amongst yourselves.
Organize a summit within your own communities (I have).
Open your mind.

I can't figure it all out FOR YOU.

And what makes you think people here aren't interested in growth and change?

I believe some people are. And I believe some are not.

But alas, you're right, it's a hopeless battle. No sense in fighting it if everyone isn't going to see things you're way.

My way? How about seeing it truth's way?

Phobia
04-16-2007, 01:13 PM
That's a gross oversimplification of all I've said, but you're convinced of that so unfortunately there's nothing I can do to change your mind.

I have one of the most open minds here. Name some black folks who are culpable for the current state of affairs. That would certainly change my mind. I'm not a complicated person.

KC Kings
04-16-2007, 01:13 PM
I believe that even the biggest of Black apologists would admit that the thug image is a bigger problem within the Black community than it is in any other segment of the population.

The "artists" are mostly Black, I presume.

But it's everybody else's fault - including white executives within the record companies.

Why are the fingers being pointed everywhere but at Black folks, Mr. Micjones?

I'm willing to own the problem even though I'm a white dude. I'm willing to do everything in my power (which isn't significant) to help in this situation. I'm even willing to point the finger at the white executives at the record label. But I'm also pointing the finger at the Black community as well. They've embraced that thug lifestyle. They support it. They seem to like it. It's a problem for ALL of us but where are the answers? I don't know what the answers are, but I'm pretty sure pointing the finger at everybody else isn't the answer.

I'm with you on that one. Sure white producers are making all the money and white kids are buying 85% of the rap albums, but I read the paper every day and watch the news. In all of the recent gang violence I haven't seen a single white kid killed in gang related shooting. I am not saying that it doesn't happen, but you can't blame a producer in Hollywood for making thug gangsters shoot each other in Kansas City, unless they thug gangsters have no free will or the ability to make their own decisions.

stumppy
04-16-2007, 01:14 PM
It's too complicated for a message board...


What good would I do myself or any of you to create what would certainly become a 50-page thread with certain people unwilling to see things any differently?

If EVERYONE doesn't see things the way you do then it's not worth your time or effort ?



So many posts without saying anything.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 01:15 PM
Do the following links meet with your approval then; I mean, I want them to be representative of the paradigm you bring to the table....

http://www.civilrightsproject.harvard.edu/research/deseg/reseg_schools02.php

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/aug1999/rese-a23.shtml

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Oct05/Knopp1015.htm

http://www.abanet.org/irr/hr/Fall05/resegregation.html

If they are fair, I'll start there; what do you think?

Please excuse me Kotter, but that's an awful lot of information for me to process at one time. I skimmed through each one and I think that's a good place to start.

Jon Kozol's an authority on the issue.
If you can find his book, Shame of the Nation: The Restoration of Apartheid Schooling in America, you're golden...

Micjones
04-16-2007, 01:18 PM
Name some black folks who are culpable for the current state of affairs.

There simply isn't enough room to begin assigning blame.
I would hope that you've looked deeply enough into my commentary to know that I hold my own responsible for what some of them have become.

Again, I have no problem with accountability.
I've said that...Time and again.

That part of Whitlock's commentary I'm okay with...
It's when you conveniently obscure the other factors...

Bugeater
04-16-2007, 01:18 PM
And there's the bottom line.
Thanks for highlighting my misuse of "you're".:cuss:

pikesome
04-16-2007, 01:19 PM
They are if they're under contract, absolutely,


Now you're getting stupid. We don't have indentured servitude here any more, if the artists don't want to then no one can make them.


And I would ask you exactly how you know what issues are being discussed in Black communities? I don't know what's being bandied in your home...

I can tell you that it's been an ongoing conversation for the 30 plus years of Rap's existence. I know that from personal experience.


Re read my post, it says nothing about what Blacks are talking about, only what I think Whitlock was trying to say. I know you have a preconceived opinion here but not everyone else here does.


*Sigh*

You simply aren't trying here...

Suge Knight founded the label, but they were distributed by its parent company Interscope. Which Knight had no hand in.

Ok, you're being insultingly dense here. Whitey held a gun to his head, forcing him to start this company and set it on its way? It was only bought after it became profitable and it didn't change its core music at that point. The white man didn't make Death Row, just attempted to profit from what they were doing.

Phobia
04-16-2007, 01:20 PM
There simply isn't enough room to begin assigning blame.
I would hope that you've looked deeply enough into my commentary to know that I hold my own responsible for what some of them have become.

Again, I have no problem with accountability.
I've said that...Time and again.

That part of Whitlock's commentary I'm okay with...
It's when you conveniently obscure the other factors...

Okay, name one of the worst please. Stage name is fine with me.

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2007, 01:20 PM
Please excuse me Kotter, but that's an awful lot of information for me to process at one time. I skimmed through each one and I think that's a good place to start.

Jon Kozol's an authority on the issue.
If you can find his book, Shame of the Nation: The Restoration of Apartheid Schooling in America, you're golden...
Ah, yes....I'm familiar with Kozol. I remember Savage Inequalities from grad school....I'll have to revisit his stuff and get back to this later.

Thanks. :thumb:

Micjones
04-16-2007, 01:20 PM
I'm with you on that one. Sure white producers are making all the money and white kids are buying 85% of the rap albums, but I read the paper every day and watch the news. In all of the recent gang violence I haven't seen a single white kid killed in gang related shooting. I am not saying that it doesn't happen, but you can't blame a producer in Hollywood for making thug gangsters shoot each other in Kansas City, unless they thug gangsters have no free will or the ability to make their own decisions.

No you can't. And that's where personal responsibility and the other factors come in.

I cannot in good faith expect you to believe that the Black community cannot be held accountable for their own actions. I would not.

OnTheWarpath15
04-16-2007, 01:21 PM
Thanks for highlighting my misuse of "you're".:cuss:


Now you're really gonna be pissed:

I actually thought for just a second about changing it......

*ducks*

Micjones
04-16-2007, 01:21 PM
I'd love to have some reading material....names, websites, or links to material so I can understand what you are alluding to....I'm the type that WILL wade through the material conscientiously too. :hmmm:

Find Jon Kozol's book... That's a great place to start on the first issue I've brought to the table.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 01:23 PM
Nice cop out.

If you say so.

And you seem to have no problem taking threads to the 100+ post mark just by running around in circles. What's a few more pages to actually get a straight answer from you?

Because certainly 100 posts is enough to begin scratching the surface of such a complex issue... [/sarcasm]

Have YOU anything to offer to the general discourse?

Kotter, you're never gonna get an answer from this guy.

He's already gotten one. More than one in fact.
So much for accuracy though...

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2007, 01:24 PM
As I recall, one of Kozol's prescriptions for solving the problems of urban schools....is fixing de facto segregation. Is that right?

If so, do you know what he proposes to do, to achieve that? That is, "fix" de facto segregation? (It's a serious question; I don't know....I thought you might.)

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2007, 01:26 PM
Find Jon Kozol's book... That's a great place to start on the first issue I've brought to the table.

Fair enough; based on my previous experience with Kozol...I'll move it to the front of my reading list. Thanks.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 01:28 PM
Kozol is, in fact, calling for an end to de facto segregation. He believes it will take another civil rights movement to enact.

OnTheWarpath15
04-16-2007, 01:38 PM
If you say so.



Because certainly 100 posts is enough to begin scratching the surface of such a complex issue... [/sarcasm]

Have YOU anything to offer to the general discourse?



He's already gotten one. More than one in fact.
So much for accuracy though...


So instead of putting those posts to good use, you'd rather talk in circles and waste them. Last I checked, there were no limits on thread length or age

Please, enlighten us.

You can take the rest of the year, if you'd like. I'm sure some of us would appreciate a straight answer, regardless of the time it takes to get it......

Micjones
04-16-2007, 01:42 PM
So instead of putting those posts to good use, you'd rather talk in circles and waste them. Last I checked, there were no limits on thread length or age

I suppose you're missing the progress I'm making with Kotter?
There's a freeflow of ideas with the two of us because he's open minded enough to know the limitations of this kind of exchange.

You can take the rest of the year, if you'd like. I'm sure some of us would appreciate a straight answer, regardless of the time it takes to get it......

I began with the resegregation of the public school system.
That's one problem that's ailing Black communities...

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2007, 01:44 PM
Kozol is, in fact, calling for an end to de facto segregation. He believes it will take another civil rights movement to enact.So, he's calling for what...."forced" integration in housing patterns? Along the lines of forced busing? :spock:

I AM going to have to look for the book. :hmmm:

I'm not trying to be provocative here, but that's pretty radical.

OnTheWarpath15
04-16-2007, 01:53 PM
I suppose you're missing the progress I'm making with Kotter?
There's a freeflow of ideas with the two of us because he's open minded enough to know the limitations of this kind of exchange.



I began with the resegregation of the public school system.
That's one problem that's ailing Black communities...

Nope. Not missing it. Actually enjoying it. Much better than ignoring him.

You guys have a good flow going now. I just wish you had been open to the idea of sharing last week, instead of wasting time talking in circles.

I'm looking forward to more progress being made, and am looking forward to what you have to say about the issues.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 02:03 PM
I've exchanged a lot of information that's been helpful to the overall discourse.

I haven't been talking in circles.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 02:04 PM
So, he's calling for what...."forced" integration in housing patterns? Along the lines of forced busing? :spock:

Forced is much too strong a word.

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2007, 02:06 PM
Forced is much too strong a word.

What would be a better way to describe it? :shrug:

Micjones
04-16-2007, 02:14 PM
I think he just wants sound policy that encourages integration (ie, the softening and overall removal of grandfathered restrictive covenants, fair housing practices, etc.).

GoHuge
04-16-2007, 02:21 PM
Man that seems like alot of work.

Whitlock has got himself on the big stage now :)

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2007, 02:27 PM
I think he just wants sound policy that encourages integration (ie, the softening and overall removal of grandfathered restrictive covenants, fair housing practices, etc.).
Unfortunately, the problems are really rooted much more deeply in socio-economic issues....than in race issues, IMHO. It's just hard to separate the two issues, because of the disproportionate percentages of impoverished blacks.

IIRC, even Kozol (in his earlier work anyway) seems to have difficulty in blurring of socioeconomic versus race issues--he seems to lump groups together, when it suits his purpose....and separates them, when it suits his purpose. That was one of the criticisms I had of his earlier work. Perhaps he addresses that in his later work though. I'll be interested to see if he has.

Micjones
04-16-2007, 02:35 PM
It's definitely a tricky bag, but I think the lines are clear as it relates to restrictive covenants and other such practices...

007
04-17-2007, 12:07 AM
Those of you with access to channel 27 in Topeka, NBC, the Oprah replay of todays show is on now.

greg63
04-17-2007, 12:08 AM
Those of you with access to channel 27 in Topeka, NBC, the Oprah replay of todays show is on now.

I wish I could get that channel.

KC Kings
04-17-2007, 07:14 AM
I suppose you're missing the progress I'm making with Kotter?
There's a freeflow of ideas with the two of us because he's open minded enough to know the limitations of this kind of exchange.



I began with the resegregation of the public school system.
That's one problem that's ailing Black communities...

Resegregation is a joke. The problem is not with the school system, but the the ignorant parents that allow their children to fail. Why are there so many high school kids that can't read? Because their parents failed them. This all goes back to the people of the community, and since you are referring to black schools, in this instance the black community is faulted. It isn't like every kid that graduates from inner city schools is illiterate. There are plenty of kids that try hard in school, get support from the parents, and succeed in life.

"For decades critics of the public schools have been saying, "You can't solve educational problems by throwing money at them." The education establishment and its supporters have replied, "No one's ever tried." In Kansas City they did try. To improve the education of black students and encourage desegregation, a federal judge invited the Kansas City, Missouri, School District to come up with a cost-is-no-object educational plan and ordered local and state taxpayers to find the money to pay for it.

Kansas City spent as much as $11,700 per pupil--more money per pupil, on a cost of living adjusted basis, than any other of the 280 largest districts in the country. The money bought higher teachers' salaries, 15 new schools, and such amenities as an Olympic-sized swimming pool with an underwater viewing room, television and animation studios, a robotics lab, a 25-acre wildlife sanctuary, a zoo, a model United Nations with simultaneous translation capability, and field trips to Mexico and Senegal. The student-teacher ratio was 12 or 13 to 1, the lowest of any major school district in the country.

The results were dismal. Test scores did not rise; the black-white gap did not diminish; and there was less, not greater, integration.

The Kansas City experiment suggests that, indeed, educational problems can't be solved by throwing money at them, that the structural problems of our current educational system are far more important than a lack of material resources, and that the focus on desegregation diverted attention from the real problem, low achievement."


http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html

KC Kings
04-17-2007, 07:44 AM
Here is another gem of a quote. "As whites abandoned the schools, the school district's ability to raise taxes disappeared. The last year that the voters approved a tax increase for the schools was 1969, the same year that blacks first became a majority. Over the next two decades, the voters of the district declined to approve a tax increase for the school district 19 times in a row."

So the KC school district residents refuse to put anything into the school, then want to blame all of society when the school district fails. And it is not just money, it is the fact that the parents and residents do not care! Even when billions of non-KC money was thrown at the school district nothing changed. Why? Because the parents and residents still did not care.

Baby Lee
04-17-2007, 08:20 AM
Prince Joe Henry has the answer;

Ask a Negro Leaguer (http://www.riverfronttimes.com/2007-04-11/news/why-don-t-more-people-honor-jackie-robinson/)

I'm quite sure that it is the educational system in America that needs a rude awakening. The recent action of Metro High School students in St. Louis points in that direction. Initially, they occupied the mayor's office in protest of their school losing accreditation and later traveled to the capitol in Jefferson City to complain to lawmakers about a state takeover. Since most students were black and because Missouri was a slave state, it would have been unprecedented if they had demanded a test in their school concerning blacks' history in America. I'm not a betting man, but I would have bet that both black and white students would have failed the test, as would have most black and white teachers, in spite of their "degrees." If this same test were applied throughout the country in the best high schools and colleges, black and white, all would lose accreditation. Then the playing field would be leveled. The educational system then could start over again the right way. Until this occurs, there aren't too many "educators."

pikesome
04-17-2007, 08:47 AM
Prince Joe Henry has the answer;

Ask a Negro Leaguer (http://www.riverfronttimes.com/2007-04-11/news/why-don-t-more-people-honor-jackie-robinson/)

I think I understand his point (maybe) but this passage makes no sense. You need to read the rest of the article to figure out he's talking about Black interest in Jackie Robinson, the school stuff makes little sense to that end.

Baby Lee
04-17-2007, 08:53 AM
I think I understand his point (maybe) but this passage makes no sense. You need to read the rest of the article to figure out he's talking about Black interest in Jackie Robinson, the school stuff makes little sense to that end.
Prince Joe is a notorious rambler. His columns are 'lahk uh bowks ah chock-lits.'