this just in from the Pope. not good...

[Hammock Parties]

ok i dont know how to imbed things, so just click on the link and read the delightful story about the roman catholic church...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/pope_other_christians;_ylt=AvPDwOIfMmqD10KkuytMKYDq188F

oh yah, im not sure if this is a repost, so sorry if it is.

[Hammock Parties]

Everything seemed to be going fairly well between the different christian religions, why the hell do they gotta go and throw a wrench into the gears?

[Discuss Thrower]

Non-Catholic that attended Catholic schools.

Catholic folk are good spiritual people. Have their head in the sand on things like Birth Control, however.

The Church itself, however. I have issue with. The Pope B16 just set relations with the Orthodox Church several years because of this, and did it in probably one of the stupidest ways I could imagine.

[Hammock Parties]

exactly. My wifes entire side of the family is catholic, accepting anybody else who believes in god their own way... There will either be a backlash against the pope, or catholics could start to go back to conservative again like they used to be a while back...

[Discuss Thrower]

Maybe that's what he's banking on, considering how Christians in America have turned more conservative in recent years, though that really applies to Evangelicals more than anybody else. This move might work in the Americas, but sure as hell not in Europe.

[Hammock Parties]

well, id actually say that catholics as a whole in america, have turned anti conservative, setting aside the different rules of the church as being way too old school and whatnot. Me not being a catholic though, i guess i cant say exactly how the american catholics are. The Church was finally really seeming to take a step forward in world acceptance, now it seems they may take a lot of steps backwards if they keep this stance...

[SLAG]

I posted this in one of the other threads I might as well post it here too:
I love this Pope.

The reason for this statement is that too many Catholics have been preaching false ecuminism, they had become too friendly with other religions, some had even doubted the dogma of- Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus -

B16 by affirming that the Traditional Extraordinary Mass of the Roman Rite was never Abolished or forbidden, he is fighting the heresy of modernism and plans to restore the Catholic church to its full glory, Put an end to all the liberalism in the church.

We will now see the Liberals true colors, by confirming this a Catholic Dogma, and by restoring the Traditional Mass to its proper place, those Catholics that disagree will throw fits even though this has not affected them, if they have a problem with any of this then they are Heretic's and the truth must resound.

These liberal hypocrites will act as though the Pope is a renegade. Their point is that Popes John and Paul were led by GOD to carry the Church into the Second Vatican Council. Now they will somehow have to make the case that THIS pope is NOT being led by God. They will try, but their hypocrisy will come shining through, as it always does.

Those liberals are just bitter and obnoxious people if they object to this, because the point will be that no one has any reasons whatsoever to object. Those who have a kneejerk reaction to anything "pre-Vatican 2" can solve their problem by just staying away from it. They already have their Mass. They need to shut their liberal mouths if they object to this and let the traditional Catholics finally be pastorally cared for.

[Hammock Parties]

I posted this in one of the other threads I might as well post it here too:
I love this Pope.

The reason for this statement is that too many Catholics have been preaching false ecuminism, they had become too friendly with other religions, some had even doubted the dogma of- Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus -

B16 by affirming that the Traditional Extraordinary Mass of the Roman Rite was never Abolished or forbidden, he is fighting the heresy of modernism and plans to restore the Catholic church to its full glory, Put an end to all the liberalism in the church.

We will now see the Liberals true colors, by confirming this a Catholic Dogma, and by restoring the Traditional Mass to its proper place, those Catholics that disagree will throw fits even though this has not affected them, if they have a problem with any of this then they are Heretic's and the truth must resound.

These liberal hypocrites will act as though the Pope is a renegade. Their point is that Popes John and Paul were led by GOD to carry the Church into the Second Vatican Council. Now they will somehow have to make the case that THIS pope is NOT being led by God. They will try, but their hypocrisy will come shining through, as it always does.

Those liberals are just bitter and obnoxious people if they object to this, because the point will be that no one has any reasons whatsoever to object. Those who have a kneejerk reaction to anything "pre-Vatican 2" can solve their problem by just staying away from it. They already have their Mass. They need to shut their liberal mouths if they object to this and let the traditional Catholics finally be pastorally cared for.

So catholics arent supposed to be friendly with other religions that want to seek god in their own way? im not picking a fight at all, im just trying to understand really

[SLAG]

So catholics arent supposed to be friendly with other religions that want to seek god in their own way? im not picking a fight at all, im just trying to understand really

Friendly, Charitable, Caring yes... but they should not give the false idea that the Catholic church would reconize them as valid or hold that they would have the way to salvation as well.. that has been happening way too much..

the church must Stand up for all of its teachings at all times.

[MichaelH]

Shouldn't they be worrying about not molesting altar boys instead?

[Hammock Parties]

Friendly, Charitable, Caring yes... but they should not give the false idea that the Catholic church would reconize them as valid or hold that they would have the way to salvation as well.. that has been happening way too much..

the church must Stand up for all of its teachings at all times.

I just dont know what to say. i dont feel like arguing, but this is my take on the entire story.

Yes, the pope believes that the traditional catholicism of pre 1962 is the only way to be a real catholic, thats totally fine with me cause im not a catholic. But when ya sit there and say that any other form of religion is wrong and that all other churches cant be considered churches, I really lose all respect for the catholic religion... I gained a lot of respect for the religion when i married into it, but i just cant respect it anymore... Who is to say that all other religions are wrong?

[Hammock Parties]

Shouldn't they be worrying about not molesting altar boys instead?

bet ya anything those would be considered the "liberal catholics."

[Brock]

Who is to say that all other religions are wrong?

A papist king who probably longs for the dark ages.

[Hammock Parties]

with the way everything has been going throughout the world, be it terrorism or whatnot, where does the catholic church come off thinking they can stir up the pot themselves, creating only more controversy for everybody else. They need to understand that its not only catholics that are zealous about their religion, which could create a huge ass backlash against themselves...

[SLAG]

I just dont know what to say. i dont feel like arguing, but this is my take on the entire story.

Yes, the pope believes that the traditional catholicism of pre 1962 is the only way to be a real catholic, thats totally fine with me cause im not a catholic. But when ya sit there and say that any other form of religion is wrong and that all other churches cant be considered churches, I really lose all respect for the catholic religion... I gained a lot of respect for the religion when i married into it, but i just cant respect it anymore... Who is to say that all other religions are wrong?


This is a Misconception... the Pope does not believe that Pre 1962 Catholicism is the only way.. he expressly stated in the Motu Proprio that the new Mass and the Old mass are equally valid, just the traditional form has that something "Extra".

The Pope as the Leader of the Holy Catholic Church is right to reaffrim a teaching that the church has always held that of - Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - Outside the Church there is No Salvation- when one breaks from the Catholic church why should the Catholic church deem them as valid? If they are not Catholic they are not Valid, why should the Catholic Church support them in something that is Not Catholic?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_Nulla_Salus

[Hammock Parties]

This is a Misconception... the Pope does not believe that Pre 1962 Catholicism is the only way.. he expressly stated in the Motu Proprio that the new Mass and the Old mass are equally valid, just the traditional form has that something "Extra".

The Pope as the Leader of the Holy Catholic Church is right to reaffrim a teaching that the church has always held that of - Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - Outside the Church there is No Salvation- when one breaks from the Catholic church why should the Catholic church deem them as valid? If they are not Catholic they are not Valid, why should the Catholic Church support them in something that is Not Catholic?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_Nulla_Salus

Why does the catholic church think that other religions even want the catholics help? Again, its reverting back to the days of killing indians because they believe in a different god.... come on now

[Baby Lee]

I just dont know what to say. i dont feel like arguing, but this is my take on the entire story.

Yes, the pope believes that the traditional catholicism of pre 1962 is the only way to be a real catholic, thats totally fine with me cause im not a catholic. But when ya sit there and say that any other form of religion is wrong and that all other churches cant be considered churches, I really lose all respect for the catholic religion... I gained a lot of respect for the religion when i married into it, but i just cant respect it anymore... Who is to say that all other religions are wrong?
Who is anyone to say anything is right or wrong?
It's an opinion.
Some religions are creedal, some simply thinks the world works a certain way and however you move through it is your destiny.
Speaking as someone whose religion has, without my assent, moved from a distinct and peculiar ministry and creed, to a creed-free amorphous collective of people seeking their individual personal relationship with Jesus, I can say that this move can be very demoralizing.

[alnorth]

Who is to say that all other religions are wrong?

Umm... almost every religion in existence? "Wrong" doesnt necessarily mean "evil", or "will definitely lead to damnation" or anything like that, but a religion believes in their particular way for a reason. Thats pretty much one of the basic points of a religion. If a religion says that they dont know if their way is correct and that other faiths may be equally "valid", then its honestly not much of a religion, and more like a multi-faith general gathering of neighbors vaguely intended to just pray and chat afterwards.

I have absolutely no problem with the pope's stance on this. I was raised Catholic and have pretty much drifted off into atheism now, but I dont see what is so shocking about the idea that someone believes their religion is correct and the only guarantee of salvation.

[Demonpenz]

There is only one true church. The rest be damned

[Hammock Parties]

Who is anyone to say anything is right or wrong?
It's an opinion.
Some religions are creedal, some simply thinks the world works a certain way and however you move through it is your destiny.
Speaking as someone whose religion has, without my assent, moved from a distinct and peculiar ministry and creed, to a creed-free amorphous collective of people seeking their individual personal relationship with Jesus, I can say that this move can be very demoralizing.


yah yah yah, sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me, right? Well, the catholic church is a huge organization and in saying that other christian religions are wrong is almost like the president saying that all other races are wrong, only whites are right... They're going back to the biggotry that was finally done away with. Again, as i said before, "in my opinion," is just another step back for the catholic church...

[SLAG]

Why does the catholic church think that other religions even want the catholics help? Again, its reverting back to the days of killing indians because they believe in a different god.... come on now
I would disagree..

People bitch and moan to Rome because they will not change, people expect to make the Catholic church into what they want it to be, instead of letting Catholics practice their faith they are always under attack for one thing or another,

If Someone is not Catholic No problem, let the Pope run his church however God Guides him, if someone is Catholic- Shut up and Live your faith as the church Teaches it.. its a Religion
religion is pretty much All or Nothing, Stop complaining, if you dont Like it Dont call yourself Catholic.

[alnorth]

yah yah yah, sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me, right? Well, the catholic church is a huge organization and in saying that other christian religions are wrong is almost like the president saying that all other races are wrong, only whites are right... They're going back to the biggotry that was finally done away with. Again, as i said before, "in my opinion," is just another step back for the catholic church...

That comparison is flat-out silly. Race is not an idea or a way of life, its just a biological fact. A religion *IS* opinion and faith. It is absolutely valid and fine to say that I believe my religion is correct and all others are incorrect (but I will pray for you, and hope you go to heaven, and blah blah blah).

[Demonpenz]

This is a story I would like to share. I had a priest growing up in my teens that wouldn't marry a non catholic and a catholic. Or a couple with a baby outside of marriage. He was such a hardass. I always thought. Who the **** are you? Then he got in trouble with a women when I was a senior in high school. Now I learned he is not a priest anymore.

[Hammock Parties]

Umm... almost every religion in existence? "Wrong" doesnt necessarily mean "evil", or "will definitely lead to damnation" or anything like that, but a religion believes in their particular way for a reason. Thats pretty much one of the basic points of a religion. If a religion says that they dont know if their way is correct and that other faiths may be equally "valid", then its honestly not much of a religion, and more like a multi-faith general gathering of neighbors vaguely intended to just pray and chat afterwards.

I have absolutely no problem with the pope's stance on this. I was raised Catholic and have pretty much drifted off into atheism now, but I dont see what is so shocking about the idea that someone believes their religion is correct and the only guarantee of salvation.

probably because im the type of person that believes there is somebody up above, but religion is and always has been organized BY MEN, and that any religion who believes in a god, is right. Anybody who believes this is totally cool with me, be it the catholics, jews, etc.

[Brock]

Oh well, he'll probably wuss out and apologize like he did for the Muslims.

[Hammock Parties]

Oh well, he'll probably wuss out and apologize like he did for the Muslims.

well lets hope it to be true, because other christian religions arent really going to take too kindly to any of this... We need unity, not sepperation...

[gblowfish]

2012: Six radical Catholics hijack a United Airlines jet, crash it in the middle of Liberty University. Leave a note that says its a Catholic Jihad...death to the Methodists...Go Fighting Irish, whatever that means.

Within months all Catholics are rounded up by President Brownback and interrogated at Gitmo.

Some are forced into naked pyramids and photographed by Assembly of God National Guardsmen.

[Brock]

well lets hope it to be true, because other christian religions arent really going to take too kindly to any of this... We need unity, not sepperation...

Even if there were unity, it would only be cosmetic. I say state your beliefs no matter what they are, and don't apologize for it.

[Demonpenz]

well lets hope it to be true, because other christian religions arent really going to take too kindly to any of this... We need unity, not sepperation...

I disagree. The catholic church must stand out as the one true religion. The bread becomes Christ during mass as the wine turns to the Blood. There needs to be a clear distinction between the one true religion and others.

[alnorth]

probably because im the type of person that believes there is somebody up above, but religion is and always has been organized BY MEN, and that any religion who believes in a god, is right. Anybody who believes this is totally cool with me, be it the catholics, jews, etc.

Your religion dictates that a God does exist, but beyond that, you believe none of the other established religions know anything, from the various events in question, to the laws that God commands us to follow, to the rituals God wants us to observe.

In other words, you believe the Catholic faith, the Jewish faith, etc is wrong, since those faiths do claim to know the answer. To turn your words around, who are you to call another religion wrong?

[Hammock Parties]

I disagree. The catholic church must stand out as the one true religion. The bread becomes Christ during mass as the wine turns to the Blood. There needs to be a clear distinction between the one true religion and others.

sorry, i dont see catholocism as the true religion.

[Demonpenz]

sorry, i dont see catholocism as the true religion.

Alright then we agree not to unite.

[alnorth]

sorry, i dont see catholocism as the true religion.

In other words, Catholicism is incorrect? In that opinion I join you, but I also dont believe there's anything surprising or objectionable for observant Catholics to believe other religions are incorrect.

[Hammock Parties]

In other words, Catholicism is incorrect? In that opinion I join you, but I also dont believe there's anything surprising or objectionable for observant Catholics to believe other religions are incorrect.

no, catholicism isnt incorrect, but saying that any other religion is incorrect is totally bogus.

[MichaelH]

sorry, i dont see catholocism as the true religion.

I don't care to piss on the log but I as well don't see catholisicism as the the one true religion. I am a proud Protestant and will remain so for reasons as apparent 300 years ago as they are now.

[Hammock Parties]

If somebody wants to believe in god, great. They can do it whenever and however they want. I just dont like how the catholic church feels that if they dont worship god in the same way as the church, then they arent finding salvation.

When they say they arent finding salvation, are they saying that they're misguided people who are going to hell? Because thats exactly how it sounds, and i think many people that arent catholic would agree.

[Demonpenz]

The question would be why do you care what catholics believe. You should be worried about what YOU believe. I am not going to get bent out of shape if someone from another religion says I am going to hell because my faith tells me I will find salvation. Everyone is so worried about what catholic thinks, probably in the back of their mind they know they should be following the catholic word.

[gblowfish]

What happens if Notre Dame plays BYU?

[Demonpenz]

Notre dame has played byu every year.

[gblowfish]

Notre dame has played byu every year.
Will Notre Dame make them swear allegiance to the Virgin Mary, or torture them with hell fire?

Will Brigham Young re-appear as an angel and smite the Irish?

Will Keith Jackson say the eulogy?

[alnorth]

no, catholicism isnt incorrect, but saying that any other religion is incorrect is totally bogus.

You are aware that the opposite of "isnt correct" is "correct"?

A basic fundamental core of Catholicism is that their teachings are the only truth, and that all other religions are at least partially wrong. This is not new, and the pope is not a crazy splinter group, in the Catholic church his teachings are guided by God.

You cannot say that the pope's teaching is wrong without also saying Catholicism is wrong.

Lets take this thought to the logical extreme. In the eternal political debate of the heart, giving help to the needy (Liberal) vs enabling people to mire themselves in government dependancy (Conservative), this is obviously a heated debate. It has many facets and many different battlegrounds, but simplified to the core, this one disagreement is very divisive.

By your words, neither side should call the other side's ideology wrong, which is silly. They are opinions, and there is nothing wrong with calling an alternate opinion "wrong", except good manners and tact. (But behind the Bulls*** and graciousness, we always think the other side is wrong in politics, or both sides if your in the middle, etc)

[alnorth]

When they say they arent finding salvation, are they saying that they're misguided people who are going to hell? Because thats exactly how it sounds, and i think many people that arent catholic would agree.

You can read it however you want, but that isnt what the pope said. Basically Catholicism says that they do not know if other faiths will go to hell, and most Catholics probably believe and hope that other religions will probably find their way to heaven as well. What they believe, is that the Catholic church is the only absolute guarantee.

As religions go, thats pretty mild and open-minded. There are plenty of Christian sects that do say everyone else will go to hell, and those groups are tolerated. I find it interesting that such a mild expression of their belief creates this much reaction.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

The God I believe in accepts everyone, whether they call themselves catholic, baptist, methodist, seventh day adventist, lutheran or anything else. He asks us to believe and trust in him, treat others well, lay our burdens on him and ask forgiveness of our sins. He's not leading a country club up there.

Some people make religion too difficult. The pope is part of the problem imo if this is what he is preaching.

[Hammock Parties]

**** the Pope. He can shove his salvation up his ass. I don't want it.

[Frazod]

Let's see...

Birth control = bad

Hating other Christian religions = good

Thanks.

:shake:

[Mr. Flopnuts]

What happens if Notre Dame plays BYU?



The Irish will play with balls, and BYU will throw plates.

[morphius]

Are some people just trying to be shocked? Catholics can't even partake in the bread and wine at any other church, nor is anyone else allowed to partake in theirs.

[alnorth]

Are some people just trying to be shocked? Catholics can't even partake in the bread and wine at any other church, nor is anyone else allowed to partake in theirs.

I'm having trouble getting it too. Its either manufactured outrage, or a whole lot of ignorance and misunderstanding.

The pope is part of the problem imo if this is what he is preaching.

The pope is preaching that Catholicism is correct, and the other religions are not. Its just a religion asserting their belief. Thats about as shocking as you or I saying that the opinions of Al Franken, Rush Limbaugh, or both are wrong.

Hating other Christian religions = good

I feel like an audience member who was given the message beforehand in that old "telephone" game, where people whisper the message to the next guy, and allowed to hear the mangled screwed-up message at the end of the line of people.

Where did you leap to that conclusion?

[Elwaysux]

I have heard from two different priests that you should not put too much stock into the general press coverage of the Pope's clarifications because they won't get it right. My understanding is that he is allowing for Latin mass which prior to this had to be approved by a bishop. No big deal. His other clarification is that the Catholic church is the only church that can draw a direct line back to Jesus Christ and his apostles. I personally agree that there are too many luke warm Catholics and Catholics need to stop picking and choosing which parts of the faith or what policies the Vatican comes out with that they are going to agree with. As far as long term religious riots from this, think again. There are already quotes from other religious leaders saying "big deal, he feels that way, we feel the way we do about our church". Life goes on. Slow news day.

[JBucc]

Well that settles it then. We're going to have to take out the pope.

[Sully]

The pope doesn't know any more about God's will than I do, or than any person of any faith.

[Hammock Parties]

Well that settles it then. We're going to have to take out the pope.

you provide the rifle and get me within 200 yards and im in, lol. God i really hate how religion can just make people hate eachother...

[L.A. Chieffan]

This seems to be good news for me, I'm Catholic.
Sorry everybody else, have fun down there with all those sodomizing donk fans.

[ClevelandBronco]

This is a story I would like to share. I had a priest growing up in my teens that wouldn't marry a non catholic and a catholic. Or a couple with a baby outside of marriage. He was such a hardass. I always thought. Who the **** are you? Then he got in trouble with a women when I was a senior in high school. Now I learned he is not a priest anymore.

Ideas should never be held responsible for the people who agree with them.

[JBucc]

you provide the rifle and get me within 200 yards and im in, lol. God i really hate how religion can just make people hate eachother...It won't be that easy. He's usually in his Popemobile when he's outside. I think we'll have to infiltrate the Vatican. We might be able to get in if we convert to Catholicism and become Priests. It will take years, but it must be done. Kill the pope, and heaven is ours.

[Hydrae]

Without reading through all the responses on this thread (or either of the two in DC), the Catholics should read their bible. Jesus does not say that there is only one true religion. However he does say this...

John 14:6 (King James Version)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Not by a certain set of rules or the teachings of any man. Through Him and Him alone can you reach God. The Catholic church really needs to get off it's high horse and reexamine teh teachings it is professing to follow.

[Frazod]

I feel like an audience member who was given the message beforehand in that old "telephone" game, where people whisper the message to the next guy, and allowed to hear the mangled screwed-up message at the end of the line of people.

Where did you leap to that conclusion?

Well, I'll tell you. I was forced by my catholic stepfather to go to a catholic school in 2nd and 3rd grade. But my mother insisted that I not convert. Like moving to a new school in second grade wasn't bad enough - on top of that, I got to be the little kid who sat in the back of church during communion and was told by all the other kids that I was going to hell. Did wonders for my social development, let me tell you.

And I've had a real f#cking chip on my shoulder about it for about 35 years now.

So when I hear this doddering old bastard spout crap like he did today, it kind of hits a nerve. When I got married in a catholic church, and had to listen to the priest say "southern baptist" like it was something he had just scraped off the bottom of his shoe, I had to grit my teeth and bear it. I don't have to do that here. I know how hardcore catholics feel about this kind of thing.

At least Der Pope is being honest about it.

[Hammock Parties]

well... ill leave off with saying this. i have the utmost respect for catholics because they believe in god and that he is the salvation, but denouncing all other christian faiths draws the line for me. I dont care what anybody has to say, thats the way it is interpereted...

[HolmeZz]

I'm afraid it was the Mormons. Yes, Mormons were the correct answer.

[ClevelandBronco]

The question would be why do you care what catholics believe. You should be worried about what YOU believe...

True.

Hey, there are Protestants who think that Catholics are outside the "true faith" because they "believe that works are necessary for salvation." (Their words, not mine. Don't even asks for links, google it yourself.)

I don't hear Catholics raising a stink about what those Protestants are saying.

[Hammock Parties]

shit, one reason british people fled over here was to get out of the oppression of the catholic church...

[OnTheWarpath15]

Notre dame has played byu every year.

IIRC, the last meeting was in 2004....

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

The pope is preaching that Catholicism is correct, and the other religions are not. Its just a religion asserting their belief. Thats about as shocking as you or I saying that the opinions of Al Franken, Rush Limbaugh, or both are wrong.




The church I go to (Trinity United Church of Christ) doesn't need to tell other christian religions they are wrong. In fact we join forces with other types of churches on all kinds of things. Christianity is suppossed to bring people together as a family of God... not separate them with such an exclusive and elitist attitude. I kind of doubt that's the way God intended things to be.

[ClevelandBronco]

You can read it however you want, but that isnt what the pope said. Basically Catholicism says that they do not know if other faiths will go to hell, and most Catholics probably believe and hope that other religions will probably find their way to heaven as well. What they believe, is that the Catholic church is the only absolute guarantee...

Think of it as the express lane.

[Chiefnj2]

It's bold idea to go back to the roots of the religion. Will he go back as far as the beginning when there was no Pope?

[ClevelandBronco]

**** the Pope. He can shove his salvation up his ass. I don't want it.

It's difficult to imagine a more unneccessary post. One more on your total.

[BucEyedPea]

It's bold idea to go back to the roots of the religion. Will he go back as far as the beginning when there was no Pope?
You mean in the moments just before Christ made Peter his Vicar on Earth aka the Pope or when Christ was it?

[Mr. Flopnuts]

shit, one reason british people fled over here was to get out of the oppression of the catholic church...



I always thought it was the polar opposite. The Puritans were who came over here. The ones that were too anal retentive to be British. Edumacation in this country sucks.

[Chiefnj2]

You mean in the moments just before Christ made Peter his Vicar on Earth aka the Pope or when Christ was it?
"However, the idea of the "pope" did not exist from the beginning of the church. It was not until several centuries after Christ that the church began to develop into the "Roman Catholic Church" as we think of it today, with its particular doctrines, practices, and hierarchical system of authority. "

[Hammock Parties]

Its just turning back into the "we're better than you, and the only reason you are getting upset about it is because you want to be like us" type attitude for the catholic church, and in this day and age, its not going to work out... sorry

[Frazod]

shit, one reason british people fled over here was to get out of the oppression of the catholic church...

That was the Church of England they were fleeing from, not the Catholic Church.

[HolmeZz]

Who do you got in an all out holy war?

I'd watch out for the Scientologists. They're up and coming, full of youthful exuberance and crazy ideals. They'll definitely have something to prove(like most religions).

[alnorth]

The church I go to (Trinity United Church of Christ) doesn't need to tell other christian religions they are wrong. In fact we join forces with other types of churches on all kinds of things. Christianity is suppossed to bring people together as a family of God... not separate them with such an exclusive and elitist attitude. I kind of doubt that's the way God intended things to be.

So, essentially your only problem is that the Catholic church decided to be honest and publicly express what every religion, including yours, thinks: their way is correct. That, and Catholics act smug, elitist, etc.

The substance of what he said though, shouldnt be controversial at all. Go to a place of worship for the Mormon, Jewish, and Baptist religion, ask the local religious leader if their faith is correct, and they will say yes. Ask the Catholic church the same question, and you get all this silly fake outrage. I can only surmise that its because they have the most famous highly-visible religious leader and the largest buildings, but the pope expressing what nearly every other faith also believes.

[Hammock Parties]

That was the Church of England they were fleeing from, not the Catholic Church.

but the church of england was mainly catholocism right? im probably wrong, as usual...

[BucEyedPea]

"However, the idea of the "pope" did not exist from the beginning of the church. It was not until several centuries after Christ that the church began to develop into the "Roman Catholic Church" as we think of it today, with its particular doctrines, practices, and hierarchical system of authority. "

That's a non RCC interpretation.
Christ singled out Peter from the rest of the Apostles for special consideration and authority by making him the head of the Church on earth. Vicar just means he represents a higher authority. Thus Christ gave the church authority, via Peter at first, by saying: "Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth, it shall be bound also in heaven; ..." This means the Church's doctrines and structure continue to develop. The Bible didn't just end at some point. In fact there was no Bible for over 300 something years too. It was the RCC that compiled the first Bible. There was only one Christian church for a long time.

Not saying you have to agree, just saying what the pov of the RCC is.

[alnorth]

but the church of england was mainly catholocism right?

I believe the church of England was created because the Catholic Church would not agree to annull a marriage for some King, so he created his own church and appointed himself the supreme head of that new religion.

[Frazod]

but the church of england was mainly catholocism right? im probably wrong, as usual...

It was dominated by the king/queen, not the pope.

So pretty much the same deal, only with a different asshole grinding the huddled masses under boot in the name of God.

[ClevelandBronco]

I believe the church of England was created because the Catholic Church would not agree to annull a marriage for some King, so he created his own church and appointed himself the supreme head of that new religion.

Henry VIII

[Hammock Parties]

religion is too much like a ****ing cult and personally, i dont really think thats how god intended it to be... Human error has totally ****ed things up to where an honest person cant worship in his own ****ing way without being told by "the true church" that hes doing it wrong and if he continues, hes going to hell...

[BucEyedPea]

It was dominated by the king/queen, not the pope.

So pretty much the same deal, only with a different asshole divorcing his wives or cutting off their heads in the name of wanting an heir and a spare.

[Mr. Laz]

Friendly, Charitable, Caring yes... but they should not give the false idea that the Catholic church would reconize them as valid or hold that they would have the way to salvation as well.. that has been happening way too much..

the church must Stand up for all of its teachings at all times.
including that fact that any Hand that touches swine should be deemed unclean and thus removed?

eat pork ..... cut your hands off



oh yea ... i forgot ..... man decided to CHANGE GOD'S WORD when it came to that part.

among many other changes


i need to meet that human smart enough to ERASE the spoken because they feel it's not current.

[Frazod]

Yeah, that too. :)

[HolmeZz]

Piggies are da debil.

[Sully]

Are some people just trying to be shocked? Catholics can't even partake in the bread and wine at any other church, nor is anyone else allowed to partake in theirs.
I thnk the point of all these threads about this , though they have all turned to a different argument, is asking the question,"Why now? Why at this point in history, when it seems that we as a world are becoming torn apart more and more, was it important to restate something to add to the divisiveness." We all know where catholics stand on other religions and other denominations, but what is the point of making it clear to everyone again how wrong they believe the majority of the world is?

[alnorth]

religion is too much like a ****ing cult and personally, i dont really think thats how god intended it to be... Human error has totally ****ed things up to where an honest person cant worship in his own ****ing way without being told by "the true church" that hes doing it wrong and if he continues, hes going to hell...

I give up and call BS. This is fake outrage.

[alnorth]

I thnk the point of all these threads about this , though they have all turned to a different argument, is asking the question,"Why now? Why at this point in history, when it seems that we as a world are becoming torn apart more and more, was it important to restate something to add to the divisiveness." We all know where catholics stand on other religions and other denominations, but what is the point of making it clear to everyone again how wrong they believe the majority of the world is?

This isnt for the benefit of people outside the church, this was a message intended for Catholics. If other religions are being shocked and outraged at a reaffirmation of internal Catholic teachings, thats their problem, they should get over it, and mind their own business.

[Hammock Parties]

I give up and call BS. This is fake outrage.

fake outrage? how the hell is it fake outrage? I think you're backing off the subject because you know what im saying is true

[BucEyedPea]

I would disagree..

People bitch and moan to Rome because they will not change, people expect to make the Catholic church into what they want it to be, instead of letting Catholics practice their faith they are always under attack for one thing or another,

If Someone is not Catholic No problem, let the Pope run his church however God Guides him, if someone is Catholic- Shut up and Live your faith as the church Teaches it.. its a Religion
religion is pretty much All or Nothing, Stop complaining, if you dont Like it Dont call yourself Catholic.
They act as though the man put a gun to their head to believe.
While at the same time, telling him and his church what they should believe and it should be all the same...unity.
Classic projection.

[alnorth]

fake outrage? how the hell is it fake outrage? I think you're backing off the subject because you know what im saying is true

I call it fake outrage because your arguement is silly, and I have to give you more credit than to say that you really are feeling what you type.

[Hammock Parties]

This isnt for the benefit of people outside the church, this was a message intended for Catholics. If other religions are being shocked and outraged at a reaffirmation of internal Catholic teachings, thats their problem, they should get over it, and mind their own business.

mind our own business? wow, but whos ****ing business is it to say that we're doingthings wrong? how boutthe catholics mind their own ****ing business?

[ClevelandBronco]

mind our own business? wow, but whos ****ing business is it to say that we're doingthings wrong? how boutthe catholics mind their own ****ing business?

Dude. Settle. We don't believe the pope speaks for God. Why should we be upset?

[BucEyedPea]

mind our own business? wow, but whos ****ing business is it to say that we're doingthings wrong? how boutthe catholics mind their own ****ing business?
Why aren't you minding your business.
No one is forcing you to believe in the RC.

[alnorth]

mind our own business? wow, but whos ****ing business is it to say that we're doingthings wrong? how boutthe catholics mind their own ****ing business?

They are. This is the leader of the church reminding observant catholics of one of the fundamental cores of their beliefs, a belief that damned near every religion holds to some degree and should not be remotely shocking. (Our way is correct, other religions are not)

If you happened to overhear the message and get upset about it for whatever bizarre reason, thats your own problem.

[Hammock Parties]

catholics... your pope is wrong... im done.

[RJ]

What's the big deal? All religions think other religions are faulty at best and false at worst. I'm not Catholic but I think the Pope is speaking to his own and telling them not to stray. He's not dogging the rest of the religious world. Every organized religion says my beliefs are wrong and that I'm going to hell. I don't take offense.....I think they're full of crap, but I don't take offense.

[Hammock Parties]

its a wonder why catholocism is one of the most hated religions in the world...

[Hammock Parties]

What's the big deal? All religions think other religions are faulty at best and false at worst. I'm not Catholic but I think the Pope is speaking to his own and telling them not to stray. He's not dogging the rest of the religious world. Every organized religion says my beliefs are wrong and that I'm going to hell. I don't take offense.....I think they're full of crap, but I don't take offense.

im taking offense because im the type that believes that anybody who believes in god already has their ticket punched into heaven...

[alnorth]

its a wonder why catholocism is one of the most hated religions in the world...

Eh?

http://www.nisbett.com/symbols/images/star-d1.gif

[Hammock Parties]

Eh?

http://www.nisbett.com/symbols/images/star-d1.gif

ok, you got me on the jewish bit, but my sentiment still stands.

[ClevelandBronco]

catholics... your pope is wrong... im done.

Well, that was kind of the idea behind the Protestant reformation.

[alnorth]

im taking offense because im the type that believes that anybody who believes in god already has their ticket punched into heaven...

I expect to see a diatribe against the Mormons and Muslims of the world. They say you have absolutely no chance and your already doomed if you dont convert.

The Catholics are merely saying they dont know about anyone else.

[RJ]

im taking offense because im the type that believes that anybody who believes in god already has their ticket punched into heaven...



Then you believe something different than damn near every organized religion is preaching. And I'm pretty sure the Pope isn't making this proclamation to piss off Protestants and Jews and Muslims, etc.. He's letting his own flock know that the path to eternal salvation is through Catholicism.

Not my belief, just the way I view it. He is publicly stating something that was already obvious.

[KC Kings]

The ironic part about this, is that it was the non-scriptural stories and traditions that have no basis in Christianity that caused the catholic church to split up in the first place.

It's the same thing as a group of football fans leaving Chiefsplanet and starting their own message board that talks only about football. Then Chiefsplanet announces that we are the only true football message board, even though the majority of our content is non-football related.

[Baby Lee]

Let's see...

Birth control = bad

Hating other Christian religions = good

Thanks.

:shake:
Lose your specs again?

I honestly don't get it. I've never in my life cared what other religions thought about me and my salvation. And although I believe in a peculiarity to what I've received, I've never looked down on anyone for thinking differently.

But then, a goodly portion of that 'peculiarity' of mine is a strong emphasis on eternal judgment being the Lord's sole province, and for me to tread there is as surely a sin as anything I'd presume to judge.

[Hammock Parties]

Then you believe something different than damn near every organized religion is preaching. And I'm pretty sure the Pope isn't making this proclamation to piss off Protestants and Jews and Muslims, etc.. He's letting his own flock know that the path to eternal salvation is through Catholicism.

Not my belief, just the way I view it. He is publicly stating something that was already obvious.

well, it didnt need to be stated, because i feel it will piss off every other religion... If the catholic church truely believes so, and has believed so for ever, whats the point in restating it? The world hates eachother enough as it is...

[ClevelandBronco]

Lose your specs again?

I honestly don't get it. I've never in my life cared what other religions thought about me and my salvation. And although I believe in a peculiarity to what I've received, I've never looked down on anyone for thinking differently.

But then, a goodly portion of that 'peculiarity' of mine is a strong emphasis on eternal judgment being the Lord's sole province, and for me to tread there is as surely a sin as anything I'd presume to judge.

Bravo!

[Baby Lee]

you provide the rifle and get me within 200 yards and im in, lol. God i really hate how religion can just make people hate eachother...
Between you and the Pope, who's the one proposing assassination again?

[alnorth]

well, it didnt need to be stated, because i feel it will piss off every other religion... If the catholic church truely believes so, and has believed so for ever, whats the point in restating it? The world hates eachother enough as it is...

Because many Catholics were beginning to incorrectly believe that their faith taught something else. They needed to be told what it really meant to be Catholic so that they could follow or leave.

[Hammock Parties]

Between you and the Pope, who's the one proposing assassination again?

it was a little joke that i was rolling along with

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

So, essentially your only problem is that the Catholic church decided to be honest and publicly express what every religion, including yours, thinks: their way is correct. That, and Catholics act smug, elitist, etc.

The substance of what he said though, shouldnt be controversial at all. Go to a place of worship for the Mormon, Jewish, and Baptist religion, ask the local religious leader if their faith is correct, and they will say yes. Ask the Catholic church the same question, and you get all this silly fake outrage. I can only surmise that its because they have the most famous highly-visible religious leader and the largest buildings, but the pope expressing what nearly every other faith also believes.
Ok I'm not going to argue with you about it. This is why so many people are turned off by the catholic church. God wasn't smug and elitist as you say. I don't think any church should be either. I don't hear other churches boasting they that are the only way to heaven like the pope is doing. They may do it, but I haven't heard it and if I did I would call bs on them too.

[Baby Lee]

Who do you got in an all out holy war?

I'd watch out for the Scientologists. They're up and coming, full of youthful exuberance and crazy ideals. They'll definitely have something to prove(like most religions).
And they closet all those high-profile gheys until they're jumping on couches and doing movies in drag.
All that pent up frustration has to deliver somehow.

[Hammock Parties]

Because many Catholics were beginning to incorrectly believe that their faith taught something else. They needed to be told what it really meant to be Catholic so that they could follow or leave.

many a higher ups, from what i understand, were encouraged with the modernization of the catholic church, feeling it was taking a huge step forward...

[KC Kings]

I disagree. The catholic church must stand out as the one true religion. The bread becomes Christ during mass as the wine turns to the Blood. There needs to be a clear distinction between the one true religion and others.

Are you being sarcastic?

It is pretty obvious that the last supper was symbolic, and not Jesus literally feeding his blood and flesh to the disciples. I guess I could see how poorly educated Greek speaking priest forced to read the bible in Latin 1800 years ago could misinterpret that, but now days when we are able to read the words for ourselves it is quite plainly a metaphor.

Does the catholic church also believe that a camel can walk through the eye of a needle, or that men walk around with logs in thier eyes? Jesus told those stories also.

[DaneMcCloud]

im taking offense because im the type that believes that anybody who believes in god already has their ticket punched into heaven...

And according to the "Authority", the Catholic Church, you are wrong. The Catholic Church is doing nothing other than flexing their muscle.

For almost 1500 years, the Catholic Church was the most powerful organization on the planet. The Church held the only keys to Heaven. They tortured, mutilated and killed in the name of their Church stating they were doing it in the name of God. They exerted their power over Kings and Queens, Dukes and Duchesses, entire countries and regions.

The church lost members once the King of England broke off from Rome. And since then, there have been countless number of churches claiming the road to salvation.

No one knows if RCC or any of the factions are right or wrong and no one will until death. But what the "hardline" Pope is stating is nothing new; he believes (as most Catholics believe) the path to Heaven is through their doors.

Being a former Catholic and currently a non-believer, I don't see any reason to be offended. Your faith should be between you and your God, regardless of what others may feel.

And that's all that should matter.

[Baby Lee]

Are you being sarcastic?

It is pretty obvious that the last supper was symbolic, and not Jesus literally feeding his blood and flesh to the disciples. I guess I could see how poorly educated Greek speaking priest forced to read the bible in Latin 1800 years ago could misinterpret that, but now days when we are able to read the words for ourselves it is quite plainly a metaphor.

Does the catholic church also believe that a camel can walk through the eye of a needle, or that men walk around with logs in thier eyes? Jesus told those stories also.
Google: Transubstantiation.

[BucEyedPea]

Because many Catholics were beginning to incorrectly believe that their faith taught something else. They needed to be told what it really meant to be Catholic so that they could follow or leave.
Bingo!
It's not a democracy...it is dogma which means one is compelled to believe in it's tenets as truth.

[Hammock Parties]

as catholics, do you believe im not going to heaven because im not catholic?

[alnorth]

I don't hear other churches boasting they that are the only way to heaven like the pope is doing. They may do it, but I haven't heard it and if I did I would call bs on them too.

Well, its not really a boast if the church truely believes it, and believe some followers are putting themselves in spiritual danger.

As far as other religions, its a pretty long list representing billions of people who arent exactly quiet about their opinions about outsiders.

As I said, to me the Catholics seem tolerant as far as religions go, they only believe that I *might* go to hell, or I just might still somehow make it to heaven if I'm a nice enough guy and God decides to forgive my willful ignorance.

Most of the rest of the religious world thinks I'm going to burn. They shouldnt earn brownie points for being disingenuous.

[Baby Lee]

as catholics, do you believe im not going to heaven because im not catholic?
Not a Catholic, but;
Can you envision a system of belief wherein believes that there is a narrow path that must be trod to avoid losing your way to salvation, . . . as a general principle, . . . but also simultaneously believes that weighing the relative merits of the choices made in the lives of others is a sinful act?

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Well, its not really a boast if the church truely believes it, and believe some followers are putting themselves in spiritual danger.

As far as other religions, its a pretty long list representing billions of people who arent exactly quiet about their opinions about outsiders.

As I said, to me the Catholics seem tolerant as far as religions go, they only believe that I *might* go to hell, or I just might still somehow make it to heaven if I'm a nice enough guy and God decides to forgive my willful ignorance.

Most of the rest of the religious world thinks I'm going to burn. They shouldnt earn brownie points for being disingenuous.
You may be right. I just don't think the pope is helping in any way with his comments.. but hey that's why I'm not catholic. That and a lot of other reasons.

[Oh Snap]

Shouldn't they be worrying about not molesting altar boys instead?
haha... i was thinking the same thing.

[Oh Snap]

as catholics, do you believe im not going to heaven because im not catholic?
you go to purgatory... the thing between heaven and hell.. (i think, im not catholic though)

[Jenson71]

This is one of the worst butcherings of a message by the media that I've ever seen. :(

[Frazod]

Lose your specs again?

I honestly don't get it. I've never in my life cared what other religions thought about me and my salvation. And although I believe in a peculiarity to what I've received, I've never looked down on anyone for thinking differently.

But then, a goodly portion of that 'peculiarity' of mine is a strong emphasis on eternal judgment being the Lord's sole province, and for me to tread there is as surely a sin as anything I'd presume to judge.

Check post 57. I'm bitter from way back. Nothing will ever make it better.

[Frazod]

Seriously, though, f*ck KU.

Amen.

[Saulbadguy]

psychos.

[Hammock Parties]

I don't even care about the content of these announcements. Just the sheer fact they try to dictate to the rest of the world is incredibly arrogant. It would be like the Jehovah's Witnesses having their own TV channel. JWTV!

[plbrdude]

Without reading through all the responses on this thread (or either of the two in DC), the Catholics should read their bible. Jesus does not say that there is only one true religion. However he does say this...

John 14:6 (King James Version)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Not by a certain set of rules or the teachings of any man. Through Him and Him alone can you reach God. The Catholic church really needs to get off it's high horse and reexamine teh teachings it is professing to follow.



you've made a very good point there mr hydrae.

Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

i put the next three verses up there to further illustrate what you said with your post. when you go to Jesus, you are going to God. through him and him alone will you find salvation.

[CHENZ A!]

hooray for Catholicism! :BLVD:

[Oh Snap]

Check post 57. I'm bitter from way back. Nothing will ever make it better.
didnt you kill staff Sgt. Gunny and then blow a hole through your head.... Jokers ruined for life after seeing that.

[Frazod]

didnt you kill staff Sgt. Gunny and then blow a hole through your head.... Jokers ruined for life after seeing that.

Yeah, I'm sociopathic like that.

[milkman]

So when I hear this doddering old bastard spout crap like he did today, it kind of hits a nerve. When I got married in a catholic church, and had to listen to the priest say "southern baptist" like it was something he had just scraped off the bottom of his shoe, I had to grit my teeth and bear it.

Why did you have to "grit your teeth and bear it"?

[Frazod]

Why did you have to "grit your teeth and bear it"?

Because the wife's parents are Catholic. They insisted the wedding be in their church. It would have been bad had I not gone along with it. But I sure as hell didn't want to.

[Jenson71]

Well, I'll tell you. I was forced by my catholic stepfather to go to a catholic school in 2nd and 3rd grade. But my mother insisted that I not convert. Like moving to a new school in second grade wasn't bad enough - on top of that, I got to be the little kid who sat in the back of church during communion and was told by all the other kids that I was going to hell. Did wonders for my social development, let me tell you.

And I've had a real f#cking chip on my shoulder about it for about 35 years now.

You always seemed tougher than that.

[ClevelandBronco]

I don't even care about the content of these announcements. Just the sheer fact they try to dictate to the rest of the world is incredibly arrogant. It would be like the Jehovah's Witnesses having their own TV channel. JWTV!

He's dictating to Catholics, you colossal moron. Sorry you heard the message, but it wasn't meant for you.

EDIT: Colossal. One "L." Well, two. Not three.

[milkman]

Because the wife's parents are Catholic. They insisted the wedding be in their church. It would have been bad had I not gone along with it. But I sure as hell didn't want to.

My wife would never have expected me to remain quiet if someone had acted in that manner.

[Logical]

I posted this in one of the other threads I might as well post it here too:
I love this Pope.

The reason for this statement is that too many Catholics have been preaching false ecuminism, they had become too friendly with other religions, some had even doubted the dogma of- Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus -

B16 by affirming that the Traditional Extraordinary Mass of the Roman Rite was never Abolished or forbidden, he is fighting the heresy of modernism and plans to restore the Catholic church to its full glory, Put an end to all the liberalism in the church.

We will now see the Liberals true colors, by confirming this a Catholic Dogma, and by restoring the Traditional Mass to its proper place, those Catholics that disagree will throw fits even though this has not affected them, if they have a problem with any of this then they are Heretic's and the truth must resound.

These liberal hypocrites will act as though the Pope is a renegade. Their point is that Popes John and Paul were led by GOD to carry the Church into the Second Vatican Council. Now they will somehow have to make the case that THIS pope is NOT being led by God. They will try, but their hypocrisy will come shining through, as it always does.

Those liberals are just bitter and obnoxious people if they object to this, because the point will be that no one has any reasons whatsoever to object. Those who have a kneejerk reaction to anything "pre-Vatican 2" can solve their problem by just staying away from it. They already have their Mass. They need to shut their liberal mouths if they object to this and let the traditional Catholics finally be pastorally cared for.


You may be happy but 100s of thousands possibly millions worldwide of Catholics won't be and they will become dissaffected and possibly even leave the RCC.

[Frazod]

You always seemed tougher than that.
I was seven. New school, new town, automatically ostracized, no friends, no support. It was great fun, really. I'm assuming you didn't try it.

[Frazod]

My wife would never have expected me to remain quiet if someone had acted in that manner.

She didn't; they did. I played along. It sucked. Obviously haven't been back since.

[milkman]

She didn't; they did. I played along. It sucked. Obviously haven't been back since.

My wife has always put me ahead of her family, as she should.

[Logical]

You mean in the moments just before Christ made Peter his Vicar on Earth aka the Pope or when Christ was it?I guess I missed that in the Bible can you point it out?

[SLAG]

Boy did this thread take off after I left.. I have not even checked the other two threads..

You may be happy but 100s of thousands possibly millions worldwide of Catholics won't be and they will become dissaffected and possibly even leave the RCC.

Logical-

If this is the case then that might actually be better for the Faith in the long run Remember Jesus States that if you are Lukewarm he will Spew you from his mouth, If those that left the church over things like this might not have had any business in the Church in the first place I feel this way mostly because of the church's belief on Transubstantiation, something that hurts me the most is to know that I have recieved the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin and to watch others do it really honestly makes me sick to my stomach when I know that its happening. the best case senario is for those that want to leave over this is to recieve proper catichisis so that they may understand the fullnes of our faith.

Others-
I'm sorry for the hatred in this thread, especially if I contributed to it in any other way. It is sad that some cannot have adult conversations about Religion.

For Answers to alot of Questions about the Catholic Faith I would like to Point you to some good Resources and some have the Impurmater of Bishops of the church.

First off

Catholic Answers:
http://www.catholic.com or http://forums.catholic.com

also for those that deem the BIBLE as the only authorty on any matter check out this site

Scripture Catholic:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com
Gives the Bible references to all of our beliefs

CatholiCity.com:
www.catholiccity.com
(Free catholic CDs and Books)

If you find yourself interested in the Catholic church and still want more info please see your local Priest, or I can help you if you are in the area

I will be more than happy to answer any other questions here or in PM or via any of the Instant Messangers.

May God bless you http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/religious/crossrc.gif

[Hammock Parties]

He's dictating to Catholics, you colossal moron. Sorry you heard the message, but it wasn't meant for you.

EDIT: Colossal. One "L." Well, two. Not three.

It's still an arrogant load of shit.

[Tribal Warfare]

Everything seemed to be going fairly well between the different christian religions, why the hell do they gotta go and throw a wrench into the gears?


I say It's the damn Nazi upbringing :D

[Logical]

The ironic part about this, is that it was the non-scriptural stories and traditions that have no basis in Christianity that caused the catholic church to split up in the first place.

It's the same thing as a group of football fans leaving Chiefsplanet and starting their own message board that talks only about football. Then Chiefsplanet announces that we are the only true football message board, even though the majority of our content is non-football related.Sacrilege I tellyou, I cast thee out if a non-believer.

[Hammock Parties]

Can a Catholic tell me what human flesh tastes like? I've always wanted to know. You ever slip some in your pocket and go home and BBQ it up a bit?

[SLAG]

Can a Catholic tell me what human flesh tastes like? I've always wanted to know. You ever slip some in your pocket and go home and BBQ it up a bit?

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

[Hammock Parties]

That doesn't answer my question. Does it taste like chicken?

[ClevelandBronco]

I guess I missed that in the Bible can you point it out?

John 21:15-23 (New International Version)


15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?"
"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."

16Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?"
He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."

17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you."

Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. 18 I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!"

20Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is going to betray you?") 21When Peter saw him, he asked, "Lord, what about him?"

22Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

[Hammock Parties]

im glad you could join us logical

[Hammock Parties]

Boy did this thread take off after I left.. I have not even checked the other two threads..



Logical-

If this is the case then that might actually be better for the Faith in the long run Remember Jesus States that if you are Lukewarm he will Spew you from his mouth, If those that left the church over things like this might not have had any business in the Church in the first place I feel this way mostly because of the church's belief on Transubstantiation, something that hurts me the most is to know that I have recieved the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin and to watch others do it really honestly makes me sick to my stomach when I know that its happening. the best case senario is for those that want to leave over this is to recieve proper catichisis so that they may understand the fullnes of our faith.

Others-
I'm sorry for the hatred in this thread, especially if I contributed to it in any other way. It is sad that some cannot have adult conversations about Religion.

For Answers to alot of Questions about the Catholic Faith I would like to Point you to some good Resources and some have the Impurmater of Bishops of the church.

First off

Catholic Answers:
http://www.catholic.com or http://forums.catholic.com

also for those that deem the BIBLE as the only authorty on any matter check out this site

Scripture Catholic:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com
Gives the Bible references to all of our beliefs

CatholiCity.com:
www.catholiccity.com
(Free catholic CDs and Books)

If you find yourself interested in the Catholic church and still want more info please see your local Priest, or I can help you if you are in the area

I will be more than happy to answer any other questions here or in PM or via any of the Instant Messangers.

May God bless you http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/religious/crossrc.gif


woah there buddy, i cant help it if i take offense to being told i am doing things wrong and that im going to go to hell... Come on now mr . catholic...

[Logical]

Boy did this thread take off after I left.. I have not even checked the other two threads..



Logical-

If this is the case then that might actually be better for the Faith in the long run Remember Jesus States that if you are Lukewarm he will Spew you from his mouth, If those that left the church over things like this might not have had any business in the Church in the first place I feel this way mostly because of the church's belief on Transubstantiation, something that hurts me the most is to know that I have recieved the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin and to watch others do it really honestly makes me sick to my stomach when I know that its happening. the best case senario is for those that want to leave over this is to recieve proper catichisis so that they may understand the fullnes of our faith.

Others-
I'm sorry for the hatred in this thread, especially if I contributed to it in any other way. It is sad that some cannot have adult conversations about Religion.

For Answers to alot of Questions about the Catholic Faith I would like to Point you to some good Resources and some have the Impurmater of Bishops of the church.

First off

Catholic Answers:
http://www.catholic.com or http://forums.catholic.com

also for those that deem the BIBLE as the only authorty on any matter check out this site

Scripture Catholic:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com
Gives the Bible references to all of our beliefs

CatholiCity.com:
www.catholiccity.com (http://www.catholiccity.com)
(Free catholic CDs and Books)

If you find yourself interested in the Catholic church and still want more info please see your local Priest, or I can help you if you are in the area

I will be more than happy to answer any other questions here or in PM or via any of the Instant Messangers.

May God bless you http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/religious/crossrc.gif

I find your response somewhat funny in that I was a Catholic up until I was about 19 when I left the Church. I was fully indoctrinated receiving all the sacraments save Holy Matrimony and Last Rites. I know that most of the Catholics were and still are happy that the mass is in English and frankly I am old enough to have been forced to attend many a Latin mass and nothing could be less spiritual for someone who does not speak latin. I am sure many of the other traditions of the Church being re-embraced will be quite popular but the latin mass won't be one of them.

[SLAG]

woah there buddy, i cant help it if i take offense to being told i am doing things wrong and that im going to go to hell... Come on now mr . catholic...


Once again you fail to understand the point of this letter and whom it was addressed to.

if you are not Catholic this letter is not for you.

pretty straight forward here hes not telling YOU anything

[Logical]

John 21:15-23 (New International Version)


15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?"
"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."

16Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?"
He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."

17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you."

Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. 18 I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!"

20Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is going to betray you?") 21When Peter saw him, he asked, "Lord, what about him?"

22Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
Sorry but I don't see Jesus saying Peter you will be the vicar of my Church or anything close to what BEP said in those verses.

[ClevelandBronco]

Sorry but I don't see Jesus saying Peter you will be the vicar of my Church or anything close to what BEP said in those verses.

Take it up with her. I'm not a Catholic.

[Hammock Parties]

Once again you fail to understand the point of this letter and whom it was addressed to.

if you are not Catholic this letter is not for you.

pretty straight forward here hes not telling YOU anything

then why let it be spread throughout the world, saying that catholocism is the only way to salvation, when its not at all. How the hell do you not get the underlying meaning that all other religions dont lead to salvation? I dont give a flying **** if it was meant for my ears or not, cause i heard them and i dont like the message...

[Logical]

Once again you fail to understand the point of this letter and whom it was addressed to.

if you are not Catholic this letter is not for you.

pretty straight forward here hes not telling YOU anythingSlag, if I may respectfully disagree, by saying only RCC doctrine is correct, the Pope is saying all other religions are incorrect and thus indirectly is telling all who are not RC that they are wrong.

[Iowanian]

Ahhhh.

Nothing like a good Catholic Bash.

People outraged by this, who aren't Catholic sound like the "spider's" on donkeyminge whining because Carl P says the Chiefs are the best team in Football.

[Logical]

Take it up with her. I'm not a Catholic.:p May I point out that I did take it up with her, you attempted to intercept and help.

[Hammock Parties]

then why let it be spread throughout the world, saying that catholocism is the only way to salvation, when its not at all. How the hell do you not get the underlying meaning that all other religions dont lead to salvation? I dont give a flying **** if it was meant for my ears or not, cause i heard them and i dont like the message...
that and hes telling the catholics, look down upon them, cause they arent doing it our way, feel sorry for them, cause they're going to hell... Hes trying to get catholics to think less of anybody that isnt catholic... Biggotry at its finest....

[Hammock Parties]

Slag, if I may respectfully disagree, by saying only RCC doctrine is correct, the Pope is saying all other religions are incorrect and thus indirectly is telling all who are not RC that they are wrong.

freaking exactly...

[Logical]

Ahhhh.

Nothing like a good Catholic Bash.

People outraged by this, who aren't Catholic sound like the "spider's" on donkeyminge whining because Carl P says the Chiefs are the best team in Football.Actually most people are not bashing Catholics but what the Pope has said. If you would actually read the thread you would know that.

[SLAG]

I find your response somewhat funny in that I was a Catholic up until I was about 19 when I left the Church. I was fully indoctrinated receiving all the sacraments save Holy Matrimony and Last Rites. I know that most of the Catholics were and still are happy that the mass is in English and frankly I am old enough to have been forced to attend many a Latin mass and nothing could be less spiritual for someone who does not speak latin. I am sure many of the other traditions of the Church being re-embraced will be quite popular but the latin mass won't be one of them.

I'm sorry to hear of your fall from the faith, but i strongly dis agree that the latin mass will not be embraced, fact of the matter is that Latin mass community's are the Catholic parish's growing by leaps and bounds, and the reason for the growth is YOUNG couples, if you were to read Summorum Pontificum the Motu Proprio that just came out you would see that the Young people are one of the 3 reasons for re-enabling the Classic Mass. St. Frances de Sales Oratory in St.Louis is a Latin Mass Parish that has a normal Sunday attendance of over 1000.

[ClevelandBronco]

then why let it be spread throughout the world, saying that catholocism is the only way to salvation, when its not at all. How the hell do you not get the underlying meaning that all other religions dont lead to salvation? I dont give a flying **** if it was meant for my ears or not, cause i heard them and i dont like the message...

How can you know what you say in the bolded part?

[SPchief]

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT

[ClevelandBronco]

Slag, if I may respectfully disagree, by saying only RCC doctrine is correct, the Pope is saying all other religions are incorrect and thus indirectly is telling all who are not RC that they are wrong.

That's the man's job.

[Logical]

that and hes telling the catholics, look down upon them, cause they arent doing it our way, feel sorry for them, cause they're going to hell... Hes trying to get catholics to think less of anybody that isnt catholic... Biggotry at its finest....OK this I must disagree with, I don't find that message in his words. Can you point it out to me, with a quote?

[ClevelandBronco]

:p May I point out that I did take it up with her, you attempted to intercept and help.

You're welcome.

[Logical]

That's the man's job.Not wanting to debate with you may I again point out that my point was at issue with what Slag said, not the Benedict's statement. Though I disagree with what Benedict has done because he is basically saying all other Christians are not really Christians.

[Hammock Parties]

How can you know what you say in the bolded part?

because my faith believes that anybody who embraces god can and will go to heaven, not just people of one religion. Ive never said that catholocism is wrong at all, but i dont feel its right for the head of the catholic church to say that in his "opinion", anybody who belongs to any other religion is not going to make it to heaven. i thought we put biggotry behind us?

[|Zach|]

This seems much ado about nothing. It is their circus. The ring master is free to say and do as he pleases.

When it comes to religious type stuff I am big into sphere's of influence. They have their own sphere with their own world...as long as their actions don't spill over to my sphere and have an effect on what myself or others are doing with their daily lives I see a no problem.

Strange way to explain that...I know.

[SLAG]

Slag, if I may respectfully disagree, by saying only RCC doctrine is correct, the Pope is saying all other religions are incorrect and thus indirectly is telling all who are not RC that they are wrong.


This is and always has been the Catholic Teaching

once again this is OLD news
the reason he sent the message world wide was because the Catholic faith is the Largest Christian Faith in the world, some of these Catholics had been preaching Heresy and this must stop.

Jayhawker-
your ears heard it but your outrage aganst it is unnessacary as you are not Catholic. This is not New Catholic Teaching.

[|Zach|]

because my faith believes that anybody who embraces god can and will go to heaven, not just people of one religion. Ive never said that catholocism is wrong at all, but i dont feel its right for the head of the catholic church to say that in his "opinion", anybody who belongs to any other religion is not going to make it to heaven. i thought we put biggotry behind us?
What do you care what faith they hold? It is not keeping you from doing anything in your daily life or practicing your faith as you see fit.

Seriously? It isn't your bag, thats fine. Whats with all the drama?

[ClevelandBronco]

because my faith believes that anybody who embraces god can and will go to heaven, not just people of one religion. Ive never said that catholocism is wrong at all, but i dont feel its right for the head of the catholic church to say that in his "opinion", anybody who belongs to any other religion is not going to make it to heaven. i thought we put biggotry behind us?

If he's right, it's not bigotry, IMO. It's tough love.

[SLAG]

because my faith believes that anybody who embraces god can and will go to heaven, not just people of one religion. Ive never said that catholocism is wrong at all, but i dont feel its right for the head of the catholic church to say that in his "opinion", anybody who belongs to any other religion is not going to make it to heaven. i thought we put biggotry behind us?


Once again this is NOT his "Opinion"

Please see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_Nulla_Salus

[Logical]

I'm sorry to hear of your fall from the faith, but i strongly dis agree that the latin mass will not be embraced, fact of the matter is that Latin mass community's are the Catholic parish's growing by leaps and bounds, and the reason for the growth is YOUNG couples, if you were to read Summorum Pontificum the Motu Proprio that just came out you would see that the Young people are one of the 3 reasons for re-enabling the Classic Mass. St. Frances de Sales Oratory in St.Louis is a Latin Mass Parish that has a normal Sunday attendance of over 1000.


While I won't dispute your statement because neither of us have the statistical data to disprove the belief of the other, I severely doubt that most US and European Catholics want to revert to the latin mass. Time will tell.

[Hammock Parties]

OK this I must disagree with, I don't find that message in his words. Can you point it out to me, with a quote?

thats the underlying message, not exactly whats quoted.

[Hammock Parties]

Once again this is NOT his "Opinion"

Please see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_Nulla_Salus

so its what he feels to be the truth? it doesnt matter, its his feeling on another group of people. be it his opinion, or his feeling...

[Hammock Parties]

Maybe like a baked ham?

[SLAG]

While I won't dispute your statement because neither of us have the statistical data to disprove the belief of the other, I severely doubt that most US and European Catholics want to revert to the latin mass. Time will tell.


here is a parody of what us Latin Mass-ers see unfolding..



The Coca Cola Company allows production of "Coca Cola Classic"
By John Thavis Coca Cola News Service

ATLANTA (CNS) -- In a long-awaited overture to disaffected soda traditionalists, the president of the Coca Cola Company allowed limited production of "Coca Cola Classic," the original formula soft drink which was recently replaced by New Coke.

The president said the Classic formula should be made available in to consumers who desire it. He said that while New Coke, introduced a few months ago, will remain the flagship product of the brand, Classic Coke should be considered "the extraordinary form of the Coca Cola product."

This reintroduction implies no failure of the New Coke production and marketing plan, but simply "two variations on the one flagship Coca Cola product." The president's directive came July 7 in a four-page letter to bottlers titled "Introducing Coca Cola Classic." The old formula will begin appearing in bottles and cans--not in fountains--Sept. 14. An accompanying personal letter from the president dismissed fears that the decisions would foment divisions among Coke drinkers or be seen as a retreat from the New Coke campaign.

The president said New Coke would certainly remain the company's predominant product. Drinking Coca Cola Classic presupposes a certain degree of sophistication and traditional preferences and "neither of these is found very often," he said. But the president expressed sympathy with consumers who are attached to the old Coke formula and uncomfortable with New Coke.

In the period since the introduction of New Coke, he said, excessive, Pepsi-like sweetness often led to "unfinished bottles and unsatisfactory mixes with rum and bourbon which were hard to bear.""I am speaking from experience, since I, too, lived through that period with all its hopes and confusion. And I have seen how arbitrary changes in the formula caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the old formula," he said.

The president noted that many older consumers have a long connection with the Classic formula. But in recent years, he said, it has been clearly demonstrated that young people are also attracted by the old formula.

By widening its availability, the president said, he hoped to make the new and old Coca Cola formulas "mutually enriching."

The old formula has been hoarded and bottled by small, out-of-the-way bottlers since shortly after the introduction of the new formula, but customers had to make special trips--often hundreds of miles and beg bottlers for it, who did not always consent.

...[T]he new policy did not explicitly state that those buying Coca Cola Classic were also expected to buy New Coke. The company said that crossover purchasers would be presumed, however.

He emphasized that although the new formula was designed to replace the old formula, the old formula was "never formally abandoned." Its restoration as an extraordinary product thus does not undermine the company's decisions with respect to New Coke, he said.

"There is no contradiction between the two formulas. In the history of our company there is growth and progress, but no rupture," he said."What earlier generations held as a good product remains such, and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful," he said.

[Iowanian]

Oh Jimbo, I think I read enough to have some idea of the content.

Kill the pope.

Well that settles it then. We're going to have to take out the pope.

**** the Pope. He can shove his salvation up his ass. I don't want it.

Shouldn't they be worrying about not molesting altar boys instead?


mind our own business? wow, but whos ****ing business is it to say that we're doingthings wrong? how boutthe catholics mind their own ****ing business?

When is the last time a Catholic knocked on your door on a saturday morning, handed you a pamphlet and told you what to do with your life?

As a Catholic, I've been told I'm in danger of hells' fire by Baptists, Protestants, Jehovahs, Mormons, Muslims and some asshole named Larry.

[Logical]

thats the underlying message, not exactly whats quoted.I really disagree that he is suggesting that people who follow the Catholic Church should look down upon other people following other religions. He is clearly stating that only those who follow the Catholic faith are practicing Christianity.

[Iowanian]

Slag....you're riding a Clydesdale. I'd suggest with alot of confidence that you don't represent many Catholic views.

Latin. I have a problem wiht Latin Mass.....since I don't speak Latin and would actually like to understand some of the content.

I don't go to Spanish masses for the same reason.

[|Zach|]

Haven't seen the Iowanian in a good long while.

Busy times?

[ClevelandBronco]

...As a Catholic, I've been told I'm in danger of hells' fire by Baptists, Protestants, Jehovahs, Mormons, Muslims and some asshole named Larry.

Yeah. I know some of them. I sit next to some of them. Sorry.

[SLAG]

so its what he feels to be the truth? it doesnt matter, its his feeling on another group of people. be it his opinion, or his feeling...


Not quite here is whats really happening and why the media is going out of context.


the Document released was a Document from the CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH clarifying this 1964 Vatican II dogmatic Council's Document Lumen gentium

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

The media took this clarification and spinned it to what you posted

[Iowanian]

Haven't seen the Iowanian in a good long while.

Busy times?

Very, very. Mass turmoil.

[|Zach|]

Very, very. Mass turmoil.
Things ok?

You want me to come over and kick someone's ass?

[Logical]

Oh Jimbo, I think I read enough to have some idea of the content.












When is the last time a Catholic knocked on your door on a saturday morning, handed you a pamphlet and told you what to do with your life?

As a Catholic, I've been told I'm in danger of hells' fire by Baptists, Protestants, Jehovahs, Mormons, Muslims and some asshole named Larry.

I think there are some exceptions, GoChiefs is always one as is JBucc. I do believe that Jhawkerman (or whatever he is called) is just overzealous in his statements at times. If you read the thread he has been for the most part involved in a fairly decent discussion of the negative connotations of the Popes's statements. You might be suprised that Slag and I for instance have had a very moderate and interesting (IMO) discussion of the Popes statements.

[Hammock Parties]

I really disagree that he is suggesting that people who follow the Catholic Church should look down upon other people following other religions. He is clearly stating that only those who follow the Catholic faith are practicing Christianity.

thats not what i got out of that at all. he stated that anybody who doesnt practice catholocism, they are on the wrong path to salvation. Which is total BS

[SLAG]

Slag....you're riding a Clydesdale. I'd suggest with alot of confidence that you don't represent many Catholic views.

Latin. I have a problem wiht Latin Mass.....since I don't speak Latin and would actually like to understand some of the content.

I don't go to Spanish masses for the same reason.


True I may not represent many American Catholic views but even though I fall into sin my self I will always present the Official view of the Catholic Church.

Latin Was never Removed from the Catholic Church and is still the Official Language of the Church, many Lawyers and Doctors Learn Latin to Assist them in their Jobs and some educated Catholics Learn Latin and Greek to better understand their fatih.

At the Latin Mass they Lay Faithful use a Missal, where on one side of the Page is Latin on the Right is English.. Line by Line.

Something like that can be seen here:

http://www.oldstpatrick.org/missal.html

[|Zach|]

thats not what i got out of that at all. he stated that anybody who doesnt practice catholocism, they are on the wrong path to salvation. Which is total BS
Why do you care?

That has no effect on anything you do or how you choose to practice your faith.

[Hammock Parties]

Not quite here is whats really happening and why the media is going out of context.


the Document released was a Document from the CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH clarifying this 1964 Vatican II dogmatic Council's Document Lumen gentium

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

The media took this clarification and spinned it to what you posted

holy jebus, thats a shit ton of reading... Can u direct me to what it is i should be reading in there?

[Mr Luzcious]

I just dont know what to say. i dont feel like arguing, but this is my take on the entire story.

Yes, the pope believes that the traditional catholicism of pre 1962 is the only way to be a real catholic, thats totally fine with me cause im not a catholic. But when ya sit there and say that any other form of religion is wrong and that all other churches cant be considered churches, I really lose all respect for the catholic religion... I gained a lot of respect for the religion when i married into it, but i just cant respect it anymore... Who is to say that all other religions are wrong?

I haven't read through the entire thread yet, so I apologize if this has already been addressed.

Firstly, religions are generally mutually exclusive.. if you follow one you can not believe that any other may be right, or you don't really follow any of them. At least thats how I see it.

Also, this isn't a matter of different religions at all, just denominations. Christianity is getting much harder to define.

Regarding the article itself, I suppose I can respect what the pope is trying to do.. he means well, but apostolic succession is a bunch of crap.

[Hammock Parties]

Why do you care?

That has no effect on anything you do or how you choose to practice your faith.

dare i even answer this... I take offense to something, im not one to sit back and let it slide... i voice my opinion on how wrong i feel it is... sorry if i stick up for what or who i am

[Hammock Parties]

Wait...maybe a nice venison steak?

[|Zach|]

sorry if i stick up for what or who i am
You are not sticking up for who YOU are.

You are going out of your way to attack something that has no effect on you. So much so that it is obvious there is more behind this than you are telling.

[Iowanian]

If you're not Catholic and attending Mass.....this has zero effect on you.


Holy Crap.....did you just see on CNN? A giant Catholic Crusader Plane just carpet Bombed Darfur!

Oh wait.....it was just a few kilotons of Food and Medicine, not TNT.

Whew.

Peace be with you.

[Logical]

holy jebus, thats a shit ton of reading... Can u direct me to what it is i should be reading in there?He would probably point you to this, it is near the end.

3. The College, which does not exist without the head, is said "to exist also as the subject of supreme and full power in the universal Church." This must be admitted of necessity so that the fullness of power belonging to the Roman Pontiff is not called into question. For the College, always and of necessity, includes its head, because in the college he preserves unhindered his function as Christ's Vicar and as Pastor of the universal Church. In other words, it is not a distinction between the Roman Pontiff and the bishops taken collectively, but a distinction between the Roman Pontiff taken separately and the Roman Pontiff together with the bishops. Since the Supreme Pontiff is head of the College, he alone is able to perform certain actions which are not at all within the competence of the bishops, e.g., convoking the College and directing it, approving norms of action, etc. Cf. Modus 81. It is up to the judgment of the Supreme Pontiff, to whose care Christ's whole flock has been entrusted, to determine, according to the needs of the Church as they change over the course of centuries, the way in which this care may best be exercised-whether in a personal or a collegial way. The Roman Pontiff, taking account of the Church's welfare, proceeds according to his own discretion in arranging, promoting and approving the exercise of collegial activity.

[SLAG]

holy jebus, thats a shit ton of reading... Can u direct me to what it is i should be reading in there?


That is the Original Document here is the article you should have posted as the thread starter:
http://zenit.org/article-20098?l=english



Holy See Clarifies Meaning of "Subsist"

Debate Stems From Vatican II Document


VATICAN CITY, JULY 10, 2007 (Zenit.org).- The Second Vatican Council didn't change Catholic doctrine on the Church, but rather deepened and developed it, says the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

In a document released today the congregation clarifies, in the form of five questions and answers, the understanding of what Vatican II meant by the term "subsists in" with regard to the nature of the Catholic Church.

Cardinal William Joseph Levada and Archbishop Angelo Amato, prefect and secretary of the congregation, respectively, signed the brief text June 29, the Solemnity of Sts. Peter and Paul.

It is titled "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church," and was approved by Benedict XVI.

The responses affirm that the "Second Vatican Council neither changed nor intended to change" Catholic doctrine on the Church, but rather "it developed, deepened and more fully explained it."

Quoting Pope Paul VI, the document explains that "what Christ willed, we also will. What was, still is. What the Church has taught down through the centuries, we also teach."

It continues: "'In simple terms that which was assumed, is now explicit; that which was uncertain, is now clarified; that which was meditated upon, discussed and sometimes argued over, is now put together in one clear formulation.'"

Word choice

The text explains the meaning of the term "subsists in," which is used to describe the nature of the Catholic Church in "Lumen Gentium," a document of Vatican II. The document states: "The Church of Christ ... subsists in the Catholic Church."

The doctrinal congregation explains in the clarification: "Christ 'established here on earth' only one Church and instituted it as a 'visible and spiritual community,' that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted.

"This Church, constituted and organized in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and the bishops in communion with him."

The responses say that "it is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them."

The document further explains why the expression "subsists in" was adopted, instead of simply the word "is."

"The use of this expression, which indicates the full identity of the Church of Christ with the Catholic Church, does not change the doctrine on the Church," the document affirmed.

It continues: "Rather, it comes from and brings out more clearly the fact that there are 'numerous elements of sanctification and of truth' which are found outside her structure, but which 'as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel toward Catholic unity.'"

Not in communion

Turning to the issue of Eastern Churches not in full communion with Rome, the congregation explains that "the council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term Church.

"'Because these Churches, although separated, have true sacraments and above all -- because of the apostolic succession -- the priesthood and the Eucharist, by means of which they remain linked to us by very close bonds,' they merit the title of 'particular or local Churches,' and are called sister Churches of the particular Catholic Churches," it says.

Christian communities born out of the 16th-century Reformation are not given the title Church, the document explains.

It states: "According to Catholic doctrine, these communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church.

"These ecclesial communities, which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called 'Churches' in the proper sense."

[Hammock Parties]

Are you allowed to bring ketchup to communion?

[Iowanian]

I don't know.

I do know that last sunday, my daughter asked the Priest for a cracker.

"Body of Christ"
"amen"..(me)

"Ah want, Crack Ker"

He did laugh.

[Hammock Parties]

You are not sticking up for who YOU are.

You are going out of your way to attack something that has no effect on you. So much so that it is obvious there is more behind this than you are telling.

oh god... according to the catholic church, since im not a catholic, im not on the right path to salvation, which means im going to hell, right? at least thats how i interperet it. I dont feel this to be true, so i dont take a liking to a huge ass group of people preaching it... Thats exactly why im pissed off.

[SLAG]

Are you allowed to bring ketchup to communion?

How MOST Catholics Take Communion:

http://www.stillpro.com/st.catherine.rededication/adh.st.catherine.18X.jpg


How Traditional Catholics Take Communion:

http://bp3.blogger.com/_sWnRGdc6KeE/RmjqZifLzZI/AAAAAAAABEs/dJox0bcJ4vU/s400/girls1.JPG
Pic Credit Goes to WolfTracker

[Hammock Parties]

That's awful. Those Priests look incredibly arrogant.

[Mr Luzcious]

oh god... according to the catholic church, since im not a catholic, im not on the right path to salvation, which means im going to hell, right? at least thats how i interperet it. I dont feel this to be true, so i dont take a liking to a huge ass group of people preaching it... Thats exactly why im pissed off.

Unless you're not certain that you aren't on the road to hell.. you still shouldn't be so pissed off. I'm not catholic but I sure don't care whether the pope thinks I'm going to hell or not.

[Hammock Parties]

nobody answered my question earlier... Since i am of no religion, especially not catholic, but believe in god, am i going to hell? What would the traditional catholic say?

[alnorth]

thats not what i got out of that at all. he stated that anybody who doesnt practice catholocism, they are on the wrong path to salvation. Which is total BS

Again, your opinion. I have not yet read of your outrage against the Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, many Baptists, and several Evangelical splinter groups who all say that if you dont run with their crowd, you are either going to hell, or some lower consolation prize type of pseudo-heaven. The Catholics are merely saying they dont know for sure what God will do with you, which is far less extreme than most.

[Hammock Parties]

Unless you're not certain that you aren't on the road to hell.. you still shouldn't be so pissed off. I'm not catholic but I sure don't care whether the pope thinks I'm going to hell or not.

Beh, i guess you are correct there... I know where im headed, the only person who can say otherwise would be god himself, and last time i checked, nobody has heard from him in quite some time, so i think im good

[SLAG]

Beh, i guess you are correct there... I know where im headed, the only person who can say otherwise would be god himself, and last time i checked, nobody has heard from him in quite some time, so i think im good


I find it interesting that you hold the Pope in such high regard to get so offended at his statement.

;) :p

[Hammock Parties]

Again, your opinion. I have not yet read of your outrage against the Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, many Baptists, and several Evangelical splinter groups who all say that if you dont run with their crowd, you are either going to hell, or some lower consolation prize type of pseudo-heaven. The Catholics are merely saying they dont know for sure what God will do with you, which is far less extreme than most.

i definitely would if the supposed head of each of their churches put out a mass media report about it. They havent done that... yet, lol.

[alnorth]

oh god... according to the catholic church, since im not a catholic, im not on the right path to salvation, which means im going to hell, right? at least thats how i interperet it. I dont feel this to be true, so i dont take a liking to a huge ass group of people preaching it... Thats exactly why im pissed off.

Your interpretation is not shared by the Catholic Church. The fact that you irrationally flew off the handle over a message not directed at you, is your problem.

Your hysterical rage should be directed at those who, as part of their faith, believe you are definitely, without a doubt, going to hell or a lesser form of heaven because you picked the wrong faith. The RCC doesnt presume to know for sure what happens to those outside of the church.

[Hammock Parties]

I find it interesting that you hold the Pope in such high regard to get so offended at his statement.

;) :p

lol, its the pope man, hes the supposed head of what has been the largest congregation of people since religion was first founded... When the pope speaks, i tend to feel that all catholics feel the same way or are forced to feel the same way as he, am i wrong?

[SLAG]

nobody answered my question earlier... Since i am of no religion, especially not catholic, but believe in god, am i going to hell? What would the traditional catholic say?

The traditional Catholic should say that If you could prove to God that you had Invincible ignorance of the Fact that the Catholic Church was the One True Faith then you may be saved

Invincible ignorance is the key

[Hammock Parties]

Your interpretation is not shared by the Catholic Church. The fact that you irrationally flew off the handle over a message not directed at you, is your problem.

Your hysterical rage should be directed at those who, as part of their faith, believe you are definitely, without a doubt, going to hell or a lesser form of heaven because you picked the wrong faith. The RCC doesnt presume to know for sure what happens to those outside of the church.

thats the thing, from all the articles i read over the subject, that is not at all the message i was getting...

[SLAG]

lol, its the pope man, hes the supposed head of what has been the largest congregation of people since religion was first founded... When the pope speaks, i tend to feel that all catholics feel the same way or are forced to feel the same way as he, am i wrong?
They are Only Forced to Feel the Same way if he was speaking Ex Cathedrea



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05677a.htm

Ex Cathedra

Literally "from the chair", a theological term which signifies authoritative teaching and is more particularly applied to the definitions given by the Roman pontiff. Originally the name of the seat occupied by a professor or a bishop, cathedra was used later on to denote the magisterium, or teaching authority. The phrase ex cathedra occurs in the writings of the medieval theologians, and more frequently in the discussions which arose after the Reformation in regard to the papal prerogatives. But its present meaning was formally determined by the Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv: "We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable." (See INFALLIBILITY; POPE.)

[Hammock Parties]

The traditional Catholic should say that If you could prove to God that you had Invincible ignorance of the Fact that the Catholic Church was the One True Faith then you may be saved

Invincible ignorance is the key

confused. invincible ignorance? meaning that i didnt know that the church was the one true faith?

[alnorth]

i definitely would if the supposed head of each of their churches put out a mass media report about it. They havent done that... yet, lol.

You act as if he called a press conference. He issued a message to Catholics which the media decided to pick up on and twist around for ratings. People get mad, hilarity ensues.

Meanwhile, I'm still confused why people dont get this worked up over thousands of Muslim extremists who not only believe we are going to hell, but are actively trying to send some of us there.

[Hammock Parties]

They are Only Forced to Feel the Same way if he was speaking Ex Cathedrea

so if hes not sitting in that chair making an authoritative decree, catholics can interperet what he says in any way they want? im confused

[SLAG]

confused. invincible ignorance? meaning that i didnt know that the church was the one true faith?


Jimmy Akin Can say it better than I can

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9907chap.asp

[Mr Luzcious]

The traditional Catholic should say that If you could prove to God that you had Invincible ignorance of the Fact that the Catholic Church was the One True Faith then you may be saved

Invincible ignorance is the key

So... thats basically everybody.

[SLAG]

so if hes not sitting in that chair making an authoritative decree, catholics can interperet what he says in any way they want? im confused


Well not Literally Sitting.. but the Figurative "Speaking From the Chair of Peter"

But basically if the Pope is not speaking of Faith or Morals then The Layman is free to Interpet

[Hammock Parties]

You act as if he called a press conference. He issued a message to Catholics which the media decided to pick up on and twist around for ratings. People get mad, hilarity ensues.

Meanwhile, I'm still confused why people dont get this worked up over thousands of Muslim extremists who not only believe we are going to hell, but are actively trying to send some of us there.

well, muslims arent too heavily concentrated over here in america while catholics are. Catholics, for the most part, are your every day american , so when their leader says something, it makes it hard not to take offense. Yes of course im pissed about the muslims that want all of us christians dead, but id just be preaching to the choir if i blabbered off about it here in america

[SPchief]

Can we get a religion sub forum please?

[Mr Luzcious]

well, muslims arent too heavily concentrated over here in america while catholics are. Catholics, for the most part, are your every day american , so when their leader says something, it makes it hard not to take offense. Yes of course im pissed about the muslims that want all of us christians dead, but id just be preaching to the choir if i blabbered off about it here in america

Catholics are not NEARLY that prevalent here.

[Hammock Parties]

What exactly does the Pope do all day besides wear funny hats and look pious?

[Hammock Parties]

i really love the media... I should have known that the media is and always has been a controversy machine, spinning anything around to make their money....

[SLAG]

What exactly does the Pope do all day besides wear funny hats and look pious?

He prays for you

[Hammock Parties]

What exactly does the Pope do all day besides wear funny hats and look pious?

rape alter boys? has to start somewhere i guess, lol.

[SPchief]

DAYUM

[Logical]

nobody answered my question earlier... Since i am of no religion, especially not catholic, but believe in god, am i going to hell? What would the traditional catholic say?Interesting question because if you are not baptized I guess the only answer could be yes you would be headed to Hell according to Catholic doctrine.

[Hammock Parties]

He prays for you

Bullshit he does.

[Mr Luzcious]

Interesting question because if you are not baptized I guess the only answer could be yes you would be headed to Hell according to Catholic doctrine.

On the highway to hell, in fact.

[DaneMcCloud]

SLatin. I have a problem wiht Latin Mass.....since I don't speak Latin and would actually like to understand some of the content.

I went to Mass in Italy at both the Pantheon and the Vatican in April (and I was blessed by the Pope). The ceremonies were in either Italian or Latin but for the most part (especially at the Pantheon) it was exactly the same. Even though I knew some Italian from childhood, it was still very easy to follow because no matter what language, Mass is Mass.

And this is from someone who hadn't attended Catholic Church in around 20 years or so. So I think you'll be fine. :)

[SLAG]

What exactly does the Pope do all day besides wear funny hats and look pious?

Actually this is what he does


Pope Benedict XVI said Monday he plans to use his nearly three-week-long vacation in the Italian mountains to write a new book and said he was also preparing a new encyclical.

Benedict spoke briefly to reporters as he arrived at a church-owned villa in Lorenzago di Cadore, in the mountains near Italy's border with Austria. He said he hopes to work on the second volume of the book ''Jesus of Nazareth.'' The first volume was published earlier this year.

''It's in God's hands,'' he said. ''I hope to write some pages here.''

The first volume, Benedict's first book as pontiff, offers a personal meditation on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. The second volume is expected to explore the birth of Christ, his crucifixion and resurrection.

Benedict was asked if he would use his time in between hikes through the mountains to also prepare a new encyclical. He laughed in response but said, ''Yes, eventually.''

[Hammock Parties]

He's into fan fiction?

[RJ]

I went to Mass in Italy at both the Pantheon and the Vatican in April (and I was blessed by the Pope).:)



Name dropper.
:)

[SLAG]

Name dropper.
:)


I sat with all the Bishops during The Popes Visit to St. Louis


This Video Seems in order!

<embed src="http://www.vsocial.com/ups/c9189d11218e74e9c7957fd969fe5503" height="400" width="410"></embed>

[Hammock Parties]

Interesting question because if you are not baptized I guess the only answer could be yes you would be headed to Hell according to Catholic doctrine.

i was baptised a very long time ago actually

[Logical]

i was baptised a very long time ago actually

Then it depends on too many things for me to answer. If you have sinned (almost impossible not to) and it is a mortal sin or enoough venial sins then without having attended a Catholic Confession with a Priest and doing pennance that the answer would still be yes according to Catholic doctrine.

[Mr Luzcious]

Then it depends on too many things for me to answer. If you have sinned (almost impossible not to) and it is a mortal sin or enoough venial sins then without having attended a Catholic Confession with a Priest and doing pennance that the answer would still be yes according to Catholic doctrine.

almost impossible?

[SLAG]

Then it depends on too many things for me to answer. If you have sinned (almost impossible not to) and it is a mortal sin or enoough venial sins then without having attended a Catholic Confession with a Priest and doing pennance that the answer would still be yes according to Catholic doctrine.


FTR

Venial sins are forgiven during Mass so If you just went to mass and only committed venial sins you may be ok

[Logical]

almost impossible?Hey for all I know he is the resurrected son of Christ, who am I to tell him he has definitely sinned?

[Mr Luzcious]

Hey for all I know he is the resurrected son of Christ, who am I to tell him he has definitely sinned?

Alright.. you have a point..

humanly impossible.

[alnorth]

I think the hilarious thing is that the RCC would classify me as a Heretic, and therefore I'm probably finished in the afterlife. However, I've been defending the RCC from some angry Christians who more than likely (though not assured) have far less to worry about according to their religion. :hmmm:

[SLAG]

I think the hilarious thing is that the RCC would classify me as a Heretic, and therefore I'm probably finished in the afterlife. However, I've been defending the RCC from some angry Christians who more than likely (though not assured) have far less to worry about according to their religion. :hmmm:

I thought you said you are now athiest maybe i'm mistaken....
if so why does it matter... unless you still felt some connection to the Church or what you may know to be truth?

[SLAG]

also additional reading

http://catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

[alnorth]

I thought you said you are now athiest maybe i'm mistaken....
if so why does it matter... unless you still felt some connection to the Church or what you may know to be truth?

I was once Catholic, so I guess the key important question is if I had ever truely accepted the Catholic faith before later turning away (which I understand to be a very serious sin unless repented), or if my faith was never real in the first place, which is more of a perilous dark gray area. I never did go through final confirmation, so I've got that going for me.

Its not that it matters to me, I just thought it was interesting that the people who were the most furious in this thread should have less to worry about in the eyes of the Church than I should.

[SLAG]

I was once Catholic, so I guess the key important question is if I had ever truely accepted the Catholic faith before later turning away (which I understand to be a very serious sin unless repented), or if my faith was never real in the first place, which is more of a perilous dark gray area. I never did go through final confirmation, so I've got that going for me.

Baptisim really is the Key here

so....

[SLAG]

Lastly how about we end on a happy note:

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=24645

A group of Christians in India set a new world record by writing the Bible in almost in two and a half hours.

The July 7 copying of scriptures, in the presence of neutral observers and church leaders, began at 5:00 p.m. and ended at 7:32 p.m. with a prayer, according to the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of India. The team of Christians from various denominations, who ranged in age from 11 to 77 and included priests, nuns, pastors, brothers and lay people, was led by a local Bhopal lay person Sunil Joseph, who in December 2005 set a record by writing the Bible on his own in 123 days.

“It is a historic movement of brotherhood among the Christians,” said Catholic Archbishop Pascal Topno of Bhopal. “We are one in Christ, our differences are nothing before the strong brotherhood feeling we have among us.”

“This was really a show of unity among the Christians,” said Father Anand Muttungal, spokesperson for Catholic Church who helped coordinate the program.

The event, organizers said, was organized also to mark the importance of the day – 7/7/07. The Christian community considers number seven as the most complete number among all numbers, they said, pointing to the Book of Genesis referring to the seventh day blessed and set apart as a special as the day upon which God had completed creation (Gn 2:3).