Is life without a God (pick your favorite) meaningless?

[jAZ]

I was listening to a radio station that had the Dennis Prager Show. He's a Jewish Conservative who's views mirror those of the politics of Evangelical Christians in many ways.

He had an atheist guest on his show and they were discussing his views.

Prager asked the atheist if he believed that made the point that life without a "God" was meaningless.

It's a question that got me thinking. Since it's the offseason and the draft is over, I thought I would ask the folks here what they though.

I have my opinions, but I'm curious what others are. In particuar, I'm curious what peoples' views look like when broken down by several catagories.

(poll forthcoming)

(Note: I use the term "God" to mean what we trypically think of as a God in a generic sense. This obviously includes God from any traditional organized religions - pick your favorite.)

[tiptap]

This is all the cogent existence that this collection of particular atoms will get. I cherish the fact that I can get a glimpse of so many different aspects of existence by way of my imagination and intelligence. As an Epicurean, for the most part, I find pleasantries and existence (family, friends and occasional revelry) all the meaning I want. I do not need some external entities notion of marching orders to gain meaning.

[BigCatDaddy]

In the grand scheme of things sure it is pointless without a God or some sort of afterlife judgement. If you just live, then die and are never heard of or thought of again where is the meaning? What is the point? What is the purpose?

[Hammock Parties]

If you need ANOTHER life to give THIS ONE a point, you're dumb.

[sedated]

I don't think its meaningless, you can find meaning in anything, especially life. Its goal oriented, but the goal just isn't to please a god or go to a certain place in the afterlife.

It can be very self-destructive though. The only one you have to answer to is yourself.

[OnTheWarpath15]

If you need ANOTHER life to give THIS ONE a point, you're dumb.

"The Blade" has been "coming soon" for quite a while. I'd say you're a bit past a deep tease. What's the deal?

Back on topic:

This is bad timing for me, I have a Philosophy final exam next week, and personally, I'm sick of the subject. And I'm about to walk into that class....

I agree with Sedated's take, for the most part.....

[sedated]

In the grand scheme of things sure it is pointless without a God or some sort of afterlife judgement. If you just live, then die and are never heard of or thought of again where is the meaning? What is the point? What is the purpose?

what's the purpose of life for those that don't go to heaven or whatever.

what's the point of likfe for bacteria, a tree, a dog, etc?

they are born, live, reproduce, and die.

[eazyb81]

Why would life be meaningless without a God? Can't you simply enjoy your time here on Earth without worrying about an afterlife?

The experiences we have here with friends, family, etc give meaning to life, IMO.

[BigCatDaddy]

I don't think its meaningless, you can find meaning in anything, especially life. Its goal oriented, but the goal just isn't to please a god or go to a certain place in the afterlife.

It can be very self-destructive though. The only one you have to answer to is yourself.

And how has that attitude worked out?

[htismaqe]

If you need ANOTHER life to give THIS ONE a point, you're dumb.

Not being willing to accept an alternative point of view is dumb.

[kc rush]

As long as we continue to breed, then life has meaning. Even if you believe that once you die, that is the end, I would think that making life better for your decendents would give it meaning.

[BigCatDaddy]

I talking about the existence of the human race as a whole. Sure your life can have an affect on the here and now, your friends, family, and be meaningful to them.

To answer the other questions God created those things, some for the enjoyment of Man, such as dogs. It's when the Fall of the world happened that things started to go bad with disease, poverty, and such.

[Eleazar]

I think that without some kind of significance past the time when you assume room temperature, life is pretty much absurd.

If when you're dead, you're just dead and that's it - you cease to exist and are nothing, did your choices matter much? Whether you had a good life or bad, you are no longer able to feel the joy or pain of either. You could have affected other people, but they'll be dead pretty soon too and free of any consequences.

The universe is getting colder over time. Eventually, the human race will die out. When the whole species is gone, and no one is left to feel any choices that were made, what does it matter? When someday the earth is barren and uninhabited, will it matter if I decided to pay a parking ticket?

If something will eventually pass out of existence, I don't see how one can assign any eternal significance to it. It's ultimately meaningless.

[eazyb81]

Trippy.....someone needs to pass the :bong:

[sedated]

religion, IMO, is a way for people to feel better about death. its a lot more comforting to say, "they've gone to a better place"

(that's one aspect of it, and why its so hard to get rid of religion)

but we are just animals with a higher thought process, born from earth, return to earth

[Hammock Parties]

"The Blade" has been "coming soon" for quite a while. I'd say you're a bit past a deep tease. What's the deal?

Waiting on someone to deliver source video.... :banghead:

[sedated]

And how has that attitude worked out?

are you implying that the sole purpose of life is to please a higher power?

[Simply Red]

religion, IMO, is a way for people to feel better about death. its a lot more comforting to say, "they've gone to a better place"

(that's one aspect of it, and why its so hard to get rid of religion)

but we are just animals with a higher thought process, born from earth, return to earth
pass that shit dog.

[chagrin]

Here we go again, JAZ how friggin boring is the presidential race that yo've got to stir shit here again?

[sedated]

didn't we already have the "are atheists inherently miserable?" discussion, musta been less than a year ago

[htismaqe]

didn't we already have the "are atheists inherently miserable?" discussion, musta been less than a year ago

Are atheists inherently miserable?

Or are miserable people more inclined to be atheists?

[Adept Havelock]

Personally, I see religion as a trade off. You trade some degree of your rationality for a degree of immunity from fear of death. :shrug:

JMO.

[Hammock Parties]

Question: What would be so great about an afterlife?

[htismaqe]

Question: What would be so great about an afterlife?

Answer: Ask a Shiite Muslim.

[kcxiv]

Just beleive in what you feel. Thats all there is to it. I want no part of organized religion. They have done me wrong in the past. I just stick to reading the bible, and i think for myself. If its one thing i learned about organized religion is they want you to believe what the bibles says in their point of view. I think thats wrong. God gave us free will and we can think for ourselves, they want to think for you.

I guess thats just how i feel becuase i have been done wrong by reborn christians.


I also will tell you one thing, if people that dont beleive in god are in serious serious trouble, i would almost bet my life on it, that the words, "if there is a god out there, can you please help me" will come outl lol

[Braincase]

Answer: Ask a Shiite Muslim.

I like Steve Martin's answer.

[eazyb81]

I like Steve Martin's answer.

Or Robin Williams.

[Eleazar]

religion, IMO, is a way for people to feel better about death. its a lot more comforting to say, "they've gone to a better place"

(that's one aspect of it, and why its so hard to get rid of religion)

but we are just animals with a higher thought process, born from earth, return to earth

I can just flip that around. You say that people want to believe in religion to feel more comfortable with death, but I think that many people don't want to believe there is a God, because if there is one then they might face consequences for their choices someday, and they don't want to be burdened by anyone judging them.

They believe life is essentially just a momentary pursuit of their own erotic desires without consequences, as Aldous Huxley was willing to freely admit, and so they are initially biased against the belief, because it would require them to change their lifestyle or at least make them feel guilty about it. Pleasure is the only thing that's important, with a close second being making sure that nothing makes you feel bad about the former.

If there's no ultimate significance to life then I couldn't disagree with that viewpoint.

[SLAG]

As a Catholic the Meaning of life is to Know God, To Love God, and To serve him in this life and be happy with him in the next.

God still loves those that choose not to love him, but the butthole pleasures of this world will be the only reward they will ever know.

[Uncle_Ted]

I can just flip that around. You say that people want to believe in religion to feel more comfortable with death, but I think that many people don't want to believe there is a God, because if there is one then they might face consequences for their choices someday, and they don't want to be burdened by anyone judging them.

They believe life is essentially just a momentary pursuit of their own erotic desires without consequences, as Aldous Huxley was willing to freely admit, and so they are initially biased against the belief, because it would require them to change their lifestyle or at least make them feel guilty about it.

And that's really the way that hedonists operate. Pleasure is the only thing that's important, with a close second in belief being making sure that nothing makes you feel bad about the former.

I have to disagree with that characterization of atheists. All the people I know who are atheists are very moral people, moreso than the average "religious" person.

My own personal view is that belief in a "God" has very little to do with being a "good" person.

[Hammock Parties]

As a Catholic the Meaning of life is to Know God, To Love God, and To serve him in this life and be happy with him in the next.

God still loves those that choose not to love him, but the butthole pleasures of this world will be the only reward they will ever know.

What reward do Catholics get? An afterlifetime supply of wafers?

[sedated]

They believe life is essentially just a momentary pursuit of their own erotic desires without consequences, as Aldous Huxley was willing to freely admit, and so they are initially biased against the belief, because it would require them to change their lifestyle or at least make them feel guilty about it. Pleasure is the only thing that's important, with a close second being making sure that nothing makes you feel bad about the former.

its a chicken /egg argument.

does hedonism create a lack of belief?

or does lack of belief create hedonism?

[Eleazar]

I have to disagree with that characterization of atheists. All the people I know who are atheists are very moral people, moreso than the average "religious" person.

Some people derive pleasure from adhering to whatever moral code they find relevant. Taking pleasure in feeling that you have lived your life 'correctly' is still pleasure.

I'm not using these thoughts in a pejorative context, by the way. I'm only trying to label things in terms of what motivates people to make decisions.

[BucEyedPea]

My spiritual views are eclectic.

I was raised Roman Catholic and nearly converted to Judaism at one point.
I'm interested in spiritual things....I am still seeking. I do believe in life after death, and the general notion of a Supreme Being.

I do think an atheist can be moral and/or ethical as I believe these things can be practical, commone sense and wise for a happy life.
I think it depends on how they were reared as with anything.

[DaFace]

I have to disagree with that characterization of atheists. All the people I know who are atheists are very moral people, moreso than the average "religious" person.

My own personal view is that belief in a "God" has very little to do with being a "good" person.

Thanks for that. It's rare that people actually "get" that concept.

[SLAG]

What reward do Catholics get? An afterlifetime supply of wafers?


The reward is eternal Life with God, and all the angels and saints.

The Punishment is Total absence of God.

Even one who rejects God on this Earth is not totally void of God since he Loves us endlessly, it is once we condemn ourself to hell is when we are TOTALLY without him.

[Amnorix]

Without even reading the thread, its beyond absurd. Ask my wife and kids if my life is meaningless to them.

[El Jefe]

You know these threads always get me bite in the but, or I get a bunch of negative rep with some not so nice words. I want to address that before I delve into the subject matter. I have never pushed my opinion on anyone or preached to them when they didnt ask to be preached too. I have only addressed the question or thread topic, and I give my opinion, which doesnt mean much on this site. But its funny for me because they ask for your opinion then criticize your opinion and they criticize you. But thats what makes these forums, "these forums", so if you dont like it leave. I understand so I just pick my battles.

On this topic, I think that life without God is meaningless. I am a Baptist (we are a bit more conservative than Southern), I believe God put us here for a reason. That is to glorify him in all we do, to make disciples and preach the word of God to the utmost parts of the world. I understand nobody is perfect people sin and all that but thats my view on this question. If you arent saved or havent accepted Jesus into your heart, you will go to hell after death. Sin entered the world through Adam and Eve and thats why we live in a wicked sinful world. You think if God put us here he put us here for a reason, this is what I would think If I wasnt saved. But life without God, is impossible because he gave us life..........All my beliefs, you dont have to agree but someday like the bible says "every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord". If you dont agree with me I can accept that just fine.

[Uncle_Ted]

Some people derive pleasure from adhering to whatever moral code they find relevant. Taking pleasure in feeling that you have lived your life 'correctly' is still pleasure.

I guess that's one way to look at it, but not very enlightening. By that same argument you could say that devotees of any particular religion get pleasure and solace from believing in their God and following what they believe to be a divinely-inspired instruction on how to live their lives. Believing in God solely because (a) you desire some wonderful idyllic afterlife and/or (b) because you fear going to Hell isn't really "faith" at all ... just pure self-interest.

The above is admittedly a simplification, and may not apply to you or your faith. I do believe that there are some people in this world (albeit a minority) whose faith in God is what I would term "true faith", not just faith inspired by fear, solace, or reward.

[DaFace]

I can just flip that around. You say that people want to believe in religion to feel more comfortable with death, but I think that many people don't want to believe there is a God, because if there is one then they might face consequences for their choices someday, and they don't want to be burdened by anyone judging them.

They believe life is essentially just a momentary pursuit of their own erotic desires without consequences, as Aldous Huxley was willing to freely admit, and so they are initially biased against the belief, because it would require them to change their lifestyle or at least make them feel guilty about it. Pleasure is the only thing that's important, with a close second being making sure that nothing makes you feel bad about the former.

If there's no ultimate significance to life then I couldn't disagree with that viewpoint.

I'm 100% atheist, and I base my moral code on humanism. My definitions of right and wrong largely stem from the idea that things that are "right" will benefit mankind as a whole, and things that are "wrong" will cause some level of distress to mankind as a whole. I know a great number or religious people who are far more motivated by "pleasure-seeking" than I am.

I'm not saying that there aren't atheists in the world who are motivated by pleasure, but I'd argue that your generalizations are completely false.

[chasedude]

My own personal view is that belief in a "God" has very little to do with being a "good" person.

Like seeing those 6-day fakers out there. You know who I'm talking about. All buddy buddy in church on Sunday and assholes the rest of the week... 6-day faker.

[Amnorix]

As a Catholic the Meaning of life is to Know God, To Love God, and To serve him in this life and be happy with him in the next.

Then why aren't all Catholics priests, nuns or monks?

I think a fair number of Catholics would suggest that this is a bit over the top, and that not even God thinks that serving him is the be all and end all "meaning" of life.

[Hammock Parties]

The reward is eternal Life with God, and all the angels and saints.


Do they get the NFL Sunday Ticket?

[Amnorix]

I think that without some kind of significance past the time when you assume room temperature, life is pretty much absurd.

If when you're dead, you're just dead and that's it - you cease to exist and are nothing, did your choices matter much? Whether you had a good life or bad, you are no longer able to feel the joy or pain of either. You could have affected other people, but they'll be dead pretty soon too and free of any consequences.

The universe is getting colder over time. Eventually, the human race will die out. When the whole species is gone, and no one is left to feel any choices that were made, what does it matter? When someday the earth is barren and uninhabited, will it matter if I decided to pay a parking ticket?

If something will eventually pass out of existence, I don't see how one can assign any eternal significance to it. It's ultimately meaningless.


More or less, except as relates to the context within which it occurs, or to its consequence son future events.

Note that under your definition, the life of every pet is meaningless, because as far as I know there's no Valhalla for them. Ask the 10 year old how meaningless his dog's life is to him.

And besides, even with a heaven, what "meaning" does your life have? Even assuming Catholics have it right, does the existence of heaven and a hereafter retroactively give meaning to the life on earth? Why, because you passed some kind of test and get to play golf in heaven 1,000 years later?

Check out how big the universe is, and how insigifnicant our little planet is, and you will have a true sense of how "meaningless" we are. And yet, that doesn't mean that life should be forsaken, or can't be worthwhile.

[SLAG]

Then why aren't all Catholics priests, nuns or monks?

I think a fair number of Catholics would suggest that this is a bit over the top, and that not even God thinks that serving him is the be all and end all "meaning" of life.


We serve God in Different ways, he calls us to our own vocation, whether through marriage and having children, Being a Religious, or the single life.

we can serve God No matter how we are called..

but you are right that most people that claim to be "Catholic" think many things of the religion are over the top... they Pick and choose and hence you have Cafeteria Catholicism.. those people are NOT true Catholics...

['Hamas' Jenkins]

God is a 7 year old burning ants with a magnifying glass.

[El Jefe]

Like seeing those 6-day fakers out there. You know who I'm talking about. All buddy buddy in church on Sunday and assholes the rest of the week... 6-day faker.

You know unfortunately this is something that happens a lot these days. We have always called them "casual Christians", they believe if they come to church, go through the routine, put in some money, sing a few songs it atones for what they did wrong. Now I am by no means saying I am better than anyone because I am not at all. But I hate to see people act like they are a christian and then dont strive to live like one, like Jesus says "you cannot serve two master", meaning serving the Lord and the world.

[Hammock Parties]

we can serve God No matter how we are called..


What if someone doesn't want to serve god, even in the face of undeniable evidence that he exists?

[SLAG]

What if someone doesn't want to serve god, even in the face of undeniable evidence that he exists?
Then So Be it..

God Still Loves them just the same..

That person would then make the choice to separate them self from God.. not God From him..

That someone chose Hell Freely and openly

[patteeu]

Agnostic here. I voted that life can have meaning without God, but I'd guess that life can have even more personal meaning for those who believe in an afterlife than for those who believe that life ends at death and for those who simply don't know.

[BigMeatballDave]

My beliefs are a simple. I believe in Jesus and God. I don't go to church. I don't pray. I live an honest life, and treat people as I like to be treated. I believe I am going to heaven. Any of you bible beaters who think otherwise, are foolish.

[Hammock Parties]

God Still Loves them just the same..

That someone chose Hell Freely and openly

Gee, real loving god you got there.

[El Jefe]

Any of you bible beaters who think otherwise, are foolish.


I would be so confident in something that you cant be 100% sure about. You dont know for a fact you are going to heaven. Is there a Bible out there that says be nice to people and use the "golden rule" you will fir sure go to heaven. And calling us Bible Beaters is so very tired.

[El Jefe]

Agnostic here. I voted that life can have meaning without God, but I'd guess that life can have even more personal meaning for those who believe in an afterlife than for those who believe that life ends at death and for those who simply don't know.

This is an opinion that a lot of people I used to go to school with had. In the end its your choice what you want to believe. Because a lot of people on here wont hear most sides they will say their opinion, and thats what they believe. I accept that and its sad but its your choice.

[SLAG]

Gee, real loving god you got there.


I guess you just have a hard time understanding that if you openly and freely Reject something then you still cant have what you Rejected

[Hammock Parties]

I guess you just have a hard time understanding that if you openly and freely Reject something then you still cant have what you Rejected

Uh, I DON'T want it. I also don't want to be PUNISHED for not wanting it. I'd rather be left the **** alone and allowed to live my life the way I see fit - without interference from an egomaniac deity that is so insecure it requires my obeisance.

[SLAG]

Uh, I DON'T want it. I also don't want to be PUNISHED for not wanting it. I'd rather be left the **** alone and allowed to live my life the way I see fit - without interference from an egomaniac deity that is so insecure it requires my obeisance.

Well you are free to do that.. but.. you will be Punished for it..

[jAZ]

...but I'd guess that life can have even more personal meaning for those who believe in an afterlife than for those who believe that life ends at death and for those who simply don't know.
I'd think it's actually almost certainly the other way around...

Those who expect a life (Heaven?) after this one... seem to me to tend diminish the innate value of this life.

You see that in the voting in this poll. 85% of evangelicals voting in this poll say that life has no innate meaning of it's own. That lifes meaning is 100% derived from the meaning that is derived by the presence of God. In that sense... life doesn't have meaning... only God does.

Where as 100% of atheists & agnostics say that life can have innate meaning with or without any meaning brought to it by a possible God.

[Hammock Parties]

Well you are free to do that.. but.. you will be Punished for it..

:(

[Jenson71]

I'm 100% atheist, and I base my moral code on humanism. My definitions of right and wrong largely stem from the idea that things that are "right" will benefit mankind as a whole, and things that are "wrong" will cause some level of distress to mankind as a whole. I know a great number or religious people who are far more motivated by "pleasure-seeking" than I am.

I'm not saying that there aren't atheists in the world who are motivated by pleasure, but I'd argue that your generalizations are completely false.

And when a group of people believe that wiping out an entire race of people will benefit mankind, as has certainly happened before, you would probably disagree, right? So are they just following the wrong brand of humanism? And what makes you decide that? Your own belief of right and wrong that can benefit mankind? And where does that belief come from?

[jAZ]

Well you are free to do that.. but.. you will be Punished for it..
The notion of "Punishment" is relative. If you say instead... "your actions will have consequences"... I think even GoChiefs would agree with you.

[SLAG]

The notion of "Punishment" is relative. If you say instead... "your actions will have consequences"... I think even GoChiefs would agree with you.


I was using his terminology , but also IMHO it is a Punishment.

At some point it boils down to Faith.. Believing without seeing..

either you do or you dont...

[Adept Havelock]

Well you are free to do that.. but.. you will be Punished for it..


That's part of what causes severe cognitive dissonance for me on this issue.

If there's an all-powerful, all-loving being out there, I simply can't believe that it would condemn anyone to an eternity of torture and suffering (unbelievers Burn in Hell, etc.). That's a pretty twisted definition of "all-loving", IMO.

Or, as the venerable Bard from Butler put it (far more eloquently than I):

The most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by H.Sapiens is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of the Universes, wants the sacharrine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not recieve this flattery. Yet this ridiculous notion, without one real shred of evidence to bolster it, has gone on to found one of the oldest, largest and least productive industries in history.

JMO.

You are correct Slag, it comes down to what you put faith in. As for me, see my sigline for further details.

[htismaqe]

Check out how big the universe is, and how insigifnicant our little planet is, and you will have a true sense of how "meaningless" we are. And yet, that doesn't mean that life should be forsaken, or can't be worthwhile.

Our "little" planet is quite "insignificant".

Yet it all comes together RIGHT HERE.

:hmmm:

[jAZ]

I was using his terminology , but also IMHO it is a Punishment.

At some point it boils down to Faith.. Believing without seeing..

either you do or you dont...
I understand...

My point is that if you had it (Hell, no Heaven, whatever) happen to you... you'd see it as punishment.

Another might see Hell or a lack of Heaven as a neutral outcome or even a reward of sorts.

Think about the guy/girl who gets off on being spanked. It's all relative.

But I think effectively everyone can agree no matter what, whatever happens is a "consequence" of whatever actions are taken.

[jAZ]

Our "little" planet is quite "insignificant".

Yet it all comes together RIGHT HERE.

:hmmm:
It may come together all over the place.

[htismaqe]

It may come together all over the place.

That would require a bit of "faith", don't you think?

:hmmm:

[jAZ]

That would require a bit of "faith", don't you think?

:hmmm:
The only thing my statement requires is speculation. I did say "may".

Unlike Christians, Mulsims or Jews... I'm not telling you that there is advanced life on other planets.

Like agnostics... I'm saying there "may" be life on other planets.

It only requires faith if you speak with certainty about things you can't possibly know.

[Chief Faithful]

If there is a God then life without God is meaningless. If there is no God then none of this matters so I'm not voting.

Taking my ball and going home.

[htismaqe]

The only thing my statement requires is speculation. I did say "may". Unlike Christians, Mulsims or Jews... I'm not telling you that there is advanced life on other planets.

Like agnostics... I'm saying there "may" be life on other planets.

It only requires faith if you speak with certainty about things you can't possibly know.

I'm playing devil's advocate. There's no need to squiggle.

[Jenson71]

Because we are on the subject, I would just like to post part of one of John Paul II's last Encyclicals "Faith and Reason":

"Moreover, the first absolutely certain truth of our life, beyond the fact that we exist, is the inevitability of our death. Given this unsettling fact, the search for a full answer is inescapable. Each of us has both the desire and the duty to know the truth of our own destiny. We want to know if death will be the definitive end of our life or if there is something beyond—if it is possible to hope for an after-life or not. It is not insignificant that the death of Socrates gave philosophy one of its decisive orientations, no less decisive now than it was more than two thousand years ago. It is not by chance, then, that faced with the fact of death philosophers have again and again posed this question, together with the question of the meaning of life and immortality.

27. No-one can avoid this questioning, neither the philosopher nor the ordinary person. The answer we give will determine whether or not we think it possible to attain universal and absolute truth; and this is a decisive moment of the search. Every truth—if it really is truth—presents itself as universal, even if it is not the whole truth. If something is true, then it must be true for all people and at all times. Beyond this universality, however, people seek an absolute which might give to all their searching a meaning and an answer—something ultimate, which might serve as the ground of all things. In other words, they seek a final explanation, a supreme value, which refers to nothing beyond itself and which puts an end to all questioning."

[jAZ]

I'm playing devil's advocate. There's no need to squiggle.
I understand... BTW, what do you mean by or see as "squiggle".

[stlchiefs]

If you need ANOTHER life to give THIS ONE a point, you're dumb.

You can always pick out the intelligent one in a conversation by how eloquently they can express their view without immediately attacking someone else. :rolleyes:

[sedated]

Well you are free to do that.. but.. you will be Punished for it..

one would think that, if there is a god(s), your treatment in the afterlife would be based on how you acted toward your fellow man rather than what you believed.

so, a child-molesting corrupt priest gets to heaven, while the atheistic philanthropist gets f*cked in the ass for eternity?

[luv]

Whether you believe in a God or not, life without hope is meaningless. Some people put their hope in that God knows what's best for them and will provide. Others hope that they have what it takes to make it on their own. For some of us, it's a combination of the two.

[htismaqe]

I understand... BTW, what do you mean by or see as "squiggle".

I didn't necessarily mean you were already squiggling, but I know you...I could feel a squiggle coming on...

[SLAG]

one would think that, if there is a god(s), your treatment in the afterlife would be based on how you acted toward your fellow man rather than what you believed.

so, a child-molesting corrupt priest gets to heaven, while the atheistic philanthropist gets f*cked in the ass for eternity?



Yes and No..

People will have consequences for their actions... a priest that molests children is not a Good priest.. and if he does not repent, and amend his ways and pay restitution to the people he hurt then he may not get to heaven.

while an atheist who donates money to the arts or sponsors an Ethiopian kid.. if he freely rejects God and his teachings may not earn salvation either..no matter how many good Deeds he does... unless he gives the ultimate sacrifice and lays his life down for another

[htismaqe]

so, a child-molesting corrupt priest gets to heaven, while the atheistic philanthropist gets f*cked in the ass for eternity?

ROFL

Um, no.

[HolyHandgernade]

Well, as an "integral panendeist" (or just deist to keep it simple), I see Deity as the context in which everything arises. "Meaning" is for humans, and is simply one of the possibilities that can arise. Whether someone wants to treat that reverentially, pedesterianly, or inconsequentially is a decision one makes in reference to their developed value system. If there is indeed Deity, I doubt very little that Deity has a preference about anything let alone how one defines "meaning".

"Meaning" is for each individual, and what gives them that meaning may be a spiritual exploration, it may be an intellectual exploration,it may be a physical exploration. Integrally speaking, I think all three apply, but I don't think all people need to do such. So, in the grand scheme of things, I suppose Deity is required if anything, "meaning" included, is to emerge. But I don't believe the individual has to acknowledge this in order to have any sense of meaning in their lives.

-HH

[jAZ]

You can always pick out the intelligent one in a conversation by how eloquently they can express their view without immediately attacking someone else. :rolleyes:
I thought it was a pretty astute point up to the end. Had that though occured to me in that way, I probably would have said..

"I don't understand how some people need ANOTHER life to give THIS ONE a point".

[htismaqe]

unless he gives the ultimate sacrifice and lays his life down for another

I'm pretty sure there isn't a single faction of Christianity that believes this.

[jAZ]

Whether you believe in a God or not, life without hope is meaningless. Some people put their hope in that God knows what's best for them and will provide. Others hope that they have what it takes to make it on their own. For some of us, it's a combination of the two.
I don't know whether Hope gives meaning, or if it's really just 2 different words for the same idea...

But regardless of that answer... I really like how you are thinking about this.

It fits exactly with the thoughts I was having on this topic earlier.

I am agnostic. So while I don't rule out "God" I don't believe in "Him" either.

But I realize that greatest moment in my life to date was the birth of my son in December. I didn't need to believe in God to appreciate that moment for value that it has.

And as I've gone about learning what it means to be a Dad, I see that what you say seems true. While I don't secure my "hope" from a faith in "God"... I do gain a simiar sense in my relationship and commitment to my son.

[Amnorix]

Agnostic here. I voted that life can have meaning without God, but I'd guess that life can have even more personal meaning for those who believe in an afterlife than for those who believe that life ends at death and for those who simply don't know.


errr....so whether life has more meaning or not is indexed to how much you think it has perpetual meaning? :spock:

Did I misread this one Pat?

[luv]

I don't know whether Hope gives meaning, or if it's really just 2 different words for the same idea...

But regardless of that answer... I really like how you are thinking about this.

It fits exactly with the thoughts I was having on this topic earlier.

I am agnostic. So while I don't rule out "God" I don't believe in "Him" either.

But I realize that greatest moment in my life to date was the birth of my son in December. I didn't need to believe in God to appreciate that moment for value that it has.

And as I've gone about learning what it means to be a Dad, I see that what you say seems true. While I don't secure my "hope" from a faith in "God"... I do gain a simiar sense in my relationship and commitment to my son.
I do believe in God. I certainly hope He has some kind of hand in what happens to me now and in the future. I trust that he won't give me more than I can handle. But I also believe that you do have to make things happen for yourself. I think it comes from living alone, and the necessity of doing things for yourself. I'm a big believer in fate and destiny. There's a bigger picture (which God knows), but you have to control which direction it goes in at times. That, to me, is the hard part. I know where I want my life to go, I just haven't figured out how to get it there. Hopefully, God knows where I'll end up.

[keg in kc]

Life is what you want it to be.

[Amnorix]

Our "little" planet is quite "insignificant".

Yet it all comes together RIGHT HERE.

:hmmm:

Well, what comes together? Just humans.

But we're just a infintesimally insignificant part of the greater universe.

And yet, so what? People don't like to think that their life, or that the lives of this planet, are meaningless in some kind of greater scheme of things, but ultimately, if we nuked ourselves off the planet today, life would continue on this planet, albeit in a different form, and the orbit of this world would continue around the sun, which itself rotates within the greater galaxy known as the milky way, which itself is one of thousands upon thousands of galaxies.

We don't need to justify our existence, but neither is the fact that the universe doesn't rotate around us (notiwthstanding the fact that the Catholic Church MURDERED people who said otherwise, for centuries) mean that we shoudl throw ourselves on our collective swords.

[htismaqe]

Well, what comes together? Just humans.

But we're just a infintesimally insignificant part of the greater universe.

And yet, so what? People don't like to think that their life, or that the lives of this planet, are meaningless in some kind of greater scheme of things, but ultimately, if we nuked ourselves off the planet today, life would continue on this planet, albeit in a different form, and the orbit of this world would continue around the sun, which itself rotates within the greater galaxy known as the milky way, which itself is one of thousands upon thousands of galaxies.

We don't need to justify our existence, but neither is the fact that the universe doesn't rotate around us (notiwthstanding the fact that the Catholic Church MURDERED people who said otherwise, for centuries) mean that we shoudl throw ourselves on our collective swords.

Just humans? Or all carbon-based life? :hmmm:

[ChiefaRoo]

Personally, I see religion as a trade off. You trade some degree of your rationality for a degree of immunity from fear of death. :shrug:

JMO.

Human understanding of our place in the Universe is in its embryonic stage. We don't even know what's going on in our own Solar System much less what is going on in the parts of the existence that are hidden from our five senses. Religious people may have the core concept of our existence already figured out. It only seems ridiculous to some who dismiss religion as man has perverted the core concept with rules and regulations so as to attain control over the masses. In other words I don't believe eating fish on Friday dooms me to damnation yet I believe there is much we don't understand about our fundamental reason for existance.

[ChiefaRoo]

Well you are free to do that.. but.. you will be Punished for it..

So let me understand this. God creates mortals, designs us with free will and huge flaws and weaknesses, sets up rules which we are to live by. If we believe in God 'properly' we live life eternal in happiness, if we fail to believe in God or even if we do believe in God 'improperly' he sends us to a place where we will agonize for all eternity.

Since God is omnipotent he knew many of us would not make it so by his design countless billions are doomed not just to death but to eternal suffering.

I don't buy it. Only man would come up with such a sadistic interpretation of the creators original intent.

[Adept Havelock]

In other words I don't believe eating fish on Friday dooms me to damnation yet I believe there is much we don't understand about our fundamental reason for existance.


On both these points, we certainly do agree.


I don't buy it. Only man would come up with such a sadistic interpretation of the creators original intent.

On this one as well. The exisitence/non-exisitence of the supernatural aside, you've hit on one of my biggest quibbles with religion.

[ChiefaRoo]

On both these points, we certainly do agree.



On this one as well. The exisitence/non-exisitence of the supernatural aside, you've hit on one of my biggest quibbles with religion.

Me too. It has always troubled me.

[jAZ]

Hopefully, God knows where I'll end up.
See I'd look at the same situation and say "Hopefully my hard work will lead to fulfilling my dreams". Or "Hopefully, I can teach my son to make his dreams happen".

Whatever the case, I think meaning is very much tied to "hope".

[MOhillbilly]

If you need ANOTHER life to give THIS ONE a point, you're dumb.

whats your excuse?

[SithCeNtZ]

I think that without some kind of significance past the time when you assume room temperature, life is pretty much absurd.

If when you're dead, you're just dead and that's it - you cease to exist and are nothing, did your choices matter much? Whether you had a good life or bad, you are no longer able to feel the joy or pain of either. You could have affected other people, but they'll be dead pretty soon too and free of any consequences.

The universe is getting colder over time. Eventually, the human race will die out. When the whole species is gone, and no one is left to feel any choices that were made, what does it matter? When someday the earth is barren and uninhabited, will it matter if I decided to pay a parking ticket?

If something will eventually pass out of existence, I don't see how one can assign any eternal significance to it. It's ultimately meaningless.

You answered your own question. The purpose of life is to avoid being killed, either on a personal level or on a species level. The purpose of the individual is to help society progress to bigger and better things to avoid/delay this fate. While the individual impact is small, it all contributes toward a bigger picture.

I have no idea where you got the statement that the human race will cease to exist at some point because you have absolutely no evidence to back that up.

[Nightwish]

I'm a neopagan, and though I no longer consider myself Wiccan, strictly speaking, I still identify more strongly with that religion than with any other. I am agnostic in my approach to God. I believe in God, but I believe that all religions are man's best guess attempts (though some are probably better guesses than others) to contextualize and understand God in human terms. But despite my belief in the likelihood of God, I don't make decisions in my life based on whether I think God would approve or disapprove, whether it is what God intends, etcetera, etcetera and so forth. If it were suddenly revealed beyond any shadow of a doubt that there is, or that there is not a God, I doubt that it will significantly impact my life or the meaning I have found in it, as I doubt that any of the interpretations of God that are on the table are likely even in the ballpark.

[JBucc]

Meaning is overrated.

[patteeu]

errr....so whether life has more meaning or not is indexed to how much you think it has perpetual meaning? :spock:

Did I misread this one Pat?

Maybe I shouldn't have limited my qualification to the presence of an "afterlife."

What I meant was that I think people who believe in the idea that there is an eternal life in the presence of God probably have a bigger idea of "meaning" in their lives than those who think life ends at death. It's not so much about the fact that the afterlife is perpetual as that it can indicate a more profound existance than our mortal life offers. Similarly, I'd think that you could find more meaning in your life if you live in a society with art, literature, sports, and marriage-for-love than you could in a primitive hunter/gatherer existence where life is cheap and brutal.

[Adept Havelock]

I have no idea where you got the statement that the human race will cease to exist at some point because you have absolutely no evidence to back that up.

Well, aside from basic physics (the second law of thermodynamics, to be specifc), you are correct. :spock:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death

Maybe you can come up with a way for Humanity to survive the extinction of all baryonic life, but I doubt it. (sorry, reading too much Stephen Baxter lately) :shrug:

As I quoted in another thread earlier today:

On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.

[Baby Lee]

Where's the 'Without God, there wouldn't be a Sonic in driving distance' option?

[ChiefaRoo]

Well, aside from basic physics (the second law of thermodynamics, to be specifc), you are correct. :spock:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death

Maybe you can come up with a way for Humanity to survive the extinction of all baryonic life, but I doubt it. (sorry, reading too much Stephen Baxter lately) :shrug:

As I quoted in another thread earlier today:


AD, while what you are saying is true it's almost unthinkably far into the future. By then man may have the power to extend life in the Universe and/or have evolved beyond the need to live in a three dimenisonal universe.

[htismaqe]

Where's the 'Without God, there wouldn't be a Sonic in driving distance' option?

Excellent use of cross-thread humor.

2 points.

[jAZ]

...it can indicate a more profound existance than our mortal life offers.
You keep saying "more" but the reality is that (at least among the "evangelicals" 75+% say that life without a "God" is meaningless.

It's not an incremental improvement as you are describing here, but a binary alternative.

[sedated]

Human understanding of our place in the Universe is in its embryonic stage.... there is much we don't understand about our fundamental reason for existance.

maybe our place in the universe is just like everyone else's, we have just created this dilusional need for a higher power.

maybe there is no higher reason for existance. maybe we have no soul that will live on forever. just our mind and body.

maybe we are just big-brained monkeys

[BucEyedPea]

maybe our place in the universe is just like everyone else's, we have just created this dilusional need for a higher power.

maybe there is no higher reason for existance. maybe we have no soul that will live on forever. just our mind and body.

maybe we are just big-brained monkeys
Yes, well you are sedated right?
..and in Wonderland.

[BigCatDaddy]

I, on my own, don't really know much about God. That's why I try my best to follow the teachings of the only man to conquer death and rise from the grave.

I know many of you are put off by "religion" and I understand that since you really don't get to the heart of what Christianity is and that's because so few today reflect what it should be. It's not Jerry Falwell, Pat Roberts, Jesse Jackson, or Al Sharpton and that's how the media portrays Christians. IMO, if you want to see what Christianity is all about look at the life of Mother Theresa. That's what Christians today should be doing, not picketing or finger wagging at sinners, since we ourselves are sinners. Jesus wanted no part of politics when he walked the earth and I'm not really sure Christians today should be a part of politics. If we want to change the world and start a revolution, we need to change the hearts of man, not the laws of the land.

I really encourage those that are not Christians to read the book of Acts and listen to a respectable pastor’s commentary on it. It's what really convinced me that it's all true. Here are these apostles that deny they even know Jesus when he is captured by the Romans because of fear, yet after his resurrection there is a change in them they all end up being martyred because of their belief that he is God. I just have a hard time believing there would be such a change in these men, if they had not seen the resurrected Jesus.

[irishjayhawk]

I'm atheist and I find meaning. I don't understand why people think they're owed meaning.

[luv]

See I'd look at the same situation and say "Hopefully my hard work will lead to fulfilling my dreams". Or "Hopefully, I can teach my son to make his dreams happen".

Whatever the case, I think meaning is very much tied to "hope".
I'd say they're similar, but not necessarily interchangable. My life can have plenty of meaning as I define it. I can help others, provide for those in need, etc. But if I feel I have no hope for anything else in my life, then it would seem empty. I don't know if I'm stating my understanding or thinking as clearly as I mean to, but there it is.

Either way, I can see what you're saying.

[RealSNR]

Question: What would be so great about an afterlife?

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[htismaqe]

I don't understand why people think they're owed meaning.

That makes NO sense.

[chasedude]

interesting... agnostics in the lead only second to the atheists. From reading threads in the past I thought there'd be more bible thumpers here.

[irishjayhawk]

That makes NO sense.

Yes it does. Lots of people think "gee it would be pointless to live without eternal reward, god, religion et al." What makes them think they're owed any of that? What makes them think they're owed anything more than being another species/animal that reproduces?

[SLAG]

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[luv]

interesting... agnostics in the lead only second to the atheists. From reading threads in the past I thought there'd be more bible thumpers here.
I know my bible. It's just whether or not I choose to live by it.

[irishjayhawk]

interesting... agnostics in the lead only second to the atheists. From reading threads in the past I thought there'd be more bible thumpers here.


I too thought this.

I am interested in people's definition of atheist, however.

My definition is one who has eliminated the probability of there being a god but leaving the slim chance s/he exists. That is, an agnostic is someone who gives both claims a 50% chance of being correct. I don't. I give there being no god a 98% chance that he doesn't exist.


What do you (community) think?

[htismaqe]

Yes it does. Lots of people think "gee it would be pointless to live without eternal reward, god, religion et al." What makes them think they're owed any of that? What makes them think they're owed anything more than being another species/animal that reproduces?

You're obviously talking out of your ass.

Those people don't think they're OWED anything. The fundamental premise of the ENTIRE religion is that they have to EARN it.

[sedated]

My definition is one who has eliminated the probability of there being a god but leaving the slim chance s/he exists. That is, an agnostic is someone who gives both claims a 50% chance of being correct. I don't. I give there being no god a 98% chance that he doesn't exist.

What do you (community) think?

Atheist - No Higher Power
Agnostic - Higher Power, No Religion

Am I correct?

[irishjayhawk]

I'm talking about being owed even religion, but whatever. Agree to disagree.

[patteeu]

You keep saying "more" but the reality is that (at least among the "evangelicals" 75+% say that life without a "God" is meaningless.

It's not an incremental improvement as you are describing here, but a binary alternative.

It depends on your perspective. I can see how a believer might see all meaning coming from the presence of God. But if you had a machine that could measure the level of "meaning" a person's life has, you may well find that both the believer and the nonbeliever have a sense of meaning in their lives despite what either one of them might tell you about the other.

[luv]

Atheist - No Higher Power
Agnostic - Higher Power, No Religion

Am I correct?
That's how I see it. That doesn't necessarily make it correct though.

[irishjayhawk]

Atheist - No Higher Power
Agnostic - Higher Power, No Religion

Am I correct?

yes, but how do we interpret that?

No Higher Power can mean 100% there's not one or 98% there's not one. Some would call the latter agnostic because of the possibility.

[htismaqe]

I'm talking about being owed even religion, but whatever. Agree to disagree.

I don't disagree or agree with you.

I'm telling you that suggesting the people feel they are "owed" religion makes no sense.

[stevieray]

You can find meaning in anything you want...Why is God part of the poll?

Why not just ask what gives your life meaning?

[irishjayhawk]

You can find meaning in anything you want...Why is God part of the poll?

Why not just ask what gives your life meaning?

Because some people say God/Religion/Afterlife are the only things that give life meaning or people morals.

[stevieray]

Because some people say God/Religion/Afterlife are the only things that give life meaning or people morals.

and how is that wrong?

or is this just another bashing God thread?

[Amnorix]

We serve God in Different ways, he calls us to our own vocation, whether through marriage and having children, Being a Religious, or the single life.

we can serve God No matter how we are called..

but you are right that most people that claim to be "Catholic" think many things of the religion are over the top... they Pick and choose and hence you have Cafeteria Catholicism.. those people are NOT true Catholics...


Tom Brady's priest to Tom Brady's dad (faithful Catholics) back when his dad decided to give up going to a seminary in order to get married:

"sometimes one is called to propagate the faithful rather than to propagate the faith".

ROFL

Many people have left the reservation on Catholicism, but don't get it yet. And yet, if they truly left to join a church more in keeping iwth their views, Catholicism would be greatly weakened.

[Nightwish]

and how is that wrong?

I believe he was saying that there are some people who say that God/Religion/Afterlife are the only things that give anyone's life meaning or a moral compass, that those who say they find meaning without God are lying/full of it/deluded, etc. And that is wrong.

[irishjayhawk]

I believe he was saying that there are some people who say that God/Religion/Afterlife are the only things that give anyone's life meaning or a moral compass, that those who say they find meaning without God are lying/full of it/deluded, etc. And that is wrong.

I thought I put it like that, but thanks for clarifying.

[HolyHandgernade]

I. Theories on the Spiritual Basis of the Universe:
A. The Spiritual Basis of the Universe is incorporated in a Conscious, Sentient “God”
B. The Spiritual Basis of the Universe is incorporated in the Fabric of the Universe itself
C. There is no spiritual basis in the Universe, only coincidence.
-------------------------------------------------
II. Theories on the Human relationship with the Universe:
1. Human beings can access the energy of the Spiritual Basis of the Universe
2. Human beings can not access the energy of the Spiritual Basis of the Universe
-------------------------------------------------
III. Effect of the Above Theories Combined:
A. 1. = Theism
A. 2. = Deism
B. 1. = Pantheism
B. 2. = Pandeism
C. 1. = (not a possible option)
C. 2. = Atheism

[Amnorix]

Atheist - No Higher Power
Agnostic - Higher Power, No Religion

Am I correct?


The way I've heard it is:

Atheist: there is no God or other higher power

Agnostic: The existence of God is neither known, nor knowable.

the ancillary on the agnostic that is unspoken is "and who cares, it's a silly debate to begin with".

I tend to fall into agnostic, but if the definition others are ascribing is correct, then I might be atheist. Suffice to say that I find the possibility that God exists to be exceedingly unlikely.

I'd describe my religous beliefs as "who cares if there is a God -- if there is one, he hardly wants a bunch of insignificant carbon-based lifeforms to eat a wafer every week, or bow towards Mecca three times a day, and either way, it's a big waste of time to do that junk."

:)

[KcMizzou]

The way I've heard it is:

Atheist: there is no God or other higher power

Agnostic: The existence of God is neither known, nor knowable.

:)That's always been my understanding as well.

[Nightwish]

I. Theories on the Spiritual Basis of the Universe:
A. The Spiritual Basis of the Universe is incorporated in a Conscious, Sentient “God”
B. The Spiritual Basis of the Universe is incorporated in the Fabric of the Universe itself
C. There is no spiritual basis in the Universe, only coincidence.
-------------------------------------------------
II. Theories on the Human relationship with the Universe:
1. Human beings can access the energy of the Spiritual Basis of the Universe
2. Human beings can not access the energy of the Spiritual Basis of the Universe
-------------------------------------------------
III. Effect of the Above Theories Combined:
A. 1. = Theism
A. 2. = Deism
B. 1. = Pantheism
B. 2. = Pandeism
C. 1. = (not a possible option)
C. 2. = Atheism
A&B. 2. = Panentheism (that's me)

[Hammock Parties]

Not surprising that so many Chiefs fans don't believe in a higher power. :shake:

[HolyHandgernade]

That's a very simplistic chart I lifted from another essay. There are other possibilities which include panentheism and panendeism, which maintain that the universe is part of god but not all of god.

Personally, I see the difference between deism and theism as the emphasis on a personal versus transpersonal conception of god. There are no clear cut edges to this, but rather, a preponderance towards one or the other.

Alos, agnosticism is an epistimological descriptor rather than a real classification in itself specifying what type of evidence is allowed. So there can be agnostic theists, agnostic deists and agnostic atheists.

-HH

[Nightwish]

That's a very simplistic chart I lifted from another essay. There are other possibilities which include panentheism and panendeism, which maintain that the universe is part of god but not all of god.

Personally, I see the difference between deism and theism as the emphasis on a personal versus transpersonal conception of god. There are no clear cut edges to this, but rather, a preponderance towards one or the other.

Alos, agnosticism is an epistimological descriptor rather than a real classification in itself specifying what type of evidence is allowed. So there can be agnostic theists, agnostic deists and agnostic atheists.

-HH
From all that I've read on Deism, it appears that there was more than one framework known as Deism. The most well-known, at least to Americans (because it was famously embraced by a number of our founding fathers) was the idea that God basically created everything and set it in motion, but beyond that point, simply lets things unfold as they will, not interfering any further with Creation. Another form of Deism, which was actually more widespread (the Founding Fathers' brand of Deism was actually viewed as a fringe belief among Deists), held that there was definitely a divine hand that created everything in the universe, but that the question of ultimate Truth was parcelled out to all religions, such that all religions were right about some things and wrong about others, so that no religion was the exclusive or primary arbiter of Truth. A similar form is what some people alternately call agnostic theism or "soft agnosticism" (there is, or probably is a God, but its nature, personality and characteristics are beyond human understanding). I've never heard of agnostic deism, unless that's the new term for the original form of Deism I described above.

[SLAG]

Tom Brady's priest to Tom Brady's dad (faithful Catholics) back when his dad decided to give up going to a seminary in order to get married:

"sometimes one is called to propagate the faithful rather than to propagate the faith".

ROFL

Many people have left the reservation on Catholicism, but don't get it yet. And yet, if they truly left to join a church more in keeping iwth their views, Catholicism would be greatly weakened.


Thats a Great Quote...

I do wish people that had their own views would succumb to Rome as a good Catholic should. You state if they left that Catholicism would be weakened but i would stay that it while the actual number of Catholics would decrease the actual true faith of Catholicism would be strengthened as there would not be people picking and choosing what to agree with or not.

[Simplex3]

In the grand scheme of things sure it is pointless without a God or some sort of afterlife judgement. If you just live, then die and are never heard of or thought of again where is the meaning? What is the point? What is the purpose?
1. If you do good in this life future generations WILL think of you again.

2. Just spending the time you have with the people you love isn't enough for you?

[Simplex3]

I think that without some kind of significance past the time when you assume room temperature, life is pretty much absurd.

If when you're dead, you're just dead and that's it - you cease to exist and are nothing, did your choices matter much? Whether you had a good life or bad, you are no longer able to feel the joy or pain of either. You could have affected other people, but they'll be dead pretty soon too and free of any consequences.

The universe is getting colder over time. Eventually, the human race will die out. When the whole species is gone, and no one is left to feel any choices that were made, what does it matter? When someday the earth is barren and uninhabited, will it matter if I decided to pay a parking ticket?

If something will eventually pass out of existence, I don't see how one can assign any eternal significance to it. It's ultimately meaningless.
Welcome to being a Buddhist.

[Simplex3]

I can just flip that around. You say that people want to believe in religion to feel more comfortable with death, but I think that many people don't want to believe there is a God, because if there is one then they might face consequences for their choices someday, and they don't want to be burdened by anyone judging them.

They believe life is essentially just a momentary pursuit of their own erotic desires without consequences, as Aldous Huxley was willing to freely admit, and so they are initially biased against the belief, because it would require them to change their lifestyle or at least make them feel guilty about it. Pleasure is the only thing that's important, with a close second being making sure that nothing makes you feel bad about the former.

If there's no ultimate significance to life then I couldn't disagree with that viewpoint.
Poppycock. Many of the atheists I know are better Christians than some of the Christians I know.

[Simplex3]

As a Catholic the Meaning of life is to Know God, To Love God, and To serve him in this life and be happy with him in the next.

God still loves those that choose not to love him, but the butthole pleasures of this world will be the only reward they will ever know.
Crap, and here I thought I was pretty happy. :shrug:

[luv]

Poppycock.
There's a word people don't use a whole lot.

[Hammock Parties]

It is a fun word. Almost as fun as 'balderdash.'

[RealSNR]

It is a fun word. Almost as fun as 'balderdash.''Balderdash' is pretty fun, but not quite as fun as 'brouhaha'.

[Simplex3]

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[RealSNR]

And neither of them are as fun or as dirty as 'cunnilingus' which is both fun to say and... well, you know.

[Simplex3]

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[Hammock Parties]

'Balderdash' is pretty fun, but not quite as fun as 'brouhaha'.

Neither are as fun as "codswallop."

[Iowanian]

NOthing like a good Christian Bashing thread.....


I won't speak for anyone else's life on this topic, but its important to mine.

I don't know about a life being meaningless....but an Afterlife sure would be.

[luv]

Have you ever noticed that funny words like poppycock are more fun to say with a British accent? Actually, I don't think I could say that word without using the accent.

[Simplex3]

NOthing like a good Christian Bashing thread.....


I won't speak for anyone else's life on this topic, but its important to mine.

I don't know about a life being meaningless....but an Afterlife sure would be.
Climb down off the cross. Nobody is bashing Christians.



:D

[greg63]

[My]Life is meaningless without God -- I’m Christian (Protestant, Evangelical)

[BWillie]

I really don't understand why people think life has a meaning. The ONLY thing the universe is "trying" to achieve is reaching the heat death of the universe. Once all energy is evenly dispersed and all the free energy is used up,..nothing will ever occur again, ever. That is the goal of "life". That is really it. Who cares if life has meaning, just have a good time, it's not like you have any freewill anyway

Where is the life is meaningless with or without a god portion of the poll?

[stevieray]

it's not like you have any freewill anyway

says the guy who just chose to reply to this topic...;)

[HolyHandgernade]

From all that I've read on Deism, it appears that there was more than one framework known as Deism. The most well-known, at least to Americans (because it was famously embraced by a number of our founding fathers) was the idea that God basically created everything and set it in motion, but beyond that point, simply lets things unfold as they will, not interfering any further with Creation. Another form of Deism, which was actually more widespread (the Founding Fathers' brand of Deism was actually viewed as a fringe belief among Deists), held that there was definitely a divine hand that created everything in the universe, but that the question of ultimate Truth was parcelled out to all religions, such that all religions were right about some things and wrong about others, so that no religion was the exclusive or primary arbiter of Truth. A similar form is what some people alternately call agnostic theism or "soft agnosticism" (there is, or probably is a God, but its nature, personality and characteristics are beyond human understanding). I've never heard of agnostic deism, unless that's the new term for the original form of Deism I described above.

Actually, the Deism you describe is more consistent with French Deism, which is basically pandeism. Most of the Founding Fathers were a hybrid between English Deism and French Deism. The focus for Colonial American Deism was more on virtue, especially Liberty. The Deist believed that Liberty was of Deity, therefore, the best way to honor Deity was to exercise one's individual liberty. One could extend this to Reason and Justice.

The Colonials were actually not very expressive in their thoughts of man's relation to the Deity, considering it a question of one's own conscience. For example, Franklin moved into a more pragmatic version of Deism, Jefferson was all over the place, Adams considered himself a Christian of his own sect. But none of them hint at the common dictionary definition.

Like I said, "agnostic" is an epistempological descriptor, so one could apply it to any of the three broad categories. Agnostic means "without gnosis". Gnosis was "knowledge of the divine" or "secret knowledge" or "contemplative knowledge". For such a person, belief is no longer required because knowledge of the situation has been attained. So, for most people, saying they are an "agnostic anything" is really sort of redundant since most people do not claim a knowledge that god exists, just a belief or faith.

-HH

[BWillie]

says the guy who just chose to reply to this topic...;)

I cannot control my own actions though. This conversation I'm having and me typing on Chiefsplanet was going to happen and always was going to happen. You have virtual will, everyone thinks they can control what they are doing, but albeit this is not true. Everything in life can be explained by a complex equation if you knew every single variable within the universe.

Think about it this way. If you know every single variable and all information in a airtight room. You know the rate of gravity, air temperature, humidity, etc. Now if you drop a ball off of a ladder you will know exactly where that ball will land. Do you know what that is? It's predicting the future. The same thing goes for life. A lof of you will say, oh that wouldn't make up for human thought and feelings. It does actually, everything you do all the feelings you feel are just electrical impulses in your brain. That is all, no more no less.

[HolyHandgernade]

I cannot control my own actions though. This conversation I'm having and me typing on Chiefsplanet was going to happen and always was going to happen. You have virtual will, everyone thinks they can control what they are doing, but albeit this is not true. Everything in life can be explained by a complex equation if you knew every single variable within the universe.

Think about it this way. If you know every single variable and all information in a airtight room. You know the rate of gravity, air temperature, humidity, etc. Now if you drop a ball off of a ladder you will know exactly where that ball will land. Do you know what that is? It's predicting the future. The same thing goes for life. A lof of you will say, oh that wouldn't make up for human thought and feelings. It does actually, everything you do all the feelings you feel are just electrical impulses in your brain. That is all, no more no less.

That's assuming a Newtonian view of the universe on a macro scale, quantum mechanics say this isn't what happens at all.

-TC

[stevieray]

I cannot control my own actions though.

if this were true, there would be no consequences for your actons.

[BWillie]

That's assuming a Newtonian view of the universe on a macro scale, quantum mechanics say this isn't what happens at all.

-TC

Yes, but these are all theories. Nothing can be completely and accurately proven. All we know is that we don't know, and never will know. For all we know, your brain could be hooked up to a machine and everything your doing could be mimicked...sounds sci fi but not out of the realm of possibilities.

[HolyHandgernade]

True, but we have to decide what is most probable, which is really what QM says. There are actually many possibilities that end up collapsing on a probability.

I prefer to think of the cosmos as containing both depth and span. I think it makes more sense to me that there is an "unmanifest blueprint" of increasing depth that allows the parameters for evolution from matter to life to mind to soul to spirit. The more fundamental (closer to physics) a particular aspect is, the more it appears to be "determined" and as we evolve in depth, the more "free will" one attains. But your never really rid of one and all the other, its like an inverse relationship. My mind may have more free will than my head, but if I fall off a cliff, that mind is going down with me!

-HH

[Amnorix]

Thats a Great Quote...

I do wish people that had their own views would succumb to Rome as a good Catholic should. You state if they left that Catholicism would be weakened but i would stay that it while the actual number of Catholics would decrease the actual true faith of Catholicism would be strengthened as there would not be people picking and choosing what to agree with or not.

Seriously, half of the Catholic churches would need to shut their doors, Catholic schools would close, etc. etc.

There is strength in numbers when it comes to matters such as this. The influence of the Catholic church is based on their being the oldest, richest and most populous of the western Christian religions. I'm sure you'd be happy if the "heretics" would just leave, but cafeteria Catholics are a huge percentage of the flock here in the US.

Stated differently, if you suddenly had a flock only half as big, then you are a much less impressive shepherd, no? :)

[DaFace]

Damn...there are a lot more heathens on this board than I thought! ;)

[Bwana]

Gaz.............bitch.

[ChiefaRoo]

Yes, but these are all theories. Nothing can be completely and accurately proven. All we know is that we don't know, and never will know. For all we know, your brain could be hooked up to a machine and everything your doing could be mimicked...sounds sci fi but not out of the realm of possibilities.

I've wondered lately if the whole "Matrix" view of God and life has any merit. Maybe we are the result of some type of sentient technology that started as a machine. The creator then built a Universe for us to experience our lives in and for his own amusement and study. We in turn will continue to evolve and create our own technology until we get to the point where we will give rise to a new sentient lifeform which lives in what we would today call a virtual reality (universe) and the process then is repeated over and over in a chain of universes linked by different creators and creations. If that were true one day humanity would be both the "creation" and the "creator" and everything would come full circle as we would become a full link in the chain of life.

[Slick32]

The right choice isn't there so I can't vote.

[SLAG]

Seriously, half of the Catholic churches would need to shut their doors, Catholic schools would close, etc. etc.

There is strength in numbers when it comes to matters such as this. The influence of the Catholic church is based on their being the oldest, richest and most populous of the western Christian religions. I'm sure you'd be happy if the "heretics" would just leave, but cafeteria Catholics are a huge percentage of the flock here in the US.

Stated differently, if you suddenly had a flock only half as big, then you are a much less impressive shepherd, no? :)


Well im not sure the strength in numbers applies,

while it is sad that most of the Catholic faithful in the US are cafeteria Catholics, they are really more protestant than anyone else...

the point of being "Catholic" is that people SHOULD know exactly where you stand.. you shouldn't have to say,"I'm "Catholic" but i think divorced people should be allowed the Most Holy Eucharist"... because then you could be close to committing official heresy... being Catholic one would know EXACTLY where one stood on just about anything.

I feel that Vatican II was too liberally interpreted by these homosexual perverts that intentionally entered the seminary to prey on little boys... then you end up with half ass catechises.. and people leaving in droves because of all the bad publicity... but worst of all mis guided SOULS.

The truth IMHO always wins out but also, Quality is more important than quantity in these things.

[ChiefaRoo]

Well im not sure the strength in numbers applies,

while it is sad that most of the Catholic faithful in the US are cafeteria Catholics, they are really more protestant than anyone else...

the point of being "Catholic" is that people SHOULD know exactly where you stand.. you shouldn't have to say,"I'm "Catholic" but i think divorced people should be allowed the Most Holy Eucharist"... because then you could be close to committing official heresy... being Catholic one would know EXACTLY where one stood on just about anything.

I feel that Vatican II was too liberally interpreted by these homosexual perverts that intentionally entered the seminary to prey on little boys... then you end up with half ass catechises.. and people leaving in droves because of all the bad publicity... but worst of all mis guided SOULS.

The truth IMHO always wins out but also, Quality is more important than quantity in these things.


CATHOLIC TOWN
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[sd4chiefs]

Damn...there are a lot more heathens on this board than I thought! ;)

And no Jewish people. :hmmm:

[sd4chiefs]

And no Jewish people. :hmmm:

I wonder why there is no jewish Chief fans. Do they know something that we don't?

[sd4chiefs]

You left out Mormons in your pole. There are a lot of Mormons in California. They always seem to slip under the radar. I wonder what they are up too. Do they have some kind of master plan?

[Logical]

For Chiefs fans with or without a God as long as Carl is in charge life has no meaning.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

You left out Mormons in your pole. There are a lot of Mormons in California. They always seem to slip under the radar. I wonder what they are up too. Do they have some kind of master plan?


Not since the plates theory went out the window.

[L.A. Chieffan]

Just get high.

[RedThat]

Well Jaz,

I'd be glad to offer you my 2 cents worth?

I would like to start off by saying, I do believe in the LORD. I think life without the LORD our God is meaningless. And the reason I say that is, because as one of his children I am a firm believer in living our lives through Christ, but with him, comes a true sense of wisdom and understanding.

I think that right there, shape us and lead us in the right path on how to live your life the right way. The way God wants you live.

A LOT of human beings these days don't have enough wisdom. Don't have enough understanding on how to live the right way, and as a consequence they suffer. It's a common thing that I see happen all the time. And I STRONGLY am convinced wisdom is the key to living your life, and that comes from God.

[Logical]

I am just wondering what Life's meaning is, being as all the respondents seem to know.

[keg in kc]

I am just wondering what Life's meaning is, being as all the respondents seem to know.Whoever collects the most toys wins. Or was that medicine bottles.

[ChiefaRoo]

Well Jaz,

I'd be glad to offer you my 2 cents worth?

I would like to start off by saying, I do believe in the LORD. I think life without the LORD our God is meaningless. And the reason I say that is, because as one of his children I am a firm believer in living our lives through Christ, but with him, comes a true sense of wisdom and understanding.

I think that right there, shape us and lead us in the right path on how to live your life the right way. The way God wants you live.

A LOT of human beings these days don't have enough wisdom. Don't have enough understanding on how to live the right way, and as a consequence they suffer. It's a common thing that I see happen all the time. And I STRONGLY am convinced wisdom is the key to living your life, and that comes from God.

How does it come from God exactly? How do you personally receive your wisdom? I'm really curious and would appreciate a straight answer.

[luv]

I am just wondering what Life's meaning is, being as all the respondents seem to know.
Every person probably has a different answer to that. It really depends on what you consider as having meaning. Each of us would know that for ourselves. I don't think there is one definitive answer.

[greg63]

Every person probably has a different answer to that. It really depends on what you consider as having meaning. Each of us would know that for ourselves. I don't think there is one definitive answer.

Exactly; I think it all comes down to what you value most is what defines you and thus what gives life meaning for you.

[htismaqe]

I believe he was saying that there are some people who say that God/Religion/Afterlife are the only things that give anyone's life meaning or a moral compass, that those who say they find meaning without God are lying/full of it/deluded, etc. And that is wrong.

How is that anymore wrong that the people who say there is no God/Religion/Afterlife telling those that find meaning from it that they are lying/full of it/deluded?

[boogblaster]

By-laws of life...you take one path or another...at least here you have a choice......

[Easy 6]

I've wondered lately if the whole "Matrix" view of God and life has any merit. Maybe we are the result of some type of sentient technology that started as a machine. The creator then built a Universe for us to experience our lives in and for his own amusement and study. We in turn will continue to evolve and create our own technology until we get to the point where we will give rise to a new sentient lifeform which lives in what we would today call a virtual reality (universe) and the process then is repeated over and over in a chain of universes linked by different creators and creations. If that were true one day humanity would be both the "creation" and the "creator" and everything would come full circle as we would become a full link in the chain of life.

They're coming for you Neo...

[Mr. Kotter]

How is that anymore wrong that the people who say there is no God/Religion/Afterlife telling those that find meaning from it that they are lying/full of it/deluded?

It isn't.

It's just another example of leftist/secularist/liberal hypocrisy.

[Mr. Kotter]

I am just wondering what Life's meaning is, being as all the respondents seem to know.
Some (not me) have said....

"I feel that life's a game, you sometimes win or lose / And though I may be down right now, at least I don't work for Jews".

"The world is a beautiful place. You must try and make everyone happy, and bring peace and content with you everywhere you go. And so I became a waiter... well, it's not much of a philosophy I know, but well...[screw] you, I can live my own life in my own way if I want to- [screw] off."

[RedThat]

How does it come from God exactly? How do you personally receive your wisdom? I'm really curious and would appreciate a straight answer.

I can see that you're curious...lol

Ok no problem, I'll try my best to answer your question, but I don't really think I can give you a specific answer. sorry.

I'll start off by asking, Do you read the bible? Because if you do, there is a lot of wisdom express throughout the bible. And it is all true.

For example, if you read the book of Exodus, that was during the time when God freed the Israelites out of Egypt from slavery. Well, during that time when they were on Mount sinai, God presented Moses with the 10 commandments on how the Israelites should live. Not just the israelites, but even us. That's just an example of God setting his law to his people.

That can be looked upon as Wisdom. Obeying and understanding the 10 commandments. Mind you, this just an example. but throughout the Bible there is a lot of Wisdom expressed. If you read the book of Proverbs, there is a whole ton of wisdom in that book. Also, Psalms expresses a lot of truth, and wisdom. Ecclesiates will show you a lot.

Best thing to do, is just read the bible. Seriously. That is the best thing I can tell you. Place God first in your life, remember him in everything you do and he will show you the right way. The bible even tells you that. It's important to have a strong faith. Believing.

*When Jesus came and died for our sins, he is also known as the Messiah. Which means messenger of God. Jesus was also known as a teacher in our time. All of what Jesus taught is also a way of how we should live according to God. It is all in there. Everything is in the scripture. I really really encourage you to read the bible. Seriously, you'll be a better person for it.

[wazu]

I'm Catholic, but I would think that if there were no God, life would have even more meaning.

[tiptap]

I can see that you're curious...lol

Ok no problem, I'll try my best to answer your question, but I don't really think I can give you a specific answer. sorry.

I'll start off by asking, Do you read the bible? Because if you do, there is a lot of wisdom express throughout the bible. And it is all true.

For example, if you read the book of Exodus, that was during the time when God freed the Israelites out of Egypt from slavery. Well, during that time when they were on Mount sinai, God presented Moses with the 10 commandments on how the Israelites should live. Not just the israelites, but even us. That's just an example of God setting his law to his people.

That can be looked upon as Wisdom. Obeying and understanding the 10 commandments. Mind you, this just an example. but throughout the Bible there is a lot of Wisdom expressed. If you read the book of Proverbs, there is a whole ton of wisdom in that book. Also, Psalms expresses a lot of truth, and wisdom. Ecclesiates will show you a lot.

Best thing to do, is just read the bible. Seriously. That is the best thing I can tell you. Place God first in your life, remember him in everything you do and he will show you the right way. The bible even tells you that. It's important to have a strong faith. Believing.

*When Jesus came and died for our sins, he is also known as the Messiah. Which means messenger of God. Jesus was also known as a teacher in our time. All of what Jesus taught is also a way of how we should live according to God. It is all in there. Everything is in the scripture. I really really encourage you to read the bible. Seriously, you'll be a better person for it.

When I was 14 the Revivalist embarrassed out Pastor's wife by asking the group of teenages how many of us had read the Bible through. Will I decided right then to read the Bible straight through. It was the beginning of the end of my confidence in the literal veracity of the Bible. So be careful what you wish for. It was a bit surprising to see the Genesis story told twice and this duplication of stories continued through the book. The rules about slavery, the South was right that the Bible condones slavery. The viciousness of killing by early Israelites in displacing existing people. The human sacrifice usually local men, women and children but did occassionally include jewish girls. New Testament quandries such as why Paul and his disciples writings dominate the New Testament since none of them met the man Jesus of Nazareth. This does not include assessing the miracles related by both Old and New Testament. I am just relaying this to let you know that your answer doesn't always work out best in supporting a diety.
I do think meditating, and I think that is what one gets with reflection on Bible teachings and prayer, allows the mind to be in a state that helps allow reasoning and judgement about behavior to be contemplated and derive comfort in those assessments. I know that you believe in some higher purpose directing your behavior and what I say doesn't support that. I do support your freedom to continue to worship as you wish.

[irishjayhawk]

How is that anymore wrong that the people who say there is no God/Religion/Afterlife telling those that find meaning from it that they are lying/full of it/deluded?

It's not. However, the same is not true if he merely omits meaning and goes with moral compass. It is wrong for people to say that God/Religion/etc are the only way to finding morals and one cannot be a moral person without them. I'm not suggesting people here, specifically, are suggesting this but it is very present in society.


It isn't.

It's just another example of leftist/secularist/liberal hypocrisy.

Why is everything an example of this? (Maybe I misread it and it's actually sarcastic. I hope.)

[BigCatDaddy]

When I was 14 the Revivalist embarrassed out Pastor's wife by asking the group of teenages how many of us had read the Bible through. Will I decided right then to read the Bible straight through. It was the beginning of the end of my confidence in the literal veracity of the Bible. So be careful what you wish for. It was a bit surprising to see the Genesis story told twice and this duplication of stories continued through the book. The rules about slavery, the South was right that the Bible condones slavery. The viciousness of killing by early Israelites in displacing existing people. The human sacrifice usually local men, women and children but did occassionally include jewish girls. New Testament quandries such as why Paul and his disciples writings dominate the New Testament since none of them met the man Jesus of Nazareth. This does not include assessing the miracles related by both Old and New Testament. I am just relaying this to let you know that your answer doesn't always work out best in supporting a diety.
I do think meditating, and I think that is what one gets with reflection on Bible teachings and prayer, allows the mind to be in a state that helps allow reasoning and judgement about behavior to be contemplated and derive comfort in those assessments. I know that you believe in some higher purpose directing your behavior and what I say doesn't support that. I do support your freedom to continue to worship as you wish.

This is why it's good to have a knowlegable pastor guide you through the bible. The slaves of the Jews were "debt slaves" and not slaves as in the sense you think of as African Americans were in the 1800's. They worked to pay off a debt that they owed.

Also Paul's story is more compelling. He was the biggest critic of Christians and also oversaw the death of the first Christian Martyr in Steven. It was is life's missions do see that all Christians were put to death and it was his encounter with Jesus that lead him to the truth and he became the greatest Christian to probably ever live.

You just need someone to help you understand the context of what you are reading. That's what pastors are for.

[ChiefaRoo]

This is why it's good to have a knowlegable pastor guide you through the bible. The slaves of the Jews were "debt slaves" and not slaves as in the sense you think of as African Americans were in the 1800's. They worked to pay off a debt that they owed.

Also Paul's story is more compelling. He was the biggest critic of Christians and also oversaw the death of the first Christian Martyr in Steven. It was is life's missions do see that all Christians were put to death and it was his encounter with Jesus that lead him to the truth and he became the greatest Christian to probably ever live.

You just need someone to help you understand the context of what you are reading. That's what pastors are for.

That would seem to put a lot of power in the hands of a pastor. I personally put my faith in God but man? NO WAY.

[Easy 6]

I honestly feel sorry for those who think this is all a grand science experiment.

The beauty of life & my personal God, Jesus Christ, is present from the most mundane to the most intricate & complex layers of life.

I am drunk as sin right now, but have NO doubt in my mind about my creator...theres a story i want to tell to this effect but i need to be sober, to give it its proper respect.

Miracles have been worked on me, real, life saving shite.

[ChiefaRoo]

I honestly feel sorry for those who think this is all a grand science experiment.

The beauty of life & my personal God, Jesus Christ, is present from the most mundane to the most intricate & complex layers of life.

I am drunk as sin right now, but have NO doubt in my mind about my creator...theres a story i want to tell to this effect but i need to be sober, to give it its proper respect.

Miracles have been worked on me, real, life saving shite.

That's actually a pretty cool thing if that has happened to you on a personal level.

[sedated]

I think life without the LORD our God is meaningless... shape us and lead us in the right path on how to live your life the right way. The way God wants you live.

your family, friends, children, everyone you care about...are meaningless without a higher power. people we care about can be a reason to live the best way you can, withut being judged by an invisible man (or men)

A LOT of human beings these days don't have enough wisdom. Don't have enough understanding on how to live the right way... and that comes from God.

those child-molesting priests must have quite the understanding

[sedated]

theres a story i want to tell to this effect but i need to be sober, to give it its proper respect.

Miracles have been worked on me, real, life saving shite.


i am still waiting for something like this to happen, but it hasn't.

every 'miracle' in my life can be explained, in my mind, by scientific fact.

but i still feel that there's something i might be missing out on. its just got to get passed all this logic.

[Easy 6]

That's actually a pretty cool thing if that has happened to you on a personal level.

I dont feel like i have the mental faculties to give the story its rightful due at this point, suffice it to say, i beat cancer & its associated symptoms in a purely miraculous way.

Cancerous lesions gone...OVERNIGHT...something thousands of $$$'s worth of doc visits failed to accomplish...overnight...

People can curse him if they choose, but what happened to me doesnt happen very often...i didnt believe it at first.

It sounds SO corny...but Life IS Beautiful.

[sedated]

I beat cancer & its associated symptoms in a purely miraculous way.

Cancerous lesions gone...OVERNIGHT...something thousands of $$$'s worth of doc visits failed to accomplish...overnight...

goddamm. congrats. you can really feel like there's something looking out for you.

It sounds SO corny...but Life IS Beautiful.

nothing corny/fake/presumptuous about it if you've seriously felt the touch of god(s). some of us just never have, which makes it tougher to accept.

but that's great for you.

[Rausch]

I don't know that I've found God but I've found faith.

I don't have to check a box on religon or preach my beliefs to anyone but I have faith. I'm not even sure with what, or whom, at this point, but I do.

I've reached a point in my life where helping others is more rewarding than entertaing myself. It's late in life, but hey, some of us are slow learners.

I love my wife and I love my kids, and my step-kids. And I'll admit that if they weren't forced upon me by the circumstances of life I wouldn't be here. I blindly stumbled upon happiness.

I don't go to church. I don't have a faith. I'm not looking for one.

But I have faith. I have an overwhelming belief that somehow everything will work out in the end.

[sedated]

From Wikipedia:

Atheism
As a philosophical view, atheism can refer to the belief in the nonexistence of gods,[1] or to the rejection of theism.[2] In its broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of gods, sometimes called nontheism.[3] Although atheists are commonly assumed to be irreligious, some religions, such as Buddhism, have been characterized as atheistic.[4][5]

Many self-described atheists share common skeptical concerns regarding supernatural claims, citing a lack of empirical evidence for the existence of deities. Other arguments for atheism are philosophical, social or historical. Although many self-described atheists tend toward secular philosophies such as humanism,[6] rationalism, and naturalism,[7] there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere.[8]

The term atheism originated as a pejorative epithet applied to any person or belief in conflict with established religion. With the spread of freethought, scientific skepticism, and criticism of religion, the term began to gather a more specific meaning and was sometimes used to describe oneself.

Agnosticism (from the Greek a, meaning "without", and Gnosticism or gnosis, meaning knowledge) means unknowable, and is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims—particularly theological claims regarding metaphysics, afterlife or the existence of God, god(s), or deities—is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently unknowable.

Agnostics claim either that it is not possible to have absolute or certain knowledge of God or gods; or, alternatively, that while certainty may be possible, they personally have no knowledge. Agnosticism in both cases involves some form of skepticism.

Demographic research services normally list agnostics in the same category as atheists and non-religious people,[1] although this can be misleading depending on the number of agnostic theists who identify themselves first as agnostics and second as followers of a particular religion.

[luv]

I don't know that I've found God but I've found faith.

I don't have to check a box on religon or preach my beliefs to anyone but I have faith. I'm not even sure with what, or whom, at this point, but I do.

I've reached a point in my life where helping others is more rewarding than entertaing myself. It's late in life, but hey, some of us are slow learners.

I love my wife and I love my kids, and my step-kids. And I'll admit that if they weren't forced upon me by the circumstances of life I wouldn't be here. I blindly stumbled upon happiness.

I don't go to church. I don't have a faith. I'm not looking for one.

But I have faith. I have an overwhelming belief that somehow everything will work out in the end.
:clap:

[Simplex3]

This is why it's good to have a knowlegable pastor guide you through the bible....

You just need someone to help you understand the context of what you are reading. That's what pastors are for.
Please don't take offense, but here's how this translates in my mind:

"You can't figure it out, you need someone smarter to explain it to you."

...and here's what that MEANS to me:

"Yeah, our story has some issues so we need people to explain it to you. Kind of like a lawyer. Someone to take it and present it in just such a way that it looks good for us."

I've read the Bible, cover to cover. I wasn't all that impressed. I was even less impressed when I found out how many times it had been "filtered" by men who never had any first hand knowledge of the people, events, and frequently the places, that are in the Bible.

[BigCatDaddy]

"You can't figure it out, you need someone smarter to explain it to you."


Well typically someone has has given a life devoted to studying the bible will have more insight to the passages. They can open your eyes to things you never realized or seen in the verses. You can spend days just disecting 1 chapter of the bible. There is just so much more there there what you read on the surface.

[Herzig]

I couldn't check a box on this because I believe all monotheistic religions have the same God.

But if I HAD to check one....I am Catholic

[BigCatDaddy]

I couldn't check a box on this because I believe all monotheistic religions have the same God.

But if I HAD to check one....I am Catholic


So you think Muslims have the same God?

[tiptap]

This is why it's good to have a knowlegable pastor guide you through the bible. The slaves of the Jews were "debt slaves" and not slaves as in the sense you think of as African Americans were in the 1800's. They worked to pay off a debt that they owed.

Also Paul's story is more compelling. He was the biggest critic of Christians and also oversaw the death of the first Christian Martyr in Steven. It was is life's missions do see that all Christians were put to death and it was his encounter with Jesus that lead him to the truth and he became the greatest Christian to probably ever live.

You just need someone to help you understand the context of what you are reading. That's what pastors are for.

Then the understanding comes not from God and the words of the Bible but from the interpretation of one's pastor. That is why the Jews have the Talamud so that the correct reading of the OT takes place. And that is why the Moslems have their Mullah's with their readings of the Koran. And on and on. Truth needs to be a little more in evidence and more accountable.

Yeah I totally agree it was a mistake to have dared me to read the Bible on my own when I was 14.

As far as Paul is concern, it is all of his literate disciples that for the most part wrote down the teachings of Paul as much as any teachings of Jesus. Mark, Luke (derivatively Matthew) and Paul directly pushed the notion of the Risen Christ, always invoked early in Paul's epistles because it was a totally different teaching than found amoung Jesus' disciples who for the most part were functionally illiterate. So what got written down and what appealed to gentiles was the teaching of Paul who came from what is now Turkey.

[tiptap]

Just to elaborate, I do think Paul was duped by the Jerusalem crowd into presecuting Christians and when he saw them for himself he felt quilty about that. (Paul gave that story to Luke) And Paul did have a guilt driven vision. He was overall a good man. Bad theology.

[BigCatDaddy]

Then the understanding comes not from God and the words of the Bible but from the interpretation of one's pastor. That is why the Jews have the Talamud so that the correct reading of the OT takes place. And that is why the Moslems have their Mullah's with their readings of the Koran. And on and on. Truth needs to be a little more in evidence and more accountable.

Yeah I totally agree it was a mistake to have dared me to read the Bible on my own when I was 14.

As far as Paul is concern, it is all of his literate disciples that for the most part wrote down the teachings of Paul as much as any teachings of Jesus. Mark, Luke (derivatively Matthew) and Paul directly pushed the notion of the Risen Christ, always invoked early in Paul's epistles because it was a totally different teaching than found amoung Jesus' disciples who for the most part were functionally illiterate. So what got written down and what appealed to gentiles was the teaching of Paul who came from what is now Turkey.

And I believe that is where providence comes into play. God will place certain Pastors, guides, or fellow believers in your life to help you. This is why the Gospel of John is my favorite and the one that everyone should start with.

Nah, I read the bible when I was about that age also. I don't regret it other then wishing it hadn't been the Old King James version. I didn't comprehend half of what I read.

You just have to open your heart to the possiblity the God uses people in this way. Not everything is how man is understandable by man, if it was then I would have to wonder "Who made who".

[Herzig]

So you think Muslims have the same God?

Yes....even though this is not the stance of the Catholic Church.

Most muslims are good people. Extreme muslims have twisted their religion and the world perception of their religion. I believe that people worship God in the way that is best for them.

I will never tell anyone that MY way of worshiping God is BEST for THEM!

[BigCatDaddy]

And Paul did have a guilt driven vision.

So you believe that his hearing the voice of God and going blind was caused by guilt? And him seeking and finding the man that was to restore his vision can be explained by having a guilty conscious?

[BigCatDaddy]

Yes....even though this is not the stance of the Catholic Church.


So they worship God the father, Son and Holy spirit all wrapped up into 1 trinity?

[tiptap]

So you believe that his hearing the voice of God and going blind was caused by guilt? And him seeking and finding the man that was to restore his vision can be explained by having a guilty conscious?

Let's see I go out an oversee the stoning as an official of the Priests (peculiar since we have this statement that Jews can't put a man to death and that is why the Priests had to deliver Jesus to the Romans) and I find truly good and noble men like Stephen (who delivered upon the moral teachings of Jesus also even to death) and becuase he was Christian he needed to be put to death. If Paul was any kind of good man you bet he was conflicted. Why else does Paul's disciple Luke put this story front and center in talking about Paul's conversion (of course he absolves Paul of actually throwing stones by having him only be a coat rack at the scene of the crime). Probably more guilt there than is really relayed by Luke.

[Simplex3]

So you believe that his hearing the voice of God and going blind was caused by guilt? And him seeking and finding the man that was to restore his vision can be explained by having a guilty conscious?
So how is it your Bible interpreter distinguishes between which stories are parable and which ones actually occurred? How does he account for the fact that man redacted sections?

The Bible is, at best, man's butchering of some things God said.

For me, Catholicism says it best when they say "do what we say, even though you think it's wrong, because God says that if you do what I tell you he'll own up to it and let you into heaven no matter how wrong it actually was."

I'd love to put the technical term for that in here, but it's early and I can't remember it.

[Herzig]

So they worship God the father, Son and Holy spirit all wrapped up into 1 trinity?

Yes....and for your information...most all Christians do as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

[Hammock Parties]

The trinity is the biggest load of bullshit this side of alien abductions...

[stevieray]

The trinity is the biggest load of bullshit this side of alien abductions...

still has you by the balls...

[Adept Havelock]

still has you by the balls...

:hmmm:

So that's where those Catholic Priests picked up their obsession with little boys. A divine interest in male genitalia. :p

[Hammock Parties]

still has you by the balls...

Hell aliens scare the crap out of me...

[Nightwish]

So they worship God the father, Son and Holy spirit all wrapped up into 1 trinity?
That's a perception of God. Doesn't mean the perception is correct. Two different religions can have the same God, perceive him completely different, and both be dead wrong in their perceptions. God is what S/He/It is, regardless of how we perceive Him/Her/It. Just because some Christians (Trinitarians, to be specific) believe that God is 3-in-1, doesn't mean that God is, in fact, 3-in-1. Just because Muslims and non-Trinitarian Christians do not believe in the Trinity doesn't mean there isn't a Trinity. What we believe about God, no matter how pervasive that belief is, doesn't have much impact on what God finally and ultimately is. If God is a Trinity, then the Trinitarian Christians have that part right about their God, yet may still have many other parts wrong. If God isn't a Trinity, then Muslims and non-Trinitarians have that part right about their God, yet may still have many other parts wrong. If there is only one Creator of the the universe, and both religions believe in only one Creator of the universe, then the God they are following is the same one. That doesn't mean that both or either of them are following that God the right way, the proper way, or the way S/He/It desires to be followed, assuming S/He/It desires to be followed at all.