GRETZ: Say Goodbye to the Circus

[C-Mac]

http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2007/06/11/gretz_say_goodbye_to_the_circus/
GRETZ: Say Goodbye to the Circus
Jun 11, 2007, 9:02:54 AM by Bob Gretz - FAQ


The circus has left town.

Last week’s trade of Trent Green to the Miami Dolphins was the very public end to an offensive era around Arrowhead Stadium. The truth is that the circus ended last year with the arrival of Herm Edwards and the departure of Dick Vermeil and offensive coordinator Al Saunders.

What will the Chiefs offense look like in 2007? Take a trip back to the arrival of Marty Schottenheimer as the head coach of the Chiefs, because if you saw the offense the team ran in 1989 through the 1992 seasons, then you are about to see something very close to that again.

The Chiefs offense in 2007 will feature a lot of this:

Running the ball, behind Larry Johnson and especially since the Chiefs believe they’ve found two talented youngsters this year in Kolby Smith and Marcus O’Keith.
The play-action passing game, hopefully to push the ball down the field more often than they were able to do last year.
Throwing to the running back, to make use of Johnson’s speed, and that of Michael Bennett and Smith.
Quick passes, with the quarterback getting rid of the ball out of his hands to help the protection.
Passes to Tony Gonzalez, allowing the tight end to make some plays, especially in the red zone.
Protecting the football, meaning no interceptions and fumbles.
If all that sounds familiar, then you’ve been a Chiefs fan for at least the last 20 years. With the exception of throwing to the backs and Gonzalez, it was called Marty Ball and that’s how the Chiefs moved the ball in the early years of Schottenheimer’s time as head coach.

For some reason that became a derogatory description. Heaven knows why. The Chiefs offense of that era did not set records. But the team went to the playoffs in 1990, 1991 and 1992. They would have gone to the playoffs in 1989 and would have won a post-season game in 1990 had kicker Nick Lowery not blown a couple of field goal tries at Cleveland (’89) and at Miami (’90.)

Ultimately, Schottenheimer changed his offense in 1993, when he brought in Paul Hackett and the team traded for Joe Montana. They installed the West Coast scheme of the San Francisco 49ers that was heavy on passing, especially short passes to the running back, fullback and tight end.

The Chiefs are simplifying what they do offensively. No longer will they have game plans with 100-plus plays, certainly not the 200-plus that sometimes were part of the week’s preparation under Vermeil/Saunders. They will rely less on the shifting and motion that was so much a part of the Chiefs offense in the last six years.

Is all this a step backwards for the offense and the Chiefs? If the goal is to make the playoffs, then no, it’s not a step to the rear. Here’s a comparison of numbers from the 1989-92 Marty Ball offense to the 2002-05 Flying Circus. Those four seasons were selected because last year was not the Vermeil-Saunders offense and the first year (2001) was a transition season for that scheme:



The Flying Circus had 14 games where it scored 40 points or more, compared to three times for Marty Ball. Under Schottenheimer in that four-season span, the Chiefs had three 1,000-yard rushers and a single 1,000-yard receiver. Under Vermeil, they had three 1,000-yard rushers and three 1,000-yard receivers.

Analysis: more points and more yards do not mean more victories and more trips to the playoffs. It may mean more excitement on a week-to-week basis, although that’s the eye of the beholder, but it guarantees nothing in the post-season. The Flying Circus averaged 73 yards a game more and 7.5 points per game more and won one less game and made two less post-season appearances.

Supposedly, one of the problems with a Marty Ball offense is scoring in the playoffs; in four post-season games, the Chiefs scored 16,10, 14 and 0 points. Their record in those games was 1-3.

The Flying Circus had one visit to the playoffs and scored 31 points. Its post-season record was 0-1.

This is not to lay the blame for the lack of post-season participation in the Vermeil Era on the offense. They didn’t get a lot of help from the defense. Teams make the playoffs and win games in the post-season because they are balanced, with offense, defense and special teams all aware of their roles and how they fit together to create a team.

With the Flying Circus, the Chiefs were an unbalanced football team. All Herm Edwards is trying to do is even up the scales and push the team to a more balanced state. History tells us that could give them a better chance of regularly making the playoffs.

[Kerberos]

Barnum&Bailey have NOTHING on Vermeil&Sauders

[DMAC]

I won't miss the motion and shifting.

[Hammock Parties]

I won't miss the motion and shifting.

Uh, why? There's nothing wrong with it.

[Brock]

Marcus O'Keith? WTF?

[Reerun_KC]

I won't miss the motion and shifting.


YEAH I am not a big fan of creating mis-matchs and give your offense a better chance to beat the opposing defense...

I prefer running up the centers ass all game...

[Hammock Parties]

Marcus O'Keith? WTF?

Rookie FA.

[Reerun_KC]

Agian, another piss poor article...

OH by the way Gretz? We are 0-1 in the playoffs with the new MartyBall approach...

This is going to be an exciting year...

[DMAC]

Uh, why? There's nothing wrong with it.I know there is nothing wrong with it. I just was never big on it.

Just like I'm not big on Mizzou's constant shotgun 5 wide.

[Buehler445]

I think it is pretty unreasonable to say that Herm will play like Shottenheimer. There are so many aspects to the game, coaching styles, and different players to think that it will be the same.

Furthermore, this paints a picture of a team that can't win in the playoffs no matter what they do.

Maybe I'm just cranky because it is monday.

[Splat420]

This article didn't say any thing that 90% of Chiefs fans didn't all ready know.

[FAX]

People pay to go to the circus. People don't pay to go to funerals.

FAX

[InChiefsHeaven]

People pay to go to the circus. People don't pay to go to funerals.

FAX

Chiefs fans do...have done so for the better part of 20 years now...:shrug:

[InChiefsHeaven]

Marcus O'Keith? WTF?

My thoughts exactly. Never even heard of this dude. What about Ross? I guess they're not impressed with him? He was lighting it up in Europe as I recall...

[FAX]

Chiefs fans do...have done so for the better part of 20 years now...:shrug:

Point.

Probably the last one we'll score in a while, though, Mr. InChiefsHell.

FAX

[ChiefsCountry]

Agian, another piss poor article...

OH by the way Gretz? We are 0-1 in the playoffs with the new MartyBall approach...

This is going to be an exciting year...

All I know is that Herm took the Jets to playoffs more times than Vermeil did with the Chiefs in that same time period and had double the wins.

[Reerun_KC]

All Herm Edwards is trying to do is even up the scales and push the team to a more balanced state. History tells us that could give them a better chance of regularly making the playoffs.

Maybe we should focus on winning when we in the playoffs? That might be a solid approach to consider dont you think Gretz?

Winning in the playoffs is what counts in the NFL the last time I checked... Marty, Gun, DV or Edwars( so far ) havent done sh*t on the Chiefs sidelines since 1994...

[htismaqe]

Maybe we should focus on winning when we in the playoffs? That might be a solid approach to consider dont you think Gretz?

Winning in the playoffs is what counts in the NFL the last time I checked... Marty, Gun, DV or Edwars( so far ) havent done sh*t on the Chiefs sidelines since 1994...

You can't win in the playoffs if you can't ever make it.

[Reerun_KC]

All I know is that Herm took the Jets to playoffs more times than Vermeil did with the Chiefs in that same time period and had double the wins.


:bravo: for Herm and the Jets.....

[Buehler445]

My thoughts exactly. Never even heard of this dude. What about Ross? I guess they're not impressed with him? He was lighting it up in Europe as I recall...

The article said they had good ROOKIE talent. Ross has been around awhile. Article was vague, but I think that was the point.

[BigMeatballDave]

Uh, why? There's nothing wrong with it.I enjoyed all the post-season wins it got us... :p

[Reerun_KC]

I enjoyed all the post-season wins it got us... :p

I enjoyed all of Marty's Post-season wins as well... I think I actually have those 3 on tape....

[Reerun_KC]

You can't win in the playoffs if you can't ever make it.


I guess the pathetic thing about the whole article is the justification of the circus offense vs buttsex football...


Does it really matter? No one under Carls watch has done sh*t as a headcoach anyways....

To me, this is more of an article to justify sucking as the norm...

[htismaqe]

I guess the pathetic thing about the whole article is the justification of the circus offense vs buttsex football...


Does it really matter? No one under Carls watch has done sh*t as a headcoach anyways....

To me, this is more of an article to justify sucking as the norm...

It's the official website of the Kansas City Chiefs. What do you expect?

All corporate websites do this.

[donkhater]

If the goal of the Herm Edwards era is to consistently get back to the playoffs, then a return to a defensive-minded, conservative offense is the best way to do that. Over the course of a long season, that approach will limit mistakes on offense and an above average defensive team can win 9-11 games. Of that I have no doubt.

But that WILL NOT win NFL championships. Scared, conservative play-calling WILL NOT win championships. Of that I also have no doubt.

Unless you are a defense of the caliber of the '85 Bears or '00 Ravens, you simply cannot count on that to get you a ring. Multiple playoff berths? Yes. Filled stadium every Sunday? Yes The ring? No.

[FAX]

It's the official website of the Kansas City Chiefs. What do you expect?

All corporate websites do this.

Very true, Mr. htismaqe. As usual, you display a keen and discerning intellect. I would only add that, if a corporation competed as poorly and as long as the Chiefs have in their field, the stockholders would have ousted management long ago. Starting at the top.

I fear that we fans will all be jamming through the grocery in our mobility chairs before we see another Super Bowl. And if this were a corporation, we would be paying with food stamps because our investment never paid off.

FAX

[crazycoffey]

Good bye circus, fun while it lasted.

But this is our year to win a playoff game....

[Sure-Oz]

i never read the kcchiefs articles they are usually lame.

[htismaqe]

Very true, Mr. htismaqe. As usual, you display a keen and discerning intellect. I would only add that, if a corporation competed as poorly and as long as the Chiefs have in their field, the stockholders would have ousted management long ago. Starting at the top.

I fear that we fans will all be jamming through the grocery in our mobility chairs before we see another Super Bowl. And if this were a corporation, we would be paying with food stamps because our investment never paid off.

FAX

Not necessarily. You're thinking of a publically-traded corporation.

Unfortunately, the Chiefs are privately-owned. The stakeholders are evidently very happy with the team's performance.

[htismaqe]

i never read the kcchiefs articles they are usually lame.

Yep.

[Reerun_KC]

Unfortunately, the Chiefs are privately-owned. The stakeholders are evidently very happy with the amount of money they squeeze out of KC for a very mediocre team's performance.


FYP

[Reerun_KC]

i never read the kcchiefs articles they are usually lame.

Actually I am going back to that approach... Today I read them for the first time in a long time... Now I regret that decession...

[FAX]

Not necessarily. You're thinking of a publically-traded corporation.

Unfortunately, the Chiefs are privately-owned. The stakeholders are evidently very happy with the team's performance.

To make your analogy work, one has to equate the chiefs to a publicly traded company. That's because private corporations generally don't have interested or vested parties spread across the world. In this case fans are like shareholders, profit is like wins, Carl is like Satan's concubine, I am like the guy who shouted, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take this anymore!".

FAX

[htismaqe]

FYP

Can you blame them?

Ask Wal-Mart - if customers are fully willing to pay for an inferior product, is it in the company's best interest to spend more money than they have to to beef up that product?

[htismaqe]

To make your analogy work, one has to equate the chiefs to a publicly traded company. That's because private corporations generally don't have interested or vested parties spread across the world. In this case fans are like shareholders, profit is like wins, Carl is like Satan's concubine, I am like the guy who shouted, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take this anymore!".

FAX

If you liken the Chiefs to a publically-traded company, then the fans are shareholders with non-voting shares.

We can bitch all we want but have no power to change anything.

[Hammock Parties]

Coming on Wednesday: The engine of the Chiefs offense – Larry Johnson – speaks.

Exciting!

[Brock]

I am like the guy who shouted, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take this anymore!".

FAX

Except you WILL take it. Yes, you WILL. :hump:

[FAX]

If you liken the Chiefs to a publically-traded company, then the fans are shareholders with non-voting shares.

We can bitch all we want but have no power to change anything.

Exactly.

FAX

[Chiefnj]

The Circus wasn't the problem. It was the Comedy act called the defense.

[DMAC]

The Circus wasn't the problem. It was the Comedy act called the defense.No, it was still the Circus. It was just the sideshow.

[htismaqe]

Exactly.

FAX

Not exactly. I thought about this after I posted, and we do, in some limited fashion, have some say.

We could SELL OUR SHARES. :hmmm:

[Reerun_KC]

Not exactly. I thought about this after I posted, and we do, in some limited fashion, have some say.

We could SELL OUR SHARES. :hmmm:

You could, but there is someone else in line ready to take your place.

[FAX]

Not exactly. I thought about this after I posted, and we do, in some limited fashion, have some say.

We could SELL OUR SHARES. :hmmm:

I've considered it to be sure, but it seems as though they're restricted and non-transferable, Mr. htismaqe.

FAX

[htismaqe]

You could, but there is someone else in line ready to take your place.

Unfortunately, very true.

[BigChiefFan]

This article really sucks. Gretz once again looks like a total hole. It's one thing to be supportive of the current regime, it's another to bash a previous regime without using any tact. Gretz is a first class douche.

[FAX]

You could, but there is someone else in line ready to take your place.

Interesting point, Mr. Reerun_KC. After consulting the ethers on this very interesting point, Mr. Reerun_KC, it occurs to me that there are two sides to this.

Some time ago, and during a televised game, they showed a map of the US and made a surprising statement (at least to me) that the Chiefs had season ticket holders in every state in the Union save 2 or something. Perhaps you saw this, as well. If true, the Chiefs nation is widespread and diverse.

It is, therefore, somewhat safe to assume that, were the Chiefs to actually achieve success as a "football team" in the form of post-season wins, the sales of Chiefs merchandise, donations to their players' various causes, and general goodwill would increase dramatically.

For that reason, it makes no sense that they settle for mediocrity. I know that Carl is trying, Herm is trying, and the Hunt family is trying. But at some point, a "corporate" decision has to be made that opportunity cost is outweighing current revenue, so changes at the top should be made, does it not?

FAX

[crazycoffey]

Does Gretz have an account here?


BTW, isn't Matt Millan still the GM for the Lions? We don't have a leg to stand on with CP, not a court in the land will listen to our case.....

[htismaqe]

Does Gretz have an account here?

Yeah, his username is jwhit.

[crazycoffey]

Yeah, his username is jwhit.


I thought that was jason....

[CoMoChief]

You know there is such thing as playing good offense and good defense at the same time. Gretz is a dumbass. That 2003 playoff game had nothing to do with the offense. We fielded some of the worse defenses this league has ever seen during the DV era. Offense had nothing to do with lack of playoff success during that time. We had a Super Bowl offense, and a pop warner league defense. Can't win in this league like that.

[FAX]

You know there is such thing as playing good offense and good defense at the same time. Gretz is a dumbass. That 2003 playoff game had nothing to do with the offense. We fielded some of the worse defenses this league has ever seen during the DV era. Offense had nothing to do with lack of playoff success during that time. We had a Super Bowl offense, and a pop warner league defense. Can't win in this league like that.

Absolutely, Mr. CoMoChief. I have no idea why the Chiefs find it so incredibly difficult to field both a "good" offense and "good" defense at the same time. It's completely baffling. When a dwarf is in a terrible car accident because they can't see over the steering wheel very well and they have to have one of their tiny, little legs removed, the doctor gives them a prosthetic dwarf leg so they can walk. We just hop around.

FAX

[BigMeatballDave]

Exciting!You need a handy-wipe to clean up your mess?

[Chan93lx50]

You know there is such thing as playing good offense and good defense at the same time. Gretz is a dumbass. That 2003 playoff game had nothing to do with the offense. We fielded some of the worse defenses this league has ever seen during the DV era. Offense had nothing to do with lack of playoff success during that time. We had a Super Bowl offense, and a pop warner league defense. Can't win in this league like that.

I totally agree, why in the hell do they keep on flushing this crap down our throats. They some how are trying to make DV Offense look like its the reason for the teams lack of success. Give me that Offense every year, it was and alway has been the Defense that held this team back. Now we have a mediocore defense and offense which will equal a mediocore team with no playoff wins

[Chris Meck]

No offense to anyone intended, but the circus left town a bit ago.

It started with the transition from Priest Holmes and the perimeter style running attack to LJ's more tackles and in style. This began neutralizing some of our offensive linemen's most unique talents-the fact that Roaf, Shields and Wiegmann could really get outside and run.

Roaf retiring pretty much retired the circus. Even if Trent had played all year last year, there would have been no circus. You can't run the type of offense we'd run the last several years with an iffy line. You couldn't even run it with a great line made up of Ogden type maulers. It was really an offense built on a uniquely talented group of linemen and a remarkably resourceful running back.

I love LJ, but he's an entirely different type of runner. No Roaf, no Shields, no Priest, and of course we have to change.

Trent was everything we could've asked for over the last several years. But it's pretty clear that the offense needed to be rebuilt in the image of the talent available. The unique talents that made '02-'05 possible are all gone now.

Now you've got a workhorse type back, a bruiser. You've got a great TE. You've got one aging dependable receiver, and a gifted rookie. You've got what should be a decent but not dominant line. You've got an ascending defense, but you're more than likely a few years away from truly competing for a championship. Why stick with a 37 year old QB that won't be here when that time comes?

So you go with your young guy. You simplify the offense, not just for him, but for the young receivers. You need to see if you have the horses you need or not. You lean on your bruising running back. You lean on your all-world TE. You take your shots downfield.

The idea that you can't win a SB that way is absurd. '05 Steelers anyone? '00 Ravens? '90, '86 Giants? Any of the Redskins champs?

Just because we're going to run the ball and play defense doesn't mean we're returning to the early 90's Martyball. The individuals working in the system are at least as important as the system itself.

We're not likely to score a bunch this season, with a first year QB and probably a first year WR in the lineup. But in the upcoming seasons we don't know yet.

Chris

[htismaqe]

I thought that was jason....

;)

[Kerberos]

No offense to anyone intended, but the circus left town a bit ago.

It started with the transition from Priest Holmes and the perimeter style running attack to LJ's more tackles and in style. This began neutralizing some of our offensive linemen's most unique talents-the fact that Roaf, Shields and Wiegmann could really get outside and run.

Roaf retiring pretty much retired the circus. Even if Trent had played all year last year, there would have been no circus. You can't run the type of offense we'd run the last several years with an iffy line. You couldn't even run it with a great line made up of Ogden type maulers. It was really an offense built on a uniquely talented group of linemen and a remarkably resourceful running back.

I love LJ, but he's an entirely different type of runner. No Roaf, no Shields, no Priest, and of course we have to change.

Trent was everything we could've asked for over the last several years. But it's pretty clear that the offense needed to be rebuilt in the image of the talent available. The unique talents that made '02-'05 possible are all gone now.

Now you've got a workhorse type back, a bruiser. You've got a great TE. You've got one aging dependable receiver, and a gifted rookie. You've got what should be a decent but not dominant line. You've got an ascending defense, but you're more than likely a few years away from truly competing for a championship. Why stick with a 37 year old QB that won't be here when that time comes?

So you go with your young guy. You simplify the offense, not just for him, but for the young receivers. You need to see if you have the horses you need or not. You lean on your bruising running back. You lean on your all-world TE. You take your shots downfield.

The idea that you can't win a SB that way is absurd. '05 Steelers anyone? '00 Ravens? '90, '86 Giants? Any of the Redskins champs?

Just because we're going to run the ball and play defense doesn't mean we're returning to the early 90's Martyball. The individuals working in the system are at least as important as the system itself.

We're not likely to score a bunch this season, with a first year QB and probably a first year WR in the lineup. But in the upcoming seasons we don't know yet.

Chris

:clap: nice read

[chiefsfan1963]

The Chiefs will continue to get better on D and continue to slide on O.

Perhaps there will be a couple of wild cards on O that could change the outcome of the season. That's my only hope for this season. It's slim.
If we aren't going to the SB I don't want us to play just good enough to to get our regular 20th pick or higher in the draft.

If we want to get younger let's play our young players and build for the future. We have all our picks next year plus extras. This will be our best opportunity in a long while to truly rebuild

[Eric]

This article is spin.

Scoring 30 points and with a good D takes you to the superbowl. (I blame Vermeil for personel and not having another lovy Smith at D.Coord.)

The problem is once again the lack of talent on one side of the D.

That problem may have been fixed with personel dept. changes.

A weak Gretz article.

[Adept Havelock]

Dick Vermiel's Flying Circus?

I don't recall Peterson signing John Cleese to play WR. Though I would like to see the "Ministry of Silly Routes" sketch.

[Easy 6]

We can say goodbye to the circus just as soon as people stop writing articles about it, let it die & move on.

[htismaqe]

Dick Vermiel's Flying Circus?

I don't recall Peterson signing John Cleese to play WR. Though I would like to see the "Ministry of Silly Routes" sketch.

ROFL

I'd gladly pay for season tickets if Eric Idle were on the sidelines during every game.

[the Talking Can]

"Supposedly, one of the problems with a Marty Ball offense is scoring in the playoffs; in four post-season games, the Chiefs scored 16,10, 14 and 0 points. Their record in those games was 1-3."

well, then there is nothing "supposed" about it...

[LOCOChief]

I liked Martyball, it almost worked a couple of times. I think it would have worked if not for Marty's karma proplem.
I liked Martyball for the same reasons I'm looking forward to this new Chiefs squad.
Control the clock, under DV I can't tell yu how many time I was ****ing my self because we scored to quickly. I miss the hit em in the mouth, tough style ball. I bet more folks remember the the last time we posted a defensive shutout than a 50+ point game. I'm ready for a dominant D, and we WILL see that again under Herm. Won't it be cool to see a D with 6 sack under it's belt against the Cinci Bungholes in Oct. with Tamba calling for a safety....and then it happens. Maybe then teams will fear coming to Arrowhead, they don't feel like that now, who is scared of the circus?

[Buehler445]

No offense to anyone intended, but the circus left town a bit ago.

It started with the transition from Priest Holmes and the perimeter style running attack to LJ's more tackles and in style. This began neutralizing some of our offensive linemen's most unique talents-the fact that Roaf, Shields and Wiegmann could really get outside and run.

Roaf retiring pretty much retired the circus. Even if Trent had played all year last year, there would have been no circus. You can't run the type of offense we'd run the last several years with an iffy line. You couldn't even run it with a great line made up of Ogden type maulers. It was really an offense built on a uniquely talented group of linemen and a remarkably resourceful running back.

I love LJ, but he's an entirely different type of runner. No Roaf, no Shields, no Priest, and of course we have to change.

Trent was everything we could've asked for over the last several years. But it's pretty clear that the offense needed to be rebuilt in the image of the talent available. The unique talents that made '02-'05 possible are all gone now.

Now you've got a workhorse type back, a bruiser. You've got a great TE. You've got one aging dependable receiver, and a gifted rookie. You've got what should be a decent but not dominant line. You've got an ascending defense, but you're more than likely a few years away from truly competing for a championship. Why stick with a 37 year old QB that won't be here when that time comes?

So you go with your young guy. You simplify the offense, not just for him, but for the young receivers. You need to see if you have the horses you need or not. You lean on your bruising running back. You lean on your all-world TE. You take your shots downfield.

The idea that you can't win a SB that way is absurd. '05 Steelers anyone? '00 Ravens? '90, '86 Giants? Any of the Redskins champs?

Just because we're going to run the ball and play defense doesn't mean we're returning to the early 90's Martyball. The individuals working in the system are at least as important as the system itself.

We're not likely to score a bunch this season, with a first year QB and probably a first year WR in the lineup. But in the upcoming seasons we don't know yet.

Chris

Very good points. I too think that the direction of the franchise is upward. When DV took over, there was a transition period. I think this one will be longer because of the age of our players and the associated holes they create in our roster. If the team can achieve some sort of balance, that is the first step towards success. A vast majority of Super Bowl winners have balance. Granted the balance is above mediocre, but it has to be there.

I don't think you will see the Chiefs transform into the '00 Ravens. The team drafted an offensive player in the first round, and it wasn't a RB or a lineman. Moreover, they are trying to figure out ways to utilize LJ's speed, not just his ability to plow his way through the line.

I'm still optomistic.

[InChiefsHeaven]

I'm always optimistic. I'm a loser.

[el borracho]

Well, I will miss the trapeze artists and the lion-tamers but it was definitely time to get rid of the clowns and the bearded ladies.

[Buehler445]

it was definitely time to get rid of the ... the bearded ladies.

Yeah, I was happy to see Hall go too:)

[OnTheWarpath15]

Agian, another piss poor article...

OH by the way Gretz? We are 0-1 in the playoffs with the new MartyBall approach...

This is going to be an exciting year...

As opposed to 0-1 with the circus offense?

A loss is a loss.

[Reerun_KC]

As opposed to 0-1 with the circus offense?

A loss is a loss.


A loss is a loss... Losing 38-31 doesnt hurt as much as losing 13-10 to a team you had no business losing too...

Your right, when you refer to the Chiefs and playoffs, a loss is a loss...

[RealSNR]

Marcus O'Keith? WTF?Either Gretz knows something we're not supposed to know (yet) or he's just a fat pile of goo talking out of his asshole (again). My guess is the second one.

It's going to be tough for Derrick Ross to make this team. It's going to be even more difficult for Marcus O'****ing Keith to make this team.

[Reerun_KC]

Either Gretz knows something we're not supposed to know (yet) or he's just a fat pile of goo talking out of his asshole (again). My guess is the second one.

It's going to be tough for Derrick Ross to make this team. It's going to be even more difficult for Marcus O'****ing Keith to make this team.


Keep doubting Marcus O'****ing Keith

[htismaqe]

A loss is a loss... Losing 38-31 doesnt hurt as much as losing 13-10 to a team you had no business losing too...

Your right, when you refer to the Chiefs and playoffs, a loss is a loss...

WHAT?!?!

Losing 38-31 hurts less? WTF?!?!

Furthermore, the lone trip to the playoffs under Vermeil was against a team that had no business LOSING TO US. We were the 13-3 favorite.

This past season, we were the 9-7 underdog. We got beat by a team that everybody expected to beat us. And they went on and won the Super Bowl.

[Reerun_KC]

WHAT?!?!

Losing 38-31 hurts less? WTF?!?!

Furthermore, the lone trip to the playoffs under Vermeil was against a team that had no business LOSING TO US. We were the 13-3 favorite.

This past season, we were the 9-7 underdog. We got beat by a team that everybody expected to beat us. And they went on and won the Super Bowl.

WHAT!?!?

IF we were the favorite, then how did they have no business LOSING TO US???

WTF?!?!

[FAX]

... it was definitely time to get rid of ... the bearded ladies.

ROFL

FAX

[htismaqe]

WHAT!?!?

IF we were the favorite, then how did they have no business LOSING TO US???

WTF?!?!

OOPS

ROFL

We had no business beating them this past year. They had no business beating us in 2003.

[Iowanian]

When did Gritz start writing for WPI?

[Reerun_KC]

OOPS

ROFL

We had no business beating them this past year. They had no business beating us in 2003.


ROFL, That is what I thought you meant, but it was fun to finally catch you on a slip up!

Rock on!

FWIW, All play off losses hurt.... Some more than others...

[FloridaMan88]

Fatass Gretz left this out in his comparison of Vermeil/Saunders' offense vs Martyball...

Vermeil has won a Super Bowl utilizing that style of offense, Marty has never even been to a Super Bowl with his style of offense.

[tk13]

It's embarrassing to read this crap, quite honestly. It does take balance to win a Super Bowl, but it takes good balance. When the offense is playing at a top 5 level, the defense has to be playing at a top 5 level too. This whole idea that having a good offense didn't mean playoff wins, even suggesting that, is stupid. That's not why we didn't win playoff games... it was because our defense stunk. I totally think defense wins championships, but I don't get complaining over a good offense. The Colts just won a Super Bowl with the best offense in the league. The key was, instead of their offense regressing, the defense jumped up to play at a top 5 level with the offense, and they won. Amazing how that works.

[Baby Lee]

who is scared of the circus?
Are there clowns?
http://www.seinfeld-fan.net/pictures/kramer/kramer053.jpg

[Reerun_KC]

Are there clowns?


Clowns are scary as hell.... especially midget clowns....

[GoHuge]

It sounded like Gretz just said we're going back to the old way of not winning playoff games and getting to the Super Bowl. Insightful

[LOCOChief]

Are there clowns?
http://www.seinfeld-fan.net/pictures/kramer/kramer053.jpg

You know, your right I didn't think of the clowns, like the one from poltergeist, the one that was in the chair then not. I hate that little bastard!

[Reerun_KC]

You know, your right I didn't think of the clowns, like the one from poltergeist, the one that was in the chair then not. I hate that little bastard!

BOO!

http://img-tbhl.theonering.net/yabbfiles/Attachments/poltergeist.jpg
http://sistapaua.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/clown_poltergeist.jpg

[OnTheWarpath15]

Fatass Gretz left this out in his comparison of Vermeil/Saunders' offense vs Martyball...

Vermeil has won a Super Bowl utilizing that style of offense, Marty has never even been to a Super Bowl with his style of offense.

You guys crack me up.

Those of you who think VERMEIL won the SB utitilizing "that kind of offense" are full of shit.

Just curious, what kind of offense was Vermeil running in the years prior to the SB win?

Answer: A shitty one.

John Shaw forced Vermeil to hire Mike Martz to rescue the offense.

Charley Armey traded for Marshall Faulk despite Vermeil's objections.

(Sounds familiar, doesn't it LJ?)

In St. Louis, DV was the beneficiary of a solid O line, great WR's, an All World RB, a Godsend QB miracle and a genius Offensive Coordinator.

In KC, DV was the beneficiary of a spectacular O line, average (at best) WR's, an All World RB, a Pro Bowl QB and a genius Offensive Coordinator.

Vermeil may own a ring, but it is in LARGE part to Mike Martz. And don't forget the Rams had a pretty good defense as well.

A 9-23 record, then out of the blue, a 13-3 SB season? It's not just a coincidence.

[LOCOChief]

BOO!

http://img-tbhl.theonering.net/yabbfiles/Attachments/poltergeist.jpg
http://sistapaua.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/clown_poltergeist.jpg

Wow, I never thought that I would see that shit again, thanks

[el borracho]

You know, your right I didn't think of the clowns, like the one from poltergeist, the one that was in the chair then not. I hate that little bastard!
I may never fully forgive Spielberg for that.

[Reerun_KC]

I may never fully forgive Spielberg for that.


That is why us guys in our Mid 30's still to this day hate Clowns....

[RealSNR]

You guys crack me up.

Those of you who think VERMEIL won the SB utitilizing "that kind of offense" are full of shit.

Just curious, what kind of offense was Vermeil running in the years prior to the SB win?

Answer: A shitty one.

John Shaw forced Vermeil to hire Mike Martz to rescue the offense.

Charley Armey traded for Marshall Faulk despite Vermeil's objections.

(Sounds familiar, doesn't it LJ?)

In St. Louis, DV was the beneficiary of a solid O line, great WR's, an All World RB, a Godsend QB miracle and a genius Offensive Coordinator.

In KC, DV was the beneficiary of a spectacular O line, average (at best) WR's, an All World RB, a Pro Bowl QB and a genius Offensive Coordinator.

Vermeil may own a ring, but it is in LARGE part to Mike Martz. And don't forget the Rams had a pretty good defense as well.

A 9-23 record, then out of the blue, a 13-3 SB season? It's not just a coincidence.Are you watermock from the Mange?

[RINGLEADER]

Gretz seems to make the assumption that its impossible to have a Vermeil-style offense with a Schottenheimer defense.

[Reerun_KC]

Gretz seems to make the assumption that its impossible to have a Vermeil-style offense with a Schottenheimer defense.

Its not, See Colts in last years playoffs.

[TinyEvel]

man, Carl has his hand so far up puppetGretz's ass you can see his fingers coming out the mouth.

I still can't understand why the O has to be so neutered to get the D dominant? Draft choices? Cap money? Team focus?

Anyway, I sure as hell hope we don't see anything like that embarrassment in Indy. Our whole team looked like they were on Valium. LJ, the Receivers, even friggin Tynes. Left a stink on my TV that will be there until September.

[Direckshun]

Its not, See Colts in last years playoffs.
Please.

Colts faced one competent offense in last year's playoffs, and Brady spanked them.

[Logical]

If you liken the Chiefs to a publically-traded company, then the fans are shareholders with non-voting shares.

We can bitch all we want but have no power to change anything.

Not quite true, quit showing up and management will make changes. One fan can do nothing, it takes an army sitting at home on gamedays.

[Logical]

No offense to anyone intended, but the circus left town a bit ago.

It started with the transition from Priest Holmes and the perimeter style running attack to LJ's more tackles and in style. This began neutralizing some of our offensive linemen's most unique talents-the fact that Roaf, Shields and Wiegmann could really get outside and run.

Roaf retiring pretty much retired the circus. Even if Trent had played all year last year, there would have been no circus. You can't run the type of offense we'd run the last several years with an iffy line. You couldn't even run it with a great line made up of Ogden type maulers. It was really an offense built on a uniquely talented group of linemen and a remarkably resourceful running back.

I love LJ, but he's an entirely different type of runner. No Roaf, no Shields, no Priest, and of course we have to change.

Trent was everything we could've asked for over the last several years. But it's pretty clear that the offense needed to be rebuilt in the image of the talent available. The unique talents that made '02-'05 possible are all gone now.

Now you've got a workhorse type back, a bruiser. You've got a great TE. You've got one aging dependable receiver, and a gifted rookie. You've got what should be a decent but not dominant line. You've got an ascending defense, but you're more than likely a few years away from truly competing for a championship. Why stick with a 37 year old QB that won't be here when that time comes?

So you go with your young guy. You simplify the offense, not just for him, but for the young receivers. You need to see if you have the horses you need or not. You lean on your bruising running back. You lean on your all-world TE. You take your shots downfield.

The idea that you can't win a SB that way is absurd. '05 Steelers anyone? '00 Ravens? '90, '86 Giants? Any of the Redskins champs?

Just because we're going to run the ball and play defense doesn't mean we're returning to the early 90's Martyball. The individuals working in the system are at least as important as the system itself.

We're not likely to score a bunch this season, with a first year QB and probably a first year WR in the lineup. But in the upcoming seasons we don't know yet.

Chris:clap:

[DenverChief]

Biggest Difference between Martyball and Hermball you ask? no FRIGGIN RBbC Jebus frikkin crisco that used to annoy me....as long as LJ is the man and Bennett et al are just rest LJ for a down or two backs I'll be fine....and look at the QB difference that Herm has compared to Marty, the best marty ad was Montana and Gannon --Bonoer? Girlbac? I'd like to thing TG, BC and DH are worlds better than the two aforementioned out of work QB's...I guess that means Casey Printers is better too, he still works in the NFL!!!

[htismaqe]

Not quite true, quit showing up and management will make changes. One fan can do nothing, it takes an army sitting at home on gamedays.

We discussed that already, about 7 hours before you responded. :D

[FloridaMan88]

Vermeil may own a ring, but it is in LARGE part to Mike Martz. And don't forget the Rams had a pretty good defense as well.



If Martz was the primary reason for why the Lambs won the Super Bowl, then why weren't they able to win anything without Vermeil there?

Answer that one Oh Brilliant One

[htismaqe]

If Martz was the primary reason for why the Lambs won the Super Bowl, then why weren't they able to win anything without Vermeil there?

Answer that one Oh Brilliant One

They won an NFC Championship without Vermeil. Oh Brilliant One.

[OnTheWarpath15]

If Martz was the primary reason for why the Lambs won the Super Bowl, then why weren't they able to win anything without Vermeil there?

Answer that one Oh Brilliant One

Jesus, you're an idiot.

The Rams were 20 games over .500 during the Martz era.

Another SB appearance.

2 Division titles.

4 playoff appearances.

Yeah, they didn't win anything without DV......


:rolleyes:

[Reerun_KC]

Please.

Colts faced one competent offense in last year's playoffs, and Brady spanked them.
If I remember correctly, The Colts did the spanking and advancing...

[FloridaMan88]

Jesus, you're an idiot.

The Rams were 20 games over .500 during the Martz era.

Another SB appearance.

2 Division titles.

4 playoff appearances.

Yeah, they didn't win anything without DV......


:rolleyes:


Hey you don't have to sell the fact Mike Martz was a good head coach to me. Remember I posted several times after Vermeil retired that Martz should be the guy the Chiefs hire to replace him. The Chiefs would be in MUCH better shape as a franchise now if Martz was the head coach and Al Saunders was Assistant Head Coach/Offensive Coordinator.

But to suggest that Vermeil had nothing or little to do with the Lambs winning their Super Bowl is a baseless argument.

[FloridaMan88]

They won an NFC Championship without Vermeil. Oh Brilliant One.

Since when do they give out the Lombardi Trophy for winning the NFC Championship?

[OnTheWarpath15]

Hey you don't have to sell the fact Mike Martz was a good head coach to me. Remember I posted several times after Vermeil retired that Martz should be the guy the Chiefs hire to replace him. The Chiefs would be in MUCH better shape as a franchise now if Martz was the head coach and Al Saunders was Assistant Head Coach/Offensive Coordinator.

But to suggest that Vermeil had nothing or little to do with the Lambs winning their Super Bowl is a baseless argument.

And it's not the argument I was making.

Go back and re-read the posts.

Vermeil is not responsible for the "circus offense" in STL or KC. That's the point. He was forced to hire Martz and change the offense in STL. Had John Shaw not forced the issue, the Rams would have likely wasted a shit-ton of talent. Martz brought it to the forefront and used it as a weapon.

It is my opinion, however, that DV would not have his SB ring if not for Martz and Faulk being forced on him. Doing it "his way" would have likely resulted in another crappy season.

IMO, Martz was an incredible Coordinator. He was a horrible Head Coach. Lucky for him, the gameplan and playcalling decisions he made often bailed him out of bad game management decisions.

[FloridaMan88]

IMO, Martz was an incredible Coordinator. He was a horrible Head Coach. Lucky for him, the gameplan and playcalling decisions he made often bailed him out of bad game management decisions.

At least Martz had his superior gameplanning and playcalling abilities to fall back on... Herm is horrible at all three of those coaching abilities you mentioned.

[HemiEd]

man, Carl has his hand so far up puppetGretz's ass you can see his fingers coming out the mouth.

I still can't understand why the O has to be so neutered to get the D dominant? Draft choices? Cap money? Team focus?

Anyway, I sure as hell hope we don't see anything like that embarrassment in Indy. Our whole team looked like they were on Valium. LJ, the Receivers, even friggin Tynes. Left a stink on my TV that will be there until September.

I honestly don't think Herm understands a complicated offense.

[jidar]

oh shit.. that's rather painful

[BigChiefFan]

Gretz looks like a total douche now.

[StcChief]

the circus is on the road in Chicago this weekend.

[BigChiefFan]

The madhouse travels to Chicago this week.

[King_Chief_Fan]

The circus might have left, but it left at least 2 clowns behind, make that 3. Peterson, Edwards, Solari.

[Calcountry]

I think it is pretty unreasonable to say that Herm will play like Shottenheimer. There are so many aspects to the game, coaching styles, and different players to think that it will be the same.

Furthermore, this paints a picture of a team that can't win in the playoffs no matter what they do.

Maybe I'm just cranky because it is monday.No doubt. He ended his article with, "more trips to the playoffs", as if, that were the ultimate goal.

Nothing about wins in the playoffs, oh no. That would necessitate bringing up Marty's abysmal playoff record.

Nothing about maybe even making the Super Bowl? That is simply unfathomable.

[Molitoth]

Hello again circus.

[htismaqe]

Since when do they give out the Lombardi Trophy for winning the NFC Championship?

Since when is the Lombardi Trophy a reasonable goal for a team that hasn't won a playoff game in FOURTEEN YEARS?

[bobbything]

This is not to lay the blame for the lack of post-season participation in the Vermeil Era on the offense. They didn’t get a lot of help from the defense.
In other news: the sky is blue, the sun is hot, and I just shit my pants.

[CHIEF4EVER]

YEAH I am not a big fan of creating mis-matchs and give your offense a better chance to beat the opposing defense...

I prefer running up the centers ass all game...

No shit. This article is beyond drivel written by a dumbass. It is propoganda written by a dumbass. Under Verrmeil and Saunders, the offense clicked. Dickie V's downfall was that he didn't have Lovie Smith as his DC.

[TEX]

Oh - we still have a circus. The Ringmaster is now on year 18 of the 5 -year-plan and his clown of a coach is all talk and doesn't know D*CK about offense. :cuss:

[bobbything]

All Herm Edwards is trying to do is even up the scales and push the team to a more balanced state.
This team is so far away from "balanced." This article, by the end of the year, will prove Gretz nothing more than an apologist for whoever is the head coach of this team. And, once Herm is gone, he'll write a similar article bashing Herm and crowning the newest HC king (or, prince, as the case may still very well be).