Peak of LJ's trade value.

[Frankie]

Is it this year? Or do you think his value will increase in the reasonable future? IMO we may be looking at the peak of his value now. The more he plays, the more his inadequecies (blocking and receiving) will be on film. What do y'all think?

[DMAC]

Of course you can never tell, but if past punisher RB's tell us anything, he should be at maximum trade bait after next season.

[Eleazar]

I think his value is at its peak right now.

[Hammock Parties]

Guys, doom awaits us all.

[Mecca]

It's right now......if he steps on the field and looks like he lost anything everyone will go "to many carries rapidly declining"

[Hammock Parties]

It's right now......if he steps on the field and looks like he lost anything everyone will go "to many carries rapidly declining"

I'm guessing that will be the first bad game he has. And you'll be leading that insipid charge.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I'm guessing that will be the first bad game he has. And you'll be leading that insipid charge.

Be leading?

He's been leading that charge since the day after the playoff game. Maybe longer.

[Easy 6]

The wheels are NOT going to fall off of LJ this year & if he's rested properly, not next year either.

The guy sat & did NOTHING for several years, he has some lag time to make-up.

Most masher backs didnt even come out of college with true speed, LJ did, this guy still has a lot of steps to lose before he's broken down like a Eddie George, Jamal Anderson etc.

[FAX]

He's one of the top backs in the league and we're the Chiefs.

It's time for him to go.

FAX

[DeepSouth]

Dallas built a team that won four superbowls by trading Hershel Walker to Minnisota. I'd say trade him now.

[Hammock Parties]

He's one of the top backs in the league and we're the Chiefs.

It's time for him to go.

FAX

"Let me tell you why I suck as a sales man. Let's say I go into some guys office and let's say hes even remotely interested in buying something. Well then I get all excited I'm like Jojo the idiot circus boy with a pretty new pet. The pet is my possible sale. Oh , my pretty little pet, I love you. So I stoke it, and I pet it, and I massage it, hehe I love it, I love my little naughty pet, your naughty. Then I take my naughty pet and I go *DESTROY* *MAIM* *KILL* *RIP* Uuuuuuh. I killed it. I killed my sale. That's when I blow it. That's when people like us gotta forge ahead Helen, am I right?"

[Mecca]

They better cut his carries by 100.......he better not come close to touching the ball as many times as he did last year.......this isn't a video game.

[Demonpenz]

it might be 2 years ago before he was allowed to show his weaknesses against pash rushers and the inability to catch he ball

[Hammock Parties]

They better cut his carries by 100.......he better not come close to touching the ball as many times as he did last year.......this isn't a video game.

Fun fact: Virtual LJ has sustained more injuries than the REAL LJ.

[Mecca]

Fun fact: Virtual LJ has sustained more injuries than the REAL LJ.

Well LJ is concerned about getting hurt when he plays with himself.

[Easy 6]

it might be 2 years ago before he was allowed to show his weaknesses against pash rushers and the inability to catch he ball

Yeah, he's been inconsistent to maddeningly disappointing in those areas.

But how many Top-Shelf All-Around backs are out there???

I honestly believe he'll improve those areas as time goes on, but even as is, we still have the best pure runner in the game.

I'm good with it.

[htismaqe]

The peak of Larry Johnson's trade value was almost exactly ONE YEAR AGO today.

This poll is flawed.

[Mecca]

The peak of Larry Johnson's trade value was almost exactly ONE YEAR AGO today.

This poll is flawed.

I didn't even think about that but that's true his value last year was higher than it is now.

[Frankie]

Dallas built a team that won four superbowls by trading Hershel Walker to Minnisota. I'd say trade him now.
The rest of the NFL saw that scalping of the Vikes too. I don't think anybody will be that dumb. But I say if we can get high picks and/or solid O-line players for him this year is the time to do it. I like a very good O-line and a couple of adequate backs over a crappy line and a great back.

[Direckshun]

Thing with LJ is, you know the guy's going to give you 16 games.

As many carries as he got last year against some of the meanest defenses, some big hits, and that lethal neck-twist by Rolle... he played all 17 games start to finish.

No point. Just saying.

[Rain Man]

Why in the living name of all that is holy and fried to a crispy crunch do people keep talking about trading our franchise running back? Is there really that much support for Dee Brown as our starter?

I mean, we all know that Damon Huard is going to pass for 5,000 yards and 50 touchdowns, but even so, we're going to need Larry for an occasional draw play.

[Easy 6]

Why in the living name of all that is holy and fried to a crispy crunch do people keep talking about trading our franchise running back? Is there really that much support for Dee Brown as our starter?



No, there really isnt that much support for Dee Brown...but the fact is, is that there are a GAZILLION studpuppy backs in EVERY draft!!!

All we gotta do, is go pick one... :rolleyes:

[FAX]

No, there really isnt that much support for Dee Brown...but the fact is, is that there are a GAZILLION studpuppy backs in EVERY draft!!!

All we gotta do, is go pick one... :rolleyes:

I don't know, Mr. scott free. We gave him the ball 416 times last year and didn't win a single playoff game. Maybe it's time to give someone else a chance.

FAX

[Skip Towne]

It's right now......if he steps on the field and looks like he lost anything everyone will go "to many carries rapidly declining"
No they won't. They will go "too many carries rapidly declining."

[Easy 6]

I don't know, Mr. scott free. We gave him the ball 416 times last year and didn't win a single playoff game. Maybe it's time to give someone else a chance.

FAX

C'mon FAX, Tomlinson would have fared no better on the 06 Chiefs.

The QB & OL carousel would have stymied anyone.

I believe he will win you over...

[FAX]

C'mon FAX, Tomlinson would have fared no better on the 06 Chiefs.

The QB & OL carousel would have stymied anyone.

I believe he will win you over...

Okay, Mr. scott free. You win. He gets 417 more carries. But, that's it.

If we don't win a playoff game, he's outta here.

FAX

[Easy 6]

Okay, Mr. scott free. You win. He gets 417 more carries. But, that's it.

If we don't win a playoff game, he's outta here.

FAX

You got it.

[milkman]

C'mon FAX, Tomlinson would have fared no better on the 06 Chiefs.

The QB & OL carousel would have stymied anyone.

I believe he will win you over...

That's not true.

Before the Chargers upgraded their O-Line and settled their QB position, Tomlinson still produced, and he also caught a hell of a lot of passes when they had no receivers.

[StcChief]

LJ is nearing peak value.

If the Chiefs draft another running back to take the load off 10-15 carries a game. (or get an aging vet ala Bennett)
That could be extended.

[Mr. Laz]

depends on how many carries he gets this coming year


if LJ gets 300-ish carries this year and runs for 1400 yards he stock will skyrocket.


if he gets 350+ carries he stock will drop irregardless of how many yards he gets.


of course, learning to catch and block would help.

[Easy 6]

That's not true.

Before the Chargers upgraded their O-Line and settled their QB position, Tomlinson still produced, and he also caught a hell of a lot of passes when they had no receivers.

You make a good point, but our fraidy cat playcalling in 06 wouldnt have helped at all.

[Mecca]

Thing with LJ is, you know the guy's going to give you 16 games.

As many carries as he got last year against some of the meanest defenses, some big hits, and that lethal neck-twist by Rolle... he played all 17 games start to finish.

No point. Just saying.

So far........RB's that take alot of carries generally become injury prone.

[milkman]

You make a good point, but our fraidy cat playcalling in 06 wouldnt have helped at all.

I think a lot of that "fraidy cat" playcalling was dictated by the fact that LJ is not really as reliable as a receiver as Priest was, and his blocking skills are questionable, at best.

LJ's overall lack of versatility, combined with our mediocre WR corps and the decline of the O-Line derailed the offense.

[FAX]

I think a lot of that "fraidy cat" playcalling was dictated by the fact that LJ is not really as reliable as a receiver as Priest was, and his blocking skills are questionable, at best.

LJ's overall lack of versatility, combined with our mediocre WR corps and the decline of the O-Line derailed the offense.

Interesting point, Mr. milkman. Although I would never disagree with you on any subject sans who defined the TE position in professional football .. are you saying that playcalling was not a factor in the dropoff of the offense? Or that it wasn't the primary factor?

FAX

[Mecca]

Interesting point, Mr. milkman. Although I would never disagree with you on any subject sans who defined the TE position in professional football .. are you saying that playcalling was not a factor in the dropoff of the offense? Or that it wasn't the primary factor?

FAX

Players dictate playcalling........when you have a 1 dimensional RB with a crap line and WR's that can't get open fast enough.......

[milkman]

Interesting point, Mr. milkman. Although I would never disagree with you on any subject sans who defined the TE position in professional football .. are you saying that playcalling was not a factor in the dropoff of the offense? Or that it wasn't the primary factor?

FAX

Mecca hits it in the next post.

Solari was handcuffed by LJ's lack of versatility and the lack of offensive weapons other than LJ as a runner and TG as a receiver.

Throw in a crap O-Line, what's a rookie OC to do?

[Frankie]

Okay, Mr. scott free. You win. He gets 417 more carries. But, that's it.

If we don't win a playoff game, he's outta here.

FAX
MR. FAX FOR MOD!... MR. FAX FOR MOD!

Oh,... Sorry!... Wrong thread. :redface:

[FAX]

Mecca hits it in the next post.

Solari was handcuffed by LJ's lack of versatility and the lack of offensive weapons other than LJ as a runner and TG as a receiver.

Throw in a crap O-Line, what's a rookie OC to do?

Well, I understand the point you and Mr. Mecca are making. And, it's a good one.

I think you guys are being a little generous to Herm and Solari, though.

FAX

[milkman]

Well, I understand the point you and Mr. Mecca are making. And, it's a good one.

I think you guys are being a little generous to Herm and Solari, though.

FAX

I have very little doubt that Herman ****ing Edwards, and Solari by extension, would have gone a little conservative even without those limitations.

I just don't think they would have gotten so extreme with better talent to work with.

[Mecca]

Well, I understand the point you and Mr. Mecca are making. And, it's a good one.

I think you guys are being a little generous to Herm and Solari, though.

FAX

It's hard to be unpredictable and make things work on offense when you have an offensive roster that.....

Holds the ball to long when throwing
Doesn't pass block well
RB doesn't pick up rushers or block well in general...
WR's can't get open because the QB no longer has the luxury of waiting 8 seconds for them to get open.

All the problems manifested each other and led to the Chiefs running nearly every play because every facet of the pass game was ****ed up.

[Manila-Chief]

Mecca hits it in the next post.

Solari was handcuffed by LJ's lack of versatility and the lack of offensive weapons other than LJ as a runner and TG as a receiver.

Throw in a crap O-Line, what's a rookie OC to do?

Plus, you forget the fact that Mike's play calling was handicapped by Herm's offensive philosophy.

I look at this question from another prespective ... could the Chiefs be dangling him as trade bait coz they think he will not resign here once he is allowed to ba a FA??? I mean it seems he is still unhappy with the whole organization. He was unhappy we drafted him in the first place. Then, didn't he have trouble signing his first contract? Next, he had to sit behind Priest for a few years, plus DV called him a baby. He made a point of establishing residency in N.Y.

So, could the FO be trying to get value now before they have to franchise him, etc.????

All things being equal I'm not in favor of trading him. After all he is the essence of Herm's offense and would help us run it to prefection. Also, I remember all those years of looking for a RB before Priest showed up and don't want to go through that again.

I don't put much stock into "he carried the ball 40 eleven dozen times last year." The coaching staff will get that fixed this year, Bennett is health, and LJ had few miles on the odemeter before last year.

But, we are building towards a SB run in a couple or 3 years. Therefore, if LJ will not be here by that time then by all means pick up multi-picks for him now so they can develop in a couple of years.

But, it does sound totally wrong to trade your main O weapon in his prime. :shake: :banghead: :doh!:

[keg in kc]

Mecca hits it in the next post.

Solari was handcuffed by LJ's lack of versatility and the lack of offensive weapons other than LJ as a runner and TG as a receiver.

Throw in a crap O-Line, what's a rookie OC to do?People are lazy. They always go for the easiest target. It's simpler to focus on one or two coaches than it is to consider the offensive personnel as a group and realize that we are old and have neither talent nor depth.

I mean, the facts that...
Roaf retired,
Shields' play continued to fall off,
our left tackle that started the year got hurt,
our right tackle that started the year got hurt,
our starting fullback got hurt, and
our starting quarterback got hurt
had nothing to do with the decline of the offense.

It was Edwards and Solari. They coached down the group of offensive stallions (*cough, choke*) we had.

[milkman]

Plus, you forget the fact that Mike's play calling was handicapped by Herm's offensive philosophy.

I look at this question from another prespective ... could the Chiefs be dangling him as trade bait coz they think he will not resign here once he is allowed to ba a FA??? I mean it seems he is still unhappy with the whole organization. He was unhappy we drafted him in the first place. Then, didn't he have trouble signing his first contract? Next, he had to sit behind Priest for a few years, plus DV called him a baby. He made a point of establishing residency in N.Y.

So, could the FO be trying to get value now before they have to franchise him, etc.????

All things being equal I'm not in favor of trading him. After all he is the essence of Herm's offense and would help us run it to prefection. Also, I remember all those years of looking for a RB before Priest showed up and don't want to go through that again.

I don't put much stock into "he carried the ball 40 eleven dozen times last year." The coaching staff will get that fixed this year, Bennett is health, and LJ had few miles on the odemeter before last year.

But, we are building towards a SB run in a couple or 3 years. Therefore, if LJ will not be here by that time then by all means pick up multi-picks for him now so they can develop in a couple of years.

But, it does sound totally wrong to trade your main O weapon in his prime. :shake: :banghead: :doh!:

I don't know how LJ feels about the future with the Chiefs, but I thought that he signed pretty quickly after he was drafted.

[FAX]

People are lazy. They always go for the easiest target. It's simpler to focus on one or two coaches than it is to consider the offensive personnel as a group and realize that we are old and have neither talent nor depth.

I mean, the facts that...
Roaf retired,
Shields' play continued to fall off,
our left tackle that started the year got hurt,
our right tackle that started the year got hurt,
our starting fullback got hurt, and
our starting quarterback got hurt
had nothing to do with the decline of the offense.

It was Edwards and Solari. They coached down the group of offensive stallions (*cough, choke*) we had.

That all makes sense, Mr. keg in kc. No question.

But the argument can be made that, when you lack talent on offense, playcalling should be more unpredictable, not less. For my part, I wouldn't harbor so much negativity in regards to Herm and/or Solari had they at least made an attempt to catch the opposing defenses a tad off guard.

It's much more difficult for an average or marginal player to successfully execute a play when the defense knows exactly what's coming. Wouldn't you agree?

FAX

[keg in kc]

That all makes sense, Mr. keg in kc. No question.

But the argument can be made that, when you lack talent on offense, playcalling should be more unpredictable, not less. For my part, I wouldn't harbor so much negativity in regards to Herm and/or Solari had they at least made an attempt to catch the opposing defenses a tad off guard.

It's much more difficult for an average or marginal player to successfully execute a play when the defense knows exactly what's coming. Wouldn't you agree?No, I actually wouldn't agree. You can't hide a lack of talent (particularly on the offensive line) with trickery. Coaches and coordinators are overrated (both positively and negatively). It's players that make systems work and the ability of a coaching staff to coach a group above their natural level of ability is limited, at best. No disrespect to Al Saunders, but he was successful from 2002-2005 because he had one of the best offensive lines in football. That gives you virtually unlimited options, because running lanes will always be open and the other team can't touch your QB no matter what you call. It's easy to look like a genius in that situation, and it's my opinion that he would've suffered exactly the same fate as Solari last year.

The thing about offensive systems, be they simple or complex, is that they are all based on the same elements. The same routes are run by receivers, the same blocking techniques are used by linemen and backs, and essentially the same plays are run. In the end, it all comes down to your guys versus their guys. And if your players are not talented enough to beat the guys lined up across from them, no amount of motion or shifting is going to change that fact.

This is by no means a statement of support for conservative offense. What I mean is that I don't think any kind of schematic change would have made things better in 2006, and I think, in fact, that a more complicated or perhaps aggressive approach would have led to even worse results, along the lines of 2001.

Which does not bode well at all for 2007.

[FAX]

Well stated, Mr. keg in kc. In fact, I agree with everything you say. But, perhaps, we're talking apples and ardvarks here.

I'm not suggesting that trickery, shifting, and motion is the answer. Rather, I'm saying that, when a defense has a pretty darn good idea that you're going to run it between the tackles on 1st down, after a while you're not going to get substantial yards no matter who is playing o-line or how fabulous your back is. Allow them to anticipate the same play on 2nd down and you're in real trouble.

There's no question that coaches coach and it's up to players to execute. Certainly, even the greatest coach can scheme his heart out and it won't make a bad player any better. But, you've got to help your guys out a little by mixing up the play calling sufficiently to provide some slight advantage. The sad fact is, enemy defenses didn't stuff the box for no reason last year.

That's why, when Herm says he's going to "simplify" the offense, I get nervous.

FAX

[Mecca]

I think when he says simplified offense it's a nice way of saying "the past staffs playbook was so ridiculous it took guys 2-3 years to learn the damn thing and that's retarded"

[Manila-Chief]

Mecca ... I agree with reducing the size of the play book. But, I remember an article last year after Trent came back in which he expressed a philosophy difference with Herm's O. I think the difference is that DV didn't mind an occasional interception from the QB because he would throw several TD's and thus help win the game (if we only had a defense to stop the other O) ... but, Herm is unhappy with any turnover and does not want his QB taking any chances. That is why Huard ran the offense better ... he adopted to the way Herm wanted it run. It's hard for a QB who has been "going way down field with the ball" to all of a sudden start dinking and dunking it.

Maybe with our personnel we couldn't do it last year... but the point is Herm didn't want us to do it even if we had the players.

FAX is exactly correct ... Herm is the one behind the run 2 plays into the middle of the line (and as Fax says -- it doesn't work once the D knows it is coming) ... then incomplete pass (coz they know what is coming and punt. At least DV & Al would air it out every now and then on 1st. to keep the D honest ... or even ... they would throw short passes on 1st. down coz they believed they could eventually get the first down. But, it seems Herm thinks if you pass on 1st. down then there is no way to make it.

The real problem is Herm lying to us. He came in saying he would not change the offense ... "who would want to not score all those points." ... but, then he did change the whole philosophy.

I know we must have a change this year. We don't have the coaches nor the horses to run a try to score every possession offense. But, at least change up the first down calls.

[Frankie]

I think the difference is that DV didn't mind an occasional interception from the QB because he would throw several TD's and thus help win the game (if we only had a defense to stop the other O) ... but, Herm is unhappy with any turnover and does not want his QB taking any chances.
I like DV's philosophy better. I don't like chicken shit offence.

[Mecca]

Bill Cowher won a Superbowl with chicken shit offense....

What did the offense win us....

[Frankie]

Bill Cowher won a Superbowl with chicken shit offense....

What did the offense win us....
DV didn't put up a good D to go along with his O. Or he'd have another SB ring (or two.)

[Easy 6]

That's not true.

Before the Chargers upgraded their O-Line and settled their QB position, Tomlinson still produced, and he also caught a hell of a lot of passes when they had no receivers.

I might also add, that LJ didnt exactly half step it in 06 either. He has areas to work on...but lets not sit here & discount 1700 yds. either.

This again begs the question, just how many Top-Flight All-Around backs are out there???

My take, is that were DAMN lucky to have what we have.

[htismaqe]

I think when he says simplified offense it's a nice way of saying "the past staffs playbook was so ridiculous it took guys 2-3 years to learn the damn thing and that's retarded"

That playbook is going over like gangbusters in Washington.

ROFL

[Mr. Flopnuts]

That playbook is going over like gangbusters in Washington.

ROFL


:LOL: They just don't have the personnel.

[Mr. Laz]

That playbook is going over like gangbusters in Washington.

ROFL
so which fuggin is it


in KC, the offense sucks because of the players ... not the coaching


in washington, the offense sucks not because of the players ... because of the coaching.

[Hammock Parties]

I think he's just saying Al Saunders is no miracle worker.

[Frankie]

Topic up.

[htismaqe]

so which fuggin is it


in KC, the offense sucks because of the players ... not the coaching


in washington, the offense sucks not because of the players ... because of the coaching.

I'm saying that it's the players. It always has been and always will be about the talent.

Saunders without Willie Roaf equals = run of the mill.

[Easy 6]

I'm saying that it's the players. It always has been and always will be about the talent.

Saunders without Willie Roaf equals = run of the mill.

Thats what i dont get about the skins, they do have solid bookend OT's in Samuels & Jansen.

IMO they should be a lot better than they are, Samuels is no Roaf, but he IS stout.

The problems with those guys are more than skin (coaches&players) deep, there just seems to be a strange malaise hanging over that club.

[noa]

Thats what i dont get about the skins, they do have solid bookend OT's in Samuels & Jansen.

IMO they should be a lot better than they are, Samuels is no Roaf, but he IS stout.

The problems with those guys are more than skin (coaches&players) deep, there just seems to be a strange malaise hanging over that club.


I think their offense was held back by Mark Brunell, who was at the end of his career when Saunders started. He had that game where he set a record for consecutive completions thanks to Saunders' play calling, but other than that, he was pretty lousy. We'll see what Saunders can do with Jason Campbell this season.

[Easy 6]

I think their offense was held back by Mark Brunell, who was at the end of his career when Saunders started. He had that game where he set a record for consecutive completions thanks to Saunders' play calling, but other than that, he was pretty lousy. We'll see what Saunders can do with Jason Campbell this season.

Yeah, Brunell is the very definition of Washed-Up.

I cant claim to have seen a lot of Campbell, but what i have seen makes me question whether or not he has the accuracy to excel in the Coryell.

[Logical]

That's not true.

Before the Chargers upgraded their O-Line and settled their QB position, Tomlinson still produced, and he also caught a hell of a lot of passes when they had no receivers.100 receptions one season. We cannot compare LJ with LT there is no comparison, LT is vastly better than LJ in complete back terms.

[Logical]

so which fuggin is it


in KC, the offense sucks because of the players ... not the coaching


in washington, the offense sucks not because of the players ... because of the coaching.

I admit it is laughable to compare the Chiefs offensive line while he was here with the Redskins line I think Saunders is an amazing coordinator but without that offensive line it would stifle his ability to produce. In fairness though he has only had one season in Washington, it took him two here to really get things going.