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DaneMcCloud
07-18-2007, 01:46 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/07/17/dohrmann.vick/index.html

The indictment handed down Tuesday against Falcons quarterback Michael Vick and three others describes in detail how they procured a property in Virginia for the purpose of staging dogfights, bought dogs, and then fought them there and in several other states over a six-year period. With at least three cooperating witnesses providing the details, federal authorities compiled a detailed case that traces the birth and rise of Bad Newz Kennels.

But not a single line in the 18-page indictment will generate more rage toward Vick and the others charged -- Purnell A. Peace, Quanis L. Phillips and Tony Taylor -- than a sentence near the end. It reads: "In or about April of 2007, Peace, Phillips and Vick executed approximately eight dogs that did not perform well in 'testing' sessions at 1915 Moonlight Road by various methods, including hanging, drowning and slamming at least one dog's body to the ground."

In interviews I conducted for an earlier story on the subculture of dogfighting and Vick's involvement, several experts described to me the process of "rolling" dogs. Owners take young dogs, usually puppies, and put them in an enclosed area and see how they react. They prod the dogs and urge them to get angry. If a dog shows aggression toward another dog, that's a positive. If a dog is timid, it is useless. Some fighters give away puppies that don't show the required "gameness." Other owners don't bother with the trouble of finding them a home and simply kill them.

Vick and his three associates, according to the indictment, fall in the latter category. Federal investigators allege that Vick is a murderer of dogs who weren't willing to fight for his enjoyment. Even worse, his actions appear more sinister than most professional dogfighters.

"If you want to kill a dog, why exert the energy to slam him into the ground or drown him? Why not just shoot him, which is the most common method?" says John Goodwin, dogfighting expert for the Humane Society of the United States. "That is insane. These guys, if they did that, have serious problems."

Vick's problems would seem to be plentiful now that he has gone from a person of interest in local and federal investigations to one of four men charged in U.S. District Court in Richmond, Va. with conspiracy to commit interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and to sponsor a dog in an animal-fighting venture. On the Travel Act portion of the conspiracy charges, he faces a maximum of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine. The dogfighting charges carry a possible sentence of one year in prison and $100,000 fine or both.

Still, even with the gravity of the crimes alleged, Vick's most serious problem would seem to be one of perception. If one believes the allegations against him, Vick is neither a novice dogfighter nor or a hobbyist who dipped his toe into the sport briefly. The indictment alleges that Vick is a professional dogfighter who"sponsored" more than two dozen dogfights. He is not, as he previously said, someone who merely trusted the wrong people. Rather, he is the face of a bloodsport that the majority of NFL fans probably didn't know existed until the property he owned on Moonlight Road was raided in late April. And, now, he becomes the ultimate test for NFL commissioner Roger Goodell and his new discipline policy.

"We expect the Falcons and the NFL to take prompt action," Goodwin says. "The message needs to be sent to other athletes who have been involved or are involved in dogfighting that this can be a career ender."

It remains to be seen how the Falcons or the NFL will act, but if they read all 18 pages of the indictment, one can be sure they will no longer give Vick the benefit of the doubt.

According to the indictment, Vick, who was also known as "Ookie," and the three others set out to start a kennel of American Pit Bull Terriers for the purpose of fighting them around 2001. Around May of that year, the indictment states that Taylor picked the property on 1915 Moonlight Road near Smithfield, Va., and Vick paid $34,000 for the land. In that same year, Vick and the other three men began acquiring fighting dogs, purchasing animals in Virginia and other states. There were four dogs from an individual in North Carolina, another dog bought in New York, and six dogs and six puppies from an individual in Richmond, Va.

According to the indictment, in Sept. 2001, Vick and two others purchased four pit bulls puppies, including a male named "Magic" for $1,000 from an individual who has since testified before the grand jury. In 2002, Vick, accompanied by Peace, purchased four pit bulls from another person in Virginia who the indictment says is now a cooperating witness for the government.

The indictment states that in early 2002, the quartet established "Bad Newz Kennels" and even obtained shirts and headbands that "promoted their affiliation" with that organization. They also began renovation of the Moonlight Road property: building a fence to shield the portion where dogfights allegedly occurred and sheds to house the dogs and training equipment. They buried car axles in the woods so they could tie the dogs to them.

Around the summer of 2002, the four men began "rolling" dogs, according to the indictment. At that time, Peace, Phillips and Taylor each killed at least one dog that proved to be a poor fighter. Peace shot a dog with a .22 caliber pistol. Phillips also shot a dog. Taylor, the indictment alleges, executed at least two dogs that didn't test well, shooting one and electrocuting at least one other.

Federal investigators say the quartet began attending fights as early as 2002, and in that year, Vick is first said to have sponsored a fight, between "Zebro" and "Maniac" at the Moonlight Road property for a purse totaling $2,000.

One of the more detailed descriptions of a fight involves a bout in March 2003. A professional fighter, now cooperating with the government, traveled from North Carolina to a location near Blackstone, Va., with his 35-pound female pit bull and a 47-pound male pit bull. The purse was $13,000 a side for the fight involving the female and $10,000 for the fight between the males. According to the indictment, Peace and Vick "represented" Bad Newz Kennels at those fights, which Bad Newz Kennels lost. "Peace, after consulting with Vick about the losing female pit bull's condition, executed the dog by wetting the dog down with water and electrocuting the animal," the indictment reads.

The fate of the male dog owned by Bad Newz is not mentioned in the indictment, but it does state that following that fight, "Vick retrieved a book bag containing approximately $23,000 in cash" and gave it to the winning owner, who is listed as "Cooperating Witness #2" in the indictment.

There are other allegations like those, other unfathomable acts. At times, the indictment can be difficult to read. Vick allegedly got into dogfighting in 2001 and fought dogs as recently as April. In other words, federal investigators say he's been a dogfighter as long as he's been an NFL quarterback.

After reading and rereading the allegations against Vick, it's easy to imagine a future where he is neither.

Buns
07-18-2007, 01:54 AM
Congratulations Mike Vick, you just went from NFL QB to prison yard ho

DenverChief
07-18-2007, 02:09 AM
I have zero tolerance for people who abuse pets.....:grr:

Mecca
07-18-2007, 02:11 AM
And because he's one of the faces of the NFL.....I'd almost bet money he is not suspended until an actual conviction is handed out.....

This whole clean up the NFL thing is more about perception than reality...they made an example of Pacman Jones.......with Vick they'll wait obviously for their own reasons as a league.

SPchief
07-18-2007, 02:18 AM
And because he's one of the faces of the NFL.....I'd almost bet money he is not suspended until an actual conviction is handed out.....

This whole clean up the NFL thing is more about perception than reality...they made an example of Pacman Jones.......with Vick they'll wait obviously for their own reasons as a league.


Vick is no longer a face of the NFL.

TinyEvel
07-18-2007, 02:22 AM
If any of this is remotely true, then, nuthooks would be too lenient a punishment.

Mecca
07-18-2007, 02:25 AM
Vick is no longer a face of the NFL.

This is true...but I believe there will be a double standard.....just like I believe Jared Allen benefited from one.

SPchief
07-18-2007, 02:30 AM
This is true...but I believe there will be a double standard.....just like I believe Jared Allen benefited from one.


Tee it up a little higher for the DC crowd.

tk13
07-18-2007, 02:32 AM
Jared Allen was a blip on the radar screen compared to what this thing is gonna turn into. This is going to be national news.

Mecca
07-18-2007, 02:34 AM
Jared Allen was a blip on the radar screen compared to what this thing is gonna turn into. This is going to be national news.

I wasn't saying it was in the same ballpark but it's already an example to me of the league not being consistent on this thing. That's basically my thing with the NFL right now be consistent and something tells me they won't be....

They have every reason to suspend Vick but I'm not sure they will because that's how things go.

SPchief
07-18-2007, 02:36 AM
I wasn't saying it was in the same ballpark but it's already an example to me of the league not being consistent on this thing. That's basically my thing with the NFL right now be consistent and something tells me they won't be....

They have every reason to suspend Vick but I'm not sure they will because that's how things go.


You're wrong.

Mecca
07-18-2007, 02:38 AM
You're wrong.

We'll see, I hope I'm wrong on this.....

Wait wrong on the double standard thing or wrong on the Vick thing?

SPchief
07-18-2007, 02:55 AM
We'll see, I hope I'm wrong on this.....

Wait wrong on the double standard thing or wrong on the Vick thing?


The Vick thing

ClevelandBronco
07-18-2007, 03:45 AM
And because he's one of the faces of the NFL.....I'd almost bet money he is not suspended until an actual conviction is handed out.....

This whole clean up the NFL thing is more about perception than reality...they made an example of Pacman Jones.......with Vick they'll wait obviously for their own reasons as a league.

I think you're right. I hope we're wrong.

Mile High Mania
07-18-2007, 04:42 AM
I always expect the double standard, but this isn't the typical player infraction. This isn't something that we've really seen before. This isn't a DUI, drug charge or anything like that... this is a topic that carries a huge black eye and the league has to walk a fine line here.

I don't think they're going to be able to get away with the double standard thing... this will not go away. Vick will have to be proven innocent before this begins to fade.

Silock
07-18-2007, 04:55 AM
The general public probably looks more severely at things like dogfighting and animal abuse than they do at things like DUI and drug & weapon charges. Even though the latter screw up and end human life, the animal abuse is what really gets people.

I'll be surprised if Vick isn't severely punished by the NFL for this. The last thing the NFL wants is a black eye by animal lovers for this.

KC Jones
07-18-2007, 04:56 AM
I only hope that in addition to prison, they could find some way to sue him for breach of contract and leave him penniless.

:cuss:

Simplex3
07-18-2007, 05:01 AM
And because he's one of the faces of the NFL.....I'd almost bet money he is not suspended until an actual conviction is handed out.....

This whole clean up the NFL thing is more about perception than reality...they made an example of Pacman Jones.......with Vick they'll wait obviously for their own reasons as a league.
That would be the worst PR move the league could make. If they have an ounce of sense Vick will have a stiff suspension (8 games+) in the next seven days and if he's convicted he'll be tossed from the league.

DenverChief
07-18-2007, 05:09 AM
I always expect the double standard, but this isn't the typical player infraction. This isn't something that we've really seen before. This isn't a DUI, drug charge or anything like that... this is a topic that carries a huge black eye and the league has to walk a fine line here.

I don't think they're going to be able to get away with the double standard thing... this will not go away. Vick will have to be proven innocent before this begins to fade.


I agree except that your not found innocent merely not guilty ;)

Mile High Mania
07-18-2007, 05:11 AM
I agree except that your not found innocent merely not guilty ;)

Exactly...

Redrum_69
07-18-2007, 05:46 AM
Vick really needs to play for the Raiders. Thats the only team that would accept him now. If Vick gets 10 years...minimum...he'll still be in tip top shape to play for the Raiders. WHoever the center is then, should watch out for Vick's count though....

penguinz
07-18-2007, 06:04 AM
And because he's one of the faces of the NFL.....I'd almost bet money he is not suspended until an actual conviction is handed out.....

This whole clean up the NFL thing is more about perception than reality...they made an example of Pacman Jones.......with Vick they'll wait obviously for their own reasons as a league.
You are a ****ing idiot. Why do you even bother wasting time posting? you are never even remotely correct and just waste everyones time.

cadmonkey
07-18-2007, 06:06 AM
Once a piece of sh*t always a piece of sh*t.

Who would have thought that Marcus Vick would be the better person.

KC Kings
07-18-2007, 06:33 AM
The general public probably looks more severely at things like dogfighting and animal abuse than they do at things like DUI and drug & weapon charges. Even though the latter screw up and end human life, the animal abuse is what really gets people.

I'll be surprised if Vick isn't severely punished by the NFL for this. The last thing the NFL wants is a black eye by animal lovers for this.

Because gangsta thugs aren't nearly as cuddly as puppies.

What is the maximum sentence that Jared Allen could have received for his second DUI? The maximum sentence for dog fighting is only 1 year. The interstate commerce part if 5 years, so a max of 6 years IF, and only IF, they can prove to the court that these allegations are true. There is NO WAY that Vick is done. He won't serve any jail time for this at all.

I don't see how drowning or electrocuting a dog is any more cruel than fighting the dogs. If anything, I understand being angry at losing $13k and drowning the dog more than I understand somebody getting off on watching the dogs fight in the first place.

KC Kings
07-18-2007, 06:36 AM
Vick really needs to play for the Raiders. Thats the only team that would accept him now. If Vick gets 10 years...minimum...he'll still be in tip top shape to play for the Raiders. WHoever the center is then, should watch out for Vick's count though....


Where do you see the 10 years minimum? Maybe I missed it but I thought the article said the max sentence he could face would be 6 years. Rarely do they hand out the max sentence, especially if you are rich.





Vick's problems would seem to be plentiful now that he has gone from a person of interest in local and federal investigations to one of four men charged in U.S. District Court in Richmond, Va. with conspiracy to commit interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and to sponsor a dog in an animal-fighting venture. On the Travel Act portion of the conspiracy charges, he faces a maximum of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine. The dogfighting charges carry a possible sentence of one year in prison and $100,000 fine or both.

LOCOChief
07-18-2007, 06:49 AM
You are a ****ing idiot. Why do you even bother wasting time posting? you are never even remotely correct and just waste everyones time.

We're not all wasting time? Somebody need some coffee?

Mecca
07-18-2007, 06:54 AM
Penz just doesn't like me really has nothing to do with my post in the thread long stemming hatred type thing...

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 06:56 AM
Here's the indictment... 18 pages, sickening.

Phobia
07-18-2007, 06:56 AM
Penz just doesn't like me really has nothing to do with my post in the thread long stemming hatred type thing...

I don't know about all the hating stuff. I don't hate you at all. But I do think Penguinz is right about the fact that you throw a lot of crap out there and rarely does any of it stick.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 07:00 AM
I don't know about all the hating stuff. I don't hate you at all. But I do think Penguinz is right about the fact that you throw a lot of crap out there and rarely does any of it stick.

the Talking Can
07-18-2007, 07:00 AM
ugly shit

you spend your money and free time killing dogs?

brilliant

teedubya
07-18-2007, 07:03 AM
Mike Vick is hero to thousands of kids. So now, thousands of kids get to realize that one of their heroes is a shitbag.

Welcome to America.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 07:13 AM
This disturbed me: at the property, in addition to dogs and other crap, they also found a "rape stand, a device in which a female dog who is too aggressive to submit to males for breeding is strapped down with her head held in place by a restraint"... sick.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 07:14 AM
A suitable punishment, if found guilty... put him in the ring with a half-dozen of those dogs. When they're done with him (don't let them kill him), wet him down and electrocute his ass.

Duck Dog
07-18-2007, 07:15 AM
Everyone's a Pit Bull lover now, eh? Seriously though, only a sick, sadistic POS would body slam a dog in order to dispatch it.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 07:16 AM
Everyone's a Pit Bull lover now, eh? Seriously though, only a sick, sadistic POS would body slam a dog in order to dispatch it.
I don't like pits, but that doesn't mean I want to see them fought, tortured and killed.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 07:17 AM
I don't like pits, but that doesn't mean I want to see them fought, tortured and killed.
I'm not even one to oppose banning the breed, but that ALSO doesn't mean I want the existing ones euthanized.

Duck Dog
07-18-2007, 07:17 AM
This disturbed me: at the property, in addition to dogs and other crap, they also found a "rape stand, a device in which a female dog who is too aggressive to submit to males for breeding is strapped down with her head held in place by a restraint"... sick.


That's not that uncommon for any breed where the female isn't a willing participant.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 07:18 AM
That's not that uncommon for any breed where the female isn't a willing participant.
I find that disturbing on multiple levels.

Duck Dog
07-18-2007, 07:18 AM
I don't like pits, but that doesn't mean I want to see them fought, tortured and killed.


TIC, man. I don't think any normal person would condone those acts against any living creature.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 07:19 AM
TIC, man. I don't think any normal person would condone those acts against any living creature.
TIC? Not familiar with that one.

Duck Dog
07-18-2007, 07:21 AM
I find that disturbing on multiple levels.

It's true and it's not cruel. It actually makes it safer for both the dog and the bitch. It's not like they strap them down so some guy can live out some weird fetish.

Duck Dog
07-18-2007, 07:21 AM
TIC? Not familiar with that one.

Tongue in cheek.

Delano
07-18-2007, 07:23 AM
Ignorant question here, but I seem to remember stories of cruel bastards getting MANY years in prison for animal cruelty. I can see maybe Vick escaping the cruelty charge, but what about the others that actually executed the dogs?

crazycoffey
07-18-2007, 07:25 AM
Lovely article, just lovely. I'm sickened by what these wacko's did.

I don't blame the NFL waiting for more information, but when this goes to court and vick is convected in any form, I'd expect he'd be banned from the NFL. May or may not happen, but that's my POV.

As to Mecca's statements of double standards, this is not compariable at all. I don't think Allen's DUI's are comparable to Pacman either. Allen has done what he could to put this behind him, get his name out of the papers, and even changed his lifestyle to prove he wants to better himself, he deserved the reduction.

Pacman was at a titty bar the night before talking to the commish, and just what - a week later?

Vick's thing is federal which is even worse. The league knows this and will act appropriately, double standards my ass.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 07:26 AM
It's true and it's not cruel. It actually makes it safer for both the dog and the bitch. It's not like they strap them down so some guy can live out some weird fetish.
Being and animal lover and hating to see my animals put into positions of pain or something they don't want to do, I'd have a hard time accepting that it's not cruel... but that just my opinion.

MOhillbilly
07-18-2007, 07:30 AM
jp goodwin is a terrorist member of the ALF.

ChiefsfaninPA
07-18-2007, 07:30 AM
Being and animal lover and hating to see my animals put into positions of pain or something they don't want to do, I'd have a hard time accepting that it's not cruel... but that just my opinion.

Its never considered cruel to people who themselves don't endure the same type of behavior.

Duck Dog, they are animals. If they want to mate they do. It is not instinctive for them to be put in any type of device so we can breed animals for money. It seems to me it is cruel and not natural for them.

Mecca
07-18-2007, 07:36 AM
I don't know about all the hating stuff. I don't hate you at all. But I do think Penguinz is right about the fact that you throw a lot of crap out there and rarely does any of it stick.

That's because for some reason people around here think I'm always being serious when I'm not.....

It's nice for him to explode and all but I was just saying I think the NFL is showing a double standard in their conduct policy.

The Vick stuff is basically ridiculous and they can handle it either way and actually make an excuse for it. I wasn't trying to compare Allen to Vick I was just using Allen as a mild example of a bit of a double standard.

They can go either way with Vick they can not suspend him until he's actually convicted because "he's never been in trouble before" and innocent until proven guilty and all that...also they have some stake as one was once suppose to be someone the game was marketed around.

Or they suspend him now avoid the bad PR of not suspending him and all that comes with that.....and of course the players union freaking out on them for which I'm sure would happen seeing as well it's their job to do that for the most part.

There's pro's and con's to it they are likely weighing those...they almost have to do something to look even remotely consistent in this conduct policy and not look like a few guys were used a scapegoats to get the media off their backs.

cdcox
07-18-2007, 07:37 AM
Vick trotting out on the field like normal will be a PR disaster for the leauge. I'd expect he'll get booed in Atlanta and 3x worse in every stadium in the league. I don't think the Falcons or the NFL can stand that kind of relentless bad PR. The game is much bigger than any player. The league and the Falcons will protect their interest. And their be best interest is to get Vick as far away from the game as possible. I'm guessing they will suspend him with pay if the collective bargaining agreement does not allow more strict disciplinary measures to be taken against first time offenders prior to a conviction.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 07:38 AM
That's because for some reason people around here think I'm always being serious when I'm not.....

It's nice for him to explode and all but I was just saying I think the NFL is showing a double standard in their conduct policy.

The Vick stuff is basically ridiculous and they can handle it either way and actually make an excuse for it. I wasn't trying to compare Allen to Vick I was just using Allen as a mild example of a bit of a double standard.

They can go either way with Vick they can not suspend him until he's actually convicted because "he's never been in trouble before" and innocent until proven guilty and all that...also they have some stake as one was once suppose to be someone the game was marketed around.

Or they suspend him now avoid the bad PR of not suspending him and all that comes with that.....and of course the players union freaking out on them for which I'm sure would happen seeing as well it's their job to do that for the most part.

There's pro's and con's to it they are likely weighing those...they almost have to do something to look even remotely consistent in this conduct policy and not look like a few guys were used a scapegoats to get the media off their backs.
I'm not sure they won't got the opposite way and use Vick as an example, moreso than Pacman Jones.

Duck Dog
07-18-2007, 07:39 AM
It's not natural for them to eat processed dog food or to live in your house, or a number of other every day activities. Look, when a female dog is not receptive she is restrained to prevent injury to either of them or the owners. It's not like a bitch will curl up in the fetal position and sob for days after.

Mecca
07-18-2007, 07:42 AM
I'm not sure they won't got the opposite way and use Vick as an example, moreso than Pacman Jones.

But...he's basically considered a 1st time offender, like cox said. That's where I think a lot of this issue comes in. Jones had repeatedly been in trouble, so they could do that without anyone saying anything.

They do that to Vick someone in the player union not to mention his personal lawyers will be on it quickly about how the punishment isn't in line with a first time offender all that.....

This whole thing may get really stupid....in numerous ways, more screwed up than it already is and that's saying alot.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 07:42 AM
It's not natural for them to eat processed dog food or to live in your house, or a number of other every day activities. Look, when a female dog is not receptive she is restrained to prevent injury to either of them or the owners. It's not like a bitch will curl up in the fetal position and sob for days after.

Maybe people shouldn't be breeding an animal that is that aggressive? Then you are breeding that aggression and passing that trait along.

Mecca
07-18-2007, 07:42 AM
It's not natural for them to eat processed dog food or to live in your house, or a number of other every day activities. Look, when a female dog is not receptive she is restrained to prevent injury to either of them or the owners. It's not like a bitch will curl up in the fetal position and sob for days after.

I hope they've never bought a pure bred dog.....or dogs from breeders then because well yea.....

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 07:43 AM
But...he's basically considered a 1st time offender, like cox said. That's where I think a lot of this issue comes in. Jones had repeatedly been in trouble, so they could do that without anyone saying anything.

They do that to Vick someone in the player union not to mention his personal lawyers will be on it quickly about how the punishment isn't in line with a first time offender all that.....

This whole thing may get really stupid....in numerous ways, more screwed up than it already is and that's saying alot.
I don't thing the first time offender will come into play because of the nature of the offense.

A first time DUI offender gets a pass... a first time federal indictment on dog fighting and cruelty to animal charges doesn't.

JMO.

cadmonkey
07-18-2007, 07:43 AM
Things that Michael Vick is sure to see/hear/experience this season should he be on the field.

* Weekly protests by animal rights activists.

* If he plays poorly "If one of Vick's dogs performed like they would have been executed"

* "WOOF, WOOF, WOOF" at every away game.

* Fans in dog masks

* If he bitches to a receiver about dropping a ball "OK Mike I'll get the next one, just don't electrocute me"

* "That's for Fido" from at least one pass rusher who crushes Vick

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 07:45 AM
Things that Michael Vick is sure to see/hear/experience this season should he be on the field.

* "That's for Fido" from at least one pass rusher who crushes Vick
I agree he'll have a target on his chest if he takes the field... also gotta wonder if some late hits won't be called because the ref looks the other way. I would.

hawkchief
07-18-2007, 07:47 AM
This scum Vick is done. No way the NFL parades his ass out on the field after this. IMO, behavior like his warrants a lot more than 6 years in prison - more like 10 - 15.

Mecca
07-18-2007, 07:48 AM
I don't thing the first time offender will come into play because of the nature of the offense.

A first time DUI offender gets a pass... a first time federal indictment on dog fighting and cruelty to animal charges doesn't.

JMO.

It's honestly hard to say.....the very best they can probably do is suspend him but have to pay him all his money.

If they don't have any wording in there other than 1st time offender, 2nd time offender and that then they'll have a issue of a lawyer saying it isn't right.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 07:49 AM
This scum Vick is done. No way the NFL parades his ass out on the field after this. IMO, behavior like his warrants a lot more than 6 years in prison - more like 10 - 15.
I'm tellin' ya... let the dogs have a go at him! Then, if he doesn't "perform" well... wet him down and electrocute him.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 07:49 AM
It's honestly hard to say.....the very best they can probably do is suspend him but have to pay him all his money.

If they don't have any wording in there other than 1st time offender, 2nd time offender and that then they'll have a issue of a lawyer saying it isn't right.
You're right... but you gotta wonder what good his millions are going to do him in prison where he's the yard bitch.

Duck Dog
07-18-2007, 07:51 AM
Maybe people shouldn't be breeding an animal that is that aggressive? Then you are breeding that aggression and passing that trait along.


Alphas breeding Alphas. That will never change. I have been involved in more than 2 dozen breedings (all labs). Only once has a bitch needed to be controlled.

Mecca
07-18-2007, 07:52 AM
You're right... but you gotta wonder what good his millions are going to do him in prison where he's the yard bitch.

He's got money and a name.......in this country guys like him get off more often than not....sad but true.

I hope no one thinks I'm defending the guy either.

FringeNC
07-18-2007, 07:52 AM
Where one personally ranks dogfighting on the list of sins --and how it compares to DUI-- is irrelevant. The fact is so many NFL fans are horrified by it, the league can't let the Falcons trot Vick out.

On a side note, I can't believe how wrong ESPN has been every step of the way. Vick won't be indicted, won't be suspended, etc. Morten, Clayton, Pastabelly, all of them completely worthless...

Groves
07-18-2007, 07:53 AM
Clearly, this guy has issues and needs to stop with the cruelty.

BUT, I know what it's like having animals in the house. I've got three, and ya know? sometimes I ask them to do things that they don't want to do. I know best.

Sometimes they whine and whimper about it, and if it gets bad enough, I inflict pain on them. What's wrong with that?

If they want to take it to the wall, I'll go there. I do it for their own good, and unlike Vick, I do it without anger or malice in mind.

These three "animals" are my kids. If you let a kid only "do what it wants", you're a poor excuse for a parent. Now, let's not equate the horrors of Vicks second profession to parenting, but sheesh, he's wrong because he's cruel and sadistic, NOT because he "makes them do things they don't want to do", or some silliness like that.

Duck Dog
07-18-2007, 07:53 AM
I hope they've never bought a pure bred dog.....or dogs from breeders then because well yea.....

We only deal with purest. If you all want to get pissed off you should ask me to describe what a puppy mill is.

cdcox
07-18-2007, 07:53 AM
He's going to end up giving all his $ to lawyers.

If he were smart, he'd plead guilty to a lesser charge (if the Feds give him the option), serve his time, then live a quiet life off his money. I'm betting against him being smart.

cdcox
07-18-2007, 07:54 AM
He's got money and a name.......in this country guys like him get off more often than not....sad but true.

I hope no one thinks I'm defending the guy either.

Not on federal charges. Whole different ballgame.

HonestChieffan
07-18-2007, 07:55 AM
It comes as no surprise what goes on with PitBulls. They have been bred for years with one purpose in mind.

Vick belongs in a lockup.

boogblaster
07-18-2007, 07:56 AM
Ive been involved in dog fighting before, but this Vick shit takes the cake...no one I ever was afffialated with ever treated their animals that way..yes they fought them but they also took them to "Vets" un-named to have them healed up ....

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 07:56 AM
Alphas breeding Alphas. That will never change. I have been involved in more than 2 dozen breedings (all labs). Only once has a bitch needed to be controlled.
I understand it, I just don't agree with it. And I don't agree that a dog would need to be "controlled"...

I'm not attacking you, Duck Dog. I just disagree with you, and I'm not trying to say you're not entitled to your opinion. I just think that if a dog doesn't want to breed, it shouldn't be forced.

Mecca
07-18-2007, 07:57 AM
It comes as no surprise what goes on with PitBulls. They have been bred for years with one purpose in mind.

Vick belongs in a lockup.

Are we gonna turn it into that? Really, guy on my street has one......extremely friendly dog, I really wish people wouldn't classify a breed of dog as all bad or shit like that.

FringeNC
07-18-2007, 07:57 AM
Not on federal charges. Whole different ballgame.

It seems that way. Is there a completely different jury-selection process for federal cases?

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 07:59 AM
Clearly, this guy has issues and needs to stop with the cruelty.

BUT, I know what it's like having animals in the house. I've got three, and ya know? sometimes I ask them to do things that they don't want to do. I know best.

Sometimes they whine and whimper about it, and if it gets bad enough, I inflict pain on them. What's wrong with that?

If they want to take it to the wall, I'll go there. I do it for their own good, and unlike Vick, I do it without anger or malice in mind.

These three "animals" are my kids. If you let a kid only "do what it wants", you're a poor excuse for a parent. Now, let's not equate the horrors of Vicks second profession to parenting, but sheesh, he's wrong because he's cruel and sadistic, NOT because he "makes them do things they don't want to do", or some silliness like that.
Apparently, what I stated earlier is not exactly as I meant. Obviously, I make my animals do things they don't want to do... I was making a point specific to the "rape stands" for breeding. I don't think breeding is in the dog's best interest... it's in the owner's best interest.

Mecca
07-18-2007, 07:59 AM
He's going to end up giving all his $ to lawyers.

If he were smart, he'd plead guilty to a lesser charge (if the Feds give him the option), serve his time, then live a quiet life off his money. I'm betting against him being smart.

That's an interesting thought but of course put in the spot you don't think that way you think "shit I don't wanna go to prison"

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 08:00 AM
Are we gonna turn it into that? Really, guy on my street has one......extremely friendly dog, I really wish people wouldn't classify a breed of dog as all bad or shit like that.
I'll not argue that there are friendly pit bulls around. However, I'll also not argue that pit bulls were originally bred for fighting... it's their instinct. A typical pit bull simply is more aggressive than a typical collie, etc. A pit bull's nature is to fight. Plain and simple.

cdcox
07-18-2007, 08:01 AM
It seems that way. Is there a completely different jury-selection process for federal cases?

I don't know about the jury selection process, but the Feds have a 95% conviction rate. Martha Stewart's money and fame didn't help her much.

Here is a good article on the legal periles that Vick faces.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2940312

Legal odds against Vick just got much longer
By Lester Munson
ESPN.com
(Archive)
Updated: July 17, 2007
Comment
Email
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A grand jury indicted Atlanta Falcons' quarterback Michael Vick on Tuesday, which at least partially answers one question that has lingered since the news first broke about an alleged dogfighting operation on property owned by Vick in Virginia: Was Vick involved? Obviously, we know now that investigators believe he was.


There are plenty of football-related issues still to be resolved about Vick's future with the Falcons and the NFL, but those might be the least of his concerns right now. Questions about his legal future abound at the moment. Here are some answers.

What do these federal charges mean for Michael Vick?

Vick is in real trouble. He is up against the might and majesty of the U.S. government with all of its agents, all of its investigative techniques, and all of its skilled prosecutors. If he has any doubts about the power and skill of the forces arrayed against him, he can call Scooter Libby, former chief of staff to Vice President Cheney, or he can call Lord Conrad Black, the disgraced media mogul now facing time in a federal penitentiary. If he still isn't convinced, he can call Jeff Skilling, the zillionaire Enron CEO who is now residing in a federal pen. All three of them hired brilliant (and expensive) lawyers. All three thought they could explain their way out from under federal charges. And all three were convicted. Vick can, and probably will, hire some of America's best defense lawyers, but they will face a serious battle.

Would Vick be sent to jail if he is convicted?

Yes. It's hard to imagine any other outcome. The charges are serious, and the evidence against Vick presented at trial will be nasty. The government's case includes evidence that Vick and his cohorts "tested" pit bulls for ferocity. If the dogs failed the test, the indictment charges, they were executed by hanging or drowning. In one case, with Vick present, the indictment says a dog was slammed to the ground until it was dead. In another incident, a dog was soaked with a hose and then electrocuted. Those aren't the sort of transgressions that lead to probation and community service. It's the kind of behavior that results in punishment, and the punishment will be jail time.

What is the next step for Vick?

Vick will now watch to see which of his three co-defendants will be the first to make a deal with federal prosecutors. Each of them will think seriously about turning on Vick and offering testimony against him in return for less time in jail. Vick obviously is the prime target of the government effort. Prosecutors and agents will be willing to talk with his co-defendants about a deal if they are willing to help prove the case against Vick. The government indictment discloses four witnesses who have already agreed to testify against him. If all three of his co-defendants join these four witnesses against Vick, he and his lawyers might suggest that he, too, should talk to the government about a deal that would minimize his time in jail.

Vick is charged with "conspiracy" and violations of the "Travel Act." What does that mean?

The conspiracy charge will make things extra difficult for Vick and his lawyers. Under federal laws, the conspiracy charge allows federal prosecutors to link Vick to things that occurred even if he was not present. If the prosecutors can connect the four defendants, then crimes committed by one of them can be used to add to the evidence against the others. It's a tricky legal procedure that prosecutors love and defense lawyers detest. The Travel Act is a device invented by Robert F. Kennedy when he was Attorney General in the early '60s. It was designed for use against organized crime and made it easier to prove cases against hoodlums. In the sports world, it was used most recently in the Salt Lake City Winter Olympics bribery scandal. Federal prosecutors charged the Utah organizers under the Travel Act and proved millions of dollars in bribes. Vick, however, can take some hope from the fact that U.S. District Judge David Sam found the organizers not guilty of violating the Travel Act, even though there was powerful evidence of bribery.

What was Vick's role in the dogfighting conspiracy described in the indictment?

According to the indictment, Vick was in the middle of everything from beginning to end. He purchased a vacant piece of property for $34,000, the indictment says. He then had sheds built for training dogs and staging fights and a fence erected to shield the operation from view. And finally, the indictment says, he had a two-story frame house with a basketball court put up as a residence for the people taking care of the dogs. If you believe the indictment, the Vick property had everything anyone could want in a dogfighting operation.

When would Vick's trial begin?

The federal courthouse in Richmond, Va., is the home of the nationally recognized "rocket docket." Cases move quickly in Richmond, more quickly than in any other courthouse in the federal system. Vick's lawyers will be looking for delays and for time to prepare a defense, but the trial likely would begin in a matter of four to six months.

Are the federal authorities in Richmond tough on crime?

Ask Ralph Sampson, the former NBA star. He fell behind in child support payments to seven children that he had with four women, the kind of thing that is ordinarily worked out in a settlement. But instead of a settlement, Sampson found himself charged with felonies in federal court. And then, very quickly, he found himself in jail for two months on a child support charge. Yes, they're tough on crime in Richmond, and they might be particularly tough on crimes involving the torture and killing of dogs.

ESPN.com's Lester Munson is a Chicago lawyer and journalist who has been reporting on investigative and legal issues in the sports industry for 18 years.

Silock
07-18-2007, 08:01 AM
Because gangsta thugs aren't nearly as cuddly as puppies.

What is the maximum sentence that Jared Allen could have received for his second DUI? The maximum sentence for dog fighting is only 1 year. The interstate commerce part if 5 years, so a max of 6 years IF, and only IF, they can prove to the court that these allegations are true. There is NO WAY that Vick is done. He won't serve any jail time for this at all.

I don't see how drowning or electrocuting a dog is any more cruel than fighting the dogs. If anything, I understand being angry at losing $13k and drowning the dog more than I understand somebody getting off on watching the dogs fight in the first place.

Sentencing for animal abuse, cruelty and neglect is a lot longer than 1 year, I thought. Any lawyers around here that know?

Lzen
07-18-2007, 08:02 AM
Once a piece of sh*t always a piece of sh*t.

Who would have thought that Marcus Vick would be the better person.


That's quite a family they got, eh? :shake:

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 08:02 AM
We only deal with purest. If you all want to get pissed off you should ask me to describe what a puppy mill is.
I know what a puppy mill is and I think people that run them should be de-nutted.

stevieray
07-18-2007, 08:04 AM
If he walks, I won't give the NFL another dime.

Silock
07-18-2007, 08:05 AM
That's because for some reason people around here think I'm always being serious when I'm not.....

It's nice for him to explode and all but I was just saying I think the NFL is showing a double standard in their conduct policy.

The Vick stuff is basically ridiculous and they can handle it either way and actually make an excuse for it. I wasn't trying to compare Allen to Vick I was just using Allen as a mild example of a bit of a double standard.

They can go either way with Vick they can not suspend him until he's actually convicted because "he's never been in trouble before" and innocent until proven guilty and all that...also they have some stake as one was once suppose to be someone the game was marketed around.

Or they suspend him now avoid the bad PR of not suspending him and all that comes with that.....and of course the players union freaking out on them for which I'm sure would happen seeing as well it's their job to do that for the most part.

There's pro's and con's to it they are likely weighing those...they almost have to do something to look even remotely consistent in this conduct policy and not look like a few guys were used a scapegoats to get the media off their backs.

I still don't see where there's a "double standard." The NFL just released a statement that basically said they weren't going to do anything until the legal process was finished.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 08:05 AM
If he walks, I won't give the NFL another dime.
If you watch a game on TV you're supporting it.

I won't go that far, but my respect for the organization will go down.

stevieray
07-18-2007, 08:07 AM
If you watch a game on TV you're supporting it.



no, that would be supporting the electric company.... :)

Silock
07-18-2007, 08:07 AM
Sometimes they whine and whimper about it, and if it gets bad enough, I inflict pain on them. What's wrong with that?

You shouldn't need to hit an animal unless it's biting you out of malice. If it's misbehaving, it's probably your fault.

JMO, and not a slam on you, btw.

Mecca
07-18-2007, 08:09 AM
I still don't see where there's a "double standard." The NFL just released a statement that basically said they weren't going to do anything until the legal process was finished.

So that means he's going to play this year? He isn't going to trial in a month.....unless something really unusual happens.

Silock
07-18-2007, 08:11 AM
So that means he's going to play this year? He isn't going to trial in a month.....unless something really unusual happens.

I have no idea, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Lzen
07-18-2007, 08:12 AM
jp goodwin is a terrorist member of the ALF.

I understand that Goodwin and the HSUS are similar moonbat orgs to PETA, but what does this really have to do with Vick? Yeah, he made some remarks. So what? If this indictment is true, Vick is a scumbag and people like him give good Pit owners, like you and Big Daddy, a bad name.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 08:12 AM
no, that would be supporting the electric company.... :)
No. Your viewership helps ratings. Ratings drive advertising money. Advertising money goes to NFL contracts for airing games.

You watching a game on TV supports the NFL.

Silock
07-18-2007, 08:13 AM
"We are disappointed that Michael Vick has put himself in a position where a federal grand jury has returned an indictment against him," NFL spokesman Brian McCarthy said.

"The activities alleged are cruel, degrading and illegal. Michael Vick's guilt has not yet been proven, and we believe that all concerned should allow the legal process to determine the facts."

Eleazar
07-18-2007, 08:14 AM
Some guy(s) in KC a few years back got sent to prison for killing one dog. I think they set it on fire. If I remember right, they got a pretty stiff sentence. If he was really doing these kinds of things hopefully he'll be sitting in a cell for a long time too.

cdcox
07-18-2007, 08:14 AM
So that means he's going to play this year? He isn't going to trial in a month.....unless something really unusual happens.

FWIW (probably not much), the ESPN article I posted mentioned that the Richmond Federal Court runs faster than most and that he could be on trial in 4 to 6 mos. That could overlap with the end of the season.

Mecca
07-18-2007, 08:15 AM
"We are disappointed that Michael Vick has put himself in a position where a federal grand jury has returned an indictment against him," NFL spokesman Brian McCarthy said.

"The activities alleged are cruel, degrading and illegal. Michael Vick's guilt has not yet been proven, and we believe that all concerned should allow the legal process to determine the facts."

Yep he is not being suspended.......if nothing happens before the season he is going to take the field....

I'm sure this will really go over well.

cdcox
07-18-2007, 08:17 AM
Yep he is not being suspended.......if nothing happens before the season he is going to take the field....

I wouldn't be at all surprised if a ground swell of bad PR caused the NFL or the Falcons to change their mind, ala Don Imus.

Mecca
07-18-2007, 08:19 AM
I wouldn't be at all surprised if a ground swell of bad PR caused the NFL or the Falcons to change their mind, ala Don Imus.

If they read that indictment and have that stance can anything really change them? That is highly nauseating and they are putting that out...this is really going to be a circus.

FringeNC
07-18-2007, 08:19 AM
"We are disappointed that Michael Vick has put himself in a position where a federal grand jury has returned an indictment against him," NFL spokesman Brian McCarthy said.

What a pathetic statement. Makes it sound as if Vick was a completely passive victim...

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 08:20 AM
I wouldn't be at all surprised if a ground swell of bad PR caused the NFL or the Falcons to change their mind, ala Don Imus.
I heard on radio last night (conjecture, I'm sure) Falcons may cut him altogether.

teedubya
07-18-2007, 08:21 AM
Check out the way back machine...

http://web.archive.org/web/20070506081425/www.vicksk9kennels.com/index_aboutus.html

Vicks' K-9 Kennels c/o MV7 Inc. :: 9863 - 9867 Moonlight Road, Suffolk, Va. MG09 99HT
Telephone: +1 800 603 6035
FAX: +1 800 889 9898

Mecca
07-18-2007, 08:21 AM
I heard on radio last night (conjecture, I'm sure) Falcons may cut him altogether.

I'd honestly be surprised even after all this........he may end up playing the whole season, I wonder what the general reaction of the public will be to all this.

Silock
07-18-2007, 08:22 AM
What a pathetic statement. Makes it sound as if Vick was a completely passive victim...

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, IMO.

I'll withhold the "he's a shitbag" comments until sentencing is handed down. None of us know all the facts of the situation, especially considering we're mostly getting our info from ESPN, who was WAY wrong about this shit up until now.

allen_kcCard
07-18-2007, 08:23 AM
Vicks only hope is for Bush to declare war on him because of his status as an obvious terrorist and crimes agains canines. Then the people and media will be up in arms against him for a few days, followed by a turn in the perspectives where people blame Bush for going too far and soon enough everyone forgets what Vick's cronies did. Before you know it.


Kidding aside, I have a few thoughts on this. First, everyone is more up in arms over what was allegedly done than that fact that laws were broken.

I could give a rats freaking ass what was done to the dogs. The only reason people are talking about it is because it is different when really all that matters is laws were broken.

There things being done to people, you know human beings, that are a million times worse with 2 million times more occurances and we are ready to have a witch hunt over what some idiots did to some poor dogs. I just laugh at how people are almost as hot about this as they were about the people responsible for 9/11 or the genocide in Iraq, or whatever else, and now many of those same people are whining because we had the balls to do something about just because they have lost thier zeal for it they think we should let it lie.


Treat it like it is. Crimes were committed, they just so happened to be against animals. If Vick was knowlingly associated then he should be punished on the merit of the laws he broke not on the basis of how loud little girls can squeal that they hurt a widdle puppy.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 08:23 AM
I'd honestly be surprised even after all this........he may end up playing the whole season, I wonder what the general reaction of the public will be to all this.
I don't know that I'd be surprised. The cap hit would be huge, so I doubt it will happen. But I think there will be a huge public outcry and the team will want to distance themselves.

Mecca
07-18-2007, 08:24 AM
Vicks only hope is for Bush to declare war on him because of his status as an obvious terrorist and crimes agains canines. Then the people and media will be up in arms against him for a few days, followed by a turn in the perspectives where people blame Bush for going too far and soon enough everyone forgets what Vick's cronies did. Before you know it.


Kidding aside, I have a few thoughts on this. First, everyone is more up in arms over what was allegedly done than that fact that laws were broken.

I could give a rats freaking ass what was done to the dogs. The only reason people are talking about it is because it is different when really all that matters is laws were broken.

There things being done to people, you know human beings, that are a million times worse with 2 million times more occurances and we are ready to have a witch hunt over what some idiots did to some poor dogs. I just laugh at how people are almost as hot about this as they were about the people responsible for 9/11 or the genocide in Iraq, or whatever else, and now many of those same people are whining because we had the balls to do something about just because they have lost thier zeal for it they think we should let it lie.


Treat it like it is. Crimes were committed, they just so happened to be against animals. If Vick was knowlingly associated then he should be punished on the merit of the laws he broke not on the basis of how loud little girls can squeal that they hurt a widdle puppy.

Oh man.....I don't even think I'll comment everyone else is probably going to be way more harsh to you than me.

cdcox
07-18-2007, 08:25 AM
If they read that indictment and have that stance can anything really change them? That is highly nauseating and they are putting that out...this is really going to be a circus.

Yeah, the NFL prides its self on its image. They are not going to sacrifice that public image (and the $) that goes with it to stand on principals of innocent until proven guilty, blah, blah, blah. If it looks like Vick is going to hurt the image of the NFL significantly (long term $), they will find a way to keep him off the field.

Eleazar
07-18-2007, 08:26 AM
Gee, I wonder what the general public's reaction will be to someone torturing a bunch of dogs. I'm not sure, I think the average joe might be on the fence about that...

Mecca
07-18-2007, 08:27 AM
Gee, I wonder what the general public's reaction will be to someone torturing a bunch of dogs. I'm not sure, I think the average joe might be on the fence about that...

You'll get people who go "innocent until proven guilty" probably alot of Falcons fans.......

HonestChieffan
07-18-2007, 08:28 AM
he could be fed to a bunch of pits...

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 08:28 AM
Treat it like it is. Crimes were committed, they just so happened to be against animals. If Vick was knowlingly associated then he should be punished on the merit of the laws he broke not on the basis of how loud little girls can squeal that they hurt a widdle puppy.
I think most people get up in arms about animal cruelty because it's against a smaller, weaker animal that is not able to defend itself sufficiently.

And not all broken laws are equal, which is why there isn't a single catch all punishment. A DUI isn't the same as animal cruelty and dog fighting.

FringeNC
07-18-2007, 08:29 AM
Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, IMO.



Right, but whether Vick is proven guilty in a court of law isn't the only factor in the court of public opinion. Is OJ really innocent? I'd be tempted to allow for the possibility that this was a witch hunt if it weren't for the fact that Vick hasn't publicly defended himself. These are serious allegations, both legally and to Vick's endorsement contracts....yet the guy has remained silent. Why?

Mecca
07-18-2007, 08:30 AM
Such as I just pulled this up somewhere else where I read and discuss things..........this was posted..

Vick probably won't get a conviction. THeir entire case is based on witness accounts, which any lawyer will tear apart. Plus with the small punishment attached, the other two guys named in the case will probably claim it was all them and Vick had nothing to do with it. Looking at the indictment, they don't have anything material to link Vick. Only the claims of a few informants.

Now do I think he actually did it? The level of specifics of some of the stories are striking (the ones about him coming to the fights and such). The dog killings, all of them are "after consulting Vick" and then the other two killed the dogs. Thos are iffy hearsay crap. But involved, yeah, he probably was. But he isn't going to get convicted on this.

But there is no way they could suspend him for this upcoming season. It would have to be after a conviction.

allen_kcCard
07-18-2007, 08:30 AM
Oh man.....I don't even think I'll comment everyone else is probably going to be way more harsh to you than me.


Harsh how? Because I had the audacity to compare it to something as horrible as crimes against humanity? The "gruesome, sick, graphic" commenters are reacting worse over this than what is happening to thier own kind.



I probably will get flamed, I don't really give a rats. But it is rediculous at the screaming over this when to me it could be as important as if he commited tax fraud when you look at the bigger picture.

cdcox
07-18-2007, 08:32 AM
You'll get people who go "innocent until proven guilty" probably alot of Falcons fans.......

Falcons boards last night were running about 50/50. Some who were taking a wait and see before the indictment were now ready for the Joey Harrington era ( ROFL ROFL ROFL ) to begin.

HonestChieffan
07-18-2007, 08:32 AM
yea a DUI can only end up in a result like killing people.

stevieray
07-18-2007, 08:32 AM
No. Your viewership helps ratings. Ratings drive advertising money. Advertising money goes to NFL contracts for airing games.

You watching a game on TV supports the NFL.

advertisers are going to spend the money regardless..I'm talking tickets, apparel,etc..

El Jefe
07-18-2007, 08:32 AM
Thug, plain and simple. With all that money he cant find anything better to spend it on, at least something thats not illegal.

penguinz
07-18-2007, 08:37 AM
I don't know about all the hating stuff. I don't hate you at all. But I do think Penguinz is right about the fact that you throw a lot of crap out there and rarely does any of it stick.Bingo

stevieray
07-18-2007, 08:38 AM
.


Treat it like it is. Crimes were committed, they just so happened to be against animals. If Vick was knowlingly associated then he should be punished on the merit of the laws he broke not on the basis of how loud little girls can squeal that they hurt a widdle puppy.

It's about right and wrong, and your character commensurating with your pay scale. He has repeatedly shown he doesn't deserve to be paid at a professional level for juvenile actions.

cdcox
07-18-2007, 08:38 AM
yea a DUI can only end up in a result like killing people.

There is no question that the possible consequences of a DUI (killing another human) are far, far worse than the death of an animal.

The problem is intent. The intent of someone who commits a DUI is to have a good time and get back home. It is irresponsible and illegal, but does not include an intent to harm. The intent of the torture acts was to willfully inflict cruel pain. That difference is what will elevate the severity of what Vick is accused of beyond a DUI in most peoples eyes.

allen_kcCard
07-18-2007, 08:38 AM
They didn't torture dogs. I'm not condoning what they did to them in any way shape or form, but what they did was kill them when they weren't useful to them anymore. All the stuff that I've read that was done isn't all that much worse what what some people that "love" thier pets do daily, i.e. kicking, choke collaring, shock collaring, leaving in the heat, etc.

Part of what I read above suggested that because one of them shocked a dog it was more cruel than other people in the same business are just because they shoot them, you know the normal way.


Its a witch hunt, and they are trumping up the cruelty card just to try and get the mob in a lather so the media will jump on the bandwagon and they can have them a good ole fashioned burning at the stake.

teedubya
07-18-2007, 08:40 AM
i bet one could get a cheap Mike Vick jersey on ebay today.

StcChief
07-18-2007, 08:40 AM
Goddell may have other ideas here. Interesting to see how he play Vick issue.

FAX
07-18-2007, 08:41 AM
Clearly, conVick is innocent until proven guilty. But, where there's mutilated dog carcases, there's usually fire.

I do believe, however, that, based on this indictment, his previous claims that he had no idea what was happening on the property was bogus. What I will never understand is what motivates someone with his success to find any enjoyment whatsoever in dog fighting. It's amazingly stupid.

FAX

stevieray
07-18-2007, 08:44 AM
. All the stuff that I've read that was done isn't all that much worse what what some people that "love" thier pets do daily, i.e. kicking, choke collaring, shock collaring, leaving in the heat, etc.



using a negative to excuse another negative is weak.

ChiefsfaninPA
07-18-2007, 08:49 AM
Its a witch hunt, and they are trumping up the cruelty card just to try and get the mob in a lather so the media will jump on the bandwagon and they can have them a good ole fashioned burning at the stake.

I'm guessing this is a Falcons fan.
:hmmm:

allen_kcCard
07-18-2007, 08:51 AM
I'm not excusing it, I'm comparing it. Is everyone excusing the people that commited the other negatives? I don't see them crucifying all those others for what they did/do.

Hell, they are making deals with other dog fighters that did the same things just for them to testify just to get to big name Vick (witch hunt)

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 08:52 AM
They didn't torture dogs. I'm not condoning what they did to them in any way shape or form, but what they did was kill them when they weren't useful to them anymore. All the stuff that I've read that was done isn't all that much worse what what some people that "love" thier pets do daily, i.e. kicking, choke collaring, shock collaring, leaving in the heat, etc.

Part of what I read above suggested that because one of them shocked a dog it was more cruel than other people in the same business are just because they shoot them, you know the normal way.


Its a witch hunt, and they are trumping up the cruelty card just to try and get the mob in a lather so the media will jump on the bandwagon and they can have them a good ole fashioned burning at the stake.
Did you not read the part where he and another person allegedly wet a dog down and electrocuted it? Or where he and someone else allegedly body slammed it to kill it? Yeah, that's the same as swatting a dog's behind because he ate your cookie.

teedubya
07-18-2007, 08:53 AM
Clearly, conVick is innocent until proven guilty. But, where there's mutilated dog carcases, there's usually fire.

I do believe, however, that, based on this indictment, his previous claims that he had no idea what was happening on the property was bogus. What I will never understand is what motivates someone with his success to find any enjoyment whatsoever in dog fighting. It's amazingly stupid.

FAX

yeah, considering he had a website called VickK9Kennels.com

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 08:53 AM
I'm not excusing it, I'm comparing it. Is everyone excusing the people that commited the other negatives? I don't see them crucifying all those others for what they did/do.

Hell, they are making deals with other dog fighters that did the same things just for them to testify just to get to big name Vick (witch hunt)
We're talking about Vick because he's the face here. I don't think anyone here thinks the other guys should get off lightly by naming Vick. I think we all believe they all should be punished. We're talking about Vick because he's the one everyone knows.

Idiot.

HonestChieffan
07-18-2007, 08:53 AM
Its all this thug culture thing. Hope that LJ and his buddies are paying attention.

allen_kcCard
07-18-2007, 08:56 AM
I'm guessing this is a Falcons fan.
:hmmm:


You caught me, I signed up here in 2004 just in case Vick ever got himself involved in something stupid so I could come here and defend him.


Although, I'm not definding him in the slightest, I just don't agree with the huge influx of screaming over what was done. Next thing you know there will be candlelight vigils outgside his home in rememberance of the dogs brutally robbed of thier childhood and slain at the hands of bloodthirsty hooligans, bent on ending ending lives of puppies for thier own cruel twisted entertainment.

stevieray
07-18-2007, 08:56 AM
I'm not excusing it, I'm comparing it. Is everyone excusing the people that commited the other negatives? I don't see them crucifying all those others for what they did/do.



I'm confident the majority of this board would never condone those actions either...

by your logic, being held accountable is parallel to being a victim.

cdcox
07-18-2007, 08:59 AM
Its all this thug culture thing. Hope that LJ and his buddies are paying attention.

The SI story a few months ago mentioned a "Pro-Bowl running back" that was also involved in dog fighting.

LJ's buddy Jay-Z put out a music video with a dog fighting theme a few years back.

I sure hope LJ isn't stupid enought to get wrapped up in something like this.

allen_kcCard
07-18-2007, 09:01 AM
Did you not read the part where he and another person allegedly wet a dog down and electrocuted it? Or where he and someone else allegedly body slammed it to kill it? Yeah, that's the same as swatting a dog's behind because he ate your cookie.


Not torture. Killing. They did that to kill them, not to torture them.

It is still wrong, because ot thier intent, but it is different. People do the same damn thing to a fish before they gut it.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 09:02 AM
The SI story a few months ago mentioned a "Pro-Bowl running back" that was also involved in dog fighting.

Are you sure they weren't actually talking about Vick and forgot he was a QB?

Silock
07-18-2007, 09:02 AM
Not torture. Killing. They did that to kill them, not to torture them.

It is still wrong, because ot thier intent, but it is different. People do the same damn thing to a fish before they gut it.

I've never electrocuted a fish.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 09:03 AM
Not torture. Killing. They did that to kill them, not to torture them.

It is still wrong, because ot thier intent, but it is different. People do the same damn thing to a fish before they gut it.
You would argue that breeding a dog to fight for our entertainment is not a form of torture? "Rolling" a dog, training it to be aggressive by shocking it, instigating it, forcing it to fight for its life isn't torture?

Your and idiot.

HonestChieffan
07-18-2007, 09:04 AM
anyone who would find any reason to defend Vick is insane. Hes a thug and should be made an example of.

Maybe this will finally move the pit issue to a higher level. Killing kids didnt do it, maybe footabll players with killer dogs will.

FAX
07-18-2007, 09:05 AM
I board a bunch of fighting fish. Have for years.

You get them in the mood by pulling on their little fins. It really pisses them off.

FAX

allen_kcCard
07-18-2007, 09:05 AM
I'm confident the majority of this board would never condone those actions either...

by your logic, being held accountable is parallel to being a victim.


You mean like the Duke players? They were sure as hell held accountable, weren't they.


By my logic, people should stop getting into a foaming lather when an athelete gets into trouble until after they have been tried. And even then they should treat them like a human that did something wrong instead of and angel falling from heaven.

Mecca
07-18-2007, 09:07 AM
Enough with the desire to talk shit and wish for the extermination of a breed of dog.....this is about Vick's dumb ass not your dumb ass view of a dog breed.

FAX
07-18-2007, 09:07 AM
If they refuse to fight, we take away their sunken pirate ship.

FAX

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 09:10 AM
If they refuse to fight, we take away their sunken pirate ship.

FAX
I have been known to throw a FAX machine against the wall that didn't work.

Lzen
07-18-2007, 09:11 AM
What a pathetic statement. Makes it sound as if Vick was a completely passive victim...

Why should the NFL take a chance? What if the NFL suspends him? What if Vick is found not guilty? Then he turns around and sues the NFL? I don't blame them for taking the wait and see approach. They have to be very careful here.

Lzen
07-18-2007, 09:17 AM
Harsh how? Because I had the audacity to compare it to something as horrible as crimes against humanity? The "gruesome, sick, graphic" commenters are reacting worse over this than what is happening to thier own kind.



I probably will get flamed, I don't really give a rats. But it is rediculous at the screaming over this when to me it could be as important as if he commited tax fraud when you look at the bigger picture.
No, you dumb shit. People get up in arms over crimes committed against weaker or helpless victims. When a child is molested/killed, people scream about that, too. This particular case gets a lot of people up in arms because it is someone famous. It's not every day that these things happen with a celeb involved.

ChiefsfaninPA
07-18-2007, 09:19 AM
Why should the NFL take a chance? What if the NFL suspends him? What if Vick is found not guilty? Then he turns around and sues the NFL? I don't blame them for taking the wait and see approach. They have to be very careful here.

The NFL has suspended Pacman and he hasn't been convicted of anything either.

pikesome
07-18-2007, 09:19 AM
Yeah, the NFL prides its self on its image. They are not going to sacrifice that public image (and the $) that goes with it to stand on principals of innocent until proven guilty, blah, blah, blah. If it looks like Vick is going to hurt the image of the NFL significantly (long term $), they will find a way to keep him off the field.

The NFL's standards for evidence aren't the same as the Feds'. I'm sure they have feelers out looking for information and will figure out if he did it or not. Just because they haven't convicted him doesn't mean he didn't do it. We force the Gov to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" for a reason, those same standards apply in very few other arenas. Since the main concern for the NFL and the NFLPA is bad press (and the $ loss) I'd expect them to do something before a conviction comes down, get ahead of the story as they say.

allen_kcCard
07-18-2007, 09:19 AM
You would argue that breeding a dog to fight for our entertainment is not a form of torture? "Rolling" a dog, training it to be aggressive by shocking it, instigating it, forcing it to fight for its life isn't torture?

Your and idiot.


"Rolling" the dog is putting it in a short fight to see how it reacts, they shocked it to kill it from everything I've read.


It may have been torture in a noun definition, that being extreme physical pain, but not a verb as in inflicting pain for sheer curelty or information gathering. Unless you want to say that boxers are being tortured because it hurts too?

The word torture, or exectution in this case is just a way of trumping up the outrage of what was done. It sounds worse than how it is. What happened is this: They broke the law by holding illegal dog fights. Dogs were killed when either they proved to be bad fighters or put out of thier misery when they lost a match and were badly maimed. They were also put in situations where they would develop aggresive behaiviors as part of thier training. It is just as wrong, but it doesn't put human connotations to what was done to make it sound even worse than it was.


And I have yet to call you names, how about dropping the idiot bullshit.

Lzen
07-18-2007, 09:20 AM
yea a DUI can only end up in a result like killing people.

If you're referring to Jared Allen's situation, I do believe a lot of people here were ready to move on without him if he chose to continue being a dumb ass by being a danger to the public. However, he appears to be trying to put that behind him and become a good citizen. Are people not worthy of second chances?

pikesome
07-18-2007, 09:21 AM
Why should the NFL take a chance? What if the NFL suspends him? What if Vick is found not guilty? Then he turns around and sues the NFL? I don't blame them for taking the wait and see approach. They have to be very careful here.

He can't really sue if it goes down like that. I posed a thread about the legal aspects of the suspensions a bit ago, basically the agreement between the NFLPA and the NFL makes a suit really, really hard.

Lzen
07-18-2007, 09:22 AM
They didn't torture dogs.

Your and idiot. Electrocuting (I imagine this was way more voltage than your typical shock/training collar) and slamming them onto the ground until they die is torture.

HonestChieffan
07-18-2007, 09:24 AM
NFL cannot let this go.

allen_kcCard
07-18-2007, 09:24 AM
No, you dumb shit. People get up in arms over crimes committed against weaker or helpless victims. When a child is molested/killed, people scream about that, too. This particular case gets a lot of people up in arms because it is someone famous. It's not every day that these things happen with a celeb involved.


People should scream about a child being harmed, or a bum being beat up. I for one would be pissed off if something was done to someone I care for and a dog being killed is more important to everyone than seeking justice for them.

Again with the names. You people are so graphic and inhumane.

Lzen
07-18-2007, 09:26 AM
Not torture. Killing. They did that to kill them, not to torture them.

It is still wrong, because ot thier intent, but it is different. People do the same damn thing to a fish before they gut it.

Who do you know that electrocutes their fish before cleaning them?
:rolleyes:

allen_kcCard
07-18-2007, 09:27 AM
Your and idiot. Electrocuting (I imagine this was way more voltage than your typical shock/training collar) and slamming them onto the ground until they die is torture.



Your name calling has worked, I'm on board. Lets go round up anyone that has knocked a fish against a rock to kill it, along with all the chicken processers that electrocute those poor little chickens and show them for what they really are. Bloodthirsty torturers. Since that is what they are really doing, torturing, not killing them.

Donger
07-18-2007, 09:27 AM
Who do you know that electrocutes their fish before cleaning them?
:rolleyes:

I'm assuming that these 'men' did not eat the dogs?

Lzen
07-18-2007, 09:28 AM
You mean like the Duke players? They were sure as hell held accountable, weren't they.

Held accountable for what? They were not guilty. The stupid ho and the prosecutor were out for blood and were lying the whole way.

pikesome
07-18-2007, 09:28 AM
Here's why Vick is getting suspended:

Several on- and off-field incidents in the Premiership recently have seen football removed from the sports pages and dumped unceremoniously into the comment section for every societal columnist to have his or her say. Lee Bowyer, Joey Barton, Craig Bellamy and Wayne Rooney have all been blamed for everything that is wrong with the youth of today, for every ill that is committed on the streets. But in the UK it is not the footballers who are committing these ills; in the US, it is.

Between the end of the 2006 and start of the 2007 seasons, no fewer than 25 players on 17 of the NFL's 32 teams were arrested for offences such as unlawful use of a weapon and domestic assault. Indeed, nine Cincinnati Bengals players were arrested in nine months. Even two Carolina Panthers cheerleaders got in on the act, sparking a brawl after being caught having sex in some bar toilets.

This year, NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has launched a new code of conduct calling on players to portray themselves as better role models, and has clamped down on off-field misbehaviour. Cincinnati Bengals wide receiver Chris Henry, who had been arrested four times in three states in a 14-month span, was suspended for the first half of the season. Defensive tackle Terry "Tank" Johnson was also banned for eight games and has since been ditched by the Chicago Bears - his legal troubles include an aggravated assault, resisting arrest, violating probation and possessing unlicensed weapons.

But the only player to have been banned for an entire season under the new code of conduct is Adam "Pacman" Jones, the Tennessee Titans cornerback, though even he could yet be reinstated after 11 games if he meets specific conditions. Jones has so far had more arrests than interceptions since he was drafted by the Titans in 2005. His most recent charge came in February at the NBA All-Star Game in Las Vegas, when he was involved in an altercation at a strip club which ended when a bouncer was shot twice. He has since surrendered on two charges of felony and been sued by another bouncer who was shot and claims his ankle was bitten by Jones.

When Goodell unveiled his new disciplinary programme, he said: "It is important that the NFL be represented consistently by outstanding people as well as great football players, coaches and staff. We hold ourselves to higher standards of responsible conduct because of what it means to be part of the NFL. We have long had polices and programs designed to encourage responsible behaviour, and this policy is a further step in ensuring that everyone who is part of the NFL meets that standard."

But little seems to have changed, and now Goodell faces his biggest dilemma after Michael Vick was indicted for allegedly being at the forefront of the Bad Newz Kennels dog-fighting ring. The background to this story makes gruesome reading, and it is alleged that Vick and the three others charged not only set up fights, but also murdered dogs that weren't willing to fight by "hanging, drowning and slamming at least one dog's body to the ground".

Vick's alleged actions have caused uproar in the US and, if found guilty, he faces up to five years in jail and the end of his career. But what if his sentence is shorter and he is healthy to play on his release? Would Goodell seek to make a statement by banning Vick for life?

Some in the US argue that Goodell's punishments thus far have not been a sufficient deterrent to put an end to criminal activity, and cite the NFL's pitiful drugs suspensions (a four-game ban for a first offence of taking steroids) as evidence of this. Others say criminal behaviour off the field is a natural sequitor of how the sport trains uneducated young men to be aggressive, vicious and merciless on the field. Yet more commentators believe the athletes must distance themselves from the entourage they have built up since high school if they wish to change their ways.

Each assertion has validity - Goodell, the coaches and the players themselves must work closely to ensure Vick's indictment marks a watershed and to enhance the NFL's image. It won't be easy. The Premiership doesn't know how lucky it is.

It's from a Guardian blog (a Brit newspaper). With the NFL looking to expand over seas this kind of press ain't good.


Link (http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/07/18/guns_brawls_and_dogfighting.html)

Donger
07-18-2007, 09:28 AM
Your name calling has worked, I'm on board. Lets go round up anyone that has knocked a fish against a rock to kill it, along with all the chicken processers that electrocute those poor little chickens and show them for what they really are. Bloodthirsty torturers. Since that is what they are really doing, torturing, not killing them.

I'm assuming that these 'men' did not eat the dogs?

allen_kcCard
07-18-2007, 09:28 AM
Who do you know that electrocutes their fish before cleaning them? IdIOT
:rolleyes:


Slammed on the ground until the life has drained from thier poor broken bodies, robbed of thier innocence, is what I would be referring to.


edit, ooh, and I fixed your post.

allen_kcCard
07-18-2007, 09:30 AM
Held accountable for what? They were not guilty. The stupid ho and the prosecutor were out for blood and were lying the whole way.


Yeah, and the media and bloodthirsty mobs were just as wrong.

Lzen
07-18-2007, 09:31 AM
The NFL has suspended Pacman and he hasn't been convicted of anything either.

See, I haven't followed that close enough. So what exactly has happened in his case? Has he been charged? Did he plea to something already or is there going to be some trial? What exactly are the charges? I need more info before I can compare the 2 situations.

Lzen
07-18-2007, 09:33 AM
He can't really sue if it goes down like that. I posed a thread about the legal aspects of the suspensions a bit ago, basically the agreement between the NFLPA and the NFL makes a suit really, really hard.

If that is true then the NFL should suspend him. Not necessarily saying I agree with that stance. But it is only fair considering that's what they did to Pacman Jones.

Lzen
07-18-2007, 09:35 AM
Your name calling has worked, I'm on board. Lets go round up anyone that has knocked a fish against a rock to kill it, along with all the chicken processers that electrocute those poor little chickens and show them for what they really are. Bloodthirsty torturers. Since that is what they are really doing, torturing, not killing them.

Apples and oranges. If you are not smart enough to see the difference, there is no point in continuing this debate.

allen_kcCard
07-18-2007, 09:35 AM
I'm assuming that these 'men' did not eat the dogs?


Point taken, and I agree with you. But my point is that they did something illegal and it is illegal because it is cruelty to animals. That doesn't mean it is cruelty to the magnitude that it is being made out to be. People are more bent about this than for something that would merit the death penalty.

Skip Towne
07-18-2007, 09:36 AM
Why should the NFL take a chance? What if the NFL suspends him? What if Vick is found not guilty? Then he turns around and sues the NFL? I don't blame them for taking the wait and see approach. They have to be very careful here.
I think you're right.

pikesome
07-18-2007, 09:36 AM
See, I haven't followed that close enough. So what exactly has happened in his case? Has he been charged? Did he plea to something already or is there going to be some trial? What exactly are the charges? I need more info before I can compare the 2 situations.

I'm not privy to the info but my guess is that the police have solid evidence connecting to the events just not enough, as of yet, to actually charge him. The police need enough evidence to have a reasonable chance at a conviction before they file. The NFL took a look at it and decided to do something beforehand. Which is their right based on their agreements with the NFLPA.

Donger
07-18-2007, 09:36 AM
Point taken, and I agree with you. But my point is that they did something illegal and it is illegal because it is cruelty to animals. That doesn't mean it is cruelty to the magnitude that it is being made out to be. People are more bent about this than for something that would merit the death penalty.

Some people have an emotional attachment to animals, particularly dogs.

The Franchise
07-18-2007, 09:37 AM
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n189/pestilenceaf23/mongrel.jpg

Eleazar
07-18-2007, 09:38 AM
Maybe his cellmate will have a rape stand too?

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 09:39 AM
"Rolling" the dog is putting it in a short fight to see how it reacts, they shocked it to kill it from everything I've read.

It may have been torture in a noun definition, that being extreme physical pain, but not a verb as in inflicting pain for sheer curelty or information gathering. Unless you want to say that boxers are being tortured because it hurts too?

The word torture, or exectution in this case is just a way of trumping up the outrage of what was done. It sounds worse than how it is. What happened is this: They broke the law by holding illegal dog fights. Dogs were killed when either they proved to be bad fighters or put out of thier misery when they lost a match and were badly maimed. They were also put in situations where they would develop aggresive behaiviors as part of thier training. It is just as wrong, but it doesn't put human connotations to what was done to make it sound even worse than it was.

And I have yet to call you names, how about dropping the idiot bullshit.


First... how about not acting like an idiot and I'll stop calling you one.

No one is saying that a child being killed is better than a dog being killed. No one. Don't believe people get upset about it? Go read this thread:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=144027&highlight=hounddog

People on here are upset about putting a child in the imaginary position of being raped on screen. Not for real.

Are you serious about calling boxing torture? Yeah... a boxer who decides to fight for his living is no different than someone who forces a dog to fight for his life. A person doesn't think for themselves and put themselves in that position, do they? And I'm guessing at dog fights, they just put them in a cage and say, "Now, Fido... bark once for fight, twice for don't fight."

pikesome
07-18-2007, 09:40 AM
If that is true then the NFL should suspend him. Not necessarily saying I agree with that stance. But it is only fair considering that's what they did to Pacman Jones.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=164113&highlight=legal+suspensions

The article points out that, in theory, Goodell is the most powerful commish in sports. I think the only worry for Goodell is that if he comes down too soon on Vick that the union will change it's mind on being cooperative. Who knows though, I can't see this going over well with at least some of the players as is.

allen_kcCard
07-18-2007, 09:41 AM
Apples and oranges. If you are not smart enough to see the difference, there is no point in continuing this debate.


The only difference is one is illegal and the other is not. If feeding goldfish to a piranha were illegal this would be about the same as that but it isn't, so in this case we call them torturers instead of hobbyists.



And there isn't really any point in continuing the debate since me so stoopid. You aren't going to see my point that this isn't that big a deal beyond the fact that something was done that is illegal.

Lzen
07-18-2007, 09:42 AM
Yeah, and the media and bloodthirsty mobs were just as wrong.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If you're insinuating that I have condemned Vick already, you're barking up the wrong tree.

When the Duke lacrosse players were being condemned in the media, I did not join in the public condemnations. I took a wait and see approach. To me, that story looked bogus from the beginning. As it turned out, I was right.

OnTheWarpath15
07-18-2007, 09:43 AM
With Leather did a nice Photoshop.....

Look who's 3rd from the left......

allen_kcCard
07-18-2007, 09:43 AM
First... how about not acting like an idiot and I'll stop calling you one.

No one is saying that a child being killed is better than a dog being killed. No one. Don't believe people get upset about it? Go read this thread:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=144027&highlight=hounddog

People on here are upset about putting a child in the imaginary position of being raped on screen. Not for real.

Are you serious about calling boxing torture? Yeah... a boxer who decides to fight for his living is no different than someone who forces a dog to fight for his life. A person doesn't think for themselves and put themselves in that position, do they? And I'm guessing at dog fights, they just put them in a cage and say, "Now, Fido... bark once for fight, twice for don't fight."


I'm not calling boxing torture. I'm saying that calling what they did torture is offbase. Try reading a little closer, if you need me to I'll get you cliffnotes.

Lzen
07-18-2007, 09:43 AM
Point taken, and I agree with you. But my point is that they did something illegal and it is illegal because it is cruelty to animals. That doesn't mean it is cruelty to the magnitude that it is being made out to be. People are more bent about this than for something that would merit the death penalty.

I think dog fighting is a disgusting and cruel practice. Anyone involved should have their nuts ripped out. But that's just my opinion.

Lzen
07-18-2007, 09:45 AM
I'm not privy to the info but my guess is that the police have solid evidence connecting to the events just not enough, as of yet, to actually charge him. The police need enough evidence to have a reasonable chance at a conviction before they file. The NFL took a look at it and decided to do something beforehand. Which is their right based on their agreements with the NFLPA.

I see. I did not realize that they could do that without possible reprocussions later.

allen_kcCard
07-18-2007, 09:46 AM
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If you're insinuating that I have condemned Vick already, you're barking up the wrong tree.

When the Duke lacrosse players were being condemned in the media, I did not join in the public condemnations. I took a wait and see approach. To me, that story looked bogus from the beginning. As it turned out, I was right.


I'm not trying to bark at any trees. My whole point to all of this is that the media and people are blowing this way out of proportion. It is a crime committed involving animals, not bloodthirsty torture and execution.

HonestChieffan
07-18-2007, 09:50 AM
I wonder Mr Allan-...what levels of cruelty would u find objection to?

allen_kcCard
07-18-2007, 09:52 AM
I wonder Mr Allan-...what levels of cruelty would u find objection to?


I object to these ones, and any of them really. I don't say what they did is no big deal, I'm just saying that it isn't the holocaust that it is being made out to be.

CoMoChief
07-18-2007, 09:54 AM
Burn in hell Vick. I hope you get hit by a car and die.

HonestChieffan
07-18-2007, 09:57 AM
so torture done at a low level is ok. Just checking.

hawkchief
07-18-2007, 09:58 AM
Vick has played his last down in the NFL, period. Goodell realizes the NFL franchise value is too high to tarnish it by rolling out scum like Vick in front of fans paying $100.00 per game. The league would become a circus overnight, and there are way too many $$$$ at stake for the NFL to self-inflict that significant of a wound on itself.

Dave Lane
07-18-2007, 09:58 AM
I'd honestly be surprised even after all this........he may end up playing the whole season, I wonder what the general reaction of the public will be to all this.


I would refuse to get on the field with him if I was a player on the Falcons. Unless I was a offensive lineman...

Dave

allen_kcCard
07-18-2007, 10:01 AM
so torture done at a low level is ok. Just checking.


Yeah, thats totally what I said.


It is easier to just go with the Mob, Vick is an aberration and should be removed from society for life, better yet we should put him in his rightful place on death row.

DMAC
07-18-2007, 10:05 AM
He obviously should not go to prison for life or anything. Maybe not even any prison at all.

But, he should lose his job...that is for sure.

If your boss found out you were doing this plus you got indicted for it, you would be fired.

stevieray
07-18-2007, 10:12 AM
Yeah, thats totally what I said.


It is easier to just go with the Mob, Vick is an aberration and should be removed from society for life, better yet we should put him in his rightful place on death row.


what a drama queen.... :rolleyes:

Adept Havelock
07-18-2007, 10:17 AM
While I'm fairly sure it won't happen, I certainly wouldn't mind Mr. Vick being provided the opportunity to learn to squeal like a pig from his cellmate Bruno.

Perhaps Bruno can teach him what it feels like to repeatedly almost drown in a prison cell toilet as well.

Then, the electroshocks. :fire:

Chief Pote
07-18-2007, 10:21 AM
He's friggin trailer trash and he's done in the NFL. He can join his brother in the unemployment line AFTER they release him from the slammer.

DJJasonp
07-18-2007, 10:22 AM
Boy...after reading this article....if true....OJ has a better chance of getting back in the NFL than Vick!

Redrum_69
07-18-2007, 10:22 AM
THis isnt the pitbulls fault

MOhillbilly
07-18-2007, 10:24 AM
IF the feds can get the interstate transport law to stick & w/ the stiffer transport law signed into law this year Vick will do time.

i dont agree with the way he culled his dogs but its his PRIVATE PROPERTY and he should be able to do what he wants w/ his LIVESTOCK.

hawkchief
07-18-2007, 10:27 AM
[QUOTE=MOhillbilly]IF the feds can get the interstate transport law to stick & w/ the stiffer transport law signed into law this year Vick will do time.

[B]i dont agree with the way he culled his dogs but its his PRIVATE PROPERTY and he should be able to do what he wants w/ his LIVESTOCK.


First time I've heard animals that are usually referred to as pets, as LIVESTOCK. Why not just refer to them as trash, if they are going to be treated as such?

pikesome
07-18-2007, 10:29 AM
First time I've heard animals usually referred to as pets, as LIVESTOCK. Why not just refer to them as trash, if they are going to be treated as such?

I've never electrocuted my trash for losing a fight.

Redrum_69
07-18-2007, 10:29 AM
Things like this happen morre and more these days, but rarely does it ever make it to national headlines.

I'm pretty damn sure slaughter houses arent regulated as much as they should be. Chicken/turkey farms that torture the chickens before they are skinned...cows tortured before they are sent to the meat packing plants...

we wont even talk about the dog food making plants

or the chinese fast food restaurants next door to the doggy day cares...

Fat Elvis
07-18-2007, 10:33 AM
so torture done at a low level is ok. Just checking.
It is called "enhanced interrogation."

pikesome
07-18-2007, 10:35 AM
Things like this happen morre and more these days, but rarely does it ever make it to national headlines.

I'm pretty damn sure slaughter houses arent regulated as much as they should be. Chicken/turkey farms that torture the chickens before they are skinned...cows tortured before they are sent to the meat packing plants...

we wont even talk about the dog food making plants

or the chinese fast food restaurants next door to the doggy day cares...

But people don't keep chickens as pets very often. That's why this gets people pissed, a family dog is like a full human family member to a lot of people. They're in a different class than livestock raised for eating.

MOhillbilly
07-18-2007, 10:36 AM
[QUOTE=MOhillbilly]IF the feds can get the interstate transport law to stick & w/ the stiffer transport law signed into law this year Vick will do time.

[B]i dont agree with the way he culled his dogs but its his PRIVATE PROPERTY and he should be able to do what he wants w/ his LIVESTOCK.


First time I've heard animals that are usually referred to as pets, as LIVESTOCK. Why not just refer to them as trash, if they are going to be treated as such?

im sure that is a mind blowing concept, do you consider a chicken a pet?

some people do some dont.

what about hunting dogs? more tool than pet? people have pet hogs,hit them in the head w/ a hammer and eat ham on christmas.

FAX
07-18-2007, 10:38 AM
... i dont agree with the way he culled his dogs but its his PRIVATE PROPERTY and he should be able to do what he wants w/ his LIVESTOCK.

I generally agree with this statement, Mr. MOhillbilly, but it raises an interesting moral point. When I lived in an agrarian community, it was clear that the vast majority of the farmers, ranchers, etc. took very good care of their stock. However, there was always an outlier or two and these guys were looked down upon by their fellows. For example, in my community, if a guy put a colt in water and electrocuted it, he would get a lot of bad rep from the other ranchers.

To me, there is an acceptable level of care one should maintain for animals that doesn't include disposal by electrocution or body slamming. I realize that it's a fine line and, as you say, the freedom to do what you wish on and with your own property applies, but don't you think that a reasonable standard of care consistent with societal norms or mores should also be considered?

FAX

Demonpenz
07-18-2007, 10:48 AM
I just ordered dish so i could get nfl network to watch the soap opera unfold!

MOhillbilly
07-18-2007, 10:51 AM
but don't you think that a reasonable standard of care consistent with societal norms or mores should also be considered?

FAX


absolutely it is a fine line. myself i take the best care i can & cant afford.
and when i lose a charge i really have a rough time of it.

but if a man wants to brain his livestock w/a 9 iron thats his buisness be it dog,cat,goat,baby rabbits.


id just as soon not associate w/ those individuals,but it doesnt change the fact that its his property.

Smed1065
07-18-2007, 10:57 AM
Atlanta news is reporting that the Falcons are meeting today and will have a press release this evening. Stated it will probably be round 6 PM Eastern.

MOhillbilly
07-18-2007, 10:59 AM
Atlanta news is reporting that the Falcons are meeting today and will have a press release this evening. Stated it will probably be round 6 PM Eastern.

another press release? wonder why two in one day unless the owner is back and heads are gonna go pop.

penguinz
07-18-2007, 11:04 AM
Raising dogs for fighting, which is illegal, can not be compared to raising cattle.

ChiefsfaninPA
07-18-2007, 11:08 AM
Been listening to Sirius NFL radio all day and a few of the host and a lot of callers are saying this is being overblown and not that serious. I thought there would be more of a backlash then there has been.

MOhillbilly
07-18-2007, 11:08 AM
Raising dogs for fighting, which is illegal, can not be compared to raising cattle.

only since 1976. so by your post before that it was the same as raising cattle.

HonestChieffan
07-18-2007, 11:12 AM
I only hope those who read this incredibly bad line of reasoning do understand that those of us who do indeed raise livestock for a living do it with the greatest respect for the animals and are not in any way shape or form represented by this Moron who is trying to equate the livestock business to the reprehensible behavior of puppy mills, dog fighting and the illegitimate dog trade.

penguinz
07-18-2007, 11:14 AM
only since 1976. so by your post before that it was the same as raising cattle.
That would make the dog fighting part of it OK. The treatment of the animals is still way out of control and if you think otherwise then you are wrong.

MOhillbilly
07-18-2007, 11:16 AM
I only hope those who read this incredibly bad line of reasoning do understand that those of us who do indeed raise livestock for a living do it with the greatest respect for the animals and are not in any way shape or form represented by this Moron who is trying to equate the livestock business to the reprehensible behavior of puppy mills, dog fighting and the illegitimate dog trade.

buddy i raise live stock. poultry and cattle. and in the past hogs and rabbits aswell.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 11:17 AM
but if a man wants to brain his livestock w/a 9 iron thats his buisness be it dog,cat,goat,baby rabbits.
I disagree with that part more than anything I think I've ever read of yours.

If someone takes charge of an animal's life, be it for livestock for food or work or pet he/she is responsible for giving that animal a decent quality of life. And that includes food and shelter and humane treatment.

I'm not saying people need to play with their jersey cows with a bone, but no one has a right to abuse an animal simply because they "own" them. Period.




That's my opinion, and Mohillbilly, I'm really not trying bash you or your beliefs. Sincerely.

MOhillbilly
07-18-2007, 11:19 AM
That would make the dog fighting part of it OK. The treatment of the animals is still way out of control and if you think otherwise then you are wrong.
first you change your post. then repost something that doesnt add up.

Smed1065
07-18-2007, 11:20 AM
another press release? wonder why two in one day unless the owner is back and heads are gonna go pop.

Blank and McKay just returned from a safari hunt is what they reported.

Smed1065
07-18-2007, 11:21 AM
It is going to suck living in Atlanta this season, just because of all the coverage on this all season.

penguinz
07-18-2007, 11:22 AM
first you change your post. then repost something that doesnt add up.
What do you mean it does not add up. If dog fighting was legal before 1976 as you state then that would have been OK if the current date was before then like you suggested in the earlier response.

This does not mean it is OK to torture the animals that are being put down because the owner is a pussy.

Malcor
07-18-2007, 11:22 AM
only since 1976. so by your post before that it was the same as raising cattle.
Lovely logic here...why don't you go ahead and take it a little further back in time...bring up slave trade and see if that gets the same reaction

penguinz
07-18-2007, 11:25 AM
Lovely logic here...why don't you go ahead and take it a little further back in time...bring up slave trade and see if that gets the same reaction
Exactly

MOhillbilly
07-18-2007, 11:25 AM
I disagree with that part more than anything I think I've ever read of yours.

If someone takes charge of an animal's life, be it for livestock for food or work or pet he/she is responsible for giving that animal a decent quality of life. And that includes food and shelter and humane treatment.
I'm not saying people need to play with their jersey cows with a bone, but no one has a right to abuse an animal simply because they "own" them. Period.
That's my opinion, and Mohillbilly, I'm really not trying bash you or your beliefs. Sincerely.

private property is private.

i couldnt starve a animal,and i wouldnt be friendly w/ those who did.
but i couldnt tell him he couldnt, same as i couldnt tell a man how to raise his kids or run his house.

MOhillbilly
07-18-2007, 11:27 AM
Lovely logic here...why don't you go ahead and take it a little further back in time...bring up slave trade and see if that gets the same reaction

so dogs and people are the same?

penguinz
07-18-2007, 11:27 AM
private property is private.

i couldnt starve a animal,and i wouldnt be friendly w/ those who did.
but i couldnt tell him he couldnt, same as i couldnt tell a man how to raise his kids or run his house.And if you starve an animal then you are guilty of animal cruelty and can get prosecuted for it. how is this an argument?

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 11:30 AM
private property is private.

i couldnt starve a animal,and i wouldnt be friendly w/ those who did.
but i couldnt tell him he couldnt, same as i couldnt tell a man how to raise his kids or run his house.
I just defer to what I believe... and I said it: If someone takes charge of an animal's life for whatever reason he/she is responsible for giving that animal a decent quality of life, including food and shelter and humane treatment. "No one has a right to abuse an animal simply because they 'own' them. Period."

Ownership does not give someone a right to abuse. Not only does my own morality tell me that, but the law tells me that, too.

MOhillbilly
07-18-2007, 11:31 AM
What do you mean it does not add up. If dog fighting was legal before 1976 as you state then that would have been OK if the current date was before then like you suggested in the earlier response.

This does not mean it is OK to torture the animals that are being put down because the owner is a pussy.

what constitutes torture in your book?

do you eat chicken,beef,poultry? any idea how long it takes to raise a baby chick to eating size in big fryer operations?

42 days.

yet id bet you still eat chicken.

Lzen
07-18-2007, 11:36 AM
what constitutes torture in your book?

do you eat chicken,beef,poultry? any idea how long it takes to raise a baby chick to eating size in big fryer operations?

42 days.

yet id bet you still eat chicken.

What does raising a chicken for 42 days have to do with torture?

MOhillbilly
07-18-2007, 11:37 AM
What does raising a chicken for 42 days have to do with torture?

how long do you think it takes to range feed a chicken to frying size?

penguinz
07-18-2007, 11:38 AM
what constitutes torture in your book?

do you eat chicken,beef,poultry? any idea how long it takes to raise a baby chick to eating size in big fryer operations?

42 days.

yet id bet you still eat chicken.How many of those chickens are picked up and slammed to the ground or electrocuted in a pool of water? None. Once you bring a valid argument let me know.

Redrum_69
07-18-2007, 11:40 AM
How many of those chickens are picked up and slammed to the ground or electrocuted in a pool of water? None. Once you bring a valid argument let me know.


Are you and Gochiefs brother and sister?

Chief Faithful
07-18-2007, 11:42 AM
IF the feds can get the interstate transport law to stick & w/ the stiffer transport law signed into law this year Vick will do time.

i dont agree with the way he culled his dogs but its his PRIVATE PROPERTY and he should be able to do what he wants w/ his LIVESTOCK.

Do you drown, hang, electrocute, and bash your livestock? Do you really think as a society we should not have the right to demand that even livestock receive humane treatment even if they only exist for the slaughter?

I know many farmers who have dairy, swine, calfing, and beef operations and I have never known them to be cruel or inhumane to their livestock.

penguinz
07-18-2007, 11:43 AM
Are you and Gochiefs brother and sister?
i actually laughed at one of your posts for the first time in a long time.

To answer your question. No

MOhillbilly
07-18-2007, 11:44 AM
How many of those chickens are picked up and slammed to the ground or electrocuted in a pool of water? None. Once you bring a valid argument let me know.

someones butthurt.

it is a valid point you cant just pick and choose what you consider cruelity to animals. its either all bad(in the case of poultry plants where they are pumped full of drugs and grow so fast there legs cant support them while they sit in there own shit all day only to be draged out put on a hook by the leg have there throats cut and be sent down a line to be cut into part, still twitching) or its not at all.

penguinz
07-18-2007, 11:46 AM
someones butthurt.

it is a valid point you cant just pick and choose what you consider cruelity to animals. its either all bad(in the case of poultry plants where they are pumped full of drugs and grow so fast there legs cant support them while they sit in there own shit all day only to be draged out put on a hook by the leg have there throats cut and be sent down a line to be cut into part, still twitching) or its not at all.If you knew anything you would realize that in the US it is illegal to use growth hormones in chickens.

KC Kings
07-18-2007, 11:46 AM
Yeah, thats totally what I said.


It is easier to just go with the Mob, Vick is an aberration and should be removed from society for life, better yet we should put him in his rightful place on death row.

I'm with you, I don't see the big deal. Is it wrong? Yes. Do you have to be a sick individual to be able to drown a dog? Absolutely. But let's keep this in perspective. This is dog fighting, an event that tens of thousands of Americans participate in. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19028969/site/newsweek/ Animal abuse is a lesser crime than human abuse, (in my oppinion and looking at the max sentences in the courts oppinion as well), so there are over a million American men that are lesser humans than Vick.

Nearly one-third of American women (31 percent) report being physically or sexually abused by a husband or boyfriend at some point in their lives, according to a 1998 Commonwealth Fund survey.

Thirty percent of Americans say they know a woman who has been physically abused by her husband or boyfriend in the past year.

On average, more than three women are murdered by their husbands or boyfriends in this country every day. In 2000, 1,247 women were killed by an intimate partner. The same year, 440 men were killed by an intimate partner

Who is worse, Vick or Lionel Dalton? Nobody was looking to ban Larry Johnson after he was arrested for domestic abuse.

MOhillbilly
07-18-2007, 11:46 AM
Do you drown, hang, electrocute, and bash your livestock? Do you really think as a society we should not have the right to demand that even livestock receive humane treatment even if they only exist for the slaughter?

I know many farmers who have dairy, swine, calfing, and beef operations and I have never known them to be cruel or inhumane to their livestock.

yes i ahve hit livestock in the head w/ a hammer then cut there throat to bleed them out. ive even used a cattle prod.

DaneMcCloud
07-18-2007, 11:46 AM
private property is private.

But "Private Property" really isn't private property. You pay the government taxes to live there and all laws of the state and federal government apply. Just because you "own" the property doesn't make you exclusive to the laws of the United States.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 11:47 AM
someones butthurt.

it is a valid point you cant just pick and choose what you consider cruelity to animals. its either all bad(in the case of poultry plants where they are pumped full of drugs and grow so fast there legs cant support them while they sit in there own shit all day only to be draged out put on a hook by the leg have there throats cut and be sent down a line to be cut into part, still twitching) or its not at all.
Partly why I purchase organic, free range chicken.

MOhillbilly
07-18-2007, 11:50 AM
If you knew anything you would realize that in the US it is illegal to use growth hormones in chickens.


where did i say that? and if you know where i can get some of those 42 day fryers that can be free ranged and still produce, id like to know.

DaneMcCloud
07-18-2007, 11:50 AM
I'm with you, I don't see the big deal. Is it wrong? Yes. Do you have to be a sick individual to be able to drown a dog? Absolutely. But let's keep this in perspective. This is dog fighting, an event that tens of thousands of Americans participate in. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19028969/site/newsweek/ Animal abuse is a lesser crime than human abuse, (in my oppinion and looking at the max sentences in the courts oppinion as well), so there are over a million American men that are lesser humans than Vick.

Nearly one-third of American women (31 percent) report being physically or sexually abused by a husband or boyfriend at some point in their lives, according to a 1998 Commonwealth Fund survey.

Thirty percent of Americans say they know a woman who has been physically abused by her husband or boyfriend in the past year.

On average, more than three women are murdered by their husbands or boyfriends in this country every day. In 2000, 1,247 women were killed by an intimate partner. The same year, 440 men were killed by an intimate partner

So what's your point? Don't you think the public would have been as outraged if Vick raped, killed or tortured a woman? Didn't he pay an enormous settlement payment to the lady in which he passed a venereal disease?

This time, Vick's involved in animal cruelty. This man obviously has no regard for anyone's life but his own, be it male, female or canine.

Bringing up statistics of other crimes doesn't make this crime less relevant.

penguinz
07-18-2007, 11:50 AM
Partly why I purchase organic, free range chicken.The organic part means more than free range. For a chicken to be labeled as free range it only has to spend 10 minutes a day in a free range environment.

penguinz
07-18-2007, 11:52 AM
where did i say that?
pumped full of drugs and grow so fast there legs cant support them maybe you meant they were pumped full of silicon. ;)

MOhillbilly
07-18-2007, 11:53 AM
But "Private Property" really isn't private property. You pay the government taxes to live there and all laws of the state and federal government apply. Just because you "own" the property doesn't make you exclusive to the laws of the United States.

welcome to the socialization of The Republic.

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 11:54 AM
The organic part means more than free range. For a chicken to be labeled as free range it only has to spend 10 minutes a day in a free range environment.
I know that, and I do what I can to be an informed buyer. That's all I can do to not support an evil practice. When I am able, I purchase chicken locally at farmer's markets and such.

DaneMcCloud
07-18-2007, 11:55 AM
welcome to the socialization of The Republic.

Yeah. Welcome to 1789. :rolleyes:

Fire Me Boy!
07-18-2007, 11:55 AM
The organic part means more than free range. For a chicken to be labeled as free range it only has to spend 10 minutes a day in a free range environment.
And I know organic and free range aren't the same thing, that's why I specifically said "organic, free range chickens".

MOhillbilly
07-18-2007, 11:56 AM
pumped full of drugs and grow so fast there legs cant support them maybe you meant they were pumped full of silicon. ;)

from what i understand its a drug that makes them hungry all the time. thats why store bought chickens are so fat and the gizzards are outta whack.

Chief Faithful
07-18-2007, 11:56 AM
It is going to suck living in Atlanta this season, just because of all the coverage on this all season.

The thing I've noticed living in Atlanta is how Vick polarizes the fan base along racial lines. I'm starting to think this team and whole community would be better off if the guy did some time.

MOhillbilly
07-18-2007, 11:57 AM
Yeah. Welcome to 1789. :rolleyes:

yeah i got it:rolleyes: you think the founding fathers gave a shit?

George Washington fought rooster.

:harumph:

penguinz
07-18-2007, 12:03 PM
And I know organic and free range aren't the same thing, that's why I specifically said "organic, free range chickens".Then you know that saying organic free range is redundant. ;)

Fish
07-18-2007, 12:03 PM
It's painfully obvious some of you know exactly zero about raising livestock. There is some borderline PETA ignorance in this thread...

penguinz
07-18-2007, 12:05 PM
from what i understand its a drug that makes them hungry all the time. thats why store bought chickens are so fat and the gizzards are outta whack.
I can believe that. Still does not make cattle/chicken slaughtering the same as torturing a dog. In our society there is a very big difference in the two.

penguinz
07-18-2007, 12:05 PM
It's painfully obvious some of you know exactly zero about raising livestock. There is some borderline PETA ignorance in this thread...People for the Eating of Tasty Animals?

Chief Faithful
07-18-2007, 12:09 PM
yes i ahve hit livestock in the head w/ a hammer then cut there throat to bleed them out. ive even used a cattle prod.

Using a hammer correctly is no worse than using a gun, which is not inhumane. Have you hung your livestock? Have you body slammed a pig?

I understand your point having lived in rural communities, but you have already pointed out that society says dogs are not livestock and deserve to be treated humanely.